HAS ANYONE HEARD OF THIS ??? I WAS LISTENING TO THIS PROGRAM AND THEY WERE SAYING THAT JESUS HAD A WIFE AND CHILDREN DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIME THAT THE BIBLE LEAVES OUT ... HAS ANYONE HEARD ABOUT THIS ????

"Niggas mad cause Ibrags about the cash I got, but I'm used to not havin alot, I'm from the gutter and ohh..."-Jay-Z

"Expensive shoes worn, Loui Viton see-through gone, CoChes, my face is like a coupon..."Jay-Z

remember at the foot of the cross who was standing there? Jesus' brother James,,, aiiight aiighttttttttttttt word... he supposedly had other brothers and sisters too, i think this can be read in josephus flavius' writings...

two i think...it's not disputed or anything, but it's not really mentioned too much. He definitely had brothers though.

¡¿WILL?!

Brainfood:
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I wrote this, Brainchild performed it:
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"I used to suck dick for coke!" -- Bob Saget

"the proceeds were an early 80's supergroup managed by philip michael thomas of miami vice fame. they were so named because pretty much all of the "proceeds" went to feeding his 37 kids. it included the brother question on the drums, herve villachez on the upright bass, the lead singer from drs (gangsta lean) on lead vocals, ralph from the muppets on keys and that chick from john salley's show on electric tambourine" -- McScoobySnack on Kyleeezeee's question "who was the proceed drummer?"

i'm back...?

But I saw a listing for a book talking about Jesus' life after all the known stories about him. Something about living in the southern part of France.

Not saying I believe any of it. Just saying it sounds like something I've heard before.

RED
I'm like that guy who used a pointed stick instead of a rock.

RED
http://arrena.blogspot.com

there's a book called "Holy Blood, Holy Grail"...forgive me for forgetting the author's name. It's pretty hefty, but friends have told me it's an eye opener. It touches on this idea & others. (it's widely available)

The movie "Dogma" also makes some interesting points...

But just remember: we don't know WHAT Jesus did between 12-30. So it's certainly very possible. And hey, Mary & Joseph *were* married...just because she was a virgin when Jesus was born doesn't mean she *stayed* that way.


~~~SPITFIRE: 6/28/01~~~
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~~~~
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Isn't complete fiction there is no loop hole in Christianity. Plus the oxymoron of an atheist playing the part of a priest.
(well the second part might not be ficition all the time) but that movie was way off.

Isn't should be IS

just saying the film brings up interesting points to think about and research. Like the idea of Jesus having siblings or the (probably enormous amount of) missing information in the Bible.

The way the ideas are presented & dealt with is fictional, yes. But the theories & questions have been around about as long as the religion itself.




~~~SPITFIRE (NEW DATE): AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
carameldom@hotmail.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bmore-Okayplayers
(((oh yeah...do us a favor & vote here: http://www.geocities.com/bmorestreetwise/flyers.html)))

"cats pop champagne/over misery and pain/like slaves on the ship/talkin 'bout/who got the flyest chains" ~~Talib Kweli

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~~~~
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http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

The point im getting at is Go to the source (The Bible) To see what it says on the issue. And yes Jesus had siblings that's not a mystery Luke 8: 19 "Now Jesus' mother and brothers came to see him" Mark 6: 3 "Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?"

Now as for the His childhood not being written about completely there is one about Him when he was twelve teaching in the Temple Luke 2: 41-52. One can also conclude that Jesus stayed in one area throughout His childhood due to the reaction He received from His fellow townsmen when He claimed he was the Messiah. (He was rejected) Luke 4: 14-30

>The point im getting at is
>Go to the source (The
>Bible) To see what it
>says on the issue.

I can't take the Bible as the "source" of anything but the Christian faith. Just as the Vedas are the "source" of the Hindu faith. It has been too corrupted by too many hands through too many centuries. I'm still studying all these things, so check with me in a few months


>And
>yes Jesus had siblings that's
>not a mystery Luke 8:
>19 "Now Jesus' mother and
>brothers came to see him"
>Mark 6: 3 "Isn't this
>Mary's son and the brother
>of James, Joseph, Judas and
>Simon? Aren't his sisters here
>with us?"

ok...

>
>Now as for the His childhood
>not being written about completely
>there is one about Him
>when he was twelve teaching
>in the Temple Luke 2:
>41-52.

Yes, that is well-known, but after that we know next to nothing. At least that's what I've always been told.


>One can also conclude
>that Jesus stayed in one
>area throughout His childhood due
>to the reaction He received
>from His fellow townsmen when
>He claimed he was the
>Messiah. (He was rejected) Luke
>4: 14-30

I'd have to read the passage, but just going off what you said here, would it really matter? I mean, whether it was your next door neighbor or some guy halfway across the world, if he came back after x number of years and professed to be the Messiah, would you believe him?


~~~SPITFIRE (NEW DATE): AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
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"cats pop champagne/over misery and pain/like slaves on the ship/talkin 'bout/who got the flyest chains" ~~Talib Kweli

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~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

Peace

>Mark 6: 3 "Isn't this
>Mary's son and the brother
>of James, Joseph, Judas and
>Simon?

okay brothaz and sisters. he did have siblingz but most parts of the Bible cant be taken literally. Now obviously, These men were his disciples who were chosen out of a crowd. These men were his spiritual brothers...not physical. they were close to the same age yall.


If you miss one, you miss many, but if you reach one, you reach plenty. -me

I just wanna innovate, stimulate minds...travel the world and penetrate the times -common

The ghetto is mad hot, we steppin on flames -black thought

way off according to what?remember,there is alot we don't know about the man.the fact of whether or not he even existed(in the way the catholic church presents him)is questionable within itself.

To the second part of your post, Christ presented Himself as God. (100% Man and 100% God) We get this information from The eyewitness accouts i.e. the Gospels, as well as non-biblical sources such as Flavius and so on.
Certain Catholic "Traditions" are way off as well. The essenials of the catholic Faith are authentic.(example Christ's Deity, Adam's Original Sin, Triunity of God, Death and Resurrection of Christ and so on.

How are the Gospels eyewitness accounts?

Oh yeah the Josephus Flavius references to Christ were FORGERIES.

PEace
Solarus

***Words of Wisdom***

"If it's not about NATIONBUILDING, it's not about ANYTHING."- Dr. John Henrik Clarke

"We are not the victims! We are just fighting forces that we cannot see!"-2001 Sankofa Conference

"You don't have the RIGHT to have free time from your children."-Kwame Agyei Akoto

"It is the worst feeling to hear the call of the drum and not be able to respond."-Solarus

On understanding Afrakan thought:
"it's like explaining astrophysics to a whino, the explanation can't be done like that. when people try to simplify it, they ask the other person to tailor the answers their cultural context. and trying to cater afrikan ideals to european understanding is a REAL sin."-utamaroho

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

"just as they were handed down to us by those who were eyewitnesses"....

Luke's information came from eyewitness account.
Matthew, John Mark, and John the apostle Walked with Christ and were eyewitnesses. That's how the Gospel becomes Eyewitness account. The information comes from those who were with Christ.

Flavius forged???? By who?? cmon Hotep where are you gettin this from?

And to retort Flavius is not the only Non-Christian source that historical evidence agrees with the New Testament.

Tactius- The first-century Roman is considered one of the more accurate historians of the ancient world.

Suetonius- Was chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian (reign 117-138)

Josephus- A historian, working under the auspices of Emperor Vespasian. His Antiquities dates to the early 90s a.d.

Thallus - Wrote around 52 a.d. fragments of his works are still existant.

Pliny the younger- Young roman author and administrator.

Emperor Trajan- Replys to Pliny in a letter on how to punishs Christians

Emperor Hadrian- Christian Historian Eusebius(265-339)records a letter to Minicius Fundanus, the Asian proconsul.

The Talmud- Talmudic writings between 70 and 200 AD

there are many more.

This quote comes from the Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics

" The first step in establishing the historicity of the New testament id to show that the NT documents have been accurately transmitted from the time of their original composition. This is demostrated in the article New testament Manuscripts.
That second step is to show that they were written by reliable eyewitnesses or contemporaries of the events. For this see New testament, Dating Of. Contrary to critics , there is more evidence for the historicity of the life, death, and resurrection of Christ than any other event from the ancient world.

http://www.okayplayer.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=2643&forum=DCForumID1&omm=0



~~~SPITFIRE (NEW DATE): AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
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"you can't fool me! I'm too stupid!" (c) a random warner bros. cartoon character

~~~~
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http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

The person that wrote this article is WAYYYY Off!

the subject cut me off Read Post 72 & 73 on that thread!!!

yes, that article may be "off" in some respects...history is tinged with the opinions and power dynamics of its authors.

but you can't keep throwing up the Bible and Bible supporters if you really want to make an argument for or against this topic.

the idea is to read opposing and supporting histories. what usually happens is you begin to see a middle ground based on FACTS from BOTH sides. and then you can decide for yourself.

have faith. but don't let it blind you.



