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Apocalypse
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611 posts
Thu Jun-07-01 08:36 AM

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"Got beef w/ Christianity?"


          

Please post every beef, problem, question, concern, or any other thought about Christ and Christianity. It'll be wonderful for my personal study and development. As a Christian, I am always interested in why people believe what they believe and what problems they have, if any, with Christianity. I'm not looking for disrespect, please save that for someone in your inner circle.

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
too many sects
Jun 07th 2001
1
RE: Got beef w/ Christianity???WHY???
Jun 07th 2001
2
RE: Got beef w/ Christianity???WHY???
Jun 07th 2001
4
-------!!!
Jun 07th 2001
3
RE: -------!!!
Jun 07th 2001
7
RE: -------!!!
Jun 07th 2001
9
      RE: -------!!!
Jun 07th 2001
10
      RE: -------!!!
Jun 07th 2001
19
           RE: -------!!!
Jun 07th 2001
21
                RE: -------!!!
Jun 07th 2001
27
                nothing conrete.
Jun 07th 2001
36
                well...
Jun 07th 2001
50
                     RE: well...
Jun 07th 2001
52
                          i've already said i'm still learning
Jun 08th 2001
130
      ethiopia
Jun 07th 2001
12
      hmmmph
Jun 07th 2001
14
      is it written?
Jun 07th 2001
17
      thanx.
Jun 07th 2001
18
      RE: is it written?
Jun 07th 2001
22
      axum.....................n/m
Jun 07th 2001
23
      RE: is it written?
Jun 07th 2001
71
           RE: is it written?
Jul 14th 2001
361
      RE: hmmmph
Jun 07th 2001
20
           i hear you there...
Jun 07th 2001
26
                RE: i hear you there...
Jun 07th 2001
28
                same here chief.
Jun 07th 2001
31
                that;s where we get tripped up
Jun 07th 2001
30
                RE: that;s where we get tripped up
Jun 07th 2001
35
                     we-ell
Jun 07th 2001
41
                          RE: we-ell
Jun 07th 2001
43
                          then please explain
Jun 08th 2001
84
                               RE: then please explain
Jun 08th 2001
96
                               RE: then please explain
Jun 08th 2001
99
                                    do u realize
Jun 13th 2001
181
                          RE: we-ell
mthompkins
Jun 08th 2001
128
                          with all due respect....
Jun 08th 2001
129
                          lmao n/m
Jun 13th 2001
182
                          why have so many
Jun 13th 2001
183
                          yeah g_love!!!
Jun 13th 2001
180
                RE: i hear you there...
mthompkins
Jun 08th 2001
122
                     the history of badfeet...
Jun 08th 2001
126
                          Pharoah heart
Jun 09th 2001
140
                          RE: Pharoah heart
Jun 11th 2001
151
                               RE: Pharoah heart
Jun 14th 2001
229
                                    RE: Pharoah heart
Jun 14th 2001
257
                                         you HAD a good arguement.........
Jun 14th 2001
259
                                         RE: you HAD a good arguement.........
Jun 14th 2001
260
                                         RE: Pharoah heart
Jun 15th 2001
269
                          RE: the history of badfeet...
mthompkins
Jun 12th 2001
162
                               i hear you.
Jun 12th 2001
167
      RE: ethiopia
Jun 15th 2001
277
      Hell?
Jun 08th 2001
107
      RE: Hell?
Jun 08th 2001
109
           RE: Hell?
Jun 09th 2001
139
                RE: Hell?
Jun 11th 2001
152
                RE: Hell?
MstrJ
Jun 18th 2001
291
      RE: -------!!!
truthwisdomluv
Jun 22nd 2001
342
interesting point...
Jun 07th 2001
15
what is up
Jun 07th 2001
5
Images
Jun 07th 2001
6
RE: Images
Jun 07th 2001
8
      RE: Images
Jun 07th 2001
66
           RE: Images
Jun 07th 2001
76
           RE: Images
mthompkins
Jun 08th 2001
123
                RE: Images
Jul 14th 2001
360
RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?
KAS19
Jun 07th 2001
11
RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?
Jun 07th 2001
24
      RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?
KAS19
Jun 07th 2001
38
           RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?
Jun 07th 2001
42
                RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?
KAS19
Jun 08th 2001
111
                     RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?
mthompkins
Jun 13th 2001
194
RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?
gnutron
Jun 07th 2001
13
RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?
Jun 07th 2001
25
RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?
g_mick
Jun 07th 2001
33
      RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?
Jun 07th 2001
37
      well now that that's been cleared up....
Jun 07th 2001
39
I want my 5% back !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jun 07th 2001
16
RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?
Jun 07th 2001
29
RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?
Jun 07th 2001
32
I do have a relationship
Jun 07th 2001
58
      RE: I do have a relationship
Jun 07th 2001
78
           RE: I do have a relationship
Jun 08th 2001
88
                RE: I do have a relationship
Jun 08th 2001
103
                     RE: I do have a relationship
Jun 08th 2001
120
hit it on the head
Jun 07th 2001
60
RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?
Jun 07th 2001
34
RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?
Jun 07th 2001
40
      RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?
Jun 07th 2001
45
           RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?
Jun 07th 2001
46
RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?
utamaroho
Jun 07th 2001
44
RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?
utamaroho
Jun 07th 2001
47
check the sig though...
utamaroho
Jun 07th 2001
48
      RE: check the sig though...
Jun 07th 2001
49
      RE: check the sig though...
Jun 07th 2001
51
the problem is this:
Jun 07th 2001
53
addendum
Jun 07th 2001
54
RE: addendum
Jun 07th 2001
56
Look at the denotative meaning
Jun 08th 2001
89
      RE: Look at the denotative meaning
Jun 08th 2001
100
felt that but........
Jun 07th 2001
55
you misunderstood me.
Jun 07th 2001
61
OK.
Jun 07th 2001
63
      *sigh*
Jun 07th 2001
67
           RE: *sigh* -ditto
Jun 08th 2001
87
                RE: *sigh* -ditto
Jun 08th 2001
131
RE: felt that but........
IllipticallyDefined
Jun 07th 2001
75
RE: felt that but........
Jun 07th 2001
79
      2 both of you.
Jun 08th 2001
90
      RE: 2 both of you.
Jun 08th 2001
92
      RE: 2 both of you.
Jun 08th 2001
104
      RE: 2 both of you.
IllipticallyDefined
Jun 08th 2001
138
      that's real too!
Jun 08th 2001
132
RE: the problem is this:
Jun 07th 2001
57
RE: the problem is this:
Jun 07th 2001
59
      RE: the problem is this:
Jun 07th 2001
62
      RE: the problem is this:
Jun 07th 2001
64
           RE: the problem is this:
Jun 07th 2001
80
           RE: the problem is this:
Jun 08th 2001
86
                RE: the problem is this:
Jun 08th 2001
93
RE: the problem is this:
Jun 07th 2001
65
RE: the problem is this:
Jun 07th 2001
68
RE: the problem is this:
Jun 07th 2001
81
RE: the problem is this:
Jul 05th 2001
353
      RE: the problem is this:
Jul 05th 2001
355
           Sacrificing animals
Jul 05th 2001
356
                RE: Sacrificing animals
Jul 13th 2001
359
RE: the problem is this:
Jun 08th 2001
98
      well, that's you.
Jun 08th 2001
134
hmmmmm
Jun 07th 2001
69
CONVERSION IS VIOLENCE
Jun 07th 2001
70
RE: CONVERSION IS VIOLENCE
Jun 07th 2001
73
      RE: CONVERSION IS VIOLENCE
Jun 07th 2001
83
      maybe God does....
Jun 13th 2001
195
      RE: CONVERSION IS VIOLENCE
Jun 08th 2001
85
      RE: CONVERSION IS VIOLENCE
Jun 08th 2001
133
      RE: CONVERSION IS VIOLENCE
Jun 12th 2001
161
RE: hmmmmm
Jun 07th 2001
72
RE: hmmmmm
Jun 07th 2001
74
RE: hmmmmm
Jun 08th 2001
94
RE: hmmmmm
Jun 07th 2001
82
I'm with you
Jun 07th 2001
77
      celsus and porphcy
Jun 08th 2001
91
i did not read all the replies
Jun 08th 2001
95
RE: i did not read all the replies
Jun 08th 2001
101
      RE: i did not read all the replies
Jun 08th 2001
105
      What!!!!
Jun 08th 2001
108
      RE: what what!! (c) N.O.R.E
Jun 08th 2001
125
      main contradiction:
Jun 13th 2001
177
           RE: OT and NT
Jun 13th 2001
189
                ok...
Jun 13th 2001
190
                     typo: "beginning answers to questions"
Jun 13th 2001
191
                     RE: ok...
Jun 13th 2001
200
                     2 different meanings
Jun 14th 2001
227
                          Sacrifice?
Jun 14th 2001
230
                               I didn't say that
Jun 17th 2001
284
                     RE: ok...
Jun 13th 2001
207
      this did nuthin to help me n/m
Jun 08th 2001
112
      can we be sure...?
Jun 13th 2001
176
My question - Dante's inferno
Jun 08th 2001
97
RE: My question - Dante's inferno
Jun 08th 2001
102
      RE: My question - Dante's inferno
Jun 08th 2001
106
           RE: My question - Dante's inferno
Jun 08th 2001
110
                RE: My question - Dante's inferno
Jun 09th 2001
141
a simple question.
Wise_7
Jun 08th 2001
113
What is with Communion?
Jun 08th 2001
114
thats rite
Jun 08th 2001
115
It's just........
Jun 08th 2001
116
RE: It's just........
Jun 08th 2001
117
i feel you.........
Jun 08th 2001
119
RE: communion
Jun 08th 2001
127
u gotta eat em,
Jun 08th 2001
118
RE: What is with Communion?
Jun 09th 2001
142
RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?
Jun 08th 2001
121
RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?
Jun 08th 2001
124
RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?
DeepThoughts
Jun 08th 2001
136
RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?
Jun 09th 2001
143
i would only disagree
Jun 13th 2001
188
RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?
DeepThoughts
Jun 08th 2001
135
RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?
Jun 09th 2001
144
RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?
Honeyy
Jun 08th 2001
137
RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?
Jun 09th 2001
145
Prophet Muhammad (saws)
Jun 11th 2001
146
Beef? Never that!!
CoolV
Jun 11th 2001
147
And now, post #72...
CoolV
Jun 11th 2001
148
Closing thoughts...(c) Jerry Springer
CoolV
Jun 11th 2001
150
      RE: Closing thoughts...(c) Jerry Springer
mthompkins
Jun 12th 2001
165
      Plenty of things I could say....
CoolV
Jun 13th 2001
174
      To Mr. Thompkins...From V.
CoolV
Jun 13th 2001
197
           the Crescent and Star
Jun 13th 2001
205
           RE: To Mr. Thompkins...From V.
mthompkins
Jun 13th 2001
211
                Definately second that . . .
Jun 13th 2001
216
                To Mr. Thompkins...From V...again.
CoolV
Jun 13th 2001
218
      RE: Closing thoughts...(c) Jerry Springer
Jun 13th 2001
210
RE: Beef? Never that!!
Jun 12th 2001
163
RE: Beef? Never that!!
Jun 12th 2001
170
there is an ......................
Jun 11th 2001
156
Hi abduhu
Jun 11th 2001
159
RE: Prophet Muhammad (saws)
Jun 12th 2001
171
a little more depth....................
Jun 13th 2001
175
      RE: a little more depth....................
CoolV
Jun 13th 2001
186
      RE: a little more depth....................
Jun 13th 2001
192
      can you prove this statement......................
Jun 13th 2001
196
      No problem:
Jun 14th 2001
233
           why was jesus sacrificed?
Jun 14th 2001
235
           RE: why was jesus sacrificed?
Jun 14th 2001
238
                RE: why was jesus sacrificed?
Jun 14th 2001
243
                     He sure did
Jun 14th 2001
246
                          RE: He sure did
Jun 14th 2001
247
                          Jesus was PREDESTINED TO DIE?
Jun 14th 2001
250
                               RE: Jesus was PREDESTINED TO DIE?
Jun 14th 2001
253
                               please explain this to..................
Jun 14th 2001
254
                               RE: please explain this to..................
Jun 14th 2001
255
                                    but you dont know for a fact......................
Jun 14th 2001
258
                                         RE: He and I discuss these topics alot
Jun 14th 2001
262
                                              RE: also......
Jun 14th 2001
264
                                                   so u believe god is so cruel
Jun 18th 2001
294
                                                        RE: God is Loving
Jun 18th 2001
313
                               compulsion, not free will
Jun 14th 2001
256
                                    RE: not compulsion
Jun 14th 2001
261
                                         and if u choose wrong...
Jun 18th 2001
296
                                              that example is confusing........
Jun 18th 2001
299
                                              it proves a lot
Jun 18th 2001
301
                                              RE: You acknowledge that there is a choice
Jun 18th 2001
316
                                                   that was funny...
Jun 19th 2001
317
                                                   etc, etc....
Jun 19th 2001
318
                               RE: Jesus was PREDESTINED TO DIE?
Jun 15th 2001
270
                                    Def. for PREDESTINATION
Jun 15th 2001
274
                                         RE: Def. for PREDESTINATION
Jun 16th 2001
281
                                              Def. for DETERMINISM
Jun 18th 2001
288
                                                   MY BAD!!!!!
Jun 18th 2001
289
                                                        RE: MY BAD!!!!!
Jun 18th 2001
307
                                                             RE: MY BAD!!!!!
Jun 19th 2001
326
                                                                  RE: MY BAD!!!!!
Jun 22nd 2001
339
                                                                       I Hate Liars.
Jun 22nd 2001
340
                                                                       RE: I Hate Liars.
Jun 23rd 2001
343
                                                                       sorry I screwed the first one up
Jun 23rd 2001
344
                                                                       RE: sorry I screwed the first one up
Jun 25th 2001
345
                                                                       Gerhard Nehls:
Jun 26th 2001
347
                                                                       about the site....................
Jun 26th 2001
348
                                                                       and again....................
Jun 27th 2001
349
                                                                       RE: and again....................
Jun 28th 2001
350
                                                                       final clarification.
Jun 28th 2001
351
           btw...............
Jun 14th 2001
236
           RE: btw...............
Jun 14th 2001
240
           about works..................
Jun 14th 2001
239
           RE: about works..................
Jun 14th 2001
241
           This was a rebuttal?????
CoolV
Jun 15th 2001
272
                I'll be waiting
Jun 18th 2001
308
      who is this prophet?
Jun 13th 2001
202
           RE: who is "the comforter"?
Jun 13th 2001
204
           RE: who is "the comforter"?
Jun 13th 2001
208
           RE: who is "the comforter"?
Jun 13th 2001
213
           RE: the comforter is the Holy Spirit
Jun 13th 2001
221
                go to this link............
Jun 14th 2001
234
                     RE: go to this link............
Jun 14th 2001
237
                          RE: go to this link............
Jun 14th 2001
242
           RE: who is this prophet?
Jun 13th 2001
206
           red letter bible
Jun 13th 2001
212
           RE: who is this prophet?
Jun 14th 2001
266
                RE: mmw
Jun 14th 2001
267
                are you kidding us?
Jun 15th 2001
271
                RE: Nope........
Jun 16th 2001
280
                     okee dokee, i got it. n/m
Jun 18th 2001
287
                The Muslims are free....................
Jun 15th 2001
273
                RE: who is this prophet?
Jun 18th 2001
302
           RE: this prophet is not Muhammed
Jun 13th 2001
222
           Jesus:
Jun 14th 2001
245
      I've wondered that myself, abduhu
Jun 13th 2001
199
RE: Prophet Muhammad (saws)
mthompkins
Jun 13th 2001
201
      I told myself I'd stay away...
Jun 13th 2001
215
      RE: I told myself I'd stay away...
mthompkins
Jun 14th 2001
228
      RE: I told myself I'd stay away...
Jun 14th 2001
231
           RE: I told myself I'd stay away...
mthompkins
Jul 13th 2001
357
      I know I said I'd stop but....
CoolV
Jun 14th 2001
224
      see #285
Jun 18th 2001
292
      RE: Prophet Muhammad (saws)
Jun 14th 2001
225
           RE: Prophet Muhammad (saws)
mthompkins
Jun 18th 2001
305
                RE: Prophet Muhammad (saws)
IllipticallyDefined
Jun 25th 2001
346
                     RE: Prophet Muhammad (saws)
mthompkins
Jul 05th 2001
352
My gripe...
Jun 11th 2001
149
RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?
Ami_Aura
Jun 11th 2001
153
The Teachings
Jun 11th 2001
154
no takers?
Jun 13th 2001
193
very interesting argument n/m
Jun 13th 2001
198
aiight......
Jun 13th 2001
203
additionally . . .
Jun 13th 2001
209
      why...
Jun 14th 2001
226
           I'm traveling . . .
Jun 17th 2001
282
           But let me say . . .
Jun 17th 2001
283
                why do you need a church?
Jun 18th 2001
293
                     RE: why do you need a church?
Jun 18th 2001
303
                          RE: why do you need a church?
mthompkins
Jun 18th 2001
306
                               The feeling's mutual . . .
Jun 18th 2001
314
                                    okay...
Jun 19th 2001
324
                                         RE: okay...
mthompkins
Jun 22nd 2001
338
RE: The Teachings
Jun 18th 2001
309
      *sigh*
Jun 19th 2001
320
Satan.
Jun 11th 2001
155
is this a trick statement.........
Jun 11th 2001
157
      I don't believe
Jun 11th 2001
158
           Hhhhhmmmmm. No takers....
CoolV
Jun 12th 2001
160
           RE: I don't believe
Jun 12th 2001
166
                no satan. no god. no sweat.
Jun 12th 2001
168
                mcbadfeet
Jun 12th 2001
172
                how is this so?
Jun 13th 2001
179
                God is enough.
Jun 13th 2001
217
                     RE: God is enough.
Jun 13th 2001
219
                          I'm not going to defend this.
Jun 14th 2001
232
                               u gotta understand...
Jun 17th 2001
285
As the great cliche goes...
Jun 12th 2001
164
It's good for all the sheople.
ish_skywalker
Jun 12th 2001
169
RE: It's good for all the sheople.
Jun 12th 2001
173
i second that........
Jun 13th 2001
185
      so sorry
ish_skywalker
Jun 14th 2001
263
           all i'm asking is........
Jun 15th 2001
278
                I do apologize
ish_skywalker
Jun 18th 2001
298
owwwie...
Jun 13th 2001
178
RE: owwwie...
Ami_Aura
Jun 13th 2001
184
      perspective
Jun 13th 2001
187
okay.
Jun 13th 2001
220
got a lil discrepancy with the "Bible"
Jun 13th 2001
214
RE: got a lil discrepancy with the "Bible"
Jun 14th 2001
244
      no contradictions in the Qur'an...................
Jun 14th 2001
249
           RE: no contradictions in the Qur'an...................
Jun 14th 2001
251
           Nothing.
Jun 14th 2001
252
           Are you sure???
Jun 15th 2001
275
seperation
Jun 13th 2001
223
Religion vs. Relationship
DreKing
Jun 14th 2001
248
RE: seperation
OmarthePoet
Jun 14th 2001
265
      What is a "pagan?"
Jun 15th 2001
276
           dontcha hate that word?
Jun 17th 2001
286
RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?
Jun 14th 2001
268
Got beef with bahai?
Jun 16th 2001
279
where were u searching?
Jun 19th 2001
328
RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?
Concept123
Jun 18th 2001
290
RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?
Jun 18th 2001
295
      huh?
Jun 18th 2001
297
           RE: huh?
Jun 18th 2001
300
                aha
Jun 18th 2001
304
                RE: huh?
Concept123
Jun 18th 2001
310
                     RE: huh?
Jun 18th 2001
311
                          RE: huh?
oni1111
Jun 18th 2001
312
                          Quick Question . . .
Jun 18th 2001
315
                          RE: huh?
Concept123
Jun 20th 2001
330
                               Do me a favor . . .
Jun 21st 2001
331
                                    devil's advocate...
Jun 21st 2001
333
                                         RE: devil's advocate...
Jun 21st 2001
336
                                              yeah I feel u
Jun 22nd 2001
337
on the origins of christianity.....................
Jun 19th 2001
319
yup...and,
Jun 19th 2001
321
nope,....and,
Jun 19th 2001
322
      I'm gonna let this go...
Jun 19th 2001
323
           i am too....for real
Jun 19th 2001
325
i think...
Jun 19th 2001
327
RE: these views arent contrasting
Jun 20th 2001
329
      good point, now explain this:
Jun 21st 2001
332
           RE: sure
Jun 21st 2001
334
                okaysee waysee. got it. n/m
Jun 21st 2001
335
RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?
truthwisdomluv
Jun 22nd 2001
341
My questions.
Jul 05th 2001
354
I cannot believe this conversation is ...
CoolV
Jul 13th 2001
358

AZ
Charter member
12930 posts
Thu Jun-07-01 08:40 AM

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1. "too many sects"
In response to Reply # 0


          

and they vary a great amount. So there's no real Christian ideology. What's the deal?






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Carpe Diem: Seize the day. Carpe Dikembe: Seize Hollywood!" - Pat Croce, Sixers Pres.

  

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HashimAbdulKhaliq
Charter member
751 posts
Thu Jun-07-01 08:42 AM

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2. "RE: Got beef w/ Christianity???WHY???"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Just wondering why you posted this? Can you please elaborate?

I am Muslim and most of my family is Christian so I jus wanna know what has led you to this.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenship
into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword.

It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind.
And w

  

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Apocalypse
Charter member
611 posts
Thu Jun-07-01 08:49 AM

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4. "RE: Got beef w/ Christianity???WHY???"
In response to Reply # 2


          

Just curious, sometimes people raise good points that challenge me to study to find an answer to. Also, it *SEEMS* that Christianity is often attacked by most people, especially many intellictual blacks without really understanding what it's about and that doesn't seem too fair, so I just wanted to hear what people had to say. The posts seem to be coming quickly, so I must be on to something. . .

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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mcbadfeet
Charter member
1066 posts
Thu Jun-07-01 08:46 AM

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3. "-------!!!"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Why do black Christians refuse to acknowledge that by believing that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation, that they must also believe that slavery here and colonialism in Africa must have been worth it so that we could all be introduced to this glorious God that our unfortunate ancestor were ignorant of.


'Twas mercy brought me from my pagan land....MY ASS.
________________________________________
-representin the real since tuesday
-illified illustrated.word.fresh.

FROM THE GROUND UP- ROOTS 2nd CD- BUY NOW: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000073F6/qid=989953006/sr=1-1/202-6163542-0903066


OKAY...now i am recognizin that the choice to rhyme for self is urgin me to to put the wealth not quite as high upon the shelf/ for me wisdom is decisions made aside from what ya'll like/ so just clean up all of your ears/ these are my views and you will find that/we revolutionize it with the kick and the snare.....(c)thisghettovocalist

MY LATEST RAP ALIASES- mcbadfeet aka: the mayor goldie wilson of rap, aka big chris the juicebox, aka jesus jones retired messiah, aka the black jamie lawson of rap, aka thurgood killabitch the IV, aka brooklyn jackson from queens, aka homer pimpson, aka alex p. cheatin, aka benny ill, aka stank sinatra, aka michael j. rocks

  

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Apocalypse
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Thu Jun-07-01 09:02 AM

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7. "RE: -------!!!"
In response to Reply # 3


          

Partly because Christianity was not started by white people. The staple of the history of Christianity was Africa and the middle east and that there are plenty of Christians in Africa and other regions of the world that have never been to America. White people are not the message carriers of Christianity. I've been to Africa and seen the deep Christian roots, dating back to the Early Church. As far as Christ being the only way to salvation, every statement he made was an all or nothing statement. If he's not the only way, then his whole ministry was a hoax and everything that he said was a lie because his statements and actions were predicated on that fact.

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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mcbadfeet
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Thu Jun-07-01 09:25 AM

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9. "RE: -------!!!"
In response to Reply # 7


          

>Partly because Christianity was not started
>by white people. The staple
>of the history of Christianity
>was Africa and the middle
>east.

You are half right here. I am aware that europeans didn't create Christianity. They just happen to love it so much. Africa had a small influence on some Christianity if any at all, the story of Holy trinity and the story of ressurection mirror Egytian myths of Isis, Osiris and Horus. Im slightly familiar with the Coptic church if this is what you are refering to.

There are
>plenty of Christians in Africa
>and other regions of the
>world that have never been
>to America.

O.K. and would you care to trace the paths of missionaries to these places.

White people are
>not the message carriers of
>Christianity.

Ok. now thats just silly.


I've been to Africa
>and seen the deep Christian
>roots, dating back to the
>Early Church.

Ok. now this is where examples should be listed.

As far as
>Christ being the only way
>to salvation, every statement he
>made was an all or
>nothing statement. If he's not
>the only way, then his
>whole ministry was a hoax
>and everything that he said
>was a lie because his
>statements and actions were predicated
>on that fact.

Exactamundo. Christianity is 2000 years old. The truth is a little older than that Apocalypse. I can't see how anyone with a functioning mind would of their own free will choose to believe that Hell is home to the souls of 97% of the human beings to ever exist on this planet- because they were born in the wrong place or space in time. ??????



What about when purpose is fabricated to abuse?

________________________________________
-representin the real since tuesday
-illified illustrated.word.fresh.

FROM THE GROUND UP- ROOTS 2nd CD- BUY NOW: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000073F6/qid=989953006/sr=1-1/202-6163542-0903066


OKAY...now i am recognizin that the choice to rhyme for self is urgin me to to put the wealth not quite as high upon the shelf/ for me wisdom is decisions made aside from what ya'll like/ so just clean up all of your ears/ these are my views and you will find that/we revolutionize it with the kick and the snare.....(c)thisghettovocalist

MY LATEST RAP ALIASES- mcbadfeet aka: the mayor goldie wilson of rap, aka big chris the juicebox, aka jesus jones retired messiah, aka the black jamie lawson of rap, aka thurgood killabitch the IV, aka brooklyn jackson from queens, aka homer pimpson, aka alex p. cheatin, aka benny ill, aka stank sinatra, aka michael j. rocks

  

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REDeye
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Thu Jun-07-01 09:38 AM

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10. "RE: -------!!!"
In response to Reply # 9


          

>Exactamundo. Christianity is 2000 years old.
>The truth is a little
>older than that Apocalypse. I
>can't see how anyone with
>a functioning mind would of
>their own free will choose
>to believe that Hell is
>home to the souls of
>97% of the human beings
>to ever exist on this
>planet- because they were born
>in the wrong place or
>space in time. ??????

Hell notwithstanding, Christ said nothing about there being no truth before He became flesh.

As a matter of fact, I don't recall Him saying anything about going to hell. He just spoke about going to heaven. I could be wrong though.


RED
I'm like that guy who used a pointed stick instead of a rock.

RED
http://arrena.blogspot.com

  

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Apocalypse
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Thu Jun-07-01 11:23 AM

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19. "RE: -------!!!"
In response to Reply # 10


          

There is a lot more to the hell issue that i can discuss, but not particularly in the post. email me at hortoninc@hotmail.com and we can really build. Oh yeah, Jesus was not the beginning of truth, just the embodiment of it (John 14:6).

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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mcbadfeet
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Thu Jun-07-01 11:31 AM

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21. "RE: -------!!!"
In response to Reply # 19


          

>There is a lot more to
>the hell issue that i
>can discuss, but not particularly
>in the post.email me
>at hortoninc@hotmail.com and we can
>really build.

Not directed at me, still I wonder why not in the post.

Oh yeah, Jesus
>was not the beginning of
>truth, just the embodiment of
>it (John 14:6).

For arguments sake, if Jesus was/is the embodiment of the truth, then why demonstrate this truth to such a small portion of the population. People all over the world have never even heard of Jesus through no fault of their own.


>Apocalypse
>
>"When purpose is not known, abuse
>is inevitable . . ."
>


________________________________________
-representin the real since tuesday
-illified illustrated.word.fresh.

FROM THE GROUND UP- ROOTS 2nd CD- BUY NOW: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000073F6/qid=989953006/sr=1-1/202-6163542-0903066


OKAY...now i am recognizin that the choice to rhyme for self is urgin me to to put the wealth not quite as high upon the shelf/ for me wisdom is decisions made aside from what ya'll like/ so just clean up all of your ears/ these are my views and you will find that/we revolutionize it with the kick and the snare.....(c)thisghettovocalist

MY LATEST RAP ALIASES- mcbadfeet aka: the mayor goldie wilson of rap, aka big chris the juicebox, aka jesus jones retired messiah, aka the black jamie lawson of rap, aka thurgood killabitch the IV, aka brooklyn jackson from queens, aka homer pimpson, aka alex p. cheatin, aka benny ill, aka stank sinatra, aka michael j. rocks

  

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Apocalypse
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Thu Jun-07-01 11:51 AM

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27. "RE: -------!!!"
In response to Reply # 21


          

>For arguments sake, if Jesus was/is
>the embodiment of the truth,
>then why demonstrate this truth
>to such a small portion
>of the population. People all
>over the world have never
>even heard of Jesus through
>no fault of their own.

True indeed, but that's the point of mission work, which many people of various ethnic backgrounds are doing daily and many are losing their life for it. I've been overseas a couple of times on mission work and America has the most watered down faith, partly because we are so "modern". I'm not against being modern, having wealth or anything like that, but when you have it all you tend to feel you don't need God. What is your reference point that lets you determine how widespread or limited the message of Christ is? Just curious.


Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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mcbadfeet
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Thu Jun-07-01 12:19 PM

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36. "nothing conrete."
In response to Reply # 27


          

I just watch PBS and read National Geographic. The base of my argument is that people have lived and are living now productive lives without the introduction of foreign influences, whether they be missionaries or Nike factories. I can't understand how anyone can trek through an amazon rainforest, observe human beings existing in a culture thats been workin for them for millenia and think "All right...now all they need is little Jesus." Like they haven't figured out life for themselves yet. They just been killin time waitin for Jesus to show up, and get the ball rollin, so some missionaries can get word to their descendants some 2000 years later. No way. How can can Jesus be better? BETTER?!?!?
____________________________________
-representin the real since tuesday
-illified illustrated.word.fresh.

FROM THE GROUND UP- ROOTS 2nd CD- BUY NOW: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000073F6/qid=989953006/sr=1-1/202-6163542-0903066


OKAY...now i am recognizin that the choice to rhyme for self is urgin me to to put the wealth not quite as high upon the shelf/ for me wisdom is decisions made aside from what ya'll like/ so just clean up all of your ears/ these are my views and you will find that/we revolutionize it with the kick and the snare.....(c)thisghettovocalist

MY LATEST RAP ALIASES- mcbadfeet aka: the mayor goldie wilson of rap, aka big chris the juicebox, aka jesus jones retired messiah, aka the black jamie lawson of rap, aka thurgood killabitch the IV, aka brooklyn jackson from queens, aka homer pimpson, aka alex p. cheatin, aka benny ill, aka stank sinatra, aka michael j. rocks

  

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loryn
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Thu Jun-07-01 01:11 PM

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50. "well..."
In response to Reply # 21


  

          


>For arguments sake, if Jesus was/is
>the embodiment of the truth,
>then why demonstrate this truth
>to such a small portion
>of the population. People all
>over the world have never
>even heard of Jesus through
>no fault of their own.
>

While the Bible does say that everyone will be held accountable for their salvation or lack thereof (ie, everyone will have a chance to accept Christ), I do think that God will have mercy on those who just didn't get the chance. (like in micronesia and ish)

in the end times there will be those who stay on earth and preach the gospel.

that will be the time when those who did not accept Jesus before will have a chance.

