I was talking with someone a couple of weeks ago, who made the following comment:

Black People Love their sons and raise their daughters.

In other words, when a son is born that son is unconditionally loved, the bad things he does are accepted as "unfortunately faults" and no one really teaches him how to be a man/adult and carve out a life for himself.

The girl on the other hand, will catch hell for the bad things she does, BUT she is taught how to be a woman/adult and how to go out in the world and carve out a life for herself.

At first thought, it sounds ridiculous right? Well, that's what I thought at least.....until I started noticing somethings in my family and in other Black families.

A few examples:

The son knocks up his girlfriend, they start fighting soon after, son leaves town. He shows up for the birth, leaves 3 days later....over the next 18 months he sends money/support for the kid once.....family members still talk about it. His child is growing up and has never seen her father. People in the family blame the woman for driving the man away, say she got pregnant on purpose, that she's a ho. If you talk about the Son, well, he needed to leave because of the girl, he needed to leave because he needs to get his "shit together", etc.

Sound familiar?

Daughter gets knocked up and almost/does get thrown out of the house. She gets bad mouthed for being a "Ho", it's all because she didn't X, listen to Aunt So and So, shouldn't have been runnin with shaun and them, etc.

If she leaves town and leaves the kid with the Daddy, oh lord...she'll get disowned.

Another Example:

Who is more likely to have the following:

Stable Bank Account
Credit Cards
Their own Car
Their own place
Go to college
Have good credit
A job

The daugthers or the sons?

Secondly, what is the family's reaction to the son when he's not doing well vs. the reaction to the daughter?

How about spousal abuse? I've personally witnessed situations when the family blamed the woman, and/or said that it's a good thing so and so left his family, because she would've driven him to hit her. As if it's his fault.

Simple Arguments: Woman yells at man for not facing up to this responsibilities with his family and other family members chide her for not respecting "The Baby's Daddy" even though the man hasn't done shit to earn anyone's respect.

It seems to me that Black men receive too much protection and "excuses" from other Blacks.....at the detriment to the man receiving the protection and to the community as a whole.

In any event, as a Black man I'm not going to kid myself and say that society isn't more friendly to Black women then it is to Black men, because that's not true.

BUT, on a family level at least, it seems that sons receive less guidance and more forgiveness, perhaps that should be flipped.


Your thoughts?






Peace,








M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

i don't think this mentality is limited to the black community in america. as long as any society is structured as a patriarchy, sons will be raised to some extent as family, while daughters will be raised to be married off to another family. in this context, most would be willing to allow for more excuses for the boys. i realize this is somewhat of an overgeneralization, and someone will come up with a contrasting example. however, this is my perception when looking at the world at large--and also i need some more time to think about this before posting further.

the title of the post reminds me of this documentary i saw on chinese women's lives after the revolution. it was titled "a small happiness," because as the narrator points out, when a boy is born, it is a big happiness...when a girl is born, it is a small happiness. with all issues with the state of women's rights in china aside, how often is this true in other societies, even here in the US?


"leadership...is only incidental to the movement." -philip vera cruz

signed,

ellehcor
girl lurker extraordinaire

.....in the case of strong Patriarchal societies/families, more resources are spent on the son in order to ensure that he has the things he needs in order to become a man, make the family proud, get a good job, etc.

In fact, a great deal of time is spend on preparing the son for life. I've have seen it/see it, in Asian, Mediterranean and other families that are heavily patriarchal.

SO.......it's not quite the same thing.




Peace,




M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

Do you understand that the men will carry on the bloodline of a family and not the woman. So in those societies I can agree with your train of thought. But here it's not like that. We could care less about bloodlines and things of the sort.

being born and raised in an Asian (Filipino) family and having a good handful of Asian friends, I think that there are more similarities in the patriarchy prevalent in Asian families and Black families than there are differences.

I've seen this in my own extended family and friends' families - men do not get as much blame for their screw ups as do women. And all of this is of course dependent upon different Asian cultures, etc. In what I've seen in my own culture - the boys tend to be more spoiled, revered and the girls often catch the flack despite growing up to be the matriarchs of their families. This will never happen in my parents household, because my mom is not your typical Filipino woman - more liberal, independent, and open-minded than most Filipino moms I know. But I've seen it in my cousins, friends, students I work with, etc.

One example I've seen where boys are treated differently than girls is teen pregnancy - the girl gets most, if not all, of the blame, whereas or boyfriend/sex partner is hardly scrutinized. I've seen this in all cultures, not just my own. Or case in point - single parenthood, custody usually falls upon the shoulders of women.

so if you were to ask me if there is a problem in Black communities with the gender roles, patriarchy, etc. I will agree with you, but I will also say that these issues are evident in other communities and are growing problem that needs to be addressed.
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Akwaaba

In many patriarchal societies, time is spent raising the son in order to ensure the sanctity of the society. Here sons AREN'T raised.

SE wo werE fi na wosankofa a yenkyi.

Akoneaba ne agoro
solarICE

"So many of those who consider themselves Afrikan centered spend so much time on themselves that they forget that the primary role of the adult in our tradition was to raise the children to improve the society for their children."- Mwalimu Baruti

***Daily Affirmation***

i must be a warrior. i must be an Afrikan father. i must be self-full. i must challenge myself daily to grow, to love my people in and through action. To reflect that love at all times. To be optimistic. To know that victory is in front of US.

____________________________
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~~~~
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To some extent I do agree, however
Do you think it's easier for a mother to raise a daughter or a son? A mother can teach a girl how to become a woman, but has to improvise on how to teach a son how to become a man.
But I do agree with you. A large amount of the black women I grew up with were pretty much protected, while the black men had to learn by trial and error. My mom told me that boys are easier to raise than girls (I don't know if that's true or not), and me and my brother were a cakewalk compared to my sisters. Many boys aren't given that many restrictions and are pretty much are given carte blanche to make mistakes, while girls aren't allowed to experience making their own mistakes.
While boys make mistakes on their own, it's rare that they can have someone that's around to correct their mistakes. A lot of black boys, young men these days are on some BabyBoy ish.
A lot of girls are protected from making mistakes, which however can also cause a backlash. A lot of black girls I knew that were what I call "lockdown" went out of control senior year, and freshman year in college.
The way I see things is that black young men and black young women are both loved and raised, but parents usually "let go" of the boy a lot quicker, thus letting him experience life on his own a little. A lot of girls are still on lockdown even after they go out in the world, as parents try to protect girls from making mistakes.
Just my opinion, feel free to disagree

Peace
Rex

Abdul Jabbar, Muggsy Malone you
I don't know what that means but you know what I meant when I told you (c) Sean Price

the notion that boys are easier to raise than boys is simply because sexually parents aren't as worried about their son getting someone pregnant, as they are with their daughter getting pregnant.

society promotes male sexual conquest...we give our sons condoms and then tell daughters what they better not do or else.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
whateva man!!

Akwaaba

It needs to be balanced. And yes that is true with many African Americans today.


SE wo werE fi na wosankofa a yenkyi.

Akoneaba ne agoro
solarICE

"So many of those who consider themselves Afrikan centered spend so much time on themselves that they forget that the primary role of the adult in our tradition was to raise the children to improve the society for their children."- Mwalimu Baruti

***Daily Affirmation***

i must be a warrior. i must be an Afrikan father. i must be self-full. i must challenge myself daily to grow, to love my people in and through action. To reflect that love at all times. To be optimistic. To know that victory is in front of US.

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

co-sign. I have cousins who prove that statement.
It should be balanced just like Solarus said. I will raise my sons just like my pops raised me. Good post.

The Stakes is High.