~~~SPITFIRE (NEW DATE): AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
carameldom@hotmail.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bmore-Okayplayers
(((oh yeah...do us a favor & vote here: http://www.geocities.com/bmorestreetwise/flyers.html)))

"cats pop champagne/over misery and pain/like slaves on the ship/talkin 'bout/who got the flyest chains" ~~Talib Kweli

"you can't fool me! I'm too stupid!" (c) a random warner bros. cartoon character

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

but you can't keep throwing up
the Bible and Bible supporters
if you really want to
make an argument for or
against this topic.

Lex, So by this comment are you giving me limits to which i can debate an issue? Plus this post would be a one-sided convo if i and osoclasi didnt bring forth evidence to defend the Faith of Christianity. Is not most post in activist about Christianity against the Faith? Lex Have I not giving you sources of People That oppose the Christian Faith? (when i posted about Non-biblical sources that argee with the historical accounts in the New Testaments)Have i not giving you references where you check for yourself contrary to what i type? The Non-biblicial sources were written by people who were not Christian and they didnt believe in Christ as the God Incarnated as Christians view him.

the idea is to read opposing
and supporting histories. what usually
happens is you begin to
see a middle ground based
on FACTS from BOTH sides.
and then you can decide
for yourself.

Isn't that what i did. Now after gaining information from both sides one must choose a side, to either be For or Against something. There is no lovely gray area when it comes to the Christian faith or any other faith for that matter. You either believe it whole heartedly or you don't. Matter of fact why dont you check out this book called The Historical Jesus, by Gary Habermas.

>have faith. but don't let it blind you.

My faith is reinforced by historical evidence. If one blindly chose their faith would they be able to defend their belief? Of course not. The only thing one could say is that i believe becuase i believe. I know what I believe and the reasons why I believe it.

>Lex, So by this comment are
>you giving me limits to
>which i can debate an
>issue?

no, not at all.


>Plus this post would
>be a one-sided convo if
>i and osoclasi didnt bring
>forth evidence to defend the
>Faith of Christianity.

Not arguing faith here. We're arguing history (at least that's what I took the original question to mean).


>Isn't that what i did. Now
>after gaining information from both
>sides one must choose a
>side, to either be For
>or Against something.

ok.


>There is
>no lovely gray area when
>it comes to the Christian
>faith or any other faith
>for that matter. You either
>believe it whole heartedly or
>you don't.

true. but I wasn't coming from that angle. you can have all the faith in the world in Jesus. But the question is a historical one. that's the only point I was trying to make. and some of the "history" in the Bible has been widely debated.


>Matter of fact
>why dont you check out
>this book called The Historical
>Jesus, by Gary Habermas.

sounds interesting.


>My faith is reinforced by historical
>evidence. If one blindly chose
>their faith would they be
>able to defend their belief?
>Of course not. The only
>thing one could say is
>that i believe becuase i
>believe. I know what I
>believe and the reasons why
>I believe it.

Truthfully, I applaud you. You are more well versed than most. I didn't read all of your responses. But in the ones I had, it seemed the Bible verses were more prominent than the historical proofs. That's what prompted me to post what I did. Sorry if it seemed I jumped the gun.



~~~SPITFIRE (NEW DATE): AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
Wanna know more? Hit me up: carameldom@hotmail.com
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"cats pop champagne/over misery and pain/like slaves on the ship/talkin 'bout/who got the flyest chains" ~~Talib Kweli

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~~~~
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http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

but you can't keep throwing up
the Bible and Bible supporters
if you really want to
make an argument for or
against this topic.

As i posted before where does Majority of information about Christ or Christian Faith stem from? So why wouldn't I use the Bible as main source of Info? For one to give accurate info one must return to the Source of where that info comes from.

I have to find the a specific reference for the FLavius account but in that is a POPULAR historical controversy. Because Flavius was JEWISH and NOT CHRISTIAN it is considered highly unlikely that he would write such postive depiction of the Jesus calling him the "Son of God." Also the passages on Christ in his writings have been argued to be syntactily different from his other writings therefore furthering the argument that it is most likely an insertion into his writings to give more validity to the man called "Christ." Let us not forget that the Christian church was responsible for the destruction of many texts not supporting it (Roman Empire throughout northern Afraka, Europe, "Mid-East" etc.) and in Europe, the Church controlled ALL of the literature.

Also the references to "Christ" in the Talmud, DO NOT support the existence of the Biblical Jesus (New Testament). You should read it sometime.


PEace
Solarus

***Words of Wisdom***

"If it's not about NATIONBUILDING, it's not about ANYTHING."- Dr. John Henrik Clarke

"We are not the victims! We are just fighting forces that we cannot see!"-2001 Sankofa Conference

"You don't have the RIGHT to have free time from your children."-Kwame Agyei Akoto

"It is the worst feeling to hear the call of the drum and not be able to respond."-Solarus

On understanding Afrakan thought:
"it's like explaining astrophysics to a whino, the explanation can't be done like that. when people try to simplify it, they ask the other person to tailor the answers their cultural context. and trying to cater afrikan ideals to european understanding is a REAL sin."-utamaroho

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

>I have to find the a
>specific reference for the FLavius
>account but in that is
>a POPULAR historical controversy.

Antiquities 18: 3 -"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man.".. And yes it has been quetioned by scholars, that an Orthodox Jew would call Jesus the Christ. Flavius didnt Believe Christ was the Messiah (Stated in his book Contra Celsum 1: 47)But despite these concerns there are reasons in favor of accepting Most of the text as genuine. First, There is good texual evidence for the mention of Jesus and No textual evidence against it. Second, the text is written in the Style of Flavius. Third, some of the words most likely did not come from a Christian. Fourth, the passage fits its context gramtically and historically. Fifth, the Reference to Jesus in Antiquities 20 presuppose the earlier passage. finally an Arabic version of the text contains the basic elements without the quetionable parts:
"At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. His conduct was good and was known to be virtuous. And many people Became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who became his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixon, and that he alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders" (Habemas,Gary Ancient Evidence for the Life of Jesus)

As for Talmud The most significant text is Sanhedrin 43a
this passage confirms the crucifixion, the timing of the event on the eve of passover, and the accusation of sorcery and apostasy.

that certain ideas presented in Dogma, such as the loophole that would allow the two banished angels to re-enter heaven is based on old beliefs within the Roman Catholic church. As we all know the Catholic church has been historically notorious for such traditions- remember the time when people could literally buy their way into heaven by giving money to the Church? As a Catholic myself, I'm aware of the contradictions, manipulations, and inconsistencies that the leaders of Church have used to gain power. Moreover, I also know that a lot of Catholics aren't even aware of this history, or simply just choose to ignore it.

I can also relate to the scenes in the movie where they showed a mass and churchgoers were not in tune to the priest. Though heavily exaggerated, I know that the Church has been criticized in the past for its followers just going to Church, but not really understanding why its rituals and traditions are even practiced. So while Dogma is fiction, I think that it is still a good critique of those who follow the Catholic faith and poses questions that many of us never even bother to ask because we've always been told to never ask 'why?'.
___________________________
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"education is our passport to the future; for tomorrow belongs to those who prepare for it today."

__________________________________________

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that certain ideas presented in Dogma,
such as the loophole that
would allow the two banished
angels to re-enter heaven is
based on old beliefs within
the Roman Catholic church. As
we all know the Catholic
church has been historically notorious
for such traditions-

I agree you vette the Catholic Churchs' Tradition go against that of Scripture. My point is we can now go to the source instead of waiting on Rome's "so called" infallible interpretations. Also i saw a post by Osoclasi that talked of Hermuenetics (i dont think i spelled that right) That's the science of interpreting Scripture i think we all need to learn this.


remember the
time when people could literally
buy their way into heaven
by giving money to the
Church?
But we both know that's not true. We get to Heaven through faith in Christ alone. But once again The Scripture tell us that. So those People were tricked. Poor folks.


As a Catholic myself,
I'm aware of the contradictions,
manipulations, and inconsistencies that the
leaders of Church have used
to gain power. Moreover, I
also know that a lot
of Catholics aren't even aware
of this history, or simply
just choose to ignore it.

But we can try to change that Vette, Study the Word and there are Lots of Noteworthy books that can help your knowledge of the Word. That Help with Biblical difficulties and the so on Email me if you want me to give some names of books to help your research.

I think that it
is still a good critique
of those who follow the
Catholic faith and poses questions
that many of us never
even bother to ask because
we've always been told to
never ask 'why?'.

But you can ask why and find out that Christianity is A Faith that's built on Factual evidence.
___________________________

first of all, thank you for your response, jennyfer.

just to clarify, i just wanted to point out that i am aware of the importance of separating the institution and the faith, that is what i aimed to emphasize in my earlier post in the first place. i don't have a problem with the faith, in fact i embrace it and my spirituality is quite intact. what i was also trying to point out in my earlier post is that as a Catholic, it's important to pose questions - especially with the history of manipulation and abuse in the institution. this does not mean i'm abandoning it, it's simply taking a critical look at the past in order to better understand it. that is all.
___________________________
got soy milk?
http://surf.to/parchmentpaper
"education is our passport to the future; for tomorrow belongs to those who prepare for it today."

__________________________________________

<--- Still reppin' the Bay
Life. Love. Music:
http://vettievette.wordpress.com
http://sistamatikdjs.wordpress.com

>just to clarify, i just wanted
>to point out that i
>am aware of the importance
>of separating the institution and
>the faith, that is what
>i aimed to emphasize in
>my earlier post in the
>first place.

Honestly, I can't see myself as a part of anything with that kind of contradiction. If the institution is corrupted, so is the faith, and vice versa. And it seems to me that no religion can stand up to that test. Especially Christianity.





