i think yes. human beings are able to experience duality and god cannot. if god was able to experience duality, god wouldn't be god. god would be human. how can god be in any way related to duality, or the nature of evil, if god is the cure to evil. evil cannot cure evil. so god cannot be evil. if we are able to experience duality, and god is not. why not? or why?

peace.


~
This is the life I chose, or rather the life that chose me
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I fade to black
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I f

How does that make us more powerful than God, the one who controls everything? Because we can experience something he can't? I'm assuming all the things God can experience that we can't, means nothing. no? Please explain.

***************************************
"Science" and Religion are the two most dangerous weapons of ideology. See holocaust.

Why do "scientists" constantly produce statistics based on "race", a social construct?

>How does that make us more powerful than God, the one who
>controls everything? Because we can experience something he
>can't? I'm assuming all the things God can experience that we
>can't, means nothing. no? Please explain.

Well. God may experience a lot, but he cannot experience evil, according to the logic i laid out. if he cannot experience evil, therefore, he could possibly concieve a tool that can. plato said human beings are political animals, such as social scientists and thinkers. if we reflect god, as many believers suggest, than if we are thinkers and scientists, is god that too? it would seem that by experiencing duality, we are the means to an end. so in a sense, god is using human beings as a means (tool) to an end (?). what end? evil exists independent to good, and good independent to evil. such as negative to positive. so are human beings, the tool for the destruction of evil? christian mythology suggests that satan appeared in the world to destroy god's creation, which are human beings, and through that, destroy god. that suggests that there is a strong link between human beings and god. but, is it possible that god created human beings, to destroy evil? before evil tempts? peace.

~
This is the life I chose, or rather the life that chose me
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I fade to black
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I f

So basically your saying that because we are the key tool in destroying evil or good that this particular position places us above Satan and God(because we could be used as tools to destroy either). I'm inclined to think that maybe you could argue that the combined force of both the Negative or Positive and the key tool is greater than the negative or positive force alone. Humans alone are still clean slates waiting for influence like a rowboat in an ocean.

My theory: God is all and emcompasses the absolute "nadir" (if you choose to look at it that way) of existence, which is Evil(Satan), as well as the greatest good(Christ). God is absolute good, evil, and everything else that "exists". Every atom is apart of a system that is God. Thus God can experience duality because, the nature of God, both good and evil, is dualistic.

***************************************
"Science" and Religion are the two most dangerous weapons of ideology. See holocaust.

Why do "scientists" constantly produce statistics based on "race", a social construct?

>So basically your saying that because we are the key tool in
>destroying evil or good that this particular position places
>us above Satan and God(because we could be used as tools to
>destroy either). I'm inclined to think that maybe you could
>argue that the combined force of both the Negative or Positive
>and the key tool is greater than the negative or positive
>force alone.

I agree 100%. It may be difficult to incorporate and understand that living in total goodness, or what one may percieve as total goodness, may be damaging to soul/energy/body/mind/etc etc. I think, it's much more difficult to live a balanced and seemingly heavenly life if one is stationary and stedfast in their existence. I have met some that travel, both land and mental plane, investigate many ideas, and allow their personal ideal to evolve, and therefore, live in seeming and happy balance, not being restrained by "evil". However for some, and many times previously me too, and I'm sure in the future again, as one reaches a level of purity and goodness, it is difficult to maintain that state, in a world, that is distracting from peace. However, the detachment from purity and goodness, which any dual being has to face and accept, may be too difficult. We are in a state of flux/war, so it is easier to remain in a state of angst/anxiety than it is peace. If the program was PEACE, we would be peaceful.

Humans alone are still clean slates waiting for
>influence like a rowboat in an ocean.

I agree but, that depends on who is going to influence the flow. I don't think God will, so we are waiting and accepting a certain course for nothing if we continue to wait for that.

>
>My theory: God is all and emcompasses the absolute "nadir" (if
>you choose to look at it that way) of existence, which is
>Evil(Satan), as well as the greatest good(Christ). God is
>absolute good, evil, and everything else that "exists". Every
>atom is apart of a system that is God. Thus God can experience
>duality because, the nature of God, both good and evil, is
>dualistic.

I don't think nature is dualistic, as animals show us that some kill, and some die, in order to maintain the life cycle. Human beings kill in order to satisfy greed. I think there is a difference, and I think the actual term 'dualistic' should be applied with more care. We cannot simply sweep everything into a nutshell and call it Nature, or 'God' because 'Nature', and 'God' are two very different things. God is a social construct, which constructs norms, beliefs, value's. And Nature, is an eco construct, which constructs natural process and the motion of blood in the body. Nature is universal, and culture (norms, beliefs, value's) is subjective. Meaning, nature is universal as a man in an igloo, will investigate, and construct his habitat, just as a man in china will, however, the difference in that construction, is influenced by SOCIAL inclination, or subjective norms, beliefs, and values. In that sense, God is a subjective being, that is portrayed as an Objective Omnipotent being, that encompasses all which I think is incorrect. Perhaps, Nature encompasses God, and God, just as us is contained by something, truly beyond comprehension and actually omnipotent. God is subjective, because God affects all levels of human life and society, however, it does not govern Animals, as by our standards, animals are not even allowed to go enter the same heaven. Clearly, even in our own social construct, we have ironically proven that Nature and God are two different things, and perhaps all that I just said, is the natural process that can be found between the two, a natural relationship, that neither GOD, nor Nature understands. Such as a positive charge, and a negative charge. However, we are human beings, and thus we are on a plane, that is the see saw between the two. I think if we continue to wait for nature or god, we will never attain peace, or the balance between duality.

peace.
>
>


~
This is the life I chose, or rather the life that chose me
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I fade to black
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I f

>
>I agree but, that depends on who is going to influence the
>flow. I don't think God will, so we are waiting and accepting
>a certain course for nothing if we continue to wait for that.







>>My theory: God is all and emcompasses the absolute "nadir"
>(if
>>you choose to look at it that way) of existence, which is
>>Evil(Satan), as well as the greatest good(Christ). God is
>>absolute good, evil, and everything else that "exists".
>Every
>>atom is apart of a system that is God. Thus God can
>experience
>>duality because, the nature of God, both good and evil, is
>>dualistic.
>
>I don't think nature is dualistic, as animals show us that
>some kill, and some die, in order to maintain the life cycle.
>Human beings kill in order to satisfy greed.
I think there is
>a difference, and I think the actual term 'dualistic' should
>be applied with more care.


When I said nature I meant the texture of existence.
The reason I settled on dualism is because everything is a positive or negative of some sort on some level to someone or something. As a side note I believe we're all motivated by survival including the Socrates' of our race(human race). Detriments are evil. Assists are good. Like electrons, either + or -.


