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M2
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10072 posts
Tue Mar-05-02 07:41 PM

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"Love Their Sons, Raise their Daughters"


          

I was talking with someone a couple of weeks ago, who made the following comment:

Black People Love their sons and raise their daughters.

In other words, when a son is born that son is unconditionally loved, the bad things he does are accepted as "unfortunately faults" and no one really teaches him how to be a man/adult and carve out a life for himself.

The girl on the other hand, will catch hell for the bad things she does, BUT she is taught how to be a woman/adult and how to go out in the world and carve out a life for herself.

At first thought, it sounds ridiculous right? Well, that's what I thought at least.....until I started noticing somethings in my family and in other Black families.

A few examples:

The son knocks up his girlfriend, they start fighting soon after, son leaves town. He shows up for the birth, leaves 3 days later....over the next 18 months he sends money/support for the kid once.....family members still talk about it. His child is growing up and has never seen her father. People in the family blame the woman for driving the man away, say she got pregnant on purpose, that she's a ho. If you talk about the Son, well, he needed to leave because of the girl, he needed to leave because he needs to get his "shit together", etc.

Sound familiar?

Daughter gets knocked up and almost/does get thrown out of the house. She gets bad mouthed for being a "Ho", it's all because she didn't X, listen to Aunt So and So, shouldn't have been runnin with shaun and them, etc.

If she leaves town and leaves the kid with the Daddy, oh lord...she'll get disowned.

Another Example:

Who is more likely to have the following:

Stable Bank Account
Credit Cards
Their own Car
Their own place
Go to college
Have good credit
A job

The daugthers or the sons?

Secondly, what is the family's reaction to the son when he's not doing well vs. the reaction to the daughter?

How about spousal abuse? I've personally witnessed situations when the family blamed the woman, and/or said that it's a good thing so and so left his family, because she would've driven him to hit her. As if it's his fault.

Simple Arguments: Woman yells at man for not facing up to this responsibilities with his family and other family members chide her for not respecting "The Baby's Daddy" even though the man hasn't done shit to earn anyone's respect.

It seems to me that Black men receive too much protection and "excuses" from other Blacks.....at the detriment to the man receiving the protection and to the community as a whole.

In any event, as a Black man I'm not going to kid myself and say that society isn't more friendly to Black women then it is to Black men, because that's not true.

BUT, on a family level at least, it seems that sons receive less guidance and more forgiveness, perhaps that should be flipped.


Your thoughts?






Peace,








M2












The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
not to post jack
Mar 05th 2002
1
However....
Mar 05th 2002
3
RE: However....
Keyser
Mar 08th 2002
78
asian patriarchy...
Mar 08th 2002
89
Not the same thing
Mar 06th 2002
4
agreeing w/ M2 and Solarus
Mar 06th 2002
22
Opinion
Mar 05th 2002
2
RE: Opinion
Mar 06th 2002
8
It shouldn't be flipped
Mar 06th 2002
5
RE: Love Their Sons, Raise their Daughters
Mar 06th 2002
6
There are always exceptions
Mar 06th 2002
7
i agree...
Mar 06th 2002
9
RE: i agree...
Mar 08th 2002
83
Because of Slavery
Mar 06th 2002
10
that's a lie.
Mar 06th 2002
13
RE: that's a lie.
Mar 06th 2002
16
The 60's.
Mar 06th 2002
19
      Does this mean
Mar 06th 2002
25
      Doesn't matter
Mar 06th 2002
28
           Does matter
Mar 06th 2002
45
                Lesbianism?
Mar 06th 2002
46
                RE: Lesbianism?
Mar 07th 2002
54
                     strong statement.
Mar 07th 2002
59
                     RE: strong statement.
Mar 07th 2002
68
                     RE: Lesbianism?
Mar 07th 2002
63
                RE: Does matter
Mar 07th 2002
53
                     Intertwined???
Mar 07th 2002
55
                     Once again...
Mar 07th 2002
58
                          Poor/ Low Income White People....
Mar 07th 2002
64
                          perception is reality...
Mar 07th 2002
65
                          Just proves my point
Mar 07th 2002
66
                               RE: Just proves my point
Mar 07th 2002
67
                                    RE: Just proves my point
Mar 07th 2002
69
                                         RE: Just proves my point
Mar 07th 2002
71
                                              RE: Just proves my point
Mar 07th 2002
72
                                              RE: Just proves my point
Mar 07th 2002
74
                                                   RE: Just proves my point
Mar 07th 2002
76
                                                        RE: Just proves my point
Mar 08th 2002
87
                                              RE: Just proves...cont.
Mar 07th 2002
75
                                              RE: Just proves...cont.
Mar 08th 2002
86
                                                   RE: Just proves...cont.
Mar 08th 2002
90
                                                        RE: Just proves...cont.
Mar 08th 2002
91
                                              interesting point...
Mar 08th 2002
80
                     RE: Does matter
Mar 08th 2002
84
                          Ghetto=Black?
Mar 08th 2002
85
      to follow up on Cre8's statement
Mar 06th 2002
27
           the problem...
Mar 06th 2002
29
Hmmm. You're suspect.
Mar 06th 2002
17
suspect of what?
Mar 06th 2002
18
During Slave Times...
Mar 06th 2002
33
      RE: During Slave Times...
Mar 06th 2002
35
           RE: During Slave Times...
Mar 06th 2002
41
           The Truth.
Mar 07th 2002
60
                RE: The Truth.
Mar 07th 2002
62
                     RE: The Truth.
Mar 07th 2002
70
                          RE: The Truth.
Mar 07th 2002
73
           RE: During Slave Times...
Mar 06th 2002
48
                RE: During Slave Times...
Mar 07th 2002
61
Post #21
Mar 06th 2002
23
RE: Love Their Sons, Raise their Daughters
Mar 06th 2002
11
this needs to be taken care of
Mar 06th 2002
24
you have a point...
Mar 06th 2002
12
Sad Truth
Mar 06th 2002
14
RE: Love Their Sons, Raise their Daughters
Mar 06th 2002
15
Fortitude, Brotherhood & Honor...
Mar 06th 2002
20
Another sad thing
Mar 06th 2002
21
most detrimental to ANY child
Mar 06th 2002
26
RE: Love Their Sons, Raise their Daughters
Mar 06th 2002
30
RE: Love Their Sons, Raise their Daughters
Mar 06th 2002
31
RE: Love Their Sons, Raise their Daughters
Mar 06th 2002
32
      umm
Mar 06th 2002
42
      RE: Love Their Sons, Raise their Daughters
Mar 06th 2002
47
RE: Love Their Sons, Raise their Daughters
Mar 06th 2002
34
RE: Love Their Sons, Raise their Daughters
Mar 06th 2002
36
Its a ILL situation
Mar 06th 2002
40
starts when they're young
Mar 06th 2002
37
Read posts 3 & 4
Mar 06th 2002
39
      sons aren't raised
Mar 06th 2002
43
Mother's raising Sons
Mar 06th 2002
38
I agree totally
Mar 06th 2002
44
Qualms with the statement
Mar 06th 2002
49
RE: Mother's raising Sons
Keyser
Mar 08th 2002
79
Bullshit
Mar 08th 2002
82
that is the fuckin TRUTH
Mar 08th 2002
81
Manhood classes
Mar 06th 2002
50
Good suggestion
Mar 07th 2002
51
RE: Manhood classes
Mar 07th 2002
56
RE: AFRICAN'S
Mar 07th 2002
52
RE...
Mar 07th 2002
57
RE: Love Their Sons, Raise their Daughters
Keyser
Mar 08th 2002
77
IN YOUR FAMILY
Mar 08th 2002
88

ellehcor
Charter member
222 posts
Tue Mar-05-02 08:06 PM

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1. "not to post jack"
In response to Reply # 0


          

i don't think this mentality is limited to the black community in america. as long as any society is structured as a patriarchy, sons will be raised to some extent as family, while daughters will be raised to be married off to another family. in this context, most would be willing to allow for more excuses for the boys. i realize this is somewhat of an overgeneralization, and someone will come up with a contrasting example. however, this is my perception when looking at the world at large--and also i need some more time to think about this before posting further.

the title of the post reminds me of this documentary i saw on chinese women's lives after the revolution. it was titled "a small happiness," because as the narrator points out, when a boy is born, it is a big happiness...when a girl is born, it is a small happiness. with all issues with the state of women's rights in china aside, how often is this true in other societies, even here in the US?


"leadership...is only incidental to the movement." -philip vera cruz

signed,

ellehcor
girl lurker extraordinaire

  

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M2
Charter member
10072 posts
Tue Mar-05-02 10:35 PM

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3. "However...."
In response to Reply # 1


          

.....in the case of strong Patriarchal societies/families, more resources are spent on the son in order to ensure that he has the things he needs in order to become a man, make the family proud, get a good job, etc.

In fact, a great deal of time is spend on preparing the son for life. I've have seen it/see it, in Asian, Mediterranean and other families that are heavily patriarchal.

SO.......it's not quite the same thing.




Peace,




M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Keyser

Fri Mar-08-02 09:11 AM

  
78. "RE: However...."
In response to Reply # 3


          

Do you understand that the men will carry on the bloodline of a family and not the woman. So in those societies I can agree with your train of thought. But here it's not like that. We could care less about bloodlines and things of the sort.

  

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Vette
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9685 posts
Fri Mar-08-02 01:23 PM

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89. "asian patriarchy..."
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

being born and raised in an Asian (Filipino) family and having a good handful of Asian friends, I think that there are more similarities in the patriarchy prevalent in Asian families and Black families than there are differences.

I've seen this in my own extended family and friends' families - men do not get as much blame for their screw ups as do women. And all of this is of course dependent upon different Asian cultures, etc. In what I've seen in my own culture - the boys tend to be more spoiled, revered and the girls often catch the flack despite growing up to be the matriarchs of their families. This will never happen in my parents household, because my mom is not your typical Filipino woman - more liberal, independent, and open-minded than most Filipino moms I know. But I've seen it in my cousins, friends, students I work with, etc.

One example I've seen where boys are treated differently than girls is teen pregnancy - the girl gets most, if not all, of the blame, whereas or boyfriend/sex partner is hardly scrutinized. I've seen this in all cultures, not just my own. Or case in point - single parenthood, custody usually falls upon the shoulders of women.

so if you were to ask me if there is a problem in Black communities with the gender roles, patriarchy, etc. I will agree with you, but I will also say that these issues are evident in other communities and are growing problem that needs to be addressed.
___________________________
got soy milk?
http://www.triple5funkypinay.net
"education is our passport to the future; for tomorrow belongs to those who prepare for it today." -- Malcolm X


__________________________________________

<--- Still reppin' the Bay
Life. Love. Music:
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Solarus
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3604 posts
Wed Mar-06-02 02:38 AM

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4. "Not the same thing"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

Akwaaba

In many patriarchal societies, time is spent raising the son in order to ensure the sanctity of the society. Here sons AREN'T raised.

SE wo werE fi na wosankofa a yenkyi.

Akoneaba ne agoro
solarICE

"So many of those who consider themselves Afrikan centered spend so much time on themselves that they forget that the primary role of the adult in our tradition was to raise the children to improve the society for their children."- Mwalimu Baruti

***Daily Affirmation***

i must be a warrior. i must be an Afrikan father. i must be self-full. i must challenge myself daily to grow, to love my people in and through action. To reflect that love at all times. To be optimistic. To know that victory is in front of US.

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

  

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LexM
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28342 posts
Wed Mar-06-02 07:55 AM

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22. "agreeing w/ M2 and Solarus"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          


~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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RexLongfellow
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18296 posts
Tue Mar-05-02 08:58 PM

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2. "Opinion"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

To some extent I do agree, however
Do you think it's easier for a mother to raise a daughter or a son? A mother can teach a girl how to become a woman, but has to improvise on how to teach a son how to become a man.
But I do agree with you. A large amount of the black women I grew up with were pretty much protected, while the black men had to learn by trial and error. My mom told me that boys are easier to raise than girls (I don't know if that's true or not), and me and my brother were a cakewalk compared to my sisters. Many boys aren't given that many restrictions and are pretty much are given carte blanche to make mistakes, while girls aren't allowed to experience making their own mistakes.
While boys make mistakes on their own, it's rare that they can have someone that's around to correct their mistakes. A lot of black boys, young men these days are on some BabyBoy ish.
A lot of girls are protected from making mistakes, which however can also cause a backlash. A lot of black girls I knew that were what I call "lockdown" went out of control senior year, and freshman year in college.
The way I see things is that black young men and black young women are both loved and raised, but parents usually "let go" of the boy a lot quicker, thus letting him experience life on his own a little. A lot of girls are still on lockdown even after they go out in the world, as parents try to protect girls from making mistakes.
Just my opinion, feel free to disagree

Peace
Rex

Abdul Jabbar, Muggsy Malone you
I don't know what that means but you know what I meant when I told you (c) Sean Price

  

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lingo
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61467 posts
Wed Mar-06-02 05:52 AM

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8. "RE: Opinion"
In response to Reply # 2


          

the notion that boys are easier to raise than boys is simply because sexually parents aren't as worried about their son getting someone pregnant, as they are with their daughter getting pregnant.

society promotes male sexual conquest...we give our sons condoms and then tell daughters what they better not do or else.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
whateva man!!

  

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Solarus
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3604 posts
Wed Mar-06-02 02:39 AM

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5. "It shouldn't be flipped"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Akwaaba

It needs to be balanced. And yes that is true with many African Americans today.


SE wo werE fi na wosankofa a yenkyi.

Akoneaba ne agoro
solarICE

"So many of those who consider themselves Afrikan centered spend so much time on themselves that they forget that the primary role of the adult in our tradition was to raise the children to improve the society for their children."- Mwalimu Baruti

***Daily Affirmation***

i must be a warrior. i must be an Afrikan father. i must be self-full. i must challenge myself daily to grow, to love my people in and through action. To reflect that love at all times. To be optimistic. To know that victory is in front of US.

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

  

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heru2002
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31 posts
Wed Mar-06-02 04:20 AM

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6. "RE: Love Their Sons, Raise their Daughters"
In response to Reply # 0


          

co-sign. I have cousins who prove that statement.
It should be balanced just like Solarus said. I will raise my sons just like my pops raised me. Good post.

The Stakes is High.

  

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Nettrice
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61747 posts
Wed Mar-06-02 05:44 AM

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7. "There are always exceptions"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I often look at the exceptions to get a sense of what happens on a even deeper level when people raise sons and daughters. The patriachal society we live in promotes the man as provider but that kind of ideal fell apart years ago with the increase of divorce and single parenthood (i.e. female).

>Black People Love their sons and
>raise their daughters.

I've heard women of color tell me they raise their daughters to care for them when they get old. Sons are expected to leave the household and start new families so they are conditioned to explore life outside, including being encouraged to learn from mistakes. Daughters are expected to become mothers and care givers, not just of their children but others in the family, as well. They are taught to make decisions for the whole, or for the benefit of their loved ones as opposed to/for themselves. BTW- I rebelled against that at an early age.

My mother was a single parent but she was a good provider. She also made sure my father had a hand in raising us. However, their parenting approaches and views on raising daughters were very different. My father's expectation was that we'd be pregnant by age 16 (like his mother, grandmother) or we'd be lucky to make it to high school graduation before getting knocked up. My mother graduated from college before she had us (he was a high school drop out) and she was the primary provider after my parents divorced early. Ironically, while my mother raised us my father raised two more girls on his own ten years later (different mother). My sister an I have master's degrees, no children and my sister quit her lucrative job as a chemical engineer to move to Paris and become a writer. The younger sisters raised by my father both dropped out of high school and had babies before they were 18.

I rebelled for years, esp. against the expectation that my role as a woman was to solely be a mother and caregiver. My mother raised me to explore the world and make my own mistakes. My father thought this was wrong and was so conflicted that he quit communicating altogether when we went off to start our own lives as adults. He refused to support us through college and grad school and he was quick to encourage me to come home and help raise my younger sisters. Rather than be proud of his daughters he choose to alienate us. We excelled because of our mother's love and and defiance of our father.

One of the things I've noticed and discussed with other Black women about Black men is how they handle adversity. Many Black men do not handle adversity effectively. They avoid, run, etc. Women are taught to stay, struggle through and solve problems. There are always exceptions but in general women are expected to deal with problems and men sometimes don't. Even with the superwoman mentality many sisters have both sexes often see themselves as victims of society-at-large. As a result, Black women die of heart attacks (and other diseases) sooner and more often. They get wore down but keep going despite it all. They are expected to take on the world but not be in control of it.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"To be as good as someone else is no high ideal...I am myself." - Paul Robeson

"It's quite an experience to live in fear isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave." - Roy in "Blade Runner"

"Everyone seems to have a clear idea of how other people should lead their lives, but none about his or her own."
--Paulo Coelho, "The Alchemist"

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix" (and a Buddhist philosophy)

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

  

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loryn
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14996 posts
Wed Mar-06-02 06:00 AM

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9. "i agree..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

small example...

Both my younger brother and I go to private schools.


It's my brother's first year.

he brings home a couple C's and a D.

he is told he can't go out that weekend, even though he did end up kickin with the homies.

Okay...when I was in ninth grade, i brought home a C.


Massive hysteria.

WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN DOING UP THERE/YOU'RE NOT FOCUSED/WE'RE WASTING OUR MONEY/YOU'RE GROUNDED FOR A MONTH, ETC.

i did see a repeat of this the next year when I just couldn't get my math grades up.

how come nothing happens to my brother?

-loryn
aim: Tiye1984

i pretend cuz i'm afraid to be--afraid to be--sometimes(c) Bilal

Okayoungins-we stay on point like stacy adams.


ask away http://www.formspring.me/elledub

http://www.loryncwilson.com

tweet me up: @elledub_1920

  

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KOONTZILLA
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652 posts
Fri Mar-08-02 12:02 PM

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83. "RE: i agree..."
In response to Reply # 9


          

>
>
>how come nothing happens to my
>brother?
>
CAUSE TO ME, IT SEEMS LIKE SOCIETY NOWADAYS TELL YOU TO BE MORE LENIENT TOWARDS YOUR CHILDRE, WHICH IS GONNA F--K UP EVERYTHING, ESPECIALLY IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY..... I'M FEELIN THIS WHOLE POST, BECAUSE ITS TRUE, FROM THE EXAMPLES OF THE CHILDS FATHER AND HIS FAMILY TO WOMAN JUST NOT GETTIN THE FREEDOM MEN HAVE... AND IN SOME INSTANCES THE WOMANS FAMILY WILL TAKE THE MANS SIDE... WE FAUCKED UP YALL, FORREAL.... WE NEED HELP


"IF ONE OF US AIN'T FREE, THEN WE ALL TO BLAME."-TALIB KWALI

"Niggas mad cause Ibrags about the cash I got, but I'm used to not havin alot, I'm from the gutter and ohh..."-Jay-Z

"Expensive shoes worn, Loui Viton see-through gone, CoChes, my face is like a coupon..."Jay-Z

  

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HashimAbdulKhaliq
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751 posts
Wed Mar-06-02 06:13 AM

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10. "Because of Slavery"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


The black Family unit is all messed up. I agree with your anology but I think that the problem goes back to the missing Male figure. A woman cant teach a boy how to be a man. The examples you showed are usually pointing the that fact. A Father who has been taught by his Father usually would be hard on his son. A son knows that in mommas eyes he can do no wrong and even if he does do wrong she'll be there to bail him out and assit him no matter what. A Father is usually more hard core with his son. When the Father finds out that his son has done something the son knows his dad is gonna give it to him.

