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Subject: "Free will vs predestination, God's omniscience..." This topic is locked.
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McDeezNuts
Member since Jun 03rd 2002
5663 posts
Tue Apr-01-03 06:18 AM

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"Free will vs predestination, God's omniscience..."


  

          

First, this may not belong in Activist, but I sure as hell didn't want to put it in General (for obvious reasons) and it fits nowhere else...

Anyway, so I was just musing about predestination vs. free will, and the belief (that some people have) that God is omniscient.

Disclaimer - this discussion will be of little or no interest to people who do not believe in some sort of divine being, so don't waste the time and space in here discussing God's existence... For the sake of this discussion, we are operating under the assumption that there IS a divine being, named God for convenience sake. Okay, there are three main statements, and then three questions about them.

A- God is omniscient
B- God knows the future before it happens
C- We have free will

I'm curious which of these you believe, and more importantly, which of the following statements are true?

1 - if A, then B?
2 - if B, then not C?
3 - if C, then not B, then not A?

Let me explain these questions in terms for those unfamiliar with philosophic logic:

1 - Does omniscience necessarily mean God knows the future?
2 - If God knows the future, can we possibly have free will? If He knows what will happen, aren't our choices already set?
3 - If we have free will and God doesn't know our choices (and therefore the future), can he be considered omniscient?

What do you think? Personally I believe in free will (although I do think there is evidence of divine intervention on earth) but I wonder if/how God can be all-knowing and all-powerful when we have free will? Somehow I want it both ways...

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
where are you getting these premises from?
Apr 01st 2003
1
I just made them up, it's not for an essay or anything.
Apr 01st 2003
2
      question things?
Apr 01st 2003
4
           Questioning is necessary for true faith and belief
Apr 01st 2003
5
           you're setting up parameters again.
Apr 01st 2003
7
           RE: you're setting up parameters again.
Apr 01st 2003
11
                LOL. dude. you're doing it again.
Apr 01st 2003
13
                     RE: LOL. dude. you're doing it again.
Apr 01st 2003
16
                     perhaps he "believed" in God.
Apr 01st 2003
18
                     LOL. I see what you're saying. But...
Apr 01st 2003
19
                          look.
Apr 01st 2003
21
           oh yeah.
Apr 01st 2003
10
                I definitely see what you're saying.
Apr 01st 2003
14
                     if i were you...
Apr 01st 2003
17
                          Cool, thanks.
Apr 01st 2003
20
           i don't agree w/ that either.
Apr 03rd 2003
61
Free Will vs Freedom
Apr 01st 2003
3
all are true
Apr 01st 2003
6
RE: all are true
Apr 01st 2003
8
      god doesn't hope
Apr 01st 2003
9
      example of one that is carnal minded
Apr 01st 2003
12
           how else will you know God?
Apr 01st 2003
15
                RE: how else will you know God?
Apr 01st 2003
22
                     huh?
Apr 01st 2003
23
      that's always been my conundrum...
Apr 01st 2003
24
           angels are different from men...
Apr 01st 2003
25
           RE: that's always been my conundrum...
Apr 02nd 2003
31
RE: Free will vs predestination, God's omniscience...
Apr 01st 2003
26
RE: Free will vs predestination, God's omniscience...
Apr 02nd 2003
30
      RE: Free will vs predestination, God's omniscience...
Apr 02nd 2003
32
      exactly
Apr 07th 2003
107
      RE: Free will vs predestination, God's omniscience...
Apr 02nd 2003
33
God predestines all. Man has no freewill.
Apr 01st 2003
27
here is some biblical support:
Apr 01st 2003
28
RE: here is some biblical support:
Apr 02nd 2003
34
      please be mindful of
Apr 02nd 2003
36
cool
Apr 02nd 2003
29
RE: cool
Apr 02nd 2003
39
      .
Apr 02nd 2003
40
           Is Evil really Evil?.....
Apr 02nd 2003
42
                RE: Is Evil really Evil?.....
Apr 02nd 2003
43
                RE: Is Evil really Evil?.....
Apr 02nd 2003
44
                RE: Is Evil really Evil?.....
Apr 03rd 2003
59
                     RE: Is Evil really Evil?.....
Apr 03rd 2003
63
                          RE: Is Evil really Evil?.....
Apr 04th 2003
72
                               YEAH!!!
Apr 04th 2003
76
                                    RE: YEAH!!!
Apr 04th 2003
78
                RE: Is Evil really Evil?.....
Apr 02nd 2003
49
                     RE: Is Evil really Evil?.....
Apr 03rd 2003
51
                          RE: Is Evil really Evil?.....
Apr 03rd 2003
53
                               RE: Is Evil really Evil?.....
Apr 03rd 2003
57
                                    RE: Is Evil really Evil?.....
Apr 03rd 2003
58
                                    RE: Is Evil really Evil?.....
Apr 03rd 2003
68
                                    RE: Is Evil really Evil?.....
Apr 03rd 2003
67
                                         RE: Is Evil really Evil?.....
Apr 04th 2003
71
                                              RE: Is Evil really Evil?.....
Apr 04th 2003
74
                                                   RE: Is Evil really Evil?.....
Apr 04th 2003
77
                                                        RE: Is Evil really Evil?.....
Apr 04th 2003
81
                                                             RE: Is Evil really Evil?.....
Apr 10th 2003
110
                                                                  RE: Is Evil really Evil?.....
Apr 10th 2003
112
                                                                       RE: Is Evil really Evil?.....
Apr 11th 2003
113
How did you utilize the "Hebrew" words like that in you
Apr 02nd 2003
41
In Yoruba...
Apr 02nd 2003
35
that's the closest to what i've believed
Apr 03rd 2003
62
      i know huh?
Apr 03rd 2003
70
RE: Free will vs predestination, God's omniscience...
Apr 02nd 2003
37
RE: Free will vs predestination, God's omniscience...
Apr 02nd 2003
45
      RE: Free will vs predestination, God's omniscience...
Apr 02nd 2003
46
      I use the word...
Apr 02nd 2003
50
      RE: Free will vs predestination, God's omniscience...
Apr 03rd 2003
55
           RE: Free will vs predestination, God's omniscience...
Apr 03rd 2003
64
linearity/constancy of time
Apr 02nd 2003
38
RE: Free will vs predestination, God's omniscience...
Apr 02nd 2003
47
RE: Free will vs predestination, God's omniscience...
Apr 02nd 2003
48
      NO! Damn, closed minded a bit, are we?
Apr 03rd 2003
52
           RE: NO! Damn, closed minded a bit, are we?
Apr 03rd 2003
54
                Didn't mean to jump to conclusions...
Apr 04th 2003
73
                     Question
Apr 05th 2003
84
                          RE: Question
Apr 07th 2003
98
                               RE: Question
Apr 07th 2003
104
other important scriptures/predestination
Apr 03rd 2003
56
i'll read the replies, but my 1st inclination
Apr 03rd 2003
60
Hey I didnt read the whole thread but......
Apr 03rd 2003
65
      The Best Response Thus Far
Apr 04th 2003
80
      RE: The Best Response Thus Far
Apr 04th 2003
82
           RE: The Best Response Thus Far
Apr 05th 2003
86
                ...
Apr 05th 2003
88
                     completely within the topic.......minus the big 3 view
Apr 06th 2003
90
                          RE: completely within the topic.......minus the big 3 v
Apr 06th 2003
91
                               RE: completely within the topic.......minus the big 3 v
Apr 07th 2003
106
      this is important
Apr 05th 2003
83
           RE: this is important
Apr 05th 2003
87
No answer but,
Apr 03rd 2003
66
God is omniscient NOT omnipotent...
Apr 03rd 2003
69
RE: God is omniscient NOT omnipotent...
Apr 04th 2003
75
RE: Free will vs predestination, God's omniscience...
Apr 04th 2003
79
God body..
Apr 05th 2003
85
The Universe is my Body, BUT
Apr 06th 2003
89
      RE: The Universe is my Body, BUT
Apr 06th 2003
92
There is no spoon
Apr 06th 2003
93
More on this
Apr 06th 2003
94
My perspective on free will...
Apr 06th 2003
95
RE: Free will vs predestination, God's omniscience...
Apr 06th 2003
96
participate if you want to...
Apr 07th 2003
97
actually, this was the disclaimer
Apr 07th 2003
99
this is good discussion material...
Apr 07th 2003
100
RE: this is good discussion material...
Apr 07th 2003
101
well...
Apr 07th 2003
103
      RE: well...
Apr 07th 2003
105
RE: this is good discussion material...
Apr 07th 2003
102
saleh's 2 cents
Apr 08th 2003
108
Archive please
Apr 10th 2003
109
My thoughts...
Apr 10th 2003
111

Utamaroho
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Tue Apr-01-03 06:29 AM

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1. "where are you getting these premises from?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i would advice searching there for specific definitions.

overall, it seems like an attempt to conceptualize abstract ideas about God that were either 1)undeveloped when written, and as such are under critique now for their lack of foundation or 2) an attempt to simply "talk" about concepts about a realm (being God) that above reproach by its very creation (if you believe in popular God concepts) and just a way of "us" trying to understand our place in a system. this is problematic since "we" are observing and discussing within an already created set of parameters about something that (by definition) exists OUTSIDE of those parameters. this makes the discussion pointless, or as my ancestors said of the greeks "full of empty talk and nothing more".

but fuck a god... i see Allah making his oh-so-predictable response in 5...4...3...2....

Red, Black, Green

  

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McDeezNuts
Member since Jun 03rd 2002
5663 posts
Tue Apr-01-03 06:41 AM

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2. "I just made them up, it's not for an essay or anything."
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

I just made the statements and questions up. I was thinking about the concepts of free will and predestination, and those were the first things to jump off in my mind as key points in the discussion.

>overall, it seems like an attempt to conceptualize abstract
>ideas about God that were either 1)undeveloped when written,
>and as such are under critique now for their lack of
>foundation or

I agree that the statements are abstract and undeveloped - but that's why I'm posting it here.

2) an attempt to simply "talk" about concepts
>about a realm (being God) that above reproach by its very
>creation (if you believe in popular God concepts) and just a
>way of "us" trying to understand our place in a system. this
>is problematic since "we" are observing and discussing
>within an already created set of parameters about something
>that (by definition) exists OUTSIDE of those parameters.
>this makes the discussion pointless, or as my ancestors said
>of the greeks "full of empty talk and nothing more".

Interesting point, I agree that it's somewhat futile to try to solve these questions, which are ultimately beyond our true understanding. But it's still something to think about - we will never understand our place in the universe, but that doesn't make it worthless to try, right? I wouldn't call this discussion pointless, since it provokes thought and causes us to question things if nothing else.

>but fuck a god... i see Allah making his oh-so-predictable
>response in 5...4...3...2....

We'll see.

  

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Utamaroho
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Tue Apr-01-03 06:50 AM

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4. "question things?"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

why question infallible texts? or god? or the infallible texts that talk about god? or the infallible god that inspried the infallible texts?



oh yeah...i'm not a god believer (in the sense of this post) so this doesn't apply:

"we will never understand our place in the universe"

Red, Black, Green

  

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McDeezNuts
Member since Jun 03rd 2002
5663 posts
Tue Apr-01-03 07:08 AM

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5. "Questioning is necessary for true faith and belief"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

I know I may be in a minority, but I think that believing something without question is not faith- it's stupidity. You have to really question and think about something before you can put your heart into it and REALLY believe that you've found the answer. People who blindly believe something without even contemplating other possibilities are misguided, IMO. I question everything, at least in my own mind.

>why question infallible texts?

I don't believe there are any. While I consider myself some kind of Christian (in a loose sense), I think that the Bible/Qoran (and other holy texts) are fallible and contain inconsistencies since they are made by man, even if they are divinely inspired.

>or god?

Like I said, questioning God is the best way to really believe in Him.

or the infallible
>texts that talk about god? or the infallible god that
>inspried the infallible texts?

Answered above. But this is an interesting subdiscussion...

>oh yeah...i'm not a god believer (in the sense of this post)
>so this doesn't apply:
>
>"we will never understand our place in the universe"

No, you only THINK you understand your place...
Not believing in God or a divine being definitely simplifies one's understanding of the universe and our place in it though...

  

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Utamaroho
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Tue Apr-01-03 07:14 AM

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7. "you're setting up parameters again."
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

basically limiting yourself from the start. not ALL ideologies do this.

when you say that i "think i know" then you put limitations on ME based on your limitations you set upon yourSELF. basically you're taking your understanding of reality and saying that others (that don't necesarily agree to said limitations) are limited to it as well. this is ok for christians and other absolutist ideologies...

just know there are other systems out there that don't. ones that have answered and gone through these elementary "free will" ideas/discussions LONNNNNNNNGGGGGGGG before christianity was around on the earth.

Red, Black, Green

  

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McDeezNuts
Member since Jun 03rd 2002
5663 posts
Tue Apr-01-03 07:36 AM

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11. "RE: you're setting up parameters again."
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

>basically limiting yourself from the start. not ALL
>ideologies do this.

All ideologies are limited in some way. No way of thinking allows for every possibility, because I don't think mankind has the capacity to comprehend every possibility.

>when you say that i "think i know" then you put limitations
>on ME based on your limitations you set upon yourSELF.
>basically you're taking your understanding of reality and
>saying that others (that don't necesarily agree to said
>limitations) are limited to it as well. this is ok for
>christians and other absolutist ideologies...

I didn't mean to come across as insulting. I'm not trying to impose/push my beliefs on anyone. But I do think that your understanding of your place in the universe is limited by your own set of parameters, just like everyone else's.

For example, since you don't believe in God/divine being, you don't allow the possibility that your whole frame of reference is just as flawed as mine. I'm not saying I have the right answer, but I think we're all forced to operate within our own set of limitations in terms of how we approach these types of abstract concepts.

>just know there are other systems out there that don't. ones
>that have answered and gone through these elementary "free
>will" ideas/discussions LONNNNNNNNGGGGGGGG before
>christianity was around on the earth.

I know Christianity is pretty young in the scheme of things (so is mankind). For the record, I think most religions that involve some type of divine power are somehow referencing the same deity, whether the religion/ideology is ancient or recent...

PS If a discussion of free will/predestination/God's role is elementary, I can't imagine what you consider a really advanced discussion... I think this discussion is pretty important in forming a frame of reference for understanding life itself (at least among those who believe in some type of divinity)...

PPS Are you a nihilist?

  

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Utamaroho
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Tue Apr-01-03 07:46 AM

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13. "LOL. dude. you're doing it again."
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

"All ideologies are limited in some way. No way of thinking allows for every possibility, because I don't think mankind has the capacity to comprehend every possibility."

-you see?

why not simply ask what i believe like you did at the end before imposing these assumptions on me and "mankind"? THAT would be wise. Better yet, do you think there is ANY answer i could give that would allow you to believe that there even "might" be an ideology that doesn't limit itself? if you answer "no" (as evidenced by your responses to me) then you might get an idea into what i'm talking about as far as how potentially damaging that mode of thinking is.

you might be asking yourself then (as you alluded to in you example of me not believing in God) as to how someone might be able to reconcile seemingly irreconcilable diffrences and seemingly or "outright" contradictory ideologies???

to that i just offer you this:

*smile*

"the lips of wisdom are open to the the ears of understanding."

nihilist. no.

Red, Black, Green

  

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Trinity444
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Tue Apr-01-03 07:50 AM

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16. "RE: LOL. dude. you're doing it again."
In response to Reply # 13


  

          


how can anyone that doesnt believe in God, tell you anything about him?

what do you know, I mean really?


  

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Utamaroho
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Tue Apr-01-03 08:03 AM

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18. "perhaps he "believed" in God."
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

and decided not to anymore.

you're operating off the assumption that KNOWING about God, his existence, and nature, perhaps even consulting and dealing with him personally...that one will continue to.

belief as you know is nothing without a manifestation of it. beleif alone is nothing...it doesn't DO anything. as such, one can KNOW something during a belief state and then stop believing it, but KNOW and REMEMBER everything from that time. how you deal and operate off that belief is what others see. the devil KNOWS and BELIEVES in God, even knows the outcome of his predicte attack upon heaven...but operates in opposition to it!

that's ONE answer...

another one is by having a seriously advanced ability at multitasking. one that allows the understanding of unreconcilable concepts (i.e. understanding but not faith/or adherance) to particular ideologies.