We cannot simply sweep everything
>into a nutshell and call it Nature, or 'God' because 'Nature',
>and 'God' are two very different things. God is a social
>construct, which constructs norms, beliefs, value's. And
>Nature, is an eco construct, which constructs natural process
>and the motion of blood in the body. Nature is universal,
>culture (norms, beliefs, value's) is subjective. Meaning,
>nature is universal as a man in an igloo, will investigate,
>and construct his habitat, just as a man in china will,
>however, the difference in that construction, is influenced by
>SOCIAL inclination, or subjective norms, beliefs, and values.
>In that sense, God is a subjective being, that is portrayed as
>an Objective Omnipotent being, that encompasses all which I
>think is incorrect. Perhaps, Nature encompasses God, and God,
>just as us is contained by something, truly beyond
>comprehension and actually omnipotent. God is subjective,
>because God affects all levels of human life and society,
>however, it does not govern Animals, as by our standards,
>animals are not even allowed to go enter the same heaven.
>Clearly, even in our own social construct, we have ironically
>proven that Nature and God are two different things, and
>perhaps all that I just said, is the natural process that can
>be found between the two, a natural relationship, that neither
>GOD, nor Nature understands. Such as a positive charge, and a
>negative charge. However, we are human beings, and thus we are
>on a plane, that is the see saw between the two. I think if we
>continue to wait for nature or god, we will never attain
>peace, or the balance between duality.


>
>peace.

Some would say God is all means everything, including the smallest
building block of existence, whatever that might be. The God you're refering to as a social construct is different cultures' personifications of forces that occur in "nature". What you're referring to as nature, is what I'm referring to as God. When I think God I'm really not thinking of a superior being as much as everything that possibly is. The seemingly infinite number of parts that make up everything that is, including the unfathomable, is related in some way like the individual parts of an organism. That's an ultimate constant. All that is. God encompasses all that is including our concept of nature, even if the concept is a perfect duplicate of that which contains it. In your final statement, it almost seems as if you're trying to conclude that true power for humans lies in embracing the world of the material. Is this an accurate assessment?

>>

***************************************
"Science" and Religion are the two most dangerous weapons of ideology. See holocaust.

Why do "scientists" constantly produce statistics based on "race", a social construct?

>>
>>I agree but, that depends on who is going to influence the
>>flow. I don't think God will, so we are waiting and
>accepting
>>a certain course for nothing if we continue to wait for
>that.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>>My theory: God is all and emcompasses the absolute "nadir"
>>(if
>>>you choose to look at it that way) of existence, which is
>>>Evil(Satan), as well as the greatest good(Christ). God is
>>>absolute good, evil, and everything else that "exists".
>>Every
>>>atom is apart of a system that is God. Thus God can
>>experience
>>>duality because, the nature of God, both good and evil, is
>>>dualistic.
>>
>>I don't think nature is dualistic, as animals show us that
>>some kill, and some die, in order to maintain the life
>cycle.
>>Human beings kill in order to satisfy greed.
>I think there is
>>a difference, and I think the actual term 'dualistic' should
>>be applied with more care.
>
>
>When I said nature I meant the texture of existence.
>The reason I settled on dualism is because everything is a
>positive or negative of some sort on some level to someone or
>something. As a side note I believe we're all motivated by
>survival including the Socrates' of our race(human race).
>Detriments are evil. Assists are good. Like electrons, either
>+ or -.

I see. So, in your mind you also see that dual nature is stronger than single nature? Perhaps, I'm misreading, but it seems that survival has programmed animals with a dual nature as well. Perhaps animals, as we think of and percieve them, are truly 'metaphors' for dual true nature. Killing only when necessary to survive, and not just flesh, but anything. Those are all pipe dreams though, and will not be possible in our time unless.... ....

>
>
> We cannot simply sweep everything
>>into a nutshell and call it Nature, or 'God' because
>'Nature',
>>and 'God' are two very different things. God is a social
>>construct, which constructs norms, beliefs, value's. And
>>Nature, is an eco construct, which constructs natural
>process
>>and the motion of blood in the body. Nature is universal,
>>culture (norms, beliefs, value's) is subjective. Meaning,
>>nature is universal as a man in an igloo, will investigate,
>>and construct his habitat, just as a man in china will,
>>however, the difference in that construction, is influenced
>by
>>SOCIAL inclination, or subjective norms, beliefs, and
>values.
>>In that sense, God is a subjective being, that is portrayed
>as
>>an Objective Omnipotent being, that encompasses all which I
>>think is incorrect. Perhaps, Nature encompasses God, and
>God,
>>just as us is contained by something, truly beyond
>>comprehension and actually omnipotent. God is subjective,
>>because God affects all levels of human life and society,
>>however, it does not govern Animals, as by our standards,
>>animals are not even allowed to go enter the same heaven.
>>Clearly, even in our own social construct, we have
>ironically
>>proven that Nature and God are two different things, and
>>perhaps all that I just said, is the natural process that
>can
>>be found between the two, a natural relationship, that
>neither
>>GOD, nor Nature understands. Such as a positive charge, and
>a
>>negative charge. However, we are human beings, and thus we
>are
>>on a plane, that is the see saw between the two. I think if
>we
>>continue to wait for nature or god, we will never attain
>>peace, or the balance between duality.
>
>
>>
>>peace.
>
>Some would say God is all means everything, including the
>smallest
>building block of existence, whatever that might be. The God
>you're refering to as a social construct is different
>cultures' personifications of forces that occur in "nature".
>What you're referring to as nature, is what I'm referring to
>as God. When I think God I'm really not thinking of a superior
>being as much as everything that possibly is. The seemingly
>infinite number of parts that make up everything that is,
>including the unfathomable, is related in some way like the
>individual parts of an organism. That's an ultimate constant.
>All that is. God encompasses all that is including our concept
>of nature, even if the concept is a perfect duplicate of that
>which contains it. In your final statement, it almost seems as
>if you're trying to conclude that true power for humans lies
>in embracing the world of the material. Is this an accurate
>assessment?

That's very interesting. I think I agree with you in your definition of god, also, I think that god is not any weaker than human beings are, and human beings are not any weaker than god, but both are more powerful then the other. a dual nature of strength that makes the other weaker, yet both function in a relationship. in a metaphor, god needs human beings, just as much as human beings need god. and as we may be a tool of discovery on this level of existence, god, or, all that is, functions in a way, understanding the outcome of any possible event that takes place here. but, what is lacking, is the experience, and human beings experience on a physical plane. in a sense, yes, i think that human beings must embrace the world of the material, and we already are doing that...some intoxicate themselves with their strength and leadership quality, losing sight of true ideals as the potential of that strength is unravelled, ultimatley, we have choice, and it seems choice is war (insert every theory known to man related to social, psychological, spiritual on why), and the blood bath's that follow. that can make anyone reject the material, as it seems the material is total destruction. The tools for peace and such exist, they are just not being used. So, how can we expect god to put them in motion? They are our tools. God already put his/her tool in motion. Peace.

>
>>>


~
This is the life I chose, or rather the life that chose me
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I fade to black
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I f

To think that god doesn't experience evil is absurd. Hence the reason god states in genesis, they have become like us, they know good and evil. The only way god can truly know what adam and eve knew is due to the fact that he also had to know it the difference between good and evil. The experience is extended to all things. It is when the choice kicks in as to whether the individual chooses to do right or wrong.

Can God microwave a burrito so hot that even He can't eat it?

okay, break it apart if you want to. im just curious to your opinion. peace.
~
This is the life I chose, or rather the life that chose me
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I fade to black
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I f

I'm just playin. Carry on.