-Loryn

"There's a new day comin (it look just like me)
the sun bursts through the cloud (my photo id)"-mos def

"i stopped combing my brain so my thoughts could lock"-saul williams

ask away http://www.formspring.me/elledub

http://www.loryncwilson.com

tweet me up: @elledub_1920

  

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mcbadfeet
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Thu Jun-07-01 01:24 PM

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52. "RE: well..."
In response to Reply # 50


          


>While the Bible does say that
>everyone will be held accountable
>for their salvation or lack
>thereof (ie, everyone will have
>a chance to accept Christ),
>I do think that God
>will have mercy on those
>who just didn't get the
>chance. (like in micronesia and
>ish)

You know what? With all DUE respect, mutherfuck a God that would make those kinds of "choices."


>in the end times there will
>be those who stay on
>earth and preach the gospel.

Why would anyone listen to what you consider "the truth" when it doesn't sound any different from what you consider "lies." Why would one chose to believe in system based on hollow rewards and sadistic punishment meeted out by a egomaniac in the sky, just because it's an option. If God want's heaven stocked with his folks, he needs to cut all this shy bullshit and set up a press conference.

>that will be the time when
>those who did not accept
>Jesus before will have a
>chance.


Lucky them.

I really don't mean to offend you, but (and you knew there was a but) this stuff is insane to me.
________________________________________
-representin the real since tuesday
-illified illustrated.word.fresh.

FROM THE GROUND UP- ROOTS 2nd CD- BUY NOW: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000073F6/qid=989953006/sr=1-1/202-6163542-0903066


OKAY...now i am recognizin that the choice to rhyme for self is urgin me to to put the wealth not quite as high upon the shelf/ for me wisdom is decisions made aside from what ya'll like/ so just clean up all of your ears/ these are my views and you will find that/we revolutionize it with the kick and the snare.....(c)thisghettovocalist

MY LATEST RAP ALIASES- mcbadfeet aka: the mayor goldie wilson of rap, aka big chris the juicebox, aka jesus jones retired messiah, aka the black jamie lawson of rap, aka thurgood killabitch the IV, aka brooklyn jackson from queens, aka homer pimpson, aka alex p. cheatin, aka benny ill, aka stank sinatra, aka michael j. rocks

  

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loryn
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130. "i've already said i'm still learning"
In response to Reply # 52


  

          

i hope that you can at least accept that.

i didn't say my opinion was right.

i said it was an opinion.

-loryn

there's a new day comin(it looks just like me)
the sun bursts through the clouds(my photo id)-mos def

i stopped combing my brain so my thoughts could lock-saul williams

ask away http://www.formspring.me/elledub

http://www.loryncwilson.com

tweet me up: @elledub_1920

  

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guerilla_love
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Thu Jun-07-01 10:09 AM

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12. "ethiopia"
In response to Reply # 9


          

the history of christianity in ethiopia goes back way before missionaries and has nothing to do with italy beyond the pope blessing the italian troops to fight the ethiopian troops

but the ark of the covenant is in ethiopia


==**peace**==

"The logic of divide and rule is still valid today." Capleton

DomePoem Poets; Vibe Nation; One ppl under the spoken word

.....

"Who need fossil fuel when the sun ain't goin' nowhere"
- Amiri Baraka

http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines

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mcbadfeet
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Thu Jun-07-01 10:20 AM

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14. "hmmmph"
In response to Reply # 12


          

Those of us interested in learning more about Christianity in Ethiopa should read __________________?


________________________________________
-representin the real since tuesday
-illified illustrated.word.fresh.

FROM THE GROUND UP- ROOTS 2nd CD- BUY NOW: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000073F6/qid=989953006/sr=1-1/202-6163542-0903066


OKAY...now i am recognizin that the choice to rhyme for self is urgin me to to put the wealth not quite as high upon the shelf/ for me wisdom is decisions made aside from what ya'll like/ so just clean up all of your ears/ these are my views and you will find that/we revolutionize it with the kick and the snare.....(c)thisghettovocalist

MY LATEST RAP ALIASES- mcbadfeet aka: the mayor goldie wilson of rap, aka big chris the juicebox, aka jesus jones retired messiah, aka the black jamie lawson of rap, aka thurgood killabitch the IV, aka brooklyn jackson from queens, aka homer pimpson, aka alex p. cheatin, aka benny ill, aka stank sinatra, aka michael j. rocks

  

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guerilla_love
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Thu Jun-07-01 10:57 AM

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17. "is it written?"
In response to Reply # 14


          

my husband and i met an american biblical scholar who suspected the king soloman queen sheba connection (thus selassie=son of judah) from his readings- that was crazy to us because that's something that is common knowledge among ethiopians-

let's see.... the ark is in lalibela, so if you find any books written on lalibela they should mention much of the history

the problem, as with much of african history, is that the history was mostly *written down* by white people (even though ethiopia has its own written language), and ethiopia, being the one country in africa that was never colonized, has never been to eager to let white people in. which is why the ark of the covenant is only "said to be in ethiopia", meaning that what is common knowledge to ethiopians and only glimpsed by monks who've been strictly trained is nothing but suspicians to teh history writing public

nonetheless, the ethiopian scripture is available (but out of print and extremely difficult to get a hold of) in english. two of my friends have copies. i'll double check the name with my husband and then see where they found theirs.

in the meantime, if anyone knows a source, feel free to list it.

there was a howard university professor who made a pilgrimage to lalibela. i think he was told something that he shouldn't have been, being an outsider, and it made it onto a documentary about his trip. but, of course, the slip up is in amharic, and only some people are willing to translate it....

this, quite honestly, is a good time to question your ethiopian friends....


==**peace**==

"The logic of divide and rule is still valid today." Capleton

DomePoem Poets; Vibe Nation; One ppl under the spoken word

.....

"Who need fossil fuel when the sun ain't goin' nowhere"
- Amiri Baraka

http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines

BUY MY BOOK- only $6! Inbox me for details

  

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mcbadfeet
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Thu Jun-07-01 10:59 AM

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18. "thanx."
In response to Reply # 17


          

somebody in here is going for extra credit.
_______________________________________
-representin the real since tuesday
-illified illustrated.word.fresh.

FROM THE GROUND UP- ROOTS 2nd CD- BUY NOW: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000073F6/qid=989953006/sr=1-1/202-6163542-0903066


OKAY...now i am recognizin that the choice to rhyme for self is urgin me to to put the wealth not quite as high upon the shelf/ for me wisdom is decisions made aside from what ya'll like/ so just clean up all of your ears/ these are my views and you will find that/we revolutionize it with the kick and the snare.....(c)thisghettovocalist

MY LATEST RAP ALIASES- mcbadfeet aka: the mayor goldie wilson of rap, aka big chris the juicebox, aka jesus jones retired messiah, aka the black jamie lawson of rap, aka thurgood killabitch the IV, aka brooklyn jackson from queens, aka homer pimpson, aka alex p. cheatin, aka benny ill, aka stank sinatra, aka michael j. rocks

  

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AZ
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Thu Jun-07-01 11:34 AM

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22. "RE: is it written?"
In response to Reply # 17


          

I thought the ark was in some place called Axel(sp) Ethiopia?

  

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guerilla_love
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Thu Jun-07-01 11:35 AM

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23. "axum.....................n/m"
In response to Reply # 22


          

==**peace**==

"The logic of divide and rule is still valid today." Capleton

DomePoem Poets; Vibe Nation; One ppl under the spoken word

.....

"Who need fossil fuel when the sun ain't goin' nowhere"
- Amiri Baraka

http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines

BUY MY BOOK- only $6! Inbox me for details

  

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shwin
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Thu Jun-07-01 03:22 PM

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71. "RE: is it written?"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

the ark is supposedly in axum

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NYU

  

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Void
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Sat Jul-14-01 09:01 AM

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361. "RE: is it written?"
In response to Reply # 71


          

it is in axum. read the KEBRE NEGAST and the Sign and THe Seal for some insight.

  

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Apocalypse
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Thu Jun-07-01 11:28 AM

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20. "RE: hmmmph"
In response to Reply # 14


          

If you correlate the writings of Scripture and study the lands that are mentioned, almost all of them are in Africa and the Middle East. Any Encyclopedia, Bible Dictionary, etc. will give you these correlations, but you must be willing to dig. Also, there is a Book called "Blacks in the Bible". I left the book at my parent's house, but I can get you the author's name if you'd like. i would also suggest that a person study the Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic text, either through a Septuigent or Greek and Hebrew Dictionaries. You'll unearth a wealth of true understanding concerning scripture and many points of contention.

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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mcbadfeet
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Thu Jun-07-01 11:50 AM

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26. "i hear you there..."
In response to Reply # 20


          

It does seem that there are more people who are willing to argue for or against Christianity based on the most generally accepted interpretations of the Bible, than there are people who will takes steps to unearth further meaning through personal research (my self included). So you get props on that end. Still, the big J aint for me. There is alot of stuff in the Bible worth building on...but it aint the only way, the best way, or the main way.
________________________________________
-representin the real since tuesday
-illified illustrated.word.fresh.

FROM THE GROUND UP- ROOTS 2nd CD- BUY NOW: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000073F6/qid=989953006/sr=1-1/202-6163542-0903066


OKAY...now i am recognizin that the choice to rhyme for self is urgin me to to put the wealth not quite as high upon the shelf/ for me wisdom is decisions made aside from what ya'll like/ so just clean up all of your ears/ these are my views and you will find that/we revolutionize it with the kick and the snare.....(c)thisghettovocalist

MY LATEST RAP ALIASES- mcbadfeet aka: the mayor goldie wilson of rap, aka big chris the juicebox, aka jesus jones retired messiah, aka the black jamie lawson of rap, aka thurgood killabitch the IV, aka brooklyn jackson from queens, aka homer pimpson, aka alex p. cheatin, aka benny ill, aka stank sinatra, aka michael j. rocks

  

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Apocalypse
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Thu Jun-07-01 11:53 AM

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28. "RE: i hear you there..."
In response to Reply # 26


          

i have nothing but love and respect for you, regardless of whether or not we agree.

Peace

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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mcbadfeet
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Thu Jun-07-01 12:08 PM

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31. "same here chief."
In response to Reply # 28


          


________________________________________
-representin the real since tuesday
-illified illustrated.word.fresh.

FROM THE GROUND UP- ROOTS 2nd CD- BUY NOW: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000073F6/qid=989953006/sr=1-1/202-6163542-0903066


OKAY...now i am recognizin that the choice to rhyme for self is urgin me to to put the wealth not quite as high upon the shelf/ for me wisdom is decisions made aside from what ya'll like/ so just clean up all of your ears/ these are my views and you will find that/we revolutionize it with the kick and the snare.....(c)thisghettovocalist

MY LATEST RAP ALIASES- mcbadfeet aka: the mayor goldie wilson of rap, aka big chris the juicebox, aka jesus jones retired messiah, aka the black jamie lawson of rap, aka thurgood killabitch the IV, aka brooklyn jackson from queens, aka homer pimpson, aka alex p. cheatin, aka benny ill, aka stank sinatra, aka michael j. rocks

  

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guerilla_love
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Thu Jun-07-01 12:03 PM

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30. "that;s where we get tripped up"
In response to Reply # 26


          

the big J

also the bad things happening to bad people crap

and some other things

and most of the side effects of the christian value system

gimme some good old fashioned spirituality any day over all this chauvenistic crap

but nonetheless, christian history is something to be proud of for east africans that is ridiculously claimed by westerners

i mean, for real, westerners thing egyptions are white. HELLO!?!?!!?


==**peace**==

"The logic of divide and rule is still valid today." Capleton

DomePoem Poets; Vibe Nation; One ppl under the spoken word

.....

"Who need fossil fuel when the sun ain't goin' nowhere"
- Amiri Baraka

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Apocalypse
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35. "RE: that;s where we get tripped up"
In response to Reply # 30


          

>and most of the side effects
>of the christian value system

Please define this for me.

>i mean, for real, westerners thing
>egyptions are white. HELLO!?!?!!?

I agree, word.

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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guerilla_love
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41. "we-ell"
In response to Reply # 35


          

i don't know enuf about christiuanity to be able to explain why it's followers tend to be so f*ed up in terms of value/work, but i believe those two are related

what i can explain a little better is this emphasis on the good bad dichotomy and primary assumption that all beings are imperfect and could never be perfect. oh and the assumption that sex is dirty (hello?! sex is what this species uses to KEEP ITSELF ALIVE!! it's one of the most natural of human functions! why the hell would ya wanna go and start a damned complex about one of the most basic of human functions?!?!? and then say our children are born dirty as a result of this horrible act??!!?!?! keep your damned religion AWAY from my kids. because they're born perfect)

ok, i just went a little overboard there, but i suspect i kinda addressed my point in the process, so i'll stop-


==**peace**==

"The logic of divide and rule is still valid today." Capleton

DomePoem Poets; Vibe Nation; One ppl under the spoken word

.....

"Who need fossil fuel when the sun ain't goin' nowhere"
- Amiri Baraka

http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines

BUY MY BOOK- only $6! Inbox me for details

  

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Apocalypse
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Thu Jun-07-01 12:30 PM

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43. "RE: we-ell"
In response to Reply # 41


          

Who said sex was dirty? I have a son and I contributed greatly to him being here (smile)! You proved my point, you said that you don't know enough about Christianity to know why it's so messed up. So why pass judgement on something you're not well-versed in before dismissing it. You were wrong in your assumption the we believe sex is dirty (or that's what seems to be implyed, correct me if I'm wrong).

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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guerilla_love
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84. "then please explain"
In response to Reply # 43


          

baptism to me in your own way

i never said that i didn't know enuf about christianity to make that statement

and please define "original sin" for me


==**peace**==

"The logic of divide and rule is still valid today." Capleton

DomePoem Poets; Vibe Nation; One ppl under the spoken word

.....

"Who need fossil fuel when the sun ain't goin' nowhere"
- Amiri Baraka

http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines

BUY MY BOOK- only $6! Inbox me for details

  

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osoclasi
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Fri Jun-08-01 07:15 AM

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96. "RE: then please explain"
In response to Reply # 84


          

>baptism to me in your own
>way

Responce: I don't know if you want me to answer this. I'm just floating down the page and noticed your question. Baptism is an outward responce to what is going on in the inside. Its showing the world that you have been bought with a price. That you are now a believer and you are living according to Christ.
>
>and please define "original sin" for
>me

Responce : Scripture makes it clear that the original sin of man kind was disobediance. It was no longer God's will be done it became our will be done.
>
>

------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

  

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Apocalypse
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Fri Jun-08-01 07:25 AM

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99. "RE: then please explain"
In response to Reply # 84


          

First, I don't mean any disrespect to you, you dig?

Baptism is an outward showing of an inward commitment and change. The symbolism is the going under signifies the "old man" that you were and the coming out of the water signifies the "new man" that you are. Now . . .

You DO NOT have to be baptized to be saved! Just like you don't have to wear a wedding ring to be married. It is an outward sign of an inward occurance. Baptism comes from the greek word baptizo, which means to be immmersed/submerged. Washing was often done by Jews using immersion, hence the cultural significance. Baptism was continued by the early church, but was not something that would keep people out of relationship with Christ, but it was considered very important. It was a sign of your willingness to publically confess Christ, because keep in mind that Christians were being martyred for their belief then (and many now in other countries). There were numerous people throughout the Gospels that came into relationship with Christ without baptism (the Sarophynecian woman in Matthew 15, The woman at the well in John 4, etc.). But it is a consensus that if you have accepted Jesus, you would get baptized, just like if you ask a woman to marry you, you will get her an engagement ring, though there is no power orability in the water or the ring.

Original sin takes some explaining, meaning in the basic sense we can talk about Adam and Eve in the garden with the pomogranate, the serpent, etc. but for some reason, I don't think you're buying that simple of an explaination. When I have more time, possibly this weekend I can elaborate further (I've got work to do now). My email is hortoninc@hotmail.com. Send me your email address and I'll give you somemore info. Also give me specifically what you want me to respond to.

Peace

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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LexM
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Wed Jun-13-01 04:10 AM

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181. "do u realize"
In response to Reply # 99


  

          

that you are NOT answering like the average church-going Christian?

Or even the average preacher/reverend?

You don't know how many times I've heard of people going thru hell & highwater (no pun intended) to be "saved" when all I learned when I was younger (Lutheran) was that u needed to believe in God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (& maybe some Roman Catholic saints). And even *I* may have gotten the message wrong...who knows???

My point is: there are a LOT of people out there saying a LOT of shit.

You almost make Christianity sound attractive. Most Christians make it look like a farce.



~~~SPITFIRE: AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
HipHop. Old school style. In Full Effect. Want Info? Email: carameldom@hotmail.com

http://www.welcome.to/okaypoets (u ain't a real okayplayer if u ain't been here)

"cats pop champagne/over misery and pain/like slaves on the ship/talkin 'bout/who got the flyest chains" ~~Talib Kweli

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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mthompkins

Fri Jun-08-01 12:06 PM

  
128. "RE: we-ell"
In response to Reply # 41


          

I am a Christian. All I can tell you is what the bible says about sex. Sex in and of itself is not dirty because God created sex. But the bible says that sex was created for marriage. So when people, who are not married have sex, according to the bible they are using sex for something it was not intended for. So I don't know who told you that sex was dirty. Hopefully they meant outside of marriage. But in marriage, sex is beautiful. It is a earthly symbolic representation of what happens when man and God are one. When the penis goes into that woman's vagina, it fills it up. The woman's vagina actually takes the shape of the man's penis so that everytime they have sex it's a perfect fit. This is how God wanted to fill man's spirit. To occupy his spirit supporting it with Himself so that in the spirit man is completely filled with God's presence like a woman's vagina is filled with a man's penis.
But this oneness only happens in marriage. Because as a man goes from one girlfriend to the next, her vagina still has the same shape of her last boyfriend's penis. So when you go into her, she still feel spaces in her vagina that you can't fill because your penis is shaped differently from the last guys. This is why God only wanted us to have sex with one person in marriage. So that a man's wife, her vagina will only take the shape of his penis and they can feel true ectasy because they are jointly fit for each other. And since God created sex, He likes to be present when a man has sex with his wife. There is nothing he can do for the couple in the flesh because He is a spirit. But while a husband and wife are enjoying fleshly pleasure, the presence of God can give them spiritual pleasure as well. This is what true sex is all about. But God's presence will never be with people who are having sex outside of marriage. And so they may enjoy the sex for that 20 minutes are so, but after that. That's it. This is why so many men have to have sex with more than one woman. Trying to find that lay that will blow your mind. But you never find it until you use sex for what God created it for, and that's marriage.
To prove my point, a lot of people have a problem with having sex only in marriage. But let me ask you this, if everyone only had sex with the person they were married too, and no one else. Waiting till they got married to have sex, where would AIDs be? How about STDs? How about murders? People who have gotten killed because they had sex with someone else's wife? Where would all this be if people did what God asked us to do? It would be none existence. STD's would be none existence. But because man chooses to do his will and not God's, what we have is chaos. So this is why Christians believe in marriage, sex is holy and pure because God is in it, but outside of marriage God in not there.

  

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mcbadfeet
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129. "with all due respect...."
In response to Reply # 128


          

you are full of what I like to call "the shit."
________________________________________
-representin the real since tuesday
-illified illustrated.word.fresh.

FROM THE GROUND UP- ROOTS 2nd CD- BUY NOW: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000073F6/qid=989953006/sr=1-1/202-6163542-0903066


OKAY...now i am recognizin that the choice to rhyme for self is urgin me to to put the wealth not quite as high upon the shelf/ for me wisdom is decisions made aside from what ya'll like/ so just clean up all of your ears/ these are my views and you will find that/we revolutionize it with the kick and the snare.....(c)thisghettovocalist

MY LATEST RAP ALIASES- mcbadfeet aka: the mayor goldie wilson of rap, aka big chris the juicebox, aka jesus jones retired messiah, aka the black jamie lawson of rap, aka thurgood killabitch the IV, aka brooklyn jackson from queens, aka homer pimpson, aka alex p. cheatin, aka benny ill, aka stank sinatra, aka michael j. rocks

  

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LexM
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182. "lmao n/m"
In response to Reply # 129


  

          

~~~SPITFIRE: AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
HipHop. Old school style. In Full Effect. Want Info? Email: carameldom@hotmail.com

http://www.welcome.to/okaypoets (u ain't a real okayplayer if u ain't been here)

"cats pop champagne/over misery and pain/like slaves on the ship/talkin 'bout/who got the flyest chains" ~~Talib Kweli

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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LexM
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Wed Jun-13-01 04:24 AM

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183. "why have so many"
In response to Reply # 128


  

          

taken it a step further (think Victorian era) and said sex is dirty/wrong even INSIDE marriage?

I am soooo sick of that line of thinking. Why do you need to justify so thoroughly the enjoyment of sex??? The unity of two people, when done in LOVE--in or out of marriage--is, to me, a beautiful thing, created by God and not "sinful" at all.

And I'm sorry, but that comment about STDs and AIDS is almost as bad as that post HotThyng put up the other day. e.g., "Those BAD people deserve those BAD diseases because they did this DIRTY thing" outside of YOUR covenant.

It ain't all that cut & dry.



~~~SPITFIRE: AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
HipHop. Old school style. In Full Effect. Want Info? Email: carameldom@hotmail.com

http://www.welcome.to/okaypoets (u ain't a real okayplayer if u ain't been here)

"cats pop champagne/over misery and pain/like slaves on the ship/talkin 'bout/who got the flyest chains" ~~Talib Kweli

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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LexM
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Wed Jun-13-01 04:04 AM

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180. "yeah g_love!!!"
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

speak on it!!

and honestly, for a religion that believes that, I don't know how the Song of Solomon got in there...




~~~SPITFIRE: AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
HipHop. Old school style. In Full Effect. Want Info? Email: carameldom@hotmail.com

http://www.welcome.to/okaypoets (u ain't a real okayplayer if u ain't been here)

"cats pop champagne/over misery and pain/like slaves on the ship/talkin 'bout/who got the flyest chains" ~~Talib Kweli

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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mthompkins

Fri Jun-08-01 09:25 AM

  
122. "RE: i hear you there..."
In response to Reply # 26


          

Hey McBadfeet,
You have some rough words for Christianity and God. I was wondering if you believe in God. I was also wondering if you believed in evolution. Let me know what it is you believe. Did you go to a Christian church growing up? Has anyone ever approached you personally and told you that you're a sinner and your going to hell? Sometimes people can judge you for what you believe without ever finding out why you believe what you believe. So I just wanted to know why you believe what you believe and if anything ever happened in your past that turned you off from Christianity(that is, if you were ever turned on to it in the first place). I know a muslim woman who no longer believes in Christ because a Christian preacher touched her breast when she was 13. I know children of missionaries that won't set foot in a church because they grew up poor never having nothing because their parents spent all their money funding missions. So I was wondering if something offensive happened to you. Peace!

  

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mcbadfeet
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Fri Jun-08-01 10:47 AM

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126. "the history of badfeet..."
In response to Reply # 122


          

Born in chicago to two psuedo-revolutionaries (i use this term with affection. most revolutionaries were pseudo) way back in 1979. My father was born into a country Christian family from Missippi. My pops had like a 140+ iq and as family legend goes he had alot of the Bible commited to memory as a child (not neccessarily by choice). My moms grew up in Church too, but like many who leave the Church, she was frustrated in her youth by questions left unanswered.

Now Christianity and black nationalism don't really match so I never belonged to a church, except for a 3-4 year stint at a new wave "Science of Mind" church that moms was goin to when I was like 7-11 years old (Really new wave. We met on the 9th floor of the Water Tower Place). My parents never really talked bad about Christians, but moms did point out contradictions that baffled her. Like in Exodus when God hardened Pharoah's heart so he wouldn't let Moses's people go. Or why would an omnipotent God have anything to prove to the Devil in the story of Job? As far as I see that tale, it proved that Job was indeed faithful, and that the Devil could make a damn fool out of God.

So from jump I always thought tyhat Christianity was kind of foolish. As a child reading Greek myths I couldn't see how they were any more fake than the Bible stories. And just growing up with nationalist tendencies it's real easy to dismiss Christianity on basis of the way Europeans have used it to fuck minds. Still in the past 5 years or so I have come to realize that Christianity is not an evil. Partly do to some of the first real conversations that I had with cats on the topic when I was at Morehouse. I see it as just another religion. But it's the only one I know of seeking to convert the globe.

Yes I do believe in evolution. But that's faith too, because fossil records aren't facts, they have top be interpreted. And no one can explain exactly how things evolve, only that they do. I don't belive in sin because I don't belive in good or evil- in the abstract. These concepts only exist in relation to the capacity that we have to define them as such. I don't think human beings were specifically chosen to exist, we just do (again only to the degree to which we can define existence).

I think that the qualities that we consider uniquely human are just the product further evolution. A more intense mode of vibration. There are various levels of comprehension found in things we consider alive. Insects are more "aware" of this world than plants, frogs are more "aware" than insects, monkeys are more "aware" than frogs, and we are more "aware" than all of them.

I don't think the soul exists outside of the physical human state. So how can I belive that there is a place where this nothing goes.

Now I'll reply to your question of abuse. I was told that I was going to hell by a white woman at a bus stop who was passing out propaganda when I was 15. I was more pissed that she a white lady tryin to me tell me that she knew better than me about anything in my life, than I was upset about me going to hell. So the reason that I may come off angry when I talk about Hell is because the concept of hell and damnation vs salvation and all the rules inplace to govern such, stick out as the easiest to criticize of all the main tenets of Christianity.

Ive been writing too long so I'll finish. I don't hate religion. I think we need more of it. I think this country would be better off if there was prayer in school- and every where else. I don't have a defined system of belief, but were I to adopt one I think it would be bullshit if wasn't able to practice it wherever I chose. I think the most productive communities are made up of like minded people. I'm a fan of the "If you don't like it you can leave" school of tolerance. I also think that the seperation of church and state is a mistake. I don't know how on earth human beings could decide that as individuals they would come together based on anything less than a common belief in world origin and afterlife. But that is America. No conclusion.


___________________________________
-representin the real since tuesday
-illified illustrated.word.fresh.

FROM THE GROUND UP- ROOTS 2nd CD- BUY NOW: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000073F6/qid=989953006/sr=1-1/202-6163542-0903066


OKAY...now i am recognizin that the choice to rhyme for self is urgin me to to put the wealth not quite as high upon the shelf/ for me wisdom is decisions made aside from what ya'll like/ so just clean up all of your ears/ these are my views and you will find that/we revolutionize it with the kick and the snare.....(c)thisghettovocalist

MY LATEST RAP ALIASES- mcbadfeet aka: the mayor goldie wilson of rap, aka big chris the juicebox, aka jesus jones retired messiah, aka the black jamie lawson of rap, aka thurgood killabitch the IV, aka brooklyn jackson from queens, aka homer pimpson, aka alex p. cheatin, aka benny ill, aka stank sinatra, aka michael j. rocks

  

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osoclasi
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Sat Jun-09-01 08:01 AM

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140. "Pharoah heart"
In response to Reply # 126


          

>Born in chicago to two psuedo-revolutionaries
>(i use this term with
>affection. most revolutionaries were pseudo)
>way back in 1979. My
>father was born into a
>country Christian family from Missippi.
>My pops had like a
>140+ iq and as family
>legend goes he had alot
>of the Bible commited to
>memory as a child (not
>neccessarily by choice). My moms
>grew up in Church too,
>but like many who leave
>the Church, she was frustrated
>in her youth by questions
>left unanswered.

Responce: What are some of her questions I'd love to answer them for her.
>
>Now Christianity and black nationalism don't
>really match so I never
>belonged to a church, except
>for a 3-4 year stint
>at a new wave "Science
>of Mind" church that moms
>was goin to when I
>was like 7-11 years old
>(Really new wave. We met
>on the 9th floor of
>the Water Tower Place). My
>parents never really talked bad
>about Christians, but moms did
>point out contradictions that baffled
>her. Like in Exodus when
>God hardened Pharoah's heart so
>he wouldn't let Moses's people
>go.

Responce: Hey I know that this does'nt fit here but listen to this. God Hardening Pharoah's heart is not a contridiction. First really quick ( write back if you want an indepth answer) you have to look at how God hardened Pharaoh's heart. First Pharoah hardened his own heart Ex 7:13 and Ex 8:19. It declares that Pharoah's heart grew hard Ex 7:13. Futhermore, the way God hardened his heart is by showing the Pharoah mercy. every time God would relieve him of a plague the Pharoah's heart grew hard. So in a sense God did harden his heart with mercy the pharoah hardened his own heart out of stubborness.

Or why would an
>omnipotent God have anything to
>prove to the Devil in
>the story of Job? As
>far as I see that
>tale, it proved that Job
>was indeed faithful, and that
>the Devil could make a
>damn fool out of God.
>

Responce: No way, this shows Gods authority even over the powers of darkness. First the devil had to answer to God in the opening of the book. Next God used the Devil to make Job suffer but God wanted to mold Job into a better person. So the Devil wanted to kill Job but God wanted to make him more holy. Yes God is in control of everything.
>
>So from jump I always thought
>tyhat Christianity was kind of
>foolish. As a child reading
>Greek myths I couldn't see
>how they were any more
>fake than the Bible stories.

Responce: Because the Bible has history behind it and is evidential.

>And just growing up with
>nationalist tendencies it's real easy
>to dismiss Christianity on basis
>of the way Europeans have
>used it to fuck minds.

Responce: But you can't look at Europeans and find Christianity you have to go to the source.

>Still in the past 5
>years or so I have
>come to realize that Christianity
>is not an evil. Partly
>do to some of the
>first real conversations that I
>had with cats on the
>topic when I was at
>Morehouse. I see it as
>just another religion. But it's
>the only one I know
>of seeking to convert the
>globe.
>
>Yes I do believe in evolution.
>But that's faith too, because
>fossil records aren't facts, they
>have top be interpreted. And
>no one can explain exactly
>how things evolve, only that
>they do.

Responce: It takes more faith to beleive in Evolution than it does to believe in creation.

I don't belive
>in sin because I don't
>belive in good or evil-
>in the abstract. These concepts
>only exist in relation to
>the capacity that we have
>to define them as such.
>I don't think human beings
>were specifically chosen to exist,
>we just do (again only
>to the degree to which
>we can define existence).

Responce: Yes, sin does exist but we can debate this later if you choose. And in this day and age evolution is on the ropes. from a Biological, Chemical, and logical God has revealed himself to the world.
>

------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

  

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mcbadfeet
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Mon Jun-11-01 06:41 AM

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151. "RE: Pharoah heart"
In response to Reply # 140


          


>Responce: What are some of her
>questions I'd love to answer
>them for her.

These are her questions.

>>
>>Now Christianity and black nationalism don't
>>really match so I never
>>belonged to a church, except
>>for a 3-4 year stint
>>at a new wave "Science
>>of Mind" church that moms
>>was goin to when I
>>was like 7-11 years old
>>(Really new wave. We met
>>on the 9th floor of
>>the Water Tower Place). My
>>parents never really talked bad
>>about Christians, but moms did
>>point out contradictions that baffled
>>her. Like in Exodus when
>>God hardened Pharoah's heart so
>>he wouldn't let Moses's people
>>go.
>
>Responce: Hey I know that this
>does'nt fit here but listen
>to this. God Hardening Pharoah's
>heart is not a contridiction.

I don't agree.

>First really quick ( write
>back if you want an
>indepth answer) you have to
>look at how God hardened
>Pharaoh's heart. First Pharoah hardened
>his own heart Ex 7:13
>and Ex 8:19. It declares
>that Pharoah's heart grew hard
>Ex 7:13. Futhermore, the way
>God hardened his heart is
>by showing the Pharoah mercy.
>every time God would relieve
>him of a plague the
>Pharoah's heart grew hard. So
>in a sense God did
>harden his heart with mercy
>the pharoah hardened his own
>heart out of stubborness.

You believe that this is the truth so you defend it. It is fine if you need for this to make sense to you. But, you must know that you cannot say that He actually hardened his heart by being merciful. If I bust you in the mouth one time, is holding back the second shot to the mouth mercy? Well I guess so in the Bible.


>Responce: No way, this shows Gods
>authority even over the powers
>of darkness.