Example:

The son gets a girl pregnant and then skates outta town.
A Father should be the one who scolds the hell out of his son for NOT taking care of his responsiblities. A Father can tell his son what if I did the same thing to you? But in the black family the Father's presence is either weak or doesnt exist. The boys momma gonna shield her son as much as possible.

To me thats the problem..the whole Family unit is shot to hell amongst us. The Fathers are gone or weak only to leave to women to take care of everything. This is the same agenda Slave owners had in Slavery: Take the male slaves manhood, beat him if he rebels, leave the woman to fend for herself with the kids and all...its just a viscous cycle. For generations the black family has been destroyed. We dont even know about the wonders of growing up in a unbroken home with both parents there. So the cycle continues and things turn out the opposite way of what they should be. Thats why we (our generation) should strive to break the cycle unfortunately many of us have already linked to the chain of pain at a young age by having children while were too young and not even finished with high school or junior high.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenship
into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword.

It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind.
And w

  

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Expertise
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37848 posts
Wed Mar-06-02 06:28 AM

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13. "that's a lie."
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

Slavery didn't screw up the black family.

Read something other than Cress-Welsing.

_________________________
http://expertise.blogdrive.com
http://twitter.com/KMBReferee
http://www.ask.fm/KMBReferee

  

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HashimAbdulKhaliq
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751 posts
Wed Mar-06-02 06:58 AM

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16. "RE: that's a lie."
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

Aiight

What did?

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenship
into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword.

It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind.
And w

  

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Expertise
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37848 posts
Wed Mar-06-02 07:24 AM

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19. "The 60's."
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

The liberal and feminist movements...and all that jazz.

Most black children were born unto two parent families...until then.

_________________________
http://expertise.blogdrive.com
http://twitter.com/KMBReferee
http://www.ask.fm/KMBReferee

  

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Cre8
Charter member
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Wed Mar-06-02 08:06 AM

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25. "Does this mean"
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

that women did not want to be married and raise families?
Does it mean that women wanted to raise families on their own?

and just how much do you know about the femenist movement of the 60's and just how much do you know of how black women felt about the movement?


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Expertise
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28. "Doesn't matter"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

what their intentions were....what matters are the results of their actions.

Since the movements of the 60's there has been a continuous breakdown of family values. That wasn't there before then.

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Cre8
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45. "Does matter"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

the whole 60's femenist movement was white based and bathed in lesbianism. Besides blacks were too busy fighting jimcrow to get better paying jobs. 60's Femenist were fighting to gt better pay.
What f*king sense would it make for me to help you fight to get equal pay when I can't even get a job based on the color of my skin?

Just because you don't know doesn't mean it don't matter.

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M2
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46. "Lesbianism?"
In response to Reply # 45


          


Since when is being a Lesbian an "ism" and what does a woman have to be a Lesbian to want equal rights?




peace,





M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

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Cre8
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54. "RE: Lesbianism?"
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

>
>Since when is being a Lesbian
>an "ism" and what does
>a woman have to be
>a Lesbian to want equal
>rights?
>>
>peace,
>M2

'ism' was my add on.
And no you don't have to be a lesbian to be a femenist just as you don't have to be black to fight for civil rights, however the majority and stronghold of the 60's femenist movement were white lesbians.


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Expertise
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59. "strong statement."
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

show your proof.

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Cre8
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68. "RE: strong statement."
In response to Reply # 59


  

          

Throughout my search for black women that felt connected with the 60's feminist movement, I found none.

Many black feminist felt as if the feminist movement was not supportive or representive of them.

(i.e) Taking from a college web site. I'll find the site later)
hooks argues that liberal feminists, who have tended to be white, middle-class, college educated women have excluded women unlike themselves from participation in feminist movement.
hooks particularly faults liberal feminists for insisting on a "common oppression" among women, and she argues that this has explicitly excluded black women from participating in feminist movement. Hooks believes that if black and other non-white women and poor women were to develop a feminist political movement, that movement would "look" quite different from the one developed by white, middle-class women.

and

Revolution enables women's struggle for gender equality
The urge to unify has produced fragmentation as black feminists and feminists from the third world have criticised universalistic theories that could not account for culturally specific experiences of gender.
Black feminists argued that much of gender theory was ethnocentric in that it failed to take account of the importance of racism in the experience of black women. If the exploitation of gender was perpetuated by both black and white men, the oppression of racism was similarly inflicted by both white men and women.
There were also differences in strategies and emphasis. Women in the western world fought for access to contraceptives while many poor women in the third world were faced with western funded population control programmes that sought to force birth control methods on them.

and heres a site that pretty much repeats the same message of the feminist movements unwant for black women.
http://www.pregnantpause.org/racism/whatcha.htm

and if feminist movements aren't white dominated and not representive of other ethnicities then why do blacks, latinos and asians feel the need to create their own groups.


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M2
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63. "RE: Lesbianism?"
In response to Reply # 54


          


>'ism' was my add on.
>And no you don't have to
>be a lesbian to be
>a femenist just as you
>don't have to be black
>to fight for civil rights,
>however the majority and stronghold
>of the 60's femenist movement
>were white lesbians.

#1. Show Proof, Qualified proof since a lot of people would've labled a feminist as a lesbian on principle, just as a lot of people will assume a female athlete or a woman unmarried by age 35 "must be a lesbian".

#2. Show relevance, assuming the above is true, wouldn't that indicate that Lesbians were less afraid of a "social cut" when persuing equal rights for women?



Peace,





M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Expertise
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53. "RE: Does matter"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

Do you actually think that the fates of blacks and white in this country aren't intertwined?

What happens to one....sooner or later happens to the other.

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Cre8
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55. "Intertwined???"
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

yeah only when the shit hits the fan is something done.


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Expertise
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58. "Once again..."
In response to Reply # 55


  

          

That's besides the point.

The point is that things will still have to be done, else white people will share the same problems black people have today.

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M2
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64. "Poor/ Low Income White People...."
In response to Reply # 58


          

.....share a lot of the same problems that Black people do, maybe not in quite the same magnitude, but they still have said problem.

Only difference is, who spends any time an energy trying to help Poor White people, in a society were everyone pretends that Whites are all upper middle class....living the so called "Rich White Life"?




Peace,





M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Expertise
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65. "perception is reality..."
In response to Reply # 64


  

          

in the minds of some people. As well as politics.

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Cre8
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66. "Just proves my point"
In response to Reply # 58


  

          

>That's besides the point.
>
>The point is that things will
>still have to be done,
>else white people will share
>the same problems black people
>have today.


The 'O lets do something NOW before it gets to US' line.
The only time action is taking by whites is when it effects them or if the issue closes in on them, and still whites only do enough to protect themselves.

If this is not so then explain the Tuskeegee Experiment and why numerous amounts of black men died before whites did anything about it? And still they did not act until a black nurse put light on the issue.

Why is it that today millions of Africans are dying of AIDS yet white American owned pharmacutical(sp) companies are refusing to allow affordable treatment? Evidently these white folks don't feel that they share the same problems as black people have today.
Not to mention the rate of AIDS(and every other disease) in the black communities is steady going higher as the white communities lowers. Why not share the secret of that success and please don't give me that safe sex bullshit.


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M2
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67. "RE: Just proves my point"
In response to Reply # 66


          

>Why is it that today millions
>of Africans are dying of
>AIDS yet white American owned
>pharmacutical(sp) companies are refusing to
>allow affordable treatment? Evidently these
>white folks don't feel that
>they share the same problems
>as black people have today.

It's not a race problem, it's a financial one. You're asking these companies to lose millions by providing *affordable* treatment.

It's not a Black/White issue, it's a GREEN one.

I'm not defending them, but that's just the truth of the situation. These drugs cost billions to develop and they recoup those costs via sales, if they give the shit away they lose money.

That's why we have millions of white people in the US who can't get the drugs THEY need because they can't afford them.


>Not to mention the rate of
>AIDS(and every other disease) in
>the black communities is steady
>going higher as the white
>communities lowers. Why not share
>the secret of that success
>and please don't give me
>that safe sex bullshit.

What secret? You think White people get together and hand out Aids Vaccinations and don't tell Black people?

Wake up, Black communities have higher out of wedlock pregnancy rates, so they are obviously not using birth control......which translates (generally) to not having safe sex.

I grew up in White Suburban communities where you'd have maybe ONE kid at the local high school with a baby, how many Black communities can say that?

PLUS, there seems to be a general trend in White people being more likely to engage in Oral sex, which supposedly doesn't transmitt the disease/isn't as likely to...because stomach acid kills the virus before it can be transmitted....couldn't that be a factor?

How about better health and sex education?

How about the fact that disease transmission occurs exponentially, so all it takes is one factor to cause it transmitt faster in one group then another and BOOM one group has a much higher rate.



Peace,






M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Cre8
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Thu Mar-07-02 02:36 PM

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69. "RE: Just proves my point"
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

>>Why is it that today millions
>>of Africans are dying of
>>AIDS yet white American owned
>>pharmacutical(sp) companies are refusing to
>>allow affordable treatment? Evidently these
>>white folks don't feel that
>>they share the same problems
>>as black people have today.
>
>It's not a race problem, it's
>a financial one. You're asking
>these companies to lose millions
>by providing *affordable* treatment.
>
>It's not a Black/White issue, it's
>a GREEN one.
>
>I'm not defending them, but that's
>just the truth of the
>situation. These drugs cost billions
>to develop and they recoup
>those costs via sales, if
>they give the shit away
>they lose money.
>
>That's why we have millions of
>white people in the US
>who can't get the drugs
>THEY need because they can't
>afford them.
>
>
>>Not to mention the rate of
>>AIDS(and every other disease) in
>>the black communities is steady
>>going higher as the white
>>communities lowers. Why not share
>>the secret of that success
>>and please don't give me
>>that safe sex bullshit.
>
>What secret? You think White people
>get together and hand out
>Aids Vaccinations and don't tell
>Black people?
>
>Wake up, Black communities have higher
>out of wedlock pregnancy rates,
>so they are obviously not
>using birth control......which translates (generally)
>to not having safe sex.
>
>
>I grew up in White Suburban
>communities where you'd have maybe
>ONE kid at the local
>high school with a baby,
>how many Black communities can
>say that?
>
>PLUS, there seems to be a
>general trend in White people
>being more likely to engage
>in Oral sex, which supposedly
>doesn't transmitt the disease/isn't as
>likely to...because stomach acid kills
>the virus before it can
>be transmitted....couldn't that be a
>factor?

or Abortion, just you didn't see it don't mean it didn't exist.

>
>How about better health and sex
>education?

Your right, unfortunately I have yet to see a PlanParenthood in a black community. And considering 'inner city' schools are at the bottom of the barrel (inChicago)I guess "inner city" kids aren't getting the needed education.
>
>How about the fact that disease
>transmission occurs exponentially, so all
>it takes is one factor
>to cause it transmitt faster
>in one group then another
>and BOOM one group has
>a much higher rate.
>
Okay so your saying the black community are full of hoes? In that case what is to come of the white community considering interacial dating, and seeing that AIDS was first found to be heavy in the white gay male circle, how is it that in less than 10 years the shit suddenly flipped?
>
>
>Peace,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>M2



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M2
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Thu Mar-07-02 03:48 PM

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71. "RE: Just proves my point"
In response to Reply # 69


          

>>I grew up in White Suburban
>>communities where you'd have maybe
>>ONE kid at the local
>>high school with a baby,
>>how many Black communities can
>>say that?
>>
>>PLUS, there seems to be a
>>general trend in White people
>>being more likely to engage
>>in Oral sex, which supposedly
>>doesn't transmitt the disease/isn't as
>>likely to...because stomach acid kills
>>the virus before it can
>>be transmitted....couldn't that be a
>>factor?
>
>or Abortion, just you didn't see
>it don't mean it didn't
>exist.

Change your thinking, one doesn't have to be like the other. Just because white communities aren't having as many teenage pregnancies doesn't mean they're hiding them. You're basically assuming that these white communities HAVE to be like the Black ones.

Quick thoughts:

I'm 26 and don't have any children, something that a lot of my friends from High School and college don't find strange. However, a lot of my lower income Black friends and family, and lower income White friends DO find it odd, especially since I've more or less been involved with someone over the last 8 years or so.

It's called expectations, one group expects that they'll eventually have kids or that "it's life", while the other puts a VERY high priority on making sure they don't have kids out of wedlock.

I went to high school with quite a few girls who were on the pill, when it came to sex, getting pregnant was the #1 reason offered for not doing it, (Disease was second) so even she was on the pill, condoms were often still used. I have a friend who has been sexually active since he was 15 (Also 26) never done it "bareback" even though the only two girls he slept with was on the pill. His experience is not uncommon, people are afraid of pregnancy before they think they're ready.

Planned Parenthood: It's a Standard Operating Procedure amongst a lot of the people I grew up around and went to college with. If a girl becomes very sexually active with a boyfriend or is just promiscuos, she goes to PP to get on the pill, get a Diaphram, get a depo shot, even in high school (My high school discretely provided the information).

It's a different environment when it comes to safe sex and pregnancy.....of course this is more true with middle class white communities then Blue Collar/Low Income ones.

As for abortions....in a small community, it's hard to keep things secret and a lot of girls can't get them as teens, and like I said, in that different environment, it's all that neccessary.


>>
>>How about better health and sex
>>education?
>
>Your right, unfortunately I have yet
>to see a PlanParenthood in
>a black community. And considering
>'inner city' schools are at
>the bottom of the barrel
>(inChicago)I guess "inner city" kids
>aren't getting the needed education.

I'm in 100% agreement with you. When I was in high school my girlfriend and I just went down there after school and she was able to get the Birth Control pill, no muss no fuss.

How many Inner city kids have that option?

How many of them fear pregnancy like middle class kids do?

I've never heard of inner city kids hiding their pregnancies, or killing their babies because they're afraid of their parents finding out.


>>
>>How about the fact that disease
>>transmission occurs exponentially, so all
>>it takes is one factor
>>to cause it transmitt faster
>>in one group then another
>>and BOOM one group has
>>a much higher rate.
>>
>Okay so your saying the black
>community are full of hoes?
>In that case what is
>to come of the white
>community considering interacial dating, and
>seeing that AIDS was first
>found to be heavy in
>the white gay male circle,
>how is it that in
>less than 10 years the
>shit suddenly flipped?

Who said anything about promiscuity? Even with a lower level of sexually activity then Whites, ONE factor that is going to promote aids transmission in the Black community can cause much higher rates.

Interracial dating is still a small % of all relationships, and when it happens it occurs between people of similar socio-economic backgrounds. So a Black Youth (Like me) who grows up in a White Suburban community, is going to benefit from the education and resources available as well as being influenced by that community's attitudes on sex and pregnancy.

PLUS, how many Blacks from poor Black communities (The ones I assume you're referring to) date White Women? How many of those White Women sleep with these guys and don't engage in safe sex?

The White Gay Male community was the primary focus of a lot of the education towards preventing the spread of aids and was the community with the greatest amount of vigilance aimed towards preventing its spread. On top of that, other communities who weren't educated about its spread, were operating under the assumption that it was a "Gay Disease".


Nothing suddenly flipped, it was a gradual change, people just noticed because they thought it was a "Gay Thing" AIDS has been rising amongst Heterosexual communities for some time.


Peace,







M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Cre8
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Thu Mar-07-02 04:34 PM

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72. "RE: Just proves my point"
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

>>>I grew up in White Suburban
>>>communities where you'd have maybe
>>>ONE kid at the local
>>>high school with a baby,
>>>how many Black communities can
>>>say that?
>>>
>>>PLUS, there seems to be a
>>>general trend in White people
>>>being more likely to engage
>>>in Oral sex, which supposedly
>>>doesn't transmitt the disease/isn't as
>>>likely to...because stomach acid kills
>>>the virus before it can
>>>be transmitted....couldn't that be a
>>>factor?
>>
>>or Abortion, just you didn't see
>>it don't mean it didn't
>>exist.
>
>Change your thinking, one doesn't have
>to be like the other.

Never said we had to be like each other, however i find it strange that only blacks and browns are at high ass rates for the disease despite we only make up 24% of the population put together, yet 60% of the population is damn near drama free. This is not to say that that 60% has a miracle drug however they do have the POWER to lower the rates. But considering all the babies that blacks and brown produce i guess they need some form of population control. Which i see to be the same thing happening in Africa. especially since white farmers are being made to flee from some countries.

>Just because white communities aren't
>having as many teenage pregnancies
>doesn't mean they're hiding them.
>You're basically assuming that these
>white communities HAVE to be
>like the Black ones.
>
No they don't have to be like black ones, hell even if we had the equal economic levels and so on we still wouldn't be alike.
However abortion has always been more exceptable amongst whites than blacks. Many black women think of an abortion as taboo and will encourage their daughters to have a child rather than abort. The same goes for latinos.

>Quick thoughts:
>
>I'm 26 and don't have any
>children, something that a lot
>of my friends from High
>School and college don't find
>strange. However, a lot of
>my lower income Black friends
>and family, and lower income
>White friends DO find it
>odd, especially since I've more
>or less been involved with
>someone over the last 8
>years or so.
>
just as my 26 year old sister and my 29 year old female cousin.

>It's called expectations, one group expects
>that they'll eventually have kids
>or that "it's life", while
>the other puts a VERY
>high priority on making sure
>they don't have kids out
>of wedlock.
>
>I went to high school with
>quite a few girls who
>were on the pill, when
>it came to sex, getting
>pregnant was the #1 reason
>offered for not doing it,
>(Disease was second) so even
>she was on the pill,
>condoms were often still used.
>I have a friend who
>has been sexually active since
>he was 15 (Also 26)
>never done it "bareback" even
>though the only two girls
>he slept with was on
>the pill. His experience is
>not uncommon, people are afraid
>of pregnancy before they think
>they're ready.

I get some of what your saying but what is your point for why blacks are at high rates for AIDS compared to whites? Cause I know married black couples without kids and singles without kids or disease, and as far as my friends go I'm the only one with a child, so are you saying that the majority of blacks don't hold not having kids until marriage as a high priority?
>
>Planned Parenthood: It's a Standard Operating
>Procedure amongst a lot of
>the people I grew up
>around and went to college
>with. If a girl becomes
>very sexually active with a
>boyfriend or is just promiscuos,
>she goes to PP to
>get on the pill, get
>a Diaphram, get a depo
>shot, even in high school
>(My high school discretely provided
>the information).

But you grew up in the burbs, how many PP's are in the city where a prodominate number of blacks live? In my town 0.
>
>It's a different environment when it
>comes to safe sex and
>pregnancy.....of course this is more
>true with middle class white
>communities then Blue Collar/Low Income
>ones.
>
But if you gave both the SAME(EQUAL) options and facilities then things might not be so different.

>As for abortions....in a small community,
>it's hard to keep things
>secret and a lot of
>girls can't get them as
>teens, and like I said,
>in that different environment, it's
>all that neccessary.
>
>
>>>
>>>How about better health and sex
>>>education?
>>
>>Your right, unfortunately I have yet
>>to see a PlanParenthood in
>>a black community. And considering
>>'inner city' schools are at
>>the bottom of the barrel
>>(inChicago)I guess "inner city" kids
>>aren't getting the needed education.
>
>I'm in 100% agreement with you.
>When I was in high
>school my girlfriend and I
>just went down there after
>school and she was able
>to get the Birth Control
>pill, no muss no fuss.
>
>
>How many Inner city kids have
>that option?
>
>How many of them fear pregnancy
>like middle class kids do?
>
MANY, no one wants to conitue to live in poverty and everyone wants something better for their kids than what they had.
>
>I've never heard of inner city
>kids hiding their pregnancies, or
>killing their babies because they're
>afraid of their parents finding
>out.
>
well you grew up in the burbs, so how could you know.
>
>>>
>>>How about the fact that disease
>>>transmission occurs exponentially, so all
>>>it takes is one factor
>>>to cause it transmitt faster
>>>in one group then another
>>>and BOOM one group has
>>>a much higher rate.
>>>
>>Okay so your saying the black
>>community are full of hoes?
>>In that case what is
>>to come of the white
>>community considering interacial dating, and
>>seeing that AIDS was first
>>found to be heavy in
>>the white gay male circle,
>>how is it that in
>>less than 10 years the
>>shit suddenly flipped?
>
I'LL GET BACK 2U.