I often look at the exceptions to get a sense of what happens on a even deeper level when people raise sons and daughters. The patriachal society we live in promotes the man as provider but that kind of ideal fell apart years ago with the increase of divorce and single parenthood (i.e. female).

>Black People Love their sons and
>raise their daughters.

I've heard women of color tell me they raise their daughters to care for them when they get old. Sons are expected to leave the household and start new families so they are conditioned to explore life outside, including being encouraged to learn from mistakes. Daughters are expected to become mothers and care givers, not just of their children but others in the family, as well. They are taught to make decisions for the whole, or for the benefit of their loved ones as opposed to/for themselves. BTW- I rebelled against that at an early age.

My mother was a single parent but she was a good provider. She also made sure my father had a hand in raising us. However, their parenting approaches and views on raising daughters were very different. My father's expectation was that we'd be pregnant by age 16 (like his mother, grandmother) or we'd be lucky to make it to high school graduation before getting knocked up. My mother graduated from college before she had us (he was a high school drop out) and she was the primary provider after my parents divorced early. Ironically, while my mother raised us my father raised two more girls on his own ten years later (different mother). My sister an I have master's degrees, no children and my sister quit her lucrative job as a chemical engineer to move to Paris and become a writer. The younger sisters raised by my father both dropped out of high school and had babies before they were 18.

I rebelled for years, esp. against the expectation that my role as a woman was to solely be a mother and caregiver. My mother raised me to explore the world and make my own mistakes. My father thought this was wrong and was so conflicted that he quit communicating altogether when we went off to start our own lives as adults. He refused to support us through college and grad school and he was quick to encourage me to come home and help raise my younger sisters. Rather than be proud of his daughters he choose to alienate us. We excelled because of our mother's love and and defiance of our father.

One of the things I've noticed and discussed with other Black women about Black men is how they handle adversity. Many Black men do not handle adversity effectively. They avoid, run, etc. Women are taught to stay, struggle through and solve problems. There are always exceptions but in general women are expected to deal with problems and men sometimes don't. Even with the superwoman mentality many sisters have both sexes often see themselves as victims of society-at-large. As a result, Black women die of heart attacks (and other diseases) sooner and more often. They get wore down but keep going despite it all. They are expected to take on the world but not be in control of it.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"To be as good as someone else is no high ideal...I am myself." - Paul Robeson

"It's quite an experience to live in fear isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave." - Roy in "Blade Runner"

"Everyone seems to have a clear idea of how other people should lead their lives, but none about his or her own."
--Paulo Coelho, "The Alchemist"

"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path"
--Morpheus in "The Matrix" (and a Buddhist philosophy)

"It's our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities"- Dumbledore to Harry Potter "Chamber of Secrets"

<--- Blame this lady for Nutty.

small example...

Both my younger brother and I go to private schools.


It's my brother's first year.

he brings home a couple C's and a D.

he is told he can't go out that weekend, even though he did end up kickin with the homies.

Okay...when I was in ninth grade, i brought home a C.


Massive hysteria.

WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN DOING UP THERE/YOU'RE NOT FOCUSED/WE'RE WASTING OUR MONEY/YOU'RE GROUNDED FOR A MONTH, ETC.

i did see a repeat of this the next year when I just couldn't get my math grades up.

how come nothing happens to my brother?

-loryn
aim: Tiye1984

i pretend cuz i'm afraid to be--afraid to be--sometimes(c) Bilal

Okayoungins-we stay on point like stacy adams.

ask away http://www.formspring.me/elledub

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tweet me up: @elledub_1920

>
>
>how come nothing happens to my
>brother?
>
CAUSE TO ME, IT SEEMS LIKE SOCIETY NOWADAYS TELL YOU TO BE MORE LENIENT TOWARDS YOUR CHILDRE, WHICH IS GONNA F--K UP EVERYTHING, ESPECIALLY IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY..... I'M FEELIN THIS WHOLE POST, BECAUSE ITS TRUE, FROM THE EXAMPLES OF THE CHILDS FATHER AND HIS FAMILY TO WOMAN JUST NOT GETTIN THE FREEDOM MEN HAVE... AND IN SOME INSTANCES THE WOMANS FAMILY WILL TAKE THE MANS SIDE... WE FAUCKED UP YALL, FORREAL.... WE NEED HELP


"IF ONE OF US AIN'T FREE, THEN WE ALL TO BLAME."-TALIB KWALI

"Niggas mad cause Ibrags about the cash I got, but I'm used to not havin alot, I'm from the gutter and ohh..."-Jay-Z

"Expensive shoes worn, Loui Viton see-through gone, CoChes, my face is like a coupon..."Jay-Z

The black Family unit is all messed up. I agree with your anology but I think that the problem goes back to the missing Male figure. A woman cant teach a boy how to be a man. The examples you showed are usually pointing the that fact. A Father who has been taught by his Father usually would be hard on his son. A son knows that in mommas eyes he can do no wrong and even if he does do wrong she'll be there to bail him out and assit him no matter what. A Father is usually more hard core with his son. When the Father finds out that his son has done something the son knows his dad is gonna give it to him.

Example:

The son gets a girl pregnant and then skates outta town.
A Father should be the one who scolds the hell out of his son for NOT taking care of his responsiblities. A Father can tell his son what if I did the same thing to you? But in the black family the Father's presence is either weak or doesnt exist. The boys momma gonna shield her son as much as possible.

To me thats the problem..the whole Family unit is shot to hell amongst us. The Fathers are gone or weak only to leave to women to take care of everything. This is the same agenda Slave owners had in Slavery: Take the male slaves manhood, beat him if he rebels, leave the woman to fend for herself with the kids and all...its just a viscous cycle. For generations the black family has been destroyed. We dont even know about the wonders of growing up in a unbroken home with both parents there. So the cycle continues and things turn out the opposite way of what they should be. Thats why we (our generation) should strive to break the cycle unfortunately many of us have already linked to the chain of pain at a young age by having children while were too young and not even finished with high school or junior high.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenship
into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword.

It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind.
And w

Slavery didn't screw up the black family.

Read something other than Cress-Welsing.

_________________________
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Aiight

What did?

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenship
into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword.

It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind.
And w

The liberal and feminist movements...and all that jazz.

Most black children were born unto two parent families...until then.

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that women did not want to be married and raise families?
Does it mean that women wanted to raise families on their own?

and just how much do you know about the femenist movement of the 60's and just how much do you know of how black women felt about the movement?

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what their intentions were....what matters are the results of their actions.

Since the movements of the 60's there has been a continuous breakdown of family values. That wasn't there before then.

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the whole 60's femenist movement was white based and bathed in lesbianism. Besides blacks were too busy fighting jimcrow to get better paying jobs. 60's Femenist were fighting to gt better pay.
What f*king sense would it make for me to help you fight to get equal pay when I can't even get a job based on the color of my skin?

Just because you don't know doesn't mean it don't matter.

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Since when is being a Lesbian an "ism" and what does a woman have to be a Lesbian to want equal rights?




peace,





M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

>
>Since when is being a Lesbian
>an "ism" and what does
>a woman have to be
>a Lesbian to want equal
>rights?
>>
>peace,
>M2

'ism' was my add on.
And no you don't have to be a lesbian to be a femenist just as you don't have to be black to fight for civil rights, however the majority and stronghold of the 60's femenist movement were white lesbians.

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show your proof.

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Throughout my search for black women that felt connected with the 60's feminist movement, I found none.

Many black feminist felt as if the feminist movement was not supportive or representive of them.