~~~SPITFIRE (NEW DATE): AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
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"cats pop champagne/over misery and pain/like slaves on the ship/talkin 'bout/who got the flyest chains" ~~Talib Kweli

"you can't fool me! I'm too stupid!" (c) a random warner bros. cartoon character

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

>
>Honestly, I can't see myself as
>a part of anything with
>that kind of contradiction. If
>the institution is corrupted, so
>is the faith,

Not necessarily true. The institution is run by man.... man is full of flaws. Faith is something you have to have by yourself, you can't depend on an institution for that.

Peace!!!!!!
BurbKnight- Software Developer (Gyrodata Inc.- Houston)
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>Not necessarily true. The institution
>is run by man.... man
>is full of flaws.
>Faith is something you have
>to have by yourself, you
>can't depend on an institution
>for that.

that's why I don't think the "institution" is necessary. but that's just me.


~~~SPITFIRE (NEW DATE): AUGUST 23, 2001~~~
Wanna know more? Hit me up: carameldom@hotmail.com
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"cats pop champagne/over misery and pain/like slaves on the ship/talkin 'bout/who got the flyest chains" ~~Talib Kweli

"you can't fool me! I'm too stupid!" (c) a random warner bros. cartoon character

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

I do believe the bible is the true word of God, and not just something flawed by man........ Keep in mind, bible does not equal institution.

Peace!!!!!!
BurbKnight- Software Developer (Gyrodata Inc.- Houston)
////////// Sig Below//////////////////
"Dude, you're being very undude" - The Big Labowski

"I am an angry passivist"- my co-worker

Houston OkayPlayer Squad:

BurbKnight, Finesse, k_ysla, n_atalie, PolarBear, chocolateboywonder a.k.a BrotherBear (on and off), ReignStorm, MeganF (on and off), Ms.B, SoulOne, unohoo, pheen, slimpockets, voodoo1, bc, DELTA1393, foxfoto, SupermanFrom281, copperwings, MrBastard, Madame X, sthngrl, individual


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~~~~
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>there's a book called "Holy Blood,
>Holy Grail"...forgive me for forgetting
>the author's name.

the author's names if im not mistaken are: Michael Baigent, Henry Lincoln, and Richard Leigh

It's pretty
>hefty, but friends have told
>me it's an eye opener.

i hafta agree with your friends..a real eye opener..a very good read..well, i just wanted to throw the authors names out there in case someone wanted to research this book..and yes..it is widely available..should be at your local bookstore..

peace and love
sdhiphop

"and i wake up everyday..tryin to hustle my pay..get on the bus and go away..thru the city of LA..getting by, getting by..and i wake up everyday..glad i have somewhere to stay.."-subtitle(fellow project blowdian)

'you can get my duck sick'- MC Eiht

he aint had no wifey and seeds maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!!!!!!!!!!!
That was a movie. "The last temptation of Christ"



Coming soon Allbeatz.com site for beathedz

When wild stories such as this pop up the burden of proof is not on the Christian to defend it is on the person making all of this claims.
There are no sources whether internal nor external that point to this nor is there any reason to believe so. The biblical claims of Christ are your best bet and they are the easiest to prove.

------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

> When
>wild stories such as this
>pop up the burden of
>proof is not on the
>Christian to defend it is
>on the person making all
>of this claims.
> There
>are no sources whether internal
>nor external that point to
>this nor is there any
>reason to believe so. The
>biblical claims of Christ are
>your best bet and they
>are the easiest to prove.


biblical claims... easy to prove.

oh...sorry.

---21
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Shout out to them
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"Come on now, RAAAVVVEEE!" Sonlight
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"desecration at it's finest" says latenitemix

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why couldn't he have kids?when he was taken from the cross,who prepared his body for burial?it was mary magdalene.according to the hebraic law of that time,only your wife was allowed to view and prepare your body at the time of death.so she had to be his wife in order to do so.also in another passage of the bible(pardon me,but i'll post the exact verses later)where they speak of a wedding and jesus and his mother are preparing food and wondering if there is going to be enough.again,according to the law of that time only the parents of the bride and groom to be handled such things.plus they never said who got married.makes ya say hmmmm........

The feast of a wedding very important and it might go on for weeks. To fail proper hospitality was a serious offense.

Jesus and his disciples were invited to the wedding John 2: 2
Why would you invite yourself to your own wedding?

John 2: 4 Jesus replying to his mother -Dear Woman why do you involve me? My time has not yet come. (NIV) The "why do you involve me?" He's just their enjoying the festivites not getting hitched.

After the master of the banquet tasted the wine John 2: 9 he called over the bridegroom (not Jesus) and was happy about the wine being the good stuff after he tasted it!! John 2: 10

As far as Wives doing the wrapping only.... where are you gettin this info from? Jewish law stemmed from the Old Testament what book of the Old testament is this law stated in that you speak of?

LOOK FOR ALL OF YALL...... THIS WAS NOT DISCOVERED OR DESCIBED IN THE BIBLE..... SO STOP QUOTIN IT..... THESE MAY BE THE PARTS THAT ARE LOCKED UP IN THE VATICAN !!!!

"Niggas mad cause Ibrags about the cash I got, but I'm used to not havin alot, I'm from the gutter and ohh..."-Jay-Z

"Expensive shoes worn, Loui Viton see-through gone, CoChes, my face is like a coupon..."Jay-Z

THIS WAS NOT DISCOVERED OR DESCIBED
IN THE BIBLE.....
Guess where the Majority of the Information about Jesus comes from? So then Quoting the main source where the information about Jesus comes from, Would then seem very logical.


THESE MAY BE
THE PARTS THAT ARE LOCKED
UP IN THE VATICAN !!!!

You are really pulling a rabbit out of the bag. Are you really studying this? The secret society of the Vatican mayyun....yeah they have all the "secrets" you really want to know.

Assalamualaikum (May ALLAH's Peace And Blessing Be Upon You),

Isa or Jesus, as some of you may better know him (may ALLAH's Peace Be Upon Him))was sent to mankind for one reason and one reason alone and that was to spread the word of ALLAH. My brothers and sisters to better understand the life of the Porphet Isa(PBUH) refer to THE NOBLE QUR'AN for guidence.

Surah 4:171-175:

171. "O people the the Scripture! Do not exceed the limits of your religion, nor say of ALLAH aught but the truth. The Messiah Isa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of ALLAH and his word, ("BE"- and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirt (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in ALLAH and His Messengers, Say not "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For ALLAH is (the only) One Ilah (GOD), glory is to him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And ALLah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs."

172. "The Messiah will never be proud to reject to be a slave of ALLAH, nor the angels who are the near (to ALLAH). And whosoever rejects His worship and is proud, then He will gather them all together unto Himself"

173. "So, as for those who believe (in the Oneness of ALLAH - Islamic Monotheism) and did deeds of righteousness, He will give them Bounty. But as for thosewho refused his worship and were proud, He will punish them with painful torment. And they will not find for themselves besides ALLAH any protector or helper"

174. "O Mankind! Verily, there has come to you a convincing proof (Prophet Muhammed (May ALLAH's Peace and Blessings Be Upon Him)) from your LORD; and We sent down to you a manifest light (THE QUR'AN).

175. "So, as for those who believed in ALLAH and held fast to him, He will admit them to His Mercy and Grace (i.e. Paradise), and guide them to Himself by the straight path."

-May ALLAH's Peace and Blessings Be Upon You All-
Khalid Abdul-Raheem

I have to give you credit on your respone but I really do not believe that the Qur'an can be considerd an a reliable source in this case. There are just to many holes in it for it to be considered a book of Divine Inspiration. Both the Bibical view of Jesus and the Islamic view of Christ cannot both be right in there claims.One says that he is God the other a prophet.

But if we are to be consistant with the teachings of the Qur'an Jesus is placed higher than just a prophet. He was sinless(Sura 3:46) Muhammed sinned and needed forgiveness(Sura 40:55 and 42:5) Jesus did Miracles ( Sura 3:49) Muhammed did not (sura 13:8 also 6:37;6:109;17:59)Jesus was the Messiah (sura 3:45;4:157,171)Muhammed did not. Jesus went to heavan (Sura 4:157) however sura 199:33 says he died and would be ressurected.