_________________________

>
>Can God microwave a burrito so hot that even He can't eat it?
>

yes, but he first has to limit his own capacity for eating hot foods.

***I'm a Child of Production***

well, i believe that human beings created god out of need. we needed someone to blame for our inadequacies and god became the easy crutch. (i know.. this sounds cartesian. but..) god is the explanation for why we are what we are. and for why the earth and everything in it is ours to exploit. out of the idea of a benevolent creator was born the idea of a malevolent being =evil. to whom we can blame for temptations or for our failings. but its all to justify the things we do. so that we are flawed human beings in the first place, we cant help it, we are born with innate flaws in the first place. blame..... (insert your favourite female diety/persona/mythfigure, etc.)

Even salvation becomes a promise of a change, we cease to become human, instead we are flawless godlike creatures (again the refusal to accept humanity as is). we get to leave this earth and go somewhere else. god becomes a promise of something better..

so yeah, i think human beings are more powerful than god. not out of anything we do. but because god is our creation/idea

and im basing this, of course on the five major religions. i dont know much about indigenous religious thought. and most of these ideas stem from reading books like ishmael, descartes the method, the bible etc. (gotta give credit where credit is due),

and my religious ed. instructor who never quite explained just how xtianity benefitted africa and africans..

>i think yes. human beings are able to experience duality and
>god cannot. if god was able to experience duality, god
>wouldn't be god. god would be human. how can god be in any way
>related to duality, or the nature of evil, if god is the cure
>to evil. evil cannot cure evil. so god cannot be evil. if we
>are able to experience duality, and god is not. why not? or
>why?
>
>peace.
>
>
>~
>This is the life I chose, or rather the life that chose me
>If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
>Maybe you'll love me when I fade to black
>If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
>Maybe you'll love me when I f

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

especially on your explanation of why humans created god

***************************************

www.twitter.com/MsKianga
http://nativebeadwork.blogspot.com/
'I can't stand Tim McCarver. He has a penchant for making blindingly obvious statements in a self-congratulatory tone' Kyle Lohse

i think the same shit
always have

__________________
boys to the yard

peace

..............

_______________________
"Arm Leg Leg Arm Hate." c/o desus
_______________________
Divine Ruler
http://www.facebook.com/divineruler
__gigs__
__stuff__

lol

"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

for evil must have been there.

A human being is capable of evil. peace.
~
This is the life I chose, or rather the life that chose me
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I fade to black
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I f

So everything Jesus experienced , God experienced.

I am and never will be a Christian but I've spoken with many christians and they DO NOT whatsoever believe that Jesus IS God. And furthermore they'd call me a damnation for telling them that WE created God and they'd call you a "So-called" christian for believing JC IS God. Go figure.


The House ALWAYS Wins.

scriptures:

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

the glory as of the only begotten of
>the Father,) full of grace and truth."

there is a distinction between jesus and his father here. "only begotten of the father",
also, dind't jesus say, "forgive them father, for they know not what they do?"...why would god speak to himself while dying? jesus died, so, did god die?

peace.


~
This is the life I chose, or rather the life that chose me
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I fade to black
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I f

> the glory as of the only begotten of
>>the Father,) full of grace and truth."
>
>there is a distinction between jesus and his father here.
>"only begotten of the father",

A distinction between God the Son and God the Father doesn't equate to a distinction between Jesus and God.

the "ONLY" *begotten* of the "FATHER",

definition of begotten:
1 : to procreate as the father : SIRE
2 : to produce especially as an effect or outgrowth


also, what about the other questions I asked, about Jesus and what he said on the cross to God.

peace.

~
This is the life I chose, or rather the life that chose me
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I fade to black
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I f

Entities in the Trinity. You have nothing stating that Jesus isn't part of that Trinity; on the contrary , you have a verse...in the very same chapter...stating that "the Word was God" and then later on the same chapter states that the Word was made flesh, referring to Jesus. Therefore, Jesus is God in the flesh.

Did God die when Jesus died? I would have to say no. Jesus was God in the flesh. When Jesus died, what died was his flesh, not God. A spirit can't die.

When God put on flesh, he experienced everything Jesus went though. Whether or not God can be good/evil is made irrevelent, becuase He experinced it through Jesus' earthly body.

Can't God just be?

What if there is no true good force?What if there was a Satan,but he doessn't have a good rival?
__________________________________________________________

profiles.myspace.com/users/2267173



Classic,just classic.


I went to start my car today, and as soon as I put the key in, it said "you have been sniped by Bearfield"-RJCC

so are ideas stonger than humans?

"This isnt an argument, you are just contradicting everything Im saying"

"No Im not"
******************
"Dont open your mind too much or your brain will fall out"

******************************

Its 2005, where's my hoverboard and jetpack?

ah.. no because ideas still stem from humans. they are still, 'our invention'. unless some ideas exist independently of the people that articulate them (im yet to see this)

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

i dig.

***I'm a Child of Production***

why do you assume that the ability to experience duality makes us stronger than god?

construct and create a human body-------the most complex Element, on Earth...I'm sticking with God as "Supremely-UNequaled"

____ _____ _____

*--> www.soundclick.com/blaXXX <--*

*~* Go ahead! EXPERIENCE the latest non-Profit joint!*~*

____ _____ _____

blaXXX' breviaries: 2005---And we coulda saved more...if they ONLY KNEW they were Slaves
____

_______________________
"Arm Leg Leg Arm Hate." c/o desus
_______________________
Divine Ruler
http://www.facebook.com/divineruler
__gigs__
__stuff__

because last time I checked; NO MAN WALKING EARTH can 'create and construct' a human body...

I always thought that sex gives us the ability to "conceive one" that God creates over a 9-month period-----but------maybe I'm missing something...please clue me in

____ _____ _____

*--> www.soundclick.com/blaXXX <--*

*~* Go ahead! EXPERIENCE the latest non-Profit joint!*~*

____ _____ _____

blaXXX' breviaries: 2005---And we coulda saved more...if they ONLY KNEW they were Slaves
____

THE BLACK MAN IS GOD

_______________________
"Arm Leg Leg Arm Hate." c/o desus
_______________________
Divine Ruler
http://www.facebook.com/divineruler
__gigs__
__stuff__

thanks for that info

____ _____ _____

*--> www.soundclick.com/blaXXX <--*

*~* Go ahead! EXPERIENCE the latest non-Profit joint!*~*

____ _____ _____

blaXXX' breviaries: 2005---And we coulda saved more...if they ONLY KNEW they were Slaves
____

I already know that you believe that God created man. But, let's just say that perhaps God created organization. And when he made the first organism, he implanted in that organism the ability to ORGANIZE along with and at the same time multiplication. So, as that organism ORGANIZES he becomes more complex, and his multiplication becomes more complex. That's an explanation of how/why man (re) creates himself.

Now, what if I told you that there is no "God". Not even in the form of a Black Man OR a White Man.


The House ALWAYS Wins.

and thats CERTAINLY not recreation of the human species.