>Who said anything about promiscuity? Even
>with a lower level of
>sexually activity then Whites, ONE
>factor that is going to
>promote aids transmission in the
>Black community can cause much
>higher rates.
>
>Interracial dating is still a small
>% of all relationships, and
>when it happens it occurs
>between people of similar socio-economic
>backgrounds. So a Black Youth
>(Like me) who grows up
>in a White Suburban community,
>is going to benefit from
>the education and resources available
>as well as being influenced
>by that community's attitudes on
>sex and pregnancy.
>
>PLUS, how many Blacks from poor
>Black communities (The ones I
>assume you're referring to) date
>White Women? How many of
>those White Women sleep with
>these guys and don't engage
>in safe sex?
>
>The White Gay Male community was
>the primary focus of a
>lot of the education towards
>preventing the spread of aids
>and was the community with
>the greatest amount of vigilance
>aimed towards preventing its spread.
>On top of that, other
>communities who weren't educated about
>its spread, were operating under
>the assumption that it was
>a "Gay Disease".
>
>
>Nothing suddenly flipped, it was a
>gradual change, people just noticed
>because they thought it was
>a "Gay Thing" AIDS has
>been rising amongst Heterosexual communities
>for some time.
>
>
>Peace,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>M2



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M2
Charter member
10072 posts
Thu Mar-07-02 05:05 PM

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74. "RE: Just proves my point"
In response to Reply # 72


          

>Never said we had to be
>like each other, however i
>find it strange that only
>blacks and browns are at
>high ass rates for the
>disease despite we only make
>up 24% of the population
>put together, yet 60% of
>the population is damn near
>drama free. This is not
>to say that that 60%
>has a miracle drug however
>they do have the POWER
>to lower the rates. But
>considering all the babies that
>blacks and brown produce i
>guess they need some form
>of population control. Which i
>see to be the same
>thing happening in Africa. especially
>since white farmers are being
>made to flee from some
>countries.

It's strange, just look around you, there are plenty of reasons and it's not that Whites all got together and are hiding somethign from brown people.


>>Just because white communities aren't
>>having as many teenage pregnancies
>>doesn't mean they're hiding them.
>>You're basically assuming that these
>>white communities HAVE to be
>>like the Black ones.
>>
>No they don't have to be
>like black ones, hell even
>if we had the equal
>economic levels and so on
>we still wouldn't be alike.

But if we had the same access to information, health care and similar attitudes towards sex, things would be a lot closer.

>However abortion has always been more
>exceptable amongst whites than blacks.
>Many black women think of
>an abortion as taboo and
>will encourage their daughters to
>have a child rather than
>abort. The same goes for
>latinos.

How many Blacks do you know of that have blown up abortion clinics?

Regardless, I think that few of them are getting to the point where they need an abortion (Since the pregnancy rates are so much lower in the first place) and many of them wouldn't abort either, with the heavy presence of Right Wing conservatives infesting the burbs, I don't see it happening very often.

IMHO, they are more likely to simply send the child "to aunt patties house" and have her give up the child for adoption.

>I get some of what your
>saying but what is your
>point for why blacks are
>at high rates for AIDS
>compared to whites? Cause I
>know married black couples without
>kids and singles without kids
>or disease, and as far
>as my friends go I'm
>the only one with a
>child, so are you saying
>that the majority of blacks
>don't hold not having kids
>until marriage as a high
>priority?

I'm saying we don't place the same stigma on having illegitamate kids as Whites do. When you don't have the same Stigma you don't worry about it as much.

Do you think Black families are as ashamed as White ones to tell people that their 16 year old daughter is pregnant, do you think that girl experiences as much of a "social cut" from those around her?

Growing up, White girl around me got pregnant, it was pretty much social death. Guy skipped town, no one would really talk to her, when she came back to school, they refused to let her be on the Cheerleading Squad, she was made fun of, etc, etc...she had to transfer to a new school and her family moved away. In the new town, the passed the girl off as the girl's younger sister.

Know any Black families that would happen too?

In fact, if a girl got pregnant around me, it was a given she was moving away/going to a different school, it was too much to deal with.



>>
>>Planned Parenthood: It's a Standard Operating
>>Procedure amongst a lot of
>>the people I grew up
>>around and went to college
>>with. If a girl becomes
>>very sexually active with a
>>boyfriend or is just promiscuos,
>>she goes to PP to
>>get on the pill, get
>>a Diaphram, get a depo
>>shot, even in high school
>>(My high school discretely provided
>>the information).
>
>But you grew up in the
>burbs, how many PP's are
>in the city where a
>prodominate number of blacks live?
>In my town 0.

Exactly...less birth control availability is going to cause more pregnancies and transmission of disease.


>>
>>It's a different environment when it
>>comes to safe sex and
>>pregnancy.....of course this is more
>>true with middle class white
>>communities then Blue Collar/Low Income
>>ones.
>>
>But if you gave both the
>SAME(EQUAL) options and facilities then
>things might not be so
>different.

Agreed.

>>As for abortions....in a small community,
>>it's hard to keep things
>>secret and a lot of
>>girls can't get them as
>>teens, and like I said,
>>in that different environment, it's
>>all that neccessary.
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>>How about better health and sex
>>>>education?
>>>
>>>Your right, unfortunately I have yet
>>>to see a PlanParenthood in
>>>a black community. And considering
>>>'inner city' schools are at
>>>the bottom of the barrel
>>>(inChicago)I guess "inner city" kids
>>>aren't getting the needed education.
>>
>>I'm in 100% agreement with you.
>>When I was in high
>>school my girlfriend and I
>>just went down there after
>>school and she was able
>>to get the Birth Control
>>pill, no muss no fuss.
>>
>>
>>How many Inner city kids have
>>that option?
>>
>>How many of them fear pregnancy
>>like middle class kids do?
>>
>MANY, no one wants to conitue
>to live in poverty and
>everyone wants something better for
>their kids than what they
>had.

But look at their actions.

70% of White kids aren't born out of wedlock.


>>
>>I've never heard of inner city
>>kids hiding their pregnancies, or
>>killing their babies because they're
>>afraid of their parents finding
>>out.
>>
>well you grew up in the
>burbs, so how could you
>know.

Touche'

But I doubt the fear/stigma is as high.

If I started dating a woman with a child who had the child when she was in her teens, I doubt my suburbanite friends would be very accepting of her.

Most of my family, some of my Black friends who grew up in the inner city, wouldn't blink, nor would they care.



Peace,





M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Cre8
Charter member
17379 posts
Thu Mar-07-02 05:54 PM

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76. "RE: Just proves my point"
In response to Reply # 74


  

          

>>Never said we had to be
>>like each other, however i
>>find it strange that only
>>blacks and browns are at
>>high ass rates for the
>>disease despite we only make
>>up 24% of the population
>>put together, yet 60% of
>>the population is damn near
>>drama free. This is not
>>to say that that 60%
>>has a miracle drug however
>>they do have the POWER
>>to lower the rates. But
>>considering all the babies that
>>blacks and brown produce i
>>guess they need some form
>>of population control. Which i
>>see to be the same
>>thing happening in Africa. especially
>>since white farmers are being
>>made to flee from some
>>countries.
>
>It's strange, just look around you,
>there are plenty of reasons
>and it's not that Whites
>all got together and are
>hiding somethign from brown people.
>
>
Simply put: If you hold out on resources then yes you are hiding something.
>
>>>Just because white communities aren't
>>>having as many teenage pregnancies
>>>doesn't mean they're hiding them.
>>>You're basically assuming that these
>>>white communities HAVE to be
>>>like the Black ones.
>>>
>>No they don't have to be
>>like black ones, hell even
>>if we had the equal
>>economic levels and so on
>>we still wouldn't be alike.
>
>But if we had the same
>access to information, health care
>and similar attitudes towards sex,
>things would be a lot
>closer.

BINGO: IF we had the same access to information, health care ...as for similar attitudes, are you saying all middle income whites feel this way/all poor blacks feel this way?
>
>>However abortion has always been more
>>exceptable amongst whites than blacks.
>>Many black women think of
>>an abortion as taboo and
>>will encourage their daughters to
>>have a child rather than
>>abort. The same goes for
>>latinos.
>
>How many Blacks do you know
>of that have blown up
>abortion clinics?
>
How many blacks you know fight for pro-choice, protesting and such?

>Regardless, I think that few of
>them are getting to the
>point where they need an
>abortion (Since the pregnancy rates
>are so much lower in
>the first place) and many
>of them wouldn't abort either,
>with the heavy presence of
>Right Wing conservatives infesting the
>burbs, I don't see it
>happening very often.
>
I hope your not saying that white burbanites would have kids based on RightWing groups.

>IMHO, they are more likely to
>simply send the child "to
>aunt patties house" and have
>her give up the child
>for adoption.
>
Have you seen the low rate of white kids in adoption? Do you think whites would adopting over seas from Romania if the likely white girl were to take that route?

>>I get some of what your
>>saying but what is your
>>point for why blacks are
>>at high rates for AIDS
>>compared to whites? Cause I
>>know married black couples without
>>kids and singles without kids
>>or disease, and as far
>>as my friends go I'm
>>the only one with a
>>child, so are you saying
>>that the majority of blacks
>>don't hold not having kids
>>until marriage as a high
>>priority?
>
>I'm saying we don't place the
>same stigma on having illegitamate
>kids as Whites do. When
>you don't have the same
>Stigma you don't worry about
>it as much.
>
I really don't think thats the case considering the outof wed births that white female celebraties are making popular. And it is a stigma in the black community cause everyone knows that if it happens you become a statistic in everyones eyes(b&w). No one
wants to be a statistic.

>Do you think Black families are
>as ashamed as White ones
>to tell people that their
>16 year old daughter is
>pregnant, do you think that
>girl experiences as much of
>a "social cut" from those
>around her?
>
How many black teens do you know that what pregnant and what was their families reaction? Believe the shit is looked down on and yes the girl is given a social cut, however the girl is not thrown out of the family if thats what your getting at, but she might receive a beat down, no lie.

>Growing up, White girl around me
>got pregnant, it was pretty
>much social death. Guy skipped
>town, no one would really
>talk to her, when she
>came back to school, they
>refused to let her be
>on the Cheerleading Squad, she
>was made fun of, etc,
>etc...she had to transfer to
>a new school and her
>family moved away. In the
>new town, the passed the
>girl off as the girl's
>younger sister.
>
That sounds like some 1960 shit and if that be the case then I'm pretty sure white girls are aborting their asses off.
Anyway as I come to think of it, back in 96 in MPLS I was talking with my roomy(whitemiddleclass, Iowa) and she was telling me of how her and her best friend would have each others backs when taking pregnancy test and without me even asking what she would have done with the kid she told me '...because i knew I couldn't keep it'. Now I doubt that she was talking about giving it up, considering she was modeling. What good is a model with stretch marks?

>Know any Black families that would
>happen too?
>
Yeah back in 1960, but that goes for white families too.

>In fact, if a girl got
>pregnant around me, it was
>a given she was moving
>away/going to a different school,
>it was too much to
>deal with.
>
>
>>>
>>>Planned Parenthood: It's a Standard Operating
>>>Procedure amongst a lot of
>>>the people I grew up
>>>around and went to college
>>>with. If a girl becomes
>>>very sexually active with a
>>>boyfriend or is just promiscuos,
>>>she goes to PP to
>>>get on the pill, get
>>>a Diaphram, get a depo
>>>shot, even in high school
>>>(My high school discretely provided
>>>the information).
>>
>>But you grew up in the
>>burbs, how many PP's are
>>in the city where a
>>prodominate number of blacks live?
>>In my town 0.
>
>Exactly...less birth control availability is going
>to cause more pregnancies and
>transmission of disease.
>
Why we still on this shit?
>>>
>>>It's a different environment when it
>>>comes to safe sex and
>>>pregnancy.....of course this is more
>>>true with middle class white
>>>communities then Blue Collar/Low Income
>>>ones.
>>>
>>But if you gave both the
>>SAME(EQUAL) options and facilities then
>>things might not be so
>>different.
>
>Agreed.
>
>>>As for abortions....in a small community,
>>>it's hard to keep things
>>>secret and a lot of
>>>girls can't get them as
>>>teens, and like I said,
>>>in that different environment, it's
>>>all that neccessary.
>>>
If somebody wants to get an abortion bad enough and be secretive about, they will find a way.
>>>>>
>>>>>How about better health and sex
>>>>>education?
>>>>
>>>>Your right, unfortunately I have yet
>>>>to see a PlanParenthood in
>>>>a black community. And considering
>>>>'inner city' schools are at
>>>>the bottom of the barrel
>>>>(inChicago)I guess "inner city" kids
>>>>aren't getting the needed education.
>>>
>>>I'm in 100% agreement with you.
>>>When I was in high
>>>school my girlfriend and I
>>>just went down there after
>>>school and she was able
>>>to get the Birth Control
>>>pill, no muss no fuss.
>>>
>>>
>>>How many Inner city kids have
>>>that option?
>>>
>>>How many of them fear pregnancy
>>>like middle class kids do?
>>>
>>MANY, no one wants to conitue
>>to live in poverty and
>>everyone wants something better for
>>their kids than what they
>>had.
>
>But look at their actions.
>
>70% of White kids aren't born
>out of wedlock.
>
But still the RESOURCES to achieve that goal are not in BLACK communities.
>>>
>>>I've never heard of inner city
>>>kids hiding their pregnancies, or
>>>killing their babies because they're
>>>afraid of their parents finding
>>>out.
>>>
>>well you grew up in the
>>burbs, so how could you
>>know.
>
>Touche'
>
>But I doubt the fear/stigma is
>as high.
>
>If I started dating a woman
>with a child who had
>the child when she was
>in her teens, I doubt
>my suburbanite friends would be
>very accepting of her.

What that got to do with this. Hell i know men raised by they mommas they don't date women with kids and avoid it at all cost.
>
>Most of my family, some of
>my Black friends who grew
>up in the inner city,
>wouldn't blink, nor would they
>care.
>
Okay your burby friends would look at you cross-eye for dating a women with a kid half her age, yet your black friends would just yarn?
>
>Peace,
>
>
>
>
>
>M2

M2 you confusing the hell out of me. I'm just saying if you don't give equal advantage to people you can't expect equal outcomes. Blacks do not up hold out of wedlock kids as something great, everyone would want their child to marry, have a good education, and career before having a kid. Stop making it seem like Blacks don't want or value these things.

I'm out

Food/Drink PlayersCookbook Info:
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M2
Charter member
10072 posts
Fri Mar-08-02 12:58 PM

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87. "RE: Just proves my point"
In response to Reply # 76


          

>Simply put: If you hold out
>on resources then yes you
>are hiding something.

It's a funding issue, and it's not like people can't hop on busses.



>>
>>>>Just because white communities aren't
>>>>having as many teenage pregnancies
>>>>doesn't mean they're hiding them.
>>>>You're basically assuming that these
>>>>white communities HAVE to be
>>>>like the Black ones.
>>>>
>>>No they don't have to be
>>>like black ones, hell even
>>>if we had the equal
>>>economic levels and so on
>>>we still wouldn't be alike.
>>
>>But if we had the same
>>access to information, health care
>>and similar attitudes towards sex,
>>things would be a lot
>>closer.
>
>BINGO: IF we had the same
>access to information, health care
>...as for similar attitudes, are
>you saying all middle income
>whites feel this way/all poor
>blacks feel this way?

In general, yes.

My own experiences with dating/sleeping dealing with people of lower socio-economic status (Of all races) tell me that I'm much more likely to be able to get away with: "I'll pull out Baby" "Condoms bother me" then women of similar or higher socioeconomic status to me.

I think we talked about this before on another thread, weren't you the one that said that the only White women at your job who have kids were either married or divorced?



>>
>>>However abortion has always been more
>>>exceptable amongst whites than blacks.
>>>Many black women think of
>>>an abortion as taboo and
>>>will encourage their daughters to
>>>have a child rather than
>>>abort. The same goes for
>>>latinos.
>>
>>How many Blacks do you know
>>of that have blown up
>>abortion clinics?
>>
>How many blacks you know fight
>for pro-choice, protesting and such?

Plenty.



>>Regardless, I think that few of
>>them are getting to the
>>point where they need an
>>abortion (Since the pregnancy rates
>>are so much lower in
>>the first place) and many
>>of them wouldn't abort either,
>>with the heavy presence of
>>Right Wing conservatives infesting the
>>burbs, I don't see it
>>happening very often.
>>
>I hope your not saying that
>white burbanites would have kids
>based on RightWing groups.

A lot of people in the Suburbs are against abortion, where do you think those pro-life protestors come from? Who do you think makes the most noise about getting laws passed that require the child to get parental consent if the kid wants an abortion?

Suburbanites.

You seem to think that a lot of white people are just killing their babies and that's why the birth rate is lower, when that's just not true, they're simply getting pregnant at lower rates in the first place.

>>IMHO, they are more likely to
>>simply send the child "to
>>aunt patties house" and have
>>her give up the child
>>for adoption.
>>
>Have you seen the low rate
>of white kids in adoption?
>Do you think whites would
>adopting over seas from Romania
>if the likely white girl
>were to take that route?

#1. It's actually much cheaper and easier to adopt kids from overseas then from America. A lot of parents do this because they don't feel like waiting.

#2. There are fewer White kids waiting to be adopted, because White people are more likely to adopt in the first place, While Black people are far less likely to adopt. I knew plenty of adopted White kids (from america) growing up.

#3. Much lower pregnancy and birth rates amongst single mothers, resulting in far fewer kids being put up for adoption.


>>>I get some of what your
>>>saying but what is your
>>>point for why blacks are
>>>at high rates for AIDS
>>>compared to whites? Cause I
>>>know married black couples without
>>>kids and singles without kids
>>>or disease, and as far
>>>as my friends go I'm
>>>the only one with a
>>>child, so are you saying
>>>that the majority of blacks
>>>don't hold not having kids
>>>until marriage as a high
>>>priority?
>>
>>I'm saying we don't place the
>>same stigma on having illegitamate
>>kids as Whites do. When
>>you don't have the same
>>Stigma you don't worry about
>>it as much.
>>
>I really don't think thats the
>case considering the outof wed
>births that white female celebraties
>are making popular. And it
>is a stigma in the
>black community cause everyone knows
>that if it happens you
>become a statistic in everyones
>eyes(b&w). No one
>wants to be a statistic.

Not the same thing.

White Female Celebrities (Of which they are like 3) can do what they want, doesn't mean people would accept it if it was right next door.

Like I said, none of my White friends is going to date a White Baby Mama......while in the Black community, it's not a big deal. Divorce is one thing, but out of Wedlock? No way, Jose.

A few years back, my secretary (White, lived in a Middle Class area, very attractive) had guys more or less running from her house because she was 25 with an 9 year old son.

My Boss' secretary (Black, 27, 2 kids, lived in Philly) didn't really have problems with guys dissing her because she had kids.

I'm not saying there isn't a Stigma, but it isn't ANYWHERE are as strong as the Stigma in White communities. I've observed both and the difference is striking.