(i.e) Taking from a college web site. I'll find the site later)
hooks argues that liberal feminists, who have tended to be white, middle-class, college educated women have excluded women unlike themselves from participation in feminist movement.
hooks particularly faults liberal feminists for insisting on a "common oppression" among women, and she argues that this has explicitly excluded black women from participating in feminist movement. Hooks believes that if black and other non-white women and poor women were to develop a feminist political movement, that movement would "look" quite different from the one developed by white, middle-class women.

and

Revolution enables women's struggle for gender equality
The urge to unify has produced fragmentation as black feminists and feminists from the third world have criticised universalistic theories that could not account for culturally specific experiences of gender.
Black feminists argued that much of gender theory was ethnocentric in that it failed to take account of the importance of racism in the experience of black women. If the exploitation of gender was perpetuated by both black and white men, the oppression of racism was similarly inflicted by both white men and women.
There were also differences in strategies and emphasis. Women in the western world fought for access to contraceptives while many poor women in the third world were faced with western funded population control programmes that sought to force birth control methods on them.

and heres a site that pretty much repeats the same message of the feminist movements unwant for black women.
http://www.pregnantpause.org/racism/whatcha.htm

and if feminist movements aren't white dominated and not representive of other ethnicities then why do blacks, latinos and asians feel the need to create their own groups.

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>'ism' was my add on.
>And no you don't have to
>be a lesbian to be
>a femenist just as you
>don't have to be black
>to fight for civil rights,
>however the majority and stronghold
>of the 60's femenist movement
>were white lesbians.

#1. Show Proof, Qualified proof since a lot of people would've labled a feminist as a lesbian on principle, just as a lot of people will assume a female athlete or a woman unmarried by age 35 "must be a lesbian".

#2. Show relevance, assuming the above is true, wouldn't that indicate that Lesbians were less afraid of a "social cut" when persuing equal rights for women?



Peace,





M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

Do you actually think that the fates of blacks and white in this country aren't intertwined?

What happens to one....sooner or later happens to the other.

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yeah only when the shit hits the fan is something done.

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That's besides the point.

The point is that things will still have to be done, else white people will share the same problems black people have today.

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.....share a lot of the same problems that Black people do, maybe not in quite the same magnitude, but they still have said problem.

Only difference is, who spends any time an energy trying to help Poor White people, in a society were everyone pretends that Whites are all upper middle class....living the so called "Rich White Life"?




Peace,





M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

in the minds of some people. As well as politics.

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>That's besides the point.
>
>The point is that things will
>still have to be done,
>else white people will share
>the same problems black people
>have today.


The 'O lets do something NOW before it gets to US' line.
The only time action is taking by whites is when it effects them or if the issue closes in on them, and still whites only do enough to protect themselves.

If this is not so then explain the Tuskeegee Experiment and why numerous amounts of black men died before whites did anything about it? And still they did not act until a black nurse put light on the issue.

Why is it that today millions of Africans are dying of AIDS yet white American owned pharmacutical(sp) companies are refusing to allow affordable treatment? Evidently these white folks don't feel that they share the same problems as black people have today.
Not to mention the rate of AIDS(and every other disease) in the black communities is steady going higher as the white communities lowers. Why not share the secret of that success and please don't give me that safe sex bullshit.

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>Why is it that today millions
>of Africans are dying of
>AIDS yet white American owned
>pharmacutical(sp) companies are refusing to
>allow affordable treatment? Evidently these
>white folks don't feel that
>they share the same problems
>as black people have today.

It's not a race problem, it's a financial one. You're asking these companies to lose millions by providing *affordable* treatment.

It's not a Black/White issue, it's a GREEN one.

I'm not defending them, but that's just the truth of the situation. These drugs cost billions to develop and they recoup those costs via sales, if they give the shit away they lose money.

That's why we have millions of white people in the US who can't get the drugs THEY need because they can't afford them.


>Not to mention the rate of
>AIDS(and every other disease) in
>the black communities is steady
>going higher as the white
>communities lowers. Why not share
>the secret of that success
>and please don't give me
>that safe sex bullshit.

What secret? You think White people get together and hand out Aids Vaccinations and don't tell Black people?

Wake up, Black communities have higher out of wedlock pregnancy rates, so they are obviously not using birth control......which translates (generally) to not having safe sex.

I grew up in White Suburban communities where you'd have maybe ONE kid at the local high school with a baby, how many Black communities can say that?

PLUS, there seems to be a general trend in White people being more likely to engage in Oral sex, which supposedly doesn't transmitt the disease/isn't as likely to...because stomach acid kills the virus before it can be transmitted....couldn't that be a factor?

How about better health and sex education?

How about the fact that disease transmission occurs exponentially, so all it takes is one factor to cause it transmitt faster in one group then another and BOOM one group has a much higher rate.



Peace,






M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

>>Why is it that today millions
>>of Africans are dying of
>>AIDS yet white American owned
>>pharmacutical(sp) companies are refusing to
>>allow affordable treatment? Evidently these
>>white folks don't feel that
>>they share the same problems
>>as black people have today.
>
>It's not a race problem, it's
>a financial one. You're asking
>these companies to lose millions
>by providing *affordable* treatment.
>
>It's not a Black/White issue, it's
>a GREEN one.
>
>I'm not defending them, but that's
>just the truth of the
>situation. These drugs cost billions
>to develop and they recoup
>those costs via sales, if
>they give the shit away
>they lose money.
>
>That's why we have millions of
>white people in the US
>who can't get the drugs
>THEY need because they can't
>afford them.
>
>
>>Not to mention the rate of
>>AIDS(and every other disease) in
>>the black communities is steady
>>going higher as the white
>>communities lowers. Why not share
>>the secret of that success
>>and please don't give me
>>that safe sex bullshit.
>
>What secret? You think White people
>get together and hand out
>Aids Vaccinations and don't tell
>Black people?
>
>Wake up, Black communities have higher
>out of wedlock pregnancy rates,
>so they are obviously not
>using birth control......which translates (generally)
>to not having safe sex.
>
>
>I grew up in White Suburban
>communities where you'd have maybe
>ONE kid at the local
>high school with a baby,
>how many Black communities can
>say that?
>
>PLUS, there seems to be a
>general trend in White people
>being more likely to engage
>in Oral sex, which supposedly
>doesn't transmitt the disease/isn't as
>likely to...because stomach acid kills
>the virus before it can
>be transmitted....couldn't that be a
>factor?

or Abortion, just you didn't see it don't mean it didn't exist.

>
>How about better health and sex
>education?

Your right, unfortunately I have yet to see a PlanParenthood in a black community. And considering 'inner city' schools are at the bottom of the barrel (inChicago)I guess "inner city" kids aren't getting the needed education.
>
>How about the fact that disease
>transmission occurs exponentially, so all
>it takes is one factor
>to cause it transmitt faster
>in one group then another
>and BOOM one group has
>a much higher rate.
>
Okay so your saying the black community are full of hoes? In that case what is to come of the white community considering interacial dating, and seeing that AIDS was first found to be heavy in the white gay male circle, how is it that in less than 10 years the shit suddenly flipped?
>
>
>Peace,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>M2

Food/Drink PlayersCookbook Info:
To help: L9 Health Clinic http://www.commongroundrelief.org/node/242
DEADLINE: November 22, 2006
Please submit your recipes to playerscookbook@yahoo.com or inbox and don't forget PHOTOS.

*********************************

>>I grew up in White Suburban
>>communities where you'd have maybe
>>ONE kid at the local
>>high school with a baby,
>>how many Black communities can
>>say that?
>>
>>PLUS, there seems to be a
>>general trend in White people
>>being more likely to engage
>>in Oral sex, which supposedly
>>doesn't transmitt the disease/isn't as
>>likely to...because stomach acid kills
>>the virus before it can
>>be transmitted....couldn't that be a
>>factor?
>
>or Abortion, just you didn't see
>it don't mean it didn't
>exist.