Consider the term "born-again" when folk, become christians. You are STILL the same being, none of that can change about anyone----thus saith The Lord God-----but everything about your reasoning, cognizance, conduct and daily Life DO change-----i.e...like in your example of recreation.

____ _____ _____

*--> www.soundclick.com/blaXXX <--*

*~* Go ahead! EXPERIENCE the latest non-Profit joint!*~*

____ _____ _____

blaXXX' breviaries: 2005---And we coulda saved more...if they ONLY KNEW they were Slaves
____

>i think yes. human beings are able to experience duality and
>god cannot.

God is not human and you can thank The Great Chain of Being for confusing folks. All animals can experience what you call "duality" because this is part of the same universal flow that makes the rest of nature change. This is the reason why animals can sense fear or trust/compassion. It the sense of connection we feel with nature...well some of us feel it.

>how can god be in any way
>related to duality, or the nature of evil, if god is the cure
>to evil. evil cannot cure evil. so god cannot be evil. if we
>are able to experience duality, and god is not. why not? or
>why?

God is nature and transcends this world (the only thing we think we know). What we experience is a drop in the bucket as far as what is happening in the universe, thus, our drive to travel the cosmos, to clone, to control the environment. We want to be what we don't even understand. We are forever stuck with our limitations, trying to place God in our own framework. It'll never work...we can only destroy ourselves. Duality (and free will) gives us a choice.

"In the Age of Perfect Virtue, men lived among the animals and birds as members of one large family. There were no distinctions between "superior" and "inferior" to separate one man or species from another. All retained their natural Virtue and lived in a state of pure simplicity...

In the Age of Perfect Virtue, wisdom and ability were not singled out as extraordinary. The wise were seen merely as higher branches on humanity's tree, growing a little closer to the sun (Great Chain). People behaved correctly without knowing that to be Righteous and Propriety....

They did not concern themselves with Justice, as there was no injustice. Living in harmony with themselves, each other, and the world, their actions left no trace and so we have no physical evidence of their existence." - Benjamin Hoff

This Age of Perfect Virtue is also the "Garden of Eden" in the Bible. It is in Asian texts, as well. How is it that we base our humanity on this story but have no evidence of it? It gives us something to attain or strive for. This is one side of who we are. The other becomes more and more manipulative and violent towards the earth and more socially and spiritually limited. Life is becoming more miserable and we need something else to balance this. Thus, the need to attain a state of Perfect Virtue. This who thing or process is part of a Divine, universal flow-- all of it. The more separate we become the more unbalanced and destructive.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

>>i think yes. human beings are able to experience duality
>and
>>god cannot.
>
>God is not human and you can thank The Great Chain of Being
>for confusing folks. All animals can experience what you call
>"duality" because this is part of the same universal flow that
>makes the rest of nature change. This is the reason why
>animals can sense fear or trust/compassion. It the sense of
>connection we feel with nature...well some of us feel it.

well, i don't think the experience of fear or trust/compassion is strictly associated with duality. as far as duality is concerned, i am speaking about good & evil. i am not sure if animals are capable of evil. i think animals are more in tune with the organism of earth. so are we, but we are not identical to earth or animals. we function on planes outside of "nature", as in tree's and so on. yet, we do have a nature. can you classify our nature?

>
>>how can god be in any way
>>related to duality, or the nature of evil, if god is the
>cure
>>to evil. evil cannot cure evil. so god cannot be evil. if we
>>are able to experience duality, and god is not. why not? or
>>why?
>
>God is nature and transcends this world (the only thing we
>think we know). What we experience is a drop in the bucket as
>far as what is happening in the universe, thus, our drive to
>travel the cosmos, to clone, to control the environment. We
>want to be what we don't even understand. We are forever
>stuck with our limitations, trying to place God in our own
>framework. It'll never work...we can only destroy ourselves.
>Duality (and free will) gives us a choice.

Whether it will work or not. It's the natural course that humans took. This is all a natural course, unless we are apart from nature.

>
>"In the Age of Perfect Virtue, men lived among the animals and
>birds as members of one large family. There were no
>distinctions between "superior" and "inferior" to separate one
>man or species from another. All retained their natural
>Virtue and lived in a state of pure simplicity...

>
>In the Age of Perfect Virtue, wisdom and ability were not
>singled out as extraordinary. The wise were seen merely as
>higher branches on humanity's tree, growing a little closer to
>the sun (Great Chain). People behaved correctly without
>knowing that to be Righteous and Propriety....
>
>They did not concern themselves with Justice, as there was no
>injustice. Living in harmony with themselves, each other, and
>the world, their actions left no trace and so we have no
>physical evidence of their existence." - Benjamin Hoff
>
>This Age of Perfect Virtue is also the "Garden of Eden" in the
>Bible. It is in Asian texts, as well. How is it that we base
>our humanity on this story but have no evidence of it? It
>gives us something to attain or strive for. This is one side
>of who we are. The other becomes more and more manipulative
>and violent towards the earth and more socially and
>spiritually limited. Life is becoming more miserable and we
>need something else to balance this. Thus, the need to attain
>a state of Perfect Virtue. This who thing or process is part
>of a Divine, universal flow-- all of it. The more separate we
>become the more unbalanced and destructive.

Well, I see a lot of logic in that. Apart from the vision, which is art, and only a narrow scope into what it promised. When I read these arguments, they rarely provide any insight or direction to how it is attained. Also, it seems we are attempting to "return" to. Human beings have evolved, and with them their standard of living, technology, (faith), etc. How do we return into a simplistic way of life? I'm sure it is possible, but how long would it take, and what would the consequence be.

peace.

~
This is the life I chose, or rather the life that chose me
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I fade to black
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I f

>well, i don't think the experience of fear or trust/compassion
>is strictly associated with duality. as far as duality is
>concerned

Duality is good/evil, love/hate, trust/fear, etc. and nature governs all that and everything in between. I use nature and universe interchangeably. It goes beyond earth. We are limited in our understanding of this and that is why people meditate or pray. We want to feel that connection or communicate with what we cannot see, what is beyond the physical. This is where duality comes from. All living things are a part of that.

> we do have a nature.
>can you classify our nature?

No and I do not care or have a need to classify it. That's what faith is. I have seen men (and women) mess things up as they attempt to label or classify nature. They look for logic or evidence because it's what they can understand in their world. Nature is so much more than that.

>Whether it will work or not. It's the natural course that
>humans took. This is all a natural course, unless we are apart
>from nature.

We choose whether to live in harmony with nature or not. Regardless, we have to deal with the consequences of these choices. The universe will continue to flow.

>Well, I see a lot of logic in that. Apart from the vision,
>which is art, and only a narrow scope into what it promised.
>When I read these arguments, they rarely provide any insight
>or direction to how it is attained.

When I was a kid I was fortunate enough to spend a lot of time with nature. I used to go out and sit, butterflies would cover my arms, ants would sting my legs, I would step on some of the ants...this awareness of harmony in nature is something I bring with me. It's my core. There is no how.

>Human beings have evolved, and with
>them their standard of living, technology, (faith), etc. How
>do we return into a simplistic way of life?