No it doesn't. Read Job again. It starts of with the Devil daring God to fuck Job over to prove that his people will love him even under the worst circumstances. What does God have to prove to anyone that he has any real authority over. That is the only question you need to be asking yourself.

>>So from jump I always thought
>>tyhat Christianity was kind of
>>foolish. As a child reading
>>Greek myths I couldn't see
>>how they were any more
>>fake than the Bible stories.
>
>Responce: Because the Bible has history
>behind it and is evidential.

Not true. There is still scholarly debate over whether or not Jesus the Christ ever existed. I'm not equipped to argue it either way, but you would be hard pressed to find any evidence outside of religious text that would support his existence. But we all know when It comes to spiritual beliefs, faith is the most important thing, so this usually doesn't and shouldn't matter to Christians.


>Responce: But you can't look at
>Europeans and find Christianity you
>have to go to the
>source.

Are you trying to argue?? I think we agree here.

>
>>Still in the past 5
>>years or so I have
>>come to realize that Christianity
>>is not an evil. Partly
>>do to some of the
>>first real conversations that I
>>had with cats on the
>>topic when I was at
>>Morehouse. I see it as
>>just another religion. But it's
>>the only one I know
>>of seeking to convert the
>>globe.
>>
>>Yes I do believe in evolution.
>>But that's faith too, because
>>fossil records aren't facts, they
>>have top be interpreted. And
>>no one can explain exactly
>>how things evolve, only that
>>they do.


>Responce: It takes more faith to
>beleive in Evolution than it
>does to believe in creation.

I disagree. Still if the degree of faith it takes to believe in something lessens it's worth, then why aren't you agnostic? No faith there at all.


>Responce: Yes, sin does exist but
>we can debate this later
>if you choose.

Define sin and we'll start.

And in
>this day and age evolution
>is on the ropes. from
>a Biological, Chemical, and logical
>God has revealed himself to
>the world.

This is a nonsense statement.
Maybe some words have been left out.

LOVE AND RESPECT.
________________________________________
-representin the real since tuesday
-illified illustrated.word.fresh.

FROM THE GROUND UP- ROOTS 2nd CD- BUY NOW: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000073F6/qid=989953006/sr=1-1/202-6163542-0903066


OKAY...now i am recognizin that the choice to rhyme for self is urgin me to to put the wealth not quite as high upon the shelf/ for me wisdom is decisions made aside from what ya'll like/ so just clean up all of your ears/ these are my views and you will find that/we revolutionize it with the kick and the snare.....(c)thisghettovocalist

MY LATEST RAP ALIASES- mcbadfeet aka: the mayor goldie wilson of rap, aka big chris the juicebox, aka jesus jones retired messiah, aka the black jamie lawson of rap, aka thurgood killabitch the IV, aka brooklyn jackson from queens, aka homer pimpson, aka alex p. cheatin, aka benny ill, aka stank sinatra, aka michael j. rocks

  

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osoclasi
Charter member
993 posts
Thu Jun-14-01 05:37 AM

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229. "RE: Pharoah heart"
In response to Reply # 151


          

>
>
>These are her questions.
>
>>>
>>>Now Christianity and black nationalism don't
>>>really match so I never
>>>belonged to a church, except
>>>for a 3-4 year stint
>>>at a new wave "Science
>>>of Mind" church that moms
>>>was goin to when I
>>>was like 7-11 years old
>>>(Really new wave. We met
>>>on the 9th floor of
>>>the Water Tower Place). My
>>>parents never really talked bad
>>>about Christians, but moms did
>>>point out contradictions that baffled
>>>her. Like in Exodus when
>>>God hardened Pharoah's heart so
>>>he wouldn't let Moses's people
>>>go.

Responce: I really don't see your question here, This seems more like a commentary of your Christian experiance.
>>
>I don't agree.
>
>
>You believe that this is the
>truth so you defend it.
>It is fine if you
>need for this to make
>sense to you. But, you
>must know that you cannot
>say that He actually hardened
>his heart by being merciful.
>If I bust you in
>the mouth one time, is
>holding back the second shot
>to the mouth mercy? Well
>I guess so in the
>Bible.

Responce: You lost me here. But heres another responce.The sense in which God hardened Pharoahs heart is similar to the way the sun melts wax. If Pharoah had been receptive to God's warning, his heart would not have been hardened by God. But when God gave Pharoah a reprieve from the plagues, he took advantage of the situation. If God is hardening Pharoah's heart in accordance with his own inclination and choice, then God cannot be charged with being unjust, unloving, or acting contrary to their God-giving free choice.
>
>
>No it doesn't. Read Job again.
>It starts of with the
>Devil daring God to fuck
>Job over to prove that
>his people will love him
>even under the worst circumstances.
>What does God have to
>prove to anyone that he
>has any real authority over.
>That is the only question
>you need to be asking
>yourself.
>

Responce: No thanks, I've read Job enough times for everybody. Your missing the point. He is not trying to prove something to the devil, he's trying to use the devil to complete his will. God is in control here all the way. Sometime in scripture God uses the devil to complete his mission and uses suffering to complete his conquest. The devil wanted to destroy Job while God wanted to make Job spirtually complete. And if you see the ene of the book that's just what happens God blesses Job because of his faith through the rough times while the devil failed in his mission. Showing that God is the supreme controller of the world.

>Not true. There is still scholarly
>debate over whether or not
>Jesus the Christ ever existed.

Responce: No not really G.A. Wells and another guy are pretty much the only ones still(I think his name is Thomas Martin) holding this view.Neither one of these guys are Biblical scholars. The majority admit the Christ existed.

>I'm not equipped to argue
>it either way, but you
>would be hard pressed to
>find any evidence outside of
>religious text that would support
>his existence.

Responce: No way theres a million things out there that support his existance. Like the discovery of the Yohanna which was a tomb of a man who had been cruxified just like Jesus with the spike and all. Why sont Jews sacrifice animals anymore a tradition they have been doing for years and plenty more.

But we all
>know when It comes to
>spiritual beliefs, faith is the
>most important thing, so this
>usually doesn't and shouldn't matter
>to Christians.

Responce: But, its faith based on facts.
>
>
>>>
>>>
>
>I disagree. Still if the degree
>of faith it takes to
>believe in something lessens it's
>worth, then why aren't you
>agnostic? No faith there at
>all.

Responce: Because the amount of evidence for God os so huge that there is no doubt in my mind he exist. If you have time try to find the evidence for God post I had up for about a month and tell me what you think.
>
>
>Define sin and we'll start.

Responce:Sin is missing the mark of God's rightousness. God is perfect and sin happpens when we fall short of God's glory when we offend God.
>
>

------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

  

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mcbadfeet
Charter member
1066 posts
Thu Jun-14-01 10:26 AM

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257. "RE: Pharoah heart"
In response to Reply # 229


          

>>>>Now Christianity and black nationalism don't
>>>>really match so I never
>>>>belonged to a church, except
>>>>for a 3-4 year stint
>>>>at a new wave "Science
>>>>of Mind" church that moms
>>>>was goin to when I
>>>>was like 7-11 years old
>>>>(Really new wave. We met
>>>>on the 9th floor of
>>>>the Water Tower Place). My
>>>>parents never really talked bad
>>>>about Christians, but moms did
>>>>point out contradictions that baffled
>>>>her. Like in Exodus when
>>>>God hardened Pharoah's heart so
>>>>he wouldn't let Moses's people
>>>>go.
>
>Responce: I really don't see your
>question here, This seems more
>like a commentary of your
>Christian experiance.

THERE IS NO QUESTION HERE. Look at all the arrows. You are replying to the original text that I replyed to your your reply too. Are you reading these??

>>You believe that this is the
>>truth so you defend it.
>>It is fine if you
>>need for this to make
>>sense to you. But, you
>>must know that you cannot
>>say that He actually hardened
>>his heart by being merciful.
>>If I bust you in
>>the mouth one time, is
>>holding back the second shot
>>to the mouth mercy? Well
>>I guess so in the
>>Bible.
>
>Responce: You lost me here. But
>heres another responce.The sense in
>which God hardened Pharoahs heart
>is similar to the way
>the sun melts wax. If
>Pharoah had been receptive to
>God's warning, his heart would
>not have been hardened by
>God. But when God gave
>Pharoah a reprieve from the
>plagues, he took advantage of
>the situation. If God is
>hardening Pharoah's heart in accordance
>with his own inclination and
>choice, then God cannot be
>charged with being unjust, unloving,
>or acting contrary to their
>God-giving free choice.

Look if God wanted a no-hassle let-my-people-go scenario he would've just gone to the pharoah the way he went to Moses.
This is a fable with a drawn out plot for the sake of suspense.


>>No it doesn't. Read Job again.
>>It starts of with the
>>Devil daring God to fuck
>>Job over to prove that
>>his people will love him
>>even under the worst circumstances.
>>What does God have to
>>prove to anyone that he
>>has any real authority over.
>>That is the only question
>>you need to be asking
>>yourself.


>Responce: No thanks, I've read Job
>enough times for everybody. Your
>missing the point. He is
>not trying to prove something
>to the devil,

Yes he is.

he's trying
>to use the devil to
>complete his will.

Why would God need to use the devil for any purposes. God didn't need the devil to be around to do any of those things to Job. According to the book of Job, God did these things to demonstrate his power over, and the faith of his people. Again omnipotent beings have nothing to prove.


Sometime in scripture
>God uses the devil to
>complete his mission and uses
>suffering to complete his conquest.
>The devil wanted to destroy
>Job while God wanted to
>make Job spirtually complete. And
>if you see the end
>of the book that's just
>what happens God blesses Job
>because of his faith through
>the rough times while the
>devil failed in his mission.
>Showing that God is the
>supreme controller of the world.



>Responce: No not really G.A. Wells
>and another guy are pretty
>much the only ones still(I
>think his name is Thomas
>Martin) holding this view.Neither
>one of these guys are
>Biblical scholars.

The bible says flat out that Jesus exists. So how would being a Biblical scholar help prove his existence, since the proof would have to exist outside of the religious texts?

> The majority admit
>the Christ existed.

Admit....?
They believe that Christ existed.



>Responce: No way theres a million
>things out there that support
>his existance. Like the discovery
>of the Yohanna which was
>a tomb of a man
>who had been cruxified just
>like Jesus with the spike
>and all.

Crucifixion was a means of corporal punishment. That does nothing to help prove the existence of Jesus Christ. And remembr I never said that He didn't exist. It just matters little to me.
Smokey the Bear aint real but if he stops forest fires he's all right with me.


Why wont Jews
>sacrifice animals anymore a tradition
>they have been doing for
>years and plenty more.

Why don't we ride around in buggy's instead of cars? Traditions change. I don't think that the lack of animal sacrifice in Jewish ritual is anything strong enough for any real belief in Jesus Christ to stand on.


>Responce: But, its faith based on
>facts.

Isn't it always. Which facts?- the ones in the Koran, the Bible or my Scientology pamphlet?


>Responce: Because the amount of evidence
>for God is so huge
>that there is no doubt
>in my mind that he exists.
>If you have time try
>to find the evidence for
>God post I had up
>for about a month and
>tell me what you think.

I checked it out when it was up. Didn't find any evidence strong enough to comment on.



>>Define sin and we'll start.

>Responce:Sin is missing the mark of
>God's rightousness. God is perfect
>and sin happpens when we
>fall short of God's glory
>when we offend God.

Okay. What is sin again? How can I offend God? God with all of the powers commonly attributed to Him, is more superior to me that I am to a fly. Never been offended by a fly. Ants are too too insignificant to my existence to allow myself to take offense to anything they do.

Can you not see how insane this sounds.
1. God is perfect.
2. God creates man of his own free will and makes him imperfect.
3. God punishes man for being imperfect.
4. Allows us an escape from this punishment if we all ride his dick.

1+2+3+4 = God is fuckin punk.

Who would do some shit like that but a punk. For real? Don't take this like I'm all angry at religion and tryin to incite a riot but look at it- who would do some shit like that but a punk ass.


No thanks. Don't mean to offend but yall gotta know that this is some 'ol bullshit.
>>


________________________________________
-representin the real since tuesday
-illified illustrated.word.fresh.

FROM THE GROUND UP- ROOTS 2nd CD- BUY NOW: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000073F6/qid=989953006/sr=1-1/202-6163542-0903066


OKAY...now i am recognizin that the choice to rhyme for self is urgin me to to put the wealth not quite as high upon the shelf/ for me wisdom is decisions made aside from what ya'll like/ so just clean up all of your ears/ these are my views and you will find that/we revolutionize it with the kick and the snare.....(c)thisghettovocalist

MY LATEST RAP ALIASES- mcbadfeet aka: the mayor goldie wilson of rap, aka big chris the juicebox, aka jesus jones retired messiah, aka the black jamie lawson of rap, aka thurgood killabitch the IV, aka brooklyn jackson from queens, aka homer pimpson, aka alex p. cheatin, aka benny ill, aka stank sinatra, aka michael j. rocks

  

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abduhu
Charter member
1734 posts
Thu Jun-14-01 10:57 AM

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259. "you HAD a good arguement........."
In response to Reply # 257


          

until you said this...............:

>Can you not see how insane
>this sounds.
>1. God is perfect.
>2. God creates man of his
>own free will and makes
>him imperfect.
>3. God punishes man for being
>imperfect.
>4. Allows us an escape from
>this punishment if we all
>ride his dick.
>
>1+2+3+4 = God is fuckin punk.
>
>
>Who would do some shit like
>that but a punk.

because you had said earlier:

>Why would God need to use
>the devil for any purposes.
>God didn't need the devil
>to be around to do
>any of those things to
>Job. According to the book
>of Job, God did these
>things to demonstrate his power
>over, and the faith of
>his people. Again omnipotent beings
>have nothing to prove.

key phrases: "God did these things to demonstrate his power over"........and.........."omnipotent beings
>have nothing to prove"


so if God "did these things to demonstrate his power" and has "nothing to prove" b/c hes "omnipotent", would he be able to do all of those things you said above (2 THRU 4-minus the ignorant wording) w/o being a punk?

mcbadfeet (is it mc as in "m.c.-master of ceremony" or mc as in "mcdonalds"), you had it going.......oh well.


subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You). ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except You). astaghfiruka (I seek Your forgiveness), wa attuubu ilaika (and I turn to You in Repentance).

  

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mcbadfeet
Charter member
1066 posts
Thu Jun-14-01 11:10 AM

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260. "RE: you HAD a good arguement........."
In response to Reply # 259


          

>key phrases: "God did these things
>to demonstrate his power over"........and.........."omnipotent
>beings
>>have nothing to prove"
>
>
>so if God "did these things
>to demonstrate his power" and
>has "nothing to prove" b/c
>hes "omnipotent", would he be
>able to do all of
>those things you said above
>(2 THRU 4-minus the ignorant
>wording) w/o being a punk?


God can do what ever he chooses (I am a bit tired of having to talk as if "he" actually exists to make my point) but those actions as judged by me are the actions of a punk, or a sucker- if you will. Which is why (or better- one of the many reasons why) the God in the Bible is as fake to me as the Gods in the Odyssey. His actions in the story of Job pretty much fall in line with the rest of the God in the Bible, which is why I used it as an example.

>mcbadfeet (is it mc as in
>"m.c.-master of ceremony" or mc
>as in "mcdonalds"), you had
>it going.......oh well.


mc- as in ima whoop that ass, badfeet. master of ceremony



________________________________________
-representin the real since tuesday
-illified illustrated.word.fresh.

FROM THE GROUND UP- ROOTS 2nd CD- BUY NOW: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000073F6/qid=989953006/sr=1-1/202-6163542-0903066


OKAY...now i am recognizin that the choice to rhyme for self is urgin me to to put the wealth not quite as high upon the shelf/ for me wisdom is decisions made aside from what ya'll like/ so just clean up all of your ears/ these are my views and you will find that/we revolutionize it with the kick and the snare.....(c)thisghettovocalist

MY LATEST RAP ALIASES- mcbadfeet aka: the mayor goldie wilson of rap, aka big chris the juicebox, aka jesus jones retired messiah, aka the black jamie lawson of rap, aka thurgood killabitch the IV, aka brooklyn jackson from queens, aka homer pimpson, aka alex p. cheatin, aka benny ill, aka stank sinatra, aka michael j. rocks

  

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osoclasi
Charter member
993 posts
Fri Jun-15-01 03:34 AM

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269. "RE: Pharoah heart"
In response to Reply # 257


          


>>
>
>THERE IS NO QUESTION HERE. Look
>at all the arrows. You
>are replying to the original
>text that I replyed to
>your your reply too. Are
>you reading these??

Responce: My bad. I thought you were telling me your moms concerncs somewhere in here.
>

>
>Look if God wanted a no-hassle
>let-my-people-go scenario he would've just
>gone to the pharoah the
>way he went to Moses.

Responce: Yes, he could have but that's not the point. God wanted to display to Isreal that he was the one true God. So thats why he punished Pharoah and all of Pharoah's gods. The way he appears to Moses is different because he was intimate with Moses and revealed his name to him.
>
>This is a fable with a
>drawn out plot for the
>sake of suspense.
>

Responce: No, it wasn't for suspence God had a reason for everything that he did. For example he showed his powers over Pharoah's magicians showing God had the authority over evil, he revealed himself to Isreal. He remained faithful to the covenant of Abraham, and that he never breaks his covenant with his children.
>

>
>Yes he is.
>
> he's trying
>>to use the devil to
>>complete his will.

Responce: He isn't trying he does.
>
>Why would God need to use
>the devil for any purposes.
>God didn't need the devil
>to be around to do
>any of those things to
>Job. According to the book
>of Job, God did these
>things to demonstrate his power
>over, and the faith of
>his people. Again omnipotent beings
>have nothing to prove.

Responce: You kind of answered your own question omnipotent beings have nothing to prove therefore you are agreeing with me on this point. All through scriptures God uses the Devil to complete his will. This is significant because God is showing his power over the power of darkness. That know matter what Satan plan is God's plan will always prevail. And this is security for the believer that Satan's plan will never prevail against us because God's plan is higher.
>
>

>

>
>The bible says flat out that
>Jesus exists. So how would
>being a Biblical scholar help
>prove his existence, since the
>proof would have to exist
>outside of the religious texts?

Responce: You missed my point. The scholors who tried to deny his existance were a little out of there league. So a lot of there aurguments fell short because of their background. Not all of their aurguments were outside of the Biblical text.
>
>
>Admit....?
>They believe that Christ existed.

Responce: Exactly, its hard to find any credible scholars who would disagree.
>

>
>Crucifixion was a means of corporal
>punishment. That does nothing to
>help prove the existence of
>Jesus Christ. And remembr I
>never said that He didn't
>exist. It just matters little
>to me.
>Smokey the Bear aint real but
>if he stops forest fires
>he's all right with me.

Responce: I will take into account that you never said he did or did'nt exist. But there are many who make the claim that Christ was never cruxified and the whole story was fabricated. Thats why I brought briefly the Yohannan.
>

>
>Why don't we ride around in
>buggy's instead of cars? Traditions
>change. I don't think that
>the lack of animal sacrifice
>in Jewish ritual is anything
>strong enough for any real
>belief in Jesus Christ to
>stand on.

Responce: No, you have to realize that the Jewish sacrificial system is deeply rooted into the core of their foundation. The Jews sacrificed animals for thousands of years threwout the entire old testament. Then right after Christ resurrection it stop. So your buggy argument is kind of correct is saying that something better has come along.
>

>
>Isn't it always. Which facts?- the
>ones in the Koran, the
>Bible or my Scientology pamphlet?

Responce: No, what I am saying is if you take an objective look at Christianity or any religion you can see if it is divine or not. By the way L Ron Hubbard was quoted as saying the best way to make some money is through religion. The next year scientolgy became a reality.
>

>
>I checked it out when it
>was up. Didn't find any
>evidence strong enough to comment
>on.

Responce: Do you know part 2 of Evidence for God is the fact that there are no really good reasons to be an atheist. To say that there is no evidence for God is one thing but you have to come with evidence disproving God.
>
>

>
>Okay. What is sin again? How
>can I offend God? God
>with all of the powers
>commonly attributed to Him, is
>more superior to me that
>I am to a fly.
>Never been offended by a
>fly. Ants are too too
>insignificant to my existence to
>allow myself to take offense
>to anything they do.

Responce: But unlike ants we are significant to God because we were created in his Image.
>
>Can you not see how insane
>this sounds.
>1. God is perfect.
>2. God creates man of his
>own free will and makes
>him imperfect.
>3. God punishes man for being
>imperfect.
>4. Allows us an escape from
>this punishment if we all
>ride his dick.
>

Responce: 1 is correct.2)is borderline 3)is incorrect, God punished man because of his disobediance not for imprfection.4)This is funny you really are trying to offend God here, but that's okay God has a place just waiting for you if you do not want to be in fellowship with him.
>
>Who would do some shit like
>that but a punk. For
>real? Don't take this like
>I'm all angry at religion
>and tryin to incite a
>riot but look at it-
>who would do some shit
>like that but a punk
>ass.
>
Responce: Temper, Temper. Would a punk die for you, would a punk make you in his image, would a punk love you unconditionally even though you nor I deserve it,would a punk take the time to put you together in your mothers womb. The answer is no God wanted you to be free and to choose him or not to choose him that is the point of the fall.A God who forces you to love him would be your punk.
>
>No thanks. Don't mean to offend
>but yall gotta know that
>this is some 'ol bullshit.
>

Responce: No offense taken, I've heard worse.
>>>
>
>
>

------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

  

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mthompkins

Tue Jun-12-01 09:22 AM

  
162. "RE: the history of badfeet..."
In response to Reply # 126


          

Hey man, I appreciate you responding and giving me your history. To be honest, I myself used to be like that white lady. I started living for Christ about 4 years ago. And when I first started living the life, I too thought the best way to convert people was telling them that they were going to hell. And yeah, on some people, that will work. But what do you do when you encounter people who don't necessarily believe there is a hell. Then I opened up the bible one day and read "the love of God draws a man to repentance." And it dawned on me that I was trying to use the wraft of God instead of the love of God to lead people to Christ. So I had to go back and repent for that. And now when I meet other people who don't believe in Christ, I just walk in the love of God towards them because I know that will prove God is real more than telling them that they are going to hell ever will.

>>(Mcbadfeet wrote) My parents never really talked bad about Christians, but moms did point out contradictions that baffled her. Like in Exodus when God hardened Pharoah's heart so he wouldn't let Moses's people go. Or why would an omnipotent God have anything to prove to the Devil in the story of Job? As far as I see that tale, it proved that Job was indeed faithful, and that the Devil could make a damn fool out of God. >>

It was funny to hear you say this. I too grew up in a "back in the woods baptist church" where I didn't get any understanding of the bible and saw people who said one thing and did something else. I too had questions about this so called loving God who uses bad things to teach good people a lesson, like Job. But 4 years ago, I went to a church that actually taught the word, with simplicity and understanding and saw things in the bible I never saw before.

Take Job for instance, it looks like God allowed satan or used satan to teach him a lesson. But after studying the bible, I realize that God was showing us something about the devil and how he works. Of course it would take me a long time to show this to you in the bible, but I will throw this out and hope that you'll do some more research into it. If you study the bible you will see that God actually created man to be a higher being than the angels, which satan being of the angelic class. I don't have time to show you scripture, but if you think about it, the bible says salvation is for man. God gave man an entire planet and all the angels do is serve us. There are no female angels in the bible. Therefore the angels don't have sex or the ability to reproduce themselves. In Genesis, the bible says God created man in His image and His likeness and said that man would be like Him. He didn't say we would be like Him and the angels. This is important yet unfornutately, a lot of Christians don't know this. According to the bible, there are two things man has to do in order to walk in the power we have over not only angels, but anything that is not human(i.e. sicknesses, animals, weather, demons, and etc), we must be hooked up to God and we must believe that we are hooked up to him. Job was righteous because he was hooked up to God in a covenant. But if you read Job, you'll see he really didn't believe this because every morning, he rose up making a new covenant with God as if his old covenant had expired. He feared that God was going to kill his children when God was the one protecting them. The bible says that fear operates the opposite of faith. If you are sick, and you got faith that God will heal you, your faith will cause that to come to pass. But if you are healed, and you fear getting sick, your fear will cause your sickness to come to pass. In the book of Job, in chapter 2 or 3, Job said, my worst fears have come to pass. God was trying to use Job's situation to show us not to fear when we have a covenant with Him or else we will give satan power over our lives. All through out the book of Job, we see Job blaming God for something the devil did. And that still wholes true today as we label tornadoes and hurricanes as acts of God. (Let me know if you want exact bible scripture for this, I'll look it up for you)

Moses: This scripture confused me also, because I am thinking why would God on purpose hardens Pharoah's heart. But then I got an understanding and I realize something now about the power of God that was on Moses. This power is referred to in the bible as the anointing(the burden removing yoke destroying power of God). Because God is Holy, his presence does one of two things. It can draw you closer to Him causing you to repent, or it can drive you away from Him filling you with more hurt and anger towards Him. In Pharoah's case, the presence of God on Moses caused his heart to harden towards God and God's people. So in this sense, it really wasn't God on purpose hardening pharoah's heart but because Pharoah was so full of evil, the presence of God's Holiness caused his heart to harden.


>>(Mcbadfeet wrote)So from jump I always thought tyhat Christianity was kind of foolish. As a child reading Greek myths I couldn't see how they were any more fake than the Bible stories. And just growing up with nationalist tendencies it's real easy to dismiss Christianity on basis of the way Europeans have used it to fuck minds. Still in the past 5 years or so I have come to realize that Christianity is not an evil. Partly do to some of the first real conversations that I had with cats on the topic when I was at Morehouse. I see it as just another religion. But it's the only one I know of seeking to convert the globe.>>

Yeah, I can actually understand why you don't see the bible as being different from greek myth. I actually think there is some truth to greek myths. I believe that a lot of people back then saw something that was real but the way they explained it seems phony to us today. Check this out though, just something to think about. In Genesis chapter 6, the bible says the Sons of God came down and had sex with women. In the book of Jude, these Sons of God were later to be interpreted angels. Angels who came down and had sex with human women. The result of this union were mighty men. Giants that the bible calls Nephilim. According to greek myth, there were men on the planet who had superhuman strength and were considered to be the sons of the gods. If you think about it, for people who existed back then, if they saw angels coming down from heaven and having sex with human women, what would they have called these angels, being ignorant of who these beings truly were? They would have called them gods, lower case "g." And then the children of this perverted union, the bible says there were mighty men. I wonder if this event that happened before the flood fueled a lot of the characters we know of today from greek legends.

But the above examples are just really me showing you how, like you, I heard a lot of crazy stuff in the bible that created more questions than answers. But once I emcountered people who were actually living the life, not the religious life of talking the talk but not walking the walk, but true people who could actually hear from God and show you scripture after scripture of why certain things happened that didn't make sense, I now have understanding. So my hope mcbadfeet is that you could ask me some questions you've always had about the bible and let me show you in the bible the answers to those questions. Like for instance, where in the bible does it say that God created man higher than the angels when religion has been teaching for the last 2000 years that we are beneath the angels? Or where in the bible does it say that God's presence hardens some people's heart when it drew others closer to Him? So hopefully we can have some discussions along those lines. If not, I still love you and I pray that the true God of this universe show Himself to you in a way that you cannot deny that He is real and more real than the words on this screen and the computer monitor you are looking at. May you have the peace of Jesus, and be blessed.

  

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mcbadfeet
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167. "i hear you."
In response to Reply # 162


          

I'll say that your perspective is more enlightened than the "evil-christian" stereotype, still I want you to understand that to get to these kinds of interpretations of the scripture you first had to buy into it. You had to believe in heaven and hell and in a need for your own salvation in order to accept the challenges of these things, and then work through them from within your faith.

If I were a neo-nazi and believed in the superiority of whites over all races then I would be in a position to re-interpret many texts (not the bible) to defend my specific beliefs in race consciousness. Im not trying to analogize christianity and nazi faith, but when you believe in something, you are willing to look longer and harder at it in an effort to make it seem true, than any one will to discredit it.

Love, peace, and dove meat.
________________________________________
-representin the real since tuesday
-illified illustrated.word.fresh.

FROM THE GROUND UP- ROOTS 2nd CD- BUY NOW: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000073F6/qid=989953006/sr=1-1/202-6163542-0903066


OKAY...now i am recognizin that the choice to rhyme for self is urgin me to to put the wealth not quite as high upon the shelf/ for me wisdom is decisions made aside from what ya'll like/ so just clean up all of your ears/ these are my views and you will find that/we revolutionize it with the kick and the snare.....(c)thisghettovocalist

MY LATEST RAP ALIASES- mcbadfeet aka: the mayor goldie wilson of rap, aka big chris the juicebox, aka jesus jones retired messiah, aka the black jamie lawson of rap, aka thurgood killabitch the IV, aka brooklyn jackson from queens, aka homer pimpson, aka alex p. cheatin, aka benny ill, aka stank sinatra, aka michael j. rocks

  

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peace3
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31620 posts
Fri Jun-15-01 07:15 AM

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277. "RE: ethiopia"
In response to Reply # 12


          

>the history of christianity in ethiopia
>goes back way before missionaries
>and has nothing to do
>with italy beyond the pope
>blessing the italian troops to
>fight the ethiopian troops
>
>but the ark of the covenant
>is in ethiopia
>
>
>==**peace**==
>
>"The logic of divide and rule
>is still valid today."
> Capleton
>
There you go people/you wanted truth and there it is.
Ethiopia/erytria is da home of Chrisitianity.
Pope sent troops to destroy the truth.
lol
Western idealized Christianity is still used as a manipulative tool like it always has been since before Europes Dark ages.
I look at missionaries today as the same as the Conquistadors of the past. Let people live!!!

Chariots in the sky?!?!
Why men seem surprised??!!


"The best index to a person's character is how he treats people who can't do him any good & how he treats people who can't fight back"-Abigail Van Buren

I'm Certified

  

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osoclasi
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993 posts
Fri Jun-08-01 07:41 AM

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107. "Hell?"
In response to Reply # 9


          

>>Partly because Christianity was not started
>>by white people. The staple
>>of the history of Christianity
>>was Africa and the middle
>>east.

Responce: Actually one could argue that it has been here since the beginning of time.
>
>You are half right here. I
>am aware that europeans didn't
>create Christianity. They just happen
>to love it so much.
>Africa had a small influence
>on some Christianity if any
>at all, the story of
>Holy trinity and the story
>of ressurection mirror Egytian myths
>of Isis, Osiris and Horus.
>Im slightly familiar with the
>Coptic church if this is
>what you are refering to.

Responce: Actually God revealed Christianity to us so you can't say white' black or whoever discovered this. Also the trinty o Isis, Osirus and Horus are totally different than that of the Triune God because our God is One, while theres is three seperate gods.
>
>
>>
>
>
>>
>Exactamundo. Christianity is 2000 years old.
>The truth is a little
>older than that Apocalypse. I
>can't see how anyone with
>a functioning mind would of
>their own free will choose
>to believe that Hell is
>home to the souls of
>97% of the human beings
>to ever exist on this
>planet- because they were born
>in the wrong place or
>space in time. ??????

Responce: But, Christianity has always been here. 2)Hell is not the home of 97% of human beings right now there are all in Sheol.
>
>
>
>What about when purpose is fabricated
>to abuse?

Responce: The Bible makes it cleat that no man is without excuse.
>

>



------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

  

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mcbadfeet
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Fri Jun-08-01 07:57 AM

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109. "RE: Hell?"
In response to Reply # 107


          

>Responce: Actually one could argue that
>it has been here since
>the beginning of time.

Right. We can argue anything can't we?

>Responce: Actually God revealed Christianity to
>us so you can't say
>white' black or whoever discovered
>this. Also the trinty o
>Isis, Osirus and Horus are
>totally different than that of
>the Triune God because our
>God is One, while theres
>is three seperate gods.

That wouldn't make it TOTALLY different even if it were true. But it's not. Egyptian Gods were all different faces (personalities) of one.