>>Do you think Black families are
>>as ashamed as White ones
>>to tell people that their
>>16 year old daughter is
>>pregnant, do you think that
>>girl experiences as much of
>>a "social cut" from those
>>around her?
>>
>How many black teens do you
>know that what pregnant and
>what was their families reaction?
>Believe the shit is looked
>down on and yes the
>girl is given a social
>cut, however the girl is
>not thrown out of the
>family if thats what your
>getting at, but she might
>receive a beat down, no
>lie.

Beat Down Vs. Disowned by your parents, Beat Down Vs. Disowned by your Parents, Beat Down Vs. Disowned by your parents.

Hmm......


The social cut is no where near as severe.


>That sounds like some 1960 shit
>and if that be the
>case then I'm pretty sure
>white girls are aborting their
>asses off.

#1. Teenagers can't get abortions without their parents finding out.

#2. A lot of parents put their kids on the pill, or the kid finds a way to do it themselves.

#3. Because of the reprocussions, they work a lot harder at making sure they always use birth control, so they're simply not getting pregnant in the first place. Remember, this girls have MUCH lower rates of pregnancy, let alone births.

Please let go of this whole abortion crap and accept the fact that a different attitude/priorities towards birth control is behind 90-95% of the difference here. When you have people who just accept that they can get to age 30 without getting pregnant (let alone giving birth) they're obviously conducting themselves different with respect to sex and birth control.




>Anyway as I come to think
>of it, back in 96
>in MPLS I was talking
>with my roomy(whitemiddleclass, Iowa) and
>she was telling me of
>how her and her best
>friend would have each others
>backs when taking pregnancy test
>and without me even asking
>what she would have done
>with the kid she told
>me '...because i knew I
>couldn't keep it'. Now I
>doubt that she was talking
>about giving it up, considering
>she was modeling. What good
>is a model with stretch
>marks?

If she's that afraid of abortion, she's almost definitely on the pill or Depo, and won't be having sex without a condom. Because of the "fear" she is going to make damn sure she doesn't get prengant in the first place.......when in this day and age, isn't that hard.



>>Know any Black families that would
>>happen too?
>>
>Yeah back in 1960, but that
>goes for white families too.

They still do it, but it's rare, because they aren't getting pregnant in the first place.


>>Exactly...less birth control availability is going
>>to cause more pregnancies and
>>transmission of disease.
>>
>Why we still on this shit?

Because you're the one talking about some secret causing the difference in rates of HIV transmission and I'm telling you why, obviously it's an answer you don't want to accept, you'd rather Blame Whitey.


Any activity that can get you pregnant can get you infected with HIV, SO lower use of birth control is going to result in higher rates of infection.


>>>>As for abortions....in a small community,
>>>>it's hard to keep things
>>>>secret and a lot of
>>>>girls can't get them as
>>>>teens, and like I said,
>>>>in that different environment, it's
>>>>all that neccessary.
>>>>
>If somebody wants to get an
>abortion bad enough and be
>secretive about, they will find
>a way.

C'mon you damn well folk can't keep anything secret, especially teenagers.

Boyfriend knows, he tells his boy because he has to tell someone, or the girl tells her best friend and 3 months later, everyone more or less knows.



>But still the RESOURCES to achieve
>that goal are not in
>BLACK communities.

It's not all about resources, it's thinking and habits as well.

People can't drive/take a bus to PP, for something that's this important?

People can't walk to the corner Bodega and buy condoms?

Resources would reduce some of this, but sometimes (especially for something this critical) people need to step up and handle their business.


>>If I started dating a woman
>>with a child who had
>>the child when she was
>>in her teens, I doubt
>>my suburbanite friends would be
>>very accepting of her.
>
>What that got to do with
>this. Hell i know men
>raised by they mommas they
>don't date women with kids
>and avoid it at all
>cost.

You're missing the point (again)

The point is that the stigma is SO HIGH, that having kids an early age more or less results in social ostracization, SO people are going to much more careful about not having kids.




>>
>>Most of my family, some of
>>my Black friends who grew
>>up in the inner city,
>>wouldn't blink, nor would they
>>care.
>>
>Okay your burby friends would look
>at you cross-eye for dating
>a women with a kid
>half her age, yet your
>black friends would just yarn?

More or less......if they said anything it might be: "why do you want to deal with a kid?" but they wouldn't be passing judgement on the girl as if she was a slut, trash, stupid, beneath us, etc.

Like I said, the stigma against teen parents/people who have kids in their early 20s is very high.



>M2 you confusing the hell out
>of me. I'm just saying
>if you don't give equal
>advantage to people you can't
>expect equal outcomes. Blacks do
>not up hold out of
>wedlock kids as something great,
>everyone would want their child
>to marry, have a good
>education, and career before having
>a kid. Stop making it
>seem like Blacks don't want
>or value these things.
>
>I'm out

I'm not saying they DON'T value these things, I'm saying that they don't value them as MUCH, because if they did 70% of Black kids wouldn't be born out of wedlock, lack of resources isn't the whole story, attitudes is a lot of it.

Because if people were of the mind of, "Hey, I can't get what I need to protect myself sexually" they would find a way to get it, or not have sex, Suburbanites in similar situations do it all the time.

I know plenty of girls who didn't have sex because they were afraid of getting pregnant before they finished college, or waited until they got to college and could get the pill from the health center.




Peace,







M2


The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Cre8
Charter member
17379 posts
Thu Mar-07-02 05:21 PM

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75. "RE: Just proves...cont."
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

>>>I grew up in White Suburban
>>>communities where you'd have maybe
>>>ONE kid at the local
>>>high school with a baby,
>>>how many Black communities can
>>>say that?
>>>
>>>PLUS, there seems to be a
>>>general trend in White people
>>>being more likely to engage
>>>in Oral sex, which supposedly
>>>doesn't transmitt the disease/isn't as
>>>likely to...because stomach acid kills
>>>the virus before it can
>>>be transmitted....couldn't that be a
>>>factor?
>>
>>or Abortion, just you didn't see
>>it don't mean it didn't
>>exist.
>
>Change your thinking, one doesn't have
>to be like the other.
>Just because white communities aren't
>having as many teenage pregnancies
>doesn't mean they're hiding them.
>You're basically assuming that these
>white communities HAVE to be
>like the Black ones.
>
>Quick thoughts:
>
>I'm 26 and don't have any
>children, something that a lot
>of my friends from High
>School and college don't find
>strange. However, a lot of
>my lower income Black friends
>and family, and lower income
>White friends DO find it
>odd, especially since I've more
>or less been involved with
>someone over the last 8
>years or so.
>
>It's called expectations, one group expects
>that they'll eventually have kids
>or that "it's life", while
>the other puts a VERY
>high priority on making sure
>they don't have kids out
>of wedlock.
>
>I went to high school with
>quite a few girls who
>were on the pill, when
>it came to sex, getting
>pregnant was the #1 reason
>offered for not doing it,
>(Disease was second) so even
>she was on the pill,
>condoms were often still used.
>I have a friend who
>has been sexually active since
>he was 15 (Also 26)
>never done it "bareback" even
>though the only two girls
>he slept with was on
>the pill. His experience is
>not uncommon, people are afraid
>of pregnancy before they think
>they're ready.
>
>Planned Parenthood: It's a Standard Operating
>Procedure amongst a lot of
>the people I grew up
>around and went to college
>with. If a girl becomes
>very sexually active with a
>boyfriend or is just promiscuos,
>she goes to PP to
>get on the pill, get
>a Diaphram, get a depo
>shot, even in high school
>(My high school discretely provided
>the information).
>
>It's a different environment when it
>comes to safe sex and
>pregnancy.....of course this is more
>true with middle class white
>communities then Blue Collar/Low Income
>ones.
>
>As for abortions....in a small community,
>it's hard to keep things
>secret and a lot of
>girls can't get them as
>teens, and like I said,
>in that different environment, it's
>all that neccessary.
>

But this mean it wasn't done? I'm sure if someone wanted to have an abortion and keep it underwraps they very well could.
>
>>>
>>>How about better health and sex
>>>education?
>>
>>Your right, unfortunately I have yet
>>to see a PlanParenthood in
>>a black community. And considering
>>'inner city' schools are at
>>the bottom of the barrel
>>(inChicago)I guess "inner city" kids
>>aren't getting the needed education.
>
>I'm in 100% agreement with you.
>When I was in high
>school my girlfriend and I
>just went down there after
>school and she was able
>to get the Birth Control
>pill, no muss no fuss.
>
>
>How many Inner city kids have
>that option? 0 black, just the whitekids that reside on the North side close to Evanston and so on. I don't even see PP's in the south suburbs, guess theres too many brown faces there too.
>
>How many of them fear pregnancy
>like middle class kids do?

So your saying blackmiddle and black poor kids don't fear pregnancy? I doubt that any poor kid, regardless of color, wants their kid to grow up in the conditions they grew up in.
>
>I've never heard of inner city
>kids hiding their pregnancies, or
>killing their babies because they're
>afraid of their parents finding
>out.
>
But you didn't grow up in the inner city, and i knew a few girls that jumped down stairs, duched to no end with pepsi, and got into fights just to loose a kid. As a matter of fact I went to a prodomenately white school to make sure I didn't get pregnant.
>>>
>>>How about the fact that disease
>>>transmission occurs exponentially, so all
>>>it takes is one factor
>>>to cause it transmitt faster
>>>in one group then another
>>>and BOOM one group has
>>>a much higher rate.

One Factor, what factor and do only black and latinos hold that factor?
>>>
>>Okay so your saying the black
>>community are full of hoes?
>>In that case what is
>>to come of the white
>>community considering interacial dating, and
>>seeing that AIDS was first
>>found to be heavy in
>>the white gay male circle,
>>how is it that in
>>less than 10 years the
>>shit suddenly flipped?
>
>Who said anything about promiscuity? Even
>with a lower level of
>sexually activity then Whites, ONE
>factor that is going to
>promote aids transmission in the
>Black community can cause much
>higher rates.
>
What FACTOR? You make it sound like we have a special gene that connects us to AIDS.

>Interracial dating is still a small
>% of all relationships, and
>when it happens it occurs
>between people of similar socio-economic
>backgrounds.
Thats a damn lie. I know plenty of black men and women in lower social groups who are dating and married to whites of higher social groups. Maybe you thought i meant relationship as dating. Not so, I'm talking about people kicking it or just having casual sex, which I'm seeing to be a main purpose for many in interacial relationships.

So a Black Youth
>(Like me) who grows up
>in a White Suburban community,
>is going to benefit from
>the education and resources available
>as well as being influenced
>by that community's attitudes on
>sex and pregnancy.
>
Now what if those resources where available in black communities as well. Do you think we would have the high rate of AIDS or pregnancy? See this is the secret that i was talking about. Although its not a secret, it is still NOT available to black communities and if you think i'm lying go to a inner city black community such as the south or west side of Chicago and tell me how many resources you see.
>
PLUS, how many Blacks from poor
>Black communities (The ones I
>assume you're referring to) date
>White Women?
You'd probably be surprised, but I wouldn't. Also considering you went to college and I'm guessing lived on a campus, tell me how many of the black guys who dated(had sex) with white girls where of middle class? A guy could be from the Icky's (projects), but how would you know that if he didn't tell you? How many white girls would tell a black guy no simply because he is from the inner city.

How many of
>those White Women sleep with
>these guys and don't engage
>in safe sex?
>
I'm not in the bedroom with them so hell if i know, however someone must not be using protection considering the birht of interracial babies is not at a low.

>The White Gay Male community was
>the primary focus of a
>lot of the education towards
>preventing the spread of aids
>and was the community with
>the greatest amount of vigilance
>aimed towards preventing its spread.
>On top of that, other
>communities who weren't educated about
>its spread, were operating under
>the assumption that it was
>a "Gay Disease".
>
This leads us back to resources and availability 101. What good is it to have an antedote (information) that could prevent you from dying and holding it from you.
>
>Nothing suddenly flipped, it was a
>gradual change, people just noticed
>because they thought it was
>a "Gay Thing" AIDS has
>been rising amongst Heterosexual communities
>for some time.
>
But you see whites in general where given the upper hand becuase they were given the information, however it was kept from blacks and browns unitl sometime later, then suddenly the information is giving to us. Well is just a little too damn late and this occurs with every and anything dealing with black people. A prime example is the tuskeegee experiment. Not only was information held back from these men, but the damn cure was too. Once bitten 2wice shy. Who's to say the same thing isn't occuring now.
>
>Peace,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>M2



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M2
Charter member
10072 posts
Fri Mar-08-02 12:28 PM

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86. "RE: Just proves...cont."
In response to Reply # 75


          

>>As for abortions....in a small community,
>>it's hard to keep things
>>secret and a lot of
>>girls can't get them as
>>teens, and like I said,
>>in that different environment, it's
>>all that neccessary.
>>
>
>But this mean it wasn't done?
>I'm sure if someone wanted
>to have an abortion and
>keep it underwraps they very
>well could.

Your neglecting a very important fact:

Since White Teens/Young people typically fear pregnancy/disease a great deal more then Black Teens/Young People do, they are far less likely to be in the position to NEED abortions in the first place.

Use of birth control is the primary reason for the differences in single-mother birth rates, NOT abortion, simple because they are far less likely to get pregnant in the first place, let alone give birth.

Your insistence that the difference is due to abortions, ignores the reason for the difference in birth rates and effectively takes the solution off the table.

If someone says, well that White Community over there has less teen parents then we do because of abortion, that basically gives the message of: "There is nothing we can do to stop this problem but have abortions".

It also more or less validates the irresponsible behavior of teens who don't use condoms, don't get on birth control, don't make birth control a priority.

Like I said, I've NEVER had a fellow suburbanite ask me why I don't have kids, *ME* the Unmarried Bachelor. The thought never crosses their minds, because they figure I (like themselves) would use Birth control.

Just on this Board I've heard people say that people having kids by their mid-20s "is just life", that people who don't want to date someone with kids, are being unrealistic, that it's odd for someone in their late 20s to not have children......let alone the people who've said it in real life.

The people who says this are predominantly lower income/blue collar Black people who grew up in and around the inner cities.


>>I'm in 100% agreement with you.
>>When I was in high
>>school my girlfriend and I
>>just went down there after
>>school and she was able
>>to get the Birth Control
>>pill, no muss no fuss.
>>
>>
>>How many Inner city kids have
>>that option? 0 black, just the whitekids that reside on the North side close to Evanston and so on. I don't even see PP's in the south suburbs, guess theres too many brown faces there too.

Okay, but even without PP those kids can just go to Rite Aid and buy condoms. In fact, a lot of their parents will just take them to the doctor and put them on the pill.

A lot of the kids in the inner cities aren't even using Condoms, let alone having their parents put them on the pill.

I don't want to hear about the cost of health care either, you can get the pill for about $30/month or get depo for $45 which will last you for 3 months.


>>
>>How many of them fear pregnancy
>>like middle class kids do?
>
>So your saying blackmiddle and black
>poor kids don't fear pregnancy?
>I doubt that any poor
>kid, regardless of color, wants
>their kid to grow up
>in the conditions they grew
>up in.

70% of Black children are born to Un-married mothers.

People in the inner cities are still having children, are they not? So obviously they either wanted the children, or they weren't careful. You would think that someone who doesn't want their kids to grow up in the conditions they did would be the MOST vigilant when it came to birth control.

I'm saying that inner city youth don't fear pregnancy anywhere near as much as suburban kids do. I've got two step-cousins with 5 kids between them (Neither one is old enough to drink) because the guy wouldn't use condoms and they didn't protest.

You rarely get away with that shit in the burbs, and if you do, the girl is on the Pill, it's a one time thing and she gets the morning after pill the next day....hell I know people who've got the morning after pill "just to be safe" when they did use a condom.

>>
>>I've never heard of inner city
>>kids hiding their pregnancies, or
>>killing their babies because they're
>>afraid of their parents finding
>>out.
>>
>But you didn't grow up in
>the inner city, and i
>knew a few girls that
>jumped down stairs, duched to
>no end with pepsi, and
>got into fights just to
>loose a kid. As a
>matter of fact I went
>to a prodomenately white school
>to make sure I didn't
>get pregnant.

What about the girls that didn't?

70% of Black children are born into single parent homes.

It seems that you're in the minority.


>One Factor, what factor and do
>only black and latinos hold
>that factor?

When you look at the fact that those populations have MUCH higher pregnancy rates due to unprotected sex, it stands to reason that they are going to have MUCH higher disease transmission rates.

One is a symptom/indicative of the other.


>>Who said anything about promiscuity? Even
>>with a lower level of
>>sexually activity then Whites, ONE
>>factor that is going to
>>promote aids transmission in the
>>Black community can cause much
>>higher rates.
>>
>What FACTOR? You make it sound
>like we have a special
>gene that connects us to
>AIDS.

Read Above.


>>Interracial dating is still a small
>>% of all relationships, and
>>when it happens it occurs
>>between people of similar socio-economic
>>backgrounds.
>Thats a damn lie. I know
>plenty of black men and
>women in lower social groups
>who are dating and married
>to whites of higher social
>groups. Maybe you thought i
>meant relationship as dating. Not
>so, I'm talking about people
>kicking it or just having
>casual sex, which I'm seeing
>to be a main purpose
>for many in interacial relationships.

What inner-racial relationships? Aren't they mostly just "kicking it" and casual sex?

Regardless:

Whites of higher social groups are more likely to use protection.

The majority of interracial relationships involve people of similar social class, they may not have "grown up" in the same social class, but when they're dating, they themselves are in a similar social class. The reason for this is that our society is still fairly segregated and most white people have somewhat of a problem with interracial dating, so the opportunities and the inclination to do date outside your race isn't always there.

Your preception of the purpose interracial dating, is more or less irrelevant to this discussion.

In the end, interracial dating is still a small percentage of all dating.

>
>So a Black Youth
>>(Like me) who grows up
>>in a White Suburban community,
>>is going to benefit from
>>the education and resources available
>>as well as being influenced
>>by that community's attitudes on
>>sex and pregnancy.
>>
>Now what if those resources where
>available in black communities as
>well. Do you think we
>would have the high rate
>of AIDS or pregnancy? See
>this is the secret that
>i was talking about. Although
>its not a secret, it
>is still NOT available to
>black communities and if you
>think i'm lying go to
>a inner city black community
>such as the south or
>west side of Chicago and
>tell me how many resources
>you see.

Then it's not a secret, it's a resource issue which affects poor White communities as well.

AND, since these people could use Condoms (Which they know exist) get on the pill themselves and in general aren't as concerned with birth control, there needs to be a paradigm shift in values, moreso then an increase in the amount of resources.

Because it's not like you can't hop on the buss and go to a PP that's not in your community, or get in your car and drive there.

People around me do it all the time.

>>Black communities (The ones I
>>assume you're referring to) date
>>White Women?
>You'd probably be surprised, but I
>wouldn't. Also considering you went
>to college and I'm guessing
>lived on a campus, tell
>me how many of the
>black guys who dated(had sex)
>with white girls where of
>middle class? A guy could
>be from the Icky's (projects),
>but how would you know
>that if he didn't tell
>you? How many white girls
>would tell a black guy
>no simply because he is
>from the inner city.

Read above on your parent's social class vs. your own.

When I was in college, yes there were Black guys dating White girls, it didn't matter where they came from, because we all were at the same school.

BUT:

Protection was used, especially when the was a danger of carrying a mixed race baby and the girl in question was trying to piss off her parents or have a "chocolate fantasy", and didn't have a genuine interest in the guy.