If anything the Qua'ran might as well claim that he is God they gave him everything else.

Another area of confusion is the unity of God. Although Muslims attack the Trinty( a concept most Muslims do not understand or just cannot express correctly). But Muslims allow for somethig besides Allah to be eternal expression of God without being numerically identical to him the Qur'an. Muslim scholars along with the Qua'ran have made distintions within Gods unity. Sura 85:21-22 "Nay this is a Glorious Qur'an in a Tablet Preserved. The Qur'an is uncreated and identical to the mind of God. Thus why can't Christ be the eternal "expression of Divine Will?

PS If you want to comment on this please do so with gentleness and respect. It might take me time to respond because I donnot have a computer of my own and please forgive any errors in grammer.

------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

Before you read, please know it is not my intention to be harsh or rude. Rather, this is my attempt to help you understand the reality of Islam, insha' Allah.

>I have to give you credit
>on your respone but I
>really do not believe that
>the Qur'an can be considerd
>an a reliable source in
>this case. There are just
>to many holes in it
>for it to be considered
>a book of Divine Inspiration.
>Both the Bibical view of
>Jesus and the Islamic view
>of Christ cannot both be
>right in there claims.One says
>that he is God the
>other a prophet.

There are no holes in the Qur'an, but there may be holes in the English interpretation that you are reading from because man makes error. Also, the condensed English interpretation of the Qur'an has little or no Tafseer or explanation from Sunnah and the Qur'an itself. Also, the Qur'an abrogates the original Torah and the original Gospel (not the same as any of the books of the New Testament), and both of these are not to be found in their original condition today. The original Torah and Gospel were Books that were to be expired and not to last forever, this is why the oldest dated scrolls you can find are dated hundreds or thousands of years after they were originally written. So how can you compare a tampered book with the Qur'an when a pillar of Iman is to believe that the Qur'an is the last and final Book of Allah and that it is protected by Allah and will not be changed? This is a bad comparison, which is the root of your dodgy belief in what Islam is. There is no contradiction between the Qur'an and the Bible, because the Qur'an says that the Torah and Gospel have been tampered with and changed by men, so this is an unequal comparison.

>But if we are to be
>consistant with the teachings of
>the Qur'an Jesus is placed
>higher than just a prophet.

This is not what the Qur'an says.

4:171
O People of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah Isa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.

Ruh-ullah: According to the early religious scholars from among the Companions of the Prophet (saws) and their students and the Mujahidun, there is a rule to distinguish between the two nouns in the genitive construction:
a) When one of the two nouns is Allah, and the other is a person or a thing, e.g. Allah's House (Bait-ullah); Allah's Messenger (Rasul-ullah); Allah's slave ('Abdullah); Allah's spirit (Ruh-ullah), the rule for the above words is that the second noun, e.g. house, messenger, slave, spirit is created by Allah and is honourable in His Sight, and similarly, Allah's spirit may be understood as the spirit of Allah, in fact it is a soul created by Allah, i.e. Isa. And it was His Word: "Be!" - and he was. (i.e. Isa was created like Adam).
b) But when one of the two is Allah and the second is neither a person nor a thing, then it is not a created thing but is a quality of Allah e.g. Allah's Knowledge ('Ilm-ullah); Allah's Life (Hayat-ullah); Allah's Statement (Kalam-ullah); Allah's Self (Dhat-ullah).

5
The Messiah (Isa), son of Maryam, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother (Maryam) was a Siddiqah (i.e. she believed in the Words of Allah and His Books). They both used to eat food (as any other human being, while Allah does not eat). Look how We made the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to them; yet look how they are deluded away (from the truth).

19:30
He (Isa) said: "Verily I am a slave of Allah, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet"

>He was sinless(Sura 3:46) Muhammed
>sinned and needed forgiveness(Sura 40:55
>and 42:5)

3:46
"He will speak to the people in the cradle and in manhood, and he will be one of the righteous."

This verse does not say Isa (as) was sinless.

Regarding the subject of the Prophets committing sins, I will show you what the Scholars of Islam say about this:

“The ummah (Muslim nation) is agreed that the Messengers are infallible in carrying out their mission – they do not forget anything that Allaah has revealed to them except with regard to matters that have been abrogated. They are also infallible in conveying the Message – they do not conceal anything that Allaah has revealed to them, for that would be a betrayal and it is impossible to imagine that they could do such a thing. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): `O Messenger! Proclaim (the Message) which has been sent down to you from your Lord. And if you do not ,then you have not conveyed His Message…' (al-Maa'idah 5:67). If anything is concealed or changed, then the punishment of Allaah will befall the one who is guilty of doing these things, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): `And if he (Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)) had forged a false saying concerning Us (Allaah), We surely would have seized him by his right hand (or with power and might), and then certainly should have cut off his life artery (aorta).' (al-Haqqah 69:44-46). One aspect of infallibility is that they (the Prophets) do not forget anything of that which Allaah has revealed to them, and thus no part of the revelation is lost.”

(Al-rusul wa'l-risaalaat (The Messengers and their missions), `Omar al-Ashqar, p. 97)

`Omar al-Ashqar also said (op. cit., p.102): “The Prophets and Messengers may also strive to find the right judgement in the situations with which they are faced, and they judge according to what they themselves see and hear – they do not have knowledge of the Unseen. They may make an incorrect judgement, as happened to the Prophet of Allaah Dawood (David), who failed to do so, and Allaah helped his son Sulaymaan (Solomon) to come up with the right answer in that particular case. Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) reported that he heard the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: `There were two women, each of whom had a son. A wolf came and carried off the son of one of them, who said to the other, “The wolf has taken your son.” The other said, “No, he took your son.” They came to Dawood to ask him to judge between them, and he ruled in favour of the older woman. Then they went to Sulaymaan the son of Dawood and told him what had happened. He said, “Bring a knife and divide the child between them.” The younger woman said, “Do not do that, may Allaah have mercy on you! He is her son.” So Sulaymaan ruled in favour of the younger woman.' (Reported by al-Bukhaari).

“The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) explained this story: Umm Salamah, the wife of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) narrated that he heard a dispute going on at the door of his apartment, so he went out and told them: `I am no more than a human being. Disputing parties may come to me, and one of you may be more eloquent and persuasive than the other, so I may think that he is telling the truth and rule in favour of him. Whoever has a judgement in favour of him to the detriment of a fellow-Muslim's rights, this is a piece of the Fire – let him take it or leave it.'”

When it comes to the idea of the Prophets committing major sins (kabaa'ir), Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said (in al-Fataawaa, 4/319): “…The belief that the Prophets are free of major sins, but not of minor sins, is the opinion of the majority of Islamic scholars and of all (Muslim) groups… It is the opinion of most mufassireen (commentators on the Qur'an), scholars of hadeeth and fuqaha' (jurists).”

With regard to whether it is possible for the Prophets to commit minor sins, in Lawaami' al-Anwaar al-Bahiyyah (2/214), al-Safaareeni quoted from Ibn Hamdaan who said in Nihaayat al-Mubtadi'een: “They are infallible in conveying the commands and message of Allaah, but they are not infallible in any other regard. They may make mistakes, forget things, or commit minor sins – according to the most well-known opinion (of the scholars) – but they will not be approved for these mistakes.”

The majority of scholars take the following as evidence to support their claim that the Prophets are not free from minor sins:

1. Adam's sin in eating from the tree from which Allaah had forbidden him to eat. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And (remember) when We said to the angels, `Prostrate yourselves to Adam.' They prostrated (all) except Iblees (Satan), who refused. Then We said, `O Adam! Verily, this is an enemy to you and to your wife. So let him not get you both out of Paradise, so that you be distressed in misery. Verily, you have (a promise from Us) that you will never be hungry therein nor naked. And you (will) suffer not from thirst therein nor from the sun's heat. Then Shaytaan whispered to him, saying: `O Adam! Shall I lead you to the Tree of Eternity and to a kingdom that shall never waste away?' Then they both ate of the tree, and so their private parts appeared to them, and they began to stick on themselves leaves from Paradise for their covering. Thus did Adam disobey his Lord, so he went astray.” (Ta-Ha 20:116-121)
2. When Nooh prayed for his kaafir son, Allaah rebuked him for doing so, and taught him that this person was not a member of his family, and that this prayer was not a righteous deed on his part. So Nooh sought forgiveness from his Lord, repented and returned to Allaah: “Nooh said: `O my Lord! I seek refuge with You from asking You that of which I have no knowledge. And unless You forgive me and have Mercy on me, I would indeed be one of the losers.'” (Hood 11:47 – interpretation of the meaning).
3. When Dawood realized that he had been too quick to judge, without listening to what the second disputant had to say, he hastened to repent: “… and he sought Forgiveness of his Lord, and he fell down prostrate and turned (to Allaah) in repentance.” (Saad 38:24 – interpretation of the meaning).

Everyone, even the Prophets, is in need of the forgiveness of Allaah. Allaah has blessed His Prophets by forgiving their sins, and He has blessed our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) as He said (interpretation of the meaning): “That Allaah may forgive you your sins of the past and the future, and complete His favour upon you, and guide you on the Straight Path.” (al-Fath 48:2)
4. Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said, in al-Fataawaa 10/296, “Concerning the issue of forgiveness of the Prophets' sins: Allaah, may He be exalted, does not speak of any Prophet in the Qur'aan, except He also mentions repentance and seeking forgiveness. For example, Adam and his wife said: `Our Lord! We have wronged ourselves. If You forgive us not, and bestow not upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be of the losers.” (al-A'raaf 7:23 – interpretation of the meaning). Nooh said: “O my Lord! I seek refuge with You from asking You that of which I have no knowledge. And unless You forgive me and have Mercy on me, I would indeed be one of the losers.'” . Ibraaheem said: “Our Lord! Forgive me and my parents, and (all) the Believers on the Day when the reckoning will be established.” (Ibraaheem 14:41 – interpretation of the meaning) and “… You are our wali (Protector), so forgive us and have Mercy on us, for You are the Best of those who forgive. And ordain for us good in this world, and in the Hereafter. Certainly we have turned unto You…” (al-A'raaf 7:155-156 – interpretation of the meaning). Moosa said: `…You are our wali (Protector), so forgive us and have Mercy on us, for You are the Best of those who forgive.' (al-A'raaf 7:155 – interpretation of the meaning). Then he (Ibn Taymiyah, may Allaah have mercy on him) gave further examples, but what we have mentioned here is sufficient. And Allaah knows best.

>Jesus did Miracles
>( Sura 3:49) Muhammed did
>not (sura 13:8 also 6:37;6:109;17:59)

The Qur'an states that all of the Prophets (as) did miracles.

4 8 And indeed We have sent Messengers before you (O Muhammad saws): of some of them We have related to you their story. And of some We have not related to you their story, and it was not given to any Messenger that he should bring a sign (miracle) except by the Leave of Allah. But, when comes the Commandment of Allah, the matter will be decided with truth, and the followers of falsehood will then be lost.

In regards to the ayat you cited as evidence against Muhammad (saws) not doing miracles, you are misinterpreting these ayat. Allah is explaining how the hypocrite will say that if only Allah were to send him/her a sign that he/she would believe, but even after signs are given to these people they still don't believe. Allah says the same thing about Musa (as) and the Children of Israel when they asked for a sign.

About 17:59, this ayah is speaking about Saalih (as) not Muhammad (saws) and this is an example of a sign sent to the people of Thamud which was rejected by them because they were hypocrites.

Also, I can go into detail if you need me to about the miracles that Muhammad (saws) performed by Allah's permission, as there are many describe in Ahadith.

>Jesus was the Messiah (sura 3:45;4:157,171)Muhammed
>did not.

This does not place Isa (as) above Muhammad (saws). Islam does not teach that Isa (as) was the savior of mankind or anything like the the definition of Messiah is used for in Christianity, rather he was just a Prophet and warner to the Jews.

>Jesus went to
>heavan (Sura 4:157) however sura
>199:33 says he died and
>would be ressurected.

There is no Surah 199, but I think you meant 19:33. Once again because there is no Tafseer of the verse you can mistake this ayah as saying Isa (as) died.

19:33 "And Salam (peace) be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!"

Isa (as) has not died yet, and this is a reason he will return before the Day of Judgement because everyone must taste death. The day Isa (as) will die is after he returns and kills the Dajjal and abolishes the Jiziyah, etc. He will live and then die like every human being. The day he shall be raised alive is the Day everyone will be raised alive, i.e. the Day of Judgement.

>If anything the Qua'ran might as
>well claim that he is
>God they gave him everything
>else.

No comment, I've explained all of your misunderstandings about the Islamic view of Isa (as) using the Qur'an.

>Another area of confusion is the
>unity of God. Although Muslims
>attack the Trinty( a concept
>most Muslims do not understand
>or just cannot express correctly).

Muslims do understand Trinity and we also understand Paganism. When the Muslims took refuge in Abyssinia the Pagan Arabs chased after them and told the Christian King Negus (who later accepted Islam) that they are just misunderstood by the Muslims and that they don't worship the idols, rather they use the idols to get to Allah. This is the result of the confusion of paganism, a lack of understanding of what they are doing themselves! The "unity of Allah" or Tahweed has been explained in great detail by the Scholars of Islam who used the Qur'an and Sunnah not their own philosophical opinion and I can give you more information later if you'd like, insha' Allah.

>But Muslims allow for somethig
>besides Allah to be eternal
>expression of God without being
>numerically identical to him the
>Qur'an. Muslim scholars along with
>the Qua'ran have made distintions
>within Gods unity. Sura 85:21-22
>"Nay this is a Glorious
>Qur'an in a Tablet Preserved.
>The Qur'an is uncreated and
>identical to the mind of
>God. Thus why can't Christ
>be the eternal "expression of
>Divine Will?

Those ayat are saying that the Qur'an is being preserved by the Preserver. How is the thing being preserved equated with the One Who is Preserving it? Isa (as) is a Word of Allah. Allah simply says "Be!" and it is.

>PS If you want to comment
>on this please do so
>with gentleness and respect. It
>might take me time to
>respond because I donnot have
>a computer of my own
>and please forgive any errors
>in grammer.

I have a word of advice for you if you are sincerely seeking true knowledge about Islam. Do not rely on an English translation/interpretation of the Qur'an. I suggest you read Tafseer Ibn Kathir, which has been translated into English and is 10 Volumes. You can purchase it at http://www.dar-us-salam.com

May Allah forgive me for any mistakes I have made.
Yusuf

i am not muslim, but i have recently spoken with a scholar on the religion, and he agrees that the prophets were not sinless.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NYU

>i am not muslim, but i
>have recently spoken with a
>scholar on the religion, and
>he agrees that the prophets
>were not sinless.

Whom might this scholar be?
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"The one whose faith is perfect is afflicted by the whisperer(shaytaan). The thief does not bother entering a ruined house."-(al-Jawahir al-Hisan)

Although you have done a great job on your search through the Qur'an I really do not buy the whole aurgument of the major and minor sins of the Muhammed. There are many cases of questions I have to raise about the Moral Perfections of Muhammed. First Polygamy, sura 4:3 a man may have four wives. In Judeo Christianity tradition, polygamy is considered morally wrong. Although God permitted it, along with other human fralities and sins, he never approved it. But the Qur'an clearly santions polygamy saying a man can have 4 wives. Then Muhammed recieved revelation from Allah that a man should have no more than four wives in a book titled The Propher of Islam as the Idea Husband admitted that Muhammed had fifteen wives.
Muslims like to say that God made an exception for the prophet and no one else sura 33:50 say : Prophet! We have Made lawful to thee Thy wives...;And many believing women Who dedicate her soul To the prohet if the Prophet Wishes to wed her;"but then adds this is only for thee, and not For the Believers".(What a moral Giant)
