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bwood
Member since Apr 03rd 2006
8231 posts
Mon Jun-10-13 05:02 PM

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"Man of Steel (Snyder, 2013)"


  

          

Wassup niggas!!!

I hope all y'all are feeling well and shit.

So my embargo is done and I saw it for the third (and definitely last) time today.

So what I love is the small character moments in this film more than the action pieces sans the opening shit on Krypton. That shit was nice to see how Clark as a man reacts to dickheads and can't do anything about it.

The opening on Krypton is to me the best part of the film. I thought the handheld style worked best during this sequence and all times watching it was the most exciting part of the film.

The structure has the broken up, fragmented flashback and present day structure like Batman Begins and it doesn't really work that well in this film cause it's more fractured and I feel crucial parts of Clark's journey are missing. Such as when did he decide to leave and start his journey? How did he know the ship would be in ice?

But yea, this is solid overall and dope minus some dialogue and and real cheesy moments. This has really nowhere to go but up. Only things that suck are losing Michael Shannon and Russell Crowe (I swear this nigga has been killing it in genre fare rather than the "thespian" shit he loves doing).

This how I'd rate it
1. Superman The Movie
2. Man of Steel
3. Superman II

I'll post more later yo.

------------------------------------------
America from 9:00 on: https://youtu.be/GUwLCQU10KQ

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
.
Jun 10th 2013
1
Full review *mild spoilers*
Jun 10th 2013
2
thanks. Your reviews have been really on point lately
Jun 10th 2013
3
      I'm pretty sure I did not spoil Fast & Furious 6, but thanks.
Jun 10th 2013
4
Not bad but I shouldn't have seen this jet lagged
Jun 11th 2013
5
Second best fight scene I've ever seen in a Superman flick
Jun 13th 2013
6
I'm not even sure which fight that was but I agree with you on the 1st
Jun 13th 2013
7
      That's cause shit was ICONIC, b
Jun 13th 2013
9
           Jeah that was some heavy stuff for me as a 7 year old at the time
Jun 14th 2013
16
                It was a huge moment/misstep (SPOILER)
Jun 14th 2013
17
                     A jarring moment for sure
Jun 14th 2013
18
                     Terence Stamp's Zod was better overall.
Jun 14th 2013
21
                     i liked it *spoiler*
Jun 14th 2013
23
                     Well you touch on another problem as well
Jun 14th 2013
25
                          Another thing that really bothered me:
Jun 14th 2013
26
                          i get what you're saying, but i liked the change
Jun 14th 2013
38
                          And that's a valid point
Jun 14th 2013
39
                          Zod was going to burn those humans alive
Jun 15th 2013
69
                               That's that good binary thinking
Jun 15th 2013
72
                                    I don't even know what that means
Jun 15th 2013
74
                     I know the comics have been retconned to hell but (SPOILER)
Jun 15th 2013
75
                          and it was so stupid there it was done away with completely
Jun 16th 2013
91
Got my tix for Saturday night arclight....stoked
Jun 13th 2013
8
I think a lot of the critics are getting it wrong
Jun 14th 2013
10
Exactly, we have seen Superman fighting human crooks
Jun 15th 2013
76
The special FX ON EARTH were TOTALLY AWESOME
Jun 14th 2013
11
Loved it !
Jun 14th 2013
12
Yeah Zimmer killed it
Jun 14th 2013
15
Is there a post-credits scene?
Jun 14th 2013
13
No.
Jun 14th 2013
14
DC movies don't have post-credit tags, most Marvel movies do
Jun 14th 2013
19
      Green Lantern did
Jun 15th 2013
78
Some great moments, but overall it left me cold. (Heavy spoiler discussi...
Jun 14th 2013
20
this completely ruined that scene for me when I saw it..
Jul 24th 2013
211
Dammit...that was GOOD!
Jun 14th 2013
22
I think Fish & the rest of the DP crew know that Clark is Supes
Jun 14th 2013
24
      I didn't get that. I think only Lois does.
Jun 14th 2013
27
           Gonna need @ least a lil more effort on the "disguise" in the sequel
Jun 14th 2013
29
                Did Perry and them even meet Supes?
Jun 14th 2013
31
                I thought so but maybe not
Jun 14th 2013
33
                why bother with a secret identity
Jun 14th 2013
37
                     valid point
Jun 14th 2013
41
                          The 'we're cool but you don't control me' angle was dope
Jun 15th 2013
50
As someone that finds superman boring
Jun 14th 2013
28
uhhh he's fighting other Kryptonians like in SII
Jun 14th 2013
35
      they had kryptonite it just wasn't "kryptonite"
Jun 14th 2013
36
      no it doesn't
Jun 15th 2013
84
           No I meant the Kryptonian elements harming Superman
Jun 15th 2013
86
                I see it as being totally different from green K in a story aspect
Jun 15th 2013
88
                     Right. Plus it's sort of this remnant of his home world
Jun 16th 2013
94
      that was nearly 33 years ago, and its a thing because
Jun 15th 2013
52
           by my watch it was about 2 hrs ago
Jun 15th 2013
85
Great origin story, good movie
Jun 14th 2013
30
Does the 3D add or is it just as good 2D
Jun 14th 2013
32
I saw it in 2D, so the 3D people can correct me if I'm wrong...
Jun 14th 2013
34
RE: Does the 3D add or is it just as good 2D
Jun 15th 2013
48
saw it in 3D, but it wasn't necessary
Jun 15th 2013
67
Can someone explain to me the plot to "beat the bad guys?"
Jun 14th 2013
40
They glossed over it pretty quickly.
Jun 15th 2013
80
both ships had a warp drive in them
Jun 16th 2013
90
Good and enjoyable, for the most part
Jun 15th 2013
42
Agree on the kiss (spoilers)
Jun 15th 2013
46
me three
Jun 15th 2013
54
      I've never really noticed Amy Adams before
Jun 15th 2013
61
           Yeah...nah
Jun 17th 2013
134
                Do you want Lois Lane on that level?
Jun 17th 2013
137
                     just chemistry
Jun 18th 2013
149
                     Whaat???
Jul 04th 2013
205
                     Krysten Ritter. n/m
Jul 21st 2013
208
                          Zooey
Jul 25th 2013
212
Yeah. This.
Jun 15th 2013
51
      I guess this is what I was saying
Jun 15th 2013
59
      We all just saw a movie where 100s of 1000s died
Jun 15th 2013
62
           Zod himself vs. Zod and his crew
Jun 15th 2013
64
           It's a valid note because it's your opinion
Jun 16th 2013
92
                Ok
Jun 16th 2013
95
           A threat in the sense that he had any kind of plan or unique skill set
Jun 15th 2013
66
David S. Goyer interview (swipe) (SPOILERS)
Jun 15th 2013
43
David S. Goyer, on the just-fast tracked MOS sequel (swipe) (SPOILERS)
Jun 15th 2013
44
This has always been one of Superman's biggest problems *Spoilers*
Jun 15th 2013
63
      that's where the act comes in
Jun 15th 2013
87
           It's not even that complex a problem though
Jun 16th 2013
93
                we all know that shit doesn't matter
Jun 21st 2013
195
I enjoyed that
Jun 15th 2013
45
LOL
Jun 15th 2013
47
when i told my coworker
Jun 15th 2013
53
mmmmhmmm
Jun 15th 2013
68
      Riight
Jun 17th 2013
133
           I didn't know chics would trip over dude like that till my date did...
Jun 20th 2013
185
                wait wha...
Jun 21st 2013
194
                     the kid Mercedes tried to raise as Fernand's (Guy Pearce) kid...
Jun 22nd 2013
196
ehhh....
Jun 15th 2013
49
WARNING******SPOILERS**** What 'Man of Steel' gets wrong about Superman...
Jun 15th 2013
55
*spoiler question/response*
Jun 15th 2013
56
Exactly! No way any of the three would have survived the fall
Jun 15th 2013
57
RE: Superman II (SPOILERS)
Jun 15th 2013
58
While I agree with the piece that Superman shouldn't have [spoiler verb]...
Jun 15th 2013
60
No. Supes sealed himself inside of a chamber ....
Jun 15th 2013
71
At least it was *interesting*
Jun 15th 2013
73
Well, in the Donner version...
Jun 15th 2013
65
This is why alot of movie critics should not be listened to
Jun 15th 2013
77
Yeah...
Jun 17th 2013
135
Like nobody died....
Jun 15th 2013
82
RE: WARNING******SPOILERS**** What 'Man of Steel' gets wrong about Supe...
Jun 15th 2013
83
Zod's crew didn't die
Jun 17th 2013
119
      With no way out though
Jun 17th 2013
120
           it IS confusing but...*spolier*
Jun 17th 2013
128
not one of christopher nolan's best works
Jun 15th 2013
70
this wasn't Nolan's work and LOL @ comparing one movie to a trilogy
Jun 15th 2013
89
      i know this.
Jun 20th 2013
191
Really enjoyed it but it has some flaws
Jun 15th 2013
79
Boring and Forgettable (Spoilers)
Jun 15th 2013
81
Henry Cavill was dope, the story sucked.
Jun 17th 2013
96
goddamn that shit was tight.
Jun 17th 2013
97
how many summers in a row is Michael Bay going to be copied?
Jun 17th 2013
98
IKR?!!!
Jun 17th 2013
99
No.
Jun 17th 2013
100
Worse than 'Dark Knight Rises'. A trite, dumb shitfest.
Jun 17th 2013
101
'Dark Knight Rises'. was an A grade..Supes is B/B-
Jun 17th 2013
102
      I'd say Man of Steel C/C+, DKRises D+
Jun 17th 2013
104
           TDKR earned the right to suck. MOS sucked from JUMP.
Jun 17th 2013
105
           In terms of a franchise, I could see that.
Jun 17th 2013
108
           log off Honky
Jun 17th 2013
106
                Rises getting an A is laughable
Jun 17th 2013
107
                     it sure doesnt get a D..ok lets say B/B- then
Jun 17th 2013
112
                          Dark Knight Rises is a C-minus on the its best day. Horrid movie.
Jun 17th 2013
116
                               OE dont start
Jun 17th 2013
121
                               Yeah, on a comic book curve I could see C/C-
Jun 17th 2013
122
                                    RE: Yeah, on a comic book curve I could see C/C-
Jun 17th 2013
124
                                         Of which? Doubt it would change my mind.
Jun 17th 2013
125
                                              Dude has an odd emotional connection to TDKR
Jun 17th 2013
126
                                              Nevermind. Went back and looked
Jun 17th 2013
127
                                                   RE: Nevermind. Went back and looked
Jun 17th 2013
130
decent origin film but the Lois/Clark relationship was so NOT earned
Jun 17th 2013
103
The real question is: what Supes/Lois relationship?
Jun 17th 2013
109
      Seriously.
Jun 17th 2013
110
      You guys are being too nice. Lois Lane just sucked.
Jun 17th 2013
111
           RE: You guys are being too nice. Lois Lane just sucked.
Jun 17th 2013
113
                I'd like to highly protest "Margot Kidder is Lois Lane"
Jun 17th 2013
117
                     RE: I'd like to highly protest "Margot Kidder is Lois Lane"
Jun 17th 2013
118
                          RE: I'd like to highly protest "Margot Kidder is Lois Lane"
Jun 17th 2013
123
      RE: The real question is: what Supes/Lois relationship?
Jun 17th 2013
114
      LOL exactly
Jun 17th 2013
129
      like Underwood and Zoe Barnes
Jun 17th 2013
115
I don't like Superman, but I liked this movie.
Jun 17th 2013
131
That last fight was on some Dragonball Z shit.
Jun 17th 2013
132
yeah she stole the show. actually gives me hope for Wonder Woman.
Jun 17th 2013
136
Yup, I felt like I was watching a live action DBZ. Loved it.
Jun 18th 2013
139
This movie further heightened my disdain for film criticism.
Jun 18th 2013
138
Movie made me appreciate critics. I should have listened to them.
Jun 18th 2013
140
I'll fucking clap to all of this. Hard.
Jun 18th 2013
141
nerds will bitch about anything.
Jun 18th 2013
142
The "there's no other way to end it" argument holds no water.
Jun 18th 2013
146
      But what's *wrong* with that position?
Jun 18th 2013
147
           Nothing wrong from a storytelling perspective.
Jun 18th 2013
148
                I dunno.. I've dealt with some death in the last year
Jun 18th 2013
150
                     No doubt it rings true in real life...
Jun 18th 2013
151
                          Yeah, I'm willing to concede a bit of bias on that particular note.
Jun 18th 2013
152
                               The movie sucked rabbit dick. Be mad, bro.
Jun 18th 2013
154
                                    It sharted all over Night Dogg's last 5 movies and pissed on the rest
Jun 18th 2013
155
                                         Dude. This movie sucking is just one of those things. Its all good.
Jun 18th 2013
160
totally agree with all of this
Jun 18th 2013
143
So, we can't break down a movie anymore and critize the problems?
Jun 18th 2013
144
Because that's clearly what I was getting at
Jun 18th 2013
145
      The movie was ass, and nobody with self esteem likes it. Move on.
Jun 18th 2013
153
      I stand corrected:This is the last response you'll get.
Jun 18th 2013
156
           The movie was actually a steaming pile of shit, though. Its a fact.
Jun 18th 2013
159
      How would it spur him to leave?
Jun 18th 2013
157
           Nope. What makes you think he left to help people?
Jun 18th 2013
158
                He's finding himself while hiding from people?
Jun 18th 2013
161
                     Please, eplain how find yourself and hiding is mutually exclusive.
Jun 18th 2013
162
                          So Ma Kent's an afterthought
Jun 18th 2013
163
                               OUCH!!!! Damn Soulhonky just pouring MAGMA on this dogshit
Jun 19th 2013
165
                               To his credit, he's engaging in an actual conversation
Jun 19th 2013
169
                                    Your favorite movie is stinky stinky. Don't be maddy mad
Jun 19th 2013
182
                               And there it is. Soul Honky you hit the hammer on the head.
Jun 19th 2013
166
                               Hit the hammer on the head? What did he hit the hammer with?
Jun 19th 2013
168
                                    He hit the hammer on your mad
Jun 19th 2013
184
                               Oh lord. I'm rolling my eyes and laughing at this abandonment angle.
Jun 19th 2013
167
                               Now you're arguing a contradictory point
Jun 19th 2013
174
                                    All the points you've made are one I agree with unfortantely
Jun 19th 2013
176
                                    I am right, you are wrong, so is Honky, and it's not bullshit. Cry about...
Jun 19th 2013
178
                                         See this is why arguments break out with you all the time.
Jun 19th 2013
179
                                              Who said anything about automatic? I broke it down.
Jun 19th 2013
180
                                              And Soul Honky broke it down on why it didn't work for us
Jun 20th 2013
187
                                              RE: See this is why arguments break out with you all the time.
Jun 19th 2013
181
                                    Pretty much agree with all the faults you mentioned
Jun 19th 2013
177
                               ETHER! ETHER! ETHER! ETHER!!
Jun 19th 2013
170
                                    I see the standard for what constitutes 'ether' has plummeted
Jun 19th 2013
171
                                         RE: I see the standard for what constitutes 'ether' has plummeted
Jun 19th 2013
172
                                              Cool story. See: my response.
Jun 19th 2013
173
                                                   RE: Cool story. See: my response.
Jun 19th 2013
175
                                                   Yo, just admit this shit sucks and KIM. It making paper. GOOD for it.
Jun 19th 2013
183
i agree with MOST of this...
Jun 18th 2013
164
Booorrrrrrriiiiiiiiiinnnnnnng
Jun 20th 2013
186
lois lane was terrible.
Jun 20th 2013
188
also the biggest plot hole imo (spoiler)
Jun 20th 2013
189
It was disconcerting to see a Superman who didn't care about...
Jun 20th 2013
190
Very good movie
Jun 20th 2013
192
A few questions
Jun 21st 2013
193
      some answers
Jul 23rd 2013
210
Does anyone else feel like this film better matches the Superman
Jun 23rd 2013
197
the story is combined elements of more modern stories
Jun 24th 2013
198
Shrug, I think so.
Jun 24th 2013
199
Doesn't matter. The movie sucks. n/m
Jun 24th 2013
200
RE: falls short of greatness
Jul 03rd 2013
201
Jul 03rd 2013
202
It sucked
Jul 03rd 2013
203
Did it ever
Jul 04th 2013
204
In defense of Man of Steel
Jul 21st 2013
206
That's why I can't take these critics seriously anymore
Jul 22nd 2013
209
shit sucked--
Jul 21st 2013
207
i cant believe people didnt like it
Jul 26th 2013
213
liked the stuff it incorporated from Byrne's Man of Steel limited series
Jul 27th 2013
214

Basaglia
Member since Nov 30th 2004
49462 posts
Mon Jun-10-13 05:13 PM

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1. "."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

____________________________________________________


Steph: I was just fooling about

Kyrie: I wasn't.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8OWNspU_yE

  

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bwood
Member since Apr 03rd 2006
8231 posts
Mon Jun-10-13 06:30 PM

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2. "Full review *mild spoilers*"
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Jun-10-13 06:32 PM by bwood

  

          

So I can say with great confidence that they successfully restarted the Superman franchise with Man of Steel. Though at times it’s flimsy, it flies high with more action than any movie in recent memory. It’s a Zack Synder film, sans the slo-mo, with a Christopher Nolan script. And what really floors me is that Henry Cavill FINALLY gives a good performance.

I’m not gonna get into plot details, but rather focus on how they handled the Superman mythos. For starters, it’s true that Kryptonian babies are harvested. And when I first heard of this I was adamantly against it. But when watching the film, it felt natural and organic to THIS take on Superman. In particular, my favorite part of the film is the opening Kryptonian sequence. I feel like a kid everytime I see this part of the film as I’m just in a sense of awe. I also love how each Kryptonian wears their house symbol on their chest with a specific meaning to each symbol. Superman’s suit is what Kal-El would’ve worn on Krypton sans the battle armor. And the way it looks does make it feel foreign and alien.

Yes, Jimmy is Jenny, Dr. Emil Hamilton gets put on the back burner unfortunately, and yes, The Fortress of Solitude is a Kryptonian ship, but it all works in this version of Superman.

I do like when Zod sent his broadcast to Clark that he had it translated for the entire world to hear. Michael Shannon absolutely kills it as Zod, but don’t ask me who is better because Terence Stamp’s Zod is different but same. What I love is we learn Zod’s motivations as he says my purpose is to do this, this all I know how to do. When he loses that purpose he still fights for survival. And this in my eyes makes him a tragic villain. He is a man defined by his purpose which is survival, something we can all relate to.
Amy Adams portrays a Lois Lane who is strong and determined. But this is the first where I’ve seen her put someone else in front of a good story. And that what makes her relationship with Clark work. Here is a man who saved her life and right away she knows what he is. And what got me as the credits started rolling is that now we’ll be able to their relationship grow in future films. I really can’t wait for people to see the final shots of this film.

What doesn’t work is the pacing, plot holes, and the overtly cheesy dialogue at times. This movie is structured like Batman Begins flipping back and forth between flashbacks and present day moving to grand operatic action setting up future adventures. Problem is it’s more fragmented and broken up than Batman Begins, which is bad because I feel crucial information is missing such as when did Clark decide to go on his journey? How did he know the Kryptonian ship was in the Artic trapped in ice? Also, due to the fragmented structure we don’t see Pa Kent, played wonderfully by Kevin Costner, that much. He’s such an integral part of Clark’s journey to Superman, that it’s makes the overall impact less successful especially what’s supposed to be a heart wrenching moment involving a tornado. Also, the action gets so out of control it seemed as if it came from a different film altogether due to this film being grounded in reality for the most part.

With those minor complaints, we have a fun summer film that I’m sure everyone is gonna go back for seconds and thirds. This is highly entertaining and despite some major flaws, it’s still worth checking out. And just like Batman Begins, this will leave people wanting more.

------------------------------------------
America from 9:00 on: https://youtu.be/GUwLCQU10KQ

  

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BigWorm
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10385 posts
Mon Jun-10-13 06:47 PM

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3. "thanks. Your reviews have been really on point lately"
In response to Reply # 2


          

Except that time you went and spoiled the fuck out of Fast & Furious 6, you have been coming here with some really solid posts/comments.

I didn't even want to see this at first, now I'm a kind of interested.

  

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bwood
Member since Apr 03rd 2006
8231 posts
Mon Jun-10-13 06:49 PM

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4. "I'm pretty sure I did not spoil Fast & Furious 6, but thanks."
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

nm

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America from 9:00 on: https://youtu.be/GUwLCQU10KQ

  

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jigga
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31583 posts
Tue Jun-11-13 10:35 AM

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5. "Not bad but I shouldn't have seen this jet lagged"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Better than Returns but I was still dozin off during a few of the action scenes towards the end

I felt the slower quieter moments worked better earlier or maybe I was just less tired then

Impressed w/ Cavill, Adams, Crowe, Cost & Fish...not so much w/ Shannon & Lane

As far as Zod & his crew, Shannon just couldn't match Stamp & them in Superman 2. I like the subdued Zod more than whatever Shannon was going for. A bad mix of overacting & phoning it in, the latter of which I would've never expected. Not sure the character suits his strong points.

The 1st half & closing scene has No!an's fingerprints all over it. It's Superman Begins all over again, & I dug it. Hanz Zimmer's score is very effective in these scenes as well.

The leash comes off in the 2nd half & Zack is clearly given free reign to do what he do when it comes to rampin up the action. It's not bad but it just got repetitive real quick. Since I couldn't care much about the villain, it just didn't have that great an impact for me. Reminded me of those huge scenes in The Avengers & Transformers 3 where there's so much sensory overload it kinda becomes overkill.

There were enough good moments to make me give it another shot once I'm well rested. The sequel should be interesting to see how they'll handle the more mundane Clark Kent stuff if they go that route from here on out. Glad that wasn't the focus this time right off the bat.

  

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buckshot defunct
Member since May 02nd 2003
26345 posts
Thu Jun-13-13 05:35 PM

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6. "Second best fight scene I've ever seen in a Superman flick"
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Jun-13-13 05:49 PM by buckshot defunct

  

          

(The first will always be this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL12bbRPUz4)

Some scattered thoughts as I try to get my head around it:
(SPOILERY BUT I'LL TRY AND LEAVE OUT THE BIG STUFF)

I liked the emphasis on the action, especially the flying Zod fight. THAT shit was dope.

The runtime didn't feel as long as it was. I was pretty eager to get past the Krypton stuff in the beginning and see some Supermanning but it wasn't bad or anything. Kryptonian culture has always bored me, even in the comics.

Structure was weird to me. I didn't mind the flashbacks but I felt like we didn't get enough time on current day Earth. The Zod Invasion pretty much monopolizes that whole part of the movie and I personally didn't find it that interesting. Zod either, really.

And as overly familiar as Superman's origin is at this point, I really liked those flashbacks to Smallville. Something about him discovering his powers, who he is, and who he's gonna be is just really cool to me. Pa Kent was right on the money.

Not sure on Cavill's performance. It fit the story just fine but I hope future installments will put him in a more relaxed, confident state of mind. This Clark is unsure of himself, isolated, and intense. I'm not one of those fans who holds the Christopher Reeves flicks as some untouchable gold standard, but I wish he'd had some of that swag. But again: It fit the story. This is really about Clark learning to become Clark, not Superman. He's kinda a natural at that from the jump. When he's saving shit seems to be the only time he really knows what to do with himself. I guess this is more of a characterization issue than an acting issue. And it was a cool way to look at it, just not a very fun thing to watch for me.

Oh and it was slightly overdone how everywhere Clark went starting at age 5, there was some colossal asshole there looking to pick a fight with him. Maybe getting that idea across as just one scene and allowing it to develop more would've had more impact. By the third time it happened I was just laughing. Is "Asshole Magnet" one of his powers?

But hey, big sigh of relief that they didn't make him all dark and twisted like many of us feared they would. The shit going on around him is fucked up, but Superman manages to pretty much always be a beacon of hope.

HOWEVER. There's one thing he does (maybe two but ONE for sure) that I strongly disagree with. You'll know it when you see it. Wasn't feeling that so much.

We've seen how bad comic book movies can get, rest assured that this isn't *that* – But we're talking Superman here so I really wanted to walk out of the theater feeling inspired. This isn't that movie, either.

-----------------------------
http://talestosuffice.com/
@kennykeil

  

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jigga
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31583 posts
Thu Jun-13-13 07:04 PM

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7. "I'm not even sure which fight that was but I agree with you on the 1st "
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

>(The first will always be this one:
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL12bbRPUz4)

I'll never forget the 1st time I saw that in the theater

>Some scattered thoughts as I try to get my head around it:
>(SPOILERY BUT I'LL TRY AND LEAVE OUT THE BIG STUFF)
>
>I liked the emphasis on the action, especially the flying Zod
>fight. THAT shit was dope.

I think I dozed off a bit here & there if that was their 2nd fight

>Not sure on Cavill's performance. It fit the story just fine
>but I hope future installments will put him in a more relaxed,
>confident state of mind. This Clark is unsure of himself,
>isolated, and intense. I'm not one of those fans who holds the
>Christopher Reeves flicks as some untouchable gold standard,
>but I wish he'd had some of that swag. But again: It fit the
>story. This is really about Clark learning to become Clark,
>not Superman. He's kinda a natural at that from the jump. When
>he's saving shit seems to be the only time he really knows
>what to do with himself. I guess this is more of a
>characterization issue than an acting issue. And it was a cool
>way to look at it, just not a very fun thing to watch for me.

I've never really enjoyed the nerdy Clark version so I was glad to see them go in a different direction from that. I would like to see more of that Superswag in the sequel as well tho.