Change your thinking, one doesn't have to be like the other. Just because white communities aren't having as many teenage pregnancies doesn't mean they're hiding them. You're basically assuming that these white communities HAVE to be like the Black ones.

Quick thoughts:

I'm 26 and don't have any children, something that a lot of my friends from High School and college don't find strange. However, a lot of my lower income Black friends and family, and lower income White friends DO find it odd, especially since I've more or less been involved with someone over the last 8 years or so.

It's called expectations, one group expects that they'll eventually have kids or that "it's life", while the other puts a VERY high priority on making sure they don't have kids out of wedlock.

I went to high school with quite a few girls who were on the pill, when it came to sex, getting pregnant was the #1 reason offered for not doing it, (Disease was second) so even she was on the pill, condoms were often still used. I have a friend who has been sexually active since he was 15 (Also 26) never done it "bareback" even though the only two girls he slept with was on the pill. His experience is not uncommon, people are afraid of pregnancy before they think they're ready.

Planned Parenthood: It's a Standard Operating Procedure amongst a lot of the people I grew up around and went to college with. If a girl becomes very sexually active with a boyfriend or is just promiscuos, she goes to PP to get on the pill, get a Diaphram, get a depo shot, even in high school (My high school discretely provided the information).

It's a different environment when it comes to safe sex and pregnancy.....of course this is more true with middle class white communities then Blue Collar/Low Income ones.

As for abortions....in a small community, it's hard to keep things secret and a lot of girls can't get them as teens, and like I said, in that different environment, it's all that neccessary.


>>
>>How about better health and sex
>>education?
>
>Your right, unfortunately I have yet
>to see a PlanParenthood in
>a black community. And considering
>'inner city' schools are at
>the bottom of the barrel
>(inChicago)I guess "inner city" kids
>aren't getting the needed education.

I'm in 100% agreement with you. When I was in high school my girlfriend and I just went down there after school and she was able to get the Birth Control pill, no muss no fuss.

How many Inner city kids have that option?

How many of them fear pregnancy like middle class kids do?

I've never heard of inner city kids hiding their pregnancies, or killing their babies because they're afraid of their parents finding out.


>>
>>How about the fact that disease
>>transmission occurs exponentially, so all
>>it takes is one factor
>>to cause it transmitt faster
>>in one group then another
>>and BOOM one group has
>>a much higher rate.
>>
>Okay so your saying the black
>community are full of hoes?
>In that case what is
>to come of the white
>community considering interacial dating, and
>seeing that AIDS was first
>found to be heavy in
>the white gay male circle,
>how is it that in
>less than 10 years the
>shit suddenly flipped?

Who said anything about promiscuity? Even with a lower level of sexually activity then Whites, ONE factor that is going to promote aids transmission in the Black community can cause much higher rates.

Interracial dating is still a small % of all relationships, and when it happens it occurs between people of similar socio-economic backgrounds. So a Black Youth (Like me) who grows up in a White Suburban community, is going to benefit from the education and resources available as well as being influenced by that community's attitudes on sex and pregnancy.

PLUS, how many Blacks from poor Black communities (The ones I assume you're referring to) date White Women? How many of those White Women sleep with these guys and don't engage in safe sex?

The White Gay Male community was the primary focus of a lot of the education towards preventing the spread of aids and was the community with the greatest amount of vigilance aimed towards preventing its spread. On top of that, other communities who weren't educated about its spread, were operating under the assumption that it was a "Gay Disease".


Nothing suddenly flipped, it was a gradual change, people just noticed because they thought it was a "Gay Thing" AIDS has been rising amongst Heterosexual communities for some time.


Peace,







M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

>>>I grew up in White Suburban
>>>communities where you'd have maybe
>>>ONE kid at the local
>>>high school with a baby,
>>>how many Black communities can
>>>say that?
>>>
>>>PLUS, there seems to be a
>>>general trend in White people
>>>being more likely to engage
>>>in Oral sex, which supposedly
>>>doesn't transmitt the disease/isn't as
>>>likely to...because stomach acid kills
>>>the virus before it can
>>>be transmitted....couldn't that be a
>>>factor?
>>
>>or Abortion, just you didn't see
>>it don't mean it didn't
>>exist.
>
>Change your thinking, one doesn't have
>to be like the other.

Never said we had to be like each other, however i find it strange that only blacks and browns are at high ass rates for the disease despite we only make up 24% of the population put together, yet 60% of the population is damn near drama free. This is not to say that that 60% has a miracle drug however they do have the POWER to lower the rates. But considering all the babies that blacks and brown produce i guess they need some form of population control. Which i see to be the same thing happening in Africa. especially since white farmers are being made to flee from some countries.

>Just because white communities aren't
>having as many teenage pregnancies
>doesn't mean they're hiding them.
>You're basically assuming that these
>white communities HAVE to be
>like the Black ones.
>
No they don't have to be like black ones, hell even if we had the equal economic levels and so on we still wouldn't be alike.
However abortion has always been more exceptable amongst whites than blacks. Many black women think of an abortion as taboo and will encourage their daughters to have a child rather than abort. The same goes for latinos.

>Quick thoughts:
>
>I'm 26 and don't have any
>children, something that a lot
>of my friends from High
>School and college don't find
>strange. However, a lot of
>my lower income Black friends
>and family, and lower income
>White friends DO find it
>odd, especially since I've more
>or less been involved with
>someone over the last 8
>years or so.
>
just as my 26 year old sister and my 29 year old female cousin.

>It's called expectations, one group expects
>that they'll eventually have kids
>or that "it's life", while
>the other puts a VERY
>high priority on making sure
>they don't have kids out
>of wedlock.
>
>I went to high school with
>quite a few girls who
>were on the pill, when
>it came to sex, getting
>pregnant was the #1 reason
>offered for not doing it,
>(Disease was second) so even
>she was on the pill,
>condoms were often still used.
>I have a friend who
>has been sexually active since
>he was 15 (Also 26)
>never done it "bareback" even
>though the only two girls
>he slept with was on
>the pill. His experience is
>not uncommon, people are afraid
>of pregnancy before they think
>they're ready.

I get some of what your saying but what is your point for why blacks are at high rates for AIDS compared to whites? Cause I know married black couples without kids and singles without kids or disease, and as far as my friends go I'm the only one with a child, so are you saying that the majority of blacks don't hold not having kids until marriage as a high priority?
>
>Planned Parenthood: It's a Standard Operating
>Procedure amongst a lot of
>the people I grew up
>around and went to college
>with. If a girl becomes
>very sexually active with a
>boyfriend or is just promiscuos,
>she goes to PP to
>get on the pill, get
>a Diaphram, get a depo
>shot, even in high school
>(My high school discretely provided
>the information).

But you grew up in the burbs, how many PP's are in the city where a prodominate number of blacks live? In my town 0.
>
>It's a different environment when it
>comes to safe sex and
>pregnancy.....of course this is more
>true with middle class white
>communities then Blue Collar/Low Income
>ones.
>
But if you gave both the SAME(EQUAL) options and facilities then things might not be so different.