In addition, Muhammed claimed a divine exemption to another law giving each wife her conjugal rights"justly". Husbands were to observe a fixed rotation among their wives. Muhammed insist that God told him that he could have whomever he wanted when he wanted them: thou mayest defer(the turn of)any of them: that thou pleases, and thou mayest recieve Any thou pleasest. If thats not a major sin what is beating of women?
Wait a minute we have that also in the Qur'an. Sura 4:34 " Men are in charge of women because Allah hath made the one excel the other...As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them"(Pickethall translation) Yusef Ali tries to say the verse says lightly but this word does not appear in Arabic.
On one occasion Muhammed Husayn Haykal said flat out the propher err when he frowned in the face of (the blind beggar)ibn Umm Maktum and sent him away. Then goes on to say in his book The Life of Muhammed when prominent Jew, Ka'lb Ibn Al-Asharf, had composed a satirical poem about the prophet, he asked who will deliver ne from Ka'b. Immediatly four persons volunteered and came back with his head.
The Qur'an itself Muhammed broke promises. He got a revelation to break a long standing pledge to avoid killing during the sacred month of pilgrimage: They ask thee Concerning fighting In the Prohibited Month. Say: Fighting therin is a grave (Offense):But graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access To the path of God"(Sura 2:217) Yeah right.
Then finally every Muslim always says that the Arabic Qur'an is the real deal.(Personally I think they say this because most people do not know Arabic but that is just my opinion) but lets see about that. According to Arthur Jeffry in his technical and scholary volume, The Foreing Vocabulary of the Qur'an, ably demonstrates that "not only the greater part of the religious vocabulary,but also most of the cultural vocabulary of the Qur'an is of non Arabic origin. Some of the vocabulary sources include Abyssinian,Persian,Greek, Syriac, Hebrew, and Coptic. St. Clair-Tisdall, in The sources of Islam also reveals direct dependence of certain stories of Qur'an from the Old Testament on the Jewish Talmuld. This can be seen in the story of cain and abel, Abraham and the idols and even the Christian Apocrypha can be seen in the stories of seven sleepers and the miracles of Jesus. There is much more I could say but I will save it for later because I am tired of typing.

------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

Clearly you are a hypocrite. In your first post you ask those who will respond to you to be respectful, and I was respectful. So in your second post you insult Muhammad (saws) and rant on about questioning his morality. It is interesting that I refuted every single false thing you said relating to the Islamic view of Jesus (as), and in your second post you had nothing to say in response. I can do the same for your second post if you'd like, and you'll probably change the topic to another one of misunderstanding like jihad once I explain it all.

*sigh*

It is funny that polygamy is such a huge issue for you. According to anthropologists, 70% of the world practices polygamy officially. I say officially because there are many people in USA who are not really practicing monogamy, rather they are married to one woman and have several others on the side. i.e. adultery.

It is natural for the man to have the desire to have more than one woman. Islam simply provides the proper and legal way to go about doing it.

As far as the other "holes" you speak about, they are only the result of you studying Islam through non-Muslim writings.

There is no hypocrisy at all in this. You want me to respond to your verses fine no problem. First of all your aurguments are self refuting. In sura 3:46 it declares that Jesus was rightous. This implies that he was without sin because no man can be rightous in the eyes of God because God is the only one who is rightous. Let me explain, since there is no way to atone for ones sins in Islam one must work or perform deeds inorder to reach heaven. But since all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God then the only way to be considered rightous is to either be without sin or saved by grace which then makes the person justified in Gods eyes. This is what Christianity teaches is that you can not work your way into heaven. In other words you cannot live the Christian life it is Christ who lives it for or through you. The only difference between a Chritian and anybody else is that we are forgiven. So in the Qur'an when Muhammed asks for forgiveness of his sins whether Major or Minor he still sinned(Unrightous). While Christ is considered rightous(sinless).
The reason I went on to explain the Prophets moral life was to show you that the prophet did commit major sins such as murder ; and just because it is not Muslim writings does mean that it is inaccurate. Also just because polygamy is practiced by so many people does not make to OK. A large majority of people smoke, drink, do drugs, and the majority of people denounce Allah does that make them rightous think about it.

------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

>199:33 says he died and
>would be ressurected.
>If anything the Qua'ran might as
>well claim that he is
>God they gave him everything
>else.
>
The fact that you pointed out a Sura that doesnt exist leads me to think that you havent really read the Quran yourself. I have been in discussins with Christians before about similiar things. The "Jesus" issue is the main difference between Islam and Christianity. The brother is right by telling you not to just look at the english translation of the Quran. There are a few different english translations anyway. You will find different verbage in different translations that will lead you flag problems with Islam and the Quran. When you look for a problem in something you tend to find one. I challenge you to read the Quran from cover to cover with a clear mind and heart. Just do it and see what happens. Dont read it to find fault in Islam and support your beliefs just read it. As a matter of Fact, I challenge you to study Islam with a clear heart and mind.

Remember knowing about God is one thing. Understanding God is completely different. If you dont understand God how can you believe in him, do what pleases him, stay away from what displeases him and gain God's love and not his wrath?

I suggest you study the Quran and the Bible and seek to find out about God. Who is he? Who he is not?

Dont think about your family or what youve been taught ever before. If you go to read the Bible keep in mind there are books that were taken out and it has been tampered with by mankind big time. While the Quran has only been translated into a respective language from Arabic.

I also advise you to use logic not emotion and see what happens.

Take care

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenship
into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword.

It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind.
And w

I have studied the Qur'an as much as anyone and I tell this book just cannot stand up to critism like the bible has endured. For instance take the story of Simon Greenleaf one of the great minds in American legal history. He not only taught law at Harvard University and produced the standard three volume study of lagal services still used to teach lawyers the rules of legal evidence.
When challenge to apply these rules to the New Testament documents, Greenleaf produced (The Testament of the Evangelist)
His conclusion was that every document, apparently ancient, coming from the proper repository or custody, and bearing on its face no evidence of forgery, the law presumes to be gunuine, and doevolves on the opposing the party the burden of proveing to be otherwise.
In other words this professor states that in a court of law the authencity of New Testament account claiming that there is no forgery and are credited due to the testimony of eye witnesses. Amem

------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

>I have studied the Qur'an as
>much as anyone

You are Hafiz-ul-Qur'an? You have memorized the entire Qur'an along with the Tafsir? Of course not. I invite you to open your eyes to reality and come to the conclusion that reading a few books by non-Muslims who write about Islam with a negative intent to mislead people is not studying the Qur'an, especially not "as much as anyone."

>For
>instance take the story of
>Simon Greenleaf one of the
>great minds in American legal
>history. He not only taught
>law at Harvard University and
>produced the standard three volume
>study of lagal services still
>used to teach lawyers the
>rules of legal evidence.
> When
>challenge to apply these rules
>to the New Testament documents,
>Greenleaf produced (The Testament
>of the Evangelist)
>His conclusion was that every document,
>apparently ancient, coming from the
>proper repository or custody, and
>bearing on its face no
>evidence of forgery, the law
>presumes to be gunuine, and
>doevolves on the opposing the
>party the burden of proveing
>to be otherwise.
> In
>other words this professor states
>that in a court of
>law the authencity of New
>Testament account claiming that there
>is no forgery and are
>credited due to the testimony
>of eye witnesses. Amem