>Oh and it was slightly overdone how everywhere Clark went
>starting at age 5, there was some colossal asshole there
>looking to pick a fight with him. Maybe getting that idea
>across as just one scene and allowing it to develop more
>would've had more impact. By the third time it happened I was
>just laughing. Is "Asshole Magnet" one of his powers?

Didn't mind this too much since I think they only showed it twice as a kid & the third occasion as an adult was handled very well w/ the comic relief.

>But hey, big sigh of relief that they didn't make him all dark
>and twisted like many of us feared they would. The shit going
>on around him is fucked up, but Superman manages to pretty
>much always be a beacon of hope.
>
>HOWEVER. There's one thing he does (maybe two but ONE for
>sure) that I strongly disagree with. You'll know it when you
>see it. Wasn't feeling that so much.

Was it the scene towards the end w/ Lois & the Daily Planet stuff that closed it?

>We've seen how bad comic book movies can get, rest assured
>that this isn't *that* – But we're talking Superman here so I
>really wanted to walk out of the theater feeling inspired.
>This isn't that movie, either.

Biggest problem for me was that it needed a better villain

  

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buckshot defunct
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9. "That's cause shit was ICONIC, b"
In response to Reply # 7
Thu Jun-13-13 11:18 PM by buckshot defunct

  

          

>>(The first will always be this one:
>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL12bbRPUz4)
>
>I'll never forget the 1st time I saw that in the theater

I don't think we got anything so powerful in this one. For the most part, the larger set pieces were just a monochrome blur. But I liked some of the effects and shots they used in the fight scenes. These characters were basically gods yet the action felt really visceral and in-your-face at times. I dug that.


>I've never really enjoyed the nerdy Clark version so I was
>glad to see them go in a different direction from that. I
>would like to see more of that Superswag in the sequel as well
>tho.

I LOVE nerdy Clark, but I wasn't really expecting it here. And I was ok with that. But the same way you don't dig nerdy Clark, I'm not too crazy about "isolated" Superman. He's so different, he's so alone... Yeah, I get it, he's a super powered alien, but c'mon. He's also SUPERMAN. This story was all about making it clear he was "not our enemy"... But I prefer when he's presented more like our friend. And I think this movie was about getting him to that point. So on the bright side, it's a nice set-up for an even stronger sequel in my eyes.

>Didn't mind this too much since I think they only showed it
>twice as a kid & the third occasion as an adult was handled
>very well w/ the comic relief.

Yeah the impaled truck didn't do much for me, same goes for most of the other instances of comic relief. But let's see, you had the kid on the bus, the kid outside his dad's workshop, the fishing boat co-worker and gossipping classmates to a lesser extent, the truck driver, the US Military... I mean this dude was not having the best track record with humanity up to this point.

>Was it the scene towards the end w/ Lois & the Daily Planet
>stuff that closed it?

Nah I dug that. In fact that's where I wanted it to begin in the first place.

What I'm talking about was the... let's just call it the OH SNAP moment. I felt it violated the most important ideal Superman is supposed to stand for.

>Biggest problem for me was that it needed a better villain

Yeah, a superhero movie is only as good as its villain in my eyes. Zod won't let this movie be great. A handful of other factors almost kept it from being good.

-----------------------------
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jigga
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16. "Jeah that was some heavy stuff for me as a 7 year old at the time"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

>>>(The first will always be this one:
>>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL12bbRPUz4)
>>
>>I'll never forget the 1st time I saw that in the theater
>
>I don't think we got anything so powerful in this one. For the
>most part, the larger set pieces were just a monochrome blur.
>But I liked some of the effects and shots they used in the
>fight scenes. These characters were basically gods yet the
>action felt really visceral and in-your-face at times. I dug
>that.

It was intense at times but I just couldn't keep track of everything that was goin on after awhile

>>I've never really enjoyed the nerdy Clark version so I was
>>glad to see them go in a different direction from that. I
>>would like to see more of that Superswag in the sequel as
>well
>>tho.
>
>I LOVE nerdy Clark, but I wasn't really expecting it here. And
>I was ok with that. But the same way you don't dig nerdy
>Clark, I'm not too crazy about "isolated" Superman. He's so
>different, he's so alone... Yeah, I get it, he's a super
>powered alien, but c'mon. He's also SUPERMAN. This story was
>all about making it clear he was "not our enemy"... But I
>prefer when he's presented more like our friend. And I think
>this movie was about getting him to that point. So on the
>bright side, it's a nice set-up for an even stronger sequel in
>my eyes.

Agreed. Although I didn't enjoy it overall as much as I expected to, I think the set up for things going forward has good potential.

>>Didn't mind this too much since I think they only showed it
>>twice as a kid & the third occasion as an adult was handled
>>very well w/ the comic relief.
>
>Yeah the impaled truck didn't do much for me, same goes for
>most of the other instances of comic relief. But let's see,
>you had the kid on the bus, the kid outside his dad's
>workshop, the fishing boat co-worker and gossipping classmates
>to a lesser extent, the truck driver, the US Military... I
>mean this dude was not having the best track record with
>humanity up to this point.

Most of the stuff w/ the kids made sense since that really is how kids act towards one another when someone doesn't "fit in". Can't recall the fishing boat incident other than it being on some treat the new guy like shit steez. Military men were just mad he was stealin their shine.

>>Was it the scene towards the end w/ Lois & the Daily Planet
>>stuff that closed it?
>
>Nah I dug that. In fact that's where I wanted it to begin in
>the first place.
>
>What I'm talking about was the... let's just call it the OH
>SNAP moment. I felt it violated the most important ideal
>Superman is supposed to stand for.

Zod snap moment?

>>Biggest problem for me was that it needed a better villain
>
>Yeah, a superhero movie is only as good as its villain in my
>eyes. Zod won't let this movie be great. A handful of other
>factors almost kept it from being good.

Who do you think they'll have for the sequel &/or who's your preference?

  

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buckshot defunct
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17. "It was a huge moment/misstep (SPOILER)"
In response to Reply # 16
Fri Jun-14-13 02:26 PM by buckshot defunct

  

          

>Zod snap moment?

Yo. When he broke the dude's neck?

That's not what Superman does.


>>Yeah, a superhero movie is only as good as its villain in my
>>eyes. Zod won't let this movie be great. A handful of other
>>factors almost kept it from being good.
>
>Who do you think they'll have for the sequel &/or who's your
>preference?

There was a really dope Brainiac storyline in the comics not too long ago... I think they could pull from that and it would fit in perfectly with the sci-fi tone of the first one as it plays up Superman's alien heritage.

And we gotta get Lex at some point. I saw a LexCorp truck during the Metropolis fight so you know that's coming. But it would be cool to let their relationship build a bit before the big confrontation, so I'd almost wanna see Lex co-star in the next one as opposed to being *the* bad guy. Then in the 3rd one, shit goes down. No more real estate schemes, I'm talking about some real shit.

I mean, Zod's not a bad villain on paper. He just didn't do too much for me onscreen.

Of course if it were up to me, I'd have to go with Mister Mxyzptlk. Played by Larry David.

-----------------------------
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@kennykeil

  

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jigga
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18. "A jarring moment for sure"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

>>Zod snap moment?
>
>Yo. When he broke the dude's neck?
>
>That's not what Superman does.

It felt like he left him no choice but that was somewhat shocking. Could've done w/o the big Darth Vadish, "NOOOOOOOOO!!!" after but maybe that was thrown in to appease.

>>>Yeah, a superhero movie is only as good as its villain in
>my
>>>eyes. Zod won't let this movie be great. A handful of other
>>>factors almost kept it from being good.
>>
>>Who do you think they'll have for the sequel &/or who's your
>>preference?
>
>There was a really dope Brainiac storyline in the comics not
>too long ago... I think they could pull from that and it would
>fit in perfectly with the sci-fi tone of the first one as it
>plays up Superman's alien heritage.
>
>And we gotta get Lex at some point. I saw a LexCorp truck
>during the Metropolis fight so you know that's coming. But it
>would be cool to let their relationship build a bit before the
>big confrontation, so I'd almost wanna see Lex co-star in the
>next one as opposed to being *the* bad guy. Then in the 3rd
>one, shit goes down. No more real estate schemes, I'm talking
>about some real shit.
>
>I mean, Zod's not a bad villain on paper. He just didn't do
>too much for me onscreen.
>
>Of course if it were up to me, I'd have to go with Mister
>Mxyzptlk. Played by Larry David.

That could be genius. I'm partial to Bizzaro but I don't think he'd work very well on screen.

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
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21. "Terence Stamp's Zod was better overall."
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

And I say that as a colossal Shannon fan.

>>Zod snap moment?
>
>Yo. When he broke the dude's neck?
>
>That's not what Superman does.


>>>Yeah, a superhero movie is only as good as its villain in
>my
>>>eyes. Zod won't let this movie be great. A handful of other
>>>factors almost kept it from being good.

Agreed with both of these things.

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Calico
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23. "i liked it *spoiler*"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

...nah, it's not what Superman NORMALLY does, but this guy has already fucked up 2-3 cities/towns, killed a bunch by this point, and now Supes has to live with him killing somone in front of him? nah son...he coulda flew him into space or something but i like the lil realistic choices in spots that differ from other supes mythos...like he really had no choice in allota respects, WTF is earth gonna do with a "captured" Zod?? how do you even contain someone like that??

"yes, sometimes my rhymes are sexist, but you lovely bitches and hos should know i'm tryin to correct it"- hiphopopotamus

  

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buckshot defunct
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25. "Well you touch on another problem as well"
In response to Reply # 23
Fri Jun-14-13 05:30 PM by buckshot defunct

  

          

>...nah, it's not what Superman NORMALLY does, but this guy
>has already fucked up 2-3 cities/towns, killed a bunch by this
>point,

We saw Superman do very little to minimize the damage or move the fight to a less populated area. Buildings were just falling at a ridiculous rate and I never got the sense that the casualties were on his radar.

>..like he really had no choice
>in allota respects, WTF is earth gonna do with a "captured"
>Zod?? how do you even contain someone like that??

But look, the thing about Superman is that he always finds a way. If you or I woulda been in that situation, maybe *we* would've had no choice. But I think it was a mistake to bring Superman down to our level. Superman doesn't kill. And I'm open to a lot of different interpretations with the character but for me that aspect is just non-negotiable. So whether they did it to humanize him, or symbolize his breaking ties with Krypton, or give some closure to the anger issues he'd been harboring all his life... Hell, even if they were trying to show that this is a new Superman who makes mistakes... I just don't think it was worth it.

-----------------------------
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@kennykeil

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
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26. "Another thing that really bothered me:"
In response to Reply # 25
Fri Jun-14-13 05:30 PM by Frank Longo

  

          

>>...nah, it's not what Superman NORMALLY does, but this guy
>>has already fucked up 2-3 cities/towns, killed a bunch by
>this
>>point,
>
>We saw Superman do very little to minimize the damage or move
>the fight to a less populated area. Buildings were just
>falling at a ridiculous rate and I never got the sense that
>the casualties were on his radar.

^^^ this

We also don't really see Zod personally try to fuck humans up until the very last shot. Until then, we see him strangle Ma Kent for like one second. I wanna see Zod fucking punch a civilian just to prove a point.

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Calico
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38. "i get what you're saying, but i liked the change"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

...EVERY superhero flick has some big fight where the hero tries to move the fight to minimize damage....i liked that in this movie we see that Supes really wasn't in control most of the fight, he's more of a reactionary brawler at that point...people can say that "Supes doesn't fight like that", but in this movie, we're looking at a guy who never fights...in the whole movie there are only 3-4 Supes fights, he hasn't gotten to the point of thinking about minimizing damage....

..i LOVED that last fight...it was a real fucking BRAWL...to me it's what a fight between two guys like that should have....

"yes, sometimes my rhymes are sexist, but you lovely bitches and hos should know i'm tryin to correct it"- hiphopopotamus

  

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buckshot defunct
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39. "And that's a valid point"
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

They might also be building a case against Superman so that Lex has more sway turning people against him in the sequel(s)

But for a character that's been a known quantity for generations, it was tough to see him not know the basic shit. And you gotta admit that they did kinda establish him as having a natural instinct for protecting people and doing the "right" thing. So I still say it was out of character, even on the film's own terms. But I see where you're coming from.

-----------------------------
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Mgmt
Member since Feb 17th 2005
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Sat Jun-15-13 02:14 PM

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69. "Zod was going to burn those humans alive"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

We don't need to have humans getting killed just to be all comicbooky

  

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buckshot defunct
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72. "That's that good binary thinking"
In response to Reply # 69


  

          

-----------------------------
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@kennykeil

  

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Mgmt
Member since Feb 17th 2005
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74. "I don't even know what that means"
In response to Reply # 72


  

          

One day, buckshot, I swear I'll be on your level. I'll come back here just as smart and nerdier than I've ever been. And on that day, you'll suffer an internet death like u never had.

  

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ShinobiShaw
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75. "I know the comics have been retconned to hell but (SPOILER)"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

Superman kills Zod in the comics. Not in the same way but he kills him.

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Garhart Poppwell
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91. "and it was so stupid there it was done away with completely"
In response to Reply # 75


  

          

and there's a reason for that

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LA2Philly
Member since Oct 18th 2004
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8. "Got my tix for Saturday night arclight....stoked "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

---------------------------------
<--The drought is over

"have fun reveling in your pettiness tho" (C) Dula summing up 98% of OKS

"I didnt finish a damn thing...matter of fact I jerked off after she left."
-Kobe speaking to investigators

L D E A

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Fri Jun-14-13 12:40 AM

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10. "I think a lot of the critics are getting it wrong"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

one thing I keep seeing brought up is the S. They keep talking about how its meaning is revisionist and an attempt to rewrite the mythos, and how there's too much action and it's too serious and im thinking....do these people know anything about Superman aside from the Donner films? it's as if that and lois & clark and the george reeves show are the only frames of reference. like... one dude cokplained because he missed Superman taking on common crooks and seeing bullets bounce off his chest.

one commentator I saw said if its not the superman from the thirties, it isn't superman. alot of yhis reminds me of the complaints here about the initial teaser, as though there aren't other iterations of the character. he doesn't need to be a fucking noy scout, people.

  

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ShinobiShaw
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76. "Exactly, we have seen Superman fighting human crooks"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

in most of his movies and only other super powered entities what 2 times?
This superman movie was needed. They needed to show Metropolis getting leveled.
They needed to show fights at super speed
I can not wait for them to bring in a major DCU villain like Darkseid or any of the regular superman rogue gallery.

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Allah
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11. "The special FX ON EARTH were TOTALLY AWESOME"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Those accelerations and and everything were rad.

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Pete Burns
Member since Oct 18th 2005
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Fri Jun-14-13 12:58 PM

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12. "Loved it !"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Saw it this morning.

My first IMAX 3D movie.

Fucking.Loved.It.

Need to see it again.

Can't get the main theme (if it *is* that ?) out of my head.

Didn't miss the John Williams tune....OMFG !!!

Just downloaded it (main theme..)

Hans Zimmer, you are a fucking G for this !

Fucking YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES !

Massive MASSIVE movie.

Fucking YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES !


*ties bed sheet round neck*

*leaps from various low-lying furniture*



What the blood claaat ???

  

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buckshot defunct
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15. "Yeah Zimmer killed it"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          


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phenompyrus
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13. "Is there a post-credits scene?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

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bwood
Member since Apr 03rd 2006
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Fri Jun-14-13 01:18 PM

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14. "No."
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

------------------------------------------
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ZooTown74
Member since May 29th 2002
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Fri Jun-14-13 03:33 PM

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19. "DC movies don't have post-credit tags, most Marvel movies do"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

______________________________________________________________________________________
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Rockscissorspaper
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78. "Green Lantern did"
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

I know you probably wanted to forget everything about that movie, though.

-----------------------------

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
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Fri Jun-14-13 03:57 PM

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20. "Some great moments, but overall it left me cold. (Heavy spoiler discussi..."
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Jun-14-13 05:54 PM by Frank Longo

  

          

My full review here: http://exm.nr/11FWWHN

It ended up being one of those movies I liked, maybe even admired, but didn't ever love, and actually found myself torn over the more I thought about it.

Pros:
- the "humanization," which I was admittedly worried about, was the best part of the film. The struggle to fit in connected, and the Malicky Kansas imagery helped create a very Americana icon palate. It was odd that I found the still, quiet moments to be the best parts of this Superman film, but there you go. All of the pre-suit stuff was terrific, IMO.
- the hand-to-hand fight scenes were executed very well. Little moments got me jazzed, like the train coming over the horizon (although Chronicle kind of stole that move's thunder last year). For me, it never got better than the Smallville fight between Supes and the two lackeys.
- Crowe was terrific, and the sequence where he's helping Amy Adams was another real highlight. One of the few funny moments in the film.
- Costner and Lane... again, the human element thrived in this film. Both are so good.
- towards the finale, watching Fishburne and Michael Kelly try to save the intern was more exciting than anything else going on. Again, human element.
- Meloni's first and second showdown with the Kryptonette were enjoyable.
- I had no qualms with any of the "changes," either in story or in tone, to the Superman we're used to, save one, which I'll detail below.
EDIT- one more scene I absolutely loved: the church scene. Forces the questions about God to the surface... especially the ones Clark must have, as the Kents are unquestionably Christian and would've raised their kid that way. (Didn't they say Clark was 33 in this film? Ugh, lol.)

Cons:
- let's start with the problem nearly all origin films face: an abundance of clunky exposition. While Jor-El's explanation of the planet's history was stylishly done, many sequences sagged due to incessant explanation...
- ... the majority of which rested on Shannon's shoulders. Sigh... look, I love Shannon. He was given nothing to do here. Nothing personal to root his character in. From the second we see him, he's a one-note genocidal loon. While Jor-El and Zod both explain through clunky exposition that they used to be friends multiple times, we don't buy it, because we never see Zod's depth.
- the opening Krypton sequence had some very interesting ideas that I admire, especially Jor-El being a badass himself, but the dialogue is really rough throughout that whole segment. Feels like a costume stage drama with characters making loud expositional proclamations, not unlike the clunkier parts of the Thor film.
- the more personal the action was, the better it was. Unfortunately, Snyder keeps pulling the camera back to show building destruction a hundred or more times. Not only does this make the action less personal, which hurts the storytelling aspect of action, it makes it less fun-- I found myself very torn between rooting for the destruction of buildings and realizing literally millions of people are dying without a single mention. Supes is obsessed with saving people, except when bad guys are around, and then he's obsessed with building destruction. It was odd not to include more concern for his surroundings, which would've been consistent with the character they established, but would've made for less big explosions. I admired the choice to underscore the danger and destructive force of Superman's presence to those around him, but it's barely dealt with if at all.
- also, the more kinetic the fights became, the harder it became to tell what the fuck was happening. It was just punch, fly back, building explodes. Punch, fly back, building explodes. Ultimately repetitive and exhausting.
- no action was as bad as the World Ender vs Supes. You can't follow Supes hand-to-hand combat with Supes fighting a machine with nanobot tentacles or whatever. And the coughing to show his "weakness"? Ugh, kind of embarrassing, honestly. Hated that portion of the film.
- also, this may be just me, but I am ultimately far more terrified of personal threat than "big strange machines blasting rays," which seems to happen more and more in comic book films, because it creates a neater resolution (insane how similar Man Of Steel's ultimate threat/save-the-world move is to The Avengers). Zod knocking down buildings just to fuck with humans is way scarier than some machine, plus it would've given us more hand-to-hand. Outside of choking Ma Kent once and some vague threats to Lois Lane, Zod doesn't personally do shit to "the inferior race" until seconds before his demise. Which, again, would've taken 30 seconds and seems like an odd choice to omit.
- this is admittedly a nitpick: I'm tired of movies in which the bad guy takes over every TV and Nokia phone screen to deliver a message. In this, it was especially silly, with its subtitled translations everywhere it was transmitted.
- Supes killing a guy? Nope. Not feeling it. And the awful Vader NO didn't make it better. (There were a couple of Vader screams, none of which worked.)
- finally, the gender politics, which Supes has never been terrific about, was especially bad here, from Lara almost getting her kid killed with her womanly weakness for a child, the lady intern getting stuck, Lois needing help every step of the way from men, and (a cheap laugh in a film with very few laughs) the military officer swooning about how hot Superman is. I'm sure someone will take issue with my inclusion of this in the cons, but I felt it. Can't help it.

I've written more cons, but ultimately, the human stuff and the stuff in the pros makes up over half of the film, so overall, I did like it, and I'll be seeing it again to see whether my mind changes regarding some of the things that irked me. There's just way too much that bothered me first viewing for me to ever give myself over to the film emotionally, or to even enjoy it purely on an action level. A mixed bag overall.

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basslinewonder
Member since Oct 12th 2005
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211. "this completely ruined that scene for me when I saw it.."
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

> - no action was as bad as the World Ender vs Supes. You can't follow Supes hand-to-hand combat with Supes fighting a machine with nanobot tentacles or whatever. And the coughing to show his "weakness"? Ugh, kind of embarrassing, honestly. Hated that portion of the film.
________________
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Calico
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22. "Dammit...that was GOOD!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

...caught that noon "lemme leave work early" matinee

...i liked SOME of the Krypton stuff, but like someone else already said, even as a comics fan, most of the kryton stuff is really boring....Jor El, Lara, Zod etc are all great, but i think at the core, i hate the Kypton origin story....it's just SO stupid to me....i liked Jor El whooping Zod's ass tho, and Zod's general anger in contrast to Jor El's calm facing the same problems....oh and that flying creature was DOPE...

...i didn't like that they didn't explain how he knew where the Fortress was, or why he left his widowed mom, or how he even got THAT job at the Daily Planet (there is NO setup for why he would be able to get a real big city job like that), or how LOIS is the one to come with the plan to use the ship (how does she even really know what the ships can do??)...i also didn't get how people didn't connect the dots ( in the fictional world) after lois went to Clark's house, which has just been destroyed, and he's standing there in his kryto-grab and she's calling him by his goverment name...yelling it, even....

...all the fights were awesome to me, and i liked that Clark had anger issues for obvious reasons....

...i had a few issues with it, but otherwise it was REALLY well done....

...i liked Zod alot and felt like he made a fantastic foil....LOVED when he trained himself to handle the powers so quickly...at first i was a lil miffed at this learning rate, but then he basically explains it in their fight and it makes perfect sense....

...is Hamilton in the Phantom Zone???

...i DO think the cheesiest scenes came from the US general, but that actor is just kinda cheesy/hammy in all his roles so whatevs...

"yes, sometimes my rhymes are sexist, but you lovely bitches and hos should know i'm tryin to correct it"- hiphopopotamus

  

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jigga
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24. "I think Fish & the rest of the DP crew know that Clark is Supes"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

It's the only way this makes sense to me even though it doesn't follow the usual blueprint

>...i didn't like that they didn't explain how he
>even got THAT job at the Daily Planet (there is NO setup for
>why he would be able to get a real big city job like that)

  

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Frank Longo
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Fri Jun-14-13 05:31 PM

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27. "I didn't get that. I think only Lois does."
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

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jigga
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29. "Gonna need @ least a lil more effort on the "disguise" in the sequel "
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

I know that's always been a point of contention w/ just the glasses and the hair in the older versions. It looked like he didn't even bother with the hair this time.

  

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Frank Longo
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Fri Jun-14-13 07:22 PM

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31. "Did Perry and them even meet Supes?"
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

I mean, granted, someone should've taken a photo at some point.

Plus, isn't it less about the costume and more about Clark being someone forgettable who just blends into the background?

(I'm making excuses for the glasses, obviously.)

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jigga
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33. "I thought so but maybe not"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

It just looked like they were all in the know when he walked in the office but I could be wrong

  

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buckshot defunct
Member since May 02nd 2003
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Fri Jun-14-13 09:17 PM

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37. "why bother with a secret identity"
In response to Reply # 29
Fri Jun-14-13 09:18 PM by buckshot defunct

  

          

When you can just destroy every camera and drone plane you see

(Actually I loved the drone shit, especially given recent headlines)

((But it goes to show you that "S" ain't the kryptonian symbol for "Subtlety")

-----------------------------
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jigga
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41. "valid point"
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

>When you can just destroy every camera and drone plane you
>see
>
>(Actually I loved the drone shit, especially given recent
>headlines)

I liked that & most of his interaction w/ the military throughout

>((But it goes to show you that "S" ain't the kryptonian symbol
>for "Subtlety")

The S stands for http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu_RRBh_EKU

  

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buckshot defunct
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50. "The 'we're cool but you don't control me' angle was dope"
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

They handled that really well, yeah

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IceburgSmurf
Member since May 17th 2008
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Fri Jun-14-13 05:50 PM

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28. "As someone that finds superman boring"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i loved this film. To try and keep it brief how many superman stories give you thrills and spills without a single mention of kryptonite.

For that reason and the tightness of the story i've been put in my place.

The worlds most famous comic book hero has a 21st century movie worthy of his status. take a bow snyder, nolan and the associated syncopy folk.


on a sidenote am i getting old or did those end fight scenes give anyone else a headache? my nephew loved it but i cant imagine sitting through the movie in 3D. Also on a larger point when is some CGI too much CGI. I know snyder is one of the leaders of creating CGI worlds but i found it a bit much. also i got annoyed with zooming in and out of wholly CGI scenes. I know the scene isnt real so stop focusing in and out to make it look like its being filmed with a smaller camera.


Anyway all my whining apart top top film

  

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Garhart Poppwell
Member since Nov 28th 2008
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Fri Jun-14-13 08:42 PM

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35. "uhhh he's fighting other Kryptonians like in SII"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

>i loved this film. To try and keep it brief how many superman
>stories give you thrills and spills without a single mention
>of kryptonite.

why would that even be a thing?