Red, Black, Green

  

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McDeezNuts
Member since Jun 03rd 2002
5663 posts
Tue Apr-01-03 08:04 AM

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19. "LOL. I see what you're saying. But..."
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

You said this in your first response:
2) an attempt to simply "talk" about concepts about a realm (being God) that above reproach by its very creation (if you believe in popular God concepts) and just a way of "us" trying to understand our place in a system. this is problematic since "we" are observing and discussing within an already created set of parameters about something that (by definition) exists OUTSIDE of those parameters. this makes the discussion pointless, or as my ancestors said of the greeks "full of empty talk and nothing more".

So again, if we're discussing something that exists outside our own parameters of understanding, isn't that akin to saying that mankind can't understand every possibility (because we're operating within the system we are discussing)?

>why not simply ask what i believe like you did at the end
>before imposing these assumptions on me and "mankind"? THAT
>would be wise.

I should have, I suppose. But I didn't realize that I was placing restrictions by saying that there are more possibilities than we can realize. If anything, the only limit I placed is that there are some options which exist but will never occur to us. Although that doesn't mean that all of the options which do occur are necessarily wrong...

Better yet, do you think there is ANY answer
>i could give that would allow you to believe that there even
>"might" be an ideology that doesn't limit itself?

I'm sure there is, but it would take a lot of understanding before I was ready to agree that there were no limitations...

>if you
>answer "no" (as evidenced by your responses to me) then you
>might get an idea into what i'm talking about as far as how
>potentially damaging that mode of thinking is.

This I agree with. LOL

>you might be asking yourself then (as you alluded to in you
>example of me not believing in God) as to how someone might
>be able to reconcile seemingly irreconcilable diffrences and
>seemingly or "outright" contradictory ideologies???
>
>to that i just offer you this:
>
>*smile*
>
>"the lips of wisdom are open to the the ears of
>understanding."
>
>nihilist. no.

Okay, so give it a go. I'll listen.

  

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Utamaroho
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Tue Apr-01-03 08:16 AM

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21. "look."
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

"So again, if we're discussing something that exists outside our own parameters of understanding, isn't that akin to saying that mankind can't understand every possibility (because we're operating within the system we are discussing)?"

-no. not mankind. just the peoplewho adhere to limiting parameters that they create.

in the archives Solarus points to the difference between the 10 Commandments and the 42 Principles of Maat (the negative confessions) which point to the differences in the way people think about their actions with respect to personal responsibility. it becomes obvious where the differences in peoples' limitations are upon readin. lemme find.

Red, Black, Green

  

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Utamaroho
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Tue Apr-01-03 07:26 AM

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10. "oh yeah."
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

faith is more fundamental than critique and asking questions...for it is BUILT UPON nothing. it is the belief in things unseen and unheard, yadda yadda, yadda...

if you have faith, your parameters for information challenging is AUTOMATICALLY skewed.

if i have FAITH in how and why electricity works...then any questioning (based off my belief) will naturally PROVE that it does. my brain will WORK and WORK HARD to find explanation and solutions to any question i could possibly come up with. it's like when you set parameters to a problem and spend energy looking for an answer that might exist OUTSIDE of those parameters...you'll find or CREATE something to explain why you can or can't find what you'r looking for.

same thing with philosophical christian thought. the only thing is...in areas where there ARE no answers, answers are usually created or generated by means OUTSIDE of divine text, or at its simplest "best guesses" based on texts and opinion.

why? because some ideologies are just NOT comfortable saying "i don't know" when it's approached by something unfamiliar. it's sad, but happens.

Red, Black, Green

  

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McDeezNuts
Member since Jun 03rd 2002
5663 posts
Tue Apr-01-03 07:48 AM

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14. "I definitely see what you're saying."
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

But what if you start with nothing and then develop your faith, instead of starting with faith and trying to justify it?

For example, first you gather evidence/ask questions. You will never reach a definite answer, but in the end, you eventually develop faith in whatever FEELS right based upon what you've learned/gathered from your questioning. This is different from starting with a conclusion (faith) and trying to prove it through questioning.


>if you have faith, your parameters for information
>challenging is AUTOMATICALLY skewed.

I agree, but that's if faith came before the information challenging exercises.

>if i have FAITH in how and why electricity works...then any
>questioning (based off my belief) will naturally PROVE that
>it does. my brain will WORK and WORK HARD to find
>explanation and solutions to any question i could possibly
>come up with. it's like when you set parameters to a problem
>and spend energy looking for an answer that might exist
>OUTSIDE of those parameters...you'll find or CREATE
>something to explain why you can or can't find what you'r
>looking for.

I totally agree. But if you start off saying, "Does electricity exist? Let's do some tests and try to find out." Then your subsequent faith is based on something (you still might be wrong, but it's better than basing your faith on nothing, like you said.

>same thing with philosophical christian thought. the only
>thing is...in areas where there ARE no answers, answers are
>usually created or generated by means OUTSIDE of divine
>text, or at its simplest "best guesses" based on texts and
>opinion.

I agree. I don't know that I necessarily apply "philosophical Christian thought." I like to think I approach these questions without the taint of those assumptions.

For the sake of this discussion, I did accept the assumption that there IS a God, only because without that assumption, it's too easy to answer my questions by saying "There's no God and of course we have free will." But I didn't specify that this divine being was the Christian God, with all that entails.

>why? because some ideologies are just NOT comfortable saying
>"i don't know" when it's approached by something unfamiliar.
>it's sad, but happens.

Definitely. That's why I call myself a Christian in a "loose" sense. I don't want to take someone's else interpretations of things as important as God and religion, I want to form my own set of beliefs.

Basically, I'm not "loosely" Christian because my parents told me to be. I am because I stepped away from all the trappings of organized religion and thought about things, and couldn't shake the feeling in my heart/soul that some divine being exists. And since I believe most religions indirectly involve the same deity (as I mentioned before), it's easy to call myself Christian and not feel like I'm being terribly deceptive. I don't practice organized religion, and my relationship with God is my own, not one defined by others/church.

  

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Utamaroho
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Tue Apr-01-03 07:56 AM

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17. "if i were you..."
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

on this "loose christian" thing...i'd pick up some C.S. Lewis, specifically his "Mere Chritianity", which deals with some VERY heavy philosophical ideals pertaining to christianity which would answer MANY of your queries and challenge your mind in a way that might make it feel like exploding at times before reinforcing and strengthening your Belief system, Understanding, and Faith about christian ideology. I recommend this to MANY a christian as it was recommended to ME to read and would doubt that doubt or questioning could ever intrude upon a christian's mind after reading it. great book. Lewis is an atheist turned christian christian apologist and prolly BEST author for extra-biblical reading for yall.

but as far as this faith thing... one reason other traditions don't use it like christianity or even HAVE it built in is because they operate off of KNOWING and have no problem NOT kowing or dealing with all that intails (ignorance about something). any ideology HAVING to know will have issues when dealing with the unknown and changing nature of reality. as such, these ideologies operate on what they know and are comfortable not creating explanations for what they don't.

Red, Black, Green

  

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McDeezNuts
Member since Jun 03rd 2002
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20. "Cool, thanks."
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

I haven't read any CS Lewis other than the Chronicles of Narnia when I was a kid. And those definitely had some Christian imagery/symbolism mixed in.

I'll have to check out "Mere Christianity."

  

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LexM
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61. "i don't agree w/ that either."
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

>"we will never understand our place in the universe"


~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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Allah
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3. "Free Will vs Freedom"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

First of all the Black Man is God, and his proper name is
Allah. Second, the Black Man in his proper "composure"
is All Knowing, meaning he is ALWAYS OBSERVANT OF HIS
ENVIRONMENT. Not a "know it all", but ALL KNOWING.
Not no fortune telling horoscope bullshit,
but he knows how to predict the outcome of various situations
using Supreme Mathematics. This is an exercise of his
Freedom, to use his Powers of Thinking and Reasoning, and
not being mentally enslaved through ignorance and mis-education.
"Free Will" usually intails somebody doing the fuck they
"want" to do, with out knowing the consequences of their actions
i.e. not familiar with the laws of Supreme Mathematics.
Peace. There is a difference between "free will" and
FREEDOM. Peace.

_______________________
"Arm Leg Leg Arm Hate." c/o desus
_______________________
Divine Ruler
http://www.facebook.com/divineruler
__gigs__
__stuff__

  

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Trinity444
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6. "all are true"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

1 - Does omniscience necessarily mean God knows the future?

yes, but carnal minds dont grasp it

>2 - If God knows the future, can we possibly have free will?
>If He knows what will happen, aren't our choices already
>set?

first lets discuss will, yes we are free to live at our own will but know what happens when you choose to. Our Creator prefers we do the will of Him and not our own, how can a man understand his own ways? he cant! the heart is tricky, tricky, tricky. that is why the Most High said lean not toward your own understanding but mine.

3 - If we have free will and God doesn't know our choices
>(and therefore the future), can he be considered omniscient?

not applicable

>What do you think? Personally I believe in free will
>(although I do think there is evidence of divine
>intervention on earth) but I wonder if/how God can be
>all-knowing and all-powerful when we have free will? Somehow
>I want it both ways...

we have free will but that doesnt mean do whatever "you" think is right in your own eyes because it will only get you but so far. God desire is that we do His will if not we can only blame ourselves. we need to recongize who we are dealing with, once that is done your will doesnt matter, but doing His will. You realize that free will means nuthing. and God "grants" it because he is also merciful

  

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McDeezNuts
Member since Jun 03rd 2002
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Tue Apr-01-03 07:16 AM

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8. "RE: all are true"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

So God gave us free will, but doesn't want us to use it unless we are using it to do His will?
He just put things in motion in the hopes that we will follow His plan?

Or is everything a part of His plan, even when we err?

Also, if God doesn't ever make mistakes but we do, then didn't he make a mistake when He gave us free will, knowing we'd mess up and make the wrong choices sometimes?

Or, if he intended for us to make the wrong choices, but is still planning on punishing us for them, isn't that just mean as hell?

  

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Utamaroho
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9. "god doesn't hope"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

-that's what i think trinity will say anyways.

but let it go. trinity is trying to speak FOR god via a book of god's divine (or divinely inspired) words. how much can s/he REALLY know about God outside of the texts...or at least how much about THIS discussion which aside from text-based answers is really not something people really ASK "God" in their prayrs about anyways??? (note: the very typical and classic answers being given)

where is freewill addressed in the christian text?

Red, Black, Green

  

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Trinity444
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12. "example of one that is carnal minded"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

>but let it go. trinity is trying to speak FOR god via a book
>of god's divine (or divinely inspired) words.

if you read it shouldnt I?

how much can s/he REALLY know about God outside of the texts...

how else will you know God?

>where is freewill addressed in the christian text?

Jn 6:35-40 and if this dont help I have others

  

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Utamaroho
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15. "how else will you know God?"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

-ummmm...Goddamned TALK to him for ONE! Jesus H. Christ people! i give you an out and you don't take it.

aside from texts, which are static...to address questions and ideas that are outside the realm of the text, you can consult the author. (although this creates many, many, real world problems) did you pay attention in sunday school?

*shakes head*

Red, Black, Green

  

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Trinity444
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22. "RE: how else will you know God?"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

that's as bad as the sunday school teachers/preachers that say
"all you have to do is believe"


  

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Utamaroho
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23. "huh?"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

?

Red, Black, Green

  

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poetx
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24. "that's always been my conundrum..."
In response to Reply # 8


  

          


>So God gave us free will, but doesn't want us to use it
>unless we are using it to do His will?

and since he created everything (including our 'sinful nature', and the 'tempter'), he shares responsibility for how messed up we are. i mean, it says we're flawed in genesis.

also, one of the things i've heard (yet to see it in scripture) as a differentiator between man and angels is that angels were not created with free will. and that some of them became jealous of people because of that.

how did lucifer rebel if he had no free will?

>
>Or, if he intended for us to make the wrong choices, but is
>still planning on punishing us for them, isn't that just
>mean as hell?

i know, right?

that's like you make your children have a race to see which ones you'll keep.

(having a uta thought). its predicated on the notion that judgement is necessary, that ranking is necessary, ie, somebody has got to be a loser. we can't all feel special about being god's children unless we know there are a (preferably larger) group who are NOT. depending upon one's religion, that differentiation is done based upon grace, or law, or personal 'worthiness'.




peace & blessings,

x.

"I'm on the Zoloft to keep from killing y'all." - Iron Mike

peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
I'm an advocate for working smarter, not harder. If you just
focus on working hard you end up making someone else rich and
not having much to show for it. (c) mad

  

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Utamaroho
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25. "angels are different from men..."
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

-the argument for your lucifer comment.

but i think the whole idea of this "free will" shit wasn't thought out too well before being written down.

Red, Black, Green

  

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McDeezNuts
Member since Jun 03rd 2002
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Wed Apr-02-03 03:03 AM

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31. "RE: that's always been my conundrum..."
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

>
>>So God gave us free will, but doesn't want us to use it
>>unless we are using it to do His will?
>
>and since he created everything (including our 'sinful
>nature', and the 'tempter'), he shares responsibility for
>how messed up we are. i mean, it says we're flawed in
>genesis.

Yeah. So if God never makes mistakes (presumably neither do angels, since they don't have free will), why do we make mistakes? Well, obviously He wanted us to, or we would be flawless too. Why would he want Us to sin from His divine will?

>also, one of the things i've heard (yet to see it in
>scripture) as a differentiator between man and angels is
>that angels were not created with free will. and that some
>of them became jealous of people because of that.
>
>how did lucifer rebel if he had no free will?

I've wondered that too. My thought is that maybe angels don't have free will in general, but the only choice they do have is to give up being an angel (in exchange for free will). So by exercising free will, an angel ceases to be an angel (e.g., Lucifer). There are examples in movies of this idea too (City of Angels comes to mind, where Nic Cage chose to become human so he could have free will to pursue Meg Ryan).

>>Or, if he intended for us to make the wrong choices, but is
>>still planning on punishing us for them, isn't that just
>>mean as hell?
>
>i know, right?
>
>that's like you make your children have a race to see which
>ones you'll keep.

Similar, yeah. But I guess we can't hold God to our standards of understanding.

>(having a uta thought). its predicated on the notion that
>judgement is necessary, that ranking is necessary, ie,
>somebody has got to be a loser. we can't all feel special
>about being god's children unless we know there are a
>(preferably larger) group who are NOT. depending upon one's
>religion, that differentiation is done based upon grace, or
>law, or personal 'worthiness'.

This seems like something only a human would bother with, though. God could have created people in a way that this wasn't true, right? He is all-powerful, so why not make us feel special even without excluding anyone?

  

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Humzaki
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26. "RE: Free will vs predestination, God's omniscience..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

All three are correct

Mankind have freewill
God is All Knowing

These two don't cancel each other out

Peace
H

  

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McDeezNuts
Member since Jun 03rd 2002
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Wed Apr-02-03 02:53 AM

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30. "RE: Free will vs predestination, God's omniscience..."
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

>All three are correct
>
>Mankind have freewill
>God is All Knowing
>
>These two don't cancel each other out

Yeah, but what about the future? Does "All Knowing" include knowing the future? If so, then the future is already set, right? And how can we have free will to choose between different choices if the outcome is predetermined? That's the main thrust of my questions.

  

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Trinity444
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32. "RE: Free will vs predestination, God's omniscience..."
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

>Yeah, but what about the future? Does "All Knowing" include
>knowing the future? If so, then the future is already set,
>right? And how can we have free will to choose between
>different choices if the outcome is predetermined? That's
>the main thrust of my questions.

first you need to understand who God is and how powerful He is.
"all knowing", yes does include the future. if you go back and read the word God had a plan for mankind, "to be fruitful and multiply", that isnt happening . God choose a nation of people to show His will to all nations of the earth, they failed. Now you have everyone leaning toward their own understanding of who God is and what He expects from us.

His will is for us to live a life of righteousness according to the standards he set forth and you can only find them in His word (let no man deceive you with anything else) "how can we have free will if our life is already predetermined" simple God says choose His way of life and live, or lean toward your own and die. You have the choice to do good or evil, good brings you peace and evil bring you, this life this world we are living in.