>As for abortions....in a small community,
>it's hard to keep things
>secret and a lot of
>girls can't get them as
>teens, and like I said,
>in that different environment, it's
>all that neccessary.
>
>
>>>
>>>How about better health and sex
>>>education?
>>
>>Your right, unfortunately I have yet
>>to see a PlanParenthood in
>>a black community. And considering
>>'inner city' schools are at
>>the bottom of the barrel
>>(inChicago)I guess "inner city" kids
>>aren't getting the needed education.
>
>I'm in 100% agreement with you.
>When I was in high
>school my girlfriend and I
>just went down there after
>school and she was able
>to get the Birth Control
>pill, no muss no fuss.
>
>
>How many Inner city kids have
>that option?
>
>How many of them fear pregnancy
>like middle class kids do?
>
MANY, no one wants to conitue to live in poverty and everyone wants something better for their kids than what they had.
>
>I've never heard of inner city
>kids hiding their pregnancies, or
>killing their babies because they're
>afraid of their parents finding
>out.
>
well you grew up in the burbs, so how could you know.
>
>>>
>>>How about the fact that disease
>>>transmission occurs exponentially, so all
>>>it takes is one factor
>>>to cause it transmitt faster
>>>in one group then another
>>>and BOOM one group has
>>>a much higher rate.
>>>
>>Okay so your saying the black
>>community are full of hoes?
>>In that case what is
>>to come of the white
>>community considering interacial dating, and
>>seeing that AIDS was first
>>found to be heavy in
>>the white gay male circle,
>>how is it that in
>>less than 10 years the
>>shit suddenly flipped?
>
I'LL GET BACK 2U.

>Who said anything about promiscuity? Even
>with a lower level of
>sexually activity then Whites, ONE
>factor that is going to
>promote aids transmission in the
>Black community can cause much
>higher rates.
>
>Interracial dating is still a small
>% of all relationships, and
>when it happens it occurs
>between people of similar socio-economic
>backgrounds. So a Black Youth
>(Like me) who grows up
>in a White Suburban community,
>is going to benefit from
>the education and resources available
>as well as being influenced
>by that community's attitudes on
>sex and pregnancy.
>
>PLUS, how many Blacks from poor
>Black communities (The ones I
>assume you're referring to) date
>White Women? How many of
>those White Women sleep with
>these guys and don't engage
>in safe sex?
>
>The White Gay Male community was
>the primary focus of a
>lot of the education towards
>preventing the spread of aids
>and was the community with
>the greatest amount of vigilance
>aimed towards preventing its spread.
>On top of that, other
>communities who weren't educated about
>its spread, were operating under
>the assumption that it was
>a "Gay Disease".
>
>
>Nothing suddenly flipped, it was a
>gradual change, people just noticed
>because they thought it was
>a "Gay Thing" AIDS has
>been rising amongst Heterosexual communities
>for some time.
>
>
>Peace,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>M2

Food/Drink PlayersCookbook Info:
To help: L9 Health Clinic http://www.commongroundrelief.org/node/242
DEADLINE: November 22, 2006
Please submit your recipes to playerscookbook@yahoo.com or inbox and don't forget PHOTOS.

*********************************

>Never said we had to be
>like each other, however i
>find it strange that only
>blacks and browns are at
>high ass rates for the
>disease despite we only make
>up 24% of the population
>put together, yet 60% of
>the population is damn near
>drama free. This is not
>to say that that 60%
>has a miracle drug however
>they do have the POWER
>to lower the rates. But
>considering all the babies that
>blacks and brown produce i
>guess they need some form
>of population control. Which i
>see to be the same
>thing happening in Africa. especially
>since white farmers are being
>made to flee from some
>countries.

It's strange, just look around you, there are plenty of reasons and it's not that Whites all got together and are hiding somethign from brown people.


>>Just because white communities aren't
>>having as many teenage pregnancies
>>doesn't mean they're hiding them.
>>You're basically assuming that these
>>white communities HAVE to be
>>like the Black ones.
>>
>No they don't have to be
>like black ones, hell even
>if we had the equal
>economic levels and so on
>we still wouldn't be alike.

But if we had the same access to information, health care and similar attitudes towards sex, things would be a lot closer.

>However abortion has always been more
>exceptable amongst whites than blacks.
>Many black women think of
>an abortion as taboo and
>will encourage their daughters to
>have a child rather than
>abort. The same goes for
>latinos.

How many Blacks do you know of that have blown up abortion clinics?

Regardless, I think that few of them are getting to the point where they need an abortion (Since the pregnancy rates are so much lower in the first place) and many of them wouldn't abort either, with the heavy presence of Right Wing conservatives infesting the burbs, I don't see it happening very often.

IMHO, they are more likely to simply send the child "to aunt patties house" and have her give up the child for adoption.

>I get some of what your
>saying but what is your
>point for why blacks are
>at high rates for AIDS
>compared to whites? Cause I
>know married black couples without
>kids and singles without kids
>or disease, and as far
>as my friends go I'm
>the only one with a
>child, so are you saying
>that the majority of blacks
>don't hold not having kids
>until marriage as a high
>priority?

I'm saying we don't place the same stigma on having illegitamate kids as Whites do. When you don't have the same Stigma you don't worry about it as much.

Do you think Black families are as ashamed as White ones to tell people that their 16 year old daughter is pregnant, do you think that girl experiences as much of a "social cut" from those around her?

Growing up, White girl around me got pregnant, it was pretty much social death. Guy skipped town, no one would really talk to her, when she came back to school, they refused to let her be on the Cheerleading Squad, she was made fun of, etc, etc...she had to transfer to a new school and her family moved away. In the new town, the passed the girl off as the girl's younger sister.

Know any Black families that would happen too?

In fact, if a girl got pregnant around me, it was a given she was moving away/going to a different school, it was too much to deal with.



>>
>>Planned Parenthood: It's a Standard Operating
>>Procedure amongst a lot of
>>the people I grew up
>>around and went to college
>>with. If a girl becomes
>>very sexually active with a
>>boyfriend or is just promiscuos,
>>she goes to PP to
>>get on the pill, get
>>a Diaphram, get a depo
>>shot, even in high school
>>(My high school discretely provided
>>the information).
>
>But you grew up in the
>burbs, how many PP's are
>in the city where a
>prodominate number of blacks live?
>In my town 0.

Exactly...less birth control availability is going to cause more pregnancies and transmission of disease.


>>
>>It's a different environment when it
>>comes to safe sex and
>>pregnancy.....of course this is more
>>true with middle class white
>>communities then Blue Collar/Low Income
>>ones.
>>
>But if you gave both the
>SAME(EQUAL) options and facilities then
>things might not be so
>different.

Agreed.

>>As for abortions....in a small community,
>>it's hard to keep things
>>secret and a lot of
>>girls can't get them as
>>teens, and like I said,
>>in that different environment, it's
>>all that neccessary.
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>>How about better health and sex
>>>>education?
>>>
>>>Your right, unfortunately I have yet
>>>to see a PlanParenthood in
>>>a black community. And considering
>>>'inner city' schools are at
>>>the bottom of the barrel
>>>(inChicago)I guess "inner city" kids
>>>aren't getting the needed education.
>>
>>I'm in 100% agreement with you.
>>When I was in high
>>school my girlfriend and I
>>just went down there after
>>school and she was able
>>to get the Birth Control
>>pill, no muss no fuss.
>>
>>
>>How many Inner city kids have
>>that option?
>>
>>How many of them fear pregnancy
>>like middle class kids do?
>>
>MANY, no one wants to conitue
>to live in poverty and
>everyone wants something better for
>their kids than what they
>had.

But look at their actions.

70% of White kids aren't born out of wedlock.


>>
>>I've never heard of inner city
>>kids hiding their pregnancies, or
>>killing their babies because they're
>>afraid of their parents finding
>>out.
>>
>well you grew up in the
>burbs, so how could you
>know.