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buckshot defunct
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36. "they had kryptonite it just wasn't "kryptonite""
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

All that stuff with the alien atmosphere and what not basically served the same purpose. But I liked that they kept it to a minimum. Still, the table is set for some kryptonite at some point. Buhlee dat

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Garhart Poppwell
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Sat Jun-15-13 11:46 PM

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84. "no it doesn't"
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

kryptonite kills Kryptonians, what was happening with them wasn't anywhere near fatal
they add adjusted to Earth's climate and went apeshit, it was a cool twist and fit in well with the terraforming

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buckshot defunct
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Sat Jun-15-13 11:51 PM

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86. "No I meant the Kryptonian elements harming Superman"
In response to Reply # 84


  

          

I was relieved to see an absence of glowing green rocks this time around but I think with him being weakened by the ship's atmosphere was more or less in the same ballpark in terms of servicing the plot and playing into all those deeper philosophical Superman themes if that's your thing.

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Garhart Poppwell
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Sat Jun-15-13 11:57 PM

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88. "I see it as being totally different from green K in a story aspect"
In response to Reply # 86


  

          

because it was temporary, non lethal and could only work once as a story device
but I see your point if you mean just in regards to showing him being vulnerable

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buckshot defunct
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94. "Right. Plus it's sort of this remnant of his home world"
In response to Reply # 88


  

          

That's exposing his weakness, so there's that too. I guess Zod is an extension of the same idea in some ways.

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IceburgSmurf
Member since May 17th 2008
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Sat Jun-15-13 11:04 AM

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52. "that was nearly 33 years ago, and its a thing because"
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

in a post we had a couple of months back about superman returns i defended the film because i felt the only stories you could do with the superman character was: he's born, sent to earth, virtually immortal, someone brings out the kryptonite, he fight it, wins, credits

the next poster made the point that the atmosphere pseudo-substituted for kryptonite but i was just pleased that this 21st century superman film avoided, somewhat the arc i described above.

  

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Garhart Poppwell
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Sat Jun-15-13 11:49 PM

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85. "by my watch it was about 2 hrs ago"
In response to Reply # 52
Sat Jun-15-13 11:49 PM by Garhart Poppwell

  

          

he just fought 3 Kryptonians and there was no kryptonite around in either battle
that wouldn't work in any sort of way


>in a post we had a couple of months back about superman
>returns i defended the film because i felt the only stories
>you could do with the superman character was: he's born, sent
>to earth, virtually immortal, someone brings out the
>kryptonite, he fight it, wins, credits
>

you're so wrong about this, but whatever


>the next poster made the point that the atmosphere
>pseudo-substituted for kryptonite but i was just pleased that
>this 21st century superman film avoided, somewhat the arc i
>described above.

there was no substitution for any variation of kryptonite, you guys are reading that wrong
without some sort of difference in atmosphere, the terraforming angle wouldn't be plausible
THAT was the purpose of it, not doubling a kryptolite

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Marauder21
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Fri Jun-14-13 07:21 PM

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30. "Great origin story, good movie"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Hey, Snyder didn't just direct another two hour music video. Round of applause, everyone.

They did a nice job establishing Supes as an alien finding his way in the world, but I really hope the next movie isn't going to focus on distraught, emo Superman. I'm looking forward to more of a Clark/Kal balance. And I assume we'll see more Daily Planet stuff, too.

And I agree with what Buckshot said, they need to introduce Luthor and build it up before having them square off.

I feel similar to the way I felt about Thor. It was entertaining, and did a good job of introducing us to this character and setting up future films. But it's not going to go down as anyone's favorite anything.

------

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go mack
Member since May 02nd 2008
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Fri Jun-14-13 07:22 PM

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32. "Does the 3D add or is it just as good 2D"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I'll save the couple bucks if so

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
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Fri Jun-14-13 07:59 PM

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34. "I saw it in 2D, so the 3D people can correct me if I'm wrong..."
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

>I'll save the couple bucks if so

... but there's a lot of quick editing and the visuals aren't exactly crisp-- they're stylized, with lots of quick zooms, pans, etc. I'm not certain if the translation to 3D would necessarily be as crystalline as one wants for the price of the up charge.

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Voodoochilde
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48. "RE: Does the 3D add or is it just as good 2D"
In response to Reply # 32


          

>I'll save the couple bucks if so

save yer bucks....i saw it 3d imax...3d didnt do anything for it, and Imax just made the corny script more audible (though barely...it was kinda hard to hear over the overbooming soundtrack

�
have you listened to
her stuff?
v

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Kahlema
Member since Jan 31st 2003
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Sat Jun-15-13 01:58 PM

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67. "saw it in 3D, but it wasn't necessary"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

at times i forgot it was 3D. you would think with the action sequences and aerial vantages it would be good, but not really.

-------
peace and love

that's when i tiptoed out ur inbox (c) ricky

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Oak27
Member since Apr 17th 2005
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Fri Jun-14-13 11:50 PM

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40. "Can someone explain to me the plot to "beat the bad guys?""
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Jun-14-13 11:53 PM by Oak27

  

          

This happens every scify movie I see. A group of people come up with some crazy ass plan that everybody nods their head and agrees to follow through with, but I can never actually understand WTF the plan is.

*spoiler, I guess...*

So what exactly did Kal-El's ship do? What did the earthlings plan to do to the world engine to reverse it? I see Zod survived that initial explosion, but what was the fate of everyone else? What the fuck exactly happened in that 20 minutes besides planet Earth prevailing?

Sorry if I'm just way too slow to follow these kinds of plots haha

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
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Sat Jun-15-13 08:59 PM

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80. "They glossed over it pretty quickly."
In response to Reply # 40


          

Something about how, if the two energy sources collide, it would create a black hole that would then suck in the bad guys in the ship. (And then, for some reason, close and not suck in the rest of the world.)

Apparently, everyone was by that one ship except for Zod.

----
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Garhart Poppwell
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90. "both ships had a warp drive in them"
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

making the warp drives collide would create a temporary black hole until all the drive energy dissipated, closing the hole behind itself

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ZooTown74
Member since May 29th 2002
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Sat Jun-15-13 01:07 AM

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42. "Good and enjoyable, for the most part"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

For the first hour or so the movie established itself as a sort-of Batman Begins origin story retread, complete with flashbacks to key moments before the present, which I did not have a problem with, as they gave us just enough of an emotional foundation for both the character and the movie to go forward with. I didn't need to see every detail of Clark's upbringing; this felt like we were getting some of the emotional highlights from Clark's youth, and, save for a little bit of clunky dialogue (NOT NOLAN'S FAULT), it worked just fine.

I'm also going to add that, while I thought of Batman Begins during the early flashback sections of the movie, a good majority of it also FELT A WHOLE HELL OF A LOT LIKE LOST, complete with the *whoosh*es. So... yeah.

All that said, it was almost as if Zack Snyder felt constricted by all of that backstory stuff and couldn't wait to jump into the action, so about the last hour or so is him pummeling us with lots of exploding buildings and fist fights... which were awesome, no question, but they also felt like they belonged in a different movie, like the sequel to this one.

Now, some of the action was quite confusing... for example, how is it that Zod and Superman were throwing each other through standing, well-lit buildings when moments earlier we had seen a bunch of these same buildings getting reduced to rubble? Did I miss the part where one guy threw another guy into a suburb of Metropolis, to another city filled with standing buildings with working power so they could continue scrappin'?

I also almost hate to say this, but I'm trying to figure out why we needed Zod in this movie, or more accurately why there was so little of him. I didn't have a problem with Michael Shannon's performance, but he didn't have very much to do but yell and glare menacingly. And I never really bought him as a threat; it would have been nice to see more of his military cunning and/or political smarts and/or brute force in the beginning, just to let us know that he's a problem that would haunt Kal-El going forward. As is, we root against Zod because it's Zod and we know who he is from the previous movie.

I also could have done without the kiss. Or at least saved it for later.

BTW

(SPOILER)

Did anyone catch the "LexCorp" semi truck during the destruction of Metropolis? I'm sure there are more easter eggs like that that we will catch... in fact I just read about some sort of Batman easter egg...

I thought that Henry Cavill was okay. The ladies in the audience were digging him, so, fine. Just keep your shirt on in the sequels, b, we don't need to see all that bullshit. I thought that Russell Crowe, Kevin Costner, Diane Lane, and Amy Adams were great. Larry Fishburne was cool but he didn't have much to do but be gruff.

Also, the fucking score for this movie goes hard. Hans Zimmer has done it again.

Overall, I have to say, it's a movie that I enjoyed more than I didn't. Your mileage may vary.

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OldPro
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46. "Agree on the kiss (spoilers)"
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

I've seen some reviews complaining about the lack of a romance.. i love the fact it was de-emphasized and really wish it had just been been left to the one hand hold on the ship. The scope of everything is so epic that there really is no time to be getting all lovie-dovey and shit.. this the damn Apocalypse not date night.

Disagree on Zod not seeming like a threat or having much to do.. I thought he damn near stole the movie. He's not supposed to be very 3 dimensional character in the first place.. it's made very clear in the movie that Kryptonians are bred for their jobs and Zod's is of a single purpose. Shannon took that and performed it with an almost religious conviction.. loved his performance every bit had much as HL's Joker, albeit in a different way. Zod and his female side kick were the best one two punch villain combo ever.

And I never really had trouble following the action.. that was pretty much what I've been waiting for super hero fights to look like since the comic craze began. I never thought I'd see a mainstream hero flick allowed to be that violent.. let alone superman. But got damn was it glorious.
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lfresh
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54. "me three"
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

>I've seen some reviews complaining about the lack of a
>romance.. i love the fact it was de-emphasized and really wish
>it had just been been left to the one hand hold on the ship.
>The scope of everything is so epic that there really is no
>time to be getting all lovie-dovey and shit.. this the damn
>Apocalypse not date night.
>


not just that there was zero chemistry between them
while Amy Adams is ok she just didn't fit the role that well
she did her job but it just wasnt enough and it shows in the scenes with them together
wasnt a good fit so by the time it came to the kiss
i was ok but yes the entire audience was like REALLY?
NOW?

which translated to me to zero chemistry
~~~~
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~~~~
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OldPro
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61. "I've never really noticed Amy Adams before"
In response to Reply # 54
Sat Jun-15-13 01:03 PM by OldPro

  

          

But it was pretty funny hearing 3 different groups of people (one being my wife and daughter) whispering to each other asking if that's Pam from the office.

But yeah you're right there wasn't a whole lot of chemistry but then that could be due to the fact romance wasn't the focal point which goes right back to how out of place that kiss was in the first place.
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lfresh
Member since Jun 18th 2002
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134. "Yeah...nah"
In response to Reply # 61


  

          


>But yeah you're right there wasn't a whole lot of chemistry
>but then that could be due to the fact romance wasn't the
>focal point which goes right back to how out of place that
>kiss was in the first place.


It's just one of those things
They paired her up with a hawt as dude
And she's just not on that level

Like she's pretty I guess
But it's not the same

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
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Mon Jun-17-13 10:04 PM

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137. "Do you want Lois Lane on that level?"
In response to Reply # 134


          

That's kind of the problem with casting Cavill. You don't really want Lois Lane to be a dime but she kind of needs to be to catch Supes' eye, especially in a film like this in which they had such little time together. (To be fair to Adams, there was NOTHING to that role.)

If you want spunkier, Isla Fisher could have made more sense. I think you need a Natalie Portman or Jennifer Connelly type beauty (not that they aren't gorgeous but they can pull off being a reporter) but they're taken. Maybe Rosario Dawson (I'm still in love after Trance) but I doubt WB wanted to add a media/racist shit storm around a film that's tough enough to reboot.

----
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lfresh
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149. "just chemistry"
In response to Reply # 137


  

          

margot kidder was no looker

but there was chemistry
(this could be my nostaglia talking btw)

yes they gave her nothing to work with
and dang it she did try her hardest
but this role simply wasnt for her

who could it have been for?
i dunno no no one you mentioned
i don't know
but i do know there was zero chemistry with who they did select
~~~~
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~~~~
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calminvasion
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205. "Whaat???"
In response to Reply # 149


  

          

>margot kidder was no looker

  

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40thStreetBlack
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208. "Krysten Ritter. n/m"
In response to Reply # 137


  

          

>If you want spunkier, Isla Fisher could have made more sense.
>I think you need a Natalie Portman or Jennifer Connelly type
>beauty (not that they aren't gorgeous but they can pull off
>being a reporter) but they're taken. Maybe Rosario Dawson (I'm
>still in love after Trance) but I doubt WB wanted to add a
>media/racist shit storm around a film that's tough enough to
>reboot.


<----- Long Live The King

  

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jigga
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212. "Zooey "
In response to Reply # 208


  

          

  

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buckshot defunct
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Sat Jun-15-13 09:41 AM

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51. "Yeah. This."
In response to Reply # 42
Sat Jun-15-13 09:42 AM by buckshot defunct

  

          

> I never really bought him as a
>threat; it would have been nice to see more of his military
>cunning and/or political smarts and/or brute force in the
>beginning, just to let us know that he's a problem that would
>haunt Kal-El going forward. As is, we root against Zod
>because it's Zod and we know who he is from the previous
>movie.

The lack of 'depth' I felt was adequately explained by his genetic engineering or whatever the fuck they were doing on Krypton to those babies. He wasn't a complex dude. He was driven by a singular purpose. Which doesn't always have to be as boring as it might sound.

Buuuuuuuut shouldn't that mean he'd be like, really good at his job? I mean, look at that military coup he tried to pull off in the beginning. There didn't seem to be any strategy involved at all. And that carried on for pretty much the rest of the movie. All Zod really had going for him was a lot of powerful tech and a badass crew – who, might I add, seemed to have no problem adjusting to their new superpowers, unlike Zod. So yeah, I kinda found myself wondering why they were taking orders from him. He wasn't bringing too much to the table.

Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if we didn't just get a sci-fi blockbuster with a similar villain (bred for war, superhuman, man without a country, trying to save his people, etc.). But Star Trek Into Darkness is still pretty fresh on my mind, and I thought it did a good job making its bad guy a threat on every level.

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ZooTown74
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Sat Jun-15-13 12:38 PM

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59. "I guess this is what I was saying"
In response to Reply # 51


  

          

>Buuuuuuuut shouldn't that mean he'd be like, really good at
>his job? I mean, look at that military coup he tried to pull
>off in the beginning. There didn't seem to be any strategy
>involved at all. And that carried on for pretty much the rest
>of the movie. All Zod really had going for him was a lot of
>powerful tech and a badass crew – who, might I add, seemed to
>have no problem adjusting to their new superpowers, unlike
>Zod. So yeah, I kinda found myself wondering why they were
>taking orders from him. He wasn't bringing too much to the
>table.

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OldPro
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62. "We all just saw a movie where 100s of 1000s died"
In response to Reply # 51
Sat Jun-15-13 01:07 PM by OldPro

  

          

In some of the most action ever seen in a super hero flick.. But y'all never felt Zod was a threat.... ok

to each his own I guess
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ZooTown74
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Sat Jun-15-13 01:25 PM

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64. "Zod himself vs. Zod and his crew"
In response to Reply # 62
Sat Jun-15-13 01:25 PM by ZooTown74

  

          

And not only that, but Zod relying on someone else's technology to help bring about the death of those "100s of 1000s"

So, yeah, it's a valid note.

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OldPro
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92. "It's a valid note because it's your opinion"
In response to Reply # 64


  

          

most people I've talked to feel otherwise

people just look for and are moved by different things.
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ZooTown74
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95. "Ok"
In response to Reply # 92
Sun Jun-16-13 12:54 AM by ZooTown74

  

          

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buckshot defunct
Member since May 02nd 2003
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66. "A threat in the sense that he had any kind of plan or unique skill set"
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

(Besides screaming until his eyes bulged out and spit fell out of his mouth.)

And as far as the destruction goes:

A) Superman had a lot to do with that too (Hopefully the sequel makes a case for Earth actually benefitting from Superman's presence in some way)

B) Maybe it's just me but seeing 50 high-rises fall to the ground at once is just sort of mind-numbing. I can't process fictional tragedy in those terms. Zod almost frying that family in the train station at least put a face on it.

He did damage but it rang hollow for me.

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ZooTown74
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43. "David S. Goyer interview (swipe) (SPOILERS)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.craveonline.com/film/interviews/519965-exclusive-interview-david-goyer-on-man-of-steel


>Exclusive Interview: David Goyer on Man of Steel

David Goyer explains his changes to Lois Lane, describes the Man of Steel version of Lex Luthor, and talks about plans for Y: The Last Man and The Flash.

June 14th, 2013 William Bibbiani

We owe our modern comic book movies to David Goyer. Let's face it, folks. In many ways, that's the truth. It wasn't until 1998's Blade that Hollywood had the confidence to turn -X-Men into a reality, which in turn gave us Spider-Man, and the growing popularity of the genre led back to Batman Begins, scripted by David Goyer. He took superheroes seriously, and he's turned his talents on Superman for this weekend's release of Man of Steel, which he co-wrote with Christopher Nolan.

We got David Goyer on the phone to talk about the aspects of the character that needed to be updated, the parts that needed to be preserved, why he made a big change to Lois Lane and what his plans are for Lex Luthor in the future. We also got updates on the Y: The Last Man adaptation he's producing, the hope that remains for his cinematic version of The Flash, and the Superman villain he can't imagine using in the new movie franchise that is Man of Steel.

SOME SPOILERS LIE AHEAD.

CraveOnline: In Batman Begins you took some of the aspects of the character that people considered strange or outdated, and you made the “cool” and special again. What elements of Superman did you want to take a crack at and make different than they were before?

David Goyer: Well, one of the methods of working that Chris Nolan and I developed while working on Batman that we applied on Superman was, we accepted very early on that we were dealing with an iconic character that has existed for 75 years. When you have a character that’s existed for that long, that’s already gone through so many iterations in other mediums, whether it be film, or television, or radio, or novels, or comic books, it’s important to boil down that character to his essence. So we did a survey of the comic books and tried to look for the various themes that were sticking over the decades, and after a while certain themes bubbled to the surface and we decided those are the enduring themes. They represent the raw DNA of the character, and those are the things we need to pay attention to.

And there were elements of the savior character. Obviously some people have drawn comparisons to Christ, but there’s also an Old Testament quality. There’s a little bit of the Moses story, in the bulrushes, and Superman as well. I think there were antecedents Hercules, and the epic poems like Gilgamesh and Beowulf. I’ve heard Siegel and Schuster reference those in interviews during the Seventies.

But in that way we said, this is a story about a guy who is a god, who has one foot in the land of humans and one foot in the land of the gods, and he’s got to make his own way and decide which world he wants to live in. It’s a story about two fathers. And it’s a story about an outsider, the ultimate outsider, an alien, and it fits in with this tradition of stories of using someone who is inhuman to show us our humanity.

So we said those are the things that we need to pay attention to. We’re not going to shy away from it, we’re not going to apologize for it. We’re going to lean into it. We also decided that we are not going to lean on the cinematic crutch of kryptonite. So in some ways that made our job even more difficult, because we wanted to have the audience empathize with Superman and potentially exhibit some weaknesses for him, but we couldn’t use kryptonite because we wanted to make our lives difficult.


Did that force you into using Zod as a character, because you needed some who was a physical challenge to Superman?

That was one of the reasons, but we also knew that we wanted this to be a “first contact” story, and I suppose that was the, quote, “innovation” that I came up with when we started talking about the film. I said to Chris, “I want to do this as a first contact story because he represents intelligent alien life. Even if he didn’t have any super powers, his existence on the planet would be literally the biggest that happened in human history. It would change the face of humanity forever. Some people would fear him, some people would not, and that would bring everything into question. I felt that that was an aspect of the character that had always been given a short shrift, both in the comic books and in the movies. So that was kind of our starting point.


You did something with Lois Lane that was very bold. You made her a really good investigative reporter in this movie.

Why was that bold?


“Bold” might not be the right word, but it’s not something that comes across in the other Superman movies. Less so in the animated series, Bruce Timm did a good job with it, but she tends to just duck into crates next to terrorists to get a scoop. Here she’s doing her research, and instead of spending her entire career not being able to recognize Clark Kent as Superman, the first thing she does – it’s in the first half of the movie – is she figures out who Superman is. That really elevates her as a character. It makes her really intelligent.

People have said that the hero is only as good as his villain, and I would add to that, corollary, I’ve always felt that a hero is also only as good as his or her respective loved ones or romantic interests. Superman is this singular character. He’s the most incredible… well, he’s not even a man, but “being” on the planet, and if Lois isn’t pretty fantastic in her own right it just makes him look stupid. It makes him look stupid for falling in love with her.


That was always my problem with the Richard Donner movies. She treats Clark like crap in those movies. Why does he love her so much?

Well then also, she’s got to be… Why, of all the people in the world, does he open his heart to “her?” She’s got to be really special. She’s got to have a lot of gumption. She’s got to be smart, but also we thought… That was one of the elements of the canon that we felt we could alter, because when you’re adapting these characters you have to respect it, but you can’t be completely slavish to it. You have to also take risks in modifying the character. He’s been modified continuously in the comic books and I think that some of the mistakes that previous people have perhaps made with Superman is they haven’t forged new territory. He hasn’t evolved cinematically in the same way that he has evolved in the comic books. So we decided, you know what? She figures out his secret and she doesn’t betray his trust, and that’s one of the things that makes him fall in love with her but it’s also that she serves a bigger function. Because she doesn’t betray his trust, she serves as a proxy for all humanity. That’s one of the things that gets him to say, “Okay, I’m going to side with the humans and not with the Kryptonians.”

Another thing I want to thank you for, and I’m kind of thanking you for this in advance, but you’ve shown it in this film: the “LexCorp” signs seem to imply that we’re getting Lex Luthor, the head of a corporation, somewhere down the line. As opposed to Lex Luthor, subterranean dweller obsessed with real estate.

Yeah.


Was that in the script at all, that they would have these LexCorp signs everywhere?

Yes. (Laughs) So Zack has said that, clearly, Lex Luthor is in this world, as is Wayne Industries, because you see – it’s only there for a second – but (the Wayne Industries logo) is on the satellite that Zod destroys.

Same thing. If Lex is going to exist in the world, we would presumably have to give him the same treatment that we gave Lois Lane in the first film, which is make him a credible character. He’s the corollary to being a good love interest; he’s gotta be a man of incredible intelligence, and presumably a man of incredible wealth and incredible resources.


Do you have a favorite interpretation of Lex Luthor so far? I was always a fan of the Bruce Timm animated one, with Clancy Brown.

Look, I think the work that Timm’s done in the animated world has been some of the best adaptations of the DC characters period.


There’s a sense of enormity to this movie, from the opening first big shots of Krypton to even the death of Pa Kent. In the original movie he just collapses on the ground. Here it’s a huge, epic sequence. Were you ever concerned about making it too big?

No.


Was that even possible?

It’s Superman. He’s the granddaddy of all the characters. It needs to be an epic. Every aspect of it needs to be epic, so it was very important to us that we need to pitch Krypton as a fully-realized alien world. And I wanted Pa Kent’s death to be meaningful in terms of the story. I wanted it to figure into why Clark decides whether or not to reveal himself to the world. I wanted it to be not just something that happens and is incidental. I wanted it to be part and parcel of the movie’s theme.


Thank you for making it big. Was there ever anything that was too big, that you had to scale back? Or was Warner Bros. just throwing money at this movie?

(Laughs) Look, no matter how much money you have it’s never quite enough. We did have to make some budgetary cuts…


What do you miss? What do you feel like is the most tragic loss, that was in the script?

At the end of the day, I don’t think there’s really a tragic loss. I think the movie is absolutely massive, so… It’s funny, it’s not like when Zack came on he added more action. We actually trimmed down a little bit of action. The only place where we trimmed down some action was when Zod and the Kryptonians arrived, he actually kind of did a demonstration of their might. But it was too much. Everyone agreed it was too much.


I can see that. It could accelerate the threat too early.

Yeah. Yeah.


You said originally that you didn’t necessarily want to do a Superman movie.

Yeah.


Now that you’re doing a Superman movie, if you’re in it for the long haul, is there any aspect of Superman that you want to say right now, that we’ll never see? Like Mr. Mxyzptlk or something? Is there anything we should just not get our hopes up for?

You know, it’s hard to imagine that character – and I’m not even going to attempt to pronounce it, because I always get it wrong – it’s hard to imagine that character in this iteration of the film we’ve made. But I learned me lesson by saying I would never do a Superman man film: never say never, because here we are.


Is there any chance of reviving your adaptation of The Flash?

It’s possible! It’s still a script that people like, and I think a lot depends on how well this movie does over the next few weeks.


You can’t go back from that. Are you still producing Y: The Last Man?

I am. We’ve got a script that’s as close as it’s ever been, so knock on wood.


I’m knocking on wood right now.

Yeah, that could go into production next year.


Can that be condensed into one movie? Is that going to be your plan? It’s got to be a journey…

The first movie is meant to function as a standalone, but hopefully continue. Hopefully there will be others.

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ZooTown74
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Sat Jun-15-13 01:16 AM

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44. "David S. Goyer, on the just-fast tracked MOS sequel (swipe) (SPOILERS)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/06/14/david-goyer-tells-me-about-his-plans-for-and-problems-with-the-man-of-steel-sequel/


>David Goyer Tells Me About His Man Of Steel Sequel Plans And Problems

Posted on June 14, 2013 by Brendon Connelly

We believe that Warner Bros.’ plan right now is to get a sequel to Man of Steel underway and only after that move screenwriter David Goyer, and very likely director Zack Snyder, onto Justice League. Unless Man of Steel somehow ends up being a flop – and so far, that’s very much not happening – I would expect them to stick with this scheme.

And it’s not a brand new plan. Back when David Goyer first started work on the Man of Steel screenplay, the studio told him to leave their options open and make sure the film could, if everything worked out at the box office, form the beginnings of DC Comics Movieverse.