  

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Blackwell95_ss
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107. "exactly"
In response to Reply # 32


          

his ways are beyond ours

l

  

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Humzaki
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33. "RE: Free will vs predestination, God's omniscience..."
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

Yes ALL knowinging means that it includes knowing the future.
God knows all
God knows of our actions in the future
God knows

This time passing here on earth is only to prove to ourselves what God already knows. This is so that it can never be said that we never had a chance.

Mankind is one of the few creations that does have freewill. You can choose what you want to do(on a basic level you can choose to read this or not, however your choice is already known by the Almighty) unlike flora and fauna.

Peace
H

  

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osoclasi
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27. "God predestines all. Man has no freewill."
In response to Reply # 0


          

Response: Hey how is it going. I am in the minorty group on this topic, because I am what you call a 5 point calvanist.

I believe that God is truely sovereign over men, even down to the choices that they make.

This view is not the most popular within Christianity, but i do think that I can defend it biblically.

Most Christians will argue for a free will, and I don't mind that. However, my position is that God predestines all events and nothing catches him off guard.

------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

  

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osoclasi
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28. "here is some biblical support:"
In response to Reply # 27


          

Acts 4:27
"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,

Acts 4:28
to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.


and:

Ephesians 1:11
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,


nothing is outside the will of the Lord.

------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

  

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Trinity444
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34. "RE: here is some biblical support:"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

and these are mine

Jn.6:35-40
not to do mine own will, but the will of Him who sent me

Prov.20:24
Man's goings are of the Lord; how can a man then understand his own way?

Prov.19:20-21
Hear counsel, and receive instruction, that thou mayest be wise in thy latter end.

There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand

Prov.14:12
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the way of death.

Prov.12:15
The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

2 Tim.3:14-17
But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That the man of God may be perfect, throughtly furnished unto all good works.

  

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Trinity444
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36. "please be mindful of"
In response to Reply # 34


  

          


people have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge

  

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McDeezNuts
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29. "cool"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

That's an interesting viewpoint, and I'm glad we're getting some differing opinions. I recognize that as a possibility, but it's hard to accept that everything is already set. It makes life seem very depressing to me, because I'm not truly making any choices, they're all made for me - I rebel against that notion.

Also, for those people who go to Hell - man that sucks. They had no free will in their life on earth but yet they suffer for eternity because of things they were destined to do wrong. That bothers me too.

  

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osoclasi
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39. "RE: cool"
In response to Reply # 29


          

>That's an interesting viewpoint, and I'm glad we're getting
>some differing opinions. I recognize that as a possibility,
>but it's hard to accept that everything is already set. It
>makes life seem very depressing to me, because I'm not truly
>making any choices, they're all made for me - I rebel
>against that notion.

Response: I understand, but the truth of the matter is that you are truely making choices. But they are compatible with what God already predestined. It should not be seen as depressing because a holy and wonderful God is behind all of this crazyness in the world. How else can we have the security that evil will one day be destroyed?
>
>Also, for those people who go to Hell - man that sucks. They
>had no free will in their life on earth but yet they suffer
>for eternity because of things they were destined to do
>wrong. That bothers me too.

Response: Have you ever considered that those people who go to hell want to go to hell? And if they went to heaven they would be worse off, because they don't want to be there?

------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

  

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kid
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40. "."
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

>Response: Have you ever considered that those people who go
>to hell want to go to hell? And if they went to heaven they
>would be worse off, because they don't want to be there?

wow thats deep like the choices are in front of us, god knows what we SHOULD do, but free will prevents that at times.

I also really liked, when it was said, we tell God what we want to learn before even arriving on this planet, so the path is set forth then.

***********************************
StLOKp's�: DawgEatah, Dstl1, hyde, Colonel Sanders, MisterGrump, Afrotec, Instant_Vintage, ThaTruth, Soul1908, SefConscious, Baldheadslik, YngblkprinceMD, 314confidential, rdiggity, Kid

Honorable mention:auragin_boi

  

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Kozmikblak
Member since Sep 10th 2002
1154 posts
Wed Apr-02-03 09:52 AM

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42. "Is Evil really Evil?....."
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

If this is all a play that has been written and the outcome assured. Is Evil really Evil. Would not Evil be rewared for playing its part according to the script?...

-----------
"I don't blame Tiger Woods, but I overstand the mental poison that's even worse than drugs" -nas poison

"For trees to grow in Brooklyn seeds need to be planted. I asked, "can you feel it?" and the crowd left me stranded" -Talib kweli

"Hip Hop, a way of life it doesn't tell you how to raise a child or treat a wife" -Q-tip A tribe called Quest

"...Cats sip champagne to toast death and pain like slaves on a ship talking about who has the flyest chain" -Talib Kweli Black Star

"We're the renegade we're the people with our own philosophy, we change the course of history. Everyday people like you and me." Afrika Bambaataa and the Soulsonic force Renegades of funk

"The children in the street no longer seek 300 and 6-0 degrees, they park they minds at 1 oh 6 and freeze" -Pos-Freedom Train

"Devil and nigga are the same to me." -Nettrice

"it's wack to me when the beat is more hype than the M.C. cuz what he is saying

  

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kid
Member since Jul 10th 2002
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Wed Apr-02-03 09:56 AM

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43. "RE: Is Evil really Evil?....."
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

As disposible as a pawn, Maybe their role was counted on instead of planned, waiting to watch evil be evil then react.

***********************************
StLOKp's�: DawgEatah, Dstl1, hyde, Colonel Sanders, MisterGrump, Afrotec, Instant_Vintage, ThaTruth, Soul1908, SefConscious, Baldheadslik, YngblkprinceMD, 314confidential, rdiggity, Kid

Honorable mention:auragin_boi

  

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Kozmikblak
Member since Sep 10th 2002
1154 posts
Wed Apr-02-03 10:08 AM

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44. "RE: Is Evil really Evil?....."
In response to Reply # 43


  

          

Chewing....

--------
"I don't blame Tiger Woods, but I overstand the mental poison that's even worse than drugs" -nas poison

"For trees to grow in Brooklyn seeds need to be planted. I asked, "can you feel it?" and the crowd left me stranded" -Talib kweli

"Hip Hop, a way of life it doesn't tell you how to raise a child or treat a wife" -Q-tip A tribe called Quest

"...Cats sip champagne to toast death and pain like slaves on a ship talking about who has the flyest chain" -Talib Kweli Black Star

"We're the renegade we're the people with our own philosophy, we change the course of history. Everyday people like you and me." Afrika Bambaataa and the Soulsonic force Renegades of funk

"The children in the street no longer seek 300 and 6-0 degrees, they park they minds at 1 oh 6 and freeze" -Pos-Freedom Train

"Devil and nigga are the same to me." -Nettrice

"it's wack to me when the beat is more hype than the M.C. cuz what he is saying

  

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Kozmikblak
Member since Sep 10th 2002
1154 posts
Thu Apr-03-03 10:37 AM

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59. "RE: Is Evil really Evil?....."
In response to Reply # 43


  

          

>As disposible as a pawn, Maybe their role was counted on
>instead of planned, waiting to watch evil be evil then
>react.

So, is it your contention that life is not predestined by God?

--------
"I don't blame Tiger Woods, but I overstand the mental poison that's even worse than drugs" -nas poison

"For trees to grow in Brooklyn seeds need to be planted. I asked, "can you feel it?" and the crowd left me stranded" -Talib kweli

"Hip Hop, a way of life it doesn't tell you how to raise a child or treat a wife" -Q-tip A tribe called Quest

"...Cats sip champagne to toast death and pain like slaves on a ship talking about who has the flyest chain" -Talib Kweli Black Star

"We're the renegade we're the people with our own philosophy, we change the course of history. Everyday people like you and me." Afrika Bambaataa and the Soulsonic force Renegades of funk

"The children in the street no longer seek 300 and 6-0 degrees, they park they minds at 1 oh 6 and freeze" -Pos-Freedom Train

"Devil and nigga are the same to me." -Nettrice

"it's wack to me when the beat is more hype than the M.C. cuz what he is saying

  

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kid
Member since Jul 10th 2002
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Thu Apr-03-03 12:46 PM

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63. "RE: Is Evil really Evil?....."
In response to Reply # 59


  

          

I would say as T_Dawg did, like a mouse in a maze, the one true path is predetermined, but the choices of taking a wrong turn is available, but without an end to the wrong path. I think if he/she could elaborate then we could expand......maybe evil is the distraction leading us off the correct path. I'll be back 2marrow. and thust upon my return thou shalt seeath the light, and gaze as you will, as it is beatiful.

HA I just made that up f*ckin around.

***********************************
StLOKp's�: DawgEatah, Dstl1, hyde, Colonel Sanders, MisterGrump, Afrotec, Instant_Vintage, ThaTruth, Soul1908, SefConscious, Baldheadslik, YngblkprinceMD, 314confidential, rdiggity, Kid

Honorable mention:auragin_boi

  

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Kozmikblak
Member since Sep 10th 2002
1154 posts
Fri Apr-04-03 03:02 AM

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72. "RE: Is Evil really Evil?....."
In response to Reply # 63


  

          

That last bit some funny shit.

If I get what you're saying... The big picture is predetermined but the individuals make personal choices whether or not to work towards the finish of the big picture.

Is that it?
----------
"I don't blame Tiger Woods, but I overstand the mental poison that's even worse than drugs" -nas poison

"For trees to grow in Brooklyn seeds need to be planted. I asked, "can you feel it?" and the crowd left me stranded" -Talib kweli

"Hip Hop, a way of life it doesn't tell you how to raise a child or treat a wife" -Q-tip A tribe called Quest

"...Cats sip champagne to toast death and pain like slaves on a ship talking about who has the flyest chain" -Talib Kweli Black Star

"We're the renegade we're the people with our own philosophy, we change the course of history. Everyday people like you and me." Afrika Bambaataa and the Soulsonic force Renegades of funk

"The children in the street no longer seek 300 and 6-0 degrees, they park they minds at 1 oh 6 and freeze" -Pos-Freedom Train

"Devil and nigga are the same to me." -Nettrice

"it's wack to me when the beat is more hype than the M.C. cuz what he is saying

  

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kid
Member since Jul 10th 2002
4436 posts
Fri Apr-04-03 08:35 AM

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76. "YEAH!!!"
In response to Reply # 72


  

          

that was very well said, better than what i can do.
So all evil is (according to this theory) is a distraction to tempt you away from everlasting greatness.
What a bastard!!!!! (evil that is, not you!)

***********************************
StLOKp's�: DawgEatah, Dstl1, hyde, Colonel Sanders, MisterGrump, Afrotec, Instant_Vintage, ThaTruth, Soul1908, SefConscious, Baldheadslik, YngblkprinceMD, 314confidential, rdiggity, Kid

Honorable mention:auragin_boi

  

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Kozmikblak
Member since Sep 10th 2002
1154 posts
Fri Apr-04-03 08:50 AM

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78. "RE: YEAH!!!"
In response to Reply # 76


  

          

That's peace, and I respect your view.

---------------
"I don't blame Tiger Woods, but I overstand the mental poison that's even worse than drugs" -nas poison

"For trees to grow in Brooklyn seeds need to be planted. I asked, "can you feel it?" and the crowd left me stranded" -Talib kweli

"Hip Hop, a way of life it doesn't tell you how to raise a child or treat a wife" -Q-tip A tribe called Quest

"...Cats sip champagne to toast death and pain like slaves on a ship talking about who has the flyest chain" -Talib Kweli Black Star

"We're the renegade we're the people with our own philosophy, we change the course of history. Everyday people like you and me." Afrika Bambaataa and the Soulsonic force Renegades of funk

"There's a war goin on outside no man is safe from...You can run but you can't hide forever" -Mobb Deep

"The children in the street no longer seek 300 and 6-0 degrees, they park they minds at 1 oh 6 and freeze" -Pos-Freedom Train

"Devil and nigga are the same to me." -Nettrice

"it's wack to me when the beat is more hype than the M.C. cuz what he is saying

  

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osoclasi
Charter member
993 posts
Wed Apr-02-03 01:14 PM

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49. "RE: Is Evil really Evil?....."
In response to Reply # 42


          

>If this is all a play that has been written and the outcome
>assured. Is Evil really Evil. Would not Evil be rewared
>for playing its part according to the script?...

Response: Nice question, yes evil is really evil. Because the people commiting the evil are rejecting the only being who is good. The ones doing the evil are not in there hearts acting according to God's will, rather it is there intention to do their own evil. But God being sovereign uses their evil in order to accomplish a good, which is his will.

------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

  

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Kozmikblak
Member since Sep 10th 2002
1154 posts
Thu Apr-03-03 02:32 AM

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51. "RE: Is Evil really Evil?....."
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

Can God be classified as Good or Evil?

If God is ALL would that not include good and evil?

If Evil exist did not God create it?

IF created by God can it be that bad?

---------
"I don't blame Tiger Woods, but I overstand the mental poison that's even worse than drugs" -nas poison

"For trees to grow in Brooklyn seeds need to be planted. I asked, "can you feel it?" and the crowd left me stranded" -Talib kweli

"Hip Hop, a way of life it doesn't tell you how to raise a child or treat a wife" -Q-tip A tribe called Quest

"...Cats sip champagne to toast death and pain like slaves on a ship talking about who has the flyest chain" -Talib Kweli Black Star

"We're the renegade we're the people with our own philosophy, we change the course of history. Everyday people like you and me." Afrika Bambaataa and the Soulsonic force Renegades of funk

"The children in the street no longer seek 300 and 6-0 degrees, they park they minds at 1 oh 6 and freeze" -Pos-Freedom Train

"Devil and nigga are the same to me." -Nettrice

"it's wack to me when the beat is more hype than the M.C. cuz what he is saying

  

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osoclasi
Charter member
993 posts
Thu Apr-03-03 06:52 AM

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53. "RE: Is Evil really Evil?....."
In response to Reply # 51


          

>Can God be classified as Good or Evil?

Response: Speaking from a Christian world-view God is the only thing that is good. In other words he is the source of all that is good, because no darkness dwells within him.

>If God is ALL would that not include good and evil?

Response: The question that should be asked is God All What? We say that God is all Knowing, all Powerful. God himself cannot be evil because that would be a contridiction of his own charecter.
>
>If Evil exist did not God create it?

Response: No, because evil is not a being. It is an intent, motive, or drive. It is not something floating around that grabs people and makes them act a certain way.
>
>IF created by God can it be that bad?

Response: yes, because it is in direct opposition to his charecter. However, God does use evil in order to bring about a good.

------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

  

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Kozmikblak
Member since Sep 10th 2002
1154 posts
Thu Apr-03-03 10:31 AM

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57. "RE: Is Evil really Evil?....."
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

>>Can God be classified as Good or Evil?
>
>Response: Speaking from a Christian world-view God is the
>only thing that is good. In other words he is the source of
>all that is good, because no darkness dwells within him.
>
Everything is in God and God is in Everything.. To have light there must be dark, to have good there must be evil...
If in the beginning there was nothing but God existed is God not Nothingness Also?...

>>If God is ALL would that not include good and evil?
>
>Response: The question that should be asked is God All What?
> We say that God is all Knowing, all Powerful. God himself
>cannot be evil because that would be a contridiction of his
>own charecter.
>>
God is ALL being Everything ALL aspects of life, thought, so on and so forth.....(see above)

>>If Evil exist did not God create it?
>
>Response: No, because evil is not a being. It is an intent,
>motive, or drive. It is not something floating around that
>grabs people and makes them act a certain way.
>>
Nothing would exist if God did not create it...was creation a thought before the spoken word?...if so for anyone to conceive of evil God had to make that possible there for God knows and knew evil before creation so how do you know that God is not capable of using or doing evil?....

>>IF created by God can it be that bad?
>
>Response: yes, because it is in direct opposition to his
>charecter. However, God does use evil in order to bring
>about a good.

So you just contradicted your yes because if good can come from evil than evel can't be that bad.