>Responce: But, Christianity has always been
>here. 2)Hell is not the
>home of 97% of human
>beings right now there are
>all in Sheol.


And? No heaven? Even though it's not their fault?

>>What about when purpose is fabricated
>>to abuse?
>
>Responce: The Bible makes it clear
>that no man is without
>excuse.

??
????



________________________________________
-representin the real since tuesday
-illified illustrated.word.fresh.

FROM THE GROUND UP- ROOTS 2nd CD- BUY NOW: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000073F6/qid=989953006/sr=1-1/202-6163542-0903066


OKAY...now i am recognizin that the choice to rhyme for self is urgin me to to put the wealth not quite as high upon the shelf/ for me wisdom is decisions made aside from what ya'll like/ so just clean up all of your ears/ these are my views and you will find that/we revolutionize it with the kick and the snare.....(c)thisghettovocalist

MY LATEST RAP ALIASES- mcbadfeet aka: the mayor goldie wilson of rap, aka big chris the juicebox, aka jesus jones retired messiah, aka the black jamie lawson of rap, aka thurgood killabitch the IV, aka brooklyn jackson from queens, aka homer pimpson, aka alex p. cheatin, aka benny ill, aka stank sinatra, aka michael j. rocks

  

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osoclasi
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Sat Jun-09-01 07:43 AM

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139. "RE: Hell?"
In response to Reply # 109


          

>>Responce: Actually one could argue that
>>it has been here since
>>the beginning of time.
>
>Right. We can argue anything can't
>we?

Responce: Yes, we can argue anything but we can't make a good argument for anything. This one we can.


>>Responce: Actually God revealed Christianity to
>>us so you can't say
>>white' black or whoever discovered
>>this. Also the trinty o
>>Isis, Osirus and Horus are
>>totally different than that of
>>the Triune God because our
>>God is One, while theres
>>is three seperate gods.
>
>That wouldn't make it TOTALLY different
>even if it were true.
>But it's not. Egyptian Gods
>were all different faces (personalities)
>of one.

Responce: If you are correct in what your saying that still is no where near the trinity. The trinity does'nt God the Father , Son and Holy Spirit are different faces of the same God.
>
>>Responce: But, Christianity has always been
>>here. 2)Hell is not the
>>home of 97% of human
>>beings right now there are
>>all in Sheol.
>
>
>And? No heaven? Even though it's
>not their fault?

Responce: I did'nt say heaven because I thought you'd get the point.
>
>>>What about when purpose is fabricated
>>>to abuse?
>>
>>Responce: The Bible makes it clear
>>that no man is without
>>excuse.
>
Responce Romans 1 20 - 26
>
>

------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

  

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mcbadfeet
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1066 posts
Mon Jun-11-01 07:19 AM

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152. "RE: Hell?"
In response to Reply # 139


          

>Responce: Yes, we can argue anything
>but we can't make a
>good argument for anything. This
>one we can.

.........can you?

>Responce: If you are correct in
>what your saying that still
>is no where near the
>trinity. The trinity does'nt God
>the Father , Son and
>Holy Spirit are different faces
>of the same God.

There is a spiritual trinity in both cases. In both cases these three figures are representatives of one.



>Responce: I did'nt say heaven because
>I thought you'd get the
>point.

Let me make this more clear for you.
Sheol=?


>>>>What about when purpose is fabricated
>>>>to abuse?
>>>
>>>Responce: The Bible makes it clear
>>>that no man is without
>>>excuse.
>>
>Responce Romans 1 20 - 26

What are you talking about. You are responding to a response to someone elses reply. That question has nothing to do with you.

"The bible makes it clear that no man is withiut an excuse?"
That has absolutely what to do with what???
________________________________________
-representin the real since tuesday
-illified illustrated.word.fresh.

FROM THE GROUND UP- ROOTS 2nd CD- BUY NOW: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000073F6/qid=989953006/sr=1-1/202-6163542-0903066


OKAY...now i am recognizin that the choice to rhyme for self is urgin me to to put the wealth not quite as high upon the shelf/ for me wisdom is decisions made aside from what ya'll like/ so just clean up all of your ears/ these are my views and you will find that/we revolutionize it with the kick and the snare.....(c)thisghettovocalist

MY LATEST RAP ALIASES- mcbadfeet aka: the mayor goldie wilson of rap, aka big chris the juicebox, aka jesus jones retired messiah, aka the black jamie lawson of rap, aka thurgood killabitch the IV, aka brooklyn jackson from queens, aka homer pimpson, aka alex p. cheatin, aka benny ill, aka stank sinatra, aka michael j. rocks

  

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MstrJ

Mon Jun-18-01 05:48 AM

  
291. "RE: Hell?"
In response to Reply # 139


          

>>>Responce: Actually God revealed Christianity to
>>>us so you can't say
>>>white' black or whoever discovered
>>>this. Also the trinty o
>>>Isis, Osirus and Horus are
>>>totally different than that of
>>>the Triune God because our
>>>God is One, while theres
>>>is three seperate gods.
>>
>>That wouldn't make it TOTALLY different
>>even if it were true.
>>But it's not. Egyptian Gods
>>were all different faces (personalities)
>>of one.
>
>Responce: If you are correct in
>what your saying that still
>is no where near the
>trinity. The trinity does'nt God
>the Father , Son and
>Holy Spirit are different faces
>of the same God.

Please explain your understanding of how the Trinity differs here. I'm just curious.

"If there is no struggle, there is no progress"-- Frederick Douglass
"Definitions belong to the definer, not the defined."--Toni Morrison
"They toast death and pain like slaves on a ship talkin bout who got the flyest chain"-- Talib Kweli
"Know thyself"-- Latin Proverb
"A Luta Continua"--Caribbean proverb, Portuguese for "the struggle continues"
"It is like a finger pointing to the moon... don't concentrate on the finger, or you will miss all that heavenly glory"--Bruce Lee, Enter the Dragon

A novice monk asked his preceptor, "If everything depends on God, why should we work; and if everything depends on us, why should we pray?" The teacher replied, "Work as if everything depended on you, and pray as if everything depended on God." --Early Christian story.

  

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truthwisdomluv

Fri Jun-22-01 11:50 AM

  
342. "RE: -------!!!"
In response to Reply # 9


          

sorry, i have to do it..

i just cant let blind die blind...

atleast youll hear my share of the truth..

tell me, who's to say their is a hell?

whos to say their is a heaven?

whos to say their is a afterlife?

whos to say their isn't?

to believe that creation will reject it's seed, is like believing that god would send you to hell....

it's uffed up that one can be so brainwashed...

i do not believe there is a hell...

i do not believe in such a myth....

BOO!!!!!

BOO unto the fool who lives such a "blue" lie...

F*ck America....

the land of dehumanization...

the land of the restless souls..

the land of the stolen hearts...

the land of the rolling stone.. may it crush that which gets in its way.. much like the people of it's beginnings.. may god rest their beautiful souls.. and they still die off while we argue the homage of a book.. a fu*kin book..

turn your eyes from your family dying..
i'd much rather watch TV...

turn your cheek from your children crying..
i'd much rather wear material dreams..

close your mind to the pool of your sisters blood...
id much rather live the lie....


I "SMASH THE EMPIRE BACK"

"FU*K THE EMPIRE!!"

---------mosdef (reworded to my own desire -- how neglect can neglect get)

but hey.. thats life..

live it, or dont..

regardless of your decision, it will live you...

onelove..

peace.

  

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LexM
Charter member
28342 posts
Thu Jun-07-01 10:23 AM

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15. "interesting point..."
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

>Why do black Christians refuse to
>acknowledge that by believing that
>Jesus Christ is the only
>way to salvation, that they
>must also believe that slavery
>here and colonialism in Africa
>must have been worth it
>so that we could all
>be introduced to this glorious
>God that our unfortunate ancestor
>were ignorant of.

very interesting...


>
>'Twas mercy brought me from my
>pagan land....MY ASS.
>

bwhahahahaahahahahahaahahaaha

now that's comedy


~~~SPITFIRE (NEW DATE): AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
Wanna know more? Hit me up: carameldom@hotmail.com
(((check the flyers: http://www.geocities.com/bmorestreetwise/flyers.html)))

http://www.welcome.to/okaypoets (u ain't a real okayplayer if u ain't been here)

"cats pop champagne/over misery and pain/like slaves on the ship/talkin 'bout/who got the flyest chains" ~~Talib Kweli

"you can't fool me! I'm too stupid!" (c) a random warner bros. cartoon character

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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LexM
Charter member
28342 posts
Thu Jun-07-01 08:51 AM

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5. "what is up"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

w/ all the Christianity posts lately???

sheesh...




~~~SPITFIRE (NEW DATE): AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
Wanna know more? Hit me up: carameldom@hotmail.com
(((check the flyers: http://www.geocities.com/bmorestreetwise/flyers.html)))

http://www.welcome.to/okaypoets (u ain't a real okayplayer if u ain't been here)

"cats pop champagne/over misery and pain/like slaves on the ship/talkin 'bout/who got the flyest chains" ~~Talib Kweli

"you can't fool me! I'm too stupid!" (c) a random warner bros. cartoon character

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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Soul Brotha
Charter member
1785 posts
Thu Jun-07-01 08:52 AM

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6. "Images"
In response to Reply # 0


          


99.9% of the depictions of Jesus & God are, more often than not, of men with pale skin, straight hair, and blue eyes. Images of Christ & God as a black men are still considered out of the ordinary.

Jesus was a Hebrew, no? Didn't Hebrews have brown skin?
just thoughts.

  

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Apocalypse
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Thu Jun-07-01 09:06 AM

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8. "RE: Images"
In response to Reply # 6


          

You are absolutely right, and the Bible supports that Jesus was not white (Revelations 1:14-15). "Klan Christianity" says that Jesus was white, but the Bible clearly states that Jesus was a man of color. Besides, there are very few people that would be white in the Bible. Of Noah's three sons, Japheth was the only fair-skinned one and his lineage is mentioned moderately at best throughout scripture. Almost all tribes, including all Israeli, Judean, etc. tribes are traced to Ham & Shem.

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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Chike
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Thu Jun-07-01 02:31 PM

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66. "RE: Images"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

If only it was just "Klan Christianity" that felt that way. As you may know if you've seen my name in certain other threads, I'm a Christian, so I'm not here to explain why I think Christianity's wrong. But whether it's verbalized or not, I think the mental image of Jesus most Christians in the world (not even just the West) have is the one you attributed to "Klan Christianity" (minus the actual belief he was not a Jew, which I assume those anti-Semitic Klan members also hold). Is this a major problem? I know a lot of non-Christians feel strongly that it is. What about the OkayChristians?

  

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Apocalypse
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Thu Jun-07-01 07:43 PM

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76. "RE: Images"
In response to Reply # 66


          

I definately do, mostly because it's not true.

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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mthompkins

Fri Jun-08-01 09:51 AM

  
123. "RE: Images"
In response to Reply # 66


          

Actually, only in certain places in the world that are mostly white influenced have pictures of a white Jesus. But if you go to Ethiopia and even some Hispanic cultures, they have pictures of Jesus that look like them. It is apparent(and this is human nature) that everyone wants to make God look like them. But I starting to talk to a lot of white Christians and even Jews and a lot of them are starting to acknowledge that Jesus couldn't have been white. But that he looked like a Hebrew. So I think after a little while longer, the image of a white Jesus will only be held by racist. Others will accept that He was Jewish and Jewish people back then had brown skin. I have a friend from East Africa (Iritrea), and she says in every picture and every Jesus movie, Jesus looks ethoipian. They never even thought about putting a white Jesus. But that is because East African countries never allowed themselves to be influenced by European culture. But my main focus is Jesus the person, what He came to teach us, how He was able to do the miracles He did and pursue the prophecy He gave that those who would believe on Him will be able to do the things He did and even greater works. Because I believe when Christians start doing the greater works, people will believe and be converted.

  

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Void
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Sat Jul-14-01 08:59 AM

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360. "RE: Images"
In response to Reply # 123


          

at tyhis point it is common knowledge that jesus was brown complexioned because early hebrews were dark skinned. I really hate to make this a race thing. I am Ethiopian so if anybody wants to hold a conversation concerning Ethiopia or has questions i can help, though i am only 12 i am very well read on ethiopian religion and culture. I have visited the holy country twice.Read the Sign and The Seal by Graham Salisbury for some info bout the ark and ethiopia. Hit me back.

  

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KAS19

Thu Jun-07-01 09:41 AM

  
11. "RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

i have no beef,just questions.like if your really trying to be "christ-like",why aren't you hebrew and study the laws of the torah like he did?remember,he said he came not to change the law but to fulfill it.

  

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Apocalypse
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611 posts
Thu Jun-07-01 11:42 AM

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24. "RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?"
In response to Reply # 11


          

remember,he said
>he came not to change
>the law but to fulfill
>it.

He actully said that he came not to "destroy" the law (Matt. 5:17). He didn't say change, and that makes a difference in the scripture. The greek word for destroy is kataluo, which means to utterly demolish and destroy. There are five different greek words for change in the new testament, none of them are used in the gospels, and none of them mean to destroy (meta-the greek prefix for change, for example, metalasso, to change from one state to another, metaschematizo - to transfigure from one type to another, metamorphoo -to change the entire essence of an object). With that said, Jesus fulfilled (Pleroo -to complete or totally fill), the law with His sacrifice on the Cross. Study the Different types of offerings in the First 5 chapters of Leviticus, focusing on the sin offering and the Passover Lamb. Ever heard the term the Lamb of God? That's the root of the imagery. Read Matthew 27:45-56 about the affects of Jesus' death on the temple and the veil seperating the Holiest of Holies from the rest of the temple and correlate that with Leviticus 16 and Exodus 26:31. He was the final sin offering that fulfilled the law and allowed us to receive the grace of God. The law is not obsolete, just fulfilled. Does that help?


Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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KAS19

Thu Jun-07-01 12:21 PM

  
38. "RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?"
In response to Reply # 24


          

that's all well and good,but why aren't you hebrew?and who was the first christian?i'm not trying to be disrespectful,i just want to know.

  

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Apocalypse
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Thu Jun-07-01 12:26 PM

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42. "RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?"
In response to Reply # 38


          

I'm not hebrew because was born in North Carolina and my family tree traces back to Ethopia. However, because I do believe Jesus, I know that I don't have to be hebrew to accept the benefits of salvation and follow Christ.

Are you hebrew?

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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KAS19

Fri Jun-08-01 08:06 AM

  
111. "RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?"
In response to Reply # 42


          

i'm not hebrew,but i'm a descendant of hebrews(which translates to traveler,from the cunieform"ibriy")like a lot of blacks are.the reason why i asked that is because jesus wasn't christian.he was hebrew.and if christians are truly to be "christ-like",why don't they follow the religion that he followed?

  

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mthompkins

Wed Jun-13-01 08:19 AM

  
194. "RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?"
In response to Reply # 111


          

"the reason why i asked that is because jesus wasn't christian.he was hebrew.and if christians are truly to be "christ-like",why don't they follow the religion that he followed? "

What is your definition of Hebrew? Are you a Hebrew because you are a descendant of Abraham, the father of the Hebrew people? If this is so, then as a follower of Jesus Christ, I too am Hebrew, according to that definition.

It says in the book of Galatians 3:27-29 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ(Christ from the greek word "Christos" which means the anointed One and His anointing)have put on Christ. There is neither Jew(Hebrew) nor Greek(non-jew), there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are YE ABRAHAM'S SEED, and heirs according to the promise."

So according to this scripture, I am Hebrew. But you may say then, why do I call myself Christian. Well first of all, the first Christians didn't call themselves Christians, they called themselves Jews. But because of persecution by the Jews, the Roman government refused to recogonize them as Jewish people because they followed Christ who the Jews considered to be a false prophet. But to give them a name so they could be identified, the Roman people started calling them Christ-ians or Christ like ones. People who are Christ wanna-bees so to speak. It was actually meant to be derogatory but the name stuck because these "Jesus following" Jews and gentiles accepted the truth that they did want to be Christ wanna-bees. Apostle Paul commanded the saints to follow him as he followed Christ. The word follow coming from the greek word "mimeomai" which means to imitate.
So we stuck with the name Christian which just simple says we are imitators of Christ. You say that Christ followed Jewish law. He had to or else he would have sinned and would be disqualified from being a sacrifice for all men. Jesus being the sacrifice and making the way for His followers to have the Spirit of God, there were a lot of things in the Law that no longer applies to us. The law was given to the Jews on tablets. But now that we have the Holy Spirit, the law of God is in our hearts. God has made me righteous with Him, without the law. Because the law couldn't make me right with God because in order to do that I would have had to keep all His commandment perfectly without making a mistake. This of course was impossible for mankind. So God got someone else to keep all the commandments and be the final sacrifice. And then for us who believe in Jesus, we are in Him and heir to all the promises made to Abraham. So I am the seed of Abraham. Not by birth, but by adoption. But I will continue to call myself Christian so that people will know that I am follower of Christ, not the Law of Moses.

So in a sense, I still follow the same beliefs of the Hebrew people. I still worship the same God. But I don't follow Jewish law because the law could not make me right with God. Adam, before he sinned, never followed the law, yet He was right with God. Abraham, 2000 years later, also never followed the law. The bible says he simply believed God and it was accounted unto him for righteousness. Isaac, Jacob, nor his 12 sons followed the law. So the law came in for a short time. The bible says that the purpose of the Law of Moses was to serve as a tutor and govenor over the Jewish people until a certain time as appointed by the Father(Galatians 4:1-3). So for 1500 years or so, Hebrew people remained under this tutor until the fullness of time had come and salvation had come into the world. The only thing which seperates Christianity and Judaism(as most people know it) is the Law of Moses. But we are not of the faith of Moses, we are of the faith of Abraham, who did not have the law of Moses. Being of the faith of Abraham means we get our righteouness or right standing with God the same way he did, by believing.

  

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gnutron

Thu Jun-07-01 10:13 AM

  
13. "RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

my main beef with Christianity comes when i see black and asian folk believing. i believe in the power of belief, so i'm not trying to belittle the legitimacy of anyone's religion or beliefs. but when a religion is so blatantly colonizing, it just irks me. i was raised as a jew. although i don't "believe" in jewish theology, i still feel it is important for me to respect and understand the theology and philosophy as the modes of thought which governed my ancestors' beliefs. i feel i am jewish by descent, not by belief. the bottom line is that i think it's ill to believe in a god that was pushed upon your people, a god that was not the god of your ancestors. following the teachings of Christ is one thing, following Christianity is another.

  

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Apocalypse
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Thu Jun-07-01 11:44 AM

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25. "RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?"
In response to Reply # 13


          

The teachings of Christ is true Christianity, something that the world has seen very little of, sad to say. By the way, what are the teachings of Christ?

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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g_mick

Thu Jun-07-01 12:10 PM

  
33. "RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?"
In response to Reply # 13


          

Allah is a Black Man
The Black Man is God
Jesus is White
Christians created slavery....STFU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All of this pseudo-intellectual religiosity is for the birds.
God isn't about how your practice your religious beliefs. God is about how you experience Him in his true nature. To continue to discredit or try to prove which religion is more right than the other is an excercise in futility.

There are selfish, self serving "religion"mongers in every religious sect in the world, including yours. Liken it to HipHop. Just cause you can write some words that rhyme, don't make you a Lyricist. Just cause you call yourself a Chrisitan or Muslim or a Jew or a Buddihst don't mean you know God any better than anybody else.

So-called Chrisitans went to Africa made Africans accept slavery as a part of Christianity. Mohammed ran thru the desert and killed anybody who didnt accept Islam. The Spanish Inquistion. The Salem Witchtrials. DAMN!!!!

Experience GOD FOR YOURSELF...I really don't think its a matter of how you get God....JUST GET GOD...all religion is man-made rituals and practices...get over it.

I met God in the Christian Experience. I believe in the Trinity and the 3 in 1.

I experienced Jesus for myself. I know the Wonder working power of praying in Jesus' name. My soul is satisfied. Satisfy yours. If Allah moves and gives you the piece of mind and joy that you need to get thru life....THEN MUV ON IT!!!!



I hope you feel me like you feel yo Pastor! (c) Slum Village
***************************************
Fuck saying my name, You can read it in the credits! (c) De La

  

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Apocalypse
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Thu Jun-07-01 12:20 PM

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37. "RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?"
In response to Reply # 33


          

>So-called Chrisitans went to Africa made
>Africans accept slavery as a
>part of Christianity. Mohammed
>ran thru the desert and
>killed anybody who didnt accept
>Islam. The Spanish Inquistion. The
>Salem Witchtrials. DAMN!!!!
>I met God in the Christian
>Experience. I believe in
>the Trinity and the 3
>in 1.
>
>I experienced Jesus for myself.
>I know the Wonder working
>power of praying in Jesus'
>name. My soul is
>satisfied. Satisfy yours.
>If Allah moves and gives
>you the piece of mind
>and joy that you need
>to get thru life....THEN MUV
>ON IT!!!!

In the truest sense of the word and the Early Church, you can't possibly call the Klan, people who kidnapped Africans and enslaved them, Nazis, etc. Christians. I understand that there were instances of slavery in the Bible, but that is a testament to the Roman system and the culture then than it is who Christ is, and that's the most important issue.


Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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mcbadfeet
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Thu Jun-07-01 12:22 PM

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39. "well now that that's been cleared up...."
In response to Reply # 33


          

________________________________________
-representin the real since tuesday
-illified illustrated.word.fresh.

FROM THE GROUND UP- ROOTS 2nd CD- BUY NOW: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000073F6/qid=989953006/sr=1-1/202-6163542-0903066


OKAY...now i am recognizin that the choice to rhyme for self is urgin me to to put the wealth not quite as high upon the shelf/ for me wisdom is decisions made aside from what ya'll like/ so just clean up all of your ears/ these are my views and you will find that/we revolutionize it with the kick and the snare.....(c)thisghettovocalist

MY LATEST RAP ALIASES- mcbadfeet aka: the mayor goldie wilson of rap, aka big chris the juicebox, aka jesus jones retired messiah, aka the black jamie lawson of rap, aka thurgood killabitch the IV, aka brooklyn jackson from queens, aka homer pimpson, aka alex p. cheatin, aka benny ill, aka stank sinatra, aka michael j. rocks

  

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Shelly
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Thu Jun-07-01 10:24 AM

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16. "I want my 5% back !!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

You are on the right path to a hot bottom. Shrek

Shit happens

  

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Nettrice
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Thu Jun-07-01 12:01 PM

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29. "RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I was raised Baptist (Christian), baptised when I was 7, and I was very active in church until I was 17. I read the entire Bible when I was 17. I still felt like there was something missing. In fact, I felt disconnected and lost. I read the scriptures and prayed a lot but I needed more. I needed something that addressed me as an individual, addressed my personal experience.

It's like I had a serious problem and I was listening and reading scripture that was good as a general recommendation but it did not address what I was experiencing. I needed to know my purpose, my path.

Church was a way to give of my time (service). I decided to take my issues to God, one-on-one. Soon I started noticing that whenever I prayed, I would have answers and I discovered my purpose.

That being said, I do not have a beef with Christianity specifically. I do find that religion, in general, has little meaning for me as an individual. I understand that many people need it for guidance. However, I made my one-on-one connection spiritually and I live a great life.

For me Christianity missed the boat on providing contemporary answers, on how to turn obstacles into opportunities, how to deal effectively with adversity, etc.

"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix"

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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Apocalypse
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Thu Jun-07-01 12:09 PM

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32. "RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?"
In response to Reply # 29


          

I agree with you that it's important to know thyself. Before I gave my life to Christ, I knew myself, or as much as i could considering my age. But Christ definately made a difference. I disagree that the Bible is not a practical book, but if all you do is read it you will not understand. It takes studying and a relationship with Christ to uncover the depths of it.

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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Nettrice
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Thu Jun-07-01 01:53 PM

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58. "I do have a relationship"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

I have a personal, intimate relationship with God and a connection with what I am sure is my Divine purpose. I believe that Christ was one of the most important prophets that existed ever but I don't need an intermediary between me and God.

I did more than just read the Bible and I even learned from Christian teachings but it was not practical for me when I needed it most. I was a half step from suicide nearly twenty years ago. I made one last reach, on my own, from my mother's kitchen and I have always felt spiritually connected ever since.

Christianity is used to separate people from other people, other groups and sometimes themselves. It is not supposed to address individuality but give people guidance and something to follow or belong to.

I am suggesting that some people need more than that. I am suggesting that the answers aren't always found in religion or religious dogma. I will always reflect my Christian upbringing in how I choose to live my life but my purpose is more that what other people have written about or preached or teached about.

"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix"

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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Apocalypse
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Thu Jun-07-01 07:56 PM

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78. "RE: I do have a relationship"
In response to Reply # 58


          

>I believe that Christ was
>one of the most important
>prophets that existed ever but
>I don't need an intermediary
>between me and God.

Please support your reducing Christ to a prophet, considering the magnitude of His statements. Also, the book that you quoted devotes over half of itself to discussing Christ as an intermediary with God. We aren't selective in our believe are we? Scripture is to fluid and connected for that.

>Christianity is used to separate people
>from other people, other groups
>and sometimes themselves. It
>is not supposed to address
>individuality but give people guidance
>and something to follow or
>belong to.

Okay, and knives are used to carve turkey and kill people, but what's wrong with the knife? Check my signature, "When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable." That's fitting here, don't you think . . .

Your testimony is gripping and deep. My point is this, negative experiences can't be used as cards of judgment. I don't claim to know everything there is to know about Christianity, but I do know enough to support what I believe.

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"Hope can be a terrible thing when fate is inevitable" ~ Me

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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Nettrice
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Fri Jun-08-01 06:02 AM

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88. "RE: I do have a relationship"
In response to Reply # 78


  

          

>Please support your reducing Christ to
>a prophet, considering the magnitude
>of His statements. Also, the
>book that you quoted devotes
>over half of itself to
>discussing Christ as an intermediary
>with God. We aren't selective
>in our believe are we?
>Scripture is to fluid and
>connected for that.

Christ, Buddha, Muhammad, etc. have all moved thousand or millions to believe in and support some sort of religion- from Christianity to Islam. I am not reducing Christ at all. He was a man and he was a prophet. Christians see this man as God's son. Jewish people do not. Muslims see Muhammad as the one sent by God.

People put a lot of faith in men's words. The Bible is a great book, with inspiring stories and scriptures for people and groups to use as they see fit. Man created the Bible based on inspiration and the original meanings are lost to interpretation. No man or woman will never be God.

I quote a lot of things that have meaning for me: the Bible, The Matrix, Harry Potter, etc. But I am not trying to start a new religion based on my inspiration. I have my personal connection to God and spirit and that's enough for me. I am not trying to push my beliefs on others. I don't need to be followed or supported by other people. In turn, I do not follow or support other people's religions.

>Your testimony is gripping and deep.
>My point is this, negative
>experiences can't be used as
>cards of judgment. I don't
>claim to know everything there
>is to know about Christianity,
>but I do know enough
>to support what I believe.

All I am saying is that church and religion only helped me to a certain point. I had to go the rest of the way by myself in order to heal and save myself from giving up. I don't have negative opinions about Christianity but I am real about what I have experienced and how I have been able to overcome adversity (with religion as a foundation towards personal/life success).


"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix"

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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Apocalypse
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Fri Jun-08-01 07:33 AM

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103. "RE: I do have a relationship"
In response to Reply # 88


          

>Christ, Buddha, Muhammad, etc. have all
>moved thousand or millions to
>believe in and support some
>sort of religion- from Christianity
>to Islam. I am
>not reducing Christ at all.
> He was a man
>and he was a prophet.
> Christians see this man
>as God's son. Jewish
>people do not. Muslims
>see Muhammad as the one
>sent by God.
>People put a lot of faith
>in men's words. The
>Bible is a great book,
>with inspiring stories and scriptures
>for people and groups to
>use as they see fit.
> Man created the Bible
>based on inspiration and the
>original meanings are lost to
>interpretation. No man or
>woman will never be God.

I challenge you to do a background study on Christ, his teachings, His history, and the inerrancy of Scripture. In fact, there's a great book called Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell that would be a good place to start. If you look at Christ's teaching, if he were just a man, a prophet, etc. then none, absolutly none of what he said, did or stood for was true and he was the biggest liar, lunatic, con artist, and demon that ever graced the face of the earth. Everything that he said of himself had to be true or nothing was true. Oh yeah, realize that the New Testament has more original manuscripts still existing today than any other work of antiquity (over 22,000), second is the Iliad with 640.

Question: do you believe in the Resurrection?


Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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Nettrice
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Fri Jun-08-01 08:59 AM

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120. "RE: I do have a relationship"
In response to Reply # 103


  

          

>I challenge you to do a
>background study on Christ, his
>teachings, His history, and the
>inerrancy of Scripture.

I did study...for 17 years. I went to Bible study, to Sunday school, vacation Bible school, etc. I read the Bible, joined Bible study groups as a teen and talked to others about the teachings of Christ. My mother has a degree in philosophy with a focus on theology.

One day, when I was a teen, I began to ask questions in Bible study that people could not answer. They would give me scriptures and they did not answer my questions. My mother was mentally ill, my father violent and unsupportive. My family was unsupportive and I was alone. The church was supportive to an extent and I found some inspiration in the Bible. There were Biblical references that implored me, the reader, to seek God, not in other men but in myself.

>If you look at
>Christ's teaching, if he were
>just a man, a prophet,
>etc. then none, absolutly none
>of what he said, did
>or stood for was true
>and he was the biggest
>liar, lunatic, con artist, and
>demon that ever graced the
>face of the earth. Everything
>that he said of himself
>had to be true or
>nothing was true.

How do you know what Jesus said? Were you there or did someone hear and interpret what he said? Men interpreted what Christ said and these points of view, their writings became the New Testament.

Reading, analyzing, and interpreting religious text/doctrine is one thing. Joining one religion because another person or group claim it's more righteous is another thing. Living my life according to what I believe is Divine purpose is another. My purpose is to know how I need to live my life in order to find peace, love and joy. This is the most important thing.

>Question: do you believe in the
>Resurrection?

See above. Living my life according to what I believe is Divine purpose is another. My purpose is to know how I need to live my life in order to find peace, love and joy. I have faith that I am connected to God and to spirit. I have faith that I am taken care of through that connection. I leave everything else to God and to those who need to believe in the resurrection of Christ/Christianity and other religions. I believe in my faith.

I guess I am too much of an individual to follow Christian/religious doctrine but I am not afraid to find inspiration in the teachings of Christ and the Bible, along with other teachings and other religions and other books.

"Know thyself"

"Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you". So we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
-- Hebrews 13:5,6

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix"

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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Mr Mystery
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60. "hit it on the head"
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

I was brought up the same way, but i didn't notice any affects until i really started having a 1 on 1 relationship with GOD, i feel that if you were made in GOD'S image and he is in you,I mean it's already in you. Meaning that the more i get to understand about myself the closer i get to GOD, because he is already a part of me and many times the voice of GOD is the voice of my conscience. I think many times people have used christianity for the wrong reasons, and personally i think organized religion sucks,b/c people join for the wrong reasons, most people are just like "well i don't want to go to hell, or i like the choir" and i think GOD is really a personal thing. PEACE

Thought provoking records radio never played them-Dre 3000

Brothers and others outside my door want to despise me reminds me that everyone ain't cool the world is jealous never could understand when my momma use to tell us don't take your food outside around your friends unless you got enough to feed the neighborhood"-Dre 3000

Why, must we fly so low? Are we afraid of heights, do kites get lost in the tow.-Dre 3000

Don't get caught up in my chains, or the way that I speak seek intelligence...-Big Face Ghost

Woolly hair, eyes fiery red feet made of brass twelve men, following me it be the God staff.-Big Face Ghost

God is my Bodyguard!