So Goyer did that. There’s nothing in this film that should prevent the introduction of a Batman, an Aquaman, a Wonder Woman or a Flash.

But it looks to me, in fact, that while leaving the way open for the introduction of other superheroes, Goyer has simultaneously made some different sequel problems for himself. At the very least, he’s reinvented Superman in such a way that many of the old standby tropes we know from 75 years of comics, radio, TV and film just aren’t going to fly anymore.

I have to say, that’s one of the things I most enjoyed about Man of Steel, and I do feel very curious about what new, distinctive directions sequels will have to take this story and these characters.

Here’s some of what Goyer had to say on the subject of a Man of Steel sequel when I sat down with him yesterday. Check out the problem solving he’s going to have to do – and also the ideas for the follow up that he’s clearly already had.

"Chris (Nolan) was very clear that the Dark Knight trilogy exists in its own finite universe. But everybody is aware that it was Warner’s intention there would be some kind of shared universe.

I believe I wrote a Lexcorp easter egg into the script and we mentioned STAR Labs at one point, which some comic book readers will be aware of. Zack slipped in the Wayne Industries satellite and I first saw that in the rough cut.

The challenge for us moving forward is how to depict Superman in a world like this, in a world where Twitter exists, in a world with social media. To me, the interesting challenge is 'Could he solve hunger in the horn of Africa? What would he do with the Arab Spring? What would he do in Syria?'

Partly you could argue 'How could he not intervene in something like the situation in Syria?' but the other argument is 'Is it a hornet’s nest if her intervenes? Does he have the wherewithal or the knowledge to intervene in something like this?'

To me, that’s the interesting challenge. It’s easier for Batman because he just exists in this little pocket of the world, he’s not violating sovereign airspace every day.

There is musing about Lex Luthor, conversations that Zack and I have had on set, but it all depends on what happens over the next month. There are obviously those Lexcorp easter eggs in the film and clearly you can see from that, to the extent to which we can intuit things about Lex, it’s not the Gene Hackman version. This is a Bill Gates-like Lex that is probably worth 50, 60, 70 billion dollars. It’s a very different Lex."

Okay, let me warn you that from here on out we’re into something more like spoiler territory.

Right. So up next is what David had to say when talking about the lack of a Clark Kent disguise or alias in the film, and how easy it is for folks to recognise this version of Kal-El whenever they see him.

"In our minds there are people in Smallville who know Superman’s secret as well (as Lois), Pete Ross seems to know, there’s probably a couple dozen people who know and we thought it would be interesting if they’re protective of him.

We were able to sidestep the issue of the ludicrous glasses disguise in this film but going forwards, we’re going to find ourselves in a sticky wicket. Zack and I have definitely talked about 'Okay, hmm, this will be interesting.' Clearly Perry White and Steve Lombard see Lois kissing Superman at the end of the film. Perry’s not an idiot. Moving forward, he’s probably going to say to Lois 'What’s up with that?' We’re definitely going to have to go through some story gymnastics."

Thanks again to Goyer for giving up a good chunk of time to talk with me. Please do come back for more from our interview over the weekend.

Man of Steel is on release now.

______________________________________________________________________________________
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OldPro
Member since Dec 10th 2002
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Sat Jun-15-13 01:14 PM

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63. "This has always been one of Superman's biggest problems *Spoilers*"
In response to Reply # 44


  

          


>We were able to sidestep the issue of the ludicrous glasses
>disguise in this film but going forwards, we’re going to find
>ourselves in a sticky wicket. Zack and I have definitely
>talked about 'Okay, hmm, this will be interesting.' Clearly
>Perry White and Steve Lombard see Lois kissing Superman at the
>end of the film. Perry’s not an idiot. Moving forward, he’s
>probably going to say to Lois 'What’s up with that?' We’re
>definitely going to have to go through some story
>gymnastics."

I thought they had made a really smart choice just to skip the whole Clark Kent reporter part but then they go ahead and drop it in right at the end. Just makes no sense for a guy who's tried to keep his identity hidden to walk into a news room in the middle of a mega city. They stuck with this now but didn't have to be.

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Garhart Poppwell
Member since Nov 28th 2008
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Sat Jun-15-13 11:54 PM

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87. "that's where the act comes in"
In response to Reply # 63


  

          

Superman doesn't have to 'play' Clark-he's been Clark all his life
he has to play Clark as being nothing that Superman is
the idea that him having a secret identity is silly is pretty fucking condescending at worse and inaccurate at best

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OldPro
Member since Dec 10th 2002
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93. "It's not even that complex a problem though"
In response to Reply # 87


  

          

it's that clark and superman share a face... period
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Garhart Poppwell
Member since Nov 28th 2008
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195. "we all know that shit doesn't matter"
In response to Reply # 93


  

          

it's fiction
if it makes sense in the world they've created, that's all that's needed

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lfresh
Member since Jun 18th 2002
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Sat Jun-15-13 01:29 AM

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45. "I enjoyed that"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Really appreciated the krypton backstory

Diane Lane, Crowe, Costner were excellent
Michael Shannon was excellent as zod
The child me preferred the Terence stamp version
But again I appreciated the character depth Shannon brought to the role


Best of all
Superman was hawt hawt hawt
God damn lemme go watch immortals
That body was banging


~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

  

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Calico
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47. "LOL"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

....yeah that's a pretty buff dude...i didn't get the sense that he was so built in any scene til he took his shirt off/wore the costume...in all the other scenes, esp when he was just moving around finding his way, he really DID just blend in and i thought that lil part was awesome as it sets up him blending in at the end in with the subtle changes we all criticize

...never saw Immortals either, but i always meant to at some point...

"yes, sometimes my rhymes are sexist, but you lovely bitches and hos should know i'm tryin to correct it"- hiphopopotamus

  

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lfresh
Member since Jun 18th 2002
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Sat Jun-15-13 11:04 AM

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53. "when i told my coworker"
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

what i was doing on a friday evening
she laughed...until i showed her this pic


http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/107222/2130844-henry_cavill_superman_set.jpg


she almost changed her friday plans
lol
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

  

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Kahlema
Member since Jan 31st 2003
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Sat Jun-15-13 02:05 PM

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68. "mmmmhmmm"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

henry caill...has been on my radar since tudors/immortals. hes so sexsi

in this month's Details interview, henry trained very very hard for this movie...consuming 5,000 calories/day and using the grueling Tabata workout methods. since the movie wrapped he lost almost all that bulk from the movie.

but he is still fine.

-------
peace and love

that's when i tiptoed out ur inbox (c) ricky

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lfresh
Member since Jun 18th 2002
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Mon Jun-17-13 09:09 PM

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133. "Riight"
In response to Reply # 68


  

          

>henry caill...has been on my radar since tudors/immortals.
>hes so sexsi


I made it a point to see immortals this weekend
Man that body is noice


>in this month's Details interview, henry trained very very
>hard for this movie...consuming 5,000 calories/day and using
>the grueling Tabata workout methods. since the movie wrapped
>he lost almost all that bulk from the movie.
>
>but he is still fine.

Umpfh
Agreed

He looks good with and without a beard
Hairy chest none hairy chest
That's a good looking man
You have men admitting it (on and off here lol)

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

  

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Ink_Spot
Member since Mar 26th 2004
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Thu Jun-20-13 12:53 AM

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185. "I didn't know chics would trip over dude like that till my date did..."
In response to Reply # 133


  

          

I only remembered him as kid from the Count of Monte Christo......in other news, I loved the movie.... a few qualms about it, but it is my best summer action experience so far.

  

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lfresh
Member since Jun 18th 2002
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Fri Jun-21-13 09:38 PM

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194. "wait wha..."
In response to Reply # 185


  

          

>I only remembered him as kid from the Count of Monte
>Christo......in other news, I loved the movie.... a few qualms
>about it, but it is my best summer action experience so far.

lemme go see if its on netflix
LOL

hey i didn't know either until the trailer
i was like wait
superman is hawt again!
*dives in*
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

  

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Ink_Spot
Member since Mar 26th 2004
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Sat Jun-22-13 07:59 AM

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196. "the kid Mercedes tried to raise as Fernand's (Guy Pearce) kid..."
In response to Reply # 194


  

          

but was really Edmond's (Jim Caviezel)son

  

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Voodoochilde
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Sat Jun-15-13 07:57 AM

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49. "ehhh...."
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Jun-15-13 08:02 AM by Voodoochilde

          

well, i've always been indifferent to Superman, so take that for what you will...

•The things i liked: the EARLY stuff, BEFORE he became Superman, i thought those little flashback clips of Clarks pre Supes development were the best parts of the film to be honest. they had a level mystery/discovery tension and emotional elements to them that, for me, the rest of he film just didnt for the most part. I also liked Amy Adams (but thats less about the movie, and more about her being so darned cute). Oh and the guy playing Superman LOOKED like superman to me. he looked the role of a superhero. i guess one more thing i liked was the 'color tones' of the film, especially in the flashback scenes....not quite black and white but color was pulled bak from those scenes which i thought gave a nice 'feel' to them.


The rest....
•script? corny. Yes i know Superman is/has pretty much ALWAYS been 'in the cornfields' more or less, so i guess i should have expected that. but i dont know, i guess i just felt like there were a lot of 'speeches' and 'quotes', and not so much enough believable dialogue? i was chuckling many times at stuff that probably wasnt intended to be funny.

•there was some cheese on the acting side, but that may have had more to do with the script than anything else.

•honestly, the REST of the film was loud. yup. that about sums it up for me...loud. there was a whole lot of fightin and explodin and crashin for sure. that can be a good thing or a bad thing. here it was mostly just noise for me. (audibly noisy and visually noisy)

•soundtrack felt a tad intrusive.

•there were several 'really??' moments for me. a few too many, EVEN for a movie about an alien dude who's indestructible and can fly....i could list them but i'm too tired and dont want to post any spoilers.

so....while i didnt hate it. i left with an 'ehh' feeling overall.


one thing wanna ask...my wife and i also kinda felt like there were at least a few action sequences/scenarios that felt pretty close to being rip offs of sequences from the Avengers in a way. Anyone else get any of that too or are we just biased cuz we liked Avengers so much?

�
have you listened to
her stuff?
v

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RIP David Williams:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Williams_(guitarist)

  

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lfresh
Member since Jun 18th 2002
92693 posts
Sat Jun-15-13 11:12 AM

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55. "WARNING******SPOILERS**** What 'Man of Steel' gets wrong about Superman..."
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Jun-15-13 11:13 AM by lfresh

  

          

frankly i thought they got this right
if only because it will explain his dealings with luthor going forward and a bit in the past
and on why he just doesn't
that yelling scene in reaction to it was so pain filled
i felt that and knew this wasnt going to happen again
this man of steel is just so damn sensitive
*sniffle*







http://popwatch.ew.com/2013/06/15/man-of-steel-superman-zod-death/

What 'Man of Steel' gets wrong about Superman

The most boring complaint a comic book fan can make about a comic book movie is “They Changed Stuff!” A superhero movie can, should, must be different from the source material. That’s partially just a matter of simple narrative physics.
The typical superhero has several decades of history to draw from, with generations of comic book creators putting their own distinctive spin on the character. The typical superhero movie is around two hours and 20 minutes — a running time that, plotwise, allows for maybe three issues’ worth of content. More importantly, filmmakers should never feel shackled to what’s come before. The Joker in Christopher Nolan’s The Dark Knight is radically different from any earlier version of the Joker, and that turned out just fine. Likewise, the Iron Man trilogy has playfully chopped the character’s comic history to pieces, a strategy that has arguably made Movie Iron Man a much more compelling character than Comic Iron Man ever was.

There are a lot of radical reinventions of the Superman character in Man of Steel. Some of them are intriguing. The film reimagines young Clark Kent as a loner whose superpowers are a source of profound discomfort. The best scene in the movie finds young Clark, freaked out beyond all measure by his sudden ability to see the skeletons inside of people, blockading himself behind a door at school — and his mom slowly talking him down by asking him to focus on the sound of her voice.
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The outcast/age of autism overtones are miles removed from the old-fashioned notion of Clark as an All-American football-playing über-kid; likewise, the film’s portrayal of a young-adult Clark as a job-hopping wanderer feels tapped into our recessionary age. (In Man of Steel, Clark gets his first steady job at the age of 33, which practically sounds optimistic in the current professional climate.) Like pretty much everything in Man of Steel that doesn’t involve punching things, these reinventions of the Superman myth are quickly introduced and forgotten, because the film is only 143 minutes long and there are so many things that need punching. But the changes are interesting: They seemed like purposeful additions.
And then there’s the thing that happens at the end of Man of Steel that was so ill-conceived and poorly handled that you almost start to wonder if anyone attached to Man of Steel knows what makes Superman so special. (SPOILERS FROM HERE.) The film ends with an extended series of inscrutable action scenes where Superman flies places and destroys things while General Zod and his fellow Kryptonians set up confusing Kryptonian technology to destroy things or whatever. Zod’s plan fails because Superman destroys stuff more better than Zod destroys stuff. I’m sorry, that sounds stupid. What actually happens is that Superman opens up a black hole in the middle of a major American city, which is clearly not a stupid thing to do.
All of the Kryptonians die except for Zod, because this is the kind of movie where the climax has to feature the hero and the villain punching each other. (ASIDE: Weirdly, this is the kind of rote climax that Christopher Nolan previously deconstructed in The Dark Knight. I quote the Joker: “You didn’t think I’d risk losing the battle for Gotham’s soul in a fistfight with you?” In Man of Steel, it’s all one big fistfight. END OF ASIDE) Superman and Zod punch and punch and punch each other, sometimes while flying through buildings and sometimes while not flying through buildings. Ultimately, Superman gets Zod in a choke hold, which is kind of like Kryptonite for Kryptonians who are appearing in a movie that’s too cool to have Kryptonite. Zod uses his heat vision to attack some locals. Superman tells him not to. Zod refuses.
So Superman kills Zod.
This is a shocking moment. It’s shocking for all kinds of reasons. Superheroes don’t kill people, but Superman definitely doesn’t kill people. It’s a defining aspect of the character. He isn’t just good, he’s too good. It’s an insanely powerful moment. When it happens, you think to yourself: “Geez, what a radical redefinition of the character. Classically, Superman has never taken a life, even the life of his worst, most homicidal enemy. How will this change this character going forward?”
Answer: It doesn’t change him at all. Lois Lane runs over to comfort him. Cut To: A few days later, and Superman is having extremely forced Iron-Man-and-Nick-Fury banter with General Swanwick about how they just need to trust Superman, because he is Superman and Superman is good. And then Superman becomes Clark Kent and the origin story is finished.
I think this is the single most disturbing plot point in any blockbuster movie this summer. Disturbing, because I get the vibe that the filmmakers don’t even come close to understanding how crazy, how unexpected, how just plain wrong Superman killing someone is. Back in 1986, Alan Moore wrote a famous story about Superman called “Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?” that became the swan song for the first 50 years of Superman’s history. Terrible things happen to Superman over the course of the story — seriously, you gotta read it — and in the end, Superman has to make the ultimate sacrifice. Not suicide; Superman is the kind of guy who would give his life to save a kitten from a tree. No, Superman has to break his first rule and kill someone.
The person he kills is incredibly evil and responsible for untold terrifying actions. Much like in Man of Steel, he is immediately comforted by Lois: “B-But you had to! You haven’t done anything wrong!” Superman does not stand for that, though: “Yes, I have. Nobody has the right to kill … Not you, not Superman … especially not Superman.” Having superpowers doesn’t give Superman the moral authority to decide who lives and who dies; if anything, it gives him less authority, since he has so much more absolute power to abuse absolutely. The crazy thing is that, in Man of Steel, his power is exactly what gives him the authority.
“Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?” was written by Alan Moore right as he was embarking on writing Watchmen. Coincidentally, Zack Snyder did his best to film Watchmen a few years ago, and the weirdest thing about his adaptation was how it captured the graphic novel’s visuals while generally missing the point of the narrative. This was especially true of the violence. On the page, Watchmen‘s violence is relatively unadorned and realistic; onscreen, every violent act was shot with all the gorgeous, hyperdetailed delicacy of a car commercial. You get the vibe that Snyder doesn’t really understand violence in any meaningful real-world context: He can’t help but make violence look “cool.” (When Superman snaps Zod’s neck, I believe there is a sonic boom on the soundtrack.)
But Snyder is an easy target, what with Sucker Punch and that movie about the heroic owls. I’m inclined to think that the whole “Superman kills” plot point originated from David Goyer and Christopher Nolan, who conceived the film’s story together. It makes sense: The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises both asked a number of fascinating questions about Batman’s moral and ethical role in society. Weirdly, both movies came up with radically different answers. The Dark Knight concludes that Batman is a kind of necessary evil for society, a parasite created to kill other parasites before ultimately being extinguished; Rises concludes that Batman is Jesus Christ, basically, although the movie throws in enough complications to make you wonder if Nolan isn’t secretly incepting us. Man of Steel is kind of like Rises without even the bare pretense of sacrifice. If I read the ending correctly, we are supposed to understand that Superman has become a better superhero because he has been forced to kill someone. The movie expects our sympathy: “Poor Superman. He had to kill Zod. That must be so hard for him.”
Or maybe not: In stark contrast to the philosophizing Dark Knight movies, Man of Steel doesn’t talk very much about the main character’s code of ethics; maybe he doesn’t have one. But perhaps accidentally, Man of Steel nevertheless feels topical in one respect. Not to get heavy, but there’s been a lot of talk lately about the use and abuse of government power, and of how drone strikes radically reshape the rules of warfare in terrifying ways. Last year, Esquire writer Tom Junod wrote a piece called “The Lethal Presidency,” written in part as an open letter to President Barack Obama. Junod details how the Obama administration has created a whole sequence of legal maneuvers to justify assassination — part of the sequence being the idea that the people involved in the decision-making (basically, the president) have to struggle with the gravity of killing someone. To the president, Junod writes:
But neither you nor anyone in your administration has allowed the impression that that struggle is anything but an obstacle to be surmounted and that you are anything but resolute in surmounting it. You struggle with your moral qualms about the Lethal Presidency only to gain the moral distinction of triumphing over them — and to claim, as the Lethal President, the higher morality of killing.
Basically, replace “Lethal President” with “Lethal Superhero,” and you have Man of Steel, a movie that allows Superman to kill because it shrugs and says, well, there was nothing else to do, and Superman is a better man for triumphing over the adversity of having to kill someone. Of course, everything about the end of Man of Steel is ludicrous: This is yet another movie, like Star Trek Into Darkness, where, like, half a city is destroyed, and nobody seems to notice. But ultimately, the movie comes down to one question: “Zod is about to kill a human being. What can Superman do? Nothing! Murder is justified!”
The way the movie bends over backward to get to that moment is an embarrassment of plot illogic. The fact that nobody involved in the making of the movie could come up with a clever way for Superman to not kill Zod — like maybe use any of his superpowers besides his incredible ability to punch real hard — says more about the filmmakers than about Superman. The fact that nobody thought that Superman should have any emotional reaction to killing someone is either confusing or incredibly cynical. The fact that this is being sold as family entertainment proves that we are really just screwing with our kids now.
The movie unforgivably tries to have its cake and eat it too, striving hard to make Superman “realistic” while nevertheless overdosing on Christ imagery. It’s a balancing act: They cover Superman in mud and then pretend his hands are clean. Maybe they think his hands are clean. Maybe Man of Steel is a Superman movie that doesn’t understand or even care about basic questions of morality. Maybe Man of Steel assumes that killing is just something heroes do now.
I wonder if the people who made Man of Steel think it’s somehow impressive — or realistic, or even cool — to make their Superman a killer. Personally, I think you’ll need to dig deep into 75 years of Superman history to find an interpretation of the character so shallow, cynical, and just plain ugly.
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

  

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Oak27
Member since Apr 17th 2005
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Sat Jun-15-13 12:02 PM

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56. "*spoiler question/response*"
In response to Reply # 55
Sat Jun-15-13 12:04 PM by Oak27

  

          

Doesn't Superman kill Zod in Superman II? What's the big deal this time around?

  

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eldealo
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Sat Jun-15-13 12:31 PM

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57. "Exactly! No way any of the three would have survived the fall"
In response to Reply # 56


          

into the depths of the Fortress of Solitude. Not to mention, every bone in Zod's body was most likely crushed after having been thrown across the room, slammed into the Fortress wall, shattered hand. Not likely that a mortal would have survived.

  

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ZooTown74
Member since May 29th 2002
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Sat Jun-15-13 12:34 PM

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58. "RE: Superman II (SPOILERS)"
In response to Reply # 56
Sat Jun-15-13 12:36 PM by ZooTown74

  

          

IIRC, I believe Superman lured them into a trap on Krypton and somehow reversed the planet's polarity so that Zod and his army lost their powers, then Superman either threw them or led them to a hole that they fell into and died. So, technically, he didn't "kill" them so much as drain their powers then escort them to their deaths.

Now, as far as Man of Steel is concerned, was it ever established that Superman could never kill anyone? I don't recall hearing any dialogue coming from Clark Kent saying that he could never, ever take a life, nor did I hear anything from Pa Kent or Jor-El telling Clark to never, ever kill...

And that EW piece is probably one of the dumbest things I've ever read. The only thing that this movie "wants to have its cake and eat it to" on is the idea that we're supposed to buy this as the new Superman origin story -- as in, this is the first time we've heard of or seen this character -- while trading on our knowledge of the things that orbit the universe of previous incarnations of said character, ie, the LexCorp and Batman easter eggs that are allegedly in the movie...

In other words, the idea is to throw out any ideas and thoughts and "rules" that you might have held onto from the comics and the previous movies but also be aware of nods to the comics and the previous movies... and since we gotta blame Nolan for something, I'm sure he'll get it for this...

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
85553 posts
Sat Jun-15-13 12:54 PM

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60. "While I agree with the piece that Superman shouldn't have [spoiler verb]..."
In response to Reply # 58


  

          

... it wasn't one of my bigger problems with the film for the reasons you stated. They did a good job of making it a different type of Superman, so while part of me struggled, because to me that's simply not what Supes does, it was not one of my core issues. I'm willing to go along with a new vision, and quite frankly, the "new" stuff (all the humanization, etc) were my favorite parts of the flick.

Maybe the killing would have been more palatable also if he'd not followed it with that awful Vader NOOOOOOO.

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eldealo
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Sat Jun-15-13 04:54 PM

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71. "No. Supes sealed himself inside of a chamber ...."
In response to Reply # 58


          

inside of the Fortress of Solitude (on Earth) and somehow beamed out red sunlight on Zod, Ursa, and Non. Afterwards, he basically sent Zod to his death. It was just portrayed as heroic and clever because Zod believed that Superman would exit the chamber as a mortal man and powerless. Instead, it was the 3 criminals that ended up with no power.
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buckshot defunct
Member since May 02nd 2003
26345 posts
Sat Jun-15-13 05:11 PM

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73. "At least it was *interesting*"
In response to Reply # 58


  

          

That scene got me really thinking, whereas the rest of the stuff generally just had me shrugging. So there's that.

Another thing to consider is that this was his "Uncle Ben" moment, the turning point at which he decides to never take another life. If he learns from this... then the scene could grow on me.

But until that happens, I'm tentatively calling bullshit. You wanna switch up the origin story, the costume, the race, or even the power set of the character, I can rock with it. But when it gets to the point where you're actually changing the character's morality? In a superhero film, nonetheless? Then it's kinda like, what's the damn point?

-----------------------------
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Monkey Genius
Member since Mar 04th 2005
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Sat Jun-15-13 01:27 PM

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65. "Well, in the Donner version..."
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

...there's apparently a scene at the end where they're taken off to jail.

But in the cinematic version, yeah, they kinda plummet into a bottomless, ambiguous nothingness.

Also Superman beats up a trucker.

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ShinobiShaw
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Sat Jun-15-13 06:06 PM

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77. "This is why alot of movie critics should not be listened to"
In response to Reply # 55


  

          

All of this nonsense this guy wrote and he couldn't take the time to look up if Superman has ever killed a villain in the comics, hell on the big screen. The answer is obviously yes to both.
The only negatives I have read about this movie including this very same post have been very nitpicky and should honestly be ignored.


http://soundcloud.com/djshinobishaw
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PSN: ShinobiShaw

"Arm Leg Leg Arm How you doin?" (c)T510

  

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lfresh
Member since Jun 18th 2002
92693 posts
Mon Jun-17-13 09:14 PM

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135. "Yeah..."
In response to Reply # 77


  

          

I did even read the comics

But he's really off on this
I shared in here hoping you guys would poke more holes in this cocamammy piece
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
25919 posts
Sat Jun-15-13 09:31 PM

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82. "Like nobody died...."
In response to Reply # 55
Sat Jun-15-13 09:33 PM by SoulHonky

          

When Superman was blindly throwing Zod through buildings, into trains and making them explode. I'm not sure there was a single point in that fight where it was like, "Maybe I shouldn't do this because it could kill Zod." or even "Man, I should watch what I do and make sure there aren't any innocent bystanders who get hurt."

The killing of Zod would have been a huge moment if it happened in a second or third film. With so much to set-up in the first one, the impact of Superman killing someone just wasn't there. I mean, he let his Dad die to protect his secret; he's not going to kill a dude who's destroying the Earth?

----
NBA MOCK DRAFT #1 - https://thecourierclass.com/whole-shebang/2017/5/18/2017-nba-mock-draft-1-just-lotto-and-lotta-trades

  

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b.Touch
Member since Jun 28th 2011
20514 posts
Sat Jun-15-13 11:10 PM

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83. "RE: WARNING******SPOILERS**** What 'Man of Steel' gets wrong about Supe..."
In response to Reply # 55


  

          

FUCK ALL THAT!! GOT DAMMIT, KILL HIS ASS!!