-----------

"I don't blame Tiger Woods, but I overstand the mental poison that's even worse than drugs" -nas poison

"For trees to grow in Brooklyn seeds need to be planted. I asked, "can you feel it?" and the crowd left me stranded" -Talib kweli

"Hip Hop, a way of life it doesn't tell you how to raise a child or treat a wife" -Q-tip A tribe called Quest

"...Cats sip champagne to toast death and pain like slaves on a ship talking about who has the flyest chain" -Talib Kweli Black Star

"We're the renegade we're the people with our own philosophy, we change the course of history. Everyday people like you and me." Afrika Bambaataa and the Soulsonic force Renegades of funk

"The children in the street no longer seek 300 and 6-0 degrees, they park they minds at 1 oh 6 and freeze" -Pos-Freedom Train

"Devil and nigga are the same to me." -Nettrice

"it's wack to me when the beat is more hype than the M.C. cuz what he is saying

  

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Kozmikblak
Member since Sep 10th 2002
1154 posts
Thu Apr-03-03 10:34 AM

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58. "RE: Is Evil really Evil?....."
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

Another question.

Can God be the perfect balance of good and evil?....
----------
"I don't blame Tiger Woods, but I overstand the mental poison that's even worse than drugs" -nas poison

"For trees to grow in Brooklyn seeds need to be planted. I asked, "can you feel it?" and the crowd left me stranded" -Talib kweli

"Hip Hop, a way of life it doesn't tell you how to raise a child or treat a wife" -Q-tip A tribe called Quest

"...Cats sip champagne to toast death and pain like slaves on a ship talking about who has the flyest chain" -Talib Kweli Black Star

"We're the renegade we're the people with our own philosophy, we change the course of history. Everyday people like you and me." Afrika Bambaataa and the Soulsonic force Renegades of funk

"The children in the street no longer seek 300 and 6-0 degrees, they park they minds at 1 oh 6 and freeze" -Pos-Freedom Train

"Devil and nigga are the same to me." -Nettrice

"it's wack to me when the beat is more hype than the M.C. cuz what he is saying

  

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osoclasi
Charter member
993 posts
Thu Apr-03-03 05:55 PM

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68. "RE: Is Evil really Evil?....."
In response to Reply # 58


          

>Another question.
>
>Can God be the perfect balance of good and evil?....

Response: No not from a Christian world view. Because we believe that in the end God is going to overthrow evil. And destroy it once and for all. There is no balance from our perspective, God is only pure and Holy.

Now you might find this sort of thought in Tao or maybe even Hinduism but not Christianity.

------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

  

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osoclasi
Charter member
993 posts
Thu Apr-03-03 05:52 PM

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67. "RE: Is Evil really Evil?....."
In response to Reply # 57


          


>Everything is in God and God is in Everything.. To have
>light there must be dark, to have good there must be evil...
>If in the beginning there was nothing but God existed is God
>not Nothingness Also?...

Response: Well that depends on how you define God. From a biblical perspective God is not everything and everything is not God. What you are describing are more eastern views of god. i.e. Hinduism etc. God is over all of his creation and is transcedent over them. God is not all.

To answer your second question, no God is not nothingness. He is a complete being. Completely functioning and not dependent upon anything.

>God is ALL being Everything ALL aspects of life, thought, so
>on and so forth.....(see above)

Response: Again our definitions of God are different. God is not everything, however God is creator of everything. So our defintions are not the same.

>Nothing would exist if God did not create it...was creation
>a thought before the spoken word?...if so for anyone to
>conceive of evil God had to make that possible there for God
>knows and knew evil before creation so how do you know that
>God is not capable of using or doing evil?....

Response: Well I would argue that God made evil possible, but man made it actual. Does that make God evil himself? No.God could not commit evil because God cannot even look at evil or approve evil.

Habakkuk 1:13
Your eyes are too pure to approve evil,
And You can not look on wickedness with favor.
Why do You look with favor
On those who deal treacherously?
Why are You silent when the wicked swallow up
Those more righteous than they?

And God cannot act outside of his own nature. Of course God knew there was going to be evil in the world. But again evil is not a being, it is an intent. God gave men the ability to make decisions. However he uses those intentions and desires too bring about his will.
>
>So you just contradicted your yes because if good can come
>from evil than evel can't be that bad.

Response: No I did not contridict myself. Because I said God can use evil for a good. The one being described as good is God, not the evil. The ones committing the evil have no desire to do God's will. God is using them like instruments in order to bring about his will.

Evil is that bad, because it is direct opposition to the one that is truely good. And nothing in opposition to the creator can ever be seen as good. Or that bad.

------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

  

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Kozmikblak
Member since Sep 10th 2002
1154 posts
Fri Apr-04-03 02:53 AM

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71. "RE: Is Evil really Evil?....."
In response to Reply # 67


  

          


>Response: ...however God is creator of everything.
>
>>.....for anyone to conceive of evil God had to make that possible therefore God knows and knew evil before creation so how do you know that God is not capable of using or doing evil?....
>
>Response: Well I would argue that God made evil possible,
>but man made it actual. God could not commit evil because God cannot even look at evil or approve evil.
>
>Habakkuk 1:13
>Your eyes are too pure to approve evil,
>And You can not look on wickedness with favor.
>Why do You look with favor
>On those who deal treacherously?
>Why are You silent when the wicked swallow up
>Those more righteous than they?
>
>Of course God knew there was going to be evil in the world. But again evil is not a being, it is an intent.

Where does Satan, Morning Star, Iblyis, Lucifer, Beelzabub, The Devil fit into all of this? Is it not a being of pure evil since it's billed as the exact opposite of, in direct opposition to, God
---------------
>>So you just contradicted your yes because if good can come
>>from evil than evel can't be that bad.
>
>Response: No I did not contridict myself. Because I said
>God can use evil for a good. The one being described as
>good is God, not the evil. The ones committing the evil
>have no desire to do God's will. God is using them like
>instruments in order to bring about his will.
>
But God brought about its' will (good) by using the instrument evil. If good can come about by using evil then evil can't be that bad. Which brings about the contradiction that God doesn't do or use evil when you just stated that God USES evil like a instrument to bring about (good) its' will
-------------
>Evil is that bad, because it is direct opposition to the one
>that is truely good. And nothing in opposition to the
>creator can ever be seen as good. Or that bad. (or not that bad)

-----------
Quotes:
"I don't blame Tiger Woods, but I overstand the mental poison that's even worse than drugs" -nas poison

"For trees to grow in Brooklyn seeds need to be planted. I asked, "can you feel it?" and the crowd left me stranded" -Talib kweli

"Hip Hop, a way of life it doesn't tell you how to raise a child or treat a wife" -Q-tip A tribe called Quest

"...Cats sip champagne to toast death and pain like slaves on a ship talking about who has the flyest chain" -Talib Kweli Black Star

"We're the renegade we're the people with our own philosophy, we change the course of history. Everyday people like you and me." Afrika Bambaataa and the Soulsonic force Renegades of funk

"The children in the street no longer seek 300 and 6-0 degrees, they park they minds at 1 oh 6 and freeze" -Pos-Freedom Train

"Devil and nigga are the same to me." -Nettrice

"it's wack to me when the beat is more hype than the M.C. cuz what he is saying

  

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osoclasi
Charter member
993 posts
Fri Apr-04-03 08:26 AM

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74. "RE: Is Evil really Evil?....."
In response to Reply # 71


          

>
>Where does Satan, Morning Star, Iblyis, Lucifer, Beelzabub,
>The Devil fit into all of this? Is it not a being of pure
>evil since it's billed as the exact opposite of, in direct
>opposition to, God

Response: Well actually no Satan is no match for God. Satan was once a good angel. And too a certain degree in terms of his creation he still is good.( God only makes good, Satan is a by-product of his own evil.) However he is opposed to everything that God does, but he is a defeated foe. (already) he is no match for God. God is not worried about the devil, God uses the devil any which way that he choses too.
>---------------
>But God brought about its' will (good) by using the
>instrument evil. If good can come about by using evil then
>evil can't be that bad. Which brings about the
>contradiction that God doesn't do or use evil when you just
>stated that God USES evil like a instrument to bring about
>(good) its' will

Response: Again evil is an intent. It's intentions is *not* to do the will of God. It is totally against God. God does not do things against himself. However, God uses man's and Satans evil for his own glory. *Despite* the fact that it is in opposition to him, and uses evil* not for its original intent to do harm* but to bring about his own glory. See this is not a contridiction because as I have noted evil is an *intention* to do the opposite of God's will. Since it intends to do the opposite it is that bad. But since God is sovereign he uses that evil action for his will and his purpose.

The intent is everything.

------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

  

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Kozmikblak
Member since Sep 10th 2002
1154 posts
Fri Apr-04-03 08:39 AM

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77. "RE: Is Evil really Evil?....."
In response to Reply # 74
Fri Apr-04-03 08:43 AM

  

          

Was it Gods intent to create the intention evil?

Did not God/son of God see The Satan on the mountain? (in response to your hubbakk quote)

What about the trials of Job the boils, death of his family, and such. God not using evil then with Gods on intent to bring about its' glorious will?

-------------
"I don't blame Tiger Woods, but I overstand the mental poison that's even worse than drugs" -nas poison

"For trees to grow in Brooklyn seeds need to be planted. I asked, "can you feel it?" and the crowd left me stranded" -Talib kweli

"Hip Hop, a way of life it doesn't tell you how to raise a child or treat a wife" -Q-tip A tribe called Quest

"...Cats sip champagne to toast death and pain like slaves on a ship talking about who has the flyest chain" -Talib Kweli Black Star

"We're the renegade we're the people with our own philosophy, we change the course of history. Everyday people like you and me." Afrika Bambaataa and the Soulsonic force Renegades of funk

"There's a war goin on outside no man is safe from...You can run but you can't hide forever" -Mobb Deep

"The children in the street no longer seek 300 and 6-0 degrees, they park they minds at 1 oh 6 and freeze" -Pos-Freedom Train

"Devil and nigga are the same to me." -Nettrice

"it's wack to me when the beat is more hype than the M.C. cuz what he is saying

  

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osoclasi
Charter member
993 posts
Fri Apr-04-03 11:10 AM

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81. "RE: Is Evil really Evil?....."
In response to Reply # 77


          

>Was it Gods intent to create the intention evil?

Response: I think that God made evil possible. But we made it actual. So I think God did predestine the fall, so that evil would come in. But God did not create the evil, we made it actual.
>
>Did not God/son of God see The Satan on the mountain? (in
>response to your hubbakk quote)

Response: Of course. But it says that God cannot look upon evil with favor or approval. Jesus did not approve of Satan one ounce.
>
>What about the trials of Job the boils, death of his family,
>and such. God not using evil then with Gods on intent to
>bring about its' glorious will?

Response: Yes, read the opening section of the book. God told Satan what he could and could not do. Job recognized God's sovereignty by saying "the Lord gives and the Lord takes away." God was in full control of the situation. Then if you have time read the end of the book. God vindicated Job and restored all that he had took from him.

Hey I may be a little slow getting too you this weekend. But I will respond. Peace

------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

  

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Kozmikblak
Member since Sep 10th 2002
1154 posts
Thu Apr-10-03 02:50 PM

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110. "RE: Is Evil really Evil?....."
In response to Reply # 81
Thu Apr-10-03 02:50 PM

  

          

Directed to you response in post 67.

<Response: No I did not contridict myself. Because I said God can use evil for a good. The one being described as good is God, not the evil. The ones committing the evil have no desire to do God's will. God is using them like instruments in order to bring about his will.>

Do you believe the end justifies the means.

To clarify: God uses evil to bring about its' good will as part of its' divine plan manifesting its' glory.

Is that correct?

----------------------

"I don't blame Tiger Woods, but I overstand the mental poison that's even worse than drugs" -nas poison

"For trees to grow in Brooklyn seeds need to be planted. I asked, "can you feel it?" and the crowd left me stranded" -Talib kweli

"Hip Hop, a way of life it doesn't tell you how to raise a child or treat a wife" -Q-tip A tribe called Quest

"...Cats sip champagne to toast death and pain like slaves on a ship talking about who has the flyest chain" -Talib Kweli Black Star

"We're the renegade we're the people with our own philosophy, we change the course of history. Everyday people like you and me." Afrika Bambaataa and the Soulsonic force Renegades of funk

"There's a war goin on outside no man is safe from...You can run but you can't hide forever" -Mobb Deep

"The children in the street no longer seek 300 and 6-0 degrees, they park they minds at 1 oh 6 and freeze" -Pos-Freedom Train

"Devil and nigga are the same to me." -Nettrice

"it's wack to me when the beat is more hype than the M.C. cuz what he is saying

  

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osoclasi
Charter member
993 posts
Thu Apr-10-03 06:01 PM

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112. "RE: Is Evil really Evil?....."
In response to Reply # 110


          

>
>Do you believe the end justifies the means.
>
>To clarify: God uses evil to bring about its' good will as
>part of its' divine plan manifesting its' glory.

Response: Not quite. God uses evil bring about *his* good will as part of *his* divine plane to manifest *his* glory. Remember the ones doing evil have no intent on doing God's will.
>
>----------------------
>
>"I don't blame Tiger Woods, but I overstand the mental
>poison that's even worse than drugs" -nas poison
>
>"For trees to grow in Brooklyn seeds need to be planted. I
>asked, "can you feel it?" and the crowd left me stranded"
>-Talib kweli
>
>"Hip Hop, a way of life it doesn't tell you how to raise a
>child or treat a wife" -Q-tip A tribe called Quest
>
>"...Cats sip champagne to toast death and pain like slaves
>on a ship talking about who has the flyest chain" -Talib
>Kweli Black Star
>
>"We're the renegade we're the people with our own
>philosophy, we change the course of history. Everyday people
>like you and me." Afrika Bambaataa and the Soulsonic force
>Renegades of funk
>
>"There's a war goin on outside no man is safe from...You can
>run but you can't hide forever" -Mobb Deep

------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

  

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Kozmikblak
Member since Sep 10th 2002
1154 posts
Fri Apr-11-03 01:16 AM

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113. "RE: Is Evil really Evil?....."
In response to Reply # 112


  

          


>Response: Not quite. God uses evil bring about *his* good
>will as part of *his* divine plane to manifest *his* glory.
>Remember the ones doing evil have no intent on doing God's
>will.
>>

How about God uses evil to bring about God's good will as part of God's divine plane to manifest God's glory.

Didn't mean to offend.

If this is what works for you then that's Peace.

Kozblak Signing off.

>>----------------------

>>"We're the renegade we're the people with our own
>>philosophy, we change the course of history. Everyday people
>>like you and me." Afrika Bambaataa and the Soulsonic force
>>Renegades of funk
>>
>>"There's a war goin on outside no man is safe from...You can
>>run but you can't hide forever" -Mobb Deep

"I don't blame Tiger Woods, but I overstand the mental poison that's even worse than drugs" -nas poison

"For trees to grow in Brooklyn seeds need to be planted. I asked, "can you feel it?" and the crowd left me stranded" -Talib kweli

"Hip Hop, a way of life it doesn't tell you how to raise a child or treat a wife" -Q-tip A tribe called Quest

"...Cats sip champagne to toast death and pain like slaves on a ship talking about who has the flyest chain" -Talib Kweli Black Star

"We're the renegade we're the people with our own philosophy, we change the course of history. Everyday people like you and me." Afrika Bambaataa and the Soulsonic force Renegades of funk

"There's a war goin on outside no man is safe from...You can run but you can't hide forever" -Mobb Deep

"The children in the street no longer seek 300 and 6-0 degrees, they park they minds at 1 oh 6 and freeze" -Pos-Freedom Train

"Devil and nigga are the same to me." -Nettrice

"it's wack to me when the beat is more hype than the M.C. cuz what he is saying

  

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ShinNy
Charter member
696 posts
Wed Apr-02-03 09:43 AM

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41. "How did you utilize the "Hebrew" words like that in you"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

It would be much appreciated.....hit up the inbox...



ShinNy b.k.a....h k -A-g /|_ A \/ h....