I have no problem with technology except for when it destroys living things. We use everything to destroy life, from the atom to pollution. Technology is just a tool and we have not evolved all that much. We are edging closer to destruction. Evolution implies progress or growth.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

>>well, i don't think the experience of fear or
>trust/compassion
>>is strictly associated with duality. as far as duality is
>>concerned
>
>Duality is good/evil, love/hate, trust/fear, etc.

trust/fear?
i don't agree here. trust/mistrust. ?/fear. i don't what i would oppose to fear, maybe bravery? the concept of fear is open to subjective logic i think.

and nature
>governs all that and everything in between. I use nature and
>universe interchangeably. It goes beyond earth. We are
>limited in our understanding of this

We are limited in it's understanding, yet you pose an argument, based on nature as the core strength and order of government. Is that logical? Even though I agree with you about nature, as natural order. I do think, that we as human beings, have the potential and power to, use nature to our advantage if we would choose to. So, perhaps it's more than just a governing order, but the buildingblocks to whatever we may create. To, whatever we can imagine, from the impossible, to the possible. I think nature is ours to use.

and that is why people
>meditate or pray.

I don't see how prayer or meditation has anything to do with nature. For some, yes. For most, I don't think so. People praying for nicer cars or, whatever they need. I don't know if that is equated with nature, or as a product of nature.

We want to feel that connection or
>communicate with what we cannot see, what is beyond the
>physical.

There is much we cannot see that we think we see, and it's right before our eyes. Sounds to me, like wanting to connect with something beyond the physical, is like wanting to escape the body, which some believe occurs during death, or, out of body experiences. I don't doubt it's possible, but, we are here, as physical beings, in a physical world.

This is where duality comes from. All living
>things are a part of that.

Duality comes from where? Can you show me how duality and the connection and communication with nature are related? I guess you need to define duality too. I hope I don't sound hostile, you always challenge and I dig that, so I apologize for any type of tone that may be offensive.

>
>> we do have a nature.
>>can you classify our nature?
>
>No and I do not care or have a need to classify it. That's
>what faith is. I have seen men (and women) mess things up as
>they attempt to label or classify nature. They look for logic
>or evidence because it's what they can understand in their
>world. Nature is so much more than that.
>

But, we have a nature! I don't understand how it is possible to ignore our own nature, and focus on a nature that you have little knowledge of. Are you saying, that you have faith in human beings, but, that there is more to us, that is in nature, that we cannot see?

>>Whether it will work or not. It's the natural course that
>>humans took. This is all a natural course, unless we are
>apart
>>from nature.
>
>We choose whether to live in harmony with nature or not.
>Regardless, we have to deal with the consequences of these
>choices. The universe will continue to flow.

If nature is the governing order. It is impossible to live without it. If it is the construction of us, nature is simply, not ours to escape. Living in harmony, does not mean, that we are to be peaceful. Living in harmony, is to do as nature directs. And, I believe that we are on a path that is natural. Even animals live and die, as a result of, killing eachother.

>
>>Well, I see a lot of logic in that. Apart from the vision,
>>which is art, and only a narrow scope into what it promised.
>>When I read these arguments, they rarely provide any insight
>>or direction to how it is attained.
>
>When I was a kid I was fortunate enough to spend a lot of time
>with nature. I used to go out and sit, butterflies would
>cover my arms, ants would sting my legs, I would step on some
>of the ants...this awareness of harmony in nature is something
>I bring with me. It's my core. There is no how.

That I agree with. It is something that you can just, be with. To be with it, takes no effort. As far as I learned from Budhist philosophy.

>
>>Human beings have evolved, and with
>>them their standard of living, technology, (faith), etc. How
>>do we return into a simplistic way of life?
>
>I have no problem with technology except for when it destroys
>living things. We use everything to destroy life, from the
>atom to pollution. Technology is just a tool and we have not
>evolved all that much. We are edging closer to destruction.
>Evolution implies progress or growth.

Yes, the principles we have learned to devise destruction technology, can be used to create positive technology. The tools are here already, we just need to use them. Peace.


~
This is the life I chose, or rather the life that chose me
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I fade to black
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I f

>>Duality is good/evil, love/hate, trust/fear, etc.
>
>trust/fear?
>i don't agree here. trust/mistrust. ?/fear. i don't what i
>would oppose to fear, maybe bravery? the concept of fear is
>open to subjective logic i think.

Perhaps...but I found a definition that relates to this discussion:

"(Fear is) the emotion of the ego, contrasted with love, the emotion given us by God; originates in the expected punishment for our sins, which our guilt demands; the resulting terror over what we believe we deserve leads us -- through the dynamics of denial and projection -- to defend ourselves by attacking others, which merely reinforces our sense of vulnerability and fear, establishing a vicious circle of fear and defense." - www.facim.org/acim/glossary.htm

In "The Path To Love" by Chopra (a good book BTW), this idea is expanded on. In this book ego-based love comes from fear while true love comes from a connection to the Divine, as well as to self. Benjamin Hoff writes about "The Age of Virtue" and "The Age of Separation." The more humans became focused on ego, the more materialistic, violent, etc. and further from God and nature. All of these things exist because we choose (free will). We can choose ego/fear or love or both, depending on the circumstances. This does not make us better than or more powerful than God, because we are merely a tiny part of a larger picture.

>We are limited in it's understanding, yet you pose an
>argument, based on nature as the core strength and order of
>government. Is that logical? Even though I agree with you
>about nature, as natural order. I do think, that we as human
>beings, have the potential and power to, use nature to our
>advantage if we would choose to.

And we also have potential to destroy ourselves and our world, not the universe. The only nature we have power over is ourselves...and the living beings that are connected to us. Species can die every day...we are no different.

>I don't see how prayer or meditation has anything to do with
>nature. For some, yes. For most, I don't think so.

This goes back to ego/fear vs love, especially intention. You can project from a place of fear and bad things will happen or you can project from a place of love and experience miracles. It's happened to me. That unexplainable, quantum phenomena can't be explain with logic or science...or can it? I don't know.

>There is much we cannot see that we think we see, and it's
>right before our eyes. Sounds to me, like wanting to connect
>with something beyond the physical, is like wanting to escape
>the body, which some believe occurs during death, or, out of
>body experiences. I don't doubt it's possible, but, we are
>here, as physical beings, in a physical world.

The physical world would not be here if it wasn't for pure energy, spirit, the ether, or whatever you want to call it. This is the "flow" of the universe and it goes beyond the physical. For lack of a better example, it explains why millions of people get up every day and live their lives, not just for the physical/material aspect of life.

>Duality comes from where? Can you show me how duality and the
>connection and communication with nature are related? I guess
>you need to define duality too. I hope I don't sound hostile,
>you always challenge and I dig that, so I apologize for any
>type of tone that may be offensive.

Duality represents the higher (spiritual) and lower (mental) aspects of consciousness held by an individual. The ego or fear-based vs love...and everything in between.

>Are you saying, that you have faith in
>human beings, but, that there is more to us, that is in
>nature, that we cannot see?

Yes. Nature is both spiritual and mental.

>If nature is the governing order. It is impossible to live
>without it.

It is not possible to live outside of the universe.

>Living in harmony, does not mean, that we
>are to be peaceful. Living in harmony, is to do as nature
>directs. And, I believe that we are on a path that is natural.
>Even animals live and die, as a result of, killing eachother.