  

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RS
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Mon Jun-17-13 05:11 PM

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119. "Zod's crew didn't die"
In response to Reply # 55


          

They got sucked back into the black hole/phantom zone.....

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
25919 posts
Mon Jun-17-13 05:35 PM

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120. "With no way out though"
In response to Reply # 119


          

Unless humans come up with the technology to open the phantom zone.

Although now that I think about it, it is confusing why the phantom zone was re-opened by Krypton's destruction but destroying the last objects that could create it wouldn't also just open it back up.

----
NBA MOCK DRAFT #1 - https://thecourierclass.com/whole-shebang/2017/5/18/2017-nba-mock-draft-1-just-lotto-and-lotta-trades

  

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Calico
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128. "it IS confusing but...*spolier*"
In response to Reply # 120


  

          

they WILL get out....hamilton is with them...

"yes, sometimes my rhymes are sexist, but you lovely bitches and hos should know i'm tryin to correct it"- hiphopopotamus

  

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Kahlema
Member since Jan 31st 2003
16850 posts
Sat Jun-15-13 02:20 PM

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70. "not one of christopher nolan's best works"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

nor better than the Batman trilogy but this was a good movie, it showed a lot of character development and the plot was engaging, at times surprising, with what seems like are multiple false-endings.

the krypton and space scenes reminded me a lot of how the recent Star Trek movies were shot stylistically. i felt like i had seen this movie before because of this.

henry cavill was perfect for this role. amy adams wasn't bad, i know a lot of ppl didn't think she did much for the movie. they said they were trying to make this lois lane smarter with substance which is fine but they didn't do a great job winning us over with her.

i really liked russell crowe as jor-el a lot, i hope he's somehow involved in the sequel (despite his fate).

saw this in 3D, which was nice but not a huge enhancement to the viewing experience, in case anyone was considering this route. i couldve done without it.

-------
peace and love

that's when i tiptoed out ur inbox (c) ricky

http://instagram.com/kahlema
http://twitter.com/jazzlema

  

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Garhart Poppwell
Member since Nov 28th 2008
18003 posts
Sat Jun-15-13 11:59 PM

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89. "this wasn't Nolan's work and LOL @ comparing one movie to a trilogy"
In response to Reply # 70


  

          

>nor better than the Batman trilogy but this was a good movie,
>it showed a lot of character development and the plot was
>engaging, at times surprising, with what seems like are
>multiple false-endings.
>
>the krypton and space scenes reminded me a lot of how the
>recent Star Trek movies were shot stylistically. i felt like i
>had seen this movie before because of this.
>
>henry cavill was perfect for this role. amy adams wasn't bad,
>i know a lot of ppl didn't think she did much for the movie.
>they said they were trying to make this lois lane smarter with
>substance which is fine but they didn't do a great job winning
>us over with her.
>
>i really liked russell crowe as jor-el a lot, i hope he's
>somehow involved in the sequel (despite his fate).
>
>saw this in 3D, which was nice but not a huge enhancement to
>the viewing experience, in case anyone was considering this
>route. i couldve done without it.
>

__________________________________________
CHOP-THESE-BITCHES!!!!
------------------------------------
Garhart Ivanhoe Poppwell
Un-OK'd moderator for The Lesson and Make The Music (yes, I do's work up in here, and in your asscrease if you run foul of this

  

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Kahlema
Member since Jan 31st 2003
16850 posts
Thu Jun-20-13 07:23 PM

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191. "i know this."
In response to Reply # 89


  

          

but as a producer i thought maybe he'd have some influence over it.
in some ways it did, but not overwhelmingly.

-------
peace and love

that's when i tiptoed out ur inbox (c) ricky

http://instagram.com/kahlema
http://twitter.com/jazzlema

  

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mrshow
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12567 posts
Sat Jun-15-13 08:23 PM

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79. "Really enjoyed it but it has some flaws"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Some corny dialogue and it's too long but I liked it more than any of Nolan's Batman flicks. They really got the scope right with this one. Sign me up for a sequel.

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
25919 posts
Sat Jun-15-13 09:29 PM

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81. "Boring and Forgettable (Spoilers)"
In response to Reply # 0


          

This film shouldn't have had Zod. There's just too much with Superman to introduce to include Zod and, also, if you have Superman save the day and be known, then Zod's call for Superman or the destruction of the planet seems like a bigger decision.

Actually, that could have been a good Justice League movie. Superman turns himself in, Zod goes back on his deal and tries to terraform the Earth, the Justice League has to free Superman and save the world.
---
The opening action scene was cool and all but having Russell Crowe keep popping up in his Exposition Hologram form to move the plot forward was kind of silly.

Personally, I'd have tried to format it where the arrival of Zod was the beginning of the film. I think the flashbacks could have been a bit more natural if they came during Clark trying to decide whether to turn himself in.
Also, I would have liked it if more of the reveal of who he is and what not came from Zod. It would have added to the Save Krypton or Save Earth dilemma which was basically never even brought up here.

Kevin Costner was given most of the heavy lifting and did a good job but nobody else really had a lot to work with. Although, given that his dad kept saying people weren't ready for him, he was almost ostracized for saving lives, and was constantly running into people who wanted to beat him up, I"m not sure why Clark was so gung ho about saving the human race.

The fight scene with the girl and the big dude was great but after that, I was tired of brute strength beatdowns. There was NOTHING clever about this film. Even the big final plan was just to fly one ship at another and hope they don't shoot you down before you get there. I like Michael Shannon but Zod was at his most imposing when his face was scrambled and you couldn't see him.

None of the human beings were developed in the slighted and the fact that I was supposed to care about that one intern getting killed amidst all of Metropolis getting decimated was borderline laughable. (But at least they learned from Prometheus and didn't run straight while a tall object about to fall on them.)
The kiss was completely unearned. The whole relationship was odd since it was based off of that one conversation at his Dad's gravesight.

The film was competent, I guess, but I have little interest in where Man of Steel 2 goes and I can't imagine remembering much of anything from the film in a year.

----
NBA MOCK DRAFT #1 - https://thecourierclass.com/whole-shebang/2017/5/18/2017-nba-mock-draft-1-just-lotto-and-lotta-trades

  

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andacagar
Charter member
3774 posts
Mon Jun-17-13 11:55 AM

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96. "Henry Cavill was dope, the story sucked. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

1st. The whole Krypton beginning was terrible. Nothing like the krypton that i envisioned or grew up with. What was up with the terrible talking heads and the landscape was horrible. It could have been done so much better. Wouldn't everybody look the same if all the dna was bred from the same bloodlines? What was up with the stupid Jar jar binks like alien Jor-El was flying on and uh it was all just terrible.

2nd. Not enough of Clark kent the boy. The flashbackswere taking up too much time and it had the audience bouncing around too much. How does Clark let his father run into a tornado. he could have ran in and ran out the other side so nobody would have seen him come out or he could have used his super speed and nobody would have sen him go in at all.

3rd. The whole daily plabnet and that chick getting trapped in the rubble, what was the point. No Jimmy Olsen? Him turning into Clark Kent the reporter at the end after him roaming the country did not make sense it didnt fit right.

4th. Superman DOES NOT KILL. that right there ruined it for me on top off all the other bs.

5th. I liked the old fortress of solitude and the old Zod 1000 times better.

Henry Cavill was dope the story sucked, Zod was not impressive and the storyline just felt forced and jumpy.

  

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BrooklynWHAT
Member since Jun 15th 2007
83182 posts
Mon Jun-17-13 12:15 PM

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97. "goddamn that shit was tight."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

and that ending was #RNS. that "superman doesn't kill" shit never flew w/ me. Zod had to GO.

<--- Big Baller World Order

  

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will_5198
Charter member
61923 posts
Mon Jun-17-13 01:13 PM

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98. "how many summers in a row is Michael Bay going to be copied?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

--------

  

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rdhull
Charter member
32790 posts
Mon Jun-17-13 01:19 PM

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99. "IKR?!!!"
In response to Reply # 98


  

          

The wanton levelling of city skyscrpers is bullshit..Vengers..now this...

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
43374 posts
Mon Jun-17-13 01:26 PM

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100. "No. "
In response to Reply # 98


  

          

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52927 posts
Mon Jun-17-13 01:34 PM

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101. "Worse than 'Dark Knight Rises'. A trite, dumb shitfest. "
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Jun-17-13 01:35 PM by Orbit_Established

  

          


Goodness gracious, that was awful.

More later.

  

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rdhull
Charter member
32790 posts
Mon Jun-17-13 01:42 PM

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102. "'Dark Knight Rises'. was an A grade..Supes is B/B-"
In response to Reply # 101


  

          

>
>Goodness gracious, that was awful.
>
>More later.
>

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
25919 posts
Mon Jun-17-13 02:17 PM

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104. "I'd say Man of Steel C/C+, DKRises D+"
In response to Reply # 102


          

I was bored in Man of Steel. I was annoyed by the stupidity of Dark Knight Rises.

----
NBA MOCK DRAFT #1 - https://thecourierclass.com/whole-shebang/2017/5/18/2017-nba-mock-draft-1-just-lotto-and-lotta-trades

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52927 posts
Mon Jun-17-13 02:31 PM

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105. "TDKR earned the right to suck. MOS sucked from JUMP. "
In response to Reply # 104


  

          


TDKR rises sucked because the only thing that made
the trilogy decent died (RIP) and they ran out of ideas.

It was shitty, but there was actual explanation.

Man of Steel had NOTHING interesting in it. ZERO. ZIP.

That makes it worse. How the FUCK do you RUN OUT OF IDEAS
BEFORE THE GUY BECOMES SUPERMAN!?!?!

And we asked them to nail ONE INTERACTION...ONE:

Supers-Lois Lane and they COMPLETELY dropped the ball.


----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
25919 posts
Mon Jun-17-13 02:58 PM

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108. "In terms of a franchise, I could see that."
In response to Reply # 105


          

In terms of standalone movies, I think Rises is a worse film. There wasn't a plot point in Rises that made sense.

----
NBA MOCK DRAFT #1 - https://thecourierclass.com/whole-shebang/2017/5/18/2017-nba-mock-draft-1-just-lotto-and-lotta-trades

  

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rdhull
Charter member
32790 posts
Mon Jun-17-13 02:34 PM

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106. "log off Honky"
In response to Reply # 104


  

          

>I was bored in Man of Steel. I was annoyed by the stupidity
>of Dark Knight Rises.

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
25919 posts
Mon Jun-17-13 02:54 PM

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107. "Rises getting an A is laughable"
In response to Reply # 106


          

I don't even think that most people who liked the movie would go that far. Shit, a majority of movies ever made must all be A+ status if that shit's an A.

----
NBA MOCK DRAFT #1 - https://thecourierclass.com/whole-shebang/2017/5/18/2017-nba-mock-draft-1-just-lotto-and-lotta-trades

  

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rdhull
Charter member
32790 posts
Mon Jun-17-13 03:24 PM

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112. "it sure doesnt get a D..ok lets say B/B- then"
In response to Reply # 107


  

          

>I don't even think that most people who liked the movie would
>go that far. Shit, a majority of movies ever made must all be
>A+ status if that shit's an A.

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52927 posts
Mon Jun-17-13 04:26 PM

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116. "Dark Knight Rises is a C-minus on the its best day. Horrid movie. "
In response to Reply # 112


  

          


Terrible

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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rdhull
Charter member
32790 posts
Mon Jun-17-13 05:54 PM

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121. "OE dont start"
In response to Reply # 116


  

          

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
25919 posts
Mon Jun-17-13 06:03 PM

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122. "Yeah, on a comic book curve I could see C/C-"
In response to Reply # 116


          

Because, good lord, there have been some shitty comic book movies.

But I don't think it touches the A list and even the B movies like Thor, V for Vendetta and Constantine were much better IMO.

So I could see having both Rises and Man of Steel in the C range if grading on a curve with other superhero movies as comparison but I can't see going higher than that.

----
NBA MOCK DRAFT #1 - https://thecourierclass.com/whole-shebang/2017/5/18/2017-nba-mock-draft-1-just-lotto-and-lotta-trades

  

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rdhull
Charter member
32790 posts
Mon Jun-17-13 06:33 PM

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124. "RE: Yeah, on a comic book curve I could see C/C-"
In response to Reply # 122


  

          

>Because, good lord, there have been some shitty comic book
>movies.
>
>But I don't think it touches the A list and even the B movies
>like Thor, V for Vendetta and Constantine were much better
>IMO.
>
>So I could see having both Rises and Man of Steel in the C
>range if grading on a curve with other superhero movies as
>comparison but I can't see going higher than that.


You must not have read my review of it.

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
25919 posts
Mon Jun-17-13 06:41 PM

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125. "Of which? Doubt it would change my mind."
In response to Reply # 124


          

----
NBA MOCK DRAFT #1 - https://thecourierclass.com/whole-shebang/2017/5/18/2017-nba-mock-draft-1-just-lotto-and-lotta-trades

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52927 posts
Mon Jun-17-13 07:24 PM

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126. "Dude has an odd emotional connection to TDKR "
In response to Reply # 125


  

          


Leave him alone, seriously, he gets really really
mad

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
25919 posts
Mon Jun-17-13 07:34 PM

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127. "Nevermind. Went back and looked"
In response to Reply # 125


          

I responded to it back then, agreed with RJ. You brought a lot into the theater with you; saw a different movie than most.

----
NBA MOCK DRAFT #1 - https://thecourierclass.com/whole-shebang/2017/5/18/2017-nba-mock-draft-1-just-lotto-and-lotta-trades

  

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rdhull
Charter member
32790 posts
Mon Jun-17-13 07:53 PM

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130. "RE: Nevermind. Went back and looked"
In response to Reply # 127


  

          

>I responded to it back then, agreed with RJ. You brought a
>lot into the theater with you; saw a different movie than
>most.


I just saw it for what it was :shrug:

  

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SankofaII
Charter member
30751 posts
Mon Jun-17-13 02:00 PM

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103. "decent origin film but the Lois/Clark relationship was so NOT earned"
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Jun-17-13 02:20 PM by SankofaII

  

          

they could have cut a good 30+ minutes off of this.

Michael Shannon as Zod? Great actor but damn the hammy over the top spoiled brattiness of Zod (as interpreted by Shannon) was irritating as hell and he deserved way much more than he got.

Terence Stamp's Zod > Michael Shannon's Zod

plenty of Cavill, but he's Superman so why wouldn't there be less of him?

sidenote: I hope Cavill learns how to be more personable cause wet noodles have more personality than him. His publicity interviews for this stateside and in Europe have been cringeworthy. he sho is purty though (and wearing Gia Carano's back out too currently? he wins for real)

Truthfully, not one character in this movie was that developed.

Amy Adams: damn she is the blandest white woman working in hollywood today. Real forgettable.

I don't know who could have been Lois Lane in this version (anyone would have been an improvement over Kate Bosworth) but wow, she's bland as hell. But she's look great in her 40s though.

Shout out to Russell Crowe's girdle cause you HELD UP A LOT in that movie...shit. did Crowe lift anything other than a mutton leg and some mint jam? smh

lots of explosions, plenty of action and not much else.

it was a B- for me.

Get Out the Room
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/get-out-the-room/id525657893

Some of y'all need this in your life: http://www.psychology.com

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
85553 posts
Mon Jun-17-13 03:07 PM

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109. "The real question is: what Supes/Lois relationship?"
In response to Reply # 103


  

          

Can't believe how hard they dropped the ball on that part.

For beer lovers: http://thebeertravelguide.com
For movie lovers: http://russellhainline.com

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
25919 posts
Mon Jun-17-13 03:15 PM

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110. "Seriously."
In response to Reply # 109
Mon Jun-17-13 03:16 PM by SoulHonky

          

Lois almost had more interaction with Jor-El than she did Supes.

And with tens of thousands of people dead, much of Metropolis laid in ruin, and the last of his kind killed by his own hand, to think, "Yeah, now let me plant a kiss on this girl I just met." was shockingly tone deaf.

----
NBA MOCK DRAFT #1 - https://thecourierclass.com/whole-shebang/2017/5/18/2017-nba-mock-draft-1-just-lotto-and-lotta-trades

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52927 posts
Mon Jun-17-13 03:24 PM

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111. "You guys are being too nice. Lois Lane just sucked. "
In response to Reply # 110


  

          


She was just a bad character.

Like, in every way.

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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SankofaII
Charter member
30751 posts
Mon Jun-17-13 03:30 PM

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113. "RE: You guys are being too nice. Lois Lane just sucked. "
In response to Reply # 111


  

          

>
>She was just a bad character.
>
>Like, in every way.
>


shock of a lifetime, we are in complete agreement.

the reality is that THE Lois Lane is Margot Kidder and truthfully, everyone after her is trying to copy her performance.

I just didn't buy Amy Adams as Lois Lane: she just didn't resonate with me.

I mean, Adams is WAAAAY better as Lane than Kate Bosworth...but yea, Adams as Lois Lane was quite disappointing.

Get Out the Room
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/get-out-the-room/id525657893

Some of y'all need this in your life: http://www.psychology.com

  

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b.Touch
Member since Jun 28th 2011
20514 posts
Mon Jun-17-13 04:37 PM

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117. "I'd like to highly protest &quot;Margot Kidder is Lois Lane&quot;"
In response to Reply # 113
Mon Jun-17-13 04:42 PM by b.Touch

  

          

nothing wrong with her performance within the realm of film I suppose, but if we want fidelity to the character in the comics, hers is not the performance to emulate.

When I think of Lois, I think either of Noel Neill or of Teri Hatcher. I don't think they've really ever got it right in modern feature films.

  

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SankofaII
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Mon Jun-17-13 04:43 PM

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118. "RE: I'd like to highly protest "Margot Kidder is Lois Lane""
In response to Reply # 117


  

          

>nothing wrong with her performance within the realm of film I
>suppose, but if we want fidelity to the character in the
>comics, hers is not the performance to emulate.
>
>When I think of Lois, I think either of Noel Neill or of Teri
>Hatcher. I don't think they've really ever got it right on
>film, except maybe in the Max Fleischer cartoons.


hmmm...I amend my statement. I'd put Margot and Teri in the same area of getting it close to being right.

Both have their own issues in terms of performances (Teri really didn't hit her stride as an actress UNTIL she got older and did Desperate Housewives because she was quite inconsistent as Lois on the show).

I vaguely remember Neill...but i'll have to find that Superman movie with her in it...

Get Out the Room
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b.Touch
Member since Jun 28th 2011
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Mon Jun-17-13 06:31 PM

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123. "RE: I'd like to highly protest "Margot Kidder is Lois Lane""
In response to Reply # 118


  

          

>hmmm...I amend my statement. I'd put Margot and Teri in the
>same area of getting it close to being right.
>
>Both have their own issues in terms of performances (Teri
>really didn't hit her stride as an actress UNTIL she got older
>and did Desperate Housewives because she was quite
>inconsistent as Lois on the show).
>
>I vaguely remember Neill...but i'll have to find that Superman
>movie with her in it...

TheTV show moreso than the serials she was in is where my reference for Neill comes in. Margot was playing a great character, but she was too...I dunno how to phrase it, rough around the edges and "spunky" to play Lois Lane. She should be the middle ground between class and spunk. Amy Adams comes close, but it's still not quite there.

  

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SankofaII
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Mon Jun-17-13 03:31 PM

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114. "RE: The real question is: what Supes/Lois relationship?"
In response to Reply # 109


  

          

>Can't believe how hard they dropped the ball on that part.

um it's a Zack Snyder/Chris Nolan/David S. Goyer production NOT ONE OF THEM knows how to write romance or hell, STRONG women characters...AT ALL.

we know what happened to that....they didn't bother to WRITE a relationship for them.

Get Out the Room
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Some of y'all need this in your life: http://www.psychology.com

  

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Calico
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Mon Jun-17-13 07:41 PM

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129. "LOL exactly"
In response to Reply # 114


  

          

NONE of the recent batman has a believable romance in it....

"yes, sometimes my rhymes are sexist, but you lovely bitches and hos should know i'm tryin to correct it"- hiphopopotamus

  

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rdhull
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Mon Jun-17-13 04:01 PM

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115. "like Underwood and Zoe Barnes"
In response to Reply # 109


  

          

  

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phenompyrus
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Mon Jun-17-13 08:44 PM

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131. "I don't like Superman, but I liked this movie."
In response to Reply # 0


          

Outside of my normal Superman complaints (he's too powerful, glasses to conceal his identity), finally there was an entertaining Superman movie.

http://twitter.com/phenompyrus

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http://getouttheroom.podomatic.com
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Madvillain 626
Member since Apr 25th 2006
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Mon Jun-17-13 08:59 PM

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132. "That last fight was on some Dragonball Z shit."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Zod's chick was more menacing/dope than he was.

The story dragged at times, some super cheesy lines, but overall I was entertained.

-------------------------------
If life is stupendous one cannot also demand that it should be easy. - Robert Musil

  

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BrooklynWHAT
Member since Jun 15th 2007
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Mon Jun-17-13 09:49 PM

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136. "yeah she stole the show. actually gives me hope for Wonder Woman."
In response to Reply # 132


  

          

>Zod's chick was more menacing/dope than he was.
>

<--- Big Baller World Order

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Tue Jun-18-13 10:21 AM

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139. "Yup, I felt like I was watching a live action DBZ. Loved it. "
In response to Reply # 132


  

          

That's exactly how a DBZ movie should look too.

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Tue Jun-18-13 10:06 AM

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138. "This movie further heightened my disdain for film criticism. "
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Jun-18-13 10:09 AM by Cold Truth

  

          

In major ways.

>I
>feel crucial parts of Clark's journey are missing. Such as
>when did he decide to leave and start his journey?

After his dad died. It's the most reasonable point to make that assumption. But really.... when isn't remotely important.

>How did he
>know the ship would be in ice?

He was in the diner listening to people talk about an anomaly found in the ice. He's an alien. He didn't "know", but that was information absolutely worth investigating.

**************************

Now, on to the critics. Spoilers, obviously.

First, if I hear another complaint about how "joyless" this movie was, I may slap someone. Here's a guy who is an alien and can kill people who choose to torment him because he appears weak, but does not because he's a good hearted soul. As an adult, he literally has the weight of the world on his shoulders. He was raised in flippin' KANSAS, quite literally by Ma & Pa Kent. Nothing about that scenario lends itself to the quipping nature of, say, the Marvel movies.

No, this didn't need snappy one liners. It didn't need to make us laugh. We get that from other movies. In THIS movie, we actually got to experience the full weight of those burdens in ways only Batman has ever truly given us. Spiderman makes a run, but not like this.

Second, FOH with the constant references to the Donner films, or the 30's references I've seen floating around. We've had plenty of THAT Superman. Quite frankly, none of them make any real sense for today. They didn't make sense in Returns, and it was glaring. That iteration is great for what it was, for it's time, and the first two Donner films are rightly treasured. We no longer need that story though. We actually got something different, which is a good thing.

Third, all the revisionist talk. I've seen people talk about how Lois should be. I've seen people in this thread talk about how Kidder was the only real on-screen Lois, or perhaps Hatcher. Those were great iterations that were fairly faithful. Again: We've SEEN that. We now have a new angle on the character that's much more interesting. The S meant hope in the books as well, cry me a damn river on that one. The concept of it being essentially a house crest is excellent. There are many iterations, and seeing all this clamoring by the critics for something closer to the one frame of reference they have is grating.

As to the issue of knowing his identity, I read a great point on the matter: it's absurd to expect a great reporter like Lois to be so easily fooled by a pair of glasses. A few people knowing and being protective of that identity is infinitely more plausible- and adds potentially new wrinkles for further films. Someone in here brought up how nobody put two and two together after the Kryptonians showed up to Ma Kent's house. Did we really need that minor detail resolved that badly? At that point Superman was already in their custody anyways. Did we really need to waste 60 seconds showing the telephone game in Smallville?

The flashbacks fit the narrative perfectly and gave us timely character references to illustrate why Clark was the way he was. It was creative storytelling that was very effective. I could see if the flashes didn't coincide with the real time action, but the two were seamlessly in sync.

A few people I've read didn't like the journey of Supes becoming Clark and not vice versa, but that's an excellent way to present it. In fact, it's the angle that makes far more sense. He's always had these gifts, he's always been different, so how does he fit into this world? That's precisely the way to bring Superman to life on the big screen. It makes him infinitely more relatable than, say, Tony Stark.

No, with this movie it seems many wanted a rinse, wash, repeat retread with a little more action. They got something other than what they wanted, and that's the major unifying theme of many negative reviews I've read. Further, it seems very reactive to the Marvel movies, known as much for their witty one liners as their iconic heroes. I love that brand. This isn't that though, and so many of the reviews I'm reading seem to be reacting more to the jokey-joke nature of that brand in contrast to what they wanted from this.

Yes, people flock to Batman and expect more brooding in that story. Why should Superman be any different? Realistically speaking, his story mirrors Batman. The key difference between them is that Bruce has to dress up and use all this tech to be more than a man; Clark simply IS more than a man. Trouble is, people want Superman to be the high school quarterback with the heart of gold. They want him attending eagle scout meetings. This portrayal makes more sense than any other yet brought to film, whether or not it fits your precepts of who Superman is supposed to be.

Lastly, killing Zod.

Let's see: kill Zod, one of the last remaining Kryptonians, or allow him to incinerate a family of four.

BUT SUPERMAN DOESN'T KILL!!!!

Nah, fuck that. I'd rather see a guy with the balls to make such a hard decision. I watched him beg and plead with Zod, and he did what he had to do to save that family. That's honorable. If a cop did that, we'd give him a fucking parade. An actual boy scout doing that would be on the morning talk shows for a month solid. Superman had to murk one of the last surviving members of his own race to save 4 puny humans, and we're upset by that? Bullshit. I don't care what rules were established in the comics. Let's stop acting like he never killed there either.