Touche'

But I doubt the fear/stigma is as high.

If I started dating a woman with a child who had the child when she was in her teens, I doubt my suburbanite friends would be very accepting of her.

Most of my family, some of my Black friends who grew up in the inner city, wouldn't blink, nor would they care.



Peace,





M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

>>Never said we had to be
>>like each other, however i
>>find it strange that only
>>blacks and browns are at
>>high ass rates for the
>>disease despite we only make
>>up 24% of the population
>>put together, yet 60% of
>>the population is damn near
>>drama free. This is not
>>to say that that 60%
>>has a miracle drug however
>>they do have the POWER
>>to lower the rates. But
>>considering all the babies that
>>blacks and brown produce i
>>guess they need some form
>>of population control. Which i
>>see to be the same
>>thing happening in Africa. especially
>>since white farmers are being
>>made to flee from some
>>countries.
>
>It's strange, just look around you,
>there are plenty of reasons
>and it's not that Whites
>all got together and are
>hiding somethign from brown people.
>
>
Simply put: If you hold out on resources then yes you are hiding something.
>
>>>Just because white communities aren't
>>>having as many teenage pregnancies
>>>doesn't mean they're hiding them.
>>>You're basically assuming that these
>>>white communities HAVE to be
>>>like the Black ones.
>>>
>>No they don't have to be
>>like black ones, hell even
>>if we had the equal
>>economic levels and so on
>>we still wouldn't be alike.
>
>But if we had the same
>access to information, health care
>and similar attitudes towards sex,
>things would be a lot
>closer.

BINGO: IF we had the same access to information, health care ...as for similar attitudes, are you saying all middle income whites feel this way/all poor blacks feel this way?
>
>>However abortion has always been more
>>exceptable amongst whites than blacks.
>>Many black women think of
>>an abortion as taboo and
>>will encourage their daughters to
>>have a child rather than
>>abort. The same goes for
>>latinos.
>
>How many Blacks do you know
>of that have blown up
>abortion clinics?
>
How many blacks you know fight for pro-choice, protesting and such?

>Regardless, I think that few of
>them are getting to the
>point where they need an
>abortion (Since the pregnancy rates
>are so much lower in
>the first place) and many
>of them wouldn't abort either,
>with the heavy presence of
>Right Wing conservatives infesting the
>burbs, I don't see it
>happening very often.
>
I hope your not saying that white burbanites would have kids based on RightWing groups.

>IMHO, they are more likely to
>simply send the child "to
>aunt patties house" and have
>her give up the child
>for adoption.
>
Have you seen the low rate of white kids in adoption? Do you think whites would adopting over seas from Romania if the likely white girl were to take that route?

>>I get some of what your
>>saying but what is your
>>point for why blacks are
>>at high rates for AIDS
>>compared to whites? Cause I
>>know married black couples without
>>kids and singles without kids
>>or disease, and as far
>>as my friends go I'm
>>the only one with a
>>child, so are you saying
>>that the majority of blacks
>>don't hold not having kids
>>until marriage as a high
>>priority?
>
>I'm saying we don't place the
>same stigma on having illegitamate
>kids as Whites do. When
>you don't have the same
>Stigma you don't worry about
>it as much.
>
I really don't think thats the case considering the outof wed births that white female celebraties are making popular. And it is a stigma in the black community cause everyone knows that if it happens you become a statistic in everyones eyes(b&w). No one
wants to be a statistic.

>Do you think Black families are
>as ashamed as White ones
>to tell people that their
>16 year old daughter is
>pregnant, do you think that
>girl experiences as much of
>a "social cut" from those
>around her?
>
How many black teens do you know that what pregnant and what was their families reaction? Believe the shit is looked down on and yes the girl is given a social cut, however the girl is not thrown out of the family if thats what your getting at, but she might receive a beat down, no lie.

>Growing up, White girl around me
>got pregnant, it was pretty
>much social death. Guy skipped
>town, no one would really
>talk to her, when she
>came back to school, they
>refused to let her be
>on the Cheerleading Squad, she
>was made fun of, etc,
>etc...she had to transfer to
>a new school and her
>family moved away. In the
>new town, the passed the
>girl off as the girl's
>younger sister.
>
That sounds like some 1960 shit and if that be the case then I'm pretty sure white girls are aborting their asses off.
Anyway as I come to think of it, back in 96 in MPLS I was talking with my roomy(whitemiddleclass, Iowa) and she was telling me of how her and her best friend would have each others backs when taking pregnancy test and without me even asking what she would have done with the kid she told me '...because i knew I couldn't keep it'. Now I doubt that she was talking about giving it up, considering she was modeling. What good is a model with stretch marks?

>Know any Black families that would
>happen too?
>
Yeah back in 1960, but that goes for white families too.

>In fact, if a girl got
>pregnant around me, it was
>a given she was moving
>away/going to a different school,
>it was too much to
>deal with.
>
>
>>>
>>>Planned Parenthood: It's a Standard Operating
>>>Procedure amongst a lot of
>>>the people I grew up
>>>around and went to college
>>>with. If a girl becomes
>>>very sexually active with a
>>>boyfriend or is just promiscuos,
>>>she goes to PP to
>>>get on the pill, get
>>>a Diaphram, get a depo
>>>shot, even in high school
>>>(My high school discretely provided
>>>the information).
>>
>>But you grew up in the
>>burbs, how many PP's are
>>in the city where a
>>prodominate number of blacks live?
>>In my town 0.
>
>Exactly...less birth control availability is going
>to cause more pregnancies and
>transmission of disease.
>
Why we still on this shit?
>>>
>>>It's a different environment when it
>>>comes to safe sex and
>>>pregnancy.....of course this is more
>>>true with middle class white
>>>communities then Blue Collar/Low Income
>>>ones.
>>>
>>But if you gave both the
>>SAME(EQUAL) options and facilities then
>>things might not be so
>>different.
>
>Agreed.
>
>>>As for abortions....in a small community,
>>>it's hard to keep things
>>>secret and a lot of
>>>girls can't get them as
>>>teens, and like I said,
>>>in that different environment, it's
>>>all that neccessary.
>>>
If somebody wants to get an abortion bad enough and be secretive about, they will find a way.
>>>>>
>>>>>How about better health and sex
>>>>>education?
>>>>
>>>>Your right, unfortunately I have yet
>>>>to see a PlanParenthood in
>>>>a black community. And considering
>>>>'inner city' schools are at
>>>>the bottom of the barrel
>>>>(inChicago)I guess "inner city" kids
>>>>aren't getting the needed education.
>>>
>>>I'm in 100% agreement with you.
>>>When I was in high
>>>school my girlfriend and I
>>>just went down there after
>>>school and she was able
>>>to get the Birth Control
>>>pill, no muss no fuss.
>>>
>>>
>>>How many Inner city kids have
>>>that option?
>>>
>>>How many of them fear pregnancy
>>>like middle class kids do?
>>>
>>MANY, no one wants to conitue
>>to live in poverty and
>>everyone wants something better for
>>their kids than what they
>>had.
>
>But look at their actions.
>
>70% of White kids aren't born
>out of wedlock.
>
But still the RESOURCES to achieve that goal are not in BLACK communities.
>>>
>>>I've never heard of inner city
>>>kids hiding their pregnancies, or
>>>killing their babies because they're
>>>afraid of their parents finding
>>>out.
>>>
>>well you grew up in the
>>burbs, so how could you
>>know.
>
>Touche'
>
>But I doubt the fear/stigma is
>as high.
>
>If I started dating a woman
>with a child who had
>the child when she was
>in her teens, I doubt
>my suburbanite friends would be
>very accepting of her.