***The Sig Starts Here***

"You and God make a majority"--Pastor Arnold Murray

"Enjoy my space employ my waste
In case the hand dealt by a stolen grace
Do you ever wish the circle wasn't square
So when landsharks start circling the borders
You could just cut them off at the corners
There's a ghost in the basket of values
Pertinent to, which cayak pilot succeeded in serving him proof
Now I'm surfin it through"--Aesop Rock


ShinNy b.k.a....h k -A-g /|_ A \/ h....

www.myspace.com/hekslavish

  

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Native2000
Charter member
1004 posts
Wed Apr-02-03 05:43 AM

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35. "In Yoruba..."
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Apr-02-03 05:44 AM

          

our obligation is to "bind back" or to re-establish or remember the divine pact that we have with God. Before we ever set foot in the earth school we pretty much told God what we wanted to do/learn while here.

How's that for predestination.

God is in everything and everything is in God.

peace

Mahogany




the possibilities are endless...

Life is but a dream.

There are no answers, only choices.

I do not think, if one is a writer, that one escapes it by trying to become something else. One does not become something else: one becomes nothing

  

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LexM
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Thu Apr-03-03 12:38 PM

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62. "that's the closest to what i've believed"
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

since childhood. and i'd never heard of yoruba then

but when i read it i was happy to see someone agreed.

lol


_____________________________

"This is , the Americans have no right to do this," declared veiled Egyptian businesswoman Rawya Shaker. "This is colonialism, this is an aggression against innocent people. This is something even an infidel wouldn't do."

"The best way to 'our boys' is to create enough dissent that will pressure the leadership of this country to end this illegal and immoral war." ~okp HoChiGrimm

www.poetsagainstthewar.org





~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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Native2000
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Thu Apr-03-03 08:40 PM

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70. "i know huh?"
In response to Reply # 62


          

it feels like home. Like you kinda just forgot. that's what Yoruba feels like to me.

peace

Mahogany




the possibilities are endless...

Life is but a dream.

There are no answers, only choices.

I do not think, if one is a writer, that one escapes it by trying to become something else. One does not become something else: one becomes nothing

  

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T_Dawg
Member since Mar 06th 2003
184 posts
Wed Apr-02-03 06:04 AM

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37. "RE: Free will vs predestination, God's omniscience..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I am replying before reading the whole post, so I will remember what I want to say. (picks up L)

Ever see the Simpson halloween episode when Lisa accidently creates a whole society? I kinda think that, "God" created us, but that doesn't mean she ( I say she because only women have the miricle of creation) has all the answers.
On that note I am not a church going man, I am not a fan of the human race and men in power in particular. Men are fallible and more importantly, corruptible (sp?) and so they could use their "divinity" for personal reasons as we have seen time and time again.

I speak with God, and I believe God returns my calls. It is my path to righteousness all I can do is be a good man, and I will prosper.

"Why do bad things happen to good people?" "Why is evil so rampant?"
Because MAN is in control of this plain.

  

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iMaNinja
Member since Feb 24th 2003
88 posts
Wed Apr-02-03 10:25 AM

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45. "RE: Free will vs predestination, God's omniscience..."
In response to Reply # 37


          

im officially sick of this calling God "her" because only women have the miracle of whatever. whether women or men birth children is completely irrelevant to any "gender" that God would have... not that he has one anyway.

My point is we all know that God isnt a boy or girl anyway so why even bother messing it all up. I call God he because thats what it calls him in THE BIBLE
THE BASIS OF OUR FAITH. I think its only right to do the same. Of Course if you dont think The Bible is true then What you call your God is completely up to you.

And in reply to the rest of the post that im still reading.
If you think no one has a choice then whats the point of life. i'm sayin, no matter how you get to it you must end up concluding that we have a choice. even if you believe in predestination.

P.S. I dont hate women.

words can hardly say
anything worth mentioning
but we speak, we write.

  

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theGriddler
Member since Sep 29th 2002
1612 posts
Wed Apr-02-03 10:37 AM

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46. "RE: Free will vs predestination, God's omniscience..."
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

I figure it's like latin languages: when in doubt, just use the masculine. It's not equal in any way, but there is no respectful genderless word in english. "It" doesn't really work for a supreme deity.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Sometimes the first duty of intelligent men is the restatement of the obvious.-George Orwell

  

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Mau777
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Wed Apr-02-03 01:50 PM

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50. "I use the word..."
In response to Reply # 46
Wed Apr-02-03 01:58 PM

          

"SHIM". Both male and female energies in one

...and there's no separation btwn Shim and me in this incarnation.

...Gender is a thing of bodies, not of spirit.

Truth 2 U

---
If you release what is within u, what u release will save you. If you do not release what is within u, what u do not release will destroy u.

www.pitchblackgold.bandcamp.com

  

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T_Dawg
Member since Mar 06th 2003
184 posts
Thu Apr-03-03 09:55 AM

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55. "RE: Free will vs predestination, God's omniscience..."
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

>im officially sick of this calling God "her" because only
>women have the miracle of whatever. whether women or men
>birth children is completely irrelevant to any "gender" that
>God would have... not that he has one anyway.

Yes, children yes on this planet. Yet I didnot say women can create babies, just that they have the power to create life, which is the basis for my use of that languge.

>My point is we all know that God isnt a boy or girl anyway
>so why even bother messing it all up. I call God he because
>thats what it calls him in THE BIBLE
>THE BASIS OF OUR FAITH. I think its only right to do the
>same. Of Course if you dont think The Bible is true then
>What you call your God is completely up to you.

True, as I do not believe that the bible is correct, nor incorrect, but that it was written by man, and man may take creative license. Intentionally or not.

>And in reply to the rest of the post that im still reading.
>If you think no one has a choice then whats the point of
>life. i'm sayin, no matter how you get to it you must end up
>concluding that we have a choice. even if you believe in
>predestination.

True, I believe the path is set, and we make the choices, like a mouse running a maze. There is one correct path, but the choices to fail are granted as well, and observed

>P.S. I dont hate women.
yeah, women ROCK, like a hurricane

  

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Mau777
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Thu Apr-03-03 12:47 PM

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64. "RE: Free will vs predestination, God's omniscience..."
In response to Reply # 55


          

Yet I didnot say women
>can create babies, just that they have the power to create
>life, which is the basis for my use of that languge.
>
The masculine energy is the creative power. The feminine energy is the receptive and nurturing power.

Truth 2 U

---
If you release what is within u, what u release will save you. If you do not release what is within u, what u do not release will destroy u.

www.pitchblackgold.bandcamp.com

  

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TinkyWinky
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Wed Apr-02-03 06:21 AM

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38. "linearity/constancy of time"
In response to Reply # 0


          

tough notions to let go of, but physics tells us we can't hold onto them in this kind of question. think about the differences such a concept makes in the nature of your questioning....

:::::::::::::
"And I know what the fuck an option quarterback is. He's the black QB under six feet that ends up being converted to wide receiver once he's selected on day two of the NFL draft because he can't hit the ocean from the edge of a boat."

--

  

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theGriddler
Member since Sep 29th 2002
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Wed Apr-02-03 10:44 AM

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47. "RE: Free will vs predestination, God's omniscience..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I've always thought that omniscience cancels out free will, but I also think omnipotence cancels out free will too. If God is all powerful, the law of unintended consequences (that every action affects something else whether it is intentional or not) would affect all of his decisions. The only way to circumvent this would be that god would have to be omniscient, so that all of the consequences would be known by him. In my opinon, if there is a god in the judeo-christian/islamic sense, we would not have free will. I'll admit that my own ideas about theism are very vague, and seeing as I haven't had a millenium of thinkers working out the theological kinks of my own musings, it isn't very developed.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Sometimes the first duty of intelligent men is the restatement of the obvious.-George Orwell

  

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iMaNinja
Member since Feb 24th 2003
88 posts
Wed Apr-02-03 11:11 AM

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48. "RE: Free will vs predestination, God's omniscience..."
In response to Reply # 47


          

this discussion is meaningless without the assumption that everything in the Bible is true. Any faith not relying on that axiom is arbitrary.

I've never read anywhere in the Bible that no one has a choice, i mean if we actually dont have a choice why wouldnt God throw that in there too, its not like it matters cuz "we dont have a choice" right. Some of you arent Christians and dont really get this argument but there are Christians that believe everything in the bible is true and that no one has a choice, they're called Calvinists. Thats where the real argument is.

words can hardly say
anything worth mentioning
but we speak, we write.

  

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McDeezNuts
Member since Jun 03rd 2002
5663 posts
Thu Apr-03-03 03:16 AM

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52. "NO! Damn, closed minded a bit, are we?"
In response to Reply # 48


  

          

>this discussion is meaningless without the assumption that
>everything in the Bible is true. Any faith not relying on
>that axiom is arbitrary.

Can you open your mind just a bit? Christianity is not the only religion! It's possible to contemplate free will vs. predestination/omniscience of a divine being without believing in ANY organized religion and without any "holy book." Everyone has the same question to ponder about whether we have free will, whether they believe in some form of divine power or not.

"Any faith not relying on that axiom is arbitrary" - what the hell are you saying? This discussion is not exclusively Christian at all.

>I've never read anywhere in the Bible that no one has a
>choice, i mean if we actually dont have a choice why wouldnt
>God throw that in there too, its not like it matters cuz "we
>dont have a choice" right.

Some posters have provided verses from the Bible that support free will, and others have provided verses that suggest predestination.

>Some of you arent Christians and
>dont really get this argument

You don't have to be Christian to question free will.

>but there are Christians that
>believe everything in the bible is true and that no one has
>a choice, they're called Calvinists. Thats where the real
>argument is.

No, that's not the "real argument." That's just one viewpoint in this discussion.

  

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iMaNinja
Member since Feb 24th 2003
88 posts
Thu Apr-03-03 09:54 AM

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54. "RE: NO! Damn, closed minded a bit, are we?"
In response to Reply # 52


          

WHOA PAL
Dont call me close minded cuz im being logical.

>It's possible to contemplate free will vs. >predestination/omniscience of a divine being without believing >in ANY organized religion and without any "holy book."

of course it is possible to discuss it. i'm just saying its meaningless because without a common ground you wont end up anywhere. Heres a verse "Before Abraham was, "I AM" " that doesnt really make any sense and my point is that God doesnt make any sense. if you just assume theres a deity named God and want to figure out if there is free will or not you can end up anywhere depending on what you attribute to that God I wasnt trying to be closed minded just trying to establish a common ground.

>This discussion is not exclusively Christian at all.

alright maybe i miscommunicated but again what Im saying is that u need some common ground like Buddhist texts or the Quran or the Torah or something now what you're saying is that instead of picking something we should be able to pick everything and thats fine but if you dont assume something is true what do you use for reference can you assume "I think therefore I am" or not its like math u need to make assumptions.

>Some posters have provided verses from the Bible that support >free will, and others have provided verses that suggest >predestination.

You can always pull one verse out of the Bible that makes almost anyhting true. You have to look at it as a whole. Shit I can pull one verse out of the Bible that makes Bush look like hero.
Its all out of context if you dont analyze it as a whole.

>Some of you arent Christians and
>dont really get this argument

what i meant by that is that non CHristians might not understand THE ARGUMENT between other Christians. not that they cant understand the free will question. It kinda hurt when you called me close minded man cuz i wasnt tryin to come across that way at all or even sound condescending, before i became a Christian I wondered about all this shit for days on end but you cant ever really get anywhere because its all bigger than us.

i mean assuming there is no God I think there is no way we have free will anyway. but thats outside of this argument so i wont mention it.

Peace Man


words can hardly say
anything worth mentioning
but we speak, we write.

  

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McDeezNuts
Member since Jun 03rd 2002
5663 posts
Fri Apr-04-03 06:41 AM

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73. "Didn't mean to jump to conclusions..."
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

It just seemed like you were saying Christianity and the Bible as the only truth, etc., which is a viewpoint which I can respect, but one that is very closed-minded. That first sentence of yours was misleading until you explained yourself in your second post. Sorry if I jumped at you.

>of course it is possible to discuss it. i'm just saying its
>meaningless because without a common ground you wont end up
>anywhere.

I don't think it's meaningless. Even without common ground, you can put forth a lot of different ideas, some of which are in opposition. It still helps shed light on the matter. At least I think so anyway.

Heres a verse "Before Abraham was, "I AM" " that
>doesnt really make any sense and my point is that God doesnt
>make any sense. if you just assume theres a deity named God
>and want to figure out if there is free will or not you can
>end up anywhere depending on what you attribute to that God

That's true. But I'm not excluding anything from this discussion aside from the fact that there is some type of divine being (which was a caveat only because without a divine being, yes we have free will, conversation over). But it doesn't have to be the Christian God. In fact, the attributes of God are an important part of the discussion - is God omniscient? Does he know the future? If I answered those questions from the start, it would severely limit the discussion. So I am trying to be as open-minded as possible.

>I wasnt trying to be closed minded just trying to establish
>a common ground.

I understand your point, but I just didn't want to exclude any directions the discussion could go.

>alright maybe i miscommunicated but again what Im saying is
>that u need some common ground like Buddhist texts or the
>Quran or the Torah or something now what you're saying is
>that instead of picking something we should be able to pick
>everything and thats fine

That's what I wanted.

>but if you dont assume something
>is true what do you use for reference

Your point of reference is your own set of beliefs (although you could also play devil's advocate and present a different view too). I am curious about what other people's points of reference are, so it does belong here.

>You can always pull one verse out of the Bible that makes
>almost anyhting true.

That's true. And that's one of the things that bugs me about people so quick to find quotes. Then they think they've "proven" it.

>You have to look at it as a whole.

As a whole, it just doesn't make sense either. I think the Bible is flawed, and full of inconsistencies. There's this awesome book called "Don't Know Much about the Bible" which I've read, which debunks a lot of popular interpretations of the Bible. And it provides some understanding into the way things were in those times and how you have to interpret the Bible based on those standards and what things meant back then as opposed to our own standards and what things seem to mean to us today. Great book, I've been meaning to reread it really remember shit better.

>Its all out of context if you dont analyze it as a whole.

I think it's confusing even when analyzed as a whole.

>what i meant by that is that non CHristians might not
>understand THE ARGUMENT between other Christians. not that
>they cant understand the free will question.

Okay, I see now.

>It kinda hurt
>when you called me close minded man

Again, sorry man. I'm not trying to be that way.

>cuz i wasnt tryin to
>come across that way at all or even sound condescending,
>before i became a Christian I wondered about all this shit
>for days on end but you cant ever really get anywhere
>because its all bigger than us.

Yeah, I guess it was just a misunderstanding at first - your first reply was kind of short and I didn't get all of what you meant.

>Peace Man

Peace, thanks for participating in the discussion. Sorry if I was an ass. Misunderstandings are a bitch.

  

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iMaNinja
Member since Feb 24th 2003
88 posts
Sat Apr-05-03 04:16 AM

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84. "Question"
In response to Reply # 73


          

How much of the Bible do you believe and where do you draw the line at what to toss out and what to keep?
I used to wonder about this alot so I know how u feel when you're sayin this stuff but to me i kinda realized that if you can toss out a part of the Bible it kinda makes it all invalid cuz now theres doubt. but im just wonderin what you think about that

words can hardly say
anything worth mentioning
but we speak, we write.

  

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McDeezNuts
Member since Jun 03rd 2002
5663 posts
Mon Apr-07-03 02:07 AM

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98. "RE: Question"
In response to Reply # 84


  

          

>How much of the Bible do you believe and where do you draw
>the line at what to toss out and what to keep?

To be honest, I don't know the Bible well enough to say how much I believe. I believe what makes sense, not only to my head, but also to my heart/soul. I also don't accept a church's interpretation of something without thinking it out for myself.

>I used to wonder about this alot so I know how u feel when
>you're sayin this stuff but to me i kinda realized that if
>you can toss out a part of the Bible it kinda makes it all
>invalid cuz now theres doubt. but im just wonderin what you
>think about that

Somewhere else in this thread I talked about having faith without questioning it and without having any doubt- I think that's misguided, and isn't truly faith. To me, in order to put your heart and faith into something, you have to question it so that you can decide for yourself that it is the right answer. If someone is afraid to question one of their core beliefs, what does that tell you? They might be afraid that deep down, it could be wrong. It's hard for me to believe in anything without a doubt unless I have solid proof that it's the only right answer. I think you have to question everything.