That isn't to say there aren't valid critcisms, but none of what I addressed here fits that bill. Once in awhile I read reasonable, thoughtful criticisms of movies, but it's usually brimming with trite, paper mache bullshit that crumbles under minimally critical thinking. This movie brought the absolute worst of that element in droves.

  

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stylez dainty
Member since Nov 22nd 2004
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Tue Jun-18-13 10:27 AM

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140. "Movie made me appreciate critics. I should have listened to them."
In response to Reply # 138


  

          

Hated it, and I don't say that often about a movie.

----
I check for: Serengeti, Zeroh, Open Mike Eagle, Jeremiah Jae, Moka Only.

  

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CaptNish
Member since Mar 09th 2004
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Tue Jun-18-13 12:14 PM

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141. "I'll fucking clap to all of this. Hard."
In response to Reply # 138


  

          

.

_
Yo! That’s My Jawn: The Podcast - Available Now!
http://linktr.ee/yothatsmyjawn

  

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BrooklynWHAT
Member since Jun 15th 2007
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Tue Jun-18-13 01:35 PM

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142. "nerds will bitch about anything."
In response to Reply # 138


  

          


>Lastly, killing Zod.
>
>Let's see: kill Zod, one of the last remaining Kryptonians, or
>allow him to incinerate a family of four.
>
>BUT SUPERMAN DOESN'T KILL!!!!
>
>Nah, fuck that. I'd rather see a guy with the balls to make
>such a hard decision. I watched him beg and plead with Zod,
>and he did what he had to do to save that family. That's
>honorable. If a cop did that, we'd give him a fucking parade.
>An actual boy scout doing that would be on the morning talk
>shows for a month solid. Superman had to murk one of the last
>surviving members of his own race to save 4 puny humans, and
>we're upset by that? Bullshit. I don't care what rules were
>established in the comics. Let's stop acting like he never
>killed there either.


you know how it goes. there was no other way that could've ended really. and boy was it satisfying.

<--- Big Baller World Order

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
85553 posts
Tue Jun-18-13 02:31 PM

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146. "The "there's no other way to end it" argument holds no water."
In response to Reply # 142


  

          

There are literally infinite numbers of ways to end it. The writers chose to write themselves into a situation where Superman had to kill to stop Zod. It's not like the writers said "oh no, he has to kill now! No way around it!" There were plenty of ways. They chose to take the "Supes must kill" route.

The movie foreshadowed very blatantly that Superman would have to kill him. The movie then puts itself willingly in a position where Superman will have to kill. Simple as that.

If you're the type of person who thinks Supes shouldn't kill, it's not that you object to Superman making that decision in that moment. You object to the writers putting their character in that position, which could've been easily avoided in millions of ways had the writers wanted to.

Though I'm generally in the "Supes doesn't kill" camp, I wouldn't have had any problem with that change had I been emotionally invested in Supes or Zod. Since I wasn't, it didn't have the impact I wanted for me, personally. The Vader NOOOOO didn't help either.

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Tue Jun-18-13 02:36 PM

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147. "But what's *wrong* with that position? "
In response to Reply # 146


  

          

What's the real issue with it?

IMO it was a fantastic way to challenge what Superman is really all about in this universe. Yes, that could have been done without killing. I don't subscribe to the notion that there's no other way, for reasons you've explained, but I don't agree with the issue itself.

A Superman who is shown to make hard, painful choices for the greater good is infinitely more compelling than the singular morality others seem to prefer.

>Though I'm generally in the "Supes doesn't kill" camp, I
>wouldn't have had any problem with that change had I been
>emotionally invested in Supes or Zod. Since I wasn't, it
>didn't have the impact I wanted for me, personally. The Vader
>NOOOOO didn't help either.

Personally, his scream felt sincere and, well, realistic. It didn't even approach the solar system of that Vader moment.

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
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Tue Jun-18-13 03:04 PM

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148. "Nothing wrong from a storytelling perspective."
In response to Reply # 147


  

          

>What's the real issue with it?
>
>IMO it was a fantastic way to challenge what Superman is
>really all about in this universe. Yes, that could have been
>done without killing. I don't subscribe to the notion that
>there's no other way, for reasons you've explained, but I
>don't agree with the issue itself.
>
>A Superman who is shown to make hard, painful choices for the
>greater good is infinitely more compelling than the singular
>morality others seem to prefer.

I have no problem with shaking up the status quo, though doing it at the end of the first film, instead of, say, saving it for a sequel and giving us more time to get to know the character isn't my personal preference.

At this point, one could argue that the singular morality is much harder to maintain and requires far more effort from Supes to uphold. Killing is the "easy route," as it were. Especially considering it's Superman's first ever fight. The whole singular morality thing wasn't even really established before it was broken. Which, again, I can see why longtime Supes fans really struggle with that.

But again, mine was more of a an execution beef than a principle beef.

>>Though I'm generally in the "Supes doesn't kill" camp, I
>>wouldn't have had any problem with that change had I been
>>emotionally invested in Supes or Zod. Since I wasn't, it
>>didn't have the impact I wanted for me, personally. The
>Vader
>>NOOOOO didn't help either.
>
>Personally, his scream felt sincere and, well, realistic. It
>didn't even approach the solar system of that Vader moment.

I'll just have to respectfully disagree here. Though in my personal opinion, most any character, especially in sci-fi/fantasy, yelling a stretched out "NO" or "WHY?" or anything similar in an emotional moment will always be Vader level embarrassing. Hugh Jackman, one of the most earnest actors alive who I believe could pull off anything, couldn't even pull off the multiple screams he was given in Wolverine. I think it's just an impossible task.

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Tue Jun-18-13 03:12 PM

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150. "I dunno.. I've dealt with some death in the last year"
In response to Reply # 148


  

          

and that scream sounded awfully familiar.

So, I'll grant that it probably resonated with me for that reason.

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
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Tue Jun-18-13 04:04 PM

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151. "No doubt it rings true in real life..."
In response to Reply # 150


  

          

... however, I find in the heightened worlds of sci fi and fantasy, where the line between silly and serious is often so thin, a more understated response plays better.

Octavia Spencer has something similar to a "NOOO" in Fruitvale Station that is absolutely devastating. But the film is so grounded in reality throughout that it naturally feels more genuine, IMO.

Condolences on your loss this year, btw.

For beer lovers: http://thebeertravelguide.com
For movie lovers: http://russellhainline.com

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Tue Jun-18-13 04:11 PM

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152. "Yeah, I'm willing to concede a bit of bias on that particular note. "
In response to Reply # 151


  

          

Bias isn't even the right word, but the personal tie to those emotions ramped it up for me. Condolences accepted, BTW.

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
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Tue Jun-18-13 05:46 PM

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154. "The movie sucked rabbit dick. Be mad, bro. "
In response to Reply # 152


  

          

>Bias isn't even the right word, but the personal tie to those
>emotions ramped it up for me. Condolences accepted, BTW.


----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Tue Jun-18-13 05:52 PM

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155. "It sharted all over Night Dogg's last 5 movies and pissed on the rest"
In response to Reply # 154


  

          

CRY

Have fun with whatever your reply is and make it count. This will be my last response, because I'm not entertaining your wack ass one liners today

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
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Tue Jun-18-13 07:50 PM

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160. "Dude. This movie sucking is just one of those things. Its all good. "
In response to Reply # 155


  

          


Chill out.


----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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Heinz
Member since Dec 26th 2003
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Tue Jun-18-13 02:01 PM

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143. "totally agree with all of this"
In response to Reply # 138


  

          

  

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bwood
Member since Apr 03rd 2006
8231 posts
Tue Jun-18-13 02:16 PM

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144. "So, we can't break down a movie anymore and critize the problems? "
In response to Reply # 138


  

          

>In major ways.
>
>>I
>>feel crucial parts of Clark's journey are missing. Such as
>>when did he decide to leave and start his journey?
>
>After his dad died. It's the most reasonable point to make
>that assumption. But really.... when isn't remotely important.

To me it is. In this version, I feel as if Clark wouldn't leave Ma Kent like that without her giving the push to go ahead.

------------------------------------------
America from 9:00 on: https://youtu.be/GUwLCQU10KQ

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Tue Jun-18-13 02:26 PM

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145. "Because that's clearly what I was getting at"
In response to Reply # 144
Tue Jun-18-13 02:32 PM by Cold Truth

  

          

You can break it down and discuss flaws. It's probably a good idea to make sure they're actual flaws though, and not an issue that's easily resolved by, you know, a little critical thinking. So much criticism is easily debunked. So much is rooted in "well I felt like....." as opposed to any logical connecting of dots.

So much of the criticism of THIS movie was rooted in what people wanted to see verses wether or not what they got was any good on it's own merits.

So much criticism of THIS movie was about rigid notions of what Superman is or isn't, largely based on a limited frame of reference that either ignore or was ignorant of the larger scope of the character.

But film criticism is flooded with hacks. Not all (Frank corrected me on that and I really couldn't argue with him) film criticism, mind you, but it's prevalent.

>In this version, I feel as if Clark wouldn't
>leave Ma Kent like that without her giving the push to go
>ahead.

There's a reasonable implication that it was the death of his father that spurred that journey. While I don't think it would have taken much for a 2 minute conversation where she does this, and do agree that such a scene would be nice, it's hardly vital. It may be vital to you, but that's awfully petty in the grand scheme of the movie. I can understand listing it as a minor gripe, but there's no consequence to this to have any real issue with it.




  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
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Tue Jun-18-13 05:46 PM

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153. "The movie was ass, and nobody with self esteem likes it. Move on. "
In response to Reply # 145


  

          


Seriously, just chill out.

It sucked

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Tue Jun-18-13 05:54 PM

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156. "I stand corrected:This is the last response you'll get. "
In response to Reply # 153


  

          

The box office has already spoken. This shit is fire and there's plenty more to come, and I'll leave it at that.

Enjoy not getting the long, arduous back-and-forth you're obviously itching for

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
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159. "The movie was actually a steaming pile of shit, though. Its a fact. "
In response to Reply # 156


  

          



Its gonna do huge 'bers, and good for it

Movie fucking sucks, though.

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
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Tue Jun-18-13 06:36 PM

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157. "How would it spur him to leave?"
In response to Reply # 145


          

>There's a reasonable implication that it was the death of his
>father that spurred that journey. While I don't think it would
>have taken much for a 2 minute conversation where she does
>this, and do agree that such a scene would be nice, it's
>hardly vital. It may be vital to you, but that's awfully petty
>in the grand scheme of the movie. I can understand listing it
>as a minor gripe, but there's no consequence to this to have
>any real issue with it.

Clark lets his father die so he would not out his powers. Why then, with his mother now widowed and his powers still a secret, would Clark leave home and become a drifter. And once he's a drifter, he goes back to doing what he had been doing (saving people and outing himself like with the bus), which is the anti-thesis of what his father wanted him to do.

And how is the moment that turned him into a drifter and drove him from his home a "petty" moment in the grand scheme of things? It's arguably the biggest character moment of the movie.

----
NBA MOCK DRAFT #1 - https://thecourierclass.com/whole-shebang/2017/5/18/2017-nba-mock-draft-1-just-lotto-and-lotta-trades

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Tue Jun-18-13 07:14 PM

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158. "Nope. What makes you think he left to help people? "
In response to Reply # 157
Tue Jun-18-13 07:16 PM by Cold Truth

  

          

It looked to me like he left to get *away* from people.

The middle of the ocean isn't exactly the place to go to live a life of saving people. He was there when an emergency happened, and made a snap decision to help because he could. He was trying to *hide* from people.

Do you think working at that Diner was due to his need to help people? No, it's a low key job. He saw all he could stands till he couldn't stands no more, and stepped in when Jethro was getting to grabby.

He didn't go there with the intent to help. Thing is, no matter where you go, you'll find someone in need in some capacity.

Further, the moment itself is not petty but it's not exactly necessary to tell the story. It's minor. His father was his guide and mentor. He was gone. Clark was now a man. He let his father die because he trusted him. if you don't think that kind of loss would spur a man to leave home and set out to find himself in the world, I don't know what to tell you except that you're probably a little too determined to find fault where there really is none.

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
25919 posts
Tue Jun-18-13 08:23 PM

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161. "He's finding himself while hiding from people?"
In response to Reply # 158


          

>Further, the moment itself is not petty but it's not exactly
>necessary to tell the story. It's minor. His father was his
>guide and mentor. He was gone. Clark was now a man. He let his
>father die because he trusted him. if you don't think that
>kind of loss would spur a man to leave home and set out to
>find himself in the world, I don't know what to tell you
>except that you're probably a little too determined to find
>fault where there really is none.

First off, stop with the "you're trying too hard to find fault" nonsense. To act like you're being open-minded and then just dismissing complaints as not being legit is the epitome of disingenuousness.

One only needs to look at your explanation to see the fault: Our hero lets his father die and then, with his secret still safe due to his father's sacrifice, abandons his now-widowed mother so he can go out and find himself while hiding from people.
That is both non-heroic and nonsensical and probably the opposite of what Pa Kent envisioned when he let himself get taken by the tornado.

On top of that, Pa Kent's supposedly earth-shattering death changes nothing but Clark's location. He goes from a kid who helps people in Kansas in spite of the fact that it outs him as superhuman, to being an adult who yells at his Dad that he should help people in spite of the fact that it outs him as a superhuman, to being a drifter who helps people in spite of the fact that it outs him as a superhuman.

And then, before he can ever choose whether he should heed to his father's wishes or do what he believes is right and make himself and his power known so he can help people, he's called out by Zod and pretty much the whole discussion is made moot.

This isn't about what people want. Or what people expect. It's about basic storytelling and character development. The key moment in Clark's life did little-to-nothing to change him as a person. Furthermore, the only reason you even need most of that in the story is that it is what gets Clark in a random bar in the middle of nowhere so he can hear about the spaceship.

And then the big climatic moment is about Clark killing someone (which I agree is a stupid complaint because it was never brought up as much of an issue, especially during the destructive fights beforehand. The only people who think it was a moment are Superman fans) and that he might have killed the last of his kind (which is never an issue for Clark throughout the movie and is more about Zod vs. Jor-El).

>The middle of the ocean isn't exactly the place to go to live
>a life of saving people. He was there when an emergency
>happened, and made a snap decision to help because he could.

So in a film in which every flashback deals with whether or not he should help people, we're now dismissing his actions as a "snap decision to help because he could"? Basically everything we ever saw his father, his guide, his mentor, say to him didn't even cross his mind?

>He didn't go there with the intent to help. Thing is, no
>matter where you go, you'll find someone in need in some
>capacity.

I never said he went anywhere with the intent to help. My point was that everywhere he went, he just went back to what he believed. The drifter Clark Kent's sense of duty was pretty much exactly the same as the grade school Clark Kent, except now he flies the coop when he does something rather than having his parents try to dismiss it as the other kids seeing something.

In the end, these issues aren't something that jump out and seem horrible but they are the reason so many people see the film as disconnected and not engaging.

----
NBA MOCK DRAFT #1 - https://thecourierclass.com/whole-shebang/2017/5/18/2017-nba-mock-draft-1-just-lotto-and-lotta-trades

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Tue Jun-18-13 09:34 PM

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162. "Please, eplain how find yourself and hiding is mutually exclusive. "
In response to Reply # 161


  

          

>First off, stop with the "you're trying too hard to find
>fault" nonsense.

I'll do that when it's not happening, sure. I don't find it to be nonsense at all.

>To act like you're being open-minded and then
>just dismissing complaints as not being legit is the epitome
>of disingenuousness.

Nope. Not at all, actually. I don't pretend to be open minded, I just have a reasonable perspective on the movie that doesn't need every last detail explained, especially in light of the fact that so much IS being explained.

It wasn't a mere dismissal either. I gave a reason for it. It's one thing to debate the merits of that reasoning, but to imply that I'm just doing it willy-nilly is to be every bit as disingenuous as you claim I'm being

>Our hero lets his father die

It's a bit more complex than that, for starters. Our hero heeded his fathers wish. He didn't simply let him die, he respected that wish in that moment.

>and then, with his secret still
>safe due to his father's sacrifice, abandons his now-widowed
>mother so he can go out and find himself while hiding from
>people.

Please, explain why that's such a stretch.

>That is both non-heroic and nonsensical and probably the
>opposite of what Pa Kent envisioned when he let himself get
>taken by the tornado.

Please, explain how it's unheroic and nonsensical.

Worse, you're conjecturing what Pa envisioned. Pa told him he'd have to make a choice one day. Pa told him he'd have to choose a side one day. Did you think that would be some moment free of any preceding conflict?

>On top of that, Pa Kent's supposedly earth-shattering death
>changes nothing but Clark's location. He goes from a kid who
>helps people in Kansas in spite of the fact that it outs him
>as superhuman, to being an adult who yells at his Dad that he
>should help people in spite of the fact that it outs him as a
>superhuman, to being a drifter who helps people in spite of
>the factthat it outs him as a superhuman.

So, in other words, he behaved the exact same way the entire time... which pretty much deads any thought of him doing it after Pa's death as nonsensical, since he did the same things as a child.

Tell me again where the fault is in my logic, because I haven't actually seen it yet.

>And then, before he can ever choose whether he should heed to
>his father's wishes or do what he believes is right and make
>himself and his power known so he can help people, he's called
>out by Zod and pretty much the whole discussion is made moot.

His father knew the day would come! He didn't want him to hide forever. He acknowledged that course simply wasn't in the cards repeatedly.

So, please explain exactly when an appropriate moment would have been for him to do that?

Please, detail a scenario sufficient to make this acceptable.

>This isn't about what people want. Or what people expect.

Sorry, but that just means you haven't been reading all of these reviews. It's not really up for debate.

It's
>about basic storytelling and character development.

Yes, and this was well done in the movie. The lack of them spelling out the moment he left home, as though that's not a normal part of damn near every mans life in this country, isn't an example of poor development. For all this talk about that being a key part of the story, it's something so common and standard in the lives of everyone that it's minutiae to fret over the lack of a precise explanation.

>The key
>moment in Clark's life did little-to-nothing to change him as
>a person.


Furthermore, the only reason you even need most of
>that in the story is that it is what gets Clark in a random
>bar in the middle of nowhere so he can hear about the
>spaceship.

No, it's merely the course of events. They didn't "need" any of that to get him in that bar. He could have heard that anywhere. He could have heard that on the news. This is grossly over thinking this in a bad way. No, I'm not going to stop that, because it's true.

>And then the big climatic moment is about Clark killing
>someone (which I agree is a stupid complaint because it was
>never brought up as much of an issue, especially during the
>destructive fights beforehand. The only people who think it
>was a moment are Superman fans) and that he might have killed
>the last of his kind (which is never an issue for Clark
>throughout the movie and is more about Zod vs. Jor-El).

Sorry, you meandered like crazy here. What's the actual point?

>So in a film in which every flashback deals with whether or
>not he should help people, we're now dismissing his actions as
>a "snap decision to help because he could"? Basically
>everything we ever saw his father, his guide, his mentor, say
>to him didn't even cross his mind?

Ahem: his actions were always a snap decision prior to turning himself in. It's not a dismissal, it's what actually happened. The school bus was no less a snap decision than the rig was. It's not a dismissal, it's what happened.

>My point was that everywhere he went, he just went back to what
>he believed. The drifter Clark Kent's sense of duty was pretty
>much exactly the same as the grade school Clark Kent, except
>now he flies the coop when he does something rather than
>having his parents try to dismiss it as the other kids seeing
>something.

I'm not seeing a point being made here. What are you saying, exactly?

>In the end, these issues aren't something that jump out and
>seem horrible but they are the reason so many people see the
>film as disconnected and not engaging.

Nah, some people just aren't very smart and need everything spelled out to the nth degree while others need to nitpick the smallest detail. That's the bulk of the reviews I've read on this.

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
25919 posts
Tue Jun-18-13 10:23 PM

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163. "So Ma Kent's an afterthought"
In response to Reply # 162
Tue Jun-18-13 10:28 PM by SoulHonky

          

>>and then, with his secret still
>>safe due to his father's sacrifice, abandons his now-widowed
>>mother so he can go out and find himself while hiding from
>>people.
>
>Please, explain why that's such a stretch.
>Please, explain how it's unheroic and nonsensical.

Abandoning your mother when she just lost her husband so you can go out and find yourself while hiding from people seems heroic to you? It seems sensible?

You think when most men deal with the loss of their father, they all just think about themselves and leave their mother behind without a thought?

And then, to add salt to the wound, you come back to the mother you left behind to gush about how you found your real father and how life's awesome now?

Great guy that Superman.

>Worse, you're conjecturing what Pa envisioned. Pa told him
>he'd have to make a choice one day. Pa told him he'd have to
>choose a side one day. Did you think that would be some moment
>free of any preceding conflict?

LOL. You're entire stance is based on what you feel was implied and you brag about how you don't need things explained yet when I conjecture it's some grave sin.

You think Pa Kent thought, "Son, I'm hiding your secret from all of these people right now so you can abandon your mother and go be a drifter!"


>So, in other words, he behaved the exact same way the entire
>time... which pretty much deads any thought of him doing it
>after Pa's death as nonsensical, since he did the same things
>as a child.

Uh, no. The point is that the key moment that changes Supermans life doesn't change his life at all. He acts the same way he did before his dad died. The only impact his Dad's death had was that he decided his mother being widowed was the best time to leave Kansas and head out into the world.

He lets his father die because that was his father's wish of how he acted... and then he goes back to acting the same way he acted every moment of his life besides the time he let his dad die. (except now he's on the run when his secret was still safe in Kansas and his dad's sacrifice allowed him to not have to leave his mother and home.)

>Tell me again where the fault is in my logic, because I
>haven't actually seen it yet.

Once again, if Pa Kent's death was some important event, why did it do nothing to actually change Superman's view of his powers, humans, or anything?


>His father knew the day would come! He didn't want him to hide
>forever. He acknowledged that course simply wasn't in the
>cards repeatedly.
>
>So, please explain exactly when an appropriate moment would
>have been for him to do that?
>Please, detail a scenario sufficient to make this acceptable.

AT ANY POINT. When he saved the oil rig would have been a nice time. They could have shown him helping out in pretty much anyway in a manner. Just a situation in which HE MADE A DECISION to own his power.
You're so busy trying to disagree that you are ignoring the fact that the choice that was discussed for half of the film was never the choice he had to make!
It went from a difficult choice: Do I follow my beliefs and try to make a difference but at the same time making myself an outcast? to a fairly easy choice: Do I keep my secret and let Zod kill millions of people?

Seriously, if you can't see how this was a terrible handling of basic story element of Active Decision Making, then you're just not willing to have an honest discussion.


>>This isn't about what people want. Or what people expect.
>
>Sorry, but that just means you haven't been reading all of
>these reviews. It's not really up for debate.

I'm talking about this specific discussion. I could give a shit about critics.


>It's
>>about basic storytelling and character development.
>
>Yes, and this was well done in the movie. The lack of them
>spelling out the moment he left home, as though that's not a
>normal part of damn near every mans life in this country,
>isn't an example of poor development. For all this talk about
>that being a key part of the story, it's something so common
>and standard in the lives of everyone that it's minutiae to
>fret over the lack of a precise explanation.

If it's such a standard part of everyone's life, then you don't spend an hour of a movie on it when it then doesn't really impact the key decision, the hero's character, or pretty much everything.


>No, it's merely the course of events. They didn't "need" any
>of that to get him in that bar. He could have heard that
>anywhere. He could have heard that on the news. This is
>grossly over thinking this in a bad way. No, I'm not going to
>stop that, because it's true.

LOL. Yeah, Clark living in Kansas would have heard about it. Clark on a deep sea vessel would have heard about it. "Merely the course of events" like it's based on a true story or some shit. C'mon man. Now you're just being silly.


>>And then the big climatic moment is about Clark killing
>>someone (which I agree is a stupid complaint because it was
>>never brought up as much of an issue, especially during the
>>destructive fights beforehand. The only people who think it
>>was a moment are Superman fans) and that he might have
>killed
>>the last of his kind (which is never an issue for Clark
>>throughout the movie and is more about Zod vs. Jor-El).
>
>Sorry, you meandered like crazy here. What's the actual point?

That the first hour of the film has nothing to do with the end of the film. It's basic storytelling.


>Ahem: his actions were always a snap decision prior to turning
>himself in. It's not a dismissal, it's what actually happened.
>The school bus was no less a snap decision than the rig was.
>It's not a dismissal, it's what happened.

Now you're just lying. They made a point to show that Clark was weighing his options on the school bus. It didn't go into the water and he just jumped to help out. He thought about it. It wasn't a snap decision at all.


>>My point was that everywhere he went, he just went back to
>what
>>he believed. The drifter Clark Kent's sense of duty was
>pretty
>>much exactly the same as the grade school Clark Kent, except
>>now he flies the coop when he does something rather than
>>having his parents try to dismiss it as the other kids
>seeing
>>something.
>
>I'm not seeing a point being made here. What are you saying,
>exactly?

OK, you're just being dense. A hero's journey requires change. Clark doesn't change at all.


>Nah, some people just aren't very smart and need everything
>spelled out to the nth degree while others need to nitpick the
>smallest detail. That's the bulk of the reviews I've read on
>this.

Again, I don't give a fuck about reviews. It's also laughable how you keep saying you're so smart and don't need thinks spelled out but when I've spelled out my argument, you keep saying you don't understand it.

The core of the film's first hour had nothing to do with the main conflict. That's bad screenwriting. If this was a spec script, it would have been ripped to shreds.