What that got to do with this. Hell i know men raised by they mommas they don't date women with kids and avoid it at all cost.
>
>Most of my family, some of
>my Black friends who grew
>up in the inner city,
>wouldn't blink, nor would they
>care.
>
Okay your burby friends would look at you cross-eye for dating a women with a kid half her age, yet your black friends would just yarn?
>
>Peace,
>
>
>
>
>
>M2

M2 you confusing the hell out of me. I'm just saying if you don't give equal advantage to people you can't expect equal outcomes. Blacks do not up hold out of wedlock kids as something great, everyone would want their child to marry, have a good education, and career before having a kid. Stop making it seem like Blacks don't want or value these things.

I'm out

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>Simply put: If you hold out
>on resources then yes you
>are hiding something.

It's a funding issue, and it's not like people can't hop on busses.



>>
>>>>Just because white communities aren't
>>>>having as many teenage pregnancies
>>>>doesn't mean they're hiding them.
>>>>You're basically assuming that these
>>>>white communities HAVE to be
>>>>like the Black ones.
>>>>
>>>No they don't have to be
>>>like black ones, hell even
>>>if we had the equal
>>>economic levels and so on
>>>we still wouldn't be alike.
>>
>>But if we had the same
>>access to information, health care
>>and similar attitudes towards sex,
>>things would be a lot
>>closer.
>
>BINGO: IF we had the same
>access to information, health care
>...as for similar attitudes, are
>you saying all middle income
>whites feel this way/all poor
>blacks feel this way?

In general, yes.

My own experiences with dating/sleeping dealing with people of lower socio-economic status (Of all races) tell me that I'm much more likely to be able to get away with: "I'll pull out Baby" "Condoms bother me" then women of similar or higher socioeconomic status to me.

I think we talked about this before on another thread, weren't you the one that said that the only White women at your job who have kids were either married or divorced?



>>
>>>However abortion has always been more
>>>exceptable amongst whites than blacks.
>>>Many black women think of
>>>an abortion as taboo and
>>>will encourage their daughters to
>>>have a child rather than
>>>abort. The same goes for
>>>latinos.
>>
>>How many Blacks do you know
>>of that have blown up
>>abortion clinics?
>>
>How many blacks you know fight
>for pro-choice, protesting and such?

Plenty.



>>Regardless, I think that few of
>>them are getting to the
>>point where they need an
>>abortion (Since the pregnancy rates
>>are so much lower in
>>the first place) and many
>>of them wouldn't abort either,
>>with the heavy presence of
>>Right Wing conservatives infesting the
>>burbs, I don't see it
>>happening very often.
>>
>I hope your not saying that
>white burbanites would have kids
>based on RightWing groups.

A lot of people in the Suburbs are against abortion, where do you think those pro-life protestors come from? Who do you think makes the most noise about getting laws passed that require the child to get parental consent if the kid wants an abortion?

Suburbanites.

You seem to think that a lot of white people are just killing their babies and that's why the birth rate is lower, when that's just not true, they're simply getting pregnant at lower rates in the first place.

>>IMHO, they are more likely to
>>simply send the child "to
>>aunt patties house" and have
>>her give up the child
>>for adoption.
>>
>Have you seen the low rate
>of white kids in adoption?
>Do you think whites would
>adopting over seas from Romania
>if the likely white girl
>were to take that route?

#1. It's actually much cheaper and easier to adopt kids from overseas then from America. A lot of parents do this because they don't feel like waiting.

#2. There are fewer White kids waiting to be adopted, because White people are more likely to adopt in the first place, While Black people are far less likely to adopt. I knew plenty of adopted White kids (from america) growing up.

#3. Much lower pregnancy and birth rates amongst single mothers, resulting in far fewer kids being put up for adoption.


>>>I get some of what your
>>>saying but what is your
>>>point for why blacks are
>>>at high rates for AIDS
>>>compared to whites? Cause I
>>>know married black couples without
>>>kids and singles without kids
>>>or disease, and as far
>>>as my friends go I'm
>>>the only one with a
>>>child, so are you saying
>>>that the majority of blacks
>>>don't hold not having kids
>>>until marriage as a high
>>>priority?
>>
>>I'm saying we don't place the
>>same stigma on having illegitamate
>>kids as Whites do. When
>>you don't have the same
>>Stigma you don't worry about
>>it as much.
>>
>I really don't think thats the
>case considering the outof wed
>births that white female celebraties
>are making popular. And it
>is a stigma in the
>black community cause everyone knows
>that if it happens you
>become a statistic in everyones
>eyes(b&w). No one
>wants to be a statistic.

Not the same thing.

White Female Celebrities (Of which they are like 3) can do what they want, doesn't mean people would accept it if it was right next door.

Like I said, none of my White friends is going to date a White Baby Mama......while in the Black community, it's not a big deal. Divorce is one thing, but out of Wedlock? No way, Jose.

A few years back, my secretary (White, lived in a Middle Class area, very attractive) had guys more or less running from her house because she was 25 with an 9 year old son.

My Boss' secretary (Black, 27, 2 kids, lived in Philly) didn't really have problems with guys dissing her because she had kids.

I'm not saying there isn't a Stigma, but it isn't ANYWHERE are as strong as the Stigma in White communities. I've observed both and the difference is striking.

>>Do you think Black families are
>>as ashamed as White ones
>>to tell people that their
>>16 year old daughter is
>>pregnant, do you think that
>>girl experiences as much of
>>a "social cut" from those
>>around her?
>>
>How many black teens do you
>know that what pregnant and
>what was their families reaction?
>Believe the shit is looked
>down on and yes the
>girl is given a social
>cut, however the girl is
>not thrown out of the
>family if thats what your
>getting at, but she might
>receive a beat down, no
>lie.

Beat Down Vs. Disowned by your parents, Beat Down Vs. Disowned by your Parents, Beat Down Vs. Disowned by your parents.

Hmm......


The social cut is no where near as severe.


>That sounds like some 1960 shit
>and if that be the
>case then I'm pretty sure
>white girls are aborting their
>asses off.

#1. Teenagers can't get abortions without their parents finding out.

#2. A lot of parents put their kids on the pill, or the kid finds a way to do it themselves.

#3. Because of the reprocussions, they work a lot harder at making sure they always use birth control, so they're simply not getting pregnant in the first place. Remember, this girls have MUCH lower rates of pregnancy, let alone births.

Please let go of this whole abortion crap and accept the fact that a different attitude/priorities towards birth control is behind 90-95% of the difference here. When you have people who just accept that they can get to age 30 without getting pregnant (let alone giving birth) they're obviously conducting themselves different with respect to sex and birth control.




>Anyway as I come to think
>of it, back in 96
>in MPLS I was talking
>with my roomy(whitemiddleclass, Iowa) and
>she was telling me of
>how her and her best
>friend would have each others
>backs when taking pregnancy test
>and without me even asking
>what she would have done
>with the kid she told
>me '...because i knew I
>couldn't keep it'. Now I
>doubt that she was talking
>about giving it up, considering
>she was modeling. What good
>is a model with stretch
>marks?

If she's that afraid of abortion, she's almost definitely on the pill or Depo, and won't be having sex without a condom. Because of the "fear" she is going to make damn sure she doesn't get prengant in the first place.......when in this day and age, isn't that hard.



>>Know any Black families that would
>>happen too?
>>
>Yeah back in 1960, but that
>goes for white families too.

They still do it, but it's rare, because they aren't getting pregnant in the first place.


>>Exactly...less birth control availability is going
>>to cause more pregnancies and
>>transmission of disease.
>>
>Why we still on this shit?