You're assuming that by saying the Bible is not perfect, that makes the whole book invalid. That's no true though. I think the Bible is divinely inspired, but is limited by man's ability to interpret, and thus is flawed. And aside from man's ability to interpret, what about the possibility that over the milennia, certain men have put their own agendas into the mix and intentionally mistranslated/misinterpreted what God wanted the Bible to say? For example, women's place in the Bible is very subservient- did God intend it that way, or did the men who wrote the Bible take aims to make sure it came out that way?

  

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iMaNinja
Member since Feb 24th 2003
88 posts
Mon Apr-07-03 06:47 AM

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104. "RE: Question"
In response to Reply # 98


          

see im not sayin dont doubt... cuz im goin through a big period of doubt right now its like a routine for me though. and yeah i agree that faith without reason is the substance of ignorance. But at the same time theres no way to logically PROVE theres a God so you have to take a big leap of faith there and hope that when you're coming up with reasons you believe in God you're not bullshittin yourself.

About the Truth of the Bible thing what I finally settled on (which im not saying everyone should settle on) was that if God was gonna give us the Bible as a way to live he would protect it somehow and keep it perfect wouldnt he do at least that because wihtout that all faith becomes really confusing so I just assume that he'll hold me to every word of that book. It might sound naive but I dont think it is. As far as people putting their own agendas into it i dont see why they wouldnt actually make the Bible agree with them if they were gonna change it. You name me one denomination or sect of Christianity that actualy follows the Bible. Cu z even though the Catholics put it together why does the Bible support almost none of the Catholic ceremonies, priesthoods and organizations. Maybe i just made all this shit up though i dont know im as confused as anybody.
Peace

words can hardly say
anything worth mentioning
but we speak, we write.

  

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osoclasi
Charter member
993 posts
Thu Apr-03-03 10:02 AM

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56. "other important scriptures/predestination"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Isaiah 4
"Remember the former things long past,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like Me,
(10)*Declaring the end from the beginning,*
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, 'My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';

God declares the beginning from the end and accomplishes all for his pleasure.


Isaiah 45:6
That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun
That there is no one besides Me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other,


Isaiah 4
The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these.


Proverbs 21:1
The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD;
He turns it wherever He wishes.





------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

  

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LexM
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28342 posts
Thu Apr-03-03 12:02 PM

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60. "i'll read the replies, but my 1st inclination"
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Apr-03-03 12:39 PM

  

          

is that god is always present and always aware.

but while we do have "free will", the future is not set in stone. we are constantly learning things about ourselves and others and reevaluating life in the course of gaining that knowledge. we can take an infinite number of roads towards/on our (divine) path or ignore it altogether.

i think that we all have a certain purpose in life--actually more like several intertwining purposes depending on where we are in life. and i think that the reason why people have so many difficulties is because they ignore the paths that are laid out for them.

in other words, god put you here for a reason. you're here to learn/remember what that reason is and fulfill it.

if you stray from that, there are consequences.

_____________________________

"This is , the Americans have no right to do this," declared veiled Egyptian businesswoman Rawya Shaker. "This is colonialism, this is an aggression against innocent people. This is something even an infidel wouldn't do."

"The best way to 'our boys' is to create enough dissent that will pressure the leadership of this country to end this illegal and immoral war." ~okp HoChiGrimm

www.poetsagainstthewar.org





~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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raymond_
Member since Jan 28th 2003
103 posts
Thu Apr-03-03 03:11 PM

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65. "Hey I didnt read the whole thread but......"
In response to Reply # 60


          

Many brilliant medieval philosophers have answered these questions this way, (these philosophers include Anselm, Boethius, but most famous Aquinas etc)

Free Will and Divine foreknowledge (that god knows the outcome of future events) are not mutually exclusive. God knows the outcome of events and is responsible for them in that he crafted humans, BUT, when he crafted us, he crafted us with free will and thus he gave us the ability to make our own decisions. So, in one sense God is a cause of future events, insomuch as he created our nature, but he is only a remote cause because he leaves it up to us to make the decision. Our own free will is what they call the proximate cause, i.e it is the reason I decied to drink my coke right now. Thus, God is A Cause, but not THE Cause.

Another reason that future contingency and God's foreknowledge are compatible is as follows:


When people argue that because God knows the outcome of future events they must necessarily happen, they usually fail to realize that in their explanation they are assuming the fallacy of trying to personify god. Its hard for us to understand how Divine Foreknowledge and free will are really compatible because for us things happen in a temporal context, meaning we experience past, future, and present.

To God, and as is inherent to the nature of God, He experiences things in eternity, which is to say that he doesn't experience things in time. To God everything is happening at once. Imagine what you would consider the ever-fleeting moment of the present. What you did 1/100 of a second ago is the past and will never happen again, and what has not happened is the future and thus it has not happened. For God all events are experienced simultaneously. They are all in the present. He experiences your birth and your death at exactly the same time. He experiences the rise and fall of the roman empire all at the same time and at the same time as your birth ( you get the idea).

Thus, it is true that God does know the outcome of future events. Nevertheless that does not mean that we have no free will. It is simply that God knows that some things happen out of contingency and some happen out of necessity. Simply because God knows that I am going to look at porn tonight doesn't mean that it is not my decision to look at porn. It is my decision, it just so happens that God experiences my choice, and understands that I had options of looking and not looking and looking is the choice i made


Thus, I think it is safe to say that God's foreknowledge of an event does not mean that it happened out of necessity. It does however mean that it necessarily will happen, which is different from the former assertion because it just means that what God knows to happen is definitely going to happen. However, as human we don't know future events, and we choose them using our own God given free will. So remember, if you masturbate tonight, God knows your masturbating, but he knows you just as easily could have not masturbated - it was up to you.

Thats how i think certain (Aquinas) philosophers would answer this question, (minus my own foul examples)

Lord: it is time. The summer was immense.
Lay your shadow on the sundials
and let loose the wind in the fields.

Bid the last fruits to be full;
give them another two more southerly days,
press them to ripeness, and chase
the last sweetness into th

  

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Mau777
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Fri Apr-04-03 10:32 AM

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80. "The Best Response Thus Far"
In response to Reply # 65


          

>When people argue that because God knows the outcome of
>future events they must necessarily happen, they usually
>fail to realize that in their explanation they are assuming
>the fallacy of trying to personify god. Its hard for us to
>understand how Divine Foreknowledge and free will are really
>compatible because for us things happen in a temporal
>context, meaning we experience past, future, and present.
>
>To God, and as is inherent to the nature of God, He
>experiences things in eternity, which is to say that he
>doesn't experience things in time. To God everything is
>happening at once. Imagine what you would consider the
>ever-fleeting moment of the present. What you did 1/100 of a
>second ago is the past and will never happen again, and what
>has not happened is the future and thus it has not happened.
>For God all events are experienced simultaneously. They are
>all in the present. He experiences your birth and your death
>at exactly the same time. He experiences the rise and fall
>of the roman empire all at the same time and at the same
>time as your birth ( you get the idea).
>
>Thus, it is true that God does know the outcome of future
>events. Nevertheless that does not mean that we have no free
>will. It is simply that God knows that some things happen
>out of contingency and some happen out of necessity. Simply
>because God knows that I am going to look at porn tonight
>doesn't mean that it is not my decision to look at porn. It
>is my decision, it just so happens that GOD EXPERIENCES MY
>CHOICE(empahsis mau777), and understands that I had options of looking and
>not looking and looking is the choice i made

(Haha...very good...and there is no "right" or "wrong" in your decision and definitely no "heaven" or "hell" because of it.)
>
>Thus, I think it is safe to say that God's foreknowledge of
>an event does not mean that it happened out of necessity. It
>does however mean that it necessarily will happen, which is
>different from the former assertion because it just means
>that what God knows to happen is definitely going to happen.
>However, as human we don't know future events, and we choose
>them using our own God given free will. So remember, if you
>masturbate tonight, God knows your masturbating, but he
>knows you just as easily could have not masturbated - it was
>up to you.
>
>Thats how i think certain (Aquinas) philosophers would
>answer this question, (minus my own foul examples)

...Great response and excellent examples!!!

...There still rests the issue that seems to be plaguing this entire post, the issue of this term "god"and how it's being used. You are MUCH CLOSER to the nature of the subject than the other posters, but the perspective is still polaric(One Omni-attributed God and humans)

...Try this, start at the second paragraph and go down. Wherever you said "God", replace that with the term 'My Higher Self' and where you say "future events", place 'my' in front of it....Also, where you say "he", place the word 'shim'(both male and female in one). Just give it a try and see how it hits you.

Truth 2 U



---
If you release what is within u, what u release will save you. If you do not release what is within u, what u do not release will destroy u.

www.pitchblackgold.bandcamp.com

  

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raymond_
Member since Jan 28th 2003
103 posts
Fri Apr-04-03 04:57 PM

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82. "RE: The Best Response Thus Far"
In response to Reply # 80


          

but the perspective is still
>polaric(One Omni-attributed God and humans)
>

Point well taken. Yeah, my whole argument/explanation regarding free will and God's foreknowledge assumes (and rests on) the nature of God to be that which the Judeo-Christian and Muslim faiths commonly conceive Him to be. i.e omniscient, omnipresent, immutable, infinite, all-powerful (could God create a rock too heavy for God to lift? always love that one)

On one hand it could be looked at as inherently flawed because it does rest on a certain conception of the nature of God. But one could also argue that (if there is a God) God could be no other way than that which Western religion generally thinks of him to be.

The most no-frills (perhaps one might say non-dogmatic) reason for believing in God is that the universe could not have been created without an uncaused cause. And, if you do except this you are saying that God is all actuality and no potentiality. Well one implication of this is that it could be validly proven that such a belief leads to the conclusion that God is immutable. How can something with no potentiality change? And if he is an immutable uncaused cause than he must be infinite. And, if he is infinite, and he at least initiated the expansion of the universe, then he is at the very least a remote cause of all things insomuch as his actions eventually created everything. So, perhaps he is all-powerful. See, as long as you hold a belief in God, even if its in a very non-dogmatic way such as God as a first cause, it is possible to be led to the assertions that most Western religion claims......

Thus, one could argue that anybody who recognizes God but does not recognize Him as having these attributes such as omnipotence, simply does not have the correct conception of God.

What ( I think) this means is that, maybe (and this really is a maybe) one cannot answer this question properly without having this polaric notion of God...because this polaric notion of God, if we are assuming there is God, is perhaps more accurate than others. (as a good Kuhnian I erased true and correct from that last part)



peace.







Lord: it is time. The summer was immense.
Lay your shadow on the sundials
and let loose the wind in the fields.

Bid the last fruits to be full;
give them another two more southerly days,
press them to ripeness, and chase
the last sweetness into th

  

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Mau777
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Sat Apr-05-03 11:03 AM

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86. "RE: The Best Response Thus Far"
In response to Reply # 82


          


>
>On one hand it could be looked at as inherently flawed
>because it does rest on a certain conception of the nature
>of God.

It IS inherently flawed.

But one could also argue that (if there is a God)
>God could be no other way than that which Western religion
>generally thinks of him to be.

Whoever would make that argument would likely be a racist.

>
>The most no-frills (perhaps one might say non-dogmatic)
>reason for believing in God is that the universe could not
>have been created without an uncaused cause. And, if you do
>except this you are saying that God is all actuality and no
>potentiality. Well one implication of this is that it could
>be validly proven that such a belief leads to the conclusion
>that God is immutable. How can something with no
>potentiality change? And if he is an immutable uncaused
>cause than he must be infinite. And, if he is infinite, and
>he at least initiated the expansion of the universe, then he
>is at the very least a remote cause of all things insomuch
>as his actions eventually created everything. So, perhaps he
>is all-powerful.

"the Creator" is a term I hear people use who don't want to say "god". But the creator of what? This physical universe? That creator is WAAAY beyond comprehension from this level of experience and is not even worth getting caught up trying to figure out. That creator does not demand worship or praise(like humans/aliens) or answers prayers. I envision the relationship akin to a person who created a self sustaining flower garden. The person doesn't demand anything from the plants and insects and minerals. And the plants and insects would be wasting their time attempting to figure out the life of the gardener...

...There is a more personal creator, who also possesses the "omni-attributes", but possesses them in relation to our unique paths. That creator is our Higher Self(HS). The TRUE SELF that CHOSE to create our current, "past" and "future" incarnations for the experiences that they provide.

See, as long as you hold a belief in God,
>even if its in a very non-dogmatic way such as God as a
>first cause, it is possible to be led to the assertions that
>most Western religion claims......

That's true, that's why that term "god" sucks ass.

>Thus, one could argue that anybody who recognizes God but
>does not recognize Him as having these attributes such as
>omnipotence, simply does not have the correct conception of
>God.
>
>What ( I think) this means is that, maybe (and this really
>is a maybe) one cannot answer this question properly without
>having this polaric notion of God...because this polaric
>notion of God, if we are assuming there is God, is perhaps
>more accurate than others. (as a good Kuhnian I erased true
>and correct from that last part)

The question can be delt with without the use of polaric notions. But it does take having a greater awareness of the nature of 'spirit' and how it pertains to physical reality and at the very least, being able to perceive other possiblities than what the judeo-christian/muslim paradigm offers.
>
>
>
>peace.

Truth 2 U

---
If you release what is within u, what u release will save you. If you do not release what is within u, what u do not release will destroy u.

www.pitchblackgold.bandcamp.com

  

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raymond_
Member since Jan 28th 2003
103 posts
Sat Apr-05-03 01:10 PM

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88. "..."
In response to Reply # 86


          

See now we're off topic. The question thats being asked, in the fashion its being asked, almost presupposes that you hold some conventional belief in God. From what I can gather from this higher self stuff, your (if you have one)conception of God is pretty abstract and probably wouldn't be considered conventional.

I don't see this dichotomy between self and higher self. It seems to new-agey for me. And, if i was willing to see such a dichotomy it would definitely correspond with a certain belief in God, i.e. dualism, mind vs body...soul vs material needs


But the compatibility of Divine Foreknowledge and free will are predominately questions that are taken up in the sphere of certain religions. A buddhist wouldn't ask such a question because they (and there are alot of different types of buddhism) don't believe that the Buddha has a hands on approach. Shoot, Buddhism wasnt even a religion if you had asked The Buddha. It became so when years after his death, folks progressively deified him....So its not that strange to answer such questions from a viewpoint that understands God a particular way.

As for God being an uncaused cause, people call God the creator because that is what he (allegedly) did. He created. The strongest (although still worrysome) logical proofs concerning the existence of God rest on premises such as there is a first cause, there is a first mover etc. So, its not that such arguments shouldnt be mentioned because they are too abstract. God itself is too abstract to know definitely. I introduced this conception of God to show that even minimal, seemingly non-polaric notions of God can lead to dogmatic interpretations. Thus one could say that anything is inherently flawed by subjectivity of conception. It is simply easy, empty and nihilistic to do so.

I also don't agree with the racist part. Simply because somebody tries to construct a logical proof that supports the belief that one conception of God is stronger than others does not mean that they are racist. They just must realize that it is just that- a logical proof. It is when people try to use such argumentation negatively that i see a problem i.e. religious intolerance and/or forcing their beliefs or will on others
peace.

Lord: it is time. The summer was immense.
Lay your shadow on the sundials
and let loose the wind in the fields.

Bid the last fruits to be full;
give them another two more southerly days,
press them to ripeness, and chase
the last sweetness into th

  

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Mau777
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Sun Apr-06-03 11:03 AM

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90. "completely within the topic.......minus the big 3 view"
In response to Reply # 88


          

>See now we're off topic. The question thats being asked, in
>the fashion its being asked, almost presupposes that you
>hold some conventional belief in God.

ALMOST presupposes and that's only because of the perspective of the poster. We can move through his/her view and get to the root of the question which is how the omni-attributes of a "higher being" relate to the "freewill" of man. Since conventional perspective is flawed, let's toss it and move on to a different way of approaching the topic.


From what I can gather
>from this higher self stuff, your (if you have
>one)conception of God is pretty abstract and probably
>wouldn't be considered conventional.

Nowhere near conventional. And from my perspective, it's not abstract at all. It does take an awareness of a few other concepts and for someone who has been holding or is still holding the conventional overview, it would be difficult to grasp.