EDIT: Oh, and the idea that people can find who they are while by themselves is nonsense to me. Who you are is defined by how you act amongst/towards others. If you're hiding from people, you're not finding who you really are. Clark's struggle was figuring out how to fit in this world; he's not going to find it while hiding from the world.

----
NBA MOCK DRAFT #1 - https://thecourierclass.com/whole-shebang/2017/5/18/2017-nba-mock-draft-1-just-lotto-and-lotta-trades

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52927 posts
Wed Jun-19-13 06:51 AM

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165. "OUCH!!!! Damn Soulhonky just pouring MAGMA on this dogshit"
In response to Reply # 163


  

          


  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
43374 posts
Wed Jun-19-13 10:35 AM

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169. "To his credit, he's engaging in an actual conversation "
In response to Reply # 165


  

          

Not just trying out his best internet swag one liners.

You should try it sometime.

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52927 posts
Wed Jun-19-13 10:43 PM

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182. "Your favorite movie is stinky stinky. Don't be maddy mad"
In response to Reply # 169


  

          


Mad bro?

  

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bwood
Member since Apr 03rd 2006
8231 posts
Wed Jun-19-13 07:30 AM

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166. "And there it is. Soul Honky you hit the hammer on the head."
In response to Reply # 163


  

          

------------------------------------------
America from 9:00 on: https://youtu.be/GUwLCQU10KQ

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
43374 posts
Wed Jun-19-13 10:33 AM

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168. "Hit the hammer on the head? What did he hit the hammer with? "
In response to Reply # 166


  

          

Usually it's a nail being hit on the head with a hammer. When did we start hitting hammers, and with what?

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52927 posts
Wed Jun-19-13 10:45 PM

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184. "He hit the hammer on your mad"
In response to Reply # 168


  

          


Relax bro

Man of Steel SUCKED man, its all good

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
43374 posts
Wed Jun-19-13 10:33 AM

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167. "Oh lord. I'm rolling my eyes and laughing at this abandonment angle. "
In response to Reply # 163


  

          

>Abandoning your mother when she just lost her husband so you
>can go out and find yourself while hiding from people seems
>heroic to you? It seems sensible?

First: There's literally zero implication she felt abandoned. If that's not an example of nitpicking the smallest detail to have something to complain about, I don't know what is. That's a shining beacon of nitpicking if there ever was one. There's not a solitary shred of evidence in the movie to indicate any sense of abandonment.

Second: yes, it seems sensible, because as I already said... He's a grown ass man. Grown men leave the nest. I dunno what world *you* live in, but that's the natural order of things.

>You think when most men deal with the loss of their father,
>they all just think about themselves and leave their mother
>behind without a thought?

Are you a momma's boy or something? You're so intensely focused on that element I have to ask. It's a very sensible action, actually, but in you're world people are a monolith who always act and react the exact same way. In the real world, we all deal with tragedies, among other things, in different ways. I hate when people hold storytelling to that standard because it's unreasonable to expect people to always react in ways we expect them to.

>And then, to add salt to the wound, you come back to the
>mother you left behind to gush about how you found your real
>father and how life's awesome now?

LOL. Yes, Maw Kent was so hurt by that. OH WAIT, SHE WASN'T. Didn't look like salt on an open wound at all. But hey.... you're obviously making this up as you go along.

>LOL. You're entire stance is based on what you feel was
>implied and you brag about how you don't need things explained
>yet when I conjecture it's some grave sin.

Key difference in the two: my premise is a reasonable, plausible point to assume he left home. For one, all of the other flashbacks with his parents predate his leaving. It's literally the ONLY logical conclusion to arrive at when considering the timing of him leaving. You're just kinda jumping on a menial detail of next to no significance.

>You think Pa Kent thought, "Son, I'm hiding your secret from
>all of these people right now so you can abandon your mother
>and go be a drifter!"

Yikes. You're really pushing this abandonment angle HARD. You should call your mom, man. This is clearly bothering you. No, you're right. Clark shoulda been a good boy and worked the soil on pa's farm his whole life, waiting til Maw died before he set out on his own.

Further, the fact that he became a drifter actually fits everything his father told him: The world would reject him. So if he's a drifter, nobody knows who he is, and when he winds up using his powers, guess what? He can bounce and nobody is the wiser. He's just some guy who did some crazy shit once in that town and was never heard from again. No attachments, no strings, no danger of exposure.

But I suppose when you're THIS determined to shit on something, that doesn't make an ounce of sense. Especially since he ABANDONED HIS MOTHER, right?

>Uh, no.

Uh, yes.

>The point is that the key moment that changes
>Supermans life doesn't change his life at all. He acts the
>same way he did before his dad died. The only impact his Dad's
>death had was that he decided his mother being widowed was the
>best time to leave Kansas and head out into the world.

No, the key moment that changes his life was when he found the ship and learned who he really was and where he was from. The next moment was when Zod showed up and forced his hand.

Paw was there as a guiding light. He was there to mold and shape and lead. Without that influence, who knows what Kal does as a child? Raised by another, who's to say he doesn't beat those kids into a coma? There's literally zero reason why his death has to be some life altering event. We saw a man who's life served to instill a sense of the bigger picture in the life of Clark/Kal. That's the importance of his character. Sorry, but his death didn't need to completely alter his adult life. In real life, people pretty much just keep it moving.

In this movie though? Somehow, it has the precursor an earth shattering, mind blowing 180 degree change.

>He lets his father die because that was his father's wish of
>how he acted... and then he goes back to acting the same way
>he acted every moment of his life besides the time he let his
>dad die. (except now he's on the run when his secret was still
>safe in Kansas and his dad's sacrifice allowed him to not have
>to leave his mother and home.)

Yes, he respected his fathers wish. His father had his own choice to make, and he made it. Oh, back to this insane, creepy abandonment issue you've got. Call your mom, send flowers, do whatever you got to do because that's clearly effected you.

>Once again, if Pa Kent's death was some important event, why
>did it do nothing to actually change Superman's view of his
>powers, humans, or anything?

Losing a parent is always an important event. It does not always lead to some dramatic life change, nor does it need to serve that purpose in a story. That is, unless you're unbelievably rigid on some "screenplay for dummies!" shit.

>AT ANY POINT. When he saved the oil rig would have been a nice
>time. They could have shown him helping out in pretty much
>anyway in a manner. Just a situation in which HE MADE A
>DECISION to own his power.

Like... when he turns himself into the US government to be handed over to the aliens that just threatened the entire world if they didn't turn him in?

Oh, I'm sure you'll say something about how it should have happened somewhere before it happened. You'll say something absurd about how he should have done that in direct correlation to his father's death while living at home with Maw Kent in Smallville for the rest of his life.

>You're so busy trying to disagree that you are ignoring the
>fact that the choice that was discussed for half of the film
>was never the choice he had to make!

Yes, it was.

>It went from a difficult choice: Do I follow my beliefs and
>try to make a difference but at the same time making myself an
>outcast? to a fairly easy choice: Do I keep my secret and let
>Zod kill millions of people?

Except he DID expose himself while keeping his secret (for the most part and) and he DID have to make a DIFFICULT choice in killing ZOD. I guess you missed all that pleading with Zod before doing what was OBVIOUSLY a hard choice. You also missed the primal scream after breaking the mans neck. Clearly, those were easy choices to make. The pleading was for show and the scream was just for kicks.

Having your hand forced doesn't make the choice easy. In fact, it's not hard until that happens.

>Seriousy, if you can't see how this was a terrible handling
>of basic story element of Active Decision Making, then you're
>just not willing to have an honest discussion.

Seriously, I've had an honest, reasonable discussion the entire time. I'm just not flipping through the character motivation 101 handbook while watching the movie so I can hate the whole thing due to minor details not being spelled out to the last jot and tittle.

>>>This isn't about what people want. Or what people expect.
>>Sorry, but that just means you haven't been reading all of
>>these reviews. It's not really up for debate.
>
>I'm talking about this specific discussion. I could give a
>shit about critics.

Except *my* post was mostly about those critics. So, I mean... yeah.

As far as this discussion, it's still pretty clearly about what you and others wanted and didn't get.

>If it's such a standard part of everyone's life, then you
>don't spend an hour of a movie on it when it then doesn't
>really impact the key decision, the hero's character, or
>pretty much everything.

It IS a standard part of everyone's life, not IF, I hate to break it to you. Further, we didn't spend an hour on him drifting. It also doesn't need to impact the key decision and nor 'impact' the character. The point is, it showed us how the character dealt with these situations as a grown man. Young Clark wouldn't have destroyed Jethro's truck, for starters. That's the first and only real example of him lashing out. Young Clark may not have even said anything to him. We saw young Clark grip that fence post until it bent, while adult Clark destroyed a big rig.

But I know; you got that Filmschool Dogma handbook in your hands and can't get past it.

>LOL. Yeah, Clark living in Kansas would have heard about it.
>Clark on a deep sea vessel would have heard about it.

Uh... yeah. Something like that would likely be on the news. Considering a news reporter was there, I'm sure it would have gotten some press at some time, so yes. He could have reasonably heard about it in other ways. LOL@you laughing like it's so far fetched though.

>"Merely
>the course of events" like it's based on a true story or some
>shit. C'mon man. Now you're just being silly.

No, you're just too dogmattic. You said the only reason he was in the diner was so he could hear about the ship in the ice. Basically, you're not even watching the movie if that's how you receive it. You're scrutinizing and grading and double checking that handbook in your mind. That's a shitty way to watch movies.

It's like when someone talks about a great song and then some douchebag talks about how the song sucks because it was based on a basic chord progression with no challenging key changes. It's a terrible way to receive art. You're too focused on how it follows the rules to even pay attention to the whole of the product.

>That the first hour of the film has nothing to do with the end
>of the film. It's basic storytelling.

Cool, but you're wrong. I guess all Paw's talk about having to make that choice one day didn't happen, but whatever.

Oh, and without your meandering, this is what you have in that statement:

"And then the big climatic moment is about Clark killing someone and that he might have killed the last of his kind."

You literally just pointed out an event that happened and made no point about it. You just acknowledged some shit happened.

>Now you're just lying.

No I'm not. Sorry.

>They made a point to show that Clark
>was weighing his options on the school bus. It didn't go into
>the water and he just jumped to help out. He thought about it.
>It wasn't a snap decision at all.

Whatever. He had a choice to make and he made it. The point is that he didn't ride that school bus so he could save people anymore than he became a drifter to save people.

>>>My point was that everywhere he went, he just went back to what
>>>he believed.

It had nothing to do with *where* he was. It was about *what* was happening where he was.

>The drifter Clark Kent's sense of duty was
>>pretty
>>>much exactly the same as the grade school Clark Kent,
>except
>>>now he flies the coop when he does something rather than
>>>having his parents try to dismiss it as the other kids
>>seeing
>>>something.

...That's the point. He's limiting his exposure while he's drifting, as opposed to attracting increasing attention in Smallville.

>OK, you're just being dense. A hero's journey requires change.
>Clark doesn't change at all.

Nonsense. This idea that "a hero's journey requires change" is nothing more than dog(mattic) shit. It's a rule that's great to use as a writing tool but it's absurd to cling to it so rigidly.

>Again, I don't give a fuck about reviews. It's also laughable
>how you keep saying you're so smart and don't need thinks
>spelled out but when I've spelled out my argument, you keep
>saying you don't understand it.

No, I said that twice, and both times you just stated some shit that happened without making any actual point about it. Those weren't arguments at all. It's laughable that you can't simply accept your own shitty communication in those moments. Big whoop. I misused snap decision. It happens. And... where have I said I was so smart?

>The core of the film's first hour had nothing to do with the
>main conflict. That's bad screenwriting. If this was a spec
>script, it would have been ripped to shreds.

LOL.

>EDIT: Oh, and the idea that people can find who they are while
>by themselves is nonsense to me.

Not to me, but knock yourself out. Still, he was never by himself. He went to small and even remote places. He left HOME, not human contact. Hiding doesn't mean you're in a damn cave devoid of human contact. Talk about being dense.

>Who you are is defined by how
>you act amongst/towards others.

Oh, like saving them from a burning oil rig or stopping the local slob from further harassing your coworker? Those are good indications of the kind of person you are.

>If you're hiding from people,
>you're not finding who you really are.

That's not true at all. There's plenty of reflection and meditation and revelation that can take place in solitude. The end *result* may ultimately be *measured* by how you interact with others, but it's preposterous to say that a man cannot find himself by himself. But again... you seem pretty dogmattic about such things, because it's easier to approach it from a black and white perspective. Sounds like a flat, two dimensional character to me. You needed a better writer for your character.

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
25919 posts
Wed Jun-19-13 01:31 PM

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174. "Now you're arguing a contradictory point"
In response to Reply # 167
Wed Jun-19-13 01:39 PM by SoulHonky

          

Your two main arguments so far have been:

1) "There's a reasonable implication that it was the death of his father that spurred that journey."

2A) Grown men leave naturally so the impact of Pa's death should be ignored.
2B) The death of Pa Kent, Clark's "guiding light", wasn't a key, life altering moment in his life. In fact, "There's literally zero reason why his death has to be some life altering event."

Which leads me back to my original question to you, "Why would his death spur Clark to leave?" Why would something that you declare has zero reason to be a life altering event spur him to alter his life?

You claim your reading is "reasonable and plausible" but all you look at are the list of events that happened. It went A and then B so A must have caused B. LOGIC!
But what you completely ignore is the actual situation and emotions involved. When you factor those in, Clark leaving at that moment is anything but reasonable... unless you believe the natural progression to manhood is: father dies, leave mother behind, become a drifter. And I'm sorry but if you think that seems sensible and heroic, then we have completely different concepts of what manhood and heroism are. And no, it doesn't take a momma's boy to think that the optimum time to leave the nest is when your mother has just been widowed.

On top of that, in this latest post of yours, you also argue that 80% of the Pa Kent scenes and most of the events of the first hour plus of the movie aren't important, aren't impactful, yet you still somehow can't understand how critics or people on this board could feel bored or disengaged by the film. As if listening to an hour of shit that doesn't matter is what people want out of a story.

You demand reasons for why people didn't like a movie but then when people look back at the movie and give you the reasons why it didn't work, you argue, "Well, you were just focused on those things and looking for reasons to hate it."
I didn't watch the film looking for all of these things; I watched the film, was bored, and then looked back and tried to figure out why I was bored. And stuff like the first hour not mattering, Clark's key decision being shortcircuited by Zod, the climatic To Kill or Not To Kill/Do I kill the last of my kind moment being something that was barely touched upon during the preceding two hours are the issues that I looked back and saw as why the film wasn't working for me.
Listen, I've liked bad movies before too. I enjoyed "Morning Glory" with Rachel McAdams; but I'm also not so closed minded that I have to say, "You know what, I enjoyed that movie so people who didn't like that movie must have wanted to hate it or are sticking to the rules too much because, you know what, I liked it and that's that." Instead, I can say, "You know, you guys are right, the movie is horribly flawed, but it still worked for me but I understand why you didn't like it and admit it's a pretty poorly told story."

Since you seem incapable of that, I'm going to just make a few more specific notes and tap out of this discussion.
----

>LOL. Yes, Maw Kent was so hurt by that. OH WAIT, SHE WASN'T.
>Didn't look like salt on an open wound at all. But hey....
>you're obviously making this up as you go along.

You ignore the fact that when Ma Kent was told by Clark that he had found his dad, she was not swept up in happiness but rather was upset that she might not have a role in Clark's life anymore. The filmmakers presented her fear of abandonment as an issue yet glossed over the fact that Clark pretty much already abandoned her, which made that moment yet another boring, impactless moment in the film.

Also, given the structure of the film, we open up with him as a drifter and then we build to the explanation of how he got to be this lonely traveler, which culminates in Pa Kent's death and then... nope, that's it. It's an hour of a film that ends with, "So, yeah, then he just left and got on a boat. But, uh... OOH LOOK, ZOD!"

Quality storytelling, I tells ya!


>Like... when he turns himself into the US government to be
>handed over to the aliens that just threatened the entire
>world if they didn't turn him in?
>
>Oh, I'm sure you'll say something about how it should have
>happened somewhere before it happened. You'll say something
>absurd about how he should have done that in direct
>correlation to his father's death while living at home with
>Maw Kent in Smallville for the rest of his life.

No, it would have been Clark making a proactive decision to out himself as a superhuman and deal with the consequences. Not a reactive decision to someone threatening the world.

And it wasn't the decision that Pa Kent talked about either unless you think Pa Kent wouldn't have drawn the line at the WHOLE WORLD being destroyed. He would have said, "No, son, still keep your secret, even it means everyone you're keeping it from is going to be dead in a few days."


>Except *my* post was mostly about those critics. So, I mean...
>yeah.

The post I first responded to was your response to Frank's and it was about a specific point Frank had made.

And with that, I'm out.

----
NBA MOCK DRAFT #1 - https://thecourierclass.com/whole-shebang/2017/5/18/2017-nba-mock-draft-1-just-lotto-and-lotta-trades

  

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bwood
Member since Apr 03rd 2006
8231 posts
Wed Jun-19-13 05:22 PM

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176. "All the points you've made are one I agree with unfortantely "
In response to Reply # 174


  

          

Cold Truth is on some "I'm right your wrong no matter what" bullshit.

------------------------------------------
America from 9:00 on: https://youtu.be/GUwLCQU10KQ

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
43374 posts
Wed Jun-19-13 06:45 PM

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178. "I am right, you are wrong, so is Honky, and it's not bullshit. Cry about..."
In response to Reply # 176
Wed Jun-19-13 06:46 PM by Cold Truth

  

          

>Cold Truth is on some "I'm right your wrong no matter what"
>bullshit.

  

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bwood
Member since Apr 03rd 2006
8231 posts
Wed Jun-19-13 06:52 PM

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179. "See this is why arguments break out with you all the time."
In response to Reply # 178


  

          

You got that fucked up mentality, where your word is all, and whether if someone liked or didn't like it and God forbid has a different reaction or criticism than you did, they're automatically wrong.

That's sad and pathetic.

------------------------------------------
America from 9:00 on: https://youtu.be/GUwLCQU10KQ

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
43374 posts
Wed Jun-19-13 07:12 PM

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180. "Who said anything about automatic? I broke it down. "
In response to Reply # 179


  

          

Cry about it.

  

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bwood
Member since Apr 03rd 2006
8231 posts
Thu Jun-20-13 06:19 AM

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187. "And Soul Honky broke it down on why it didn't work for us"
In response to Reply # 180


  

          

Yet YOU refuse to admit it's a flaw cause again you're always on that "I'm right, your wrong" bullshit you pull in every post.

And stop stealing Sanko's insults, it's sad really.

------------------------------------------
America from 9:00 on: https://youtu.be/GUwLCQU10KQ

  

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SankofaII
Charter member
30751 posts
Wed Jun-19-13 09:12 PM

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181. "RE: See this is why arguments break out with you all the time."
In response to Reply # 179


  

          

>You got that fucked up mentality, where your word is all, and
>whether if someone liked or didn't like it and God forbid has
>a different reaction or criticism than you did, they're
>automatically wrong.
>
>That's sad and pathetic.

what he said.

Get Out the Room
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/get-out-the-room/id525657893

Some of y'all need this in your life: http://www.psychology.com

  

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LA2Philly
Member since Oct 18th 2004
41249 posts
Wed Jun-19-13 05:53 PM

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177. "Pretty much agree with all the faults you mentioned "
In response to Reply # 174


  

          

It was shoddy, disjointed story-telling

---------------------------------
<--The drought is over

"have fun reveling in your pettiness tho" (C) Dula summing up 98% of OKS

"I didnt finish a damn thing...matter of fact I jerked off after she left."
-Kobe speaking to investigators

L D E A

  

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SankofaII
Charter member
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Wed Jun-19-13 10:56 AM

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170. "ETHER! ETHER! ETHER! ETHER!!"
In response to Reply # 163


  

          

HOT AND STEAMY ETHER HAS BEEN DROPPED FOLKS!

Get Out the Room
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/get-out-the-room/id525657893

Some of y'all need this in your life: http://www.psychology.com

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
43374 posts
Wed Jun-19-13 10:59 AM

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171. "I see the standard for what constitutes 'ether' has plummeted"
In response to Reply # 170


  

          

Oh and I'm TOTALLY shocked at the names cosigning it.

  

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SankofaII
Charter member
30751 posts
Wed Jun-19-13 11:53 AM

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172. "RE: I see the standard for what constitutes 'ether' has plummeted"
In response to Reply # 171


  

          

>Oh and I'm TOTALLY shocked at the names cosigning it.

oh cry about it.

your argument was picked apart and you know it.

it happens deal with it and move on.

Get Out the Room
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/get-out-the-room/id525657893

Some of y'all need this in your life: http://www.psychology.com

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
43374 posts
Wed Jun-19-13 11:57 AM

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173. "Cool story. See: my response. "
In response to Reply # 172


  

          

>oh cry about it.

Clearly, I'm crying. I'm so invested in this that I'm shedding tears.

>your argument was picked apart and you know it.

Yeah... not so much, and I already . Sorry to disapoint

>it happens deal with it and move on.

Not today. Deal with it and run along

  

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SankofaII
Charter member
30751 posts
Wed Jun-19-13 04:36 PM

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175. "RE: Cool story. See: my response. "
In response to Reply # 173


  

          

>>oh cry about it.
>
>Clearly, I'm crying. I'm so invested in this that I'm shedding
>tears.
>
>>your argument was picked apart and you know it.
>
>Yeah... not so much, and I already . Sorry to disapoint
>
>>it happens deal with it and move on.
>
>Not today. Deal with it and run along

*golf claps to this sorry comeback. you were ethered*

lizphairsupernovashrug

Get Out the Room
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/get-out-the-room/id525657893

Some of y'all need this in your life: http://www.psychology.com

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
52927 posts
Wed Jun-19-13 10:44 PM

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183. "Yo, just admit this shit sucks and KIM. It making paper. GOOD for it. "
In response to Reply # 173


  

          



Movie sucks tho

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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CyrenYoung
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33354 posts
Tue Jun-18-13 11:51 PM

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164. "i agree with MOST of this..."
In response to Reply # 138


  

          

..everything except adam's version of lois lane

*and its nothing against where they decided to go in this current franchise, i just don't feel adams brings any substance to the character.

that and her voice is a bit annoyin' (lol)


*skatin' the rings of saturn*

..and miles to go before i sleep...

  

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Fructose Soda
Member since Feb 19th 2012
2150 posts
Thu Jun-20-13 01:49 AM

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186. "Booorrrrrrriiiiiiiiiinnnnnnng"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I'm so glad I didn't contribute to the $116.6 million that this bullshit has suckered people into buying.
Where was the heart?
The character build-up?
Maybe I'm just not a comic-book nerd, but this was the driest, bland excuse for a superhero movie I've seen in years.

  

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shygurl
Member since Oct 08th 2002
13005 posts
Thu Jun-20-13 02:24 PM

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188. "lois lane was terrible."
In response to Reply # 0


          

I liked the movie a lot, but they totally blew the Lois character. One thing I've always kinda disliked about Louis is the fact that she was a total bitch, but I understood that her aggressiveness is part of her character. They totally wrote away a major part of what made that character work, and demolished her role as offering anything meaningful to the movie.

  

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shygurl
Member since Oct 08th 2002
13005 posts
Thu Jun-20-13 02:36 PM

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189. "also the biggest plot hole imo (spoiler)"
In response to Reply # 188


          

Why did Zod still chase after superman once he realized that the codex was in Superman's dna? They had drawn a vial of blood while Superman was tied down on the ship, they didn't need to catch Superman to get the codex, they already had it.

  

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Melanism
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20422 posts
Thu Jun-20-13 07:01 PM

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190. "It was disconcerting to see a Superman who didn't care about..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

...destroying what was left of Metropolis to fight Zod only to end up killing him later anyway.

When that LexCorp tanker exploded, the building crumbled and Supes walked away like it was an 80's action movie, all I could think was "I wonder how many people were hiding in there."


-------------------
http://blog.melanism.com
http://twitter.com/Melanism
http://seanlovesthis.tumblr.com
http://www.formspring.me/seanathan
http://www.last.fm/user/Melanism
http://www.flickr.com/photos/meldotcom/

  

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Beamer6178
Member since Jan 09th 2006
6181 posts
Thu Jun-20-13 11:48 PM

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192. "Very good movie"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Let me get my three major gripes out of the way

1) that lame ass kiss
2) the lack of appreciation for how the violence was endangering people's lives
3) all that beat ass fighting and it just took a neck break to dead one of them? FOH

Other than that, I really enjoyed this telling of the story. I kind of missed getting to see a baby Supes pick up a truck but that's more nostalgia, it didn't detract from the film.

To address some of what's been said already, I took Pa Kent's death as Clark's "I'll never stand by and just let something happen again" but right before the tornado, he was discussing that there was more in store for him than just staying in Smallville, so not sure why so many people don't "get" what his next logical step was, it made sense to me.

Stamp was a classic Zod but Shannon, being given an entirely different purpose, did a great job as well. I thought it was very effective tying the genetically engineered "purpose for living" with Zod's singular purpose to preserve Planet Krypton. Made him less of a villain than an embodiment of why Kal-El's birth and salvation was necessary. At the point Krypton cannot be restored, Zod's life loses its purpose so it made sense that he'd HAVE to be killed since he would be hellbent on wreaking carnage to hurt those that took his purpose away. Really don't get all the objections to his death. We're not talking about killing a human being, we're talking about a super being who was only going to kill people.

And totally not understanding how people think the isolated "swagless" Superman is out of place. Every other telling of Superman in TV and big screen has presumed that he was more welcome than feared. Finally the very real notion of people fearing what they don't know and can't control is manifested, as well as the feelings that one can feel knowing they're different, even if more powerful than others. I think it sets up beautifully for sequels but this journey is essential for understanding how he got to this point.