Torn between saturday night and early sunday morn, I don't know i'm somewhere stuck in between(tween)!-Dre 3000

  

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Editor
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Thu Jun-07-01 12:12 PM

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34. "RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

What good has ever come from Christianity? Throughout history your belief has done nothing but segregate, oppress, and even kill people for having their own minds. Your leaders can't keep their hands off of little boys and nuns. The more I think about it the more I dislike your "False god worship". Your people feel "it's ok to kill in the name of GOD" for example..abortion clincs!!!!!!! Fake ass people!!!!!

"The fact of the matter is a matter of fact" -Black Thought

"I can make a 80yard dash and come back fast, wack rappers are left in the back like a jackass"-Kool G Rap

**This goes out to my NIGGA MalcomX**-NAS (idiot)

  

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Apocalypse
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Thu Jun-07-01 12:24 PM

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40. "RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?"
In response to Reply # 34


          

Until you come with NUMEROUS examples of not only Christians, but other faiths that don't have people that are morally wrong, you don't even know how ignorant you sound. Not because you disagree, but because you are making a blanket statement based on your world and your experiences and while they are valid, they do not provide the standard for all people. What about the Christians that are against abortion (like me), love and respect their wives and families, raise their children with respect ofr others, contribute to the development of society, and help those less fortunate? Again, what you are describing is not real Christianity. I agree there are people that call themselves Christians, yet carry no characteristics of Christ, but to generalize all because of a few is very narrow-minded. This post is not to solicit disrespect, just to discuss, Okay, player?

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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Editor
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Thu Jun-07-01 12:43 PM

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45. "RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?"
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

>Until you come with NUMEROUS examples
>of not only Christians, but
>other faiths that don't have
>people that are morally wrong,
>you don't even know how
>ignorant you sound. Not because
>you disagree, but because you
>are making a blanket statement
>based on your world and
>your experiences and while they
>are valid, they do not
>provide the standard for all
>people. What about the Christians
>that are against abortion (like
>me), love and respect their
>wives and families, raise their
>children with respect ofr others,
>contribute to the development of
>society, and help those less
>fortunate? Again, what you are
>describing is not real Christianity.
>I agree there are people
>that call themselves Christians, yet
>carry no characteristics of Christ,
>but to generalize all because
>of a few is very
>narrow-minded. This post is not
>to solicit disrespect, just to
>discuss, Okay, player?
>
>Apocalypse
>
>"When purpose is not known, abuse
>is inevitable . . ."
>
First of all why do I need to bring other religons into this. You asked the question and I gave you my answer! If you don't like it, then maybe you should address your fellow worshipers. To give a blanket statment or to generalize is not right. For that point I will stand corrected. But if I'm not describing "True Christianity" (which your right) I'm describing the "Hypocrisy of Christianity" Wasn't your post based on what we don't like about it? Well I don't like child molesters of any faith. But when you use something as righteous as the beleif in something holy to commit such acts, then I hope they burn in hell-hahaha Look I'm not trying to disrespect you as a person or your belief in something (real or not). What ever keeps you on the path of being a righteous indiviual then so be it. But don't ask questions you don't want the answer to!

"The fact of the matter is a matter of fact" -Black Thought

"I can make a 80yard dash and come back fast, wack rappers are left in the back like a jackass"-Kool G Rap

**This goes out to my NIGGA MalcomX**-NAS (idiot)

  

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Apocalypse
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46. "RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?"
In response to Reply # 45


          

i appreciate your answer, we just had a misunderstanding. Good lookin . . .

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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utamaroho

Thu Jun-07-01 12:41 PM

  
44. "RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Ya Setshego is brilliant, and you all should heed every word she types!!!!!!!




(((((PEACE)))))
____________________________________________________________
"Considering the fact that Islam is a disgrace to human kind, Christianity is a disgrace to everything in the universe, Judiasm is just one confusing mess, and the rest of em are all praying to aliens from outer space. I say we have a religion where the only rule is that you know how to roll a Garcia Vega. Ya know? And if I can't be god, can I be one of the people who gets to make hypocritical rules and then not follow them like them stinking Catholics? Please, pretty please, with the Annunaki on top?" -ish_skywalker


  

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utamaroho

Thu Jun-07-01 12:55 PM

  
47. "RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?"
In response to Reply # 44


          

that's what i get for letting others look at okayplayer while i'm logged in...oh well lesson learned.

  

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utamaroho

Thu Jun-07-01 12:57 PM

  
48. "check the sig though..."
In response to Reply # 44


          

(((((PEACE)))))
____________________________________________________________
"Considering the fact that Islam is a disgrace to human kind, Christianity is a disgrace to everything in the universe, Judiasm is just one confusing mess, and the rest of em are all praying to aliens from outer space. I say we have a religion where the only rule is that you know how to roll a Garcia Vega. Ya know? And if I can't be god, can I be one of the people who gets to make hypocritical rules and then not follow them like them stinking Catholics? Please, pretty please, with the Annunaki on top?" -ish_skywalker


  

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Apocalypse
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49. "RE: check the sig though..."
In response to Reply # 48


          

interesting sig . . .

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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Editor
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Thu Jun-07-01 01:14 PM

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51. "RE: check the sig though..."
In response to Reply # 48


  

          

>(((((PEACE)))))
>____________________________________________________________
>"Considering the fact that Islam is
>a disgrace to human kind,
>Christianity is a disgrace to
>everything in the universe, Judiasm
>is just one confusing mess,
>and the rest of em
>are all praying to aliens
>from outer space. I say
>we have a religion where
>the only rule is that
>you know how to roll
>a Garcia Vega. Ya know?
>And if I can't be
>god, can I be one
>of the people who gets
>to make hypocritical rules and
>then not follow them like
>them stinking Catholics? Please, pretty
>please, with the Annunaki on
>top?" -ish_skywalker


Now that was funny!!!!!!!!!!LMAO
Yeah "GOD" I got ya back and i'll write the book for fools to kill over-haha

"The fact of the matter is a matter of fact" -Black Thought

"I can make a 80yard dash and come back fast, wack rappers are left in the back like a jackass"-Kool G Rap

**This goes out to my NIGGA MalcomX**-NAS (idiot)

  

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loryn
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Thu Jun-07-01 01:37 PM

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53. "the problem is this:"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I think the main issue that people have with Christianity is the religion and not the spirituality behind it.

By that I mean that people get caught up with the religious dogma that they have came in contact with in society and in their own lives.

Those that blow up abortion clinics are religious, not spiritual.

Those on channel 40 that only say that feminists, homosexuals, those who have abortions, etc. are going to hell--period--are religious, not spiritual.

Those nuns and priests that molest children are relgious, not spiritual (not to mention hellbound)

The crusaders, the Papacy of Rome, and the Pope (now and then)? Religious but not spiritual.

These are all people who think that if they put on the appearance of Christian "godliness" while condemning those "demons" living in the world, they have a one way ticket to heaven.

They don't.

I see myself as a spiritual Christian in a sense that I do not buy into the dogma.

My church, West Angeles, is part of the Church of God in Christ.

This denomination says that women cannot wear pants to church, cannot wear too much makeup, and cannot be ordained as bishops.

Bull defecation.

When I get to heaven, God isn't gonna be like, "Did you wear a skirt in the sanctuary?"

He's going to ask, "Did you worship me in spirit and in truth? Did you show the love of Christ to all you meet? Did you live as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable?"

Whether or not I wore a skirt is invalid when it comes to God's purpose for our lives. He looks at our hearts. Religion looks on the outward man.

I leave you with this:

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities, against powers, against rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places"--Ephesians 6: 12

That is the definition of a spiritual Christian, knowing that this war is bigger than just people. It is the spirits of man and the forces of satan that are on this earth that the believer is really up against.

It ain't about the person that blows up an abortion clinic. It's the spirit that provokes him/her. Same with the nun that molests the child. And the crusaders....

Apocalypse, I applaud you for bringing up this topic. I was ready for a discussion that wasn't all about bashing Christianity, but instead finding answers.


That is all.

-Loryn

There's a new day comin (it looks just like me)
The sun bursts through the clouds (my photo id)--mos def

I stopped coming my brain so my thoughts could lock--saul williams

ask away http://www.formspring.me/elledub

http://www.loryncwilson.com

tweet me up: @elledub_1920

  

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loryn
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54. "addendum"
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

and I'm getting rahter tired of the word "Christian"

usually (this post is an exception) I usually say that I am a believer or that I am a child of God.

You can be a Christian and do very evil, hypocritical things.

-Loryn

There's a new day comin (it look just like me)
The sun bursts through the clouds(my photo id)-mos def

I stopped coming my brain so my thoughts could lock-saul williams

ask away http://www.formspring.me/elledub

http://www.loryncwilson.com

tweet me up: @elledub_1920

  

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mcbadfeet
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Thu Jun-07-01 01:50 PM

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56. "RE: addendum"
In response to Reply # 54


          

________________________________________
-representin the real since tuesday
-illified illustrated.word.fresh.

FROM THE GROUND UP- ROOTS 2nd CD- BUY NOW: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000073F6/qid=989953006/sr=1-1/202-6163542-0903066


OKAY...now i am recognizin that the choice to rhyme for self is urgin me to to put the wealth not quite as high upon the shelf/ for me wisdom is decisions made aside from what ya'll like/ so just clean up all of your ears/ these are my views and you will find that/we revolutionize it with the kick and the snare.....(c)thisghettovocalist

MY LATEST RAP ALIASES- mcbadfeet aka: the mayor goldie wilson of rap, aka big chris the juicebox, aka jesus jones retired messiah, aka the black jamie lawson of rap, aka thurgood killabitch the IV, aka brooklyn jackson from queens, aka homer pimpson, aka alex p. cheatin, aka benny ill, aka stank sinatra, aka michael j. rocks

  

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wonluv
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Fri Jun-08-01 06:05 AM

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89. "Look at the denotative meaning"
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

to be Christian is to be like Christ. if a so called Christian does not fit the denotative meaning of this word, then he/she is false flagging.

what does it mean to be Christ-like? to follow His teachings. to look to God for guidance. to love all people, regardless of their color, sins, or situation.

the term is used too loosely. i think Christians need to re-evaluate the title that they claim, what it truly means, and try to line their lives up to that meaning.

peace

******************************************************************
"i write to let my soul fly higher, while ya'll defeatin' the purpose like black highlighters"-wonluv

~sicknature~ My financial skills/discipline need Jesus. -J-Skivvy

****We need more Pharoahe Monch!!!****

  

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Apocalypse
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Fri Jun-08-01 07:27 AM

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100. "RE: Look at the denotative meaning"
In response to Reply # 89


          

That's the point I've been trying to make, thank you. Though you have some poor representation of Christianity, that isn't Chrsitianity. False Flagging indeed!

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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mcbadfeet
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Thu Jun-07-01 01:47 PM

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55. "felt that but........"
In response to Reply # 53


          

Without the dogma and the rules it's not Christianity. Is it?
If you don't beleive that I'm going to go to hell because I refuse to confess with my mouth that Jesus is my Lord and Savior then can you be a Christian? Are you a Christian if you don't believe that Ghandi's soul is burning in Hell right now? Along with Shaka Zulu, Malcolm X, Jimi Hendrix, My father, and a shit load of African's that lived within the tradition that was passed to them by their ancestors?

Im not telling who you are or what you believe. I'm sincerely asking these questions of you.
________________________________________
-representin the real since tuesday
-illified illustrated.word.fresh.

FROM THE GROUND UP- ROOTS 2nd CD- BUY NOW: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000073F6/qid=989953006/sr=1-1/202-6163542-0903066


OKAY...now i am recognizin that the choice to rhyme for self is urgin me to to put the wealth not quite as high upon the shelf/ for me wisdom is decisions made aside from what ya'll like/ so just clean up all of your ears/ these are my views and you will find that/we revolutionize it with the kick and the snare.....(c)thisghettovocalist

MY LATEST RAP ALIASES- mcbadfeet aka: the mayor goldie wilson of rap, aka big chris the juicebox, aka jesus jones retired messiah, aka the black jamie lawson of rap, aka thurgood killabitch the IV, aka brooklyn jackson from queens, aka homer pimpson, aka alex p. cheatin, aka benny ill, aka stank sinatra, aka michael j. rocks

  

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loryn
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61. "you misunderstood me."
In response to Reply # 55


  

          

By dogma I did not mean the Bible.

I meant the man made rules that people tack on to their denominations(which, in my opinion are another thing that must be demolished in Christianity. Jesus never asked "are you Baptist?" when someone needed healing. he asked, "do you believe?")

The rules that say I can't wear some slacks instead a dress and a blouse to church.

The rules that say I must confess my sins to a man (HA!) instead of going straight to the Father(or the Mother---yeah, God may just be a woman---but I think it's more likely that God is genderless--we were made in his image).

When did God tell them that this was S/He wanted?

you feel me?

-Loryn

There's a new day comin (it looks just like me)
the sun bursts through the clouds (my photo id)-most def

I stopped coming my brain so my thoughts could lock-saul williams


ask away http://www.formspring.me/elledub

http://www.loryncwilson.com

tweet me up: @elledub_1920

  

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mcbadfeet
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63. "OK."
In response to Reply # 61


          

>By dogma I did not mean
>the Bible.

Still you didn't answer my questions.

>I meant the man made rules
>that people tack on to
>their denominations(which, in my opinion
>are another thing that must
>be demolished in Christianity. Jesus
>never asked "are you Baptist?"
>when someone needed healing. he
>asked, "do you believe?")

No difference between to two in my book. If Christ heals selectively then why can't a baptist?


>The rules that say I can't
>wear some slacks instead a
>dress and a blouse to
>church.
>
>The rules that say I must
>confess my sins to a
>man (HA!) instead of going
>straight to the Father(or the
>Mother---yeah, God may just be
>a woman---but I think it's
>more likely that God is
>genderless--we were made in his
>image).

Still the same to me. If you are willing to follow the rule that you must confess at all...then why not confess only to a man if thats the rule??

>When did God tell them that
>this was S/He wanted?
>
>you feel me?


Do YOU feel ME?

________________________________________
-representin the real since tuesday
-illified illustrated.word.fresh.

FROM THE GROUND UP- ROOTS 2nd CD- BUY NOW: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000073F6/qid=989953006/sr=1-1/202-6163542-0903066


OKAY...now i am recognizin that the choice to rhyme for self is urgin me to to put the wealth not quite as high upon the shelf/ for me wisdom is decisions made aside from what ya'll like/ so just clean up all of your ears/ these are my views and you will find that/we revolutionize it with the kick and the snare.....(c)thisghettovocalist

MY LATEST RAP ALIASES- mcbadfeet aka: the mayor goldie wilson of rap, aka big chris the juicebox, aka jesus jones retired messiah, aka the black jamie lawson of rap, aka thurgood killabitch the IV, aka brooklyn jackson from queens, aka homer pimpson, aka alex p. cheatin, aka benny ill, aka stank sinatra, aka michael j. rocks

  

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loryn
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67. "*sigh*"
In response to Reply # 63


  

          



>No difference between to two in
>my book. If Christ heals
>selectively then why can't a
>baptist?


what proof do you have that Christ healed selectively? I think one WOULD have to believe.......and that really is different from being a Baptist.




>Still the same to me. If
>you are willing to follow
>the rule that you must
>confess at all...then why not
>confess only to a man
>if thats the rule??

What you are forgetting is that we are to confess our sins TO GOD in the end--it is not a human that we must answer to on Judgement Day.

Why would you confess alllll your sins to regular man when you can go straight to God?

Do YOU feel ME?

no, not really--see above.

There's a new day comin (it looks just like me)
the sun bursts through the clouds(my photo id)-Mos Def

I stopped combing my brain so my thoughts could lock-Saul Williams

ask away http://www.formspring.me/elledub

http://www.loryncwilson.com

tweet me up: @elledub_1920

  

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mcbadfeet
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87. "RE: *sigh* -ditto"
In response to Reply # 67


          

>what proof do you have that
>Christ healed selectively? I think
>one WOULD have to believe.......and
>that really is different from
>being a Baptist.

You typed that Christ only heals those who believe. How is that not being selective?


>What you are forgetting is that
>we are to confess our
>sins TO GOD in the
>end--it is not a human
>that we must answer to
>on Judgement Day.

Not forgetting anything. Judgement day is every day. And if it is important for you to confess then confess to whomever you choose. But it is funny for me to hear people complain about rules that they don't agree with regarding religion, and then defend the rest of the rules. Why have to confess at all? Didn't God see you do it? Or if He just wants you to acknowledge the bad deeds then why not just think your confession? You know Jesus can read minds don't you.

Im not tryin to convince you either way. Do you, but know that Baptist are doin them. Maybe yall just don't need to do any of it together.


________________________________________
-representin the real since tuesday
-illified illustrated.word.fresh.

FROM THE GROUND UP- ROOTS 2nd CD- BUY NOW: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000073F6/qid=989953006/sr=1-1/202-6163542-0903066


OKAY...now i am recognizin that the choice to rhyme for self is urgin me to to put the wealth not quite as high upon the shelf/ for me wisdom is decisions made aside from what ya'll like/ so just clean up all of your ears/ these are my views and you will find that/we revolutionize it with the kick and the snare.....(c)thisghettovocalist

MY LATEST RAP ALIASES- mcbadfeet aka: the mayor goldie wilson of rap, aka big chris the juicebox, aka jesus jones retired messiah, aka the black jamie lawson of rap, aka thurgood killabitch the IV, aka brooklyn jackson from queens, aka homer pimpson, aka alex p. cheatin, aka benny ill, aka stank sinatra, aka michael j. rocks

  

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loryn
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131. "RE: *sigh* -ditto"
In response to Reply # 87


  

          

>
>Im not tryin to convince you
>either way. Do you, but
>know that Baptist are doin
>them. Maybe yall just don't
>need to do any of
>it together.


you probably have a point there. there are huge differences between the denominations.

that's why there's so much division in the church.

thanks for not trying to convince me.


ask away http://www.formspring.me/elledub

http://www.loryncwilson.com

tweet me up: @elledub_1920

  

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IllipticallyDefined

Thu Jun-07-01 07:26 PM

  
75. "RE: felt that but........"
In response to Reply # 55


          

I don't believe in Christianity, I believe in Christ... like common said, religions are like cultures around the world, different cultures spring up in different areas, and religions are just the same, God revealed himself to the jews, God was revealed throught buddah to the east, God was revealed to the Arabs in Islam... no your not going to hell, stop listening to those fire breathing dragon preachers on the corner of your block, they are fools gold...

  

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Apocalypse
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Thu Jun-07-01 08:02 PM

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79. "RE: felt that but........"
In response to Reply # 55


          

Christianity is not predicated on who will go to heaven or hell, but a relationship with Jesus Christ. We are not in a position to determine who goes where, or for that matter who is or isn't saved. There are criteria for salvation, heaven, hell, etc., but we can't fully say, this person is in hell, this person's going, etc. My point is this, a relationship with Christ is not about do's and don'ts, but rather submitting to his Lordship.

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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mcbadfeet
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Fri Jun-08-01 06:09 AM

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90. "2 both of you."
In response to Reply # 79


          

Im not afraid of going to Hell. Not in the least. Cuz hell isn't a destination on any map in this universe. But it bothers me when those who consider them selves Christian, can just buy half the story. If Jesus is it, and humans need salvation, then Heaven exists. And if Heaven exists then Hell exists. God don't like to waste space so Hell has gotta be stocked. This is apart of the Belief as far as I'm concerned. But in the interests of appearance folks front like every body that isn't Christian aint goin to Hell accorfing to the doctrine. I am not a scholar of the Bible, but one doesn't have to be to know how the salvation/damnation thang works.- Unless I've been hoodwinked by all the atheist propaganda. Still love yall.
____________________________________
-representin the real since tuesday
-illified illustrated.word.fresh.

FROM THE GROUND UP- ROOTS 2nd CD- BUY NOW: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000073F6/qid=989953006/sr=1-1/202-6163542-0903066


OKAY...now i am recognizin that the choice to rhyme for self is urgin me to to put the wealth not quite as high upon the shelf/ for me wisdom is decisions made aside from what ya'll like/ so just clean up all of your ears/ these are my views and you will find that/we revolutionize it with the kick and the snare.....(c)thisghettovocalist

MY LATEST RAP ALIASES- mcbadfeet aka: the mayor goldie wilson of rap, aka big chris the juicebox, aka jesus jones retired messiah, aka the black jamie lawson of rap, aka thurgood killabitch the IV, aka brooklyn jackson from queens, aka homer pimpson, aka alex p. cheatin, aka benny ill, aka stank sinatra, aka michael j. rocks

  

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Apocalypse
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Fri Jun-08-01 06:58 AM

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92. "RE: 2 both of you."
In response to Reply # 90


          

I'm not denying that hell exists, heaven exists, or my beliefs as to what it takes to get to them. I am simply stating that hell is not the focus of the doctrine. Contrary to popular beliefs, scare tactics is not the primary medium of conversion. Hell is a part of the doctrine, but not the focus; Christ is. Most of the posts on this thread have eventually made its way to whether or not hell exists, who goes, etc. Hell is a major point of contention. But I have always asked myself this question:
If the rest of the world is right and I am wrong in my beliefs, I have lived a good life, helped others, maintained positivity, bettered my community, raised my family in the fear and admonition of God, and tried to the best of my ability to influence others in a positive way (I'm not saying that I am trying to do anything by works, this is a hypothetical). Therefore, based on most other belief systems that I have heard or experienced, I feel confident in "qualifying" for whatever positive eternal reward there is. But . . .

If my belief system is right and others are wrong, there are a lot of people that are screwed with a very hot screwdriver. Understand my point, my bases are covered. The reason I say this and the reason that people have such a problem with Christianity is because it is polarized, there are no grey areas, it's all or nothing, right or wrong. Again, I'm not a Christian because I fear hell or eternal punishment or because I crave eternal reward, but because I realized that I could live a better life, maximize my potential, and gloryfy and be used by God on earth to the fullest throught Christ, period.

Oh yeah, I think your discussion is very thought provoking, and I love you too . . .

"You better hope these Christians are wrong or you're going to hell!" ~ KRS-One, "Hot"

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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mcbadfeet
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Fri Jun-08-01 07:34 AM

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104. "RE: 2 both of you."
In response to Reply # 92


          

>I'm not denying that hell exists,
>heaven exists, or my beliefs
>as to what it takes
>to get to them. I
>am simply stating that hell
>is not the focus of
>the doctrine.

I understand that you believe what the Bible teaches, and that that the love of Jesus Christ,and what men could do if they were only to pattern themselves after this ultimate example of
compassionate humanity, is more important than the Heaven/Hell discussion- that the reward, and the journey to it should be the focus rather than what happens if you don't take that path. I get that. But you feel that way you do because you've already decided that the Bible is for you, remeber- either way you're covered.

But me, I won't join a healthclub because the front desk looks
nice. Or because on the tour they show me all the machines that work. I'm lookin in the locker rooms to see if the showers are moldy or if the lockers are large enough to hold all my stuff.
Hell, and judgment aren't the posters for Christianity. But I'll be damned if folk try to act like it they aint sittin in the back room waitin.



>Oh yeah, I think your discussion
>is very thought provoking, and
>I love you too .
>. .
>
>"You better hope these Christians are
>wrong or you're going to
>hell!" ~ KRS-One, "Hot"


Take his quotes with a pillar of salt.

>Apocalypse

Later, if i don't get any work done im a get fired.


________________________________________
-representin the real since tuesday
-illified illustrated.word.fresh.

FROM THE GROUND UP- ROOTS 2nd CD- BUY NOW: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000073F6/qid=989953006/sr=1-1/202-6163542-0903066


OKAY...now i am recognizin that the choice to rhyme for self is urgin me to to put the wealth not quite as high upon the shelf/ for me wisdom is decisions made aside from what ya'll like/ so just clean up all of your ears/ these are my views and you will find that/we revolutionize it with the kick and the snare.....(c)thisghettovocalist

MY LATEST RAP ALIASES- mcbadfeet aka: the mayor goldie wilson of rap, aka big chris the juicebox, aka jesus jones retired messiah, aka the black jamie lawson of rap, aka thurgood killabitch the IV, aka brooklyn jackson from queens, aka homer pimpson, aka alex p. cheatin, aka benny ill, aka stank sinatra, aka michael j. rocks

  

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IllipticallyDefined

Fri Jun-08-01 06:55 PM

  
138. "RE: 2 both of you."
In response to Reply # 90


          

something i don't understand is the literal meanings of words in the bible, why are they taken so literal? like heaven and hell are two places that are confined w/ walls or some shit, you know that shit ain't true, heaven and hell are places but not places as we know places such as rooms and mansions...

  

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loryn
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132. "that's real too!"
In response to Reply # 79


  

          

>Christianity is not predicated on who
>will go to heaven or
>hell, but a relationship with
>Jesus Christ.

i never thought of it that way til i heard you say it.

My
>point is this, a relationship
>with Christ is not about
>do's and don'ts, but rather
>submitting to his Lordship.

as a spiritual person---mine is too.

i take it back.

it ain't up to me who goes to heaven or hell. God is the one in charge in the end (and in the beginning)

why does man feel the need to judge others in that way then? that's what i wanna know.

i told you i still have a lot to learn.

-Loryn

there's a new day comin(it looks just like me)
the sun bursts through the clouds(my photo id)-mos def

i stopped combing my brain so my thoughts could lock-saul williams

ask away http://www.formspring.me/elledub

http://www.loryncwilson.com

tweet me up: @elledub_1920

  

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AZ
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Thu Jun-07-01 01:53 PM

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57. "RE: the problem is this:"
In response to Reply # 53


          

so do you believe in the bible?





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Carpe Diem: Seize the day. Carpe Dikembe: Seize Hollywood!" - Pat Croce, Sixers Pres.

  

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Editor
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Thu Jun-07-01 02:02 PM

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59. "RE: the problem is this:"
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

>so do you believe in the
>bible?
>
>
>
Which one? (haha) That should answer your question!

"The fact of the matter is a matter of fact" -Black Thought

"I can make a 80yard dash and come back fast, wack rappers are left in the back like a jackass"-Kool G Rap

**This goes out to my NIGGA MalcomX**-NAS (idiot)

  

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AZ
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Thu Jun-07-01 02:15 PM

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62. "RE: the problem is this:"
In response to Reply # 59


          

I understand that, that's why I wanna see what she bases her spirituality on.


  

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loryn
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Thu Jun-07-01 02:29 PM

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64. "RE: the problem is this:"
In response to Reply # 59


  

          

Okay. I'll say it again.

THE BIBLE IS NOT WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.

Of course I believe in the Bible.

I do not believe in the rules and regulations and laws that man put forth just so that they can control people.

I do not believe in those who use the Bible and twist the scriptures around to do evil (such as slavery).

I do believe in the Bible being used as a tool to serve God.

And another thing.

People don't fuss at Black Muslims for saying that the White man is the devil.

But they fuss at Christians for believing that Jesus (who was a Black man) is the son of God.

That pisses me off.

What does it matter whether or not someone is a Christian if they are a good Christian?

Why can't a Christian believe what they want to believe without people condemning them?

Just because you call yourself a Christian doesn't mean that you are a child molester or a hypocrite or close minded.

By the same token, just because you hate Christianity doesn't mean that it's wrong for me to practice it.

To each his own. Doesn't anybody understand that?

NOW--then the question becomes, "well, what about evangelizing? What about missionaries, Channel 40,etc.?"

Well.

Yes, one of my purposes here on Earth as a Christian is to spread the gospel.

That can be as small as being an example to my non-Christian friends or as big and being a minister in the pulpit.

And--whether or not my witnessing is received positively is up to the one who hears it.

It's their choice if they want to accept Christ. It ain't really about me. It's between them and God.

It was Adam and Eve's choice to eat the apple.

It was David's choice to sleep with Bathsheba. And so on.

I recall the Parable of the sower in Matthew 13. Some of the seeds fell on dry ground, some on fertile ground. It is the same now with those who have the light of Christ shining in their spirits and who share that light with others.

-Loryn

There's a new day comin (it looks just like me)
The sun bursts through the clouds (my photo id)-Mos Def

I stopped combing my brain so my thoughts could lock-Saul Williams

ask away http://www.formspring.me/elledub

http://www.loryncwilson.com

tweet me up: @elledub_1920

  

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Apocalypse
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Thu Jun-07-01 08:07 PM

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80. "RE: the problem is this:"
In response to Reply # 64


          

Great points . . .

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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djrav
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Fri Jun-08-01 04:44 AM

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86. "RE: the problem is this:"
In response to Reply # 64


          

>People don't fuss at Black Muslims
>for saying that the White
>man is the devil.

I think there are a lot more people who fuss about this then you may think.
>
>But they fuss at Christians for
>believing that Jesus (who was
>a Black man) is the
>son of God.
>
>That pisses me off.

I have a question....and I am not trying to be an ass, I am sicerely asking: how was Jesus a black man? I thought he was Hebrew (ie. Dark eyes, dark skin, and dark hair, but looking more like an Arab or middle eastern person as opposed to Black) Which one is it, and how do we know?

>What does it matter whether or
>not someone is a Christian
>if they are a good
>Christian?

True. Unfortunetly there are many non-Christians who have had bad experiences with a Christian at one time or another, and stereotypes occur. I have a lot of people like this on my campus...they see me, and since I am coloured, they assume I am not Christian, and come to ask if I am interested in discussing the Bible with them. When I say I am not interested right now, they ask me my religious beliefs, and then let me know that Christ said you must accept him, that he's the only way, and in many cases, begin to belittle my beliefs. Now, I know they are not reflective of TRUE Christians NECESSARILY, but if these are the Christians I regularily come into contact with, obviously biases occur. Many find it offensive that these people have just met them, but they are already assuming their beliefs are totally invalid, and that their religion (which could be 1000's of years old, or part of they're family for generations) is invalid becuase Jesus "said so".

>Why can't a Christian believe what
>they want to believe without
>people condemning them?

True. They have the right to believe what they want, but I think most non-Christians's problems deal with forcing those beliefs on others, or belittling someone else's beliefs. I understand that a lot of Christians say that "evangelican" approach is a part of their beliefs....but come on, can't you see why people feel violated by it?

>Just because you call yourself a
>Christian doesn't mean that you
>are a child molester or
>a hypocrite or close
>minded.

True.

>By the same token, just
>because you hate Christianity doesn't
>mean that it's wrong for
>me to practice it.

Also true.

  

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Apocalypse
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Fri Jun-08-01 07:03 AM

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93. "RE: the problem is this:"
In response to Reply # 86


          

Jesus was a man of color, not necessarily "black", but based on the region of the middle east that he came from and his stint in Egypt, he was hued to a strong degree! Revelations 1:13-14 gives a strong description of Christ. Also, you can find out about Bible culture and facts like you can anything else. Study reference materials relevant to the times and they'll unearth some good info for ya!

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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the root
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Thu Jun-07-01 02:30 PM

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65. "RE: the problem is this:"
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

I guess, like a lot of people, I get irritated by THE WAY christianity portrays itself as opposed to its true teachings, Christ, etc...

The Christian right's efforts to oppress me with its dogma frustrates me. I don't want the effin 10 commandments on my classroom walls, I don't want prayer in my school, and I don't want my music/films censored etc...

And the exclusive vision of "heaven" being only for Christians is extremely scary. I will never be able to accept this belief which seems so fundamental to Christian missionaries.

I hate how when I act nice people ask me if I'm Christian and I hate how I feel awkward announcing that I'm agnostic. People respond, "I've never heard of that religion, what is that?"

Ignorant mutha effas.

"The task of philosophy is learning how to die." - Socrates

"Drink Bud Light beer with Buzz Lightyear."- RZA

"Socialism...let's hear that dirty word."-Jay Bulworth

the imperfect is our paradise - wallace stevens

  

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loryn
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Thu Jun-07-01 02:41 PM

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68. "RE: the problem is this:"
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

>I guess, like a lot of
>people, I get irritated by
>THE WAY christianity portrays itself
>as opposed to its true
>teachings, Christ, etc...

Thank you. I'm glad you understand what I'm saying.


>and I don't want my
>music/films censored etc...

I sure don't either. I don't think that is anyone's place. I actually don't like it when Christians get involved in ish like that. If you don't like it, don't read it or listen to it look at it or whatever.