Huh? Are you serious?? You actually think this will convince anyone or hold as weight to be the truth? Get real.

>I have to give you credit
>on your respone but I
>really do not believe that
>the Qur'an can be considerd
>an a reliable source in
>this case.

So heres som info from the Bible:


"If you love me, keep my commandments. And I
will pray the Father, and He shall give you another
Comforter (Saviour), that he may abide with you
forever". (Jn. 14:15,16).

These things have I spoken unto you being yet
present with you. But the Comforter who is the Holy
Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name (i.e. to
fulfill the same mission), he shall teach you all
things and bring all things to your rememberance,
whatsoever I have said unto you". (Jn 14:25,26).

"And
now I have told you before it has come to pass that
when it is come to pass, ye might believe. Hereafter I
will not talk much with you: for the Prince of this
world cometh and hath nothing in me".(Jn 14:29,30).

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto
you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth, which
proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me.
And ye also shall bear witness because ye have been
with me from the beginning". (Jn. 15:26,27)

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is expedient
for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the
Comforter will not come to you: but if I depart, I
will send him unto you". (Jn. 1 ).

These announcements of Jesus clearly imply that
another comforter or Saviour was to come AFTER his
departure. Christians believe Holy Ghost was there already with
Jesus] This Comforter was to come AFTER
Jesus. So explain this please. Here is more info on the Comforter:
He will be the Prince of the world
(Rahmatul-Lil-Aalameen i.e. Mercy unto all the worlds)
and The Spirit of Truth (As-Saadiq, The Truthful). This is also the name of Muhamed (saws) Sadiq and Ahmed the trusted and the truthful. He was given these titles far before he received prophethood. He came with the Quran.

So who is the comforter ?


Also:

"…The first
of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord
our God is ONE Lord". (Mk. 12:29). "Thou shall worship
the Lord thy God and Him ONLY shall thy serve". (Mat.
4:10).

"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good?
None is good save one, that is, God". (Lk. 18:19).

"But Jesus said unto
them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own
country, and among his own kin, and in his own house".
(Mk. 6:4).

Praying to God, Jesus said, "And this is life eternal
that they might know Thee the ONLY true God, and Jesus
Christ whom Thou has sent". (Jn. 17:3).

"For I have
given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and
they have received them, and have known surely that I
came out from thee, and they have believed that Thou
didst send me". (Jn. 17:8).

"Verily verily I say unto
you, the servant (the slave in R.S.V. footnote) is not
greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater
than he that sent him". (Jn 13:16).

So please explain the Worship of Jesus and the beleif that he is God (Allah).

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenship
into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword.

It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind.
And w

The passage you have selected tells you (Jn. 14: 26)
second sentence. "The Comforter Which is the Holy Spirit"
The Third "Person" of the Triune God.

The passages you chose don't refer to Muhammad.
Imma present more info on this subject on Monday. Sorry for the delay.



Why worship Jesus? Well he presents Himself as God
Matt 8 : 2 He Accepts Worship, and who are we to worship (see Exodus 20: 1-4)
"and behold there came a leper and worshipped him..."
Matt 28: 17 "When they saw him they worshipped him but some doubted"

John 14: 1 (Jesus is speaking) Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God,believe also in me.

He presents Himself equal to God the Father and God the Holy Spirit
John 8: 58 "Verily Verily I say to you before Abraham was I AM."
This is in direct relation to Exodus 3: 14 And God (The Father) said unto Moses I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath Sent me unto you."

Matt. 28: 19 Jesus is speaking here "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit.

John 14: 6-7 "Jesus said I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him."

Also Pre-Incarnated Christ revealed Himself in the Old Testament, as The Angel of YHWH or The Angel of the Lord.
Joshua 5: 13-15 in direct reference to Exodus 3: 2-5
The Man Jacob wrestle with is the Pre-Incarnated Christ.. Genisis 32: 24-30 That's why Jacob's name was changed to Israel
Isra =wrestle & El = God. Also notice the 29th verse in this passage: " And Jacob asked him, and said tell me, I pray thee thy name."

To explain Mark 10: 18 Jesus was explianing to the rich guy, is that How could he (Jesus) be a good teacher if he was not What He claimed to be? Which is God. If Jesus wasn't God in the Flesh then he would not be a good teacher he then would be a false one and committer of Blasphemies. So He wants the rich guy to Call Him (Jesus) what he is....God.

>>I have to give you credit
>>on your respone but I
>>really do not believe that
>>the Qur'an can be considerd
>>an a reliable source in
>>this case.
>
>So heres som info from the
>Bible:
>
>
>"If you love me, keep my
>commandments. And I
>will pray the Father, and He
>shall give you another
>Comforter (Saviour), that he may abide
>with you
>forever". (Jn. 14:15,16).

Ans:Good question but there is absolutely no grounds for concluding the Helper here is Muhammed. First of all,of all the 5,366 Greek manuscripts of the NT, not a single manuscript contain the perictytos("praised one").

Second, Jesus referred to "the Helper, the Holy Spirit,whom the father sends"(John 14:26) Thrid, the "Helper"was given to His disciples("you,"v16),but Muhammed was not. Forth the helper was to abide with them forever(v16), but Muhammed has been dead for 13 centuries. Fifth,Jesus said to his disciples,"You know Him" (the helper) but they did not know Muhammed. Sixth Jesus said the Helper will be in you(v17). In no sense was Muhammed "in" Jesus apostles. Seventh our Lord affirmed the "Helper would be sent in my name"(Jn14:26) But no Muslim believe Muhammed was sent in Jesus name. Eight the Helper Jesus would send would not speak on his own authority"(Jn16:13) whearas Muhammed constantly stantly testifies to himself in the Qur'an(sura 33:40).Ninth, the Helper would glorify Jesus(Jn 16:14). Finally Jesus asserted that the helper would not come in many days(Act 1:5) whereas Muhammed did not come for 600 years.
>Also:
>
>"…The first
>of all the commandments is, Hear,
>O Israel; The Lord
>our God is ONE Lord". (Mk.
>12:29). "Thou shall worship
>the Lord thy God and Him
>ONLY shall thy serve".

That is correct this is called the Hebrew Shema the Lord is one and no christian would disagree with you. But the Bible recognizes a plurality of the persons within God.
>
"And Jesus said unto him, Why
>callest thou me good?
>None is good save one, that
>is, God". (Lk. 18:19)

Ans: Jesus did not deny he was God to the young ruler, He was examining the implications of what he(young ruler) was saying. In effect he was saying, so you realize what you are saying when you call me good? Are you saying I am God.
>

>
>

------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

GOOD INFO ----- Clears all of the confusion and hearsay.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenship
into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword.

It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind.
And w

there are numerous gospels beyond those included in the bible, all with various messages. personally i've done a lot of research on gnostic gospels and specifically the Gospel of Thomas, the debate rages on as to whether it was gnostic or not, but the catholic church has banned it etc.

but i've heard various stories on jesus family, one is that he actually had a twin named judas thomas. whether or not this guy was his twin, he is mentioned in matthew. but also judas is an aramaic word for twin, thomas i believe also translates to twin, but i forget in what language.

the point is that various things were been written about jesus personal life written about jesus life in the 100 years after his death, and who the fuck really knows what happened?

phil

-----------------------------
----

"fo showa!!" - theo huxtable,
upon being asked if he will
have a girlfriend when he
moves out

jesus did have two brothers and four sisters, and his brothers names are mentioned int he bible. as for the time that is not mentioned in the bible there are a couple explanations. firlsty, since the source had beeen translated so many times, it is pssible that parts have been left out, or omitted by the church for what they saw as unnecessary or detrimenal (but probably not) to the image of jesus. also, since nearly 100AD, preists in Kashmir have contended thatjesus came there and studied hindu scriptures and healing methods, and some int he area still worship jesus as aanother deity.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NYU

no one knows what he did for those 18 years.

Shit happens