There was a small % of women who dated Black Men, and only a slightly larger % who would consider it if the right guy came along, Read: Someone of a similar background who they perceived as being "just like them" but of a different skin color. So Brothas like me had maybe 4% more options then someone from the inner city.

In the end though, it's not like 100% of the white female student body would Date Black men, especially when I know of some Brothas who hooked up with a white girl who wouldn't admit it the next day.

See, you date one Black guy and you become the White Girl who dates Black guys, or other White guys feel inadaquate in simply talking to you next time you're single.....some women weren't ready to make that leap.




>How many of
>>those White Women sleep with
>>these guys and don't engage
>>in safe sex?
>>
>I'm not in the bedroom with
>them so hell if i
>know, however someone must not
>be using protection considering the
>birht of interracial babies is
>not at a low.

Not likely in a college or suburbanite situation, what makes you think they're going to say: "Oh, it's a Brotha, no condoms tonigh!" Do you think Black men have super sperm that breaks through birth control, or that White Women are somehow immune to HIV?

No.

Those interracial babies are typically born to people who are married/in serious relationships, not quite the same thing as a child born to a single mother.

Still, there are still a small % of all births.

>>The White Gay Male community was
>>the primary focus of a
>>lot of the education towards
>>preventing the spread of aids
>>and was the community with
>>the greatest amount of vigilance
>>aimed towards preventing its spread.
>>On top of that, other
>>communities who weren't educated about
>>its spread, were operating under
>>the assumption that it was
>>a "Gay Disease".
>>
>This leads us back to resources
>and availability 101. What good
>is it to have an
>antedote (information) that could prevent
>you from dying and holding
>it from you.

It's not about holding, it's about funding and economics, since these factors affect white communities too. STILL, some of the onus has to be placed on Black people who aren't making the effort to make birth control a priority.

My last girlfriend got her pills from PP, there isn't one around where we lived, So we got in my car and drove there, just like someone from West Philly could've got on the bus and done the same, or just walked down the street to Rite Aid and bought a box of Trojans.

I recognize the lack of resources, but I also recognize that people are not making the effort to use the resources they DO have.

How can you decide to have sex, knowing it can get you pregnant, knowing you are NOT ready to bring life into the world and not take precautions and act like if something happens, "it's just life"?!

Let's think on that for a second. It's thanksgiving, people younger then me with kids roll up to my Mom's place for dinner, a lot of whom are on "some" public assistance, not married, the man (or woman) is no where to be found.....I'm single.....and they're talking to Me, like I'M the one who is "weird" because I somehow escaped having children, telling me that I can't decide not to have kids because kids "just happen" that "it's life" that it's ridiculous for me not to date so and so because she has a kid....opinions that are echoed by many of their friends and people who live around them......

.......you don't think they need a paradigm shift with regards to their thinking, moreso then resources?!

C'mon.


>But you see whites in general
>where given the upper hand
>becuase they were given the
>information, however it was kept
>from blacks and browns unitl
>sometime later, then suddenly the
>information is giving to us.
>Well is just a little
>too damn late and this
>occurs with every and anything
>dealing with black people. A
>prime example is the tuskeegee
>experiment. Not only was information
>held back from these men,
>but the damn cure was
>too. Once bitten 2wice shy.
>Who's to say the same
>thing isn't occuring now.

It's called economics and funding, poor whites have very high single parent rates too, high rates of disease, and suffer from a lot of the same attitudes/lack of information that cause it.

My Jr. Year my family moved and I went to a high school that was 80% low income whites, instead of 80% high income Whites, a lot of the same shit, just with a different skin color. The only difference is that *some* of the problems were offset by having *slightly* more economic resources.....but in the end, it's the same shit.




Peace,







M2



The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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thrill_factor
Charter member
10183 posts
Fri Mar-08-02 03:12 PM

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90. "RE: Just proves...cont."
In response to Reply # 86


          



Aight, I can't resist this anymore.

Two points.

#1. On Feminism.

Expertise is right. Single-female-headed householdness has much more to do with feminism and women's rights movement than slavery, which is why you see a boom in SFH households all over the world after the Sixties. The prime reason that it's less so among white Americans than black Americans is that the wage differential among black people is narrower than among white people. Narrower the gap, the more likely women are to be married.

As an aside, it's also true that there were a huge number of lesbians in second wave feminism, see Betty Friedan on the Lavendar Menace or any history book. It's for the same reason lesbians have been grossly overrepresented in American progressive social movements of all kinds (see Faderman): no babies=more time. It's also true that the movement women were largely white, but we shouldn't whitewash history, from Alice Walker to Barbara Smith to Audre Lorde, many black women were involved. See Sisterhood is Global. And as for actual support for women's liberation:
http://www.prospect.org/print/V11/9/mansbridge-j.html


#2.

>The people who says this are
>predominantly lower income/blue collar Black
>people who grew up in
>and around the inner cities.


I took a look at some state by state comparisons and teen pregnancies rates were much much higher in the South (missippi, missouri etc) than in the North, so I don't know about the inner city. But I'm glad you brought class into it, because...


I've got two step-cousins
>with 5 kids between them
>(Neither one is old enough
>to drink) because the guy
>wouldn't use condoms and they
>didn't protest.


How in God's name can you say this out of one side of your mouth and then say "as a Black man I'm not going to kid myself and say that society isn't more friendly to Black women then it is to Black men, because that's not true" out of the other. These girls didn't tell the guy to go fuck themselves because they based their self-esteem/hopes/etc on his approval. Their souls were crushed, as a black person, as a girl, as someone who is poor, as someone whose worth is defined by having a man, as someone who doesn't have that many other ways to get approval. Society made her want his attention more than she wanted to protect herself. And the poorer she is, the more isolated she is, the less hope she has, the more she is likely to give in. And then after she has a kid or two, she has a locus of female worth, and can assert herself. This is what the patriarchy *does*.





-----------------------------------
The odds still favor croupiers,
But give the wheel another spin.
Things break down in different ways:
We can't, for that, omit their praise.
--Tom Disch, Entropic Villanelle

  

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M2
Charter member
10072 posts
Fri Mar-08-02 03:59 PM

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91. "RE: Just proves...cont."
In response to Reply # 90


          


>Expertise is right. Single-female-headed householdness
>has much more to do
>with feminism and women's rights
>movement than slavery, which is
>why you see a boom
>in SFH households all over
>the world after the Sixties.
> The prime reason that
>it's less so among white
>Americans than black Americans is
>that the wage differential among
>black people is narrower than
>among white people. Narrower
>the gap, the more likely
>women are to be married.

I don't think women are deciding to raise their children on their own and not get married, if anything they are simply not taking the first person with an X chromosome that comes along, I think a woman waiting for a good man is better then her taking any man.

PLUS, what does that have to do with the man leaving and not having any influence in the child's life?

Or people being irresponsible and making kids that they can't take care of?

SO, I don't think it's all that relevant.

>As an aside, it's also true
>that there were a huge
>number of lesbians in second
>wave feminism, see Betty Friedan
>on the Lavendar Menace or
>any history book. It's
>for the same reason lesbians
>have been grossly overrepresented in
>American progressive social movements of
>all kinds (see Faderman):
>no babies=more time. It's
>also true that the movement
>women were largely white, but
>we shouldn't whitewash history, from
>Alice Walker to Barbara Smith
>to Audre Lorde, many black
>women were involved. See Sisterhood
>is Global. And as
>for actual support for women's
>liberation:
>http://www.prospect.org/print/V11/9/mansbridge-j.html

I'm saying though, when people say: "Lesbianism" they say it as if it has everything to do with pushing some sort of Lesbian agenda and not doing something to help women as a whole.

What if most of the Men involved in the Civil rights movement were Gay, would that make their work any less significant or valid to our lives today?


>#2.
>
>>The people who says this are
>>predominantly lower income/blue collar Black
>>people who grew up in
>>and around the inner cities.
>
>
>I took a look at some
>state by state comparisons and
>teen pregnancies rates were much
>much higher in the South
>(missippi, missouri etc) than in
>the North, so I don't
>know about the inner city.
> But I'm glad you
>brought class into it, because...
>
>
>
> I've got two step-cousins
>>with 5 kids between them
>>(Neither one is old enough
>>to drink) because the guy
>>wouldn't use condoms and they
>>didn't protest.
>
>
>How in God's name can you
>say this out of one
>side of your mouth and
>then say "as a Black
>man I'm not going to
>kid myself and say that
>society isn't more friendly to
>Black women then it is
>to Black men, because that's
>not true" out of the
>other. These girls didn't
>tell the guy to go
>fuck themselves because they based
>their self-esteem/hopes/etc on his approval.
> Their souls were crushed,
> as a black person,
>as a girl, as someone
>who is poor, as someone
>whose worth is defined by
>having a man, as someone
>who doesn't have that many
>other ways to get approval.
> Society made her want
>his attention more than she
>wanted to protect herself.
>And the poorer she is,
>the more isolated she is,
>the less hope she has,
>the more she is likely
>to give in. And
>then after she has a
>kid or two, she has
>a locus of female worth,
>and can assert herself.
>This is what the patriarchy
>*does*.

I wasn't talking about how MEN are treating women with respect to pregnancies, relationships, and Man/Woman dynamics.

I was talking about barriers to success, with respect to more Black women going to college, becoming professionals, being financially stable, etc.





Peace,







M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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LexM
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80. "interesting point..."
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

>I've never heard of inner city
>kids hiding their pregnancies, or
>killing their babies because they're
>afraid of their parents finding
>out.

I wonder why that is...

It also seems to me that inner city youth are more aware of std's in a sense (especially HIV/AIDS...maybe because of the prevalence of drug use in major cities & the likelihood of having a family member/acquaintance/friend infected) and less afraid of having babies.

I don't know which is worse.