What is it the we do that animals don't?

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

sweet sweet jesus...

* Yng. Tkr. *

a.k.a
Triz Nathanial to you

vote for pedro

>i think yes. human beings are able to experience duality and
>god cannot.

Depends what religion you affiliate yourself with. In Christianity, Jesus was tempted as a human being, meaning God gave Himself the capacity to sin. Be careful when you say that God "cannot" do or experience something, because He is omnipotent.

if god was able to experience duality, god
>wouldn't be god. god would be human.

ehem... exactly. God is omnipotent, so He COULD, perceivably, become human and experience duality and save the planet.

how can god be in any way
>related to duality, or the nature of evil, if god is the cure
>to evil. evil cannot cure evil. so god cannot be evil.

God has choice. God can be evil. God chooses not to be evil because God is intelligent.

if we
>are able to experience duality, and god is not. why not? or
>why?

God can and God did.

peace,

***I'm a Child of Production***

******************************
http://profiles.myspace.com/users/1281849
******************************
"me as a black man will not
stand here and allow you to
talk dumb shit about white
women that simply is not true"
SouthPhillyMan

"If I see

and i stated this above. why is the ability to experience duality make us stronger than god? perhaps it is this duality that makes us weaker!

>and i stated this above. why is the ability to experience
>duality make us stronger than god? perhaps it is this duality
>that makes us weaker!

Well, as I suggested in a reply. It is possible, that we are a tool, devised by god, to test duality, or to, experiment with it, learn it, observe, etc. Why? Perhaps, evil does exist, yet god cannot defeat evil, as god cannot even have the slightest conception of it, beyond it's destructive force. How can a God, that is free from all evil, have the slightest notion of it? According to my logic, god can only be aware of it's destructive force, but not it's structure or construction. If god, who is taught to be free from evil, had a conception of it, he could simply, eliminate it. Yet, if god is FREE of evil, and possibly not all knowing, and perhaps vulnerable to evil because evil is outside the realm of god, than god has a weakness. and that is evil, which means, god's death. I am suggesting that human beings were created in order to observe and experiment with evil, as physical beings, who share an important connection with god. So, if evil is to destroy us, evil will destroy god. perhaps, human beings are the doubled edged sword. we are capable of evil, and destruction to what is evil, and to what is good. the problem may be the imbalance of our emotions, etc etc. we are free willed, and therefore, if we are truly a weapon or tool created by god, we are free thinking, and able to defeat evil, without god's help. once again, god has no conception of evil beyond it's destructive force, meaning, that we are on the front lines, acting free from god's hand, as how can god fight something, god does not understand? therefore, we are specil in such a way, as we have the power to defeat evil, as we are here, experimenting with it, using it, and so on. we are here on this world, as those that are bleeding and dying. will any believer in god ever say, "god is dead", i don't think so. so, let us assume that god is alive, but, not here, because if god were here, god would be killed. we are natural creations, such as animals, so even if we do not want to believe we come from god, we come from nature, as we reflect very pure and beautiful things that nature is ample with. however, we are special, as we are different to animals. we are political animals. there is surely a reason for that, don't you think?

peace.

~
This is the life I chose, or rather the life that chose me
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I fade to black
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I f

perhaps God chooses to allow evil so that we may experience duality and choose freely between the two.

~
This is the life I chose, or rather the life that chose me
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I fade to black
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I f

you are argueing that God is not all powerful and you back up your claim by saying that humans are stronger than God because humans can experience duality. the problem is you assume duality makes us stronger but their is no evidence to support that.

I provided logical evidence. It's all laid out in my response to you. We are able to experience duality, so that we learn evil, and perhaps, as we learn evil, we can destroy evil. God cannot destroy evil, as God has no conception of something s/he is the equal opposite force to. Essentially, I am saying, that we are a tool devised by god, perhaps limited to our sensory and thought experience, yet, powerful enough, to observe duailty, and test evil, in order to find a way to, defeat it.
Peace.
~
This is the life I chose, or rather the life that chose me
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I fade to black
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I f

>>God has no conception of something s/he is the equal opposite force to

how could God define what s/he is without knowing what s/he isn't? if you are what you aren't, you know what it is you're not. i'm not a female, i don't have breasts, but i know what it is to be female. why would God not know what it is to be evil (assuming of course that the definition of God is that he is good). and as mentioned, you assume that duality is the basis of power.

------
"I can't promise I'll try. But I'll try to try."

>>>God has no conception of something s/he is the equal
>opposite force to
>
>how could God define what s/he is without knowing what s/he
>isn't? if you are what you aren't, you know what it is you're
>not.

Right. God knows he is not Evil. Yet, he cannot defeat evil, because there is no trace of Evil within God. How can God fight something he does not comprehend? Wouldn't you need to know your enemy, in order to defeat it? What better tool than human beings, to discover evil, and how it operates, etc.


i'm not a female, i don't have breasts, but i know what
>it is to be female.

You don't know what it is to be female. You only have ideas, which, you were exposed to in a social world. A female will never understand what it is to be a man, and a man will not understand what it is a female, simply because, neither is two at once. Or, one for a bit, and then the other.

why would God not know what it is to be
>evil (assuming of course that the definition of God is that he
>is good). and as mentioned, you assume that duality is the
>basis of power.

god cannot not know what it is to be evil, because he is in theory, the exact opposite. does a positive charge know, what it's like to be a negative charge? also, i don't think duality is the basis of power. i think the experience of duality, is the basis of knowledge, experience, and action, if taken. i am trying to say, that human beings are special, and that we cannot rely on God to defeat evil, but must rely on ourselves, and our own gifts, that were given to us, by "god", all in theory ofcourse. in those gifts, we can either believe in god or not (free will). and so, here is where the power comes in, we are more powerful than god, because we can either believe or not, enter hell (metaphor) or not, experiment with evil, and use it, or not. we have choice, so, in a sense we are a special tool, as we are aware of our own existence, and our abilities, and we can choose where we stand. and to build on this, jesus was human. why would god send a HUMAN son to suffer? was jesus, a tool? most people would say yes. why would god need a tool? if god is all powerful, why does he need a HUMAN tool? a man, to come and experience evil, and then die?

peace.

~
This is the life I chose, or rather the life that chose me
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I fade to black
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I f

but if i can't "know" what it is to be a woman, i can still defeat one, no? i see the point you're trying to make, but you're kind of all over the place. you use one argument to make a point, then knock the leg out from under that argument to make another point. you say God can't know evil because he is the complete opposite. yet then you say he is omnipotent. is it inconceivable to think that an omnipotent being could learn what evil is? and you also don't consider the fact that perhaps supreme power is overcoming one's duality; that God is a being that conquered duality.

------
"I can't promise I'll try. But I'll try to try."

>but if i can't "know" what it is to be a woman, i can still
>defeat one, no? i see the point you're trying to make, but
>you're kind of all over the place. you use one argument to
>make a point, then knock the leg out from under that argument
>to make another point. you say God can't know evil because he
>is the complete opposite. yet then you say he is omnipotent.
>is it inconceivable to think that an omnipotent being could
>learn what evil is? and you also don't consider the fact that
>perhaps supreme power is overcoming one's duality; that God is
>a being that conquered duality.