>I don't see this dichotomy between self and higher self. It
>seems to new-agey for me.

And "god experiencing our choices" is not "new agey"? You are on point with most of what you said in your original thread. I wouldn't have said "Best response thus far" if i did think so. But as i mentioned, it was still within the realm of polarity. My recommending that you substitute higher self for the word god, was to eliminate the separtion and move beyond the realm of polarity and that damn word "god", because the nature of reality is MUCH more complex, but it's not abstract.....We have our incarnated self in 2003(mau777 & raymond in time/space). We also have our higher self(Who we really are) residing in a higher density(beyond time/space). The higher self is the total composite of all time/space incarnations that are all happening simultaneously.

I'll attempt to give you a visual...Imagine a jellyfish hovering in the air and dipping thousands of its tendrils into the water. The air would be 4th density and higher(No Time) and the water would be 3rd density(linear time/space). The body of the jellyfish is the higher self, the end of each tendril is the incarnated self. Raymond is at the end of one tendril dipped in linear year 2003. There are other tendrils ends(incarnations) dipped all throughout the linear timeline. All have different experiences, levels of spiritual awareness and access to the knowledge possessed by the jellyfish body(higher self).

And, if i was willing to see such
>a dichotomy it would definitely correspond with a certain
>belief in God,i.e. dualism, mind vs body...soul vs material
>needs

There IS KNOWLEDGE concerning these topics and it IS possible to move beyond the box of belief into experience and knowing. But again, it takes saying "I'm tired of the bullshit" and attempting to perceive 'unconventional' possibilities to do it.


>
>As for God being an uncaused cause, people call God the
>creator because that is what he (allegedly) did. He created.
>The strongest (although still worrysome) logical proofs
>concerning the existence of God rest on premises such as
>there is a first cause, there is a first mover etc. So, its
>not that such arguments shouldnt be mentioned because they
>are too abstract. God itself is too abstract to know
>definitely. I introduced this conception of God to show that
>even minimal, seemingly non-polaric notions of God can lead
>to dogmatic interpretations. Thus one could say that
>anything is inherently flawed by subjectivity of conception.
>It is simply easy, empty and nihilistic to do so.

It is pointless attempting to figure out the consciousness that created this physical universe. That info would likely have no effect on daily life. There are much more immediate concerns and knowns to become aware of and they pertain to knowing who we really are and the nature of now experience here. Throwing out the word "god" can greatly assist in becoming more objective in dealing with this.

>
> I also don't agree with the racist part. Simply because
>somebody tries to construct a logical proof that supports
>the belief that one conception of God is stronger than
>others does not mean that they are racist.

No it doesn't, but that's not what i got from what you said...

"But one could also argue that (if there is a God)
God could be NO OTHER WAY than that which Western religion
generally thinks of him to be."

...(IMO)"No other way" doesn't sound like something someone who is just trying to support their BELIEF(NOT KNOWLEDGE)would say. But i can easily envision some missionary shouting "there's no other way" while cutting the heads of those "savages" with a sword in one hand and a bible in the other.

They just must
>realize that it is just that- a logical proof. It is when
>people try to use such argumentation negatively that i see a
>problem i.e. religious intolerance and/or forcing their
>beliefs or will on others

Much like, western religion and theology, western science, western illusions, western military, western etc. has done since the west came up. Sheeeit, how do you think the west came up? It sure wasn't by offering logical proof of anything.

....one mo' thang, none of what i present is "new age" shit by any means.


>peace.

...the dialog is appreciated.

Truth 2 U

---
If you release what is within u, what u release will save you. If you do not release what is within u, what u do not release will destroy u.

www.pitchblackgold.bandcamp.com

  

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raymond_
Member since Jan 28th 2003
103 posts
Sun Apr-06-03 01:02 PM

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91. "RE: completely within the topic.......minus the big 3 v"
In response to Reply # 90


          

yeah, you're right. saying " no other way" in my original post was too strong, i didn't mean it quite the way it could easily be perceived, but i should have used more conservative wording.

And, now that you have explained your theory (albeit condensed), it doesn't seem as abstract as i had imagined it to be.

I personally don't even know if there really is a God, a higher self, anything. For all i know this big bang was initiated by the collapse of a star in a parallel universe and we are just here along in our own existential hell with no hopes of salvation and only a final death to look forward to. My point: that I'm not nearly as religious as my point of view comes off as. I argued from that point of view because I'm fairly well oriented in medieval philosophy and the (alleged) nature of God was a very exhaustively and intricately covered topic in that time period.

I appreciate the dialogue as well. peace.



Lord: it is time. The summer was immense.
Lay your shadow on the sundials
and let loose the wind in the fields.

Bid the last fruits to be full;
give them another two more southerly days,
press them to ripeness, and chase
the last sweetness into th

  

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Mau777
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Mon Apr-07-03 07:52 AM

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106. "RE: completely within the topic.......minus the big 3 v"
In response to Reply # 91


          

I personally don't even know if there really is a God, a
>higher self, anything.

Trust me, there IS a higher self. That's the ONLY "god" we should be concerned with connecting with. Fuck the alien god(s).

>
>I appreciate the dialogue as well. peace.

Peace and Truth 2 U..........Check your inbox.

---
If you release what is within u, what u release will save you. If you do not release what is within u, what u do not release will destroy u.

www.pitchblackgold.bandcamp.com

  

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LexM
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Sat Apr-05-03 04:01 AM

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83. "this is important"
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

>When people argue that because God knows the outcome of
>future events they must necessarily happen, they usually
>fail to realize that in their explanation they are assuming
>the fallacy of trying to personify god. Its hard for us to
>understand how Divine Foreknowledge and free will are really
>compatible because for us things happen in a temporal
>context, meaning we experience past, future, and present.
>
>To God, and as is inherent to the nature of God, He
>experiences things in eternity, which is to say that he
>doesn't experience things in time. To God everything is
>happening at once. Imagine what you would consider the
>ever-fleeting moment of the present. What you did 1/100 of a
>second ago is the past and will never happen again, and what
>has not happened is the future and thus it has not happened.
>For God all events are experienced simultaneously. They are
>all in the present. He experiences your birth and your death
>at exactly the same time. He experiences the rise and fall
>of the roman empire all at the same time and at the same
>time as your birth ( you get the idea).

getting into a discussion about what god does or doesn't do and forgetting this makes things virtually pointless....even though it's an easy trap to slip into

the over-personification of god is one of the things i don't like about the "big 3" religions. god isn't SUPPOSED to be "jealous" or condemning...god is (or should be) above all that. especially when that jealousy & judgement is over the obedience to a set of rules--many of which are very arbitrary and pertain to very particular cultural/social/philosphical situations.

that's not to say there isn't some truth within those belief systems....i believe there is.

but

...yeah.

_____________________________

"This is , the Americans have no right to do this," declared veiled Egyptian businesswoman Rawya Shaker. "This is colonialism, this is an aggression against innocent people. This is something even an infidel wouldn't do."

"The best way to 'our boys' is to create enough dissent that will pressure the leadership of this country to end this illegal and immoral war." ~okp HoChiGrimm

www.poetsagainstthewar.org





~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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Mau777
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Sat Apr-05-03 11:14 AM

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87. "RE: this is important"
In response to Reply # 83


          


>
>the over-personification of god is one of the things i don't
>like about the "big 3" religions. god isn't SUPPOSED to be
>"jealous" or condemning...god is (or should be) above all
>that. especially when that jealousy & judgement is over the
>obedience to a set of rules--many of which are very
>arbitrary and pertain to very particular
>cultural/social/philosphical situations.

That's what's hella funny about the whole omni-attributes being given to this Judeo-Christian/muslim "god". You don't even have to go beyond the first few chapters of Genesis to see that this "god" possesses NONE of the Oomni-attributes. How many questions did this "all-knowing" being ask Adam? What's even more funny is hearing the justification for it. "He was testing him." .....HA!!!
>
>that's not to say there isn't some truth within those belief
>systems....i believe there is.
>
>but
>
>...yeah.
>

Exactly.

Truth 2 U

---
If you release what is within u, what u release will save you. If you do not release what is within u, what u do not release will destroy u.

www.pitchblackgold.bandcamp.com

  

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freeScheme
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199 posts
Thu Apr-03-03 05:17 PM

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66. "No answer but,"
In response to Reply # 0


          

You can make up some models that work with God and free will...

One can think that God does not exist in a temporal universe like we do. So God sees everything that will ever happen at all "times" (although that is not an appropriate word). It's as if God was looking at all of the frames of a movie at once. Now, thinking of it this way... just because God knows everything that will happen in this movie at once does not mean that he authored the entire movie. Ok, yes, in this case he did author most of the movie, but this is clearly not implied by the fact that he can see it all.

So, if we have free will, God, with the power to see our whole lives at once would know everything we ever do. But the question of whether God sees what we do before we do it is not appropriate because God doesn't travel through time like we do... God is constant at all times.

And I'm sure there are many more complicated models including special relativity and quantum mechanics (very interesting for free will) that could be explained, but not going to go there.

  

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unknownone
Member since Sep 14th 2002
1000 posts
Thu Apr-03-03 07:56 PM

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69. "God is omniscient NOT omnipotent..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

Conclusion arrived at after 4 years of Jesuit instruction at a school of higher learning as a Theology major...

If there even is a "God"/"god"...

  

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osoclasi
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993 posts
Fri Apr-04-03 08:34 AM

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75. "RE: God is omniscient NOT omnipotent..."
In response to Reply # 69


          

>Conclusion arrived at after 4 years of Jesuit instruction at
>a school of higher learning as a Theology major...
>
>If there even is a "God"/"god"...

Response: I would disagree with you here, scripture makes it clear that God is omnipotent. If you no longer believe in God then that is another topic.

Genesis 18:14
"Is anything too difficult for the LORD ? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son."

Luke 1:37
"For nothing will be impossible with God."

2 Corinthians 6:18
"And I will be a father to you,
And you shall be sons and daughters to Me,"
Says the Lord Almighty. (Gk pantokrator)

I understand if you do not believe in God, but I don't think that you can arrive too such a view from scripture.


------------
En arche en 'o logos, kai 'o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en logos

  

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Kozmikblak
Member since Sep 10th 2002
1154 posts
Fri Apr-04-03 09:14 AM

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79. "RE: Free will vs predestination, God's omniscience..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Slight variant from original post. But let's try this.

If man was given free will by God making us unique from other sentient beings created (Angelic Beings agreeable & disagreeable, no choice) Maybe we are not meant to choose but somehow learn to create a balance of these extremes within ourselves.

Something like the moving "The Dark Crystal". The two extremes symbiotic and when brought together in perfect balance Creates a new and highly enlightened being.

--------------
"I don't blame Tiger Woods, but I overstand the mental poison that's even worse than drugs" -nas poison

"For trees to grow in Brooklyn seeds need to be planted. I asked, "can you feel it?" and the crowd left me stranded" -Talib kweli

"Hip Hop, a way of life it doesn't tell you how to raise a child or treat a wife" -Q-tip A tribe called Quest

"...Cats sip champagne to toast death and pain like slaves on a ship talking about who has the flyest chain" -Talib Kweli Black Star

"We're the renegade we're the people with our own philosophy, we change the course of history. Everyday people like you and me." Afrika Bambaataa and the Soulsonic force Renegades of funk

"There's a war goin on outside no man is safe from...You can run but you can't hide forever" -Mobb Deep

"The children in the street no longer seek 300 and 6-0 degrees, they park they minds at 1 oh 6 and freeze" -Pos-Freedom Train

"Devil and nigga are the same to me." -Nettrice

"it's wack to me when the beat is more hype than the M.C. cuz what he is saying

  

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freeScheme
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Sat Apr-05-03 07:51 AM

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85. "God body.."
In response to Reply # 0


          

maybe the universe is like God's body. We all live inside of his body.

I can make sure that I take care of my own body. I can help my body grow and stay healthy and strong. I can kill a particular part of my body or my whole body. But I can't instruct every individual cell how to grow. They grow in relation to how I treat them, but not specifically how I plan.

It is the same for God. He provides the nurturing that will let us grow, but when it comes to individual growth we are free.

  

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Allah
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89. "The Universe is my Body, BUT"
In response to Reply # 85


  

          

I do have a play, its called Mathematics.

_______________________
"Arm Leg Leg Arm Hate." c/o desus
_______________________
Divine Ruler
http://www.facebook.com/divineruler
__gigs__
__stuff__

  

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freeScheme
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Sun Apr-06-03 03:03 PM

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92. "RE: The Universe is my Body, BUT"
In response to Reply # 89


          

um... yeah
NEXT

  

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Nettrice
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Sun Apr-06-03 03:42 PM

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93. "There is no spoon"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I've said this before but I mean that there are no real parameters. I do believe that there is a universal flow, so to speak. Most people really don't have free will. Our will is controlled by our circle of influence, or how we're conditioned from birth. We live based on action-reaction and on a set program. Many of us are no longer connected or aware of the universal flow.

An omniscient being (God) would know all there is to know about everything in the world including the laws. With this knowledge he/she could predict the future. But God is a force, an energy force, not a being. We are beings, we are created with a purpose. We are not omniscient but there are other ways to see the future. When know a glass will break before it hits the ground if it falls a certain way. Following natural laws we can know what certain things will do even if the future does not exist. We have or seek to know but God does not.

I think the minute we even consider that God is a being like we are but on a higher plan of knowledge we are then determined to place parameters on reality and belief. That doesn't mean it's real or true.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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Nettrice
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94. "More on this"
In response to Reply # 93


  

          

The reason I like the statement "There is no spoon" is not because I love the movie "The Matrix" rather I like the determination that we need to be cautious not to place too much importance on images or what we see reflected (self). Most of what we see and what we know are illusions.

Many Buddhists believe that "the illusory nature of the world consists of our knowledge of the world." The concrete world is an illusion. Our views and perceptions of this illusory world do not match reality itself. We place parameters on the world around us. This is the spoon, so to speak, but these parameters are false. We seek to be God's reflection, to be made in His image but which is the illusion? When we look into a mirror only one thing is real. The other acts based on what they perceive is real. Two people could look into the same mirror but what each describes is totally different or the same based on conditioning. This ties into this concept of free will and omniscience.

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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murph25
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Sun Apr-06-03 09:24 PM

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95. "My perspective on free will..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Free will is an illusion. But I don't think you need to presuppose the existence of a God in order to reject the notion of free will. I know this breaks from the premise presented in the original post, but I think it may be a valuable perspective on the free-will question, even though it doesnt speak directly to the relationship between God and man. Im a both a determinist and an agnostic. I could answer the three questions posed in the original post about God and free will, but to do so I would have to adopt a set of assumptions that I dont normally hold. Many brilliant Christian philosophers have tackled the issue over the centuries, and some were able to reconcile the apparent incongruence between a free will and predetermination quite well in their work. I wont attempt to do that here, simply because it isnt MY frame of reference and I suspect that I would bastardize their ideas if I were to attempt to parrot their arguments. Instead, I will address the issue of free will head on from my own frame of reference, as I dont intend to argue FOR free will by the absence of divinity, but AGAINST free will, regardless of Gods existence.

My touchstone for intellectual clarity happens to be B.F. Skinner. In his world view, some kind of choice may exist, but ultimately, it is never really as free as we would like to believe. Our behaviors are the result of our instinctual biological processes combined with a lifetime of conditioning interactions with our environment. Thats about it. We are not the authors of our own destiny were more like rats in a maze.

Now I do think the belief in free will is an illusion that serves people well sometimes. Maybe simply believing we ARE making a choice helps us to choose more wisely, and more carefully. As human beings, we certainly can look back at what we did and talk about our choices, but as biological beings on this planet, we are all subject to a set of relatively simple behavioral laws that can explain most of those choices. In many cases these laws actually explain our behavior better than we can. If you were asked why did you just do that, to answer I chose to seems to me like an inadequate explanation. But placing the locus of control within the self can force people to be held accountable for their choices, which can be a very useful thing, especially when dealing with choices that are harmful to other people (i.e. someone choosing to commit murder). This sort of morality becomes problematic when you take away that locus of control, yet if you look closely enough at any situation, Id say human choice is in essence an illusory concept. Not that it is necessarily a bad concept to have, just that its based on this fictional idea of control.