>I hate how when I act
>nice people ask me if
>I'm Christian and I hate
>how I feel awkward announcing
>that I'm agnostic. People
>respond, "I've never heard of
>that religion, what is that?"

I'm nice, and people never ask me if I'm Christian.

People are quick to say, "you know, I really like your spirit..." though.

I do understand the awkwardness you feel, even though I am Christian. I've had some dumb questions thrown at me. I speak well, so when people hear me on the phone they ask "are you mixed with anything?"

it's not quite the same, but you know...
>
>
>Ignorant mutha effas.

yeah--people that act like that are very VERY ignorant.

There's a new day comin(it looks just like me)
the sun bursts through the clouds(my photo id)--Mos Def

I stopped combing my brain so my thoughts could lock-Saul Williams

ask away http://www.formspring.me/elledub

http://www.loryncwilson.com

tweet me up: @elledub_1920

  

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Apocalypse
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611 posts
Thu Jun-07-01 08:11 PM

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81. "RE: the problem is this:"
In response to Reply # 65


          

>The Christian right's efforts to oppress
>me with its dogma frustrates
>me. I don't want
>the effin 10 commandments on
>my classroom walls, I don't
>want prayer in my school,
>and I don't want my
>music/films censored etc...

The "Christian Right Effort" used to be called free speech until Christians started using it. The same right you have to not want the "effin 10 commandments in the classroom" is the same right we have to pray in schools. Your participation is personal and solely up to you, but DENYING the right to pray is hypocritical and jsut as bad as a Christian "forcing" their dogma on you.

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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Bombshell
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Thu Jul-05-01 05:01 PM

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353. "RE: the problem is this:"
In response to Reply # 81


          


>The "Christian Right Effort" used to
>be called free speech until
>Christians started using it. The
>same right you have to
>not want the "effin 10
>commandments in the classroom" is
>the same right we have
>to pray in schools. Your
>participation is personal and solely
>up to you, but DENYING
>the right to pray is
>hypocritical and jsut as bad
>as a Christian "forcing" their
>dogma on you.
Then if you have the right to pray in school a satan worshiper has the right to sacrifice animals in school. This is MY time for education... not to sit and wait for you to have your daily personal prayers. If you want to pray do it before you go to school, do it in the privacy of your own home or church.

"Me fail english? That's unpossible!"

Jesus smited my signature!

  

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Apocalypse
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Thu Jul-05-01 07:25 PM

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355. "RE: the problem is this:"
In response to Reply # 353


          

No one wants to take away from YOUR time. All I'm saying is people shouldn't call denying people the right to pray defending their first amendment right, it's the pot calling the kettle black. When groups come together in a designated area during a school day to pray, how is that stopping you from learning. And, though I agree with you principle, there's really no way you can compare sacrificing animals to praying. Think about it . . .

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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Apocalypse
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Thu Jul-05-01 07:28 PM

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356. "Sacrificing animals"
In response to Reply # 355


          

What I mean is, I understand that they are both rituals based on your belief, but sacrificing animals can be grotesque. They have right to do it, but the ramifications of chicken blood in the cafeteria and prayer in the quad are not even up for comparison.

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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Bombshell
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Fri Jul-13-01 07:51 PM

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359. "RE: Sacrificing animals"
In response to Reply # 356


          

>What I mean is, I understand
>that they are both rituals
>based on your belief, but
>sacrificing animals can be grotesque.
>They have right to do
>it, but the ramifications of
>chicken blood in the cafeteria
>and prayer in the quad
>are not even up for
>comparison.

Grotesque only by your standards. I'm tired of the Christian Right. Ok... lets say I'm a satan worshiper for arguments sake. I send my kids to school everyday. And they come home and tell me how every morning they have to sit through 10 minutes of silence so your kids can pray. Well, you know what? I want ten minutes for my kids to conduct their ritual sacrifice. In fact, if the school doesn't provide the sanitary place and equipment for it, that is DISCRIMINATION, and I will sue. I repeat, religion, of any denomination, does not belong in school. It isn't illegal for students to create religious groups in school, nor is it illegal for them to pray. But a mandated time and place for practice of religion on school grounds is wrong. At my high school there was a jesus club, and they prayed during lunch. Did I have one single problem with that? Not in the least. Yet, if I had gotten to school every morning and had to sit in silence for some designated amount of time while people talked to God... I'm not down.

"Me fail english? That's unpossible!"

Jesus smited my signature!

  

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Editor
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391 posts
Fri Jun-08-01 07:21 AM

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98. "RE: the problem is this:"
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

>I guess, like a lot of
>people, I get irritated by
>THE WAY christianity portrays itself
>as opposed to its true
>teachings, Christ, etc...
>
>The Christian right's efforts to oppress
>me with its dogma frustrates
>me. I don't want
>the effin 10 commandments on
>my classroom walls, I don't
>want prayer in my school,
>and I don't want my
>music/films censored etc...
>
>And the exclusive vision of "heaven"
>being only for Christians is
>extremely scary. I will
>never be able to accept
>this belief which seems so
>fundamental to Christian missionaries.
>
NOW THIS IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SAY!!!!!!
I FEEL YOU 100%!!!!!!!!! THE ARROGANCE ALONE THAT MOST CHISTIANS PORTRAY IS SICK....
THEN YOU GET THESE FOLKS THAT COME IN HERE AND ACT LIKE THEY ARE NOT APART OF THE PROBLEM? "NO AM A GOOD CHRISTIAN"-HAHA HAVE ANY OF YOU "LIKE CHRIST PEOPLE" EVER THOUGHT ABOUT BELIEVING IN YOURSELF????? i HAVE READ SO MUCH CONTRADICTION IN THESE THREADS I THOUGHT I WAS SPEAKING TO KRS-hehe example: "I believe in the bible but not all the rules to get into heaven" JOKES!!!

"The fact of the matter is a matter of fact" -Black Thought

"I can make a 80yard dash and come back fast, wack rappers are left in the back like a jackass"-Kool G Rap

**This goes out to my NIGGA MalcomX**-NAS (idiot)

  

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loryn
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Fri Jun-08-01 01:10 PM

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134. "well, that's you."
In response to Reply # 98


  

          

carry on. and please lower your voice.

-loryn

there's a new day coming(it looks just like me)
the sun bursts through the clouds(my photo id)-mos def

i stopped combing my brain so my thoughts could lock-saul williams

ask away http://www.formspring.me/elledub

http://www.loryncwilson.com

tweet me up: @elledub_1920

  

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SampolinMoAko
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Thu Jun-07-01 02:58 PM

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69. "hmmmmm"
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

>I think the main issue that
>people have with Christianity is
>the religion and not the
>spirituality behind it.
>
>By that I mean that people
>get caught up with the
>religious dogma that they have
>came in contact with in
>society and in their own
>lives.
>


>My church, West Angeles, is part
>of the Church of God
>in Christ.
>
>This denomination says that women cannot
>wear pants to church, cannot
>wear too much makeup, and
>cannot be ordained as bishops.
>
>
>Bull defecation.
>
>When I get to heaven, God
>isn't gonna be like, "Did
>you wear a skirt in
>the sanctuary?"
>
>He's going to ask, "Did you
>worship me in spirit and
>in truth? Did you show
>the love of Christ to
>all you meet? Did you
>live as a living sacrifice,
>holy and acceptable?"
>
>Whether or not I wore a
>skirt is invalid when it
>comes to God's purpose for
>our lives. He looks at
>our hearts. Religion looks on
>the outward man.

your reply illustrates some of the issues that i have...
see the thing is, a lot of the "dogma" can be traced straight from the bible. if you are a Christian, and believe the bible is the word of God, then aren't you supposed to have the kind of faith in the word where you accept what it says even though it does not make any sense in your every day life?

your church, for example, says that women can't wear pants. my grandma doesn't wear pants because she can point out in the bible where it says a woman should not wear the clothes of a man. so how is it that you can be a Christian and say your not being able to wear pants is "bull defacation" if it's in the bible? if you really do believe that the bible is God's word, then He meant it. who are you to say that God won't ask you why you wore pants when you get to heaven? just because that's you're opinion, as a Christian aren't you supposed to have that much faith in His word?

i know that there is the argument that interpretation has a lot to do with it, and there are a lot of things that are just out dated. but if you can say that about the way you dress, what's to say that key principles about Chirstianity aren't a matter of interpretation too? does that mean that where it says non-Christians are essentially going to hell is another thing that can be argued down too? if you really sit down and read the bible, there is a lot of stuff in there that seems kind of far out when applied to life today. but if you are a true Christian, you should be following it shouldn't you? who gets to say what is truth in the bible and what is not?

i also don't like how organized religion is manipulated to control peoples' lives. and that can be applied to religions other than Christianity. we're only having this discussion about Christianity because we're in the united states. if we were in afghanistan it would be a whole different discussion.
whoa, i sort of got off track there. but i hope you understand what i'm asking.

another thing i wanted to ask you is that don't you think you're being spiritually hindered if you think that some of the practices of your church are bull? i respect your spirituality and because of that, i think that maybe you might want to find another church where you wouldn't feel that way. it might be better for you.

>I leave you with this:
>
>"For we wrestle not against flesh
>and blood but against principalities,
>against powers, against rulers of
>the darkness of this world,
>against spiritual wickedness in high
>places"--Ephesians 6: 12
>
good verse. applicable in a lot of areas.

peace
kaya

***********************************
This was a set up. Now tell me: WHAT'S MY NAME!?!?!?!

aim: espkjones

I have died and dreamed
myself into your arms where
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shwin
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Thu Jun-07-01 03:19 PM

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70. "CONVERSION IS VIOLENCE"
In response to Reply # 69


  

          

THE WORST ASPECT OF CHRISTIANITY IS THE BELIEF THAT ONE CAN DESTROY A CULTURE, IN THE NAME OF REPLACING IT With something you "feel" is better. Numerous cultures have been eradicated, and I will post again on my specific beef with Conversion

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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loryn
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Thu Jun-07-01 04:10 PM

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73. "RE: CONVERSION IS VIOLENCE"
In response to Reply # 70


  

          

>THE WORST ASPECT OF CHRISTIANITY IS
>THE BELIEF THAT ONE CAN
>DESTROY A CULTURE, IN THE
>NAME OF REPLACING IT With
>something you "feel" is better.



Conversion doesn't have to include violence. And when you think about it, it isn't an aspect of real Christianity, the one that was taught by the Messiah Himself.

When Jesus was on earth and even after that in the Early Church, violence was not used in conversion.

And really--it isn't of God to force people to convert violently. Conversion is an individual choice.

I think what you mean is that evangelism is violence--which isn't SUPPOSED TO BE THE CASE.

The reason why some resort to violence in trying to "convert" people is because they resist to their own flesh instead of acting in the Spirit and asking God for the words to say.

If you still think that "conversion" is violence, go'head.

But you're badly mistaken.

-Loryn

There's a new day comin (it looks just like me)
the sun bursts through the clouds (my photo id)--Mos Def

I stopped combing my brain so my thoughts could lock-Saul Williams

-loryn

ask away http://www.formspring.me/elledub

http://www.loryncwilson.com

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Apocalypse
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Thu Jun-07-01 08:25 PM

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83. "RE: CONVERSION IS VIOLENCE"
In response to Reply # 73


          

>And really--it isn't of God to
>force people to convert violently.
>Conversion is an individual choice.

I feel you, but (though this may be a play on words), It isn't of God to force people to convert, period. God totally respects a person's free will and never puts a person in a situation where they are forced to accept Christ.

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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LexM
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Wed Jun-13-01 08:24 AM

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195. "maybe God does...."
In response to Reply # 83


  

          

>I feel you, but (though this
>may be a play on
>words), It isn't of God
>to force people to convert,
>period. God totally respects a
>person's free will and never
>puts a person in a
>situation where they are forced
>to accept Christ.

but people sure as hell don't.



~~~SPITFIRE: AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
HipHop. Old school style. In Full Effect. Want Info? Email: carameldom@hotmail.com

http://www.welcome.to/okaypoets (u ain't a real okayplayer if u ain't been here)

"cats pop champagne/over misery and pain/like slaves on the ship/talkin 'bout/who got the flyest chains" ~~Talib Kweli

~~~~
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djrav
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Fri Jun-08-01 04:29 AM

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85. "RE: CONVERSION IS VIOLENCE"
In response to Reply # 73


          

>Conversion doesn't have to include violence.
>And when you think about
>it, it isn't an aspect
>of real Christianity, the one
>that was taught by the
>Messiah Himself.
>
>When Jesus was on earth and
>even after that in the
>Early Church, violence was not
>used in conversion.

But unfortunately it has been used consistently since his death.

>And really--it isn't of God to
>force people to convert violently.
>Conversion is an individual choice.
>
>
>I think what you mean is
>that evangelism is violence--which isn't
>SUPPOSED TO BE THE CASE.

Not only is there violence though, there is also the case where missionaries will go to other cultures, and find the poorest people of the society and tell them that if they promise to accept Jesus into their heart, then they will get bread. Do you agree with these tactics?

>The reason why some resort to
>violence in trying to "convert"
>people is because they resist
>to their own flesh instead
>of acting in the Spirit
>and asking God for the
>words to say.
>
>If you still think that "conversion"
>is violence, go'head.
>
>But you're badly mistaken.

Maybe it isn't SUPPOSE to be violent according to the teachings of Jesus, but if you go on facts....then I DON'T think one is badly mistaken for associating "violence" with "conversion".

  

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loryn
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Fri Jun-08-01 12:42 PM

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133. "RE: CONVERSION IS VIOLENCE"
In response to Reply # 85


  

          

>>Not only is there violence though,
>there is also the case
>where missionaries will go to
>other cultures, and find the
>poorest people of the society
>and tell them that if
>they promise to accept Jesus
>into their heart, then they
>will get bread. Do
>you agree with these tactics?


of course not. i think that that is just as violent. it's a mental violence.

>
>Maybe it isn't SUPPOSE to be
>violent according to the teachings
>of Jesus, but if you
>go on facts....then I DON'T
>think one is badly mistaken
>for associating "violence" with "conversion".

i understand. those that resort to flesh will ultimately resort to violence.

and they bring the violence into things are to be holy (like "conversion")



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shwin
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Tue Jun-12-01 01:27 AM

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161. "RE: CONVERSION IS VIOLENCE"
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

i mean not that conversion is direct violence, but a violence against HUMANITY,as itn destroys cultures. End of Story

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NYU

  

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loryn
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Thu Jun-07-01 04:01 PM

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72. "RE: hmmmmm"
In response to Reply # 69


  

          

>your reply illustrates some of the
>issues that i have...
>see the thing is, a lot
>of the "dogma" can be
>traced straight from the bible.
> if you are a
>Christian, and believe the bible
>is the word of God,
>then aren't you supposed to
>have the kind of faith
>in the word where you
>accept what it says even
>though it does not make
>any sense in your every
>day life?

Actually, what I choose to follow in the Bible is my choice. God gave us all a free will to do whatever we want.

It's like the whole issue of abstinence.

Many Christians still go out and have sex even though they aren't married.

Isn't that the same thing than me saying I will wear pants to church anyway?


>your church, for example, says that
>women can't wear pants.
>my grandma doesn't wear pants
>because she can point out
>in the bible where it
>says a woman should not
>wear the clothes of a
>man.

two words: old convenant.

the place in the Bible where it says a woman cannot wear anything pertaining to a man (still don't agree--butt tight bellbottoms are not masculine) is in the old testament.

I'm not saying that all of the old testament is invalid because of Jesus' crucifixion. I'm saying that some of the practices (such as women not wearing pants, and even burnt sacrfices) are no loonger needed because of the Crucifixion in the New covenant--the New Testament.



>i know that there is the
>argument that interpretation has a
>lot to do with it,
>and there are a lot
>of things that are just
>out dated. but if
>you can say that about
>the way you dress, what's
>to say that key principles
>about Chirstianity aren't a matter
>of interpretation too?

The Gospels record the Crucifixion of Christ. I don't think his death is open to interpretation.

The filling of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues in Acts 2 isn't really open to interpretation. It's right there in black and white.

You don't really need any further analysis about what the Last Supper meant.

But I feel you. Some things--"Turn the other cheek", "Judge not lest ye be judged", etc. Are open to interpretation. But the actual happenings? Somehow I doubt that.


does
>that mean that where it
>says non-Christians are essentially going
>to hell is another thing
>that can be argued down
>too?

That's one of those things that isn't open to interpretaion in my opinion. --ALTHOUGH I think there are several people who call themselves Christians who are going to hell. Jesus even said it himself--and i'm paraphrasing-- "Not all who say 'Lord, Lord', will enter the Kingdom of Heaven".



> who gets to say
>what is truth in the
>bible and what is not?

I find myself asking myself the same question--people have told me many times that the whole Bible is fake.



>
>i also don't like how organized
>religion is manipulated to control
>peoples' lives.

I don't either......but then again....i don't really like "religion".


>another thing i wanted to ask
>you is that don't you
>think you're being spiritually hindered
>if you think that some
>of the practices of your
>church are bull?

no. I'm not there for the people. I'm there for the Lord,and only what S/He tells me to do is what matters. I'm not saying that I completely rebel--i'm a Deacon's Kid so I have to dress approriately.

And until what they are saying applies to my Spirit (that is, not having to do with my outward appearance) is when I will begin to be spritually hindered.



i
>respect your spirituality and because
>of that, i think that
>maybe you might want to
>find another church where you
>wouldn't feel that way.
>it might be better for
>you.


I love my church--that's the only place I differ with it. The doctrine is cool, the ministry is awesome, and because I am a teen, the whole pants thing isn't as strict.

also--not being able to wear pants isn't that huge of a deal. I'm not losing my life over it.

it's just an annoyance (what if you're coming from school and have on jeans? And doesn't God want us to come as we are?).

I thank you for respecting my spirituality.

lots of people get an attitude when I say I'm a Christian.

>>I leave you with this:
>>
>>"For we wrestle not against flesh
>>and blood but against principalities,
>>against powers, against rulers of
>>the darkness of this world,
>>against spiritual wickedness in high
>>places"--Ephesians 6: 12
>>
>good verse. applicable in a
>lot of areas.

thank you. and it is applicable almost everywhere.

I hope I'm making sense so far. I'm 17, and I'm really at the dawn of my walk with Christ.

I still have lots to learn, but I think we all do.

-Loryn

There's a new day coming(it looks just like me)
The sun bursts through the clouds(my photo id)--Mos Def

I stopped combing my brain so my thoughts could lock-Saul Williams

ask away http://www.formspring.me/elledub

http://www.loryncwilson.com

tweet me up: @elledub_1920

  

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SampolinMoAko
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Thu Jun-07-01 04:46 PM

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74. "RE: hmmmmm"
In response to Reply # 72


  

          

>Actually, what I choose to
>follow in the Bible is
>my choice. God gave us
>all a free will to
>do whatever we want.
>
but isn't it so that if you are a devout Christian you aren't supposed to choose what to believe in the bible? the whole point is that you are given the choice of believing in the word or not. isn't it considered a sin if you know something's in the bible and you choose to not follow it?
i do understand your old vs new testament argument, but even within the new testament there are things that most Christians do not practice or they find a way to talk their way around doing

>The Gospels record the Crucifixion of
>Christ. I don't think his
>death is open to interpretation.
>
>The filling of the Holy Ghost
>with the evidence of speaking
>in tongues in Acts 2
>isn't really open to interpretation.
>It's right there in black
>and white.
>
>You don't really need any further
>analysis about what the Last
>Supper meant.

yes, i see what you mean. most of us tend to interpret these events in the same way. that is what we have been taught. but there are areas even within the crucifixion and last supper and other events where they can be interpreted differently. these ideas are just not as popular. does it mean they aren't right?

I'm not saying that
>I completely rebel--i'm a Deacon's
>Kid so I have to
>dress approriately.

lol, i am too. would you believe it?

>I love my church--that's the only
>place I differ with it.
>The doctrine is cool, the
>ministry is awesome, and because
>I am a teen, the
>whole pants thing isn't as
>strict.
>also--not being able to wear pants
>isn't that huge of a
>deal. I'm not losing my
>life over it.

i guess i kind of mis-understood how you felt about your church. that's cool.

>I hope I'm making sense so
>far. I'm 17, and I'm
>really at the dawn of
>my walk with Christ.
>
>I still have lots to learn,
>but I think we all
>do.

that is so true. it's good you're keeping an open mind.

this is a really cool dialogue...

***********************************
This was a set up. Now tell me: WHAT'S MY NAME!?!?!?!

aim: espkjones

I have died and dreamed
myself into your arms where
what I died for sleeps - Sonia Sanchez

  

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Apocalypse
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Fri Jun-08-01 07:07 AM

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94. "RE: hmmmmm"
In response to Reply # 72


          

Loryn, I'm 24 and have been a Christian six years now. You make some good points. Continue to press and develop your relationship with Christ, your best years are ahead of you.

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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Apocalypse
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Thu Jun-07-01 08:19 PM

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82. "RE: hmmmmm"
In response to Reply # 69


          


>see the thing is, a lot
>of the "dogma" can be
>traced straight from the bible.
> if you are a
>Christian, and believe the bible
>is the word of God,
>then aren't you supposed to
>have the kind of faith
>in the word where you
>accept what it says even
>though it does not make
>any sense in your every
>day life?

Please, Please tell me who told you that?! That's like, the anti-truth! We have a principle in our church that "if it's not practical, it's not spiritual (it's a relative term dealing with Biblical issues and "blind faith").

>your church, for example, says that
>women can't wear pants.
>my grandma doesn't wear pants
>because she can point out
>in the bible where it
>says a woman should not
>wear the clothes of a
>man. so how is
>it that you can be
>a Christian and say your
>not being able to wear
>pants is "bull defacation" if
>it's in the bible?
>if you really do believe
>that the bible is God's
>word, then He meant it.
> who are you to
>say that God won't ask
>you why you wore pants
>when you get to heaven?
> just because that's you're
>opinion, as a Christian aren't
>you supposed to have that
>much faith in His word?
>
>
>i know that there is the
>argument that interpretation has a
>lot to do with it,
>and there are a lot
>of things that are just
>out dated. but if
>you can say that about
>the way you dress, what's
>to say that key principles
>about Chirstianity aren't a matter
>of interpretation too? does
>that mean that where it
>says non-Christians are essentially going
>to hell is another thing
>that can be argued down
>too? if you really
>sit down and read the
>bible, there is a lot
>of stuff in there that
>seems kind of far out
>when applied to life today.
> but if you are
>a true Christian, you should
>be following it shouldn't you?
> who gets to say
>what is truth in the
>bible and what is not?

Question, how much have you really studied scripture. Is it just a matter of reading, or do you research the culture, history, languages, etc to unearth the truths that are there? If not, you're in a Catch 22 situation in understanding scripture.

>i also don't like how organized
>religion is manipulated to control
>peoples' lives. and that
>can be applied to religions
>other than Christianity. we're
>only having this discussion about
>Christianity because we're in the
>united states. if we
>were in afghanistan it would
>be a whole different discussion.

Well, I started the thread, but I guess if I was in Afghanistan and a Christian, I'd probably done the same thing. So I guess i can be held somewhat responsible . . .

>another thing i wanted to ask
>you is that don't you
>think you're being spiritually hindered
>if you think that some
>of the practices of your
>church are bull? i
>respect your spirituality and because
>of that, i think that
>maybe you might want to
>find another church where you
>wouldn't feel that way.
>it might be better for
>you.

That may be the best thing you said in the post . . .

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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Apocalypse
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Thu Jun-07-01 07:46 PM

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77. "I'm with you"
In response to Reply # 53


          

My church is also affiliated with COGIC, but is probably the most progressive COGIC church in the nation (can't you tell?). Anyway, you bring up a good point about the religion thing. I tell people that true Christianity is not a religion, but a way of life. Thanks for the response.

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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cartier_allah1
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Fri Jun-08-01 06:37 AM

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91. "celsus and porphcy"
In response to Reply # 77


          

read on celsus thatz it

  

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rgv
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Fri Jun-08-01 07:12 AM

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95. "i did not read all the replies"
In response to Reply # 0


          

so here goes mine:

1. contradictions
2. the father, son, and holy ghost?
3. referring to jesus as god and as the son
which is which? who is who? how can they both be both?
4. who is the "we" in the book of genesis?

i think that many of my actual "beefs" w/ christianity come frum going to a baptist church while living in sc w/ my grandparents. its different reading up on sumthin, and experiencing it.






"God is..She's like a motherly
Che Guevara, benevolent,
like 6 feet tall with dreadlocks,
a big machine gun and a
beautiful laugh... maybe."

~ okp DJ Scratch n Sniff

i just want chu to know
how i feel
how i feel

  

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osoclasi
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Fri Jun-08-01 07:29 AM

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101. "RE: i did not read all the replies"
In response to Reply # 95


          

>so here goes mine:
>
>1. contradictions

Responce: There are no contridictions in the Bible only apparent ones.
>2. the father, son, and holy
>ghost?

Responce : This is what is known as the Triune God.
>3. referring to jesus as god
>and as the son

Responce: Jesus, was God. But the word Son of God does not mean that he was Gods child. But the words Son of God means the same or of the order of.

>which is which? who is who?
>how can they both be
>both?

Responce: when Jesus is pronounced Son of God that is his role in relationship in the God Head.

>4. who is the "we" in
>the book of genesis?

Responce: The we in Genesis 1:26 is there for grammatical reasons because the word used for God (Elohim) is a plural of majesty. The im makes it plural. So since the Elohim is deemed plural because of grammatics it reads we.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>"


------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

  

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Apocalypse
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Fri Jun-08-01 07:36 AM

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105. "RE: i did not read all the replies"
In response to Reply # 101


          

Excellent response! Thanx for helping me hold it down . . .

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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Editor
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Fri Jun-08-01 07:55 AM

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108. "What!!!!"
In response to Reply # 101


  

          

Responce: There are no contridictions in the Bible only apparent ones.

Now this is bullshit! Do you really beleive that their are no contridictions in the bible? That is a prime example of Chritian arrogance!!!!!!!

"The fact of the matter is a matter of fact" -Black Thought

"I can make a 80yard dash and come back fast, wack rappers are left in the back like a jackass"-Kool G Rap

**This goes out to my NIGGA MalcomX**-NAS (idiot)

  

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Jennyfer
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Fri Jun-08-01 10:26 AM

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125. "RE: what what!! (c) N.O.R.E"
In response to Reply # 108


          

>Now this is bullshit! Do
>you really beleive that their
>are no contridictions in the
>bible?

There aren't contradictions in the Bible. Things you think are contradictery are really complimentary of each other.



That is a
>prime example of Chritian arrogance!!!!!!!

Arrogant? osoclasi is not being arrogant. He's just giving you the facts. The Bible can't contradict and it doesn't?




  

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LexM
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Wed Jun-13-01 03:29 AM

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177. "main contradiction:"
In response to Reply # 108


  

          

(in my eyes) is the old vs. new testament.

and don't tell me we're supposed to just "ignore" all that (heard that one TOO MANY times).

if that's so, why is the old testament included in the Christian Bible at all? Just leave it to the Torah.

If Jesus' teachings are the foundation (hence, CHRISTian), why include the part before he even existed? To illustrate the history of the Jewish people?



~~~SPITFIRE: AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
HipHop. Old school style. In Full Effect. Want Info? Email: carameldom@hotmail.com

http://www.welcome.to/okaypoets (u ain't a real okayplayer if u ain't been here)

"cats pop champagne/over misery and pain/like slaves on the ship/talkin 'bout/who got the flyest chains" ~~Talib Kweli

~~~~
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http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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Jennyfer
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Wed Jun-13-01 07:34 AM

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189. "RE: OT and NT"
In response to Reply # 177


          

The Old Testament and The New Testament compliment each other they dont contradict. Old Testament Moral Law was not abolished/destoryed by The Messiah. He fulfilled and completed the prophceies of the Old Testament. The Torah (Moral Laws) still applies in Christianity. Just ceremonial and traditonal practices of the old testament are finished due to Christ's Sacrifical Atonement on the Cross.

  

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LexM
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Wed Jun-13-01 07:52 AM

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190. "ok..."
In response to Reply # 189


  

          

why does Christ's crucifixion nullify all that? Because he died for all sins it's suddenly wrong to pour libation or offer sacrifices to God to show appreciation?

What right do Christians have to condemn and debase the rituals of sacrifice and other "traditions" as "pagan" when they are present in their own scriptures?--I think that is what I was getting at when I asked the question. That's the kind of thing that may feel like a "contradiction" to some (e.g. Christians condemning Voodoo practioners when there is animal sacrifice in the Bible).

Or is that condemnation another Christian act that isn't sanctioned by the Bible?

I've noticed that several people beginning questions with, "well God didn't REALLY mean for people to act that way..." So what did God mean? And why are so many people getting it "wrong"? Free will? Too many cooks in(terpreting) the soup/Bible?




~~~SPITFIRE: AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
HipHop. Old school style. In Full Effect. Want Info? Email: carameldom@hotmail.com

http://www.welcome.to/okaypoets (u ain't a real okayplayer if u ain't been here)

"cats pop champagne/over misery and pain/like slaves on the ship/talkin 'bout/who got the flyest chains" ~~Talib Kweli

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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LexM
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Wed Jun-13-01 07:53 AM

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191. "typo: "beginning answers to questions""
In response to Reply # 190


  

          


~~~~
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http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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Jennyfer
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Wed Jun-13-01 08:51 AM

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200. "RE: ok..."
In response to Reply # 190


          

>why does Christ's crucifixion nullify all
>that? Because he died for
>all sins it's suddenly wrong
>to pour libation or offer
>sacrifices to God to show
>appreciation?

The sacrificial practices symbolizes...something innocent paying the sin debt of the Guilty. But the animal sacrifice does not actual pay our sin debt. These practices symbolized what Christ was to do for the World's sin debt. The symbolism of the practice (sacrificing animals) Was Fulfilled and the actual sin debt of the world was atoned for due Christ's Sacrifice on the cross.And one can only get to the Father because of His Atonement for our sins......If you don't Trust/Believe in Christ's your sins go unatoned for.


>What right do Christians have to
>condemn and debase the rituals
>of sacrifice and other "traditions"
>as "pagan" when they are
>present in their own scriptures?--I
>think that is what I
>was getting at when I
>asked the question. That's the
>kind of thing that may
>feel like a "contradiction" to
>some (e.g. Christians condemning Voodoo
>practioners when there is animal
>sacrifice in the Bible).
>
>Or is that condemnation another Christian
>act that isn't sanctioned by
>the Bible?

The sacrifice of animals to the God that exist is okay...Who or what ever entity that Voodoo practioners sacrifice their animals to is Not God of the Bible the only God that exists. (Note to Lex
There is no need for Christians to sacrifice Animals to God anymore. Because the symbol has been fulfilled through Christ)


>I've noticed that several people beginning
>questions with, "well God didn't
>REALLY mean for people to
>act that way..." So what
>did God mean? And why
>are so many people getting
>it "wrong"? Free will? Too
>many cooks in(terpreting) the soup/Bible?

God created the option of choice (Free will). God doesnt want us to do bad. But we (as humans) choose to do bad stuff all the time.

  

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LexM
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Thu Jun-14-01 04:50 AM

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227. "2 different meanings"
In response to Reply # 200


  

          

>The sacrificial practices symbolizes...something innocent paying
>the sin debt of the
>Guilty.

Ok...so (biblically speaking) sacrifice wasn't just an offering as recognition of God, but a way of erasing sin? I was confusing the two types of practices.


>But the animal sacrifice
>does not actual pay our
>sin debt. These practices symbolized
>what Christ was to do
>for the World's sin debt.
>The symbolism of the practice
>(sacrificing animals) Was Fulfilled and
>the actual sin debt of
>the world was atoned for
>due Christ's Sacrifice on the
>cross.And one can only get
>to the Father because of
>His Atonement for our sins......If
>you don't Trust/Believe in Christ's
>your sins go unatoned for.
>

ok


>The sacrifice of animals to the
>God that exist is okay...Who
>or what ever entity that
>Voodoo practioners sacrifice their animals
>to is Not God of
>the Bible the only God
>that exists.

ok. But just as a side note, they do not sacrifice to "atone for sin," from my understanding. They sacrifice as an offering to God, a sign of respect. The concept of "sin" as Christians understand it is not present in many other religions. That's why I said I must have been confusing the two meanings between the biblical & other religious sacrifice.