Can you defeat a woman? Women have experienced some of the greatest hardship in this world, and continue to do so. Yet, women are still strong. So, yes, you may kill one woman, but you will never defeat women. We are not speaking about us though, we are speaking about god. I don't think it is illogical to say that God cannot defeat Evil, even though he is omnipotent. God may have unlimited influence, in whatever he is, and understands. And perhaps, god's influence, ends where evil begins. As god is supposed to be Pure, and not Evil.

I am not sure if supreme power is overcoming duality. I don't think we can escape or overcome duality. I think we are dual beings, by the simple thought vs. perception. However, I do see your point and I acknolwedge that, yes, God may have conquered his duality, but, if God conquered duality, why is there need for duality in his creations? We are born dual, do you agree, or disagree?

Peace.


~
This is the life I chose, or rather the life that chose me
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I fade to black
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I f

According to Christianity god created the devil. Who is evil. What is supposed to make humans unique is our will. Our ability to choose. So, Satan could not have that ability, which would mean God created evil.

>I provided logical evidence. It's all laid out in my response
>to you. We are able to experience duality, so that we learn
>evil, and perhaps, as we learn evil, we can destroy evil. God
>cannot destroy evil, as God has no conception of something
>s/he is the equal opposite force to. Essentially, I am saying,
>that we are a tool devised by god, perhaps limited to our
>sensory and thought experience, yet, powerful enough, to
>observe duailty, and test evil, in order to find a way to,
>defeat it.

how do you know God has no conception of his antithesis? and why do you keep assuming duality = strength?

>how do you know God has no conception of his antithesis? and
>why do you keep assuming duality = strength?

i am suggesting that duality equals strength, because i don't think god is dual. if god is not dual andin our world here, he is limited. we have the opportunity to study evil, and find a way to defeat it, as it is easily available to us. we can be evil any second, at any moment in time. can god be evil? how can god be evil? if god is the supposed exact opposite? can you be a female right now? go ahead and try, be a female. can you alter your body without surgery? ofcourse not! so what makes you think that god can?

if you don't want to think of it as strength, think of it as 'unique', or 'special'. i think human beings are special, and for that reason, more powerful than god, whom is omnipotent, because human beings can destroy evil, and got cannot. in my eyes, god does not have a conception of evil, beyond it's destructive power. think of a negative and positive charge. does a positive charge know how to be a negative charge? can a positive charge be a negative charge by itself, or can it only experience those changes if it undergoes some type of reaction or is engaged in a relationship with the other charge?
peace.
~
This is the life I chose, or rather the life that chose me
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I fade to black
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I f

well i would agree that humans are unique but i wouldnt go as far as saying that god is limited in his knowledge and power.

God is limited in evil, in which case, his knowledge and power over it, is very limited. Peace yo!

~
This is the life I chose, or rather the life that chose me
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I fade to black
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I f

>God is limited in evil, in which case, his knowledge and
>power over it, is very limited. Peace yo!

well im just gonna have to diagree with you on this. i know that religious scholars and philosophrs are divided on this issue as well.

i think most people missunderstand the concept of god. and personally i don't see how you can separate the two, or rather once you separate human from god, all you get is confusion.

such as the statement that mankind is greater than god. which i think is confused. but for the sake of discussion it does make sense to take a stance... and make a subjective statement.

what i am saying is that you have to define what god is. to me (subjective) god is the most high. so how could anyone be better than the most high? but within that, god is everything.

if you get into the etymology of the word god, then it's easy to see how one could make that statement. where does the word god come from? what concept is connected to it?

for instance, the denigration of another culture's 'god' easilly hinges around a lack of understanding of that persons culture and thus their point of view. the concept is lost in the translation and then you make a qualitative and subjective comment like 'my god is better than yours.' or 'my understanding of god is greater than yours' both are inherently incorrect as god is something very personal and can only be experienced for a person by that person.

anyways, suzuki said it well when he said 'how can you talk about ? when you speak you only talk about the dark or the light. the positive or the negative. and thus only confuse the listener because you are only giving them half of the story (paraphrased)'

i think western religions dogmatic approach to god makes a 'god' that is not greater than man. industrial religion. but even that statement falls within the jurasdiction of the statement above....

ok?

like when Doctor Doom stole the Beyonder's omnipotent power in Secret Wars.

--------------------------------------------------
"If your music was any good it would've
been stolen by the white man by now."

- Triumph the Insult Comic Dog

no. god is all powerful

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------------------------------------------------------------
subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You).
Ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be
worshipped except You). Astaghfiruka

I mean I agree, but I don't even know where to begin.



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Peace.
~
This is the life I chose, or rather the life that chose me
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I fade to black
If you can't respect that, your whole perspective is whack
Maybe you'll love me when I f

We are created. He is the creator. It's pure and utter arrogance to even consider mankind on any level equivalent to Allah.

Here are some proofs from the Qu'ran:

Surah Baqara
2:255 Allah. There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).

Surah Hashr
59:22 Allah is He, than Whom there is no other god;- Who knows (all things) both secret and open; He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

59:23 Allah is He, than Whom there is no other god;- the Sovereign, the Holy One, the Source of Peace (and Perfection), the Guardian of Faith, the Preserver of Safety, the Exalted in Might, the Irresistible, the Supreme: Glory to Allah. (High is He) above the partners they attribute to Him.

59:24 He is Allah, the Creator, the Evolver, the Bestower of Forms (or Colours). To Him belong the Most Beautiful Names: whatever is in the heavens and on earth, doth declare His Praises and Glory: and He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

Surah Hajj
2 3 Oh men! Here is a parable set forth! listen to it! Those on whom, besides Allah, ye call, cannot create (even) a fly, if they all met together for the purpose! and if the fly should snatch away anything from them, they would have no power to release it from the fly. Feeble are those who petition and those whom they petition!


Here are some words to reflect on regarding pride and arrogance:

...As for the beginning of man, he was "a thing unremembered". He was concealed in non-existence. Non-existence has no beginning. What is lower and meaner than obliteration and non-existence? He was in non-existence. Then Allah created him from the basest of things, and then from the most unclean thing. He created him from earth and then from a sperm-drop, then a blood-clot, then a lump of flesh. Then He made the flesh bones, and then clothes the bones in flesh. This was the beginning of his existence and then he became a thing remembered. He was a thing unremembered by reason of having the lowest of qualities and attributes since at his beginning, he was not created perfect. he was created inanimate, dead. He neither heard, saw, felt, moved, spoke, touched, perceived, or knew. He began by his death before his life, by weakness before his strength, by ignorance before knowledge, by blindness before sight, by deafness before hearing, by dumbness before speech, by misguidance before guidance, by poverty before wealth, and by incapacity before capacity.

it goes on to say....