Here's one behavioral model for free will - a rat is in a box that has two levers which he can push. One results in the delivery of reinforcement (i.e. a food pellet) and the other results in punishment (lets say a mild electrical shock). The rat in this situation can "choose" to press one of the levers. As the experimenter, we may not know which one he is going to press at first. But after being presented with this choice repeatedly, the rat will start to push ONLY the lever that delivers the reinforcement and NEVER push the lever that punishes him. At this point, when we put the rat into the box, does he still have a choice between the two levers, or has his behavior now become predetermined? Obviously, the rat would represent us and the box would be the universe we exist in. The question of who made this box is an altogether different one (one I dont have an answer to), but you dont need to answer it to figure out whether or not the rat has free will. Certainly, this rat CAN push either lever. But, he wont. And neither do we.

Some people find the idea of having no free will to be disheartening. But, I don't feel that way at all. I think that believing I might somehow have ultimate control over my actions was a foolhardy assumption, and its one that I have gladly abandoned in favor of a more empirically supported world-view. That doesn't mean I'm going to give up on life or even behave differently than I did before adopting my deterministic philosophy. Ultimately, I am still that rat in the box, and I will continue to push the same lever, whether or not I know the reason I'm pushing it. Our beliefs are rather poor predictors of our behavior anyway.

peace,
murph

  

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Pinko_Panther
Member since Dec 11th 2002
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Sun Apr-06-03 09:50 PM

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96. "RE: Free will vs predestination, God's omniscience..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I am quite offended that you tell atheists not to participate in this argument regarding free will. I, for one, am an atheist who not only does not believe in god but also I do not believe that we have free will either. I can discuss that further if you wish but "people who don't believe in god are not allowed to participate". So keep me posted.

Secondly, the originator of this thread at some point made the assinine remark that "not believing in a god makes the universe easier to explain". I think you have it backwards. The belief in a "divine" power is only necessary because we don't not have the complete means of explaining the universe. It is the "god believers" that believe in god in order to simplify the universe.

********************************************
"If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito."

  

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McDeezNuts
Member since Jun 03rd 2002
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Mon Apr-07-03 01:56 AM

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97. "participate if you want to..."
In response to Reply # 96


  

          

>I am quite offended that you tell atheists not to
>participate in this argument regarding free will.

I wasn't trying to be offensive. I just thought if I didn't make that disclaimer, a bunch of atheists would come in and say, "There's no God, yes we have free will, end of discussion." And that's just not helpful or constructive. Basically, I set up some premises and some questions. By not believing in a divine being, much of the discussion does not apply to you. But feel free to present what you believe.

>I, for
>one, am an atheist who not only does not believe in god but
>also I do not believe that we have free will either. I can
>discuss that further if you wish but "people who don't
>believe in god are not allowed to participate". So keep me
>posted.

This is an interesting point of view - no God AND no free will. You have "free will" to post here if you want.

>Secondly, the originator of this thread at some point made
>the assinine remark that "not believing in a god makes the
>universe easier to explain". I think you have it backwards.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Since we disagree about the existence of a divine being, we're going to disagree about this point.

For example, as I mentioned above, removing God from the equation makes free will very easy (IMO) - with no God, there's no omnipotent/omniscient force that works against free will, so of course we have free will. I'm sure you will disagree.

>The belief in a "divine" power is only necessary because we
>don't not have the complete means of explaining the
>universe.

I know that many atheists think that this is the only reason people believe in a divine being. And I can see why they would think that, because it seems like a rational explanation as to why people have faith in something which must seem illogical to an atheist. But the thing is - many people, myself included, believe in a divine power because they've felt it at some point in their lives. It has nothing to do with a desire to have the answers to the universe fed to you.

It is the "god believers" that believe in god in
>order to simplify the universe.

No, that's not the reason I believe in God. And you're making an error trying to tell people why they believe in something (that you in fact do not believe). You're in no position to tell someone why THEY believe what THEY do, you can only speak on why YOU believe what YOU do. It would be like me telling you why your favorite website is Okayplayer - I can tell you why I like it, but for me to say why you like it is preposterous.

In any case, some people might choose to believe in God because it simplifies things, but if so, then they don't truly believe, they're just fooling themselves in order to answer those uncomfortable questions. But for me, I don't accept the answers to life's questions based on how my religion tells me to - I always think about them and form my own views. This is sometimes harder to do because I am constantly reevaluating how I fit into my religion, since sometimes my personal conclusions differ from what the church/other people tell me I should believe. I think it's harder for me than for someone who is faced with the same problems, reaches their personal answer, and that's it. Nothing to compare it to, so to speak. You'll disagree I'm sure.

  

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McDeezNuts
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Mon Apr-07-03 02:13 AM

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99. "actually, this was the disclaimer"
In response to Reply # 96


  

          

You shouldn't be offended - here's my actual disclaimer:
Disclaimer - this discussion will be of little or no interest to people who do not believe in some sort of divine being, so don't waste the time and space in here discussing God's existence...

I wasn't saying you couldn't participate. All I was saying is that this discussion probably won't interest you since I don't want to discuss the existence of God in this post. So if you want to discuss free will, go ahead. Just don't try to convince anyone that God doesn't exist - start a separate post if you want to do that...

  

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foxnesn
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Mon Apr-07-03 04:00 AM

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100. "this is good discussion material..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

nevertheless, it is pointless.

  

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Trinity444
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Mon Apr-07-03 04:05 AM

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101. "RE: this is good discussion material..."
In response to Reply # 100


  

          

>nevertheless, it is pointless.


exactly, especially dealing with non believers.

everyone dont get it and some dont even try.

  

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McDeezNuts
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Mon Apr-07-03 04:13 AM

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103. "well..."
In response to Reply # 101


  

          

>exactly, especially dealing with non believers.
>
>everyone dont get it and some dont even try.

By "don't get it" do you really mean, "don't agree with me"?

Maybe you don't get them either...


  

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Trinity444
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105. "RE: well..."
In response to Reply # 103


  

          

>By "don't get it" do you really mean, "don't agree with me"?
>

naw I meant what I said "everyone dont get it", and yes a part of me is angry that everyone dont agree but then Im reminded that understanding who God is and how He operates is not for everyone. I know God and im thankful that I do. So when I read post like yours it sadden me to see people replying and dealing with God with such foolishness.

>Maybe you don't get them either...

oh I get them, because its easier to tell people about God when you dont have a relationship with him(look at all the replies)its when you do, that is the tough part. I could sit here and dispute each one of the replies to this post, but I really dont have the time to do it, but I want to so bad

  

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McDeezNuts
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Mon Apr-07-03 04:07 AM

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102. "RE: this is good discussion material..."
In response to Reply # 100


  

          

>nevertheless, it is pointless.

I acknowledge that this post won't ever reach "the answer," but isn't a good discussion worthwhile in and of itself (i.e., not pointless)? My goal when posting was not to answer the question, but I have enjoyed thinking/"talking" about it.

  

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abduhu
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Tue Apr-08-03 06:37 AM

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108. "saleh's 2 cents"
In response to Reply # 0


          

salaamun 'alaa man attaba'aa alhuda

here are some links to a book (partial) that i posted a couple of years ago, and the thread was archived, but isnt anymore.

im going to post one of the pages dealing with predestination.
you might have to read through the others to fully understand, but in general i think ppl will get the gist of it.

http://www.ahya.org/books/qadar/qadar7.html
? Some people say, why should we work and exert efforts when we know that Allah knows everything we will do, knows our destiny to either Paradise or Hell, and that He is the Creator of our deeds? Let the Qadar (pre-destined matters) befall upon us and we shall receive whatever comes whether we wish it or not!

? Others say, If every sin or wrongdoing is a preordained matter, so what is the fault of the one who commits them?

* Both groups blame Al-Qadar which is in reality an accusation against Allah, His Names and Attributes. It implies that Allah loves Kufr, Shirk, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, ill-treatment of parents and all other sins and wrong-doings {1}
Allah is High above such implication. The fact that Allah wills and creates what He wills, does not necessitate that His will is also something He likes. His Masheeah, as discussed earlier in the explanation of Al-lradah Al-Kawniyyah and Al-lradah Ash-Shariyyah, is not the same as His Attribute of Love. The sayings of both groups do not differentiate between belief and disbelief, good and bad, justice and injustice etc. It leads, as Sheykh ul-Islam Ibn Taymeeyah said: ..to disbelief in the Messengers, the Books of Revelation. To him (who utters the sayings of the above groups), Adam and Moses, Noah and his people, Moses and the Pharaoh, the early Muslims and the Kuffar, are the same!

Al-Fatawa, V. 8, P.100
In fact it attributes injustice to Allah! He is Most Glorified and High above what they utter or do. They only blame Al-Qadar for their own deeds and free themselves of any wrong-doing. Implicit in their claims is the objective of eliminating Al-lradah Ash-Shartiyyah and thus the Commands of Allah: the Lawful and the un-Lawful, the Promise (Paradise) and the Threat (Hell), and those who do this are in a state of Kuffr that is greater than that of the Jews and Christians. {2}
It is true that Allah willed the existence of Kuffr, Shirk, sins, disobedience, theft, usury, etc. but He, the Most High, hated these matters and commanded His slaves not to commit them.

* Allah decreed the results and their causes. Whoever claims that he does not want to go and search for his provisions but instead waits for Al-Qadar, does not comprehend the Taqdeer of Allah in His slaves:

So walk in the path thereof (on earth) and eat from His Provisions.
Soorah al-Insan (76): 15
If Allah had ordained that He will give a person a child, it means that He had ordained for this person to have a wife and have intercourse with her. He ordained illness and ordained its medicine, and that when the ill-man takes the ordained medicine he will be cured. The child does not come without a cause, the produce does not flourish without water and soil, having a full stomach does not occur without food, and quenching thirst does not occur without water or a lawful drink.
* Allah ordained for one person that, he supplicates to Him and seeks refuge in Him, and that Allaah answers his call. And ordained that another will not invoke Him and seek His help. Thus, He leaves the later to hiself, and he stays miserable: And Your Rabb said,

Supplicate to Me, I will respond to your (Invocation)
Soorah Ghafir (40): 60
* The best answer for both groups lies in the saying of the Prophet (salallahu alaihi wa salalam) when he was asked by his companions about the benefit of performing good deeds when they are preordained by Allah. His answer was Carry on doing (good) deeds, for everybody will find easy to do such deeds as will lead him to his destined place for which he has been created, and he recited: {As for him who gives (in charity) and keeps his duty to Allah and fears Him, And believes in Al-Husna, we will make smooth for him the path of ease (goodness); But he who is greedy miser and thinks himself self-sufficient, and gives the lie to Al-Husna, we will make smooth for him the path for evil}
Saheeh Al-Bukhan, V. 6, Hadeeth # 472
One of the companions of the Prophet (salallahu alaihi wa salalam) who understood the meaning of the Hadeeth said: I have never been so motivated as I am now.

* Recognizing the means does not mean that we depend upon them, but we should depend upon their Creator - Allah. Sheikh ul-Islam Ibn Taymeeyah said: Relying on the means, alone, is Shirk, and not recognizing their role as means, is a lack of good reason. Completely turning away from them is an insult to Sharee'ah. True dependence and hope (in Allah) comprises: Tawheed, Shareeah, and reasoning. Indeed, seeking the means alone, reflects the hearts dependence and reliance upon them. In fact no creature (The means are part of Allahs creation) deserves this status, because they (i.e. the means) are not independent; they need associates (as co-partners) as well as contrasts. Besides, means that Allah does not make subservient, would not be so. This shows that Allah is the Rabb and Owner of everything

AI-Fetawa V. 8, P. 170
Every means has its copartner and contrast. So if the partner does not help, and the contrast is not averted, the means will not be manifested: Rain, for example, will not be effective in the growth of plantation except by what joins in of the air, soil, etc. The plants will not grow well unless all rotting and spoiling matters are removed. Food and drink will not provide nutrition unless the body organs are proper and healthy. In short, to have useful results, all spoiling, corruptive, and improper means are to be averted.
Al-Fatawa V. 8, P. 167
* Those who take Al-Qadar as a pretext for doing sinful and unlawful acts, should not blame anyone who may inflict harm upon them using the same excuse. They should not hate anyone, or accuse anyone of injustice regardless of the horrible crimes that may be committed. By all means, their arguments are baseless and may lead the world into destruction.

about knowledge
http://www.ahya.org/books/qadar/qadar2.html

about will
http://www.ahya.org/books/qadar/qadar4.html

about creation
http://www.ahya.org/books/qadar/qadar5.html

the book (not complete)
http://www.ahya.org/books/qadar/qadar.html




  

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McDeezNuts
Member since Jun 03rd 2002
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Thu Apr-10-03 01:46 AM

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109. "Archive please"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

There's some good discussion here.

  

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Kaorazen Obsidian Mojo
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111. "My thoughts..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

if you believe that God is omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, and all of that other stuff, then you basically believe that God knows everything, can do anything, and basically exists in all points of time at the same time. So in a sense, the universe is like a book that God has already put together up in his/her/it's head. If so, our linear existance is kinda like the book being written down on paper. So, if everything has already been put together in God's head because he/she/it already knows everything that is going to happen because he/she/it already thought it up, then I would say, that no, we do not have free will. Because if God already knows what I am going to do, then I can not necessarily do anything that God doesn't already expect to happen, to surprise God with an action that he/she/it doesn't already see will in essence prove that God doesn't know eveything. And if God exists in all points of time at the same time, then God is either interfering at all times or not interfering at all, because everything that has ever happened and everything that is going to happen is being seen by God at the same exact moment. If God didn't see all of this being played out at at the same exact moment, then God wouldn't necessarily know exactly what was going to take place because he/she/it woudn't be omnipresent, if he/she/it isn't already there in the future whnfuture events are taking place. So to say we have free will is to say that we as characters in God's book can do something that is beyond hisher/it's grasp to create or control, which would prove that this isn't God's book because he/she/it isn't writing it alone. An if he/she/it isn't writing it alone, then this omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient God doesn't exist. Well, that's one theory.

"Stop the prayers... hit the snooze... go next week...
...hell, dont' even go at all.
If God is everywhere, why should we even go to church if he's sittin' right next to you on the couch?
Who even knows if there is a God anyway.
The church is nothing but a farce... a way to judge you.
You have to take control of your own life... YOU are your only judge.
Save yourself the headache... do something valuable with your time.
And if there is a God... he'll forgive you.
Hey, I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know."-Sean O'Haire
-----------------------------
EVERWARRIORS.

"Stop the prayers... hit the snooze... go next week...
...hell, dont' even go at all.
If God is everywhere, why should we even go to church if he's sittin' right next to you on the couch?
Who even knows if there is a God anyway.
The church is nothing but a farce... a way to judge you.
You have to take control of your own life... YOU are your only judge.
Save yourself the headache... do something valuable with your time.
And if there is a God... he'll forgive you.
Hey, I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know."-Sean O'Haire

The Illuminatus! Trilogy
By Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson
Ultra-Condensed by David J. Parker

The Illuminati are a secret society that (DRUGS SEX DRUGS) control everything in the world (SEX DRUGS SEX) including all governments, financial institutions, and (DRUGS SEX DRUGS) intelligence agencies. No, they're not. Well, yes they are but not really. (SEX DRUGS SEX) They originated in Bavaria in 1776 (DRUGS SEX DRUGS). No, actually they go all the way back to Atlantis. No, (SEX DRUGS SEX) Atlantis never really existed. Yes it did. It's not just one society (DRUGS SEX DRUGS), it's a whole bunch of them (SEX DRUGS SEX) together. No, it's just one, and they go all the way back to Atlantis, which never (DRUGS SEX DRUGS) existed, oh yes it did. They've had an uninterrupted existence since 30,000 years ago (SEX DRUGS SEX) -- no they actually only go back as far as the 1800s (DRUGS SEX DRUGS). Fnord.

Young people deserve better than the example most adults are providing for them.-Ultimate Warrior

www.KAORAZEN.com


------------------------------
Golden Ratio?

EVERWAR.
...in time the universe will bleed...

http://www.facebook.com/kaorazen

  

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