>There is no need for Christians
>to sacrifice Animals to God
>anymore. Because the symbol has
>been fulfilled through Christ)

ok


>God created the option of choice
>(Free will). God doesnt want
>us to do bad. But
>we (as humans) choose to
>do bad stuff all the
>time.

ok


~~~SPITFIRE: AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
HipHop. Old school style. In Full Effect. Want Info? Email: carameldom@hotmail.com

http://www.welcome.to/okaypoets (u ain't a real okayplayer if u ain't been here)

"cats pop champagne/over misery and pain/like slaves on the ship/talkin 'bout/who got the flyest chains" ~~Talib Kweli

~~~~
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osoclasi
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Thu Jun-14-01 05:48 AM

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230. "Sacrifice?"
In response to Reply # 227


          

>
>Ok...so (biblically speaking) sacrifice wasn't just
>an offering as recognition of
>God, but a way of
>erasing sin? I was confusing
>the two types of practices.
>

Responce: This is a real easy issue to resolve. First you have to realize what the sacrifictial symbol represented. It points to Christ and Gods grace. How? now follow closely when we sin once that is enough to send us to hell. God cannot overlook sin because he is a God of justice. So if you read leviticus you always see the phrase be holy for I am holy about 152 times (yes I nothing better to do). What that means is when the Isralites sinned they deserved death. So in leviticus the animals sacrificed were a substitute for our deaths. The animal always had to be perfected(symbolic) without defect. So the perfect (animal) was substituting the imperfect man (us)in death. This points to Christ because he was perfect without defect and died on the cross as a substitute for our sins. Therefore God could remain just.
>
>
>>>
>ok
>
>
>>The sacrifice of animals to the
>>God that exist is okay...Who
>>or what ever entity that
>>Voodoo practioners sacrifice their animals
>>to is Not God of
>>the Bible the only God
>>that exists.

Responce: But you have to remeber a lot of times when other nations would sacrifice animals they were trying to predict the future or something. The sacrifice of Isreal was symbolic of a messiah to come.
>
>
>


------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

  

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LexM
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Sun Jun-17-01 01:55 PM

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284. "I didn't say that"
In response to Reply # 230


  

          

>>>The sacrifice of animals to the
>>>God that exist is okay...Who
>>>or what ever entity that
>>>Voodoo practioners sacrifice their animals
>>>to is Not God of
>>>the Bible the only God
>>>that exists.

this is a quote from the person I was responding to, not my words. my response is underneath that paragraph somewhere.


>Responce: But you have to remeber
>a lot of times when
>other nations would sacrifice animals
>they were trying to predict
>the future or something. The
>sacrifice of Isreal was symbolic
>of a messiah to come.

But sacrifice, for so-called "pagans," (at least not African "pagans" according to everything I've seen so far) was not a form of divination/fortune telling. It is a sign of respect to the higher being; a way of acknowledging God and welcoming God's presence.



~~~SPITFIRE: AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
HipHop. Old school style. In Full Effect. Want Info? Email: carameldom@hotmail.com

http://www.welcome.to/okaypoets (u ain't a real okayplayer if u ain't been here)

"cats pop champagne/over misery and pain/like slaves on the ship/talkin 'bout/who got the flyest chains" ~~Talib Kweli

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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Apocalypse
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Wed Jun-13-01 10:23 AM

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207. "RE: ok..."
In response to Reply # 190


          

There's a difference between something being nullified and something being fulfilled. The Old Testament is a foreshadowing of Christ and he fulfilled all the Old Testament practices. The purpose of this was so that people no longer had to go through those things if they would accept his sacrifices. Because of His sacrifice, we can accept grace to have our sins atoned for.

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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rgv
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Fri Jun-08-01 08:14 AM

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112. "this did nuthin to help me n/m"
In response to Reply # 101


          

"God is..She's like a motherly
Che Guevara, benevolent,
like 6 feet tall with dreadlocks,
a big machine gun and a
beautiful laugh... maybe."

~ okp DJ Scratch n Sniff

i just want chu to know
how i feel
how i feel

  

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LexM
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Wed Jun-13-01 03:26 AM

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176. "can we be sure...?"
In response to Reply # 101


  

          

>>4. who is the "we" in
>>the book of genesis?
>
>Responce: The we in Genesis 1:26
>is there for grammatical reasons
>because the word used for
>God (Elohim) is a plural
>of majesty. The im makes
>it plural. So since the
>Elohim is deemed plural because
>of grammatics it reads we.

I thought that was the answer as well (and it's probably why, considering the "King James" translation), but with the jumbled history of the sources of Christianity, can we be absolutely sure that this isn't some remnant from some other, more ancient philosophy that the Bible borrowed from?

(Just been doing some reading that questions these kinds of assumptions about the Bible, that's all)




~~~SPITFIRE: AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
HipHop. Old school style. In Full Effect. Want Info? Email: carameldom@hotmail.com

http://www.welcome.to/okaypoets (u ain't a real okayplayer if u ain't been here)

"cats pop champagne/over misery and pain/like slaves on the ship/talkin 'bout/who got the flyest chains" ~~Talib Kweli

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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AZ
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Fri Jun-08-01 07:17 AM

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97. "My question - Dante's inferno"
In response to Reply # 0


          

In it, all the prophets that lived before Jesus were born, and as a result were not baptized, were in Hell. Does this go against Christian thinking or is it supported by the Bible?




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Carpe Diem: Seize the day. Carpe Dikembe: Seize Hollywood!" - Pat Croce, Sixers Pres.

  

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osoclasi
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Fri Jun-08-01 07:30 AM

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102. "RE: My question - Dante's inferno"
In response to Reply # 97


          

>In it, all the prophets that
>lived before Jesus were born,
>and as a result were
>not baptized, were in Hell.
>Does this go against Christian
>thinking or is it supported
>by the Bible?
>

Responce: All the prophets that were before Jesus did not go to hell. There in a place called Sheol, or Abraham's boosom.
>
>
>

------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

  

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Apocalypse
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Fri Jun-08-01 07:39 AM

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106. "RE: My question - Dante's inferno"
In response to Reply # 102


          

Additionally, when Christ was crucified, those in Sheol were released to be with the father because the gap had been bridged (see Matthew 27:45-56). Oh yeah, baptism doesn't equate to salvation so that has nothing to do with it.

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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Editor
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Fri Jun-08-01 08:01 AM

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110. "RE: My question - Dante's inferno"
In response to Reply # 106


  

          

Speaking on ... "when Christ was crucified" Why does you religion promote(for a lack of better words) the cross. I forgot who said this but is was something like "If Jesus was shot in the head, would you all wear gold 9mm around you neck"
This is not an attack, just curious?????

"The fact of the matter is a matter of fact" -Black Thought

"I can make a 80yard dash and come back fast, wack rappers are left in the back like a jackass"-Kool G Rap

**This goes out to my NIGGA MalcomX**-NAS (idiot)

  

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Apocalypse
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Sat Jun-09-01 06:51 PM

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141. "RE: My question - Dante's inferno"
In response to Reply # 110


          

I think that many times in being confrontational and debating, we can become irrational. What difference does that make? He wasn't shot in the head. The cross is a memorial of sacrifice. With that train of thinking, let's question every statue, tombstone, or any other memorial that people use as a sign to remember something significant. C'mon cuz, we can do better than that!

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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Wise_7

Fri Jun-08-01 08:14 AM

  
113. "a simple question."
In response to Reply # 0


          

No biblical text citation involved.
Why is it that Christianity is so dogmatic about their ways, especially involving eating the "body" and drinking the "blood" of Christ, but they ridicule other cultures that they deem "paganistic" just because they do things similar?
The Romans ate the body of Christ/ the ancient Mayans would eat the body of their slain enemy (believing that they would extract the power).




"People think they make music, still/ when music is there without you or me, we just manipulate/ for better or worse, so let it situate"- Deltron

  

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hope
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Fri Jun-08-01 08:15 AM

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114. "What is with Communion?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I've been a Christian most of my life and I never understood the whole concept of Communion... I know we are told it represents the blood, but the more I research this, I'm beginning to discover that there are some paganistic ritualistic aspects to it. I have not been able to participate in Communion for some time now because I don't like legalistic things, meaning what does eating a cracker and drinking grape juice got to do with my relationship to god?

  

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rgv
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Fri Jun-08-01 08:37 AM

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115. "thats rite"
In response to Reply # 114


          

i believe i read sumwhere that when trying to convert pagans they adapted sum of their practices, one being cannabilism.

thats why the crackers and wine represent the blood and body of christ

{im not 100% sure, but i believe i did read sumthin to that effect}



"God is..She's like a motherly
Che Guevara, benevolent,
like 6 feet tall with dreadlocks,
a big machine gun and a
beautiful laugh... maybe."

~ okp DJ Scratch n Sniff

i just want chu to know
how i feel
how i feel

  

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wonluv
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Fri Jun-08-01 08:39 AM

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116. "It's just........"
In response to Reply # 114


  

          


symbolic of what Christ did for us on the cross. that's all. i think it's just a remimder (do this in rememberance of me). i know that some "Christian" denominations ritualize it to the point that the whole ceremony is in rememberance of the ceremony itself, and not of Christ.

******************************************************************
"i write to let my soul fly higher, while ya'll defeatin' the purpose like black highlighters"-wonluv

******************************************************************
"i write to let my soul fly higher, while ya'll defeatin' the purpose like black highlighters"-wonluv

~sicknature~ My financial skills/discipline need Jesus. -J-Skivvy

****We need more Pharoahe Monch!!!****

  

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hope
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Fri Jun-08-01 08:49 AM

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117. "RE: It's just........"
In response to Reply # 116


  

          

Every day I wake up I am reminded of what Christ has done for me, as most Christians are... I just really don't see the point of symbolicaly eating him. I also feel that all belief systems should evolve and not continue archaic rituals.

  

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wonluv
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Fri Jun-08-01 08:57 AM

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119. "i feel you........."
In response to Reply # 117


  

          

but i don't think it was a commandment. He said "as often as you do this...". i don't think we have to do it. it's a choice. i think God would rather you remember Him by how you live anyway. but that's just my opinion.

******************************************************************
"i write to let my soul fly higher, while ya'll defeatin' the purpose like black highlighters"-wonluv

~sicknature~ My financial skills/discipline need Jesus. -J-Skivvy

****We need more Pharoahe Monch!!!****

  

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Jennyfer
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Fri Jun-08-01 11:40 AM

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127. "RE: communion"
In response to Reply # 117


          

is Symbolic as Wonluv stated.........


In the gospel of John Jesus explians to the crowd he just fed
that (6: 26) .....you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate loaves and had your fill. Do not wrok for the food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you."

Then the crowd referred back to the time of Moses when Isreal was in the desert for 40 years. saying (v.31) "our forefathers
ate the Manna (bread) in the desert as it is written "He gave them bread from heaven to eat"

Jesus replyed (v.32) ".....it is not moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread (refering to Himself) from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from Heaven and give life to the World"

The symbolism here is the The Manna bread Saved the life of Isreal when they were in the desert for 40 years. Christ is saying He is the Bread that will give eternal life.

I know yall are like Jenny how in the world does this go with Communion.....well im get to that right now.

Let's move over to (v.53) "Jesus said to them I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and i will raise him in the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my Blood remains in me, and I in him."


This passage precludes a direct reference to the Lord's supper
(Luke 22: 14-20) Where Christ took the bread and said Take this and eat, this is my body. Then he took the cup and said this is my blood of the covenant.... (paraphrased) Jesus stated to do this in remberance of me.


Now the symbolism is that Christ is the Source of eternal life through His sacrifical atonement on the cross. The Bread- Christ is the sustenance of One's life. The Blood - washes away the sins of the world. We practices communion in the rememberance of Christ's sacrifice for the world. These passages is where it stems from.

Disclaimer-- Christ does not teach that receiving the sacrament of communion is the requirement for eternal life. He teaches that Only Trust and belief through His sacrifical atonement is salvation received.

Disclaimer of the Disclaimer....The ritual stems from Luke and Paul recording that Christ asked for us to continue this. John (6: 53) reinforces the symbolic use of bread and wine.

  

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rgv
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Fri Jun-08-01 08:52 AM

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118. "u gotta eat em,"
In response to Reply # 116


          

to think of em?

*is bout to get sarcastic soon*

this is whut i mean~

"God is..She's like a motherly
Che Guevara, benevolent,
like 6 feet tall with dreadlocks,
a big machine gun and a
beautiful laugh... maybe."

~ okp DJ Scratch n Sniff

i just want chu to know
how i feel
how i feel

  

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Apocalypse
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Sat Jun-09-01 07:08 PM

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142. "RE: What is with Communion?"
In response to Reply # 114


          

There are no paganistic rituals connected to communion because you are not canabalizing. Communion is a symbolinc depiction of the last supper. Christ referred to himself as the bread of life throughout His ministry (see Matthew 14, John 6) and if you read the scripture concerning communion you will see that Paul was quoting Christ based on what was told to him by the apostles at the last supper.

"For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you. That the Lord Jesus the same night he was betrayed took bread;
And when He had given thanks he took bread, and broke it, and said, 'Take eat, this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in rememberance of me.'
After the same manner, he also took the cup, when he had supped, saying, 'This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in rememberance of me.'
For as often as ye eat this bread and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death until he comes . . .
I Corinthians 11:23-26

Where's the canaballism?

Communion rituals had been used since the first passover, commemorating God's redemptive acts, starting with the Exodus and moving forward. To be totally honest with you, i don't see where your confusion is to the point of parallism between figurative references made by Christ and canabalizing people. I think we're reaching here . . .

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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village
Member since Dec 28th 2002
2 posts
Fri Jun-08-01 09:00 AM

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121. "RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Blessings Kings and Queens,
How is everyone, hope all is well with you. TO Apocolapse (My spelling may be off), but great topic. Its not often you see a Christian open minded to criticsm. In fact, some may say that it is an oxymoron. Which leads me to one of my biggest problems with Christianity or any other religion for that matter, which believes their way is the way to God (heaven). I could be wrong, but I would say that no one really knows the way to God. What someone may say in person, or in a book, or whatever is just their opinion. However, through life experience Christians have been the most close minded religion. Unless, you believe Jesus Christ is your personal lord and savior is the way you make it to heaven. Bullsh*t! What about someone, who has never heard of Jesus in their life or someone who has heard, but has their own faith? Personally, I dont believe the story of Jesus, but I do get the point of the parable. However, I feel if you get all caught up in believing and having to believe I feel you miss the point. I have watched countless movies that I know for a fact was fiction, but I have learned lessons from. Also, limiting God's words. Christians or maybe the ones I've been in contact with, seem to believe that all the truths to life is in the Bible. Now dont get me wrong, the Bible is a fountain of knowlegde . However, I have a huge problem with anyone saying tha. God has the ability to speak through anyone or anything be it a book, movie, person, animal or whatever. Also, any type of religions is based on beliefs. Beliefs come from culture. So when you adapt a religion you are in fact taking on the belief system and culture from whatever group the religion is from. Keeping this in mind, what culture does Christianity stem from? Can we see any connections. Another issue I have is with it's application in to modern times. Now, I'm aware that many of the same truths and lessons would remain evident regardless of the times, however many are questionable. For example, the dreaded Sex before marriage. I totally agree with it, however those was thousands of years ago when men and women where well into their families by 21. How rare is that sight in 2001. While were speaking of examples, what the deal with how much you give to the church. Ten percent? What the f*ck? When did God start practicing man's mathematics? It would be safe to say he/she is bigger than all of that. Can this also be a reflection of culture? Keep in mind, Christianity's infancy years saw people paying for sins. Try convincing someone black, now, yesterday, or tommorow that non-sense. If you pay me, God will forgive you? Sh*t, ask his ass can I pay in installments? What God knows my credit problem better than you or I. Let me stop trippin, but when I come up with some more, I will hit you over the head with them. Until then, Peace Kings and Queens and Apocalypse keep this in mind. Continue to question and if another questions tells you to stop questioning God. Tell them, I'm not questioning God it's man. He's the evil motherf*cker that lies. Also, the smartest kid in the class be it a dumb or smart questions, asks the most questions. That is why he/she is so knowledgeable.

  

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Editor
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Fri Jun-08-01 10:12 AM

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124. "RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?"
In response to Reply # 121


  

          

Village you are officially my hero for today!!!!!! -hehehe
ONE LOVE!!!!!

"The fact of the matter is a matter of fact" -Black Thought

"I can make a 80yard dash and come back fast, wack rappers are left in the back like a jackass"-Kool G Rap

**This goes out to my NIGGA MalcomX**-NAS (idiot)

  

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DeepThoughts

Fri Jun-08-01 03:13 PM

  
136. "RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?"
In response to Reply # 121


          

I agree!!!

*PEACE*

  

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Apocalypse
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Sat Jun-09-01 07:43 PM

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143. "RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?"
In response to Reply # 121


          

>Blessings Kings and Queens,
> How is everyone, hope all
>is well with you. TO
>Apocolapse (My spelling may be
>off), but great topic. Its
>not often you see a
>Christian open minded to criticsm.
>In fact, some may say
>that it is an oxymoron.

Thanks, I try . . .

>Which leads me to one
>of my biggest problems with
>Christianity or any other religion
>for that matter, which believes
>their way is the way
>to God (heaven). I could
>be wrong, but I would
>say that no one really
>knows the way to God.
>What someone may say in
>person, or in a book,
>or whatever is just their
>opinion. However, through life experience
>Christians have been the most
>close minded religion.

I agree with you on many Christians being closed minded, I'll show you why In just a minute . . .

Unless, you
>believe Jesus Christ is your
>personal lord and savior is
>the way you make it
>to heaven. Bullsh*t! What about
>someone, who has never heard
>of Jesus in their life
>or someone who has heard,
>but has their own faith?

You bring up a huge debate. Now for the record I do believe that Christ is the only way to heaven, I do believe in the inerrancy of Scripture and I do believe in hell. But keep something in mind: It wasn't until many "Christians" became ignorant that the gospel became bad news, complete with threats and promises of hellfire. Gospel comes from a greek word which is translated "good news". Long story short, to understand this, you have to understand the political climate, particularly for Jews during Jesus' life. Because Romans ran everything, when Jesus came saying that the kingdom of God was at hand and preaching it's gospel, people thought he was going to set up an earthly kingdom, but he was talking about a spiritual kingdom. That answer may not be as complete as you'd like, but I don't have much time. Later if you'd like I can explain more. As far as people never hearing of Jesus, he promised that he would not return until the gospel was preached in every nation, but it is the responsibility of believers to share the message (not force conversion, mind you, with scare tactics and such, because, contrary to popular belief, that's not God's MO.

>Personally, I dont believe the
>story of Jesus, but I
>do get the point of
>the parable. However, I feel
>if you get all caught
>up in believing and having
>to believe I feel you
>miss the point. I have
>watched countless movies that I
>know for a fact was
>fiction, but I have learned
>lessons from. Also, limiting God's
>words. Christians or maybe the
>ones I've been in contact
>with, seem to believe that
>all the truths to life
>is in the Bible. Now
>dont get me wrong, the
>Bible is a fountain of
>knowlegde . However, I have
>a huge problem with anyone
>saying tha. God has the
>ability to speak through anyone
>or anything be it a
>book, movie, person, animal or
>whatever.

Here's where I agree with you. Jesus said he was the truth (John 14:6). Now this may be radical thinking for a Christian, but there is truth out there in other sources and RELIGIONS than the Bible and Christianity. However, they all point back to Christ. I have gotten many life lessons from various books, songs, tapes, etc. that were not Christian based.

Also, any type of
>religions is based on beliefs.
>Beliefs come from culture. So
>when you adapt a religion
>you are in fact taking
>on the belief system and
>culture from whatever group the
>religion is from.

I agree with you to a certain extent. For example, when I was in Kenya four yrs. ago, people worshipped much differntly than the did in churches here. In fact, the main commonality was Christ, but the music, dance, styles of preaching, and overall worship was based on the culture. However, I do not believe that culture limits ones ability to know about certain religions and belief systems, especially with the technology available today.

Keeping this
>in mind, what culture does
>Christianity stem from? Can we
>see any connections.

Understand that culture is rooted in the word "cult", which simply means "system of worship". What system of worship is Chrsitianity rooted in? It's foundation is Judaism, with Christ totally fulfilling the entire Old Testament, all laws, covenants, and promises. Christainity itself was not used as a term until Acts 11:35 when the beleivers at the Church in Antioch were called Christians because their lifestyle was Christ-like. Remember that Christ was a Jew in practice and culture, but totally went against the grain concerning many of their rituals and practices, that's why he was killed by them.

Another issue
>I have is with it's
>application in to modern times.
>Now, I'm aware that many
>of the same truths and
>lessons would remain evident regardless
>of the times, however many
>are questionable. For example, the
>dreaded Sex before marriage. I
>totally agree with it, however
>those was thousands of years
>ago when men and women
>where well into their families
>by 21. How rare is
>that sight in 2001.

Check my sig, concerning purpose. Sex is abused because it's not used for its intended purpose, to be enjoyed and shared by a married couple for passion, intimacy, soul connection, pleasure, consummation of a covenant, and of course, procreation. Sex is probably the most spiritual physical act (understand my words, not a typo) that people can commit. Look at the condition and image of sex today. It's marketed, abused, perverted and has been turned into everything but that which it was designed to be, though all the things that it was designed to do still happen.

While
>were speaking of examples, what
>the deal with how much
>you give to the church.
>Ten percent? What the f*ck?

Concerning tithing . . . Do it tithe and give offerings to my church. Absolutely! Tithing was practiced since Abraham's days. A quick and dirty explaination . . . Tithing was practiced to sustain the priesthood so that they could tend to the spiritual needs of the people. If you read the Law, particularly Leviticus 27:29-32 you'll see the tithing process. Now the priests would then tithe off of their income, whether it be in the form of money or goods, and put it in the storehouse for the people in case of times of war and famine. That's why, whenever there were battles in the Bible, nations would always go for the other nation's storehouse, to destroy their food and resources. Now, Everything done in the old testament was typology concerning Christ. Think of it as 4,000 years of foreshadowing. The church is like unto the temple today and tithes are used (should be, if the ministry has any integrity) towards the furthuring of ministerial work. Do i believe in giving to my pastor and helping support him. Absolutely! I'm no idiot and I'm not gonna get pimped for my cash. However, I do know that a) it's not easy being a pastor, especially if he's really leading his people, b) that giving can never hurt me, provided that it's not done in ignorance and doesn't take away from my provisions for my family, and c) it's between me and God. Tithing is designed to signify that you see God as the source for all that you have (I understand that you work, etc. but at some point, God had to help you do what you do, even if it's sustaining your life and good health, you follow?). Offerings are totally up to you, if you feel that you shouldn't give, then don't. Oh yeah, nowhere in scripture did it command a Non-Israelite, or in the New Testament, a non-believer to tithe or give, so none of this applies to you anyway (You did say you were a non-believer, right, no disrespect, just making sure I have my facts right).

Just trying to shed some light on your questions. You are a mature adult, what you believe is totally up to you. Peace!

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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LexM
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Wed Jun-13-01 06:40 AM

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188. "i would only disagree"
In response to Reply # 121


  

          

with this:

> However, I have
>a huge problem with anyone
>saying tha. God has the
>ability to speak through anyone
>or anything be it a
>book, movie, person, animal or
>whatever.