Allah created him like that at the beginning. Then Allah was gracious to him (man) and said, "We made the way easy for him." This indicates what He wills for him during the period from life to death. Similarly, He said, "of a sperm-drop, a mingling, trying him. We made him hearing, seeing. We guided him on the way." The meaning here is that He gave him life after he was inanimate and dead - first from the earth, and then from a sperm-drop. He gave him hearing after he was deaf and He gave him sight after he lacked sight. He gave him strenght after weakness and knowledge after ignorance. He created his limbs for him with all they contain of marvels and signs after he lacked them. He enriched them after poverty, made him full after hunger, clothed him after nakedness, and guided him after misguidance. Look how He directed him and formed him. Look at how He made the way easy for him. Look at man's overstepping and at how thankless he is. Look at man's ignorance and how he shows it.

further it says....

He first acquainted him with his baseness and said, "Was he not a sperm-drop extracted? Then he was a blood-clot. Then He mentioned His favour and said, "He created and fashioned and made a pair from it, male and female," in order to perpetuate his existence by reproduction as his existence was acquired in the beginning by original formation. When you begin in this manner and your states are like this, how can you have arrogance, pride, glory, and conceit? Properly speaking, man is the lowest of the low and the weakest of the weak. Indeed, even if He had perfecteed him, delegated his command to him and made his existence go on by his own choice, he would still dare to be insolent and would forget his beginning and his end. However, during your existence, He has given illnesses power over you, whether you like it or not, and whether you are content or enraged. You become hungry and thirsty without being able to do anything about it. You do not possess any power to bring either harm or benefit. You ant to know something but you remain ignorant of it. You want to remember something and yet you forget it. You want to not forget something and yet you do forget it. You want to direct your heart to waht concerns it and yet you are caught up in the valleys of whispersings and thoughts. You own neither your heart nor your self. You desire something while your destruction may be in it, and you detest something while your life may be in it. You find some foods delicious when they destroy and kill you, and you find remedies repugnant when they help you and save you. You are not safe for a moment, day or night. Your sight, knowledge, and power may be stripped away, your limbs may become semi-paralysed, your intellect may be stolen away, your ruh may be snatched away, and all that you love in this world may be taken from you. You are hard-pressed, abased. If you are left alone, you go on. If you are snatched away, you are annihilated. A mere slave. A chattel. You have no power over yourself or anyone else. What can be more abased? If you recognise yourself, how can you think yourself worthy of pride? If it were not for your ignorance - and this is your immediate state - you would reflect on it. Your end is death. It is indicated by His word, "Then He makes him die and buries him. Then, when He wills, He raises him." The meaning here is that your ruh, hearing, sight, knowledge, power, senses, perception, and movement are all stripped away. You revert to the inanimate as you were in the first place. Only the shape of your limbs remains. Your form has neither senses nor movement. Then you are placed in the earth and your limbs decay. You become absent after you existed. You become as if you were not, as you were at first for a long period of time. Then a man wishes that he could remain like that. How excellent it would be if he were left as dust! However, after a long time, He brings him back to life to subject him to a severe trial. He comes out of his grave after his spearated parts are joined together, and he steps out to the terrors of the Rising. He is told, "Come quickly to the Reckoning and prepare for the Outcome!" His heart stops in fear and panic when he is faced with the terror of these words even before his pages are spread out and he sees his shameful actions in them. This is the end of his affair. It is the meaning of His word, "Then when He wishes, He raises him."

How can anyone whose state this is be arrogant?

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subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You).
Ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be
worshipped except You). Astaghfiruka

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www.ummah1421.com/boards
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no disrespect brother.... u just cant come 2 ppl that dont bare witness to your belief by simply reciting quotes from your religious doctrine to prove your point....

*******************************************************
i will not let finite disappointment undermine infinite hope
- Cory Booker

Football is a simple game; 22 men chase a ball for 90 minutes, and at the end the Germans always win
- Gary Lineker

Did it not make sense?

Obviously the poster believes there is a God. So we're past step A. The problem is that the poster has an incorrect opinion about God. Is not God the best to give proof of his power? The Qu'ran is uncontested in it's form and glory. It is a proof in and of itself. As Allah says to those who doubt it:

2:23 And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura (chapter) like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true.

2:24 But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.

It's not rhetoric. It's the absolute truth like night and day. How can a created thing overpower it's creator? How can a creature that has no control over it's life, death, provisions, and health be like the one who owns and controls everything? The one that was neither born nor will ever die. The one that is able to do whatever he wills?

Like I said in my first post, it's a completely ignorant statement.

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subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You).
Ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be
worshipped except You). Astaghfiruka

>Did it not make sense?

to u.... not 2 me...

>The Qu'ran is uncontested in it's form and glory. It is
>a proof in and of itself.

that's not true either...

but if it's working 4 u, fine... do u...

*******************************************************
i will not let finite disappointment undermine infinite hope
- Cory Booker

Football is a simple game; 22 men chase a ball for 90 minutes, and at the end the Germans always win
- Gary Lineker

What I presented are verses from the Qu'ran and the perspective of Shaykh Uthman dan Fodio regarding verses of the Qu'ran related to pride. There's nothing of my own opinion or personal statements outside of the Subject line of my post.

Contest it! I don't think you can. You haven't even presented a point of view, just combated the information I've presented.

Are you saying that we humans are more powerful than God?

Are you saying that God can be overcome by humans?

Are you saying God is not all powerful?

What's your point?

------------------------------------------------------------
subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You).
Ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be
worshipped except You). Astaghfiruka

it is mere rhetoric... u say it's divine revelation, i would say it is nothing but another piece of litterature, no matter how great it is, written by man... but like i said, if it works 4 u, fine... do u... cause i been there, done that...

*******************************************************
i will not let finite disappointment undermine infinite hope
- Cory Booker

Football is a simple game; 22 men chase a ball for 90 minutes, and at the end the Germans always win
- Gary Lineker

Why respond to my post with mere conjecture?
At least come with a point.
What's your position? You still haven't answered the questions I posed? Do you even believe God?

------------------------------------------------------------
subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You).
Ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be
worshipped except You). Astaghfiruka

there's no point 2 use rational thought when u deal with someone whose opinion is based on faith.... that's why i keep tellin u that if it works 4 u, fine...

*******************************************************
i will not let finite disappointment undermine infinite hope
- Cory Booker

Football is a simple game; 22 men chase a ball for 90 minutes, and at the end the Germans always win
- Gary Lineker

nor have I asked you to engage in argument. Rather I've asked you state your point of view since you took time to combat my point. I've presented nothing but a rational argument. While I will definitely agree that true faith at times goes beyond what man can reason. However, we can also take an approach that falls in the way of basic reasoning.

Islam is for people who reflect. Which is why I can't understand how a person that believes in God could reduce God to being below his own creation. That doesn't make any sense. The one that created all things can be overpowered by his creation? You don't think that's rhetoric and poor logic and reasoning?

The one that created the basic matter of life, created every creature, every plant, water, etc. Is lower than a creature that can't even control himself? C'mon...we don't give God his just measure. We don't hold God in the right estimate.

------------------------------------------------------------
subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You).
Ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be
worshipped except You). Astaghfiruka

so yup....

humans....

Right. I can't believe it myself. This may be the dumbest thing I've heard this week.

I'm curious as to how you would define "God".

My closes definition for "God" would be the perfect balance of "good" and "evil".




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