  

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SoulHonky
Member since Jan 21st 2003
25919 posts
Fri Jun-21-13 01:39 AM

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193. "A few questions"
In response to Reply # 192


          

>To address some of what's been said already, I took Pa Kent's
>death as Clark's "I'll never stand by and just let something
>happen again" but right before the tornado, he was discussing
>that there was more in store for him than just staying in
>Smallville, so not sure why so many people don't "get" what
>his next logical step was, it made sense to me.

Since, up to this point in the movie, we'd never seen Clark just stand by and not help someone, and since, right before the tornado, he was arguing against standing by and not helping, why would he need a "I'll never stand by" moment?

It doesn't really seem logical to me that Clark says, "I should help people!" then he doesn't help, which leads him to say, "I should help people!"
Did he really need his father to die to realize that letting people die is kinda shitty? He was already arguing that he should do more so why would he need to do the least to realize that, yeah, he should do more?

Similarly, if Clark was intending to leave and was arguing in favor of helping people, why let his father die? I know it was how his dad wanted him to act but to say, "OK Dad, I'll give you this one but then I'm going to do it my way" makes his father's death ultimately meaningless and somewhat heartless, when you factor in he's now leaving his mother widowed and alone.

And finally, isn't it odd that Clark's reaction to his Call to Arms moment is that he runs away to the furthest corners of the Earth?

---

>Really don't get all the objections to his
>death. We're not talking about killing a human being, we're
>talking about a super being who was only going to kill people.

It's just a change in the canon of Superman. Nolan objected to it because of that.
But in the actual film, not killing Zod made little sense and I do think that Snyder and Goyer were right that, given the film they built, having Zod get sucked into the Phanton Zone (the original ending) wasn't a very satisfying climax. The problem was that they painted themselves into a corner and, rather than rewrite the whole thing, they just threw in yet another bash 'em up fight scene and had Supes do the deed.


>Every other telling of
>Superman in TV and big screen has presumed that he was more
>welcome than feared. Finally the very real notion of people
>fearing what they don't know and can't control is manifested,
>as well as the feelings that one can feel knowing they're
>different, even if more powerful than others.

Do people have a problem with this? I think it's a great idea to add but it's very difficult to pull off and I don't think they succeeded with this film.

----
NBA MOCK DRAFT #1 - https://thecourierclass.com/whole-shebang/2017/5/18/2017-nba-mock-draft-1-just-lotto-and-lotta-trades

  

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Beamer6178
Member since Jan 09th 2006
6181 posts
Tue Jul-23-13 03:30 PM

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210. "some answers"
In response to Reply # 193


  

          

>>To address some of what's been said already, I took Pa
>Kent's
>>death as Clark's "I'll never stand by and just let something
>>happen again" but right before the tornado, he was
>discussing
>>that there was more in store for him than just staying in
>>Smallville, so not sure why so many people don't "get" what
>>his next logical step was, it made sense to me.
>
>Since, up to this point in the movie, we'd never seen Clark
>just stand by and not help someone, and since, right before
>the tornado, he was arguing against standing by and not
>helping, why would he need a "I'll never stand by" moment?
it was actually an "i'll never stand by AGAIN" moment.


>It doesn't really seem logical to me that Clark says, "I
>should help people!" then he doesn't help, which leads him to
>say, "I should help people!"
>Did he really need his father to die to realize that letting
>people die is kinda shitty? He was already arguing that he
>should do more so why would he need to do the least to realize
>that, yeah, he should do more?
there was a conflict between him and his father as to how active a role he should take in altering the course of human events. much of what we see are natural or normal occurrences, motor vehicle accidents, storms, in which lives are lost, but where he can make an actual difference. this had nothing to do with figuring out why "death is shitty," this was about him specifically changing events in a way that humans before then were not accustomed to, and the repercussions of these changes.


>
>Similarly, if Clark was intending to leave and was arguing in
>favor of helping people, why let his father die? I know it was
>how his dad wanted him to act but to say, "OK Dad, I'll give
>you this one but then I'm going to do it my way" makes his
>father's death ultimately meaningless and somewhat heartless,
>when you factor in he's now leaving his mother widowed and
>alone.
his father feared how the world would receive him despite the good he could do and wanted him to protect his identity over protecting other people. his father wanted him to live a "normal life" but he wasn't a normal person so that was never going to work. i wouldn't say his father's death was meaningless at all. it could actually be interpreted in a few ways
1) his father realized that he would never be "normal" and perhaps didn't want to see how the world would react to that
2) his father did not want to shackle him any longer and relieved him of whatever conflict Clark felt, freeing him up to seek out his destiny
3) in coming to terms with why he let his father die, he came to figure out that he DID need to protect his identity in some way so that his life could have some normalcy. seemingly he found that by getting a job at the daily planet.

now it may seem dumb that Pa Kent allows himself to die to send his son a message but this was the same person trying to rationalize to someone with super powers that being a farmer is "just fine."

in terms of "leaving his mom," i mean shit, can't he get to her faster than anyone if need be?

>
>And finally, isn't it odd that Clark's reaction to his Call to
>Arms moment is that he runs away to the furthest corners of
>the Earth?
no, it kind of seems like the right time. even the original superman movie did that. at such a pivotal time, when it's clear his earth parents aren't his REAL parents, the time to discover his destiny is now, especially as things are reaching a tension point, people discovering and starting to look closer and closer at what he's doing.

>---
>
>>Really don't get all the objections to his
>>death. We're not talking about killing a human being, we're
>>talking about a super being who was only going to kill
>people.
>
>It's just a change in the canon of Superman. Nolan objected to
>it because of that.
>But in the actual film, not killing Zod made little sense and
>I do think that Snyder and Goyer were right that, given the
>film they built, having Zod get sucked into the Phanton Zone
>(the original ending) wasn't a very satisfying climax. The
>problem was that they painted themselves into a corner and,
>rather than rewrite the whole thing, they just threw in yet
>another bash 'em up fight scene and had Supes do the deed.
>
>
>>Every other telling of
>>Superman in TV and big screen has presumed that he was more
>>welcome than feared. Finally the very real notion of people
>>fearing what they don't know and can't control is
>manifested,
>>as well as the feelings that one can feel knowing they're
>>different, even if more powerful than others.
>
>Do people have a problem with this? I think it's a great idea
>to add but it's very difficult to pull off and I don't think
>they succeeded with this film.
>

i think it worked very well. even if hostile, anyone with that type of power is viewed as a military threat and a response is mounted BEFORE questions are asked.

  

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b.Touch
Member since Jun 28th 2011
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Sun Jun-23-13 08:10 PM

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197. "Does anyone else feel like this film better matches the Superman"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

comics as they have existed for the last ten years or so than attempting to follow the path laid out by Richards Donner & Lester (which was fine for the pre-Crisis Superman)?

Even down to the violent fight. Superheroes beat each other senseless in the comics (and sometimes in the cartoons as well), causing all sorts of destruction. The level of violence didn't seem that far-fetched to me.

  

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Garhart Poppwell
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198. "the story is combined elements of more modern stories"
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like Birthright and Secret Origin, so it makes sense

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Mon Jun-24-13 09:31 AM

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199. "Shrug, I think so."
In response to Reply # 197


  

          

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
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200. "Doesn't matter. The movie sucks. n/m"
In response to Reply # 197


  

          


----------------------------



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"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

  

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maternalbliss
Member since Jul 05th 2005
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Wed Jul-03-13 12:45 PM

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201. "RE: falls short of greatness"
In response to Reply # 0


          

damn i hate having to say that,lol, but it's true. I still enjoyed it and i am giving it a
Grade B+
The first half was awesome. The second half was not bad but it was a letdown. That whole thing about the ships colliding was ehhh. Still not really sure what the fuck happened. That is my main complaint. The climax should have been a lot better.

  

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Selah
Member since Jun 05th 2002
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202. ""
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Jul-03-13 02:32 PM by Selah

          

by Andrew Wheeler June 21, 2013 10:00 AM

Superman is not like other heroes. He’s not only among the first, and the one who defined the genre; he’s also the best. I mean that in a moral sense. Joe Shuster and Jerry Siegel’s creation, as we understand him today and as he exists in the cultural lexicon, is the ideal of heroic virtue. That perception may change following the success of Zack Snyder’s new movie Man of Steel.

The following contains SPOILERS for Man of Steel.
To begin at the end; the final confrontation between Superman and General Zod in Man of Steel is a source of considerable controversy. The fight ends when Zod tries to kill innocents and promises to kill everyone if Superman doesn’t stop him, and Superman accepts Zod’s ultimatum by snapping his neck.

Some might look at that scene and ask, "What else could Superman have done?" Others might offer alternative endings to the scene. It’s not a useful conversation. It’s the usual, "Who would win in a fight?" The answer is always that the outcome is determined by the writer, and the story bends to fit that outcome. Superman killed Zod not because there was no other choice, but because the people conceiving the story wanted Superman to kill Zod. (By a majority of two-to-one, according to recent reports.)

That is a revealing choice. It tells us that director Zack Snyder and writer David Goyer wanted to establish that there are times when killing is necessary, even for Superman. They believed that this bleak message is the right one to convey using one of the most moral characters in modern fiction.

Can Superman kill? You can contrive a situation in which he has to; it has been done before. Yet I think most people would place the character at the extreme end of the spectrum when it comes to the preservation of life. The moment he absolutely has to end one life to save another should carry so much weight that the story contorts to serve it. I don’t think Goyer and Snyder earned that moment in Man of Steel. You may disagree.

Either way, the choice is troubling, as the movie neglects to send any other moral message. This is not a movie about truth, or justice, or heroism, or sacrifice, or hope.

Hope gets a mention. We’re told the symbol on Superman’s chest represents "hope," but I can’t think of any moment in the movie that shows us that ideal. The characters standing in the wreckage at the end of the movie seem to represent grim endurance rather than hope. We do see a glimpse at the end of the movie of young Clark Kent playing outside with a cape around his neck. That seems hopeful. But as it’s a moment from his past, before everything went to hell, it also suggests that hope is naive.

I think it’s fair to ask what young Clark Kent was pretending to be when he put that cape around his neck. That’s a game you play if you’re pretending to be a superhero, but Superman is the first superhero. Is he being Aragorn? Hercules? The Phantom of the Opera? Do Marvel comics exist in this world, and he’s playing at being Thor?

I raise the point not to be glib, but because I think the moment speaks to the filmmakers’ incomplete conception of Superman as an inspirational figure. This Superman is not something to aspire to. At our screening, at the point at which Superman killed Zod, I heard a girl who was too young to be there say, "Why did the man’s eyes stop? Why did he stop?"

It was a painful moment of instant, awkward context: this little girl is not going to put on a cape and pretend to be this version of Superman. Nor would I want any child to want to be this version of Superman. Snyder and Goyer don’t appear to understand what inspires someone to put on a cape and run around the garden. In this universe, a person puts on a cape because someone gives them a cape.

Superman is not a hero in this movie; he’s a liability. This is a movie where everyone would have been better off - and thousands more people would be alive - if Superman had never come to our planet. It’s hard to see that as a message of hope. If the filmmakers had written it so that Zod had always meant to target Earth, and Jor-El sent his son to stop him, that would place an act of heroism at the story’s core, rather than acts of desperation and revenge. It would make Superman a solution, not a problem. The rest of the story would play out largely the same way, but events would have moral weight. The filmmakers chose to go a different way.

One of the great pillars of Superman’s moral universe is his adoptive father, Jonathan Kent. This movie removes him from that role. In most tellings, Clark Kent learns his values from his decent and upstanding parents. In this movie his father teaches him to lie. He teaches him to put self-preservation ahead of the lives of others. There is no truth and justice here. There is a sacrifice, but it’s not heroic; Pa Kent dies because he’s too stubborn to see that he’s wrong. We know that he’s wrong, because the premise of Superman depends on it. Pa Kent could have been a moral guide; the filmmakers chose to go a different way.

Because the Kents don’t tell Clark to be a hero, it’s not instilled in him as a value, and he has to take the counsel of his birth father, ghostly Microsoft Word paperclip Jor-El. In choosing to root Superman’s virtue in Krypton and not Earth, the filmmakers stole Superman’s formative reason for holding humanity up as worthy of salvation. This origin story does not at any point present the idea that mankind is fundamentally good. The filmmakers chose to go a different way.

And still, there were other opportunities to show Superman’s innate moral core. At one point Clark walks out of the sea and needs to dress himself. He could have asked for clothes, or he could have taken them and left a note and a promise. That scene would then have served to show us that he is a morally upstanding person, someone who goes out of his way to do the right thing. Instead he steals the clothes and sneaks away. The filmmakers chose to go a different way.

Every chance the filmmakers had to illustrate Clark Kent’s fundamental goodness, they went the other way. They made him scheming and vengeful after he gets beer tipped over him. They made him petulant and harmful when he burns a concerned teacher’s hand. They made him reject his own family during an argument, and reject his own humanity during a make-out session. "I hear it’s all downhill from the first kiss." "I think that only applies to humans." (It’s a joke, but the fact that it’s a joke told while sucking face with a relative stranger on top of a smoldering charnel pit lends some weight to the idea that he’s not one of us.)

You might say these are minor beats, small moments that shouldn’t add up to much - but what do we have in the other column, the "illustrations of virtue" column? You could argue that this is the sort of behavior we’re all guilty of, and everyone has to start from somewhere and learn. That’s true. Although Superman is as clear a paragon of virtue as any character in fiction, Clark is allowed a few missteps, a few flaws, especially before he dons the cape.

Yet at some point we need to see what his moral values are. We need to see a dramatic illustration of what he believes, what he chooses. This movie avoids that at every opportunity. Even when he walks away from a confrontation in a bar, it’s not because he wants to avoid violence or revenge, but because he wants to avoid exposure. He follows through on the violence and revenge when he vandalizes the bully’s property.

This Superman is never virtuous. He is never compassionate or conscientious. He never tries to steer the devastation of his fights away from populated areas; nor does he seem to connect with humanity at all. Rather than travel the world looking for people to save, he is a withdrawn recluse who saves people only when they’re about to burn to death in front of him. He literally does the least one might expect from a person with his extraordinary advantages. He can’t be a hero, because he’s bound to the self-preservation code of Jonathan Kent, his other father in the sky, forever whirling overhead somewhere between Kansas and Oz.

The filmmakers could have told broadly the same story and instilled a moral value in there. They could have kept Clark reclusive but played up the urban legend angle; Superman as a guy who travels around the world saving lives with extraordinary feats of strength and bravery, but no cape or costume. It’s the root of that idea that brings Lois Lane into Superman’s story, but Lois only has two heroic acts to base her research on. She finds the story not because there’s an urban legend of a "Superman," but because she follows Bigfoot onto a UFO.

If Clark had rejected his father’s advice and always risked himself to save others, the story could play out the same way but with a different moral core. Then, when Zod comes and tells the world, "Give me Superman," the world would stand up and say, "No." Because the world needs such a "Superman." The world needs hope and inspiration.

The filmmakers chose to go a different way.

Much has been made of the movie’s Jesus obsession, but holding your arms out to the side does not a messiah make. The movie bears no relationship to Christianity; it just borrows some Nazarene drag. Jesus did not snap necks or lay waste to cities. By all accounts Jesus was a solid bro. His story is a resoundingly moral superhero tale of compassion and sacrifice. He was not the sort to tear down power lines around a remote community just to spike a guy’s truck.

There are heroes who behave that way. Long before we got to the neck-snapping incident, I noticed that every choice Clark Kent made was one a hero like Wolverine might make. Wolverine is the guy who gets to be misanthropic and petty and grim and make it all look cool. But Wolverine is not messianic. Wolverine is not a paragon. Jesus Christ would never wear a "What Would Wolverine Do?" bracelet.

Different heroes have different values, different roles, and they tell different stories. For much of the audience, Superman is the virtuous hero, and a story that doesn’t explore this is not a Superman story.

And really, the makers of Man of Steel did not seem overly interested in telling a Superman story. His name is not in the title. It’s squawked out on first mention. When it finally gets said out loud, the soldier delivering the line is "not … impressed by the word," by Snyder’s own design. The "S" on the character’s chest is not an "S." The lead character never claims the identity. The movie never uses the word "Superman" with pride.

And in the end, the villain destroys him. The villain wins. General Zod fulfills his pledge to find Lara Lor-Van’s son, and though he fails to remake Krypton in his image, he succeeds in his bid to commit suicide by Superman. Why does he goad Superman into killing him? Because he wants to bring low the last piece of his pious rival Jor-El. He wants to put a defining stain on Kal-El’s soul.

Because of Zod, Superman can never be great. He can never be the exemplar. He can never be Superman. Not atop the pile of corpses he built. Not after showing so little concern for humanity for so many years. Not when he announced his presence on our planet with the terrible sound of breaking bone.

That is the story that Snyder and Goyer wanted to tell. They made valid choices, and there is obviously an audience that enjoys this version of the story and this version of the character. No one is wrong for saying that they like this version of Superman.

But if you want Superman to be an inspirational figure, I would be surprised if this was your Superman.

One of the most famous lines about Superman features in the opening of the 1950s Adventures of Superman TV show starring George Reeves in the title role. A man cries, "Look! Up in the sky! It’s a bird." You know the rest; at this point it’s over-done. It would be tough to pay homage to it now without being corny. Yet the dialogue serves an important point. For a lot of fans, Superman is someone to look up to in wonder. That’s not a subtle metaphor; he is above us. He is exemplary. He is wonderful.

No one looks up to the sky in wonder in Man of Steel. As shown on the screen, this man does not represent the best in us, and he is nothing to aspire to. Goyer and Snyder chose to strip him of his moral strength, and leave us with the idea that there is no one so pure, so good, that they would not kill in the right situation. Instead of a paragon of virtue, the Man of Steel is a symbol of death and carnage.

If you see a man flying through the sky, don’t gasp and point in awe. Scream and run for cover. No one can save you now.

{ source: http://comicsalliance.com/man-of-steel-moral-superman-review-zack-snyder-david-goyer/ }

  

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AnonymousCoward
Member since Sep 17th 2002
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Wed Jul-03-13 03:23 PM

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203. "It sucked"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I didn't care about any character who wasn't played bu Kevin Costner or Diane Lane. Since when does supes just lay waste to cities? Literally the only person who's safety he cared about was the chick from "Walk Hard: The Dewey Cox Story" who said "smell that shit, Dewey". Well I smelled that shit, and it was called "Man of Steel".

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calminvasion
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Thu Jul-04-13 10:11 AM

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204. "Did it ever"
In response to Reply # 203


  

          

I don't have much history or emotional investment coming in, not a comic book guy or Supes fanboy. But from an urn invested observer, it just did nothing for me. Felt no emotional connection to anyone, and at no point did I feel any angst or fear for humanity or that anything was at risk.

Also, call me whimp or whatever, but there is a point where there is too much action... That last 30 minutes will not be topped in terms of expensive stupidity. It was like what can they smash into that will cost millions in CGI: glass highrises, check. Old gothic buildings check. Museums, check. Let go to space and crash into a random satellite? Check.

All that said ill watch the next one because I like Cavil, although he's too diesel, like pullback just a bit on the HGH. And while Lois sucked, I trust that actress, she just didn't have shit to work with.

  

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eldealo
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Sun Jul-21-13 11:34 AM

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206. "In defense of Man of Steel"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I'll start off by saying that the Zod controversy isn't that big of a deal to me. I rather liked the idea of a Superman that has to actually learn to be close to perfect, rather than just knowing what to do in every situation. To be honest, it always bothered me a little bit that Superman was always so certain about everything. I saw Zod's killing as laying the groundwork for Supes' strong convictions. With billions of lives at stake, I'm glad that Kal made that choice. Of course, the writers wanted this. I am certain things could have been done differently. Honestly, how much different would it have been from Smallville to just trap them in the Phantom Zone? But it's been done in the comics, and the movies. I applaud the new take on Superman, as long as it doesn't become his "thing". Now that he knows what it feels like to take a life, it seems more understandable why he would regard life as a precious thing. I suspect that the sequel will explore the consequences of his actions. If true, I'd find that interesting.

In Superman 2, dude crushes the shit out of Zod's hand and throws him a few hundred feet across the Fortress, most likely shattering every bone in Zod's mortal body. Zod falls down a seemingly bottomless pit. Superman did not save him. Nor did he try to save Non or Ursa. Instead, he and Lois smile at each other, and hug after they've just killed two people, and did nothing to save a third. Superman also seeks revenge against the guy who whooped his ass while he was mortal. So with all of that in mind, I don't get the reverence for the Donner era movies. They have their charm, to be sure. They laid the foundation, but there can be other stories. This was the Superman I've always wanted to see and I have been a lifelong fan of Superman in the comics, and film. I just don't get this insistence that Superman is supposed to be perfect. Having been raised on Earth and in the "heartland of America" by two loving people does not mean he'll always know what to do a few hours after discovering his true heritage. I looked at this movie as Superman Begins. Hell, he was barely called Superman, because he didn't really earn it. I think that was deliberate.

Another thing I take issue with is the complaint over collateral damage. In the Battle of Smallville, Kal is outnumbered and I'd say it is normal that he lost his cool after Zod attacked his mother. I'd be more troubled if he hadn't started wailing on Zod. he did try to protect the soldiers, but he was in a situation that he'd never experienced, so shit gone blown up. In Metropolis, Superman wasn't even present for the worst of the damage since he was off destroying the master World Engine. I could have done with the nano-tentacles though. By the time, he got to Metropolis, most of the city was already in shambles. Frankly, if people were still hanging around, fuck 'em. I mean damn, Zod announces that the world will suffer, and folks are still hanging around in high rises? I'll admit, Supes was a bit reckless, but Metropolis did seem fairly deserted by the time he got there. If folks weren't high tailing it out of Metropolis by the time shit really went to hell, should we be surprised by the collateral damage? That shit happens ALL the time in the comics, and shit is always getting destroyed. As comic bookish as some of the scenes were, the damage shouldn't be so shocking if we are to believe that Superman is as powerful as he is portrayed on screen and in comic books.

I loved the non-linear story telling in this movie and the Krypton sequences. The way Superman's powers were showcased was some of the best shit I've seen in a comic book movie. It was quite thrilling to see Kal take flight. I was quite captivated during the scenes where Clark discovers his heritage and pleased that the film-makers stressed his alien nature. I would have actually liked to see more panic on Earth at this discovery. It was completely glossed over in the Donner movies. I'm not trying to shit on the Donner movies though. Just pointing out that they too had room for improvement, but they get a pass from most people when they don't even seem to realize how many mistakes were made. And don't even get me started on Gene Hackman's Luthor portrayal or the time reversal bullshit. Man of Steel may not have been perfect, but the movie was much better than most critics are admitting. I could have done without some of the cheesy dialogue of course, and the kiss. Still, no way in hell it should be below Superman Returns.




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OldPro
Member since Dec 10th 2002
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Mon Jul-22-13 10:47 AM

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209. "That's why I can't take these critics seriously anymore"
In response to Reply # 206


  

          

>Still, no way in hell it
>should be below Superman Returns.




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bloocollar
Member since Aug 14th 2008
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Sun Jul-21-13 11:43 AM

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207. "shit sucked--"
In response to Reply # 0
Sun Jul-21-13 12:05 PM by bloocollar

          

i swear i dont understand how you invest that much money into a movie and not make sure the script/story is airtight

and WTF, THATS Lois Lane?!

it seems like they purposely find average chicks for these Superhero movies so they dont turn off the female audience

and how was she just popping up everyplace?

i cant believe how bad a story this was

they even managed to make Michael Shannon suck

  

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cgonz00cc
Member since Aug 01st 2002
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Fri Jul-26-13 09:04 AM

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213. "i cant believe people didnt like it"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

is it because it wasnt All Star Superman?

in regards to the Zod death and the collateral damage, i have a feeling those were done with an eye on future movies and will reappear as plot points

also...Superman killed Zod and his comrades in Superman #22 so whats the problem?

  

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40thStreetBlack
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Sat Jul-27-13 01:05 PM

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214. "liked the stuff it incorporated from Byrne's Man of Steel limited series"
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Jul-27-13 01:11 PM by 40thStreetBlack

  

          

like the birthing matrix (the codex in the movie) with Kal-El being the first natural birth on Krypton in centuries, and those hovering servant droids. glad they did a new take on Krypton instead of the sterile crystalline world of the former movies (which was cool in the original movies but it's nice to see an update)

also liked how they took a new angle on Lois and Clark's relationship, rather than sticking to the classic storyline where this super sharp investigative journalist doesn't realize that Clark is Superman with glasses on. really wish someone in the casting process had realized how perfect Krysten Ritter would've been as Lois, but oh well.

the updated versions of Ursa and Non were cool too (I'm assuming that big-ass Kryptonian robot or whatever in Smallville was a nod to Non). Especially the Ursa chick (she had another name here but I don't remember what it was so I'll just call her Ursa), she was badass and pretty sexy too.

ditching Kryptonite and instead having the Kryptonian atmosphere being Superman's weakness was another interesting tweak, although since he can survive in outer space you'd figure he could just hold his breath and be fine, but whatever. guess it's kinda hard to come up with a weakness for Superman that actually makes any kind of sense.

as for Shannon's General Zod, of course it's not as good as Terrence Stamp's Zod, nobody was gonna be. But this Zod is a fanatical zealot as opposed to Stamp's megalomaniacal galactic tin-pot dictator, and bug-eyed Shannon plays a fanatical zealot really well.

cool action sequences although as has been said went into overkill with every building in sight getting destroyed. that flying punch scene was dope though.

oh and that 5 minute alien invasion sequence was better than the entire movie Signs.

anyway a pretty enjoyable superhero movie despite the flaws.


<----- Long Live The King

  

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