_________________________________________________________
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wanna say hi? AIM: LadyDay78

~~~~
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KOONTZILLA
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84. "RE: Does matter"
In response to Reply # 53


          

>Do you actually think that the
>fates of blacks and white
>in this country aren't intertwined?
>
>
>What happens to one....sooner or later
>happens to the other.

TRUE THAT, JUST LOOK AT RICKI LAKE SHOW, MORE AND MORE YOUNG WHIT KIDS ARE ON THIS SHOW ACTING LIKE GHETTO BLACK FOLKS...

"Niggas mad cause Ibrags about the cash I got, but I'm used to not havin alot, I'm from the gutter and ohh..."-Jay-Z

"Expensive shoes worn, Loui Viton see-through gone, CoChes, my face is like a coupon..."Jay-Z

  

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Cre8
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85. "Ghetto=Black?"
In response to Reply # 84


  

          

O thats right, white kids don't act bad, they don't do bad stuff right. O wait a minute acting black IS acting bad. Okay I get it now.
So does that mean that when black kids act white their acting good? And if so if black kids act black are they acting bad?
Hold on it just came to me, ghetto is black.

Well wadda ya know.

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LexM
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27. "to follow up on Cre8's statement"
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

black women were not a big part of "women's lib". they were more concerned with survival than their rights.

however, had you said "integration", i might be a little more inclined to agree because of the various economic, psychological & sociological factors involved. (new closeness with the mainstream culture, flight to the suburbs, etc)

_________________________________________________________
"even isis knew heartbreak..."

need a hero? http://www.ghettosake.com
wanna say hi? AIM: LadyDay78

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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Expertise
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29. "the problem..."
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

with that is that family breakdown was not evident in any spector of American society until then.

Hence, I dont think it was integration that necessarily did it. However, indirectly that could be a fraction of it, since the move for integration was what allowed for more liberal expression. Not just feminism and collectivist thought, but the so-called "sexual revolution" as well.

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Solitayre
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17. "Hmmm. You're suspect."
In response to Reply # 13


  

          


_____________________________________________
DOWNLOAD THE HELLO EP Spit by yours truly!
http://www.zshare.net/download/80520753aae60df7/
Just a PSA

  

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Expertise
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18. "suspect of what?"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          


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M2
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Wed Mar-06-02 10:09 AM

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33. "During Slave Times..."
In response to Reply # 13


          

.....there wasn't a Black Family.

The concept of a Black family during slave times is disabused by the fact that your family members could be sold/taken away from you at any time and Blacks were treated like chattle.

Blaming "feminism" and liberal thinking is nothing more then a scape goat....for this one simple fact:

If liberalism & feminism destroyed so called "family values" in this country, then that means that the "family values" that existed, were only there because certain members of our society (Women) had no choice but to live a certain lifestyle.

Your point would be more valid if women had all the same options and rights men did leading up to the 60s.

In other words, it was a fragile house of cards that was bound to fall at some point, it was inevitable that at some point women would demand more rights/options and start pursuing them.

If the straw Breaks the camel's back, you don't blame the Straw, you recognize that the Camel had a bad back beforehand.

Other Thoughts:

If you talk to a lot of Blacks who were born into single parent homes, say in the last 30 years, you will find out that their parents and their parents and parents were ALSO born into single parent homes and the pattern is simply repeating itself.

Within the Black community at least, you have to give this some weight....and since these patterns go back to Slave times, it's logical to postulate that slavery had to have SOME effect, no?

Also, just due to prevailing social attitudes, people weren't as likely to admitt that they were having kids out of wedlock. They might avoid a hospital OR they may lie and claim they WERE married.

Before my mother's generation broke the cycle, three generations before her claimed to be married when they had their kids, as did other people around them......that skews the statistics significantly, don't you think?

A lot of single women were having kids and claiming their husbands "were in the army".

Socio-economic status:

Growing up, particularly in high school I was sort of in Limbo between people of different socio-economic status. I grew up middle class, but I had poorer relatives that I interacted with, during my high school years I went from the yuppie spawn high school to a high school that was mostly made up of Blue Collar and lower income kids.....the people in my neighborhood were of the same income level as my parents, but most of the kids at my high school weren't.

Something I noticed:

Hardly any my college classmates or middle class classmates from high school have a child (I'm 26) not one single child, people have just started getting married, but no one is having children yet.

The people I know who DO have kids, were Seniors when I was a freshman, making them 29-30 and their kids were born within the last 12 months.

I know ONE couple where the woman got pregnant out of wedlock....but they were Seniors in college...hell it didn't even stop her from setting scoring records in field hockey.....they graduated, got married, walked into professional life.....no muss, no fuss.

Now my poorer relatives/classmates, plenty of kids as teens and/or out of wedlock, lots of single parent homes, or "Baby Mama/Daddy" situations, there are some marriages, but that's not the prevailing pattern. These people look at me like I'm a mutant or a virgin since I don't have kids by age 26.

Due to the extreme split in attitudes/patterns in different socio-economic groups with respect to having children early, especially when the more affluent people tend to be more liberal and feminist minded...indicates to me that it's all not about feminism and liberalism.

Because feminist & liberal daughters of college educated parents, aren't likely to become pregnant in high school or college.

While daughters of plumbers who are conservative believers in family values.....are.

In other words, it's SOOOOO much more complicated then blaming liberalism and feminism.




Peace,








M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Expertise
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35. "RE: During Slave Times..."
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

maybe not during slavery, but once slavery was out black people were marrying, and were joining together in families. There have been plenty of stories where slaves from different plantations found each other after emancipation and then moved together for another life. A prime example of this was Booker Washington, who's real mother got together with a man from a nearby plantation and moved to West Virginia.

Maybe broken families are a fixture in your family, but I know they aren't for mine and for folks I knew growing up and even today, and distant census reports would say the same as well. Starting in the 70's, a majority of black men remained single, and only until the late 60's was there a majority of children born unto single parents. Common knowledge would attest to this, because I know for the longest in the South, where most blacks have and continue to live, that didn't fly. If you got someone pregnant, you had better married the girl. Most of the time if it was a single parent family, it was because one of the parents had died, most likely the man.

To think that black people stayed single through American history after Emancipation is very unrealistic, considering the tightly held values in American society pre-1950's. Blacks did indeed assimilate alot of the values and beliefs that affect us even today, which is why Christianity is a stronghold within the black community even today. Most everyone I know had connections to the black church, hence it's not unrealistic to think that would help to mend the family bonds that were broken by slavery.

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M2
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Wed Mar-06-02 11:04 AM

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41. "RE: During Slave Times..."
In response to Reply # 35


          

>maybe not during slavery, but once
>slavery was out black people
>were marrying, and were joining
>together in families. There
>have been plenty of stories
>where slaves from different plantations
>found each other after emancipation
>and then moved together for
>another life. A prime
>example of this was Booker
>Washington, who's real mother got
>together with a man from
>a nearby plantation and moved
>to West Virginia.

A couple of examples don't make the rule.......

>Maybe broken families are a fixture
>in your family, but I
>know they aren't for mine
>and for folks I knew
>growing up and even today,
>and distant census reports would
>say the same as well.

Like I said, the Census reports could be/are likely skewed.

Not all Blacks live in the South and even if they did, it doesn't mean Single parent homes wouldn't occur. Like I said, talk to people who were born into Single parent homes in the last 30 years and ask them if their parents were born into the same situation.....a lot of people are continuing/breaking the single parent cycle, not starting it.

It's nice that around you most people had two parents, but that's not the case for lot of other communities...like I said, the patterns started long ago, they aren't new. Just talk to people who were born into single parent homes in the last 30-40 years.

Not to insult your faith, but I don't think the presence of a church in someone's life community will automatically decrease the number of teenage/single parent pregnancies, teenage pregnancy rates are typically higher in Bible Belt states.

http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/teen_preg_stats.html

Alabama, Georgia, Kentucky, North Carolina, Mississippi & Tennesee ALL have higher pregnancy rates then New York, Connecticut, Massachusets, Pennsylvania, & Maryland.....almost double in most cases.

There is a reason for the difference and it isn't rates of teen sex.




Peace,





M2




The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Expertise
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Thu Mar-07-02 09:47 AM

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60. "The Truth."
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

>>maybe not during slavery, but once
>>slavery was out black people
>>were marrying, and were joining
>>together in families. There
>>have been plenty of stories
>>where slaves from different plantations
>>found each other after emancipation
>>and then moved together for
>>another life. A prime
>>example of this was Booker
>>Washington, who's real mother got
>>together with a man from
>>a nearby plantation and moved
>>to West Virginia.
>
>A couple of examples don't make
>the rule.......

It's not just a "few" examples, there is plenty of literature that describes how blacks created families and lived together after slavery.

>Like I said, the Census reports
>could be/are likely skewed.

And your proof is?

>Not all Blacks live in the
>South and even if they
>did, it doesn't mean Single
>parent homes wouldn't occur.

I didn't say either one of these. I said a majority of blacks live in the South, which they do and always have. I never said there weren't black single parent homes. I was implying that there weren't as many as most people think pre-1960, nor was there a majority like today.

Like
>I said, talk to people
>who were born into Single
>parent homes in the last
>30 years and ask them
>if their parents were born
>into the same situation.....a lot
>of people are continuing/breaking the
>single parent cycle, not starting
>it.

But why ask them and not the married ones? Isn't that a little one-sided?

Besides, simply going off of mere hearsay based on time periods that were over 50 years ago is not going to prove anything, and it definitely isn't going to trump actual statistics that were made at that time and are going to be more valid. Does Census statistics have numbers right on the money? No. But that doesn't mean they are going to be that far off either.

A concentration of black people live in the Southeastern United States, even today:

http://www.census.gov/geo/www/mapGallery/images/black.jpg

And the Census Bureau reported for African-American History Month that 54% of Black people live in the South.

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/2002/cb02ff01.html

>Not to insult your faith, but
>I don't think the presence
>of a church in someone's
>life community will automatically decrease
>the number of teenage/single parent
>pregnancies, teenage pregnancy rates are
>typically higher in Bible Belt
>states.
>http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/teen_preg_stats.html
>
>Alabama, Georgia, Kentucky, North Carolina, Mississippi
>& Tennesee ALL have higher
>pregnancy rates then New York,
>Connecticut, Massachusets, Pennsylvania, & Maryland.....almost
>double in most cases.

That's because those states you mentioned are more densely populated than the Southern states, which are larger in size. Hell, New York and Pennsylvania almost outpopulate all 6 of those states put together.

New York + Pennsylvania = 31,257,511 (according to the 2000 Census
Southern States = 33,258,576

So, of course when you're comparing a state like New York, or Pennsylvania, with 31 million people in between both of them, to North Carolina and Georgia, the two biggest Southern states, in which New York's population more than triples each state alone, you're going to find what you want to find.

I continued to look at that website. Found an interesting little ditty:

http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/ib_welfare00.html

Their stats say teenage pregnancies rose sharply in the 60's. Well imagine that.

And they coincide with the Census statistics:

http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0020/table2.html

That state that there was a sharp rise in births out of wedlock in the United States during the 60's, particularly to black people.

No matter how you place it, this so-called "legacy of slavery" lie to explain current trends in single families in the black community is one of the biggest falsehoods out there today and only serves to shame our ancestors while removing the convictions of personal accountability on today's youth in an attempt to blame something else on whitey. It's a shame when black people will freely call their own ancestors who fought for freedom and strived to make a better life for them to live nothing more than dog-like whores. Pathetic.

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M2
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Thu Mar-07-02 12:35 PM

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62. "RE: The Truth."
In response to Reply # 60


          


>It's not just a "few" examples,
>there is plenty of literature
>that describes how blacks created
>families and lived together after
>slavery.

Literature is not always indicative of social patterns.

Particularly when single parent homes were "Taboo" and not as likely to be mentioned.

>>Like I said, the Census reports
>>could be/are likely skewed.
>
>And your proof is?

Having a child out of wedlock was a extreme Taboo at the time, so women OFTEN LIED. Case in point: None of my grandmother's kids show up on census reports as being born out of wedlock.

If you're going to report statistics dealing with people, you have to also take into account any mitigating factors that could effect the accuracy of those statistics.

>>Not all Blacks live in the
>>South and even if they
>>did, it doesn't mean Single
>>parent homes wouldn't occur.
>
>I didn't say either one of
>these. I said a
>majority of blacks live in
>the South, which they do
>and always have. I
>never said there weren't black
>single parent homes. I
>was implying that there weren't
>as many as most people
>think pre-1960, nor was there
>a majority like today.

Like I said, I disagree....people are mostly repeating patterns from the past, that weren't recognized prior to the 60s.

Like I said, My grandmother had 6 kids and all of them were seen as being born within wedlock. I've got relatives in Virginia who did the same thing.

People would pretend the Husband was "In the Army", out of town, died recently, couldn't make it, etc......then people would say that the dude left, died, etc...during the time when the kid was growing up.

Considering the trouble people went through to hide their illegitamate pregnancies, it stands to reason that your stats are skewed.

The level of inaccurracy (IMHO) is the issue for debate, not the fact that it in fact existed. If something is Taboo, people are going to try and hide it.

Otherwise, we wouldn't have closeted gay people.


>Like
>>I said, talk to people
>>who were born into Single
>>parent homes in the last
>>30 years and ask them
>>if their parents were born
>>into the same situation.....a lot
>>of people are continuing/breaking the
>>single parent cycle, not starting
>>it.
>
>But why ask them and not
>the married ones? Isn't
>that a little one-sided?

Okay fine, ask the married one.

>Besides, simply going off of mere
>hearsay based on time periods
>that were over 50 years
>ago is not going to
>prove anything, and it definitely
>isn't going to trump actual
>statistics that were made at
>that time and are going
>to be more valid.
>Does Census statistics have numbers
>right on the money?
>No. But that doesn't
>mean they are going to
>be that far off either.

Sure they're fine, if you ignore obvious attempts by people to throw the stats off.

You think a mother in the 1950s with an illegitamate kid is going to admitt that she had the kid out of wedlock?


>
>A concentration of black people live
>in the Southeastern United States,
>even today:
>
>http://www.census.gov/geo/www/mapGallery/images/black.jpg
>
>And the Census Bureau reported for
>African-American History Month that 54%
>of Black people live in
>the South.
>
>http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/2002/cb02ff01.html

Fine I was off on that one.......

>>Not to insult your faith, but
>>I don't think the presence
>>of a church in someone's
>>life community will automatically decrease
>>the number of teenage/single parent
>>pregnancies, teenage pregnancy rates are
>>typically higher in Bible Belt
>>states.
>>http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/teen_preg_stats.html
>>
>>Alabama, Georgia, Kentucky, North Carolina, Mississippi
>>& Tennesee ALL have higher
>>pregnancy rates then New York,
>>Connecticut, Massachusets, Pennsylvania, & Maryland.....almost
>>double in most cases.
>
>That's because those states you mentioned
>are more densely populated than
>the Southern states, which are
>larger in size. Hell,
>New York and Pennsylvania almost
>outpopulate all 6 of those
>states put together.
>
>New York + Pennsylvania = 31,257,511
>(according to the 2000 Census
>
>Southern States = 33,258,576

What the hell are you talking about?

I was talking about pregnancy rates, not total numbers.

Southern (Bible-Belt) states have MUCH higher pregnancy rates, I.e. percentages of teens getting pregnant, then the North does.

AND, if you think about just according to your charges of "Liberalism & Feminism" causing the rise in teenage pregnancy rates, the opposite should be true.

Kids in Northern states are less likely to attend church, live closer together, have parents with more liberal attitudes, more likely to have two parents that work, divorced parents, etc. In other words, all the "liberal & feminist" things you blame for the rise in teenage pregnancy are more prevalent in the North then the South....

.....yet Southern teenagers are popping out kids at almost double the rate of Northern Counterparts, despite living in an environment that is less conducive to teenage pregnancy.

Obviously, the whole issue is a bit more complicated then rising rates of "liberalism and feminism"






>So, of course when you're comparing
>a state like New York,
>or Pennsylvania, with 31 million
>people in between both of
>them, to North Carolina and
>Georgia, the two biggest Southern
>states, in which New York's
>population more than triples each
>state alone, you're going to
>find what you want to
>find.

*Chuckles* Couldn't I say the same about you with regards to slavery not affecting Black family development?


>I continued to look at that
>website. Found an interesting
>little ditty:
>
>http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/ib_welfare00.html
>
>Their stats say teenage pregnancies rose
>sharply in the 60's.
>Well imagine that.
>
>And they coincide with the Census
>statistics:
>
>http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0020/table2.html
>
>That state that there was a
>sharp rise in births out
>of wedlock in the United
>States during the 60's, particularly
>to black people.

Which doesn't mean that the Black family wasn't screwed up because of slavery before the 60's.

Which was the point I was trying to make.....

.....When you have the Baby Boom repeating the patterns of *some* of their parents, you're going to have an increase in teenage pregnancy, there were other factors at work...yes, but coming from messed up families was definitely one of them.

>No matter how you place it,
>this so-called "legacy of slavery"
>lie to explain current trends
>in single families in the
>black community is one of
>the biggest falsehoods out there
>today and only serves to
>shame our ancestors while removing
>the convictions of personal accountability
>on today's youth in an
>attempt to blame something else
>on whitey. It's a
>shame when black people will
>freely call their own ancestors
>who fought for freedom and
>strived to make a better
>life for them to live
>nothing more than dog-like whores.
> Pathetic.

Um no, what's actually happening is like you want to place your heads in the sand and act as if slavery "wasn't so bad" and more or less explain away every negative effect that slavery, jim crow and racism has had on the Black community, becuase you simply can't deal with it.





Peace,






M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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Expertise
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Thu Mar-07-02 02:45 PM

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70. "RE: The Truth."
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

>Literature is not always indicative of
>social patterns.
>Particularly when single parent homes were
>"Taboo" and not as likely
>to be mentioned.

If single parent homes were taboo, and I'm not disagreeing that they weren't, then wouldn't that be indictive of white households as well as black? And since you're claiming that black households were misrepresented, the notion of white households being misrepresented could mean what households missed/lied altogether is not representative of a legacy of slavery?

That is, unless you're saying white people were more honest than black people.

>Having a child out of wedlock
>was a extreme Taboo at
>the time, so women OFTEN
>LIED. Case in point: None
>of my grandmother's kids show
>up on census reports as
>being born out of wedlock.

But once again, that's YOUR grandmother. And your grandmother does not create a legitimate sample of all blacks in the United States.

Also, until the 80's or so they didn't do statistical surveys on households; they did what the Census was supposed to do, and that was count the people in the house, ask if those are your children, and are you married. Period.

>If you're going to report statistics
>dealing with people, you have
>to also take into account
>any mitigating factors that could
>effect the accuracy of those
>statistics.

The question is not whether or not the Census was correct right up to the number. The question is whether the Census was approximately correct in it's findings. In the early 1930's, the Census reported only 31% of births out of wedlock. We can dispute that to be a little more, or a little less, say 33%. But are we suppose to incline that the Census was THAT off by, say, 20 to 30%? I don't think so.

Also, if they were off, as you say, then why all of a sudden would they rise up so sharply between 65-69? Did they come up with new technology to count and survey people between the early 60's, in which premarital black births were the lowest since the early 50's, and the late 60's? I don't think so.

Besides, all of this is moot. You got to come up with more than simple hearsay to challenge statistics. You haven't brought up any other facts other than your grandmama and your friends to dispute Census findings. Come up with something more concrete.

>>>Not to insult your faith, but
>>>I don't think the presence
>>>of a church in someone's
>>>life community will automatically decrease
>>>the number of teenage/single parent
>>>pregnancies, teenage pregnancy rates are
>>>typically higher in Bible Belt
>>>states.
>>>http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/teen_preg_stats.html
>>>
>>>Alabama, Georgia, Kentucky, North Carolina, Mississippi
>>>& Tennesee ALL have higher
>>>pregnancy rates then New York,
>>>Connecticut, Massachusets, Pennsylvania, & Maryland.....almost
>>>double in most cases.
>>
>>That's because those states you mentioned
>>are more densely populated than
>>the Southern states, which are
>>larger in size. Hell,
>>New York and Pennsylvania almost
>>outpopulate all 6 of those
>>states put together.
>>
>>New York + Pennsylvania = 31,257,511
>>(according to the 2000 Census
>>
>>Southern States = 33,258,576
>
>What the hell are you talking
>about?
>
>I was talking about pregnancy rates,
>not total numbers.
>Southern (Bible-Belt) states have MUCH higher
>pregnancy rates, I.e. percentages of
>teens getting pregnant, then the
>North does.

The total population does come into the picture here, because highly populated states are percentage-wise, going to have the edge over lower populated ones in statistics. You can't honestly compare New York to North Carolina, when New York's population more than doubles North Carolina's, and think you're going to come up with a proper analysis on teenage pregnancy rates. A teenager who gets pregnant in North Carolina is going to count way more on the pregnancy rate than a teenager in New York, because there are way less people in NC than in New York.

>AND, if you think about
>just according to your charges
>of "Liberalism & Feminism" causing
>the rise in teenage pregnancy
>rates, the opposite should be
>true.

No, because the 60's affected every part of the nation, not just the North. There were reforms in every part of the country, including social values and norms.

>>I continued to look at that
>>website. Found an interesting
>>little ditty:
>>
>>http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/ib_welfare00.html
>>
>>Their stats say teenage pregnancies rose
>>sharply in the 60's.
>>Well imagine that.
>>
>>And they coincide with the Census
>>statistics:
>>
>>http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0020/table2.html
>>
>>That state that there was a
>>sharp rise in births out
>>of wedlock in the United
>>States during the 60's, particularly
>>to black people.

>Which doesn't mean that the
>Black family wasn't screwed up
>because of slavery before the
>60's.

So what does it prove then? For some reason, we can use the website YOU provided statistics from, yet when they give statistics stating a historical rise in teenage pregnancy, we can't use them? That makes no sense.

>Which was the point I was
>trying to make.....
>.....When you have the Baby Boom
>repeating the patterns of *some*
>of their parents, you're going
>to have an increase in
>teenage pregnancy, there were other
>factors at work...yes, but coming
>from messed up families was
>definitely one of them.

But even then, if it was a simple matter of decendants repeating the patterns of some of their ancestors, then logic would dictate that the rise of premarital births would have been steady. They weren't. They rose very sharply in the 60's.

>>No matter how you place it,
>>this so-called "legacy of slavery"
>>lie to explain current trends
>>in single families in the
>>black community is one of
>>the biggest falsehoods out there
>>today and only serves to
>>shame our ancestors while removing
>>the convictions of personal accountability
>>on today's youth in an
>>attempt to blame something else
>>on whitey. It's a
>>shame when black people will
>>freely call their own ancestors
>>who fought for freedom and
>>strived to make a better
>>life for them to live
>>nothing more than dog-like whores.
>> Pathetic.
>Um no, what's actually happening is
>like you want to place
>your heads in the sand
>and act as if slavery
>"wasn't so bad" and more
>or less explain away every
>negative effect that slavery, jim
>crow and racism has had
>on the Black community, becuase
>you simply can't deal with
>it.

Since when have I ever said "Slavery wasn't so bad"??

I'm not trying to explain away everything, the facts are the facts. The facts are that premarital pregnancies in black families were steady until the 1960's, and then they rose sharply. Any statistics or studies done on this topic will say the exact same thing, and until someone can actually counter those findings, they are indeed the prevailing logic. The problem is that it simply counters what you and others believe on this topic, and, through people who had no reason to lie or make up false evidence that would make black families of the past look good, it destroys the myth of the breakup of black families due to the "legacy of slavery".

Black people post-emancipation weren't simple-minded people who couldn't control their libidos. And it's a sad testimony today that their own decendants would make attempts to characterize them as two steps from acting as farm animals.