i mean, does he have like great grand (x100) kids floating around?

this is why nun of the sons of prop muhammed survived

"everything that we could be,
is blocked by what we are."
- okp Fuzzymath

i just want chu to know
how i feel
how i feel

Respect is due to all for at least having some form of spirituality within, but we must learn to read. When I say read I mean absorb/take in/ and mostly understand. I am notfamiliar with the Q'oruan?{kor'an} so I cant comment on that. But the Bible is simply an inspired reference or chronicle that was provided for mankind by God through men.
There are 66 true books of the Bible, and we must reference them all to have true understanding. As far as weddings and family and Jesus....... check this out.
Jesus is not the only child of Mary, just the only one by means of GOD.He had at least 4 other siblings, there are scriptures that point to this. Jesus is the son of GOD not GOD.

--John 3:16 says"for he loved the world so much that he(GOD)gave his only begotten son".-- Jesus is the only creation totally created by God, Jesus became the "masterworker". GOD being architect and Jesus being contractor. Not a trinity!!!! What is the point of God killing himself? Who is bad enough to resurrect GOD!!!! GOD is almighty, all powerful, why hide behind this trinity. GOD is not a Skitszofrenic.

--There are a number of mary's referenced in the bible, make sure you got the right one. There's Mary(mom) & Mary(lazarus sister)
& Mary Magdalene & whoever else knows. The names MARTHA and MARY were mad common back then.---

---Jesus was a prophet but also much more. A messiah to provide us with the means to atone for our sins so to speak.

Its deep yall... so if ya read it, read it thouroughly






WWW.ALLBEATZ.COM comin soon.................

SPOT FOR ALL THE BEATHEADZ

> Respect is due to
>all for at least having
>some form of spirituality within,
>but we must learn to
>read.

Aren't we all sons and daughters of God. We give life and some of us unfortunately take it away. Jesus also said that which I do you also can do (paraphase). I believe Jesus understood, followed, and taught the teachings of God. God has asked us all to do the same but most are not willing to make the sacrifice. Some do like Mother Teresa, Dr. King, Malcolm X, Hariette Tubman, Nat Turner and many many more. Why is it that Jesus is worshipped globally? Is it because it's sactioned by those in leadership. Those who controlled the economy, wealth and can send their missionaries around the world or is it because Jesus is the true risen Savior?

>Why is it
>that Jesus is worshipped globally?
> Is it because it's
>sactioned by those in leadership.
> Those who controlled the
>economy, wealth and can send
>their missionaries around the world
>or is it because Jesus
>is the true risen Savior?
>

There are so many different sects of Christianity and some don't even recognize Jesus (peace be upon him) as God or as the son of God. Also, Christianity is declining slowly and Islam is the fastest growing religion globally, so using the reasoning you did at the end.. this makes Jesus (pbuh) not the "true risen Savior."

>>Why is it
>>that Jesus is worshipped globally?
>> Is it because it's
>>sactioned by those in leadership.
>> Those who controlled the
>>economy, wealth and can send
>>their missionaries around the world
>>or is it because Jesus
>>is the true risen Savior?
>>
>
>There are so many different sects
>of Christianity and some don't
>even recognize Jesus (peace be
>upon him) as God or
>as the son of God.
>Also, Christianity is declining slowly
>and Islam is the fastest
>growing religion globally, so using
>the reasoning you did at
>the end.. this makes Jesus
>(pbuh) not the "true risen
>Savior."


I once was blind, but now I see...OKAYPlayer.com.

I was not reasoning in my previous post...my comment was an open question. Sorry for the confusion.


I once was blind, but now I see...OKAYPlayer.com.

Sorry the concept of the trinity seems to be in doubt here but the bible does teach clearly. First what is the trinty? 1st there is only one God (Duet 6:4 the Hebrew Shema) God the father is God(Matt ), Jesus is God (John 8:58),the holy sprit is God(Act 5:3-4).
The orthodox view of the trinty is that in the very nature of God exist three person (not like tom,mary, and jane) but three personally distinct ways of identifying each person in the Godhead.
Most people try to use the aurgument of 1+1+1=3 but the trinity is 1*1*1=1. This is why God can love the Son and the spirit that flows between them is the Holy Spirit. And no God did not kill himself Christ died for our sins.
Also just because Christ is labeled the Son of God does not in anyway suggests that Christ was somehow created read Hebrew 1-8 where God the father is calling Jesus God.
Remember one God(in nature or essence) revealed in three persons. Boy I am tired of typing but feel free to make comments because I know it is confusing. Amen

------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

>just because Christ is labeled
>the Son of God does
>not in anyway suggests that
>Christ was somehow created read
>Hebrew 1-8 where God the
>father is calling Jesus God.
>
>
I would have to disagree. Through man's arrogance, many translations of the bible tend to remove GOD's name. Some spots they remove Jesus name using only A title...which we use today-LORD or God. These two terms only Denote extreme reverence. If I were a personal friend of yours, how would you feel if I only refered to you as Woman or Man when addressing you. The ultimate respect is to use someones name. That is their identity, their unique feature to those who associate with them. Where they chose to omit GOD's name they used GOD. CHeck this tho....They distinguish this by capitalizing all the letters within(GOD). A lot of people who belive in the trinity use a scripture in the book of acts that says "and the son was a God." If you know what I'm talking about, read it again and notice that the writter wrote God in two different ways! GOD and God, guess who's who!

And if yall dont know GOD's name, go watch Indiana Jones:The Last Crusade. ------Psalm 81:18
Read Jill Scotts cd insert liner notes.
Why do rasta's praise JAH!
Why do avid church goers say HALLELUJAH!-----peep JAH

If GOD did not want us to use his name he would not have had the hebrew YHWH or YAHWEH written down.

PEACE
MR. DANIELS

I just wanna innovate and stimulate minds...-COMMON
COOOOOMMMON....thats my muufu**a - Common sense

how would you feel if I
only refered to you as
Woman or Man when addressing
you.

Woman or Man do these terms denote reverence such as the Title Lord, or God. Plus dont people address one another generally speaking...example What's up man, Naw man, MAN what are you doing?



The ultimate respect is
to use someones name.

By who's standard. Using someones' name without the title becomes an informal address. The hebrew scholars that wrote the that translated and wrote the Old Testament deemed God the Father's name to Holy to speak. When Othrodox Hebrew recite the Shema they replace God (YHWH) with Lord (Adonai)

Shema Yisreal adonai elohenu adonai ehchad! Deut. 6: 4
Translated- Hear O Isreal the Lord our Lord is One Deut. 6: 4

Notice that "Ehchad" - is used throughout Old Testament to describe a complex Oneness. Example Two parts create one day.


CHeck this tho....They
distinguish this by capitalizing all
the letters within(GOD).

Yep all caps shows that YHWH, YEHWEH, ("E's" are guesses to what should be used in that place. We really have no clue if "E's" initally went there) YHWH on the other hand is the actual term written on Historical manuscripts.


A lot
of people who belive in
the trinity use a scripture
in the book of acts
that says "and the son
was a God."

It's far more Scripture that complies with Acts 5: 31

Here they are:

The Father is God
Matt. 6: 9 & 6 : 32 Romans 1: 7
Heb. 12: 9 John 5: 45
John 4 : 23 1 Cor. 1: 3
Romans 15: 6 2 Cor. 8: 6
1John 2: 22

The Son is God
Matt. 8: 2 (Jesus accepted worship)
Matt. 14: 33 Eph. 5: 28-33
Matt. 15: 25 Rev. 21: 2
Matt. 20: 20 John 20: 28
Matt. 28: 17 Titus 2: 13
Mark. 5: 6 John 8: 58
Mark. 14: 61 Exodus 3: 14

The Holy Spirit is God
Gen 1: 2 Acts 5: 3-4
Psalms 139: 7-12 1John 2: 27
John 3: 5-6 1Cor. 2: 10-11
Romans 8: 9-17 John 16: 7

If you
know what I'm talking about,
read it again and notice
that the writter wrote God
in two different ways!
GOD and God, guess who's
who!

The Hebrew text can note the differene. All caps Then in hebrew
Yode- Ha- Veh - Ha (this is how it sounds) YHWH is the spelling
(sorry i cant show you what the script looks like on this thread

And if yall dont know GOD's
name, go watch Indiana Jones:The
Last Crusade. ------Psalm 81:18

He spelled Jehovah (which is another try at tranlating of YHWH) in greek if im not mistaken? In greek Jesus is Iesus. In Herbrew Iesus is Yeshua. Greek translates Hebrew "Y" to "I" english translates greeks "I" to "J's"

There is no 18th verse in psalm 81. Psalm 81 ends at 16


>Why do avid church goers say
>HALLELUJAH!-----peep JAH

I'll give info on this later okay im gettin sleepy

Peace
yo we got the same signature b.
Hope to build wit u soon

If you miss one, you miss many, but if you reach one, you reach plenty. -me

I just wanna innovate, stimulate minds...travel the world and penetrate the times -common

The ghetto is mad hot, we steppin on flames -black thought