otherwise, on point!



~~~SPITFIRE: AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
HipHop. Old school style. In Full Effect. Want Info? Email: carameldom@hotmail.com

http://www.welcome.to/okaypoets (u ain't a real okayplayer if u ain't been here)

"cats pop champagne/over misery and pain/like slaves on the ship/talkin 'bout/who got the flyest chains" ~~Talib Kweli

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
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http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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DeepThoughts

Fri Jun-08-01 03:02 PM

  
135. "RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I have a LOT of problems with Christianity...I was raised in the faith and even went to a Christian school.
My problem is:

EVIL- I don't undersand why it exists and apparently neither do a bunch of pastors my mom's had me talk to. Was god just bored so he decided to make a universe and people on a planet just to show how "great" he is? And to prove how "great" he is, to make the decision of good or bad on that planet so that he would show his "love" by sending his son to die for us? And why couldn't god just fast forward this terrible time on earth and just make his followers in heaven?? Which brings us to another thing...if he already knows I'm going to hell, why did he make me and countless others? Sure, we have the choice to love him or leave him, but if he already knows the end why make us suffer more.
Just look at the news....I become soooo depressed and often even cry reading the newspaper. There is so much hate in this world and I really don't see why god needed us.
If you can give me the answers to my questions I'll gladly accept Christianity again.

deepthoughts

  

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Apocalypse
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Sat Jun-09-01 08:14 PM

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144. "RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?"
In response to Reply # 135


          

>I have a LOT of problems
>with Christianity...I was raised in
>the faith and even went
>to a Christian school.
>My problem is:
>
>EVIL- I don't undersand why it
>exists and apparently neither do
>a bunch of pastors my
>mom's had me talk to.
>Was god just bored so
>he decided to make a
>universe and people on a
>planet just to show how
>"great" he is?

First, we've got to understand that God didn't decide to make evil. Evil is a by-product of decisions. People make the mistake of seeing God as some sick sadist that just sits and makes up ill ways to screw over humans only to get them out of jams and puff his proverbial chest. Not so. Evil was a result of a decision, meaning this. All of God's creation with souls (humans and angels, soul is the mind, emotions, and will. see the word psychology, psyche - soul, logy - study, the study of the soul . . .). Surely you've heard the story of Lucipher and his fall due to pride. God's original plan was for the Garden to be the way things were, but again, a decision to disobey restrictions allowed the consequences of sin to enter the world. Now, contrary to popular belief, God doesn't have control over everything that every person does, If that were the case, there would be no such thing as free will. The potential of evil was always here because free will is the basis of relationship, which is all God seeks from all of us. But the problem is, people can choose to go in a different direction from God, and evil tends to be the result. Hope that helped some, if not post again.

And to
>prove how "great" he is,
>to make the decision of
>good or bad on that
>planet so that he would
>show his "love" by sending
>his son to die for
>us? And why couldn't god
>just fast forward this terrible
>time on earth and just
>make his followers in heaven??

if he did that, how would he know who his followers were? Contrary to popular belief, God is very practical. If you can understand that relationship with God is predicated on free will and that God makes NO ONE do ANYTHING, then you will understand that Christ was not a boast of power, but an act of love. it was a way for bad decisions to be paid for and go away. Study in Law and the role of the scapegoat, the sacrifical lamb for passover, and the Sacrifice of Atonement (LEviticus 16:20-28, 16:1-19, and Exodus 12, in that order). Christ was the fulfillment of all of these. The Old testament is an incredible typology of Jesus. He told the Pharisees "Search the Scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life, but they are they which testify of me." (John 5:39). Remember that the New testament did not exist when he said this, therefore, he was speaking of the Law, Psalms, Proverbs, the History books and the Prophets, or in short, the Old Testament. I'm saying that God didn't want us to be forced to love or have intimate relationship with him because, if we really think about it, who wants a mate that's only with them because they're scared of what'll happen to them if they're not with them (see, people only saved for fear of hell), or because they were forced into it?

>Which brings us to another
>thing...if he already knows I'm
>going to hell, why did
>he make me and countless
>others? Sure, we have the
>choice to love him or
>leave him, but if he
>already knows the end why
>make us suffer more.

Again, back to free will. Who says that you're going to hell? True, there will be people in hell, but for the most part it will be by there own decisions as to whether or not accept Christ. For arguments, sake IF there is a hell (I do believe in hell), how many there do you think still don't believe Christ isn't who he says he is (food for thought). Anyway, it is my personal belief that God doesn't look at everyone and say "This one's going to Heaven, this one to hell." God gave everyone the choice to either accept Christ or not. Christ died for everyone (see I John 2:2), not just believers. Therefore if EVERYONE didn't have a chance, his death was incomplete. This how I see it, God knows all things, but he hasn't experienced all things. To me this means that he knows every possible choice that you can make, but ahsn't experienced you making a choice on everything. Remember Isaac? Abraham was about to sacrifice him and God told him to stop, saying that he knew that Abraham reverenced God and put nothing before him because he was willing to sacrifice his son for him. The word know in that scripture is the Hebrew Word "yadah", meaning to know intimately and be experience, not just by knowledge (incidently, it's also the word that is used for sex, like when a man knew a woman).

>Just look at the news....I become
>soooo depressed and often even
>cry reading the newspaper. There
>is so much hate in
>this world and I really
>don't see why god needed
>us.
>If you can give me the
>answers to my questions I'll
>gladly accept Christianity again.

I hope I've at least shedded some light on your dilemma. I don't claim to know everything. If you want, you can email me at hortoninc@hotmail.com and we can build more and I can try to get a bit more in-depth with you and answer whatever questions you have. In the meantime, I will pray for you that God lead you and guide you.

Peace

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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Honeyy

Fri Jun-08-01 03:56 PM

  
137. "RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I believe that most christians that I come across are not aware of the reasons as to why they are what they say they are. I personally have not found a man-organized religion that I find believable in it's entirety. I have been in a state of search for about 5 years and I find more reasons to oppose this institution than to adopt it personally. However, I feel that whatever people do that makes them be beautiful people is great and they should stick to it. Thank you

  

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Apocalypse
Charter member
611 posts
Sat Jun-09-01 08:16 PM

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145. "RE: Got beef w/ Christianity?"
In response to Reply # 137


          

>I believe that most christians that
>I come across are not
>aware of the reasons as
>to why they are what
>they say they are.

I agree

Apocalypse

"When purpose is not known, abuse is inevitable . . ."

"And that's all I have to say about that . . ." ~ Forrest Gump

  

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abduhu
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Mon Jun-11-01 01:37 AM

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146. "Prophet Muhammad (saws)"
In response to Reply # 0


          

this is not a beef w/ christianity, but i felt that this was the appropiate thread to pose this question.

i would like to know why dont christians accept Prophet Muhammad (saws) and the message given to him-The Qur'an?


subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You). ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped except You). astaghfiruka (I seek Your forgiveness), wa attuubu ilaika (and I turn to You in Repentance).

  

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CoolV

Mon Jun-11-01 04:29 AM

  
147. "Beef? Never that!!"
In response to Reply # 146


          

However, there are a ton of things I'd love to comment on, reply to, and just outright correct. Just to give a little background on myself, I was a young male who grew up in the Baptist church with a strong father, commited mother and Christian family.

Raised in St. Louis, Mo. in a middle class black (majority Christian, far as I could tell) neighborhood, I grew up like most kids on my block under the same influences of the time. Like some of you, I heard the same 'you gonna go to hell' rhetoric as a kid that kept me absolutely scared straight!! (I'm laughing now at the memory of it all.)

I said all of that to say I'm quite familiar w/ the church and Christianity...as it was taught to us in the west...and at the time, I accepted what I was given w/ out ?'s.

Not to tell my life story to y'all, (I don't want to bore anyone to death in here), but to make a long story short, along comes this man named the Hon. Min. Louis Farrakhan and life as I knew it was history. The lies that governed my life peeled away when truth was introduced. The hypocrisy and paganism has been exposed, unveiled, discovered and uncovered!! (Examples can be given upon request.)

I was once blind, but now I see!

Let's begin w/ post #83, shall we. (hey, that rhymed! I wanna record deal!!)

The person (I forget who)writes: "It is'nt of God to force ppl to convert" and "God respects a persons free will." The writer then adds that "...God never forces a person to accept Christ."

Is this the same God that caused the great flood of Noah's time?
Is this the same God that caused it to rain fire on Sodom and Gommorah?
Is this the same God that destroyed -hell, you pick a city- killing scores of ppl for not obeying His messengers???

I believe you get my drift and if not, what I'm saying in short is "free will" my foot.

Sure, as human beings, we have the right to choose and decide if we want to obey divine laws and instruction but if a study of His actions throughout history show a pattern of distruction of those who were disobedient (and they do)...guess what???

YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT (if you have any sense) TO DISOBEY ALLAH!

Case in point. Take a look at Jonah. Turned out to be a great messenger. The only messenger to ever save a city from destruction, in fact. The city of Ninevah, to be exact. The point I'm getting at in this example is this: Did Jonah WANT to be a servant/messenger for Allah???

NO!

He ran for it. We all know how the story turned out. In short, in his get away attempt, he's thrown off the boat, ate by a whale, whale spits 'em out, now he's ready to serve God.

According to my studies, Allah always tends to use a bit of coersion (sp?), does'nt he

I don't profess to know it all, but that's just my take on the matter.

I will next entertain post #72 by Loryn.




******************************************************
"When the Black Man of North America makes up his mind to be that which Allah has created him to be, which is a replica of Himself, then and only then can he call the universe into order."

-Me.

  

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CoolV

Mon Jun-11-01 05:36 AM

  
148. "And now, post #72..."
In response to Reply # 147


          

"Actually, what I choose to follow in the Bible is my choice. God gave us all a free will to do whatever we want."

See above argument.

Previous post you replied to I'd like to comment on...

>your church, for example, says that
>women can't wear pants.
>my grandma doesn't wear pants
>because she can point out
>in the bible where it
>says a woman should not
>wear the clothes of a
>man.

And then you said,

"two words: old convenant.

the place in the Bible where it says a woman cannot wear anything pertaining to a man (still don't agree--butt tight bellbottoms are not masculine) is in the old testament.

I'm not saying that all of the old testament is invalid because of Jesus' crucifixion. I'm saying that some of the practices (such as women not wearing pants, and even burnt sacrfices) are no loonger needed because of the Crucifixion in the New covenant--the New Testament."

I agree obviously that what was "masculine" then is probably not now, therefore, leaving this open for argument. My concern is your reasoning for not complying w/ said scripture.

"Old covenant."
Please expound on this.
And...

It seems to me that the latter of your two points on this matter are contradictory. At first you say, "I'm not saying that all of the old testament is invalid because of Jesus' crucifixion."

And then you follow it in the next breath saying, "I'm saying that some of the practices (such as women not wearing pants, and even burnt sacrfices) are no loonger needed because of the Crucifixion in the New covenant--the New Testament."

The phrase "no longer needed" would imply that the former is no longer necessary or invalid.

Maybe *I* just don't understand. But I guess you could say I'm like MC Lyte, 'cause I "cram to understand you."

Then the guy asks you..
>i know that there is the
>argument that interpretation has a
>lot to do with it,
>and there are a lot
>of things that are just
>out dated. but if
>you can say that about
>the way you dress, what's
>to say that key principles
>about Chirstianity aren't a matter
>of interpretation too?

And you replied...
"The Gospels record the Crucifixion of Christ. I don't think his death is open to interpretation. The filling of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues in Acts 2 isn't really open to interpretation. It's right there in black and white. You don't really need any further analysis about what the Last Supper meant. But I feel you. Some things--"Turn the other cheek", "Judge not lest ye be judged", etc. Are open to interpretation. But the actual happenings? Somehow I doubt that."

Hhmmmmm. I find it interesting that you say something like "speaking in toungues" which no one *I* know can interpret, is self explanatory (furthermore, you say it is'nt up for interpretation. If not, why?), yet a universal principal like "Judge not lest ye be judged" is up for intellectual grabs.

Hhmmmmm.


Now this part is my personal favorite. The person asks you...

>does that mean that where it
>says non-Christians are essentially going
>to hell is another thing
>that can be argued down
>too?

And you say...

"That's one of those things that isn't open to interpretaion in my opinion. --ALTHOUGH I think there are several people who call themselves Christians who are going to hell. Jesus even said it himself--and i'm paraphrasing-- 'Not all who say 'Lord, Lord', will enter the Kingdom of Heaven'."

One thing I find interesting in this part of what you said, actually, is what you DID'NT say. He engaged you w/ a direct ?. He (basically) asks 'are non-Christians going to hell?", and as opposed to saying 'Yes, they are going to hell' or 'No, they will be forced to watch re-runs of Welcome Back Koter (add Horshack laugh here) until their eyes fall out' or something, you sidestep the question *in my opinion*. Say what you mean and mean what you say!

This is the reason why ppl are rejecting religion as a whole. Because of statements like this. Not one place in the scripture did Jesus call himself a "Christian" or ask anyone else, for that matter to call themselves "Christians", yet you have the **opinion** (boy, I wish I could use italics) that "this is'nt open for interpretation."

No where in the scriptures is it found that to enter the Hereafter (heaven, as you call it) that being a "Christian" is the prerequisite. If so, please point it out to me. I could be wrong and If so, I can stand to be corrected. But until then, let us not put our narrow limitations on Allah.

Note: What I'm writing here is not in the spirit of just being ignorant and argumentative. To this day, I can call myself a Christian (in addition to being a Muslim) and be accurate because I now understand what this really means. This is to offend no one. I'm here to teach and learn...just like you

Abduhu asks a very interesting ? I'd like to see answered, too.

***********************************************************
"When the Black Man of North America makes up his mind to be that which Allah has created him to be, which is a replica of Himself, then and only then can he call the universe into order."

-Me.

  

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CoolV

Mon Jun-11-01 06:34 AM

  
150. "Closing thoughts...(c) Jerry Springer"
In response to Reply # 148


          

Currently, I'm reading a book entitled "The Spirit of Islam: Doctrine and Teachings" by Afif A. Tabbarah. It brings up a point that I believe is very relevent to the current discussion.

On page 34, the author quotes the Holy Qur'an whereas Allah says:

"Set thou thy face steadily to the ONE FAITH; (emphasis mine) (establish) Allah's handiwork according to the pattern on which wrought out by Allah: That is the STANDARD RELIGION (me, again)-but most men understand not. Establish regular prayers, and be not ye among those who join partners with Allah." -Surah (Chapter) 30, ayat(verse) 30-31.

With the above ayat in mind, the author then says, "The basis of ALL (me, again) religion is the belief in the Creator of the universe, and the acknowledgement that He is One with no partner to share with Him His sovereignty.

With this I add that, in truth, there is no division in faith, but in religion. This begs the question, then, if faith is based on the same tenets, one of the many being the glorification of the One true God, why does the PRACTICE of said faith divide man?

Another way to pose the same question would be if 4 ppl had one watermelon and divided it 4 ways, why would one call his piece a pinneapple, the other an apple, the other a grapefruit, and yet, the other an orange...and then fight eachother so the other recognizes his fruit by the name HE chose for it??

Obviously, that's a whole 'nother forum, but the underlying point is, in truth, they all have the same fruit, don't they?

In essence, there is only one true "religion", and if it has to have name, it would be called "Obey God." Anything else, really, is fluff. Not that it it's bad 'fluff', but we tend to make the mistake of putting the PRACTICE before the FAITH.

The one God that is referenced above requires one thing from us. Our total submission. Our unequivacol surrender. This is why during prayer service in Islam, we put our faces to the ground to show complete surrender.

The problem is that everyone wants his or her WAY or WALK to the Lord to be the ONLY WAY to Him. Yes, Jesus does provide the BEST example and says the only way to the Father is through him. And he is right. Notice in that scripture, he uses the word 'through'. He is telling us that his WAY is the door to salvation. Not he, himself.

I would strongly admonish all Christians to read the Holy Qur'an and see for yourself the common thread that we share.

Peace,
V.
*************************************************************
"When the Black Man of North America makes up his mind to be that which Allah has created him to be, which is a replica of Himself, then and only then can he call the universe into order."

-Me.

  

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mthompkins

Tue Jun-12-01 12:34 PM

  
165. "RE: Closing thoughts...(c) Jerry Springer"
In response to Reply # 150


          

I wanted to ask you if you could explain to me where Muslims get the name Allah from. Also, could you let me know what the moon and the "*" symbol I see mean to the muslim religion?

I am a Christian and I have seen some of the Christian response on here trying to convince you to believe in Christ and denounce Islam. I noticed that you said that Christianity is another way to get to God and that it is a religion just like other religions. I have heard some other non-christians say that as well.

I want to let you know that unlike some other Christians on here I understand why you believe what you believe. I am not saying I agree, I am just saying I understand.

The reason why I say this is because I come to find that a lot of Christians really believe what they believe, but they really don't understand why they believe what they believe. Don't get me wrong, I am glad they believe, because according to the bible, this is what it takes to get to heaven and be right with God. But if a Christian doesn't understand why they believe what they believe, then Christianity becomes what I call Christianism. Christianism is not true Christianity but an offset of Christianity that believes that one can earn the right to go to heaven. And so Christians, like all other religions have a set guidelines of rules by which we decide who gets to go to heaven and who doesn't. I have also found in my daily encounter with people that out of all the people who have encountered Christianity on this planet, including people who call themselves Christians, 90% of them have only been exposed to Christianism, not true Christianity.

You say what's the difference. Christianism is the belief that works make you righteous or unrighteous. Therefore, based off the amount of good works one does with determine what level of righteousness one can achieve. So if I do 20 good deeds in a week, and 5 bad deeds. And you do 15 good deeds in a week and 7 bad deeds. Then I am more righteous than you are. Because of works. This is something all religions believe and the most righteous person in every religion is the one who does the most deeds. This is why catholics call the disciples and mother Teresa saints because of the number of good works that they done. And the crack head that just got born again yesterday a sinner because he has yet to do good works. This is Christianism. And if this is true Christianity, then you are right, Christianity is no different than any other religion on this planet.

But guess what, this isn't true Christianity. What I am about to tell you, only about 10% of the Christians on this planet know. But this number is increasing everyday for those who believe.

The one thing we can agree on is this, there is ONE God, and He is perfect. That's where our agreement ends. What follows is the difference between true Christianity and every other religion in the world. You know the story, God made man(Adam) in His image and likeness. Adam was created perfect. He was right with God yet He did absolutely nothing to earn it. He had no rules to follow, no rituals to commit to. He didn't have to go to church on Sunday or Saturday, there was no 10 commandments, keeping the Sabbath all these rules that we have in religion today. Adam did nothing to earn God's righteousness, He was simply made in the image and likeness of God, perfect. Then God gives Him one commandment, no rituals, no rules, just one commandment, don't eat from that tree. And Adam was perfect. He walked with God in His holiness being just as Holy as God, because God took His holiness and gave it to Adam and created Adam with it.

Now, you have to agree that this was God's ultimate will for man. That we be holy and perfect just like Him. But God didn't want robots, he wanted beings who would choose to obey Him. But the problem with that is, a human was free to choose not to obey Him. But God wanted His dream to come true, never the less. His own children that He could show His goodness too. Look at all the stuff God put in the garden. Adam wanted for nothing. But Adam disobeyed, and he lost that holiness. He was no longer right with God. He could no longer commune with God like He could in the garden. And not only Adam, but all humans born after him. But God wasn't satisfied with this. he made a promise to Eve that her seed would bruise the serpents head, meaning there would be a man who would have authority over the serpent again. This authority was shown when God said that the satan would bruise his heel meaning satan or the serpent would be beneath this man's feet.

So along comes Moses. God gives Moses the law and says to Moses, to be right with me, keep all my commandments. 613 commandments. No one could do it. Everyone made mistakes. Some more than others but to be perfect would require someone keeping the law without ever making one mistake. So for the next 1500 years, no one on earth was able to do this. It seems like man would never be able to be right with God again. But God had a plan even before Adam sinned. He set up the system by saying anyone(human) who could live a perfect life would not only be right with me but equal with Me in Holiness. Anyone who can't do this, they can't abide with Me in heaven.

So that was God's requirement, perfection. But only God was perfect. Only God could keep His own commandments. So the only choice God had was to make Himself flesh. To be born as a Jew and keep His own commandments. So God took His word. Because God and His word are one. And he wrapped His word in flesh literally becoming One with His own creation.

Now I know you don't believe this, but because we are all the seed of Adam, no human being born of a mother and father could be perfect, no one. Not Muhammad, not Buddha, no one. You could do all the good works you could and you would still make a mistake and come short of God. And coming short of God won't suffice. Because no matter how many good works you did, you would all be judged for what Adam did. Which seems unfair. But since by one man, all was made unrighteous, then only by One man can all become righteous. Adam was made righteous, so God had to make another man. Someone who didn't come to earth by natural means but supernatural. So God impregnated a woman. He took her egg and made her egg one with His word. This was prophesized in the old testament.(Let me know if you want the scriptures). And so God's word became flesh. And when God's word became flesh, this fleshly version of God was called His Son. Not because the Father came before the word, but because the Word became flesh. And so Jesus now, being 100% man, yet 100% God refered to God as His Father, only because He now had flesh. And He kept every commandment and became a sacrifice.

In the old testament, Jews sacrificed animals for their sins. The reason they could do this was because an animal couldn't be guilty of sin. So what the Jewish priest would do, is impute all the sins of man on this goat and kill the goat thereby killing sin. But the problem was, the blood of animals was only temporary, this is why the Jews had to do this, year after year. But when God made Himself flesh, lives with no sin, and became a sacrifice. His blood is eternal. So what the blood of Jesus did was clean sin forever. It was able to go into the past and clean the sins of the men and women who lived before that time, yet go into the future and cleanse us who were not yet born or had believed. Therefore Jesus, became the final sacrifice for sin.

So my this is what seperates Christianity from any other religion. First of all, Christianity is not a religion, but a belief. A belief that says God demands perfection. In Adam, we all come short of God. But in Jesus(covered and washed by His sacrificial blood) we are MADE(like Adam) right with God. So even when I mess up, I always get judged based off what Jesus did, which is perfection. Where as an unbeliever, who may do more good deeds than me, will always be judged based off what Adam did. No other religion on earth, teaches this or claims this. The whole point of Christianity is this, you can cannot earn the righteouness of God, you have to be made that way. And the only way that you can be made that way is to believe. It's so simple that people stumble over it. Humans judge each other based off works. It is our nature, and now these people are going around telling Christians all I have to do is believe, and I be made righteous.

And then you say, well that means I can sin all I want right? Since the blood has already covered. But the thing is though, if God makes you like Him, then your nature will be a God nature, which means you won't practice sin, you'll practice what you are, righteousness. And when you do sin, because we still have this sinful flesh from Adam, the blood of Jesus has already covered it and took care of it. This allows man to stay where Adam was before he fell, in right standing with God. God used the sacrifice system so that man would never require another sacrifice.

I can't wait to here how Islam thinks about this.

  

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CoolV

Wed Jun-13-01 02:38 AM

  
174. "Plenty of things I could say...."
In response to Reply # 165


          

about your comments, MThompkins, just wish I had more time to expound on your post. You covered a lot of ground there and I'll try to hit it up line-for-line when I get back.

I will say this, however. Alot of ppl misunderstood my position on "Free Will." Like my post says, I understand totally that man does, indeed, have a "free will" and can make decisions to disobey Allah. This, obviously, is true.

What I was alluding to is this:

Your mama told you not to reach in the jar to get a cookie, because you might knock it off the counter and break the jar. In fact, she threatens you w/ a beatin' if you try.

And as sure as Wesley Snipes is black, when mama is out of sight, you reach for the jar...and just like she said, you dropped it and broke it. Mama walks back in and she's pullin' out the belt. You know what follows.

My point is, you did'nt have the right (to choose) in the first place. I hope that you're seeing my point, 'cause I may not be expressing my thoughts clearly.


**********************************************************
"When the Black Man of North America makes up his mind to be that which Allah has created him to be, which is a replica of Himself, then and only then can he call the universe into order."

-Me.

  

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CoolV

Wed Jun-13-01 08:42 AM

  
197. "To Mr. Thompkins...From V."
In response to Reply # 165


          

Due to the length of your post, I'll just address the points I wanted to respond to.

>I wanted to ask you if
>you could explain to me
>where Muslims get the name
>Allah from.

According to my current studies, "Allah", is derived from the root word "Ilu", found in the dialect of the Semites meaning 'one God'. To quote from the book I mentioned a few posts ago, the writer says "Ilu", whose name was later modified in their dialects into 'Yahweh', 'Jahweh', 'Jehova', and 'Elohim' with the Hebrews and 'Allat', 'Allah', and 'Ilah' with the Arabs. The origin of all these, however, is 'Ilu'.


Also, could you
>let me know what the
>moon and the "*" symbol
>I see mean to the
>muslim religion?

As a member of the Nation of Islam, I can only explain it as it was taught to us by the Hon. Elijah Muhammad.

The Moon is represents equality and the star, justice.

There is a greatly detailed explanation and reason behind this, so for further details, read his book entitled "Message to the Black Man in America" regarding our flag.

>I want to let you know
>that unlike some other Christians
>on here I understand why
>you believe what you believe.
>I am not saying I
>agree, I am just saying
>I understand.

Quick question. How does one gain "understanding" but not "agreement" whereas this is concerned?

>But if a Christian doesn't
>understand why they believe what
>they believe, then Christianity becomes
>what I call Christianism. Christianism
>is not true Christianity but
>an offset of Christianity that
>believes that one can earn
>the right to go to
>heaven.

I "understand" and "agree."

>The one thing we can agree
>on is this, there is
>ONE God, and He is
>perfect. That's where our agreement
>ends.

OK, I'll accept that. A little agreement is better than none at all.

Adam was
>created perfect. He was right
>with God yet He did
>absolutely nothing to earn it.
>He had no rules to
>follow, no rituals to commit
>to.

Hold it right there. As I mention a few posts ago, the ONLY *rule* that divides us (believers from disbelievers) is the 'OBEY GOD RULE'.

>Now I know you don't believe
>this, but because we are
>all the seed of Adam,
>no human being born of
>a mother and father could
>be perfect, no one. Not
>Muhammad, not Buddha, no one.

Now, let's examine this statement for a moment. Since you mention Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and Buddah, why was Jesus not mentioned here? You said 'no one', right? More on this later.

>You could do all the
>good works you could and
>you would still make a
>mistake and come short of
>God. And coming short of
>God won't suffice. Because no
>matter how many good works
>you did, you would all
>be judged for what Adam
>did. Which seems unfair.

And this, Mr. Thompkins, would make Allah unjust. Wouldn't you agree?

So
>God impregnated a woman. He
>took her egg and made
>her egg one with His
>word. This was prophesized in
>the old testament.(Let me know
>if you want the scriptures).
>And so God's word became
>flesh. And when God's word
>became flesh, this fleshly version
>of God was called His
>Son.

Unfortunately, this is where we part ways in understanding of the scripture. That is what we call a "spooky" (no offense) understanding of the Word. If you had a young daughter and she came home pregnant sayin' "it was the 'holy ghost' who did it, daddy", you would'nt be lookin' for a spirit who entered your daughter, would you? You'd be lookin' for a man. A MAN. Jesus is called throughout the scripture the "son of MAN" not "son of SPIRIT." In addition, the "son" factor has always been a point of contention w/ Muslims and Christians. The Holy Qur'an is very clear on this point when it states "He begetteth not, nor is He begotten." I'd elaborate further, but I'll continue for space and time sake.


Not because the Father
>came before the word, but
>because the Word became flesh.
>And so Jesus now, being
>100% man, yet 100% God
>refered to God as His
>Father, only because He now
>had flesh. And He kept
>every commandment and became a
>sacrifice.

Now, according to your understanding, Jesus either suffered from a mental disorder having multiple personalities (:-)) or we don't have a proper understanding of Jesus' identity. The bible that *I* read depicts Jesus as being the servant/messenger and God as the Master.

>In the old testament, Jews sacrificed
>animals for their sins. The
>reason they could do this
>was because an animal couldn't
>be guilty of sin. So
>what the Jewish priest would
>do, is impute all the
>sins of man on this
>goat and kill the goat
>thereby killing sin. But the
>problem was, the blood of
>animals was only temporary, this
>is why the Jews had
>to do this, year after
>year. But when God made
>Himself flesh, lives with no
>sin, and became a sacrifice.
>His blood is eternal. So
>what the blood of Jesus
>did was clean sin forever.
>It was able to go
>into the past and clean
>the sins of the men
>and women who lived before
>that time, yet go into
>the future and cleanse us
>who were not yet born
>or had believed. Therefore Jesus,
>became the final sacrifice for
>sin.

Please tell me where did you get this information so I can read up on this stuff!!! Is this scriptural?

In Adam,
>we all come short of
>God. But in Jesus(covered and
>washed by His sacrificial blood)
>we are MADE(like Adam) right
>with God.

This is a favorite topic of mine that I always have w/ my family (who are majority Christian). I reply to it w/ one ? Min. Farrakhan posed when the subject was introduced:

"If Jesus "paid the price in blood" as the Christians say, why is there still a need for a judgement?"

So even when
>I mess up, I always
>get judged based off what
>Jesus did, which is perfection.
>Where as an unbeliever, who
>may do more good deeds
>than me, will always be
>judged based off what Adam
>did.

Please elaborate and tell how you came to the above conclusion. (?)
Once again, this would make Allah an unjust, biased, even prejudiced God.

>And then you say, well that
>means I can sin all
>I want right? Since the
>blood has already covered. But
>the thing is though, if
>God makes you like Him,
>then your nature will be
>a God nature, which means
>you won't practice sin, you'll
>practice what you are, righteousness.
>And when you do sin,
>because we still have this
>sinful flesh from Adam, the
>blood of Jesus has already
>covered it and took care
>of it. This allows man
>to stay where Adam was
>before he fell, in right
>standing with God. God used
>the sacrifice system so that
>man would never require another
>sacrifice.

Again, this is where there is a parting of the ways between us. There is so much to be said regarding the above paragraph that I don't know where to start. Let's start here:

>And then you say, well that
>means I can sin all
>I want right? Since the
>blood has already covered.

See above question that the Min. posed.

>the thing is though, if
>God makes you like Him,
>then your nature will be
>a God nature, which means
>you won't practice sin, you'll
>practice what you are, righteousness.

Now this sounds good, but it, unfortunately, is contradictory to what you stated above regarding "no one" being capable to walk w/ out sin. So one is forced to ask the question, "can man be sinless or not?" According to you, the answer is no/yes.

?

>And when you do sin,
>because we still have this
>sinful flesh from Adam, the
>blood of Jesus has already
>covered it and took care
>of it.

To me, it looks like there's a "loop hole" in the contract or an "out clause" so to speak. Again, the question is asked "why is there a judgement if Jesus already 'covered it'?" Moreover, if Jesus was sent to be an example to man, his testimonial would have been for naught if the above is true.

Would'nt it be great if when I paid my bills it was a representation of all who owed debt to anyone and therefore, there debts also have been paid? Nice, but not quite the reality of Jesus' situation.

In closing, I'll just say what *I* got out of studying (and trying to walk) his example:

We all have our own cross to bear. No man can pick up yours for you. Jesus was just one (of many) that was sent to act as a light-giving sun/son to show the way. The Qur'an says he was sent "as a sign." When you see a sign on the highway, do you stop at the sign saying, "we've made it to our destination" or do you turn on your blinker to go left/right or wherever the sign is directing you to go???


>I can't wait to here how
>Islam thinks about this.

And there you have it.

*************************************************************
"When the Black Man of North America makes up his mind to be that which Allah has created him to be, which is a replica of Himself, then and only then can he call the universe into order."

-Me.

  

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AZ
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12930 posts
Wed Jun-13-01 09:34 AM

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205. "the Crescent and Star"
In response to Reply # 197


          

>Also, could you
>>let me know what the
>>moon and the "*" symbol
>>I see mean to the
>>muslim religion?

The crescent and star was the symbol of the Ottoman Empire. Since this was the ruling Islamic civilization for such a long time, it's symbol came to represent Islam in general (and also today it is found on flags of many predominantly Muslim countries around the world). However, it is not really an Islamic symbol since it has no basis in the Qur'an or the Sunnah.

  

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mthompkins

Wed Jun-13-01 11:08 AM

  
211. "RE: To Mr. Thompkins...From V."
In response to Reply # 197


          

According to my current studies, "Allah", is derived from the root word "Ilu", found in the dialect of the Semites meaning

'one God'. To quote from the book I mentioned a few posts ago, the writer says "Ilu", whose name was later modified in their

dialects into 'Yahweh', 'Jahweh', 'Jehova', and 'Elohim' with the Hebrews and 'Allat', 'Allah', and 'Ilah' with the Arabs.

The origin of all these, however, is 'Ilu'.

-->> Thanks for that info. So the word Allah is arabic for One God. Check this out the word Elohim, which you used to mean

one God, it is actually plural meaning gods. Not in the since of more than One God but One God with many aspects to Himself.

You can look up the word Elohim in hebrew to see what I mean.

Also in the book of Genesis 1:26, God(Elohim) said let US make man into OUR image and likeness.

Why did this One God say let us and our? Don't get me wrong, I believe in One God. But I believe this One God, His Word, and

His Spirit are One. The bible says in John 1, that God's Word is God. And we know God and His spirit are one. However, you

have to ask yourself in the book of Genesis why God seperates Himself from His own Spirit and His word(throughout the old

testament) as if they are important facts as to what makes God, God.



Quick question. How does one gain "understanding" but not "agreement" whereas this is concerned?


Oh this is easy. If a man is hungry and he steals some food to eat. I can understand his motivation, however I do not agree

with stealing. Since I use to fornicate, I can understand why people fornicate, because it feels good. But I disagree with

fornication because I know that it is not of God.

The bible says in Hebrews 4 that Jesus understands the sins of man yet He Himself knew no sin. So what I am saying is this. I

understand human weakness because being human, I can relate to it. However, there are some weaknesses I don't understand

because I can't relate. But I disagree with them because they are not of God. And since I am of God, and He has given me His

nature, I disagree with sin because I now know the consequences of sin. This is hard to explain to you since you are not a

believer. So I have to explain the best way I can and pray that the God's spirit will give you understanding like He gave it

to me. Because I can understand human weakness based off an old understanding of being in sin myself. But now my disagreement

with sin comes from a new understanding. And although I have this new understanding, I haven't forgotten my old way of

thinking and understanding.



Adam was
>created perfect. He was right
>with God yet He did
>absolutely nothing to earn it.
>He had no rules to
>follow, no rituals to commit
>to.

Hold it right there. As I mention a few posts ago, the ONLY *rule* that divides us (believers from disbelievers) is the 'OBEY

GOD RULE'.

-->> Exactly. Until Adam disobeyed God, He was righteous. Because he was made that way. As long as he did not touch that

tree, he obeyed God. He wasn't disobedient until he touched the tree. Like the law of speeding. If I am at rest and the speed

limit is 55mph. And I begin to accelerate, as long as I am going less than 55mph, I am obedient to the law. But once I exceed

the speed limit, I have now broken the law. So until Adam touched the tree, he was obedient and right with God.

>Now I know you don't believe
>this, but because we are
>all the seed of Adam,
>no human being born of
>a mother and father could
>be perfect, no one. Not
>Muhammad, not Buddha, no one.

Now, let's examine this statement for a moment. Since you mention Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and Buddah, why was Jesus not

mentioned here? You said 'no one', right? More on this later.

Excuse me, I should have clarified myself. I meant human mother and human father. Because no one from Adam could be born

perfect. But Jesus had a earthly mother and Heavenly Father who is God. Because his Father is God, He was born perfect. But

since he had a earthly mother, He was born with the option to sin, but not the desire too like all other humans are.

>You could do all the
>good works you could and
>you would still make a
>mistake and come short of
>God. And coming short of
>God won't suffice. Because no
>matter how many good works
>you did, you would all
>be judged for what Adam
>did. Which seems unfair.

And this, Mr. Thompkins, would make Allah unjust. Wouldn't you agree?

Absolutletly, only if He didn't make a way out of this trap. Go back to Genesis at the fall. Read Genesis 3:15 where God said

he would enmity between her(Eve) seed and satan's seed and that Eve's seed would bruise his(the serpent) head and he satan

would bruise his(the seed of the woman) heel. What was God doing here? He was making a plan of redeemption for man. Keep in

mind, the fall of Adam was not a surprise to God for God said after the fall, "man is indeed flesh." So God had already made

provision for man. Think about it, by grouping all men under Adam worked out best. Because, since by one man, all men were

born condemned, then by one man, all men could be made righteous. But this one man, he had to be like Adam. He couldn't have

an earthly Father. His birth had to be supernatural. Adam and Jesus had the same Father as far as their fleshly bodies were

concerned in that they were both human and capable of doing everything that humans do. So God is just, because He could have

left us like we were. He didn't have to redeem us. He didn't redeem satan, a fallen angel. He didn't have to redeem us. He's

God, and whatever He decides is just. Even if He decided not to redeem mankind, He would have been just. For who is higher

than Him to judge whether or not His decisions are Just. But to be the loving God that He says He is, then you're right. He

had to make a second chance for man to get back to where He was created to be, in right standing with God. But how could God

do this. How could a spiritual being, like man, be restored to being right with God. First of all, there had to be a way to

pay for his sin. Then there had to be a way to continually cleanse him of his sin. Then there had to be a way he could

receive a new body that was perfect like Adam's body before Adam sinned.

So
>God impregnated a woman. He
>took her egg and made
>her egg one with His
>word. This was prophesized in
>the old testament.(Let me know
>if you want the scriptures).
>And so God's word became
>flesh. And when God's word
>became flesh, this fleshly version
>of God was called His
>Son.

Unfortunately, this is where we part ways in understanding of the scripture. That is what we call a "spooky" (no offense)

understanding of the Word. If you had a young daughter and she came home pregnant sayin' "it was the 'holy ghost' who did it,

daddy", you would'nt be lookin' for a spirit who entered your daughter, would you? You'd be lookin' for a man. A MAN. Jesus

is called throughout the scripture the "son of MAN" not "son of SPIRIT." In addition, the "son" factor has always been a

point of contention w/ Muslims and Christians. The Holy Qur'an is very clear on this point when it states "He begetteth not,

nor is He begotten." I'd elaborate further, but I'll continue for space and time sake.

-->>Yeah, you are right. If my daughter got pregnant, then I would be looking for man. Because in my limited human

understanding, I know that a woman can only get pregnant by natural means. And Joseph, the fiancee of Mary also thought the

same thing and intended on divorcing Mary because he thought she was lying. But God sent an angel to Joseph to explain to

Joseph that this was the fullfillment of the prophecy He spoke of in the old testament, in the book of the prophets. That in

Isaiah 11:1-5, the bible says that there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of His

roots: And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon(or up on) Him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of

counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge, and of the fear of the Lord: And shall make him of quick understanding in the

fear of the Lord....."

The bible is talking about a man here, born out of Jesse, the father of king David who is from the jewish tribe of Judah.

In Isaiah 9:6-8, the bible says "For unto us a child is born and a son is given, and the government shall rest upon His

shoulder: and his name shall be called wonderful counselor, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace. Of

the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it,

and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform

this."

Who is this child that was prophesized by a Jewish prophet long before Jesus was born on earth. Look what Isaiah says, He

says that this person is an earthly God yet He shall be called Mighty God. He again mentioned that this person was from the

throne of King David who was from the tribe of Judah. (Please keep this in mind as we go forward)

In Isaiah again in chapter 7, verses 13-14, for it says "......hear ye now, O house of David (tribe of Judah), Is it a small

thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also? Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin

shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Again, another reference to the tribe of Judah. A mention of a virgin given birth to man who's name is called Immanuel which

means in the Hebrew "God is with us."


So I am saying all this to say, that God promised that a descendant of david would sit on the throne forever. How could a

king sit upon a throne forever unless He was God. But now, how could God being the creator be a descendant of His own

creation? Unless He planned on becoming one with man through a virgin.

Now let us address my daughter getting pregnant and claiming to be impregnated by the Spirit of God. I know she is a lie

because what she just said doesn't line up with prophecy. First of