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M2
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10072 posts
Thu Mar-07-02 04:47 PM

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73. "RE: The Truth."
In response to Reply # 70


          

>>Literature is not always indicative of
>>social patterns.
>>Particularly when single parent homes were
>>"Taboo" and not as likely
>>to be mentioned.
>
>If single parent homes were taboo,
>and I'm not disagreeing that
>they weren't, then wouldn't that
>be indictive of white households
>as well as black?
>And since you're claiming that
>black households were misrepresented, the
>notion of white households being
>misrepresented could mean what households
>missed/lied altogether is not representative
>of a legacy of slavery?

It would be, but during this time Blacks had a higher rate of children out of wedlock, and big part of that was the legacy of slavery.


>That is, unless you're saying white
>people were more honest than
>black people.

I'm not.......read above.

>>Having a child out of wedlock
>>was a extreme Taboo at
>>the time, so women OFTEN
>>LIED. Case in point: None
>>of my grandmother's kids show
>>up on census reports as
>>being born out of wedlock.
>
>But once again, that's YOUR grandmother.
> And your grandmother does
>not create a legitimate sample
>of all blacks in the
>United States.

Neither do the people in the literature you mentioned.

In any event, I'm merely pointing out that my grandmother was merely following a pattern that other women did. It was people did at that time to hid the fact that had kids out of wedlock.

Just like I could say that I know someone who calls the father of their illegitamate kid their "Baby Daddy", it's an example of someone following a larger trend.



>Also, until the 80's or so
>they didn't do statistical surveys
>on households; they did what
>the Census was supposed to
>do, and that was count
>the people in the house,
>ask if those are your
>children, and are you married.
> Period.

Meaning that someone could say: "Yes these are my kids and yes I'm married" even if they weren't.


After all, I don't think the census takers asked to see your marriage license and talk to the minister/rabbi/imam/justice of the peace who married you.

The fact that they didn't do "statistical surveys" is irrelevant......especially since asking if you have kids and if you're married is in fact a statistical survey.
>>If you're going to report statistics
>>dealing with people, you have
>>to also take into account
>>any mitigating factors that could
>>effect the accuracy of those
>>statistics.
>
>The question is not whether or
>not the Census was correct
>right up to the number.
> The question is whether
>the Census was approximately correct
>in it's findings. In
>the early 1930's, the Census
>reported only 31% of births
>out of wedlock. We
>can dispute that to be
>a little more, or a
>little less, say 33%.
>But are we suppose to
>incline that the Census was
>THAT off by, say, 20
>to 30%? I don't
>think so.

31% was the aggregate rate for all Americans.....

In an Era where Blacks were undoubtedly undercounted.

In any Era where people would lie because they wanted to protect themselves (and their kids) from the stigma.

So the Black out of wedlock rate was probably a bit higher, let's say 45%...which is fairly significant, now let's say that the census was off by 10% that's still an actual rate of nearly 50%.......

....with the onset of baby boom children getting to the age to have children......and children having a tendency to follow the pattern of their kids...it's going to increase the out of wedlock rate, liberalism and feminism aside.

I'm not disputing the rate decreased, I'm merely saying that it has roots that go way back to slavery....moreso then it just being a problem dealing with liberalism and feminism.......

....two things (particularly the latter) that really have nothing to do with Black people.



>Also, if they were off, as
>you say, then why all
>of a sudden would they
>rise up so sharply between
>65-69? Did they come
>up with new technology to
>count and survey people between
>the early 60's, in which
>premarital black births were the
>lowest since the early 50's,
>and the late 60's?
>I don't think so.

It couldn't be because social attitudes relaxed and people stopped lying could it? It couldn't be because that's when members of the baby boom started to get old enough to have kids could it?

Also: The sexual revolution of the 60s was accompanied by the invention of the Birth Control pill, I'm sure you have room for that somewhere in your hypothesis.

>Besides, all of this is moot.
> You got to come
>up with more than simple
>hearsay to challenge statistics.
>You haven't brought up any
>other facts other than your
>grandmama and your friends to
>dispute Census findings. Come
>up with something more concrete.

I'm merely saying that the census was inaccurate and the roots of the current high rates of teenage pregnancy go back to slavery aren't just a function of "liberalism and feminism" to blame "liberalism and feminism" because they happen to coincide with the rise in teenage pregnancies, is like blaming it on:

The increased use of Transistors
Increased number of Asian immigrants
Increased usage of Color TV sets and any number of other things that occured during that time.


>>>New York + Pennsylvania = 31,257,511
>>>(according to the 2000 Census
>>>
>>>Southern States = 33,258,576
>>
>>What the hell are you talking
>>about?
>>
>>I was talking about pregnancy rates,
>>not total numbers.
>>Southern (Bible-Belt) states have MUCH higher
>>pregnancy rates, I.e. percentages of
>>teens getting pregnant, then the
>>North does.
>
>The total population does come into
>the picture here, because highly
>populated states are percentage-wise, going
>to have the edge over
>lower populated ones in statistics.
> You can't honestly compare
>New York to North Carolina,
>when New York's population more
>than doubles North Carolina's, and
>think you're going to come
>up with a proper analysis
>on teenage pregnancy rates.
>A teenager who gets pregnant
>in North Carolina is going
>to count way more on
>the pregnancy rate than a
>teenager in New York, because
>there are way less people
>in NC than in New
>York.

You failed Math didn't you? In fact, I bet you failed it twice.

*Laughs*

It's a RATE Expertise, not a total number. The stats indicate pregnancies per 1,000 women aged 15-19, SO a women in NC DOES NOT count more then one in NY. That's why it's expressed as a rate, so you can get a valid statistical comparison between states.

That's why they discuss the RATE of pregnancies, and not the total number, because the populations are different.

That's why the NUMBER of pregnancies is higher for the Northern States, but the rate is lower.

Secondly, your hypothesis doesn't hold when faced with the fact that States like Maine (1.2 Million) and Connecticut (3.4 Million), Masschusets (6.3 Million) and Vermont (688,827 Million) which all have lower populations AMD birth rates then States like GA (8.2 Million), NC (8.05 Million) , Texas (20.8 Million) & Florida (15.9 Million)....






>>AND, if you think about
>>just according to your charges
>>of "Liberalism & Feminism" causing
>>the rise in teenage pregnancy
>>rates, the opposite should be
>>true.
>
>No, because the 60's affected every
>part of the nation, not
>just the North. There
>were reforms in every part
>of the country, including social
>values and norms.

True, but it affected the south less....and it doesn't explain why out of wedlock pregnancies and teenage pregnancies are more likely to happen down south.


>>>I continued to look at that
>>>website. Found an interesting
>>>little ditty:
>>>
>>>http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/ib_welfare00.html
>>>
>>>Their stats say teenage pregnancies rose
>>>sharply in the 60's.
>>>Well imagine that.
>>>
>>>And they coincide with the Census
>>>statistics:
>>>
>>>http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0020/table2.html
>>>
>>>That state that there was a
>>>sharp rise in births out
>>>of wedlock in the United
>>>States during the 60's, particularly
>>>to black people.
>
>>Which doesn't mean that the
>>Black family wasn't screwed up
>>because of slavery before the
>>60's.
>
>So what does it prove then?
> For some reason, we
>can use the website YOU
>provided statistics from, yet when
>they give statistics stating a
>historical rise in teenage pregnancy,
>we can't use them?
>That makes no sense.

I never said we couldn't use them, I just said they don't tell the whole story and are indicative of trends that started long before the 60s.

Are you just stupid or are you being intentionally obstinate?


>>Which was the point I was
>>trying to make
.....
>>.....When you have the Baby Boom
>>repeating the patterns of *some*
>>of their parents, you're going
>>to have an increase in
>>teenage pregnancy, there were other
>>factors at work...yes, but coming
>>from messed up families was
>>definitely one of them.
>
>But even then, if it was
>a simple matter of decendants
>repeating the patterns of some
>of their ancestors, then logic
>would dictate that the rise
>of premarital births would have
>been steady. They weren't.
> They rose very sharply
>in the 60's.

Baby Boom.......sharp rise in people able to have kids.

I never said changing social attitudes are partially to Blame, but since the numbers aren't as extreme for Whites, there is obviously something else at work.
>Since when have I ever said
>"Slavery wasn't so bad"??

You did when you try an pretend that it had no effect on Black families.

>I'm not trying to explain away
>everything, the facts are the
>facts. The facts are
>that premarital pregnancies in black
>families were steady until the
>1960's, and then they rose
>sharply. Any statistics or
>studies done on this topic
>will say the exact same
>thing, and until someone can
>actually counter those findings, they
>are indeed the prevailing logic.
> The problem is that
>it simply counters what you
>and others believe on this
>topic, and, through people who
>had no reason to lie
>or make up false evidence
>that would make black families
>of the past look good,
>it destroys the myth of
>the breakup of black families
>due to the "legacy of
>slavery".

Yes, that's what I'm doing, I simply want to bad mouth Blacks of the past.......curses foiled again by your supreme intelligence.

I'll get you next time.

Fact remains, slavery had a profound influence on the Black family and they didn't emerge from it prepared to go and start perfect Ozzie and Harriet families, and you ignoring that fact discounts the decades of dysfunction Blacks families have been dealing with since the end of the civil war AND does absolutely NOTHING to address, fix, or help correct this problem.

It would be one thing if you were willing to at least acknowledge the effects of slavery on families and were debating the magnitude of the effects, but the fact that won't even acknowledge indicates a severe case of denial on your part.....

.......as if Black families were or less perfect until those damn women decided they wanted equal rights.


>Black people post-emancipation weren't simple-minded people
>who couldn't control their libidos.
> And it's a sad
>testimony today that their own
>decendants would make attempts to
>characterize them as two steps
>from acting as farm animals.
>

Who said anything like farm animals? By that logic that's what you're calling the Blacks of today.



Peace,







M2


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greg_soundz
Charter member
1402 posts
Wed Mar-06-02 12:41 PM

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48. "RE: During Slave Times..."
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

>maybe not during slavery, but once
>slavery was out black people
>were marrying, and were joining
>together in families. There
>have been plenty of stories
>where slaves from different plantations
>found each other after emancipation
>and then moved together for
>another life.

I think your perspective is a little too idealistic. I've been reading DuBois' The Souls of Black Folk recently and he talks about the cycle that was created by the evils of slavery. Yes it is true that many slaves did marry post-Emancipation but many did not stay together and the woman was left with a bunch of kids. Additionally you had those men that would travel all around the South sleeping with women in whatever town they called home at that time. This type of behavior is directly related to the destruction of the so-called Black family and Black sexuality during slavery. Today we see this behavior continue in our modern day paved plantations.

think on this.

-soundz

--------------------------------------------------
The revolution is upon us!

"But Moses said to him...Would that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit on them!"
Numbers 11:29

"It's imagery. They use their ability to create images, and then use these images that they've created to mislead people. To confuse the people and make the people accept wrong as right and reject right as wrong. Make the people actually think that the criminal is the victim and the victim is the criminal"

Malcolm X on the American Media and Propaganda
Feb, 16 1965 Rochester, NY

-----------------------------------
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Expertise
Charter member
37848 posts
Thu Mar-07-02 09:50 AM

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61. "RE: During Slave Times..."
In response to Reply # 48


  

          

>I think your perspective is a
>little too idealistic. I've been
>reading DuBois' The Souls of
>Black Folk recently and he
>talks about the cycle that
>was created by the evils
>of slavery. Yes it is
>true that many slaves did
>marry post-Emancipation but many did
>not stay together and the
>woman was left with a
>bunch of kids. Additionally you
>had those men that would
>travel all around the South
>sleeping with women in whatever
>town they called home at
>that time. This type of
>behavior is directly related to
>the destruction of the so-called
>Black family and Black sexuality
>during slavery. Today we see
>this behavior continue in our
>modern day paved plantations.

Uh, I'm supposed to get my information from a assimilationist that wanted blacks to act like European Socialists and spent very little time in the South among his own people?

Get a grip.

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Cre8
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17379 posts
Wed Mar-06-02 07:59 AM

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23. "Post #21"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

I have seen many men and boys raised in two parent homes and become non or less productive in society as men raised in 1 parent homes.

Not only is my sons father one example, but so is my father.
He was raised in a two parent home, yet has three different kids by three different women, and didn't really come into my life until age 4 and my sisters at age 13, and thats based on week-end visits. If it had not been for the 8 years between my lil brother and us, he might not have been around as much for him either.

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Navie
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803 posts
Wed Mar-06-02 06:20 AM

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11. "RE: Love Their Sons, Raise their Daughters"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I've heard this for sure - but specifically that Black women love their sons and raise their daughters - guess I got it wrong. Anyway, it's true. I have a friend whose mother practiced this to a fault - the sons had trouble w/ drugs and still live w/ mommy - the daughters were discouraged from following their dreams tho they defied her on that point (successful artists in their youth - one a singer the other a dancer) and were encouraged to raise families of their own. These women ended up not only raising their own kids later but also their brothers' variously mothered kids.

My own mother loves her first son more than any of the rest of us (she'd never admit that) - but I wouldn't say she didn't raise the boys - we were all pretty much raised the same. I do think parents in general can play favorites. I think they can expect the worst from either gender based on today's society. I also think they can depend on a certain gender to "do right" - take care of them when they get old, graduate, make money, etc. Their own hang-ups push this favoritism probably more often in favor of boys for any number of reasons: not to break their spirit, cuz you can't hit a grown-ass man (some boys under 18 are mad big & tall), cuz a girl is the one who has to carry a baby, etc. Expectations don't breed responsibility tho - the sad part is a parent's hang-ups can turn into the kid's hang-ups.

-----------------------------------
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LexM
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28342 posts
Wed Mar-06-02 08:04 AM

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24. "this needs to be taken care of"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

>Their own hang-ups push this
>favoritism probably more often in
>favor of boys for any
>number of reasons: not to
>break their spirit, cuz you
>can't hit a grown-ass man
>(some boys under 18 are
>mad big & tall),


VERY early.



_________________________________________________________
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MISSMOE
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Wed Mar-06-02 06:21 AM

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12. "you have a point..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i am a fraternal twin and what you have said is exactly the case between my twin brother and i. although neither of us have any children, he was nurtured while i was expected to just do certain things. now that we are older (24), i've gone out on my own. moved from Ny to Fl, and now to Md in the past 5 yrs while he has remained at home. He hasn't held a steady job or had any responsibility. instead of pushing to be more responsible. it's just accepted that he's just the way he his b/c of being sheltered.



MissMoe--manifesting true fear in folks at jhu s of m since 1999!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
§ß§OKP Jazzy Broads§ß§

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country girl-- cee-lo
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Cre8
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17379 posts
Wed Mar-06-02 06:31 AM

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14. "Sad Truth"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

This has occured with my mother and her siblings and I also see it in my childs father.

My mom has six siblings, making 3 girls and three boys. All the men are struggling heavely, only one male graduated highschool. None are in college, on is on drugs and the other two no one is sure about. One uncle I haven't seen since age 8 and no one is sure he's even alive. All three have children they barely or don't care for. None have a stable home or life for that matter.
Also one is in jail.

As for my mom and her sisters, two sisters own their own homes, have cars, steady jobs, good credit, have raised their children as well as others, and provide for their mother and father if needed. One sister(the oldest) was mentally ill and died of breast cancer.

And anytime I talk to my aunt the first thing she says is that my grandmother loved her sons and raised her daughters, and my mother agrees.

I'll be back in sec.

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PuertoRicanJudo
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2963 posts
Wed Mar-06-02 06:36 AM

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15. "RE: Love Their Sons, Raise their Daughters"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Just wanted to add that Jawanza Kunjufu writes briefly about this in "Countering the Conspiracy to Destroy Black Boys".

"This is some BULLSHIT" (c) me at Central Booking

  

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Solitayre
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8114 posts
Wed Mar-06-02 07:26 AM

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20. "Fortitude, Brotherhood & Honor..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I must say I agree with the article...
But RELUCTANTLY so...
I am a living example of how this is true...

Brother b4 said it best...
A woman cant teach a boy how to be a man.

_____________________________________________
DOWNLOAD THE HELLO EP Spit by yours truly!
http://www.zshare.net/download/80520753aae60df7/
Just a PSA

  

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Cre8
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Wed Mar-06-02 07:51 AM

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21. "Another sad thing"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

is that I don't think the parents ever realize what their doing to their sons by sheltering them. The reason for saying parents and not mothers is that I see the same characteristics in boys from two parent homes. My sons father is a prime example and fits much of the statisical category, yet was raised with both parents at home and currently lives with them. He's parents (imparticularly mother) do not help he's situation because they continue to cater to his needs or pacify him and as soon as they don't he acts out like a child.
What I find strange is that he's older half brother (same father) is a provider and family man, yet he was raised in a single parent home.







Food/Drink PlayersCookbook Info:
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DEADLINE: November 22, 2006
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LexM
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Wed Mar-06-02 08:46 AM

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26. "most detrimental to ANY child"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Is not knowing/understanding him or her. Children are people, not dress patterns. They are individual people with different needs, and every formula is not going to work for every child.

There are some children who need to be sheltered and ushered into the world slowly...others will implode if they're not given the chance to get out there and do their thing.

Bottom line, though, seems to be consistency. If you're going to do something with one child, do it with all of them. More than likely, the boys in situations like that may keep fucking up because they want someone to care enough to correct them like their sisters are corrected. If you care enough to call all of them on their mistakes, then more than likely all of them will grow up to be responsible, caring, mature adults.


_________________________________________________________
"even isis knew heartbreak..."

need a hero? http://www.ghettosake.com
wanna say hi? AIM: LadyDay78

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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Monox
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121 posts
Wed Mar-06-02 09:00 AM

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30. "RE: Love Their Sons, Raise their Daughters"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I believe that there is truth to this. However, I think that it is a result of single parenting. It makes since to me that there is a role of man and woman in the house in regards to the children:

1. The Mothers role is to "love and comfort" the son while training the daughter to be a woman.

2. The Fathers role is to "love and comfort" the daughter while training the son to be a man.

So in house holds where the father is the single parent there is an imbalance. The daughter will be loved but untrained. The son will be trained but not "loved".

We all know that today most single parent homes are headed by women. That results in the balance of sons being "loved" while the daughters are being "raised".

I believe that we need both and us men need to start trying to break this cycle by raising our children. Our children need much more than money.

One,
Monox

  

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greg_soundz
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Wed Mar-06-02 09:02 AM

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31. "RE: Love Their Sons, Raise their Daughters"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

This whole issues seriously troubles me.

I keep reading responses saying in one way or another that "a woman can't raise a boy to be a man". I've heard this all my life and accepted it as fact and I really don't know why. One of the main problems with this line of thinking is the definition of what is and what isn't "a man". Here in the US our definition or example of being a man comes from the patriachal slant perpetuated by the white male ruling class (a class that oppresses the entire world on a regular basis).

In the African American community we are continuosly talking about the plight of the Black male as if the Black male is the saviour of the race. Why do we think that if all of our men weren't in jail, on drugs, etc, we will finally overcome? This also implies that the strength of the Black woman who has carried us and still is carrying us thus far was merely an accident or soley a result of oppression rather than the manifestation of her strength and force as a human being. The logic that demeans and undermines a woman's ability to raise a man is filled with the ideologies of the white male ruling class.

I believe that in the African American community we need to redefine what it actually means to be a man and that the only role we play is that of a human being not male/female. While we have continually tried to preach the good news of the man being the head of the house, history shows us that en masse Black men have never been the head of the household or at least never been able to. Since the times of slavery families were torn apart and strong Black men were sold for higher prices or loaned out for various forms of labor. The Black man has always been seen as a threat to the white man so he suppresses him on every angle. This way of life of course spilled into familial relations after emancipation and has become a sickening way of life following the same chain of events even into this century. Because we know this to be true why don't we find ways to encourage Black women to raise Black men into whole persons? Whether we like it or not Black women will continue to be the ones raising our boys. I also urge everyone in the Black community to re-think the concept of sex roles and redefine them for yourselves. Please don't swallow then regurgitate the propaganda of the ruling class and call it your own. We need our boys and girls to be raised into whole human beings not "men" or "women".

think on this.

-soundz

--------------------------------------------------
The revolution is upon us!

"But Moses said to him...Would that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit on them!"
Numbers 11:29

"It's imagery. They use their ability to create images, and then use these images that they've created to mislead people. To confuse the people and make the people accept wrong as right and reject right as wrong. Make the people actually think that the criminal is the victim and the victim is the criminal"

Malcolm X on the American Media and Propaganda
Feb, 16 1965 Rochester, NY

-----------------------------------
"much obliged" - Bubs

follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/soundz714

  

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jazzboy00
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Wed Mar-06-02 10:01 AM

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32. "RE: Love Their Sons, Raise their Daughters"
In response to Reply # 31


          

"Why do we think that if all of our men weren't in jail, on drugs, etc, we will finally overcome?"

black males who are in jail,on drugs, etc. are not in control. how can a person who is not in control define his/her destiny?? when a large part of the community cannot define its destiny the community as a whole suffers, regardless of how hard the other half tries to compensate. "This also implies that the strength of the Black woman who has carried us and still is carrying us thus far was merely an accident or soley a result of oppression rather than the manifestation of her strength and force as a human being. The logic that demeans and undermines a woman's ability to raise a man is filled with the ideologies of the white male ruling class."
many black communities are like a track star trying to run with one leg and you seem to be saying that because some people want two legs that we are demeaning the contributions of the one leg we already have. garbage! "Because we know this to be true why don't we find ways to encourage Black women to raise Black men into whole persons? Whether we like it or not Black women will continue to be the ones raising our boys." instead of getting both legs together and running this race right you suggest we should redifine "running" what the hell!!! "Because we know this to be true why don't we find ways to encourage Black women to raise Black men into whole persons? Whether we like it or not Black women will continue to be the ones raising our boys."
this is a defeatist attitude and supports racsist ideology more than anything else.

  

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knumskul
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1038 posts
Wed Mar-06-02 11:06 AM

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42. "umm"
In response to Reply # 32


          

>black males who are in jail,on drugs, etc. are not in control.

why aren't they in control?

y'all *really* think" that you're tricking somebody into something don't you? what you don't realize is that most women decide within the first 5 minutes of meeting a dude whether or not they'll sleep with him. all your "game" is merely entertainment. - H

  

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greg_soundz
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Wed Mar-06-02 12:19 PM

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47. "RE: Love Their Sons, Raise their Daughters"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

>black males who are in jail,on
>drugs, etc. are not in
>control. how can a person
>who is not in control
>define his/her destiny?? when
>a large part of the
>community cannot define its destiny
>the community as a whole
>suffers, regardless of how hard
>the other half tries to
>compensate.

What exactly do you mean by "not in control". Living in America no one is in control unless you're rich, white, and male---and then only a select few. The point to my critique is not about who's in control. The issue that I attack is the notion that if Black men were allowed to "be men" our race would be able to rise up and overcome the world. The problem with this argument in my opinion is the definition of being "a man". Those men who aren't in jail, on drugs, etc, are oppressed oppressors of African American women. Although sistas have continously proven their ability to hold it down in spite of the circumstances and not being in control they are supposed to become subservient and "let men be men". I am highly critical of gender roles because they come from the oppressor and they do not allow human beings to be human beings.

>many black communities are like a
>track star trying to run
>with one leg and you
>seem to be saying that
>because some people want two
>legs that we are demeaning
>the contributions of the one
>leg we already have. garbage!

Okay my statements may appear to imply that I am advocating single parent households across the board. This is however far from my viewpoint. We all know that it takes more that one person to raise a child. Using your track analogy, what we have done in our community in regards to two parent homes is only exercise one leg when we have two. Yes it's true that we need two legs but we need those legs to be equally strong, equally conditioned, and equally trained with equal participation for the race.

>instead of getting both legs
>together and running this race
>right you suggest we should
>redifine "running" what the hell!!!
>this is a defeatist attitude and
>supports racsist ideology more than
>anything else.

Well first lets admit that the whole race is f--ked up and needs to be completely rethought. We have to redefine running as you put it for the reasons that I stated earlier. The homes that do have a "man in the house" are dominated by "the man" and everyone in that house is subordinate to him. This is the way of the ruling class and I think that we should become very suspicious of all practices of a class that is inherently oppressive. By taking on the ideologies of patriarchy into our homes we then oppress ourselves and in effect become like our masters. In the long run this does more damage than good. Sure we may raise our boys to "be men" but what kind of man--like our oppressors?

As far as my statement regarding accepting the fact that women have and always will raise children as a single parent, I don't think that it is a defeatest statement. History since 1619 backs up my statement so I have no problem making it. In addition the psycho-spiritual implications of this deep seeded problem perpetuates the causes of this behavior from generation to generation. The solution I provided is a short term solution or rather a solution for the present. It is my hope, goal, and aim that we will see more 2-parent households BUT how that household is run needs to be rethought and redefined. Maybe that 2-parent household will be 2 women or 2 men vs. the traditional male/female. Additionally we MUST do away with the notion that the father ultimately must raise the boy and the mother must raise the girl. By doing this we are limiting and defining our children in ways that can potentially prevent them from being the greatest thing they can ever truly be---a human being. KRS-One said that "Before you are a race, a religion, or an occupation you are a Human being!" I would add gender to his statement and there you have the challenge of consciousness for us all. Who you are is not what you see, that's just what allows you to get around in the Matrix.

-soundz


--------------------------------------------------
The revolution is upon us!

"But Moses said to him...Would that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit on them!"
Numbers 11:29

"It's imagery. They use their ability to create images, and then use these images that they've created to mislead people. To confuse the people and make the people accept wrong as right and reject right as wrong. Make the people actually think that the criminal is the victim and the victim is the criminal"

Malcolm X on the American Media and Propaganda
Feb, 16 1965 Rochester, NY

-----------------------------------
"much obliged" - Bubs

follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/soundz714

  

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Streezus619
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202 posts
Wed Mar-06-02 10:11 AM

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34. "RE: Love Their Sons, Raise their Daughters"
In response to Reply # 0


          

word...now, what do we do to rectify before we die?

  

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jazzboy00
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Wed Mar-06-02 10:36 AM

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36. "RE: Love Their Sons, Raise their Daughters"
In response to Reply # 34


          

its hard to say, for me personally a lot of the prooblem is a matter of prevention. i know alot of folks who really shouldn't be having kids. starting a family is a massive responsibilty. i believe the a good 70% of the problems in families stem from one person in the couple getting involved with the wrong person and/or the wrong timing.
in the original post there were scenarios where the male was good for nothing but the girl was the one catching hell.
i would like to point out the unless its rape, a female in the U.S. of A can CHOOSE whom she sleeps with and has a relationship with.
one thing i've noticed about women who end up with jackass men is that they keep believeing "he's going to change, things will magically get better" and they ignore red flags till its too late.*
if guy the was good for nothing before you got pregnant he probably will be after the baby is born. CHOICES
then all of a sudden everybody wants someone to blame. a lot of a males aren't ready for responsible relationships and should be left alone. (easier said than done). same goes for females.

i know one girl whos is having a baby with this guy she can't stand(she don't believe in killing babies) but if she knew she wouldn't want to have a baby with him why risk it sleeping with him? its true, alot is easier said than done but folks these are the factors we are dealing with everytime you get the glimmer in your eye.

  

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HashimAbdulKhaliq
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Wed Mar-06-02 11:01 AM

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40. "Its a ILL situation"
In response to Reply # 34


  

          


I have a both a son and a Daughter. After reading this and thinking about it, I'm harder on my son than my daughter. It may be because he's 4 and my daughter is only 1 and a half. I'll prolly be very hard on both of them but I try to keep a nice balance. My wife says I let them both get away with murder but I disagree. I believe in taking the middle course in my affairs....walk softly and carry a big stick. My kids are spoiled with love but they listen to me more than they listen to my wife. So I think I've established something with them.

I pray and I plan to try to maintain my relationship with my children. I feel that its up to me to coach and rear my son to be a man and up to my Wife to teach my daughter how to be a woman BUT!!! At the same time its a team effort for both parent to work hard as heck to help thier children to acheive adulthood. ANother thing thats important is example. My kids follow what I do NOT what I say. They dont wanna goto bed if we are up and they will only eat all thier food if we all as a family eat at the same time. I also see both of them watching me and my wife very closely. My son mimics me better than anyone. So I keep my example in mind.

As far as relationships go I think my relationship between me and my wife will play a big part in that. I want my son to grow up and treat women with respect. I also want both of my children to grow up and be able to choose good mates off the rip. This one of my major fears. Many parents shield thier daughters and let thier sons run free with any women they choose but a guy can be takien off his thing by a woman quicker than a woman by a man if you ask me.

I can keep going but I method will be using the spiritual social building system of Islam and applying it realisticly.....Allot of prayers and gray hairs too.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenship
into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword.

It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind.
And w

  

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the2ndsurvivor
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Wed Mar-06-02 10:39 AM

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37. "starts when they're young"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

And this behavior is present in ALL types of families. It starts when the children are young. Little girls are raised to be ladylike and respectful and to not get into trouble while little boys are left to find out on their own. Go visit someone that has a young son and daughter. The little boy might run around or jump off the bed or do something stupid while playing. What's the response?? Boys will be boys. A little girl is scolded if she has any of that behavior. The boy can go through his school aged years virtually unpunished because its thought that the only way he'll learn to be a man is through experience. The girl is pushed to excel academically and to be well-behaved and to be a homemaker to make her more pleasing to other men. I look at my cousins as an example. The oldest one, a female, is in school now and will graduate in May. Her dad throws fits if she gets a parking ticket or if her grades aren't that great. She has to work to take care of her expenses. Her parents will help her out but she has to do a lot of pleading for it. Her younger brother has been kicked out of the military, fired from two jobs, is a weedhead, and the idiot got his car stolen (the details are suspect). He lives at home and his father bought him a another car to replace the old one. What kind of ish is that?? Parents and extended family should worry less about raising a "man" or a "woman" and concentrate more on teaching a child to be an adult. The other qualities will come when they learn to be and see examples of good darn individuals.

...if I were a superhero, I'd be Had-It-Up-to-Here Woman, sneaking around grocery stores, malls, and amusement parks all over the world. With lightning speed, I'd snatch up bad azz kids and give them three swift licks with my golden switch and vanish into thin air before anyone knew what happened...

Pet Peeve of the Month:

Okay, I'll give it to you. Technically you do meet the requirements to be here. But be considerate. Just because the sign above the express lane in Wal-Mart says "20 items or less" does not mean that you should take your 19 item holding cart to the lane and hold up the rest of us who only want to buy a package of toilet paper.

Look over to your left...yeah, up in the corner. As a suggestion, you may want to take two.

  

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M2
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Wed Mar-06-02 10:52 AM

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39. "Read posts 3 & 4"
In response to Reply # 37


          


Peace,





M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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the2ndsurvivor
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Wed Mar-06-02 11:08 AM

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43. "sons aren't raised"
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

that line sums it up

...if I were a superhero, I'd be Had-It-Up-to-Here Woman, sneaking around grocery stores, malls, and amusement parks all over the world. With lightning speed, I'd snatch up bad azz kids and give them three swift licks with my golden switch and vanish into thin air before anyone knew what happened...

Pet Peeve of the Month:

Okay, I'll give it to you. Technically you do meet the requirements to be here. But be considerate. Just because the sign above the express lane in Wal-Mart says "20 items or less" does not mean that you should take your 19 item holding cart to the lane and hold up the rest of us who only want to buy a package of toilet paper.

Look over to your left...yeah, up in the corner. As a suggestion, you may want to take two.

  

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M2
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10072 posts
Wed Mar-06-02 10:51 AM

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38. "Mother's raising Sons"
In response to Reply # 0


          


Lot's of posts on this, so I thought I respond to them in aggregate.

For one thing, the "love your sons, raise your daughters" pattern exists in plenty of two-parent families as well, I think has more to do with how Blacks are approaching raising their kids, then whether or not the son has a father.

In fact, if the Father is loving his son and raising his daugther, he's making the situation WORSE then if he wasn't there. If he wasn't there, at least the son could look at some of his failures in life and Blame it on the lack of a father, *maybe* he'll use that as motivation to be a better man. If his father IS around, he might just accept his failures as "life" he might think that what he's doing is what being a man is all about.

I know too many sons who were raised by fathers that make excuses for other men that hit their wives or run out on their children, or think that being born with a Y chromosome deems them worthy of respect....as opposed to their actions.

In other words, plenty of young men run from their responsibilities who grew up with a father.

Just a thought......

As for Mother's raising sons, the thought occurs to me, WHO better to teach a son how to be a man, particularly with respect to women. Who else is going to have a more objective on what it means to be a man.....based on what she thinks a man should be with respect to her?

Do you think a woman who teaches her son to be a man, based on how she feels a man should treat her, is going to have a son who will run out on his kids?

I doubt it.

This whole idea that Mother's can't tell their sons what to do, or they can't teach them anything is bullshit (IMHO), there are far too many dead beat men raised by their fathers and responsible, strong men that people can be proud of that were raised by their mothers to believe otherwise.

Not to mention the fact that it's defeatist, since you're basically saying that the young men/boys in single parent homes are screwed.

The whole idea of "inserting Daddy into the situation" to fix things, gives the impression that men are the saviours that can save the community by their presence, it's disrespectful to the fathers that are good parents as opposed to fathers that just show up.

In the end, Kids need GOOD PARENTS, moreso then a parent of a specific gender. One good parent is always better (IMHO) then one so/so parent and one that just shows up.

People need to get off the whole "Black Man as the Saviour of the Community" and "Black Women as the baby factories of the community", the only thing that's going to save the community is if BOTH genders bust ass to become strong, intelligent vibrant members of society that have their shit together and handle their business.

Think about it, what's the pattern we have now?

The man aren't being raised to become strong members of society and are excused/forgiven for their mistakes, and you have men who are men physically, but mentally they are not ready to be men.

The women are being raised, but are being also taught to be caregivers that depend on the men who are often men in name only, sometimes when they try to achieve, they receive a "social cut" by their own family members/communities.

In essence, young boys and girls are being raised to be adults who can't neccessarily co-exist with each other, can't depend on each other, can't work together....

Sad isn't it?






Peace,







M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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HashimAbdulKhaliq
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Wed Mar-06-02 11:12 AM

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44. "I agree totally"
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

I still hold firm to my statement about a Woman cant teach a man how to be a man though. Just like a Man cant teach a girl how to be a woman.

But I agree just because A Father is present dont mean jack if he doesnt step up to his job and Parent can give thier children thier all and the kids can still wind up messed up beyond repair. I think what we should strive to do is to give it our best. Look at things at all angles and strive like heck to give our children what they need to grow. Smetimes its being lax and sometimes its being strict. Just Ill situation evry parent needs to be the all around parent.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenship
into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword.

It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind.
And w

  

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ochosigrand
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416 posts
Wed Mar-06-02 01:33 PM

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49. "Qualms with the statement"
In response to Reply # 44


  

          


M2 I have a problem with the statement mother's "love their sons and raise their daughters" coined and popularized by Jawazaa Kunjufu because it gives the impression that women don't love their daughters which they certainly do. How about women raise their daughters and spoil their son, you get my drift.


>I still hold firm to my
>statement about a Woman cant
>teach a man how to
>be a man though. Just
>like a Man cant teach
>a girl how to be
>a woman.
>
>But I agree just because A
>Father is present dont mean
>jack if he doesnt step
>up to his job and
>Parent can give thier children
>thier all and the kids
>can still wind up messed
>up beyond repair. I think
>what we should strive to
>do is to give it
>our best. Look at things
>at all angles and strive
>like heck to give our
>children what they need to
>grow. Smetimes its being lax
>and sometimes its being strict.
>Just Ill situation evry parent
>needs to be the all
>around parent.



  

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Keyser

Fri Mar-08-02 09:24 AM

  
79. "RE: Mother's raising Sons"
In response to Reply # 38


          

That must be one good shot of pussy you have(IMHO)that makes you think that our communities don't need men. True some kids who grow up with the father in thier lives still turn out to be bums. No woman can teach a man to be a man. First you need to be a man to teach one to be a man. I'm sick and tired of you folks with this woman is a victim shit, when some of them spend years chasing the wrong damn man. But that's the man fault, right? They chase these men and become pregnant by them and expect this individual to change. Pregnancy is no accident.

Now as far as you thinking that a woman would be more suited to raise a man by her opinion of what a man is simple. Ask 10 women tonight what a man is and you'll get 10 different answers. Ask 10 men(MEN) and you'll get the same answer. Your woman must have the best shot in the world because you defense of them is sickening.

  

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M2
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Fri Mar-08-02 11:44 AM

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82. "Bullshit"
In response to Reply # 79


          

>That must be one good shot
>of pussy you have(IMHO)that makes
>you think that our communities
>don't need men.

What the fuck are you talking about?

I didn't say that our communities didn't need men, I said that they need MEN AND WOMEN!

AND, a lot of the Men in our communities at the moment are not up to the task of raising kids, let alone helping the community.

Just look around.


>True
>some kids who grow up
>with the father in thier
>lives still turn out to
>be bums. No woman
>can teach a man to
>be a man. First
>you need to be a
>man to teach one to
>be a man. I'm
>sick and tired of you
>folks with this woman is
>a victim shit, when some
>of them spend years chasing
>the wrong damn man.
>But that's the man fault,
>right? They chase these
>men and become pregnant by
>them and expect this individual
>to change. Pregnancy is
>no accident.

Uh huh........maybe they're chasing a man because someone like you told them that they need one to survive/raise their sons.

There are plenty of men raised by women who turn up just fine, grow up to men that people can be proud of, and there are plenty of Men who are raised by Men who don't grow up to be men.

SO, it's obvious that HOW the child is raised, NOT who is raising is most important.





>Now as far as you thinking
>that a woman would be
>more suited to raise a
>man by her opinion of
>what a man is simple.
> Ask 10 women tonight
>what a man is and
>you'll get 10 different answers.
> Ask 10 men(MEN) and
>you'll get the same answer.
> Your woman must have
>the best shot in the
>world because you defense of
>them is sickening.

*chuckles*

You ask 10 men what a man is and you'll get 10 different answers, in fact the problem is that a lot of men (Like you) think that being a man just means that you have a penis dangling between your legs.

To call my defense of Women who bust their ass to raise their sons and daughters, "sickening" in the absense of a faux-male presence who fucked them over, is in fact sickening.....and indicates THAT YOU ARE NOT A MAN!

Defending women is sickening?

I must've got a good shot at pussy?

Shoot, I'm single right now, I don't have kids (Nor do I want any). But that's besides the point.

Your lack of comprehension when reading my post, the point of which was that our communities need Men AND Women and that Men are NOT the sole saviors of the community, that a Man doesn't get credit for being a man just because he has a Y Chromosome and for showing up father wise, that Men and Women will save the community together, and gave credit for women who have their shit together, .....just shows that:

1. You lack intelligence
2. You lack maturity
3. You're evidence of the misogynist attitudes and thought patterns that are indicative of the faux men that are hurting the community
4. You're not a man.



Peace out

"man"





M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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LexM
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28342 posts
Fri Mar-08-02 10:40 AM

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81. "that is the fuckin TRUTH"
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

>The women are being raised, but
>are being also taught to
>be caregivers that depend on
>the men who are often
>men in name only, sometimes
>when they try to achieve,
>they receive a "social cut"
>by their own family members/communities.
>
>
>In essence, young boys and girls
>are being raised to be
>adults who can't neccessarily co-exist
>with each other, can't depend
>on each other, can't work
>together....
>
>Sad isn't it?

The older I get, the more distanced I feel from a lot of black men because I'm realizing that their maturity level just isn't there. They were not raised the same way I was, with the same kinds of expectations. And that's sad.


_________________________________________________________
"even isis knew heartbreak..."

need a hero? http://www.ghettosake.com
wanna say hi? AIM: LadyDay78

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

  

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k_orr
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80197 posts
Wed Mar-06-02 02:46 PM

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50. "Manhood classes"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Rites of Passage
stuff every man should know...

Then Fatherhood classes, teaching your son, stuff every father should know.

Not just a workshop, but an ongoing process involving, men of all ages in the community.

The problem that we men have, is deciding what kind of men we want to make.

For instance, if we were to teach every boy how to be a mack and take charge of his women...well you can see how that works out.

If we encourage that, Don't let another man ever get in your face/respect thing....

As the honorable Minister L. Farrakhan said, "what makes a man?"

holla back,
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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HashimAbdulKhaliq
Charter member
751 posts
Thu Mar-07-02 06:14 AM

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51. "Good suggestion"
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

I also think that we have kinda killed our community involvement. I mean what is a community? Nowadays in our communities peeps just keep to them selves and there is very little interaction amongst families that comprise a community. If anything the community comes together only when theres a major problem or for political reasons. Theres never grass rootsy, simple, barebones discussions about family and raising children. Theres never any community wide programs put together like that.

When I was in High School we had weekly sessions called the "Black Male Support Group". It was tight cause we could discuss and air out differences dudes had around school and we could deal with very simple but important issues among young black men. Our sessions were headed by two or three older black men and It was very helpful. Unfortunaly allot of catts who came just came to get out of class.

>Rites of Passage
>stuff every man should know...
>
>Then Fatherhood classes, teaching your son,
>stuff every father should know.
>
>
>Not just a workshop, but an
>ongoing process involving, men of
>all ages in the community.
>
>
>The problem that we men have,
>is deciding what kind of
>men we want to make.
>
>
>For instance, if we were to
>teach every boy how to
>be a mack and take
>charge of his women...well you
>can see how that works
>out.
>
>If we encourage that, Don't let
>another man ever get in
>your face/respect thing....
>
>As the honorable Minister L. Farrakhan
>said, "what makes a man?"
>
>
>holla back,
>k. orr



%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenship
into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword.

It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind.
And w

  

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thrill_factor
Charter member
10183 posts
Thu Mar-07-02 07:54 AM

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56. "RE: Manhood classes"
In response to Reply # 50


          


>The problem that we men have,
>is deciding what kind of
>men we want to make.
>
>
>For instance, if we were to
>teach every boy how to
>be a mack and take
>charge of his women...well you
>can see how that works
>out.


aight, I've said this many times and no one has ever agreed with me, but here goes:

Malcolm X was a player-hater. He left the NOI because Elijah Muhd. was fucking around on his wife. You want a role model of a family man who wasn't obsessed with having a son, who respected the sanctity of marraige and thought men should toe the same line as women? You have one. Why in all the Malcolm-worship that charactered the early 90's did this point never get made?





-----------------------------------
The odds still favor croupiers,
But give the wheel another spin.
Things break down in different ways:
We can't, for that, omit their praise.
--Tom Disch, Entropic Villanelle

  

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jenNjuice
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3527 posts
Thu Mar-07-02 06:26 AM

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52. "RE: AFRICAN'S"
In response to Reply # 0


          

in any traditional african home you find this ALOT...

i hate it:(

"The only thing we wanted for our country was the right to a decent existence, to dignity without hypocrisy , to independence without restrictions... The day will come when history will have its say."-Lumumba

  

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FireBrand
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145739 posts
Thu Mar-07-02 08:06 AM

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57. "RE..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

While I've seen this in other homes, I come from a traditional West Indian household where it doesn't matter who you are- if you mess up academically, financially, or such the like you have a high chance of ending up kicked out and ostracized (sp?).
Both systems are flawed.

The FundaMentalz...Language Arts
Marietta (ATL), GA.

"And herein lies the tragedy of the age: not that men are poor,-all men know something of poverty; not that men are wicked,-who is good? Not that men are ignorant, -what is Truth? Nay, but that men know so little of men."
W.E.B. Dubois

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a blackóat least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

  

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Keyser

Fri Mar-08-02 09:03 AM

  
77. "RE: Love Their Sons, Raise their Daughters"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I strongly dis-agree with you on this. Maybe in your family the men where raised like that. but in mine and those i know the men were made responsible for everything and the woman was given everything. That's the problem today. It hasn't changed, woman are given everything. Teen pregnancy is ridiculous but you say that the girls are raised to be woman and handle life.

I must ask, where do you live because that's not the case in all black communities.

Your posting is so ridiculous I can't even respond to this garbage any longer. Somewhere along the way you bumped your head.

  

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M2
Charter member
10072 posts
Fri Mar-08-02 01:02 PM

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88. "IN YOUR FAMILY"
In response to Reply # 77


          


Doesn't mean all families were like that.......and since a lot of posters seem to be backing me up with experiences and evidence from their own lives, maybe it's not so ridiculous...


Just look at colleges, you always see more Black women in College then Black Men, in the corporate world I see more Black women then Black men and then they tell me about how their brother lives in her Mom's basement or is in trouble, or doesn't take care of his kids, etc, etc.

There is an epidemic of men who ain't handlin their business.......and if that isn't you, don't take it personally.


Peace,






M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassinís life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassinís target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

  

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