Because you're the one talking about some secret causing the difference in rates of HIV transmission and I'm telling you why, obviously it's an answer you don't want to accept, you'd rather Blame Whitey.


Any activity that can get you pregnant can get you infected with HIV, SO lower use of birth control is going to result in higher rates of infection.


>>>>As for abortions....in a small community,
>>>>it's hard to keep things
>>>>secret and a lot of
>>>>girls can't get them as
>>>>teens, and like I said,
>>>>in that different environment, it's
>>>>all that neccessary.
>>>>
>If somebody wants to get an
>abortion bad enough and be
>secretive about, they will find
>a way.

C'mon you damn well folk can't keep anything secret, especially teenagers.

Boyfriend knows, he tells his boy because he has to tell someone, or the girl tells her best friend and 3 months later, everyone more or less knows.



>But still the RESOURCES to achieve
>that goal are not in
>BLACK communities.

It's not all about resources, it's thinking and habits as well.

People can't drive/take a bus to PP, for something that's this important?

People can't walk to the corner Bodega and buy condoms?

Resources would reduce some of this, but sometimes (especially for something this critical) people need to step up and handle their business.


>>If I started dating a woman
>>with a child who had
>>the child when she was
>>in her teens, I doubt
>>my suburbanite friends would be
>>very accepting of her.
>
>What that got to do with
>this. Hell i know men
>raised by they mommas they
>don't date women with kids
>and avoid it at all
>cost.

You're missing the point (again)

The point is that the stigma is SO HIGH, that having kids an early age more or less results in social ostracization, SO people are going to much more careful about not having kids.




>>
>>Most of my family, some of
>>my Black friends who grew
>>up in the inner city,
>>wouldn't blink, nor would they
>>care.
>>
>Okay your burby friends would look
>at you cross-eye for dating
>a women with a kid
>half her age, yet your
>black friends would just yarn?

More or less......if they said anything it might be: "why do you want to deal with a kid?" but they wouldn't be passing judgement on the girl as if she was a slut, trash, stupid, beneath us, etc.

Like I said, the stigma against teen parents/people who have kids in their early 20s is very high.



>M2 you confusing the hell out
>of me. I'm just saying
>if you don't give equal
>advantage to people you can't
>expect equal outcomes. Blacks do
>not up hold out of
>wedlock kids as something great,
>everyone would want their child
>to marry, have a good
>education, and career before having
>a kid. Stop making it
>seem like Blacks don't want
>or value these things.
>
>I'm out

I'm not saying they DON'T value these things, I'm saying that they don't value them as MUCH, because if they did 70% of Black kids wouldn't be born out of wedlock, lack of resources isn't the whole story, attitudes is a lot of it.

Because if people were of the mind of, "Hey, I can't get what I need to protect myself sexually" they would find a way to get it, or not have sex, Suburbanites in similar situations do it all the time.

I know plenty of girls who didn't have sex because they were afraid of getting pregnant before they finished college, or waited until they got to college and could get the pill from the health center.




Peace,







M2

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>>>I grew up in White Suburban
>>>communities where you'd have maybe
>>>ONE kid at the local
>>>high school with a baby,
>>>how many Black communities can
>>>say that?
>>>
>>>PLUS, there seems to be a
>>>general trend in White people
>>>being more likely to engage
>>>in Oral sex, which supposedly
>>>doesn't transmitt the disease/isn't as
>>>likely to...because stomach acid kills
>>>the virus before it can
>>>be transmitted....couldn't that be a
>>>factor?
>>
>>or Abortion, just you didn't see
>>it don't mean it didn't
>>exist.
>
>Change your thinking, one doesn't have
>to be like the other.
>Just because white communities aren't
>having as many teenage pregnancies
>doesn't mean they're hiding them.
>You're basically assuming that these
>white communities HAVE to be
>like the Black ones.
>
>Quick thoughts:
>
>I'm 26 and don't have any
>children, something that a lot
>of my friends from High
>School and college don't find
>strange. However, a lot of
>my lower income Black friends
>and family, and lower income
>White friends DO find it
>odd, especially since I've more
>or less been involved with
>someone over the last 8
>years or so.
>
>It's called expectations, one group expects
>that they'll eventually have kids
>or that "it's life", while
>the other puts a VERY
>high priority on making sure
>they don't have kids out
>of wedlock.
>
>I went to high school with
>quite a few girls who
>were on the pill, when
>it came to sex, getting
>pregnant was the #1 reason
>offered for not doing it,
>(Disease was second) so even
>she was on the pill,
>condoms were often still used.
>I have a friend who
>has been sexually active since
>he was 15 (Also 26)
>never done it "bareback" even
>though the only two girls
>he slept with was on
>the pill. His experience is
>not uncommon, people are afraid
>of pregnancy before they think
>they're ready.
>
>Planned Parenthood: It's a Standard Operating
>Procedure amongst a lot of
>the people I grew up
>around and went to college
>with. If a girl becomes
>very sexually active with a
>boyfriend or is just promiscuos,
>she goes to PP to
>get on the pill, get
>a Diaphram, get a depo
>shot, even in high school
>(My high school discretely provided
>the information).
>
>It's a different environment when it
>comes to safe sex and
>pregnancy.....of course this is more
>true with middle class white
>communities then Blue Collar/Low Income
>ones.
>
>As for abortions....in a small community,
>it's hard to keep things
>secret and a lot of
>girls can't get them as
>teens, and like I said,
>in that different environment, it's
>all that neccessary.
>

But this mean it wasn't done? I'm sure if someone wanted to have an abortion and keep it underwraps they very well could.
>
>>>
>>>How about better health and sex
>>>education?
>>
>>Your right, unfortunately I have yet
>>to see a PlanParenthood in
>>a black community. And considering
>>'inner city' schools are at
>>the bottom of the barrel
>>(inChicago)I guess "inner city" kids
>>aren't getting the needed education.
>
>I'm in 100% agreement with you.
>When I was in high
>school my girlfriend and I
>just went down there after
>school and she was able
>to get the Birth Control
>pill, no muss no fuss.
>
>
>How many Inner city kids have
>that option? 0 black, just the whitekids that reside on the North side close to Evanston and so on. I don't even see PP's in the south suburbs, guess theres too many brown faces there too.
>
>How many of them fear pregnancy
>like middle class kids do?

So your saying blackmiddle and black poor kids don't fear pregnancy? I doubt that any poor kid, regardless of color, wants their kid to grow up in the conditions they grew up in.
>
>I've never heard of inner city
>kids hiding their pregnancies, or
>killing their babies because they're
>afraid of their parents finding
>out.
>
But you didn't grow up in the inner city, and i knew a few girls that jumped down stairs, duched to no end with pepsi, and got into fights just to loose a kid. As a matter of fact I went to a prodomenately white school to make sure I didn't get pregnant.
>>>
>>>How about the fact that disease
>>>transmission occurs exponentially, so all
>>>it takes is one factor
>>>to cause it transmitt faster
>>>in one group then another
>>>and BOOM one group has
>>>a much higher rate.

One Factor, what factor and do only black and latinos hold that factor?
>>>
>>Okay so your saying the black
>>community are full of hoes?
>>In that case what is
>>to come of the white
>>community considering interacial dating, and
>>seeing that AIDS was first
>>found to be heavy in
>>the white gay male circle,
>>how is it that in
>>less than 10 years the
>>shit suddenly flipped?
>
>Who said anything about promiscuity? Even
>with a lower level of
>sexually activity then Whites, ONE
>factor that is going to
>promote aids transmission in the
>Black community can cause much
>higher rates.
>
What FACTOR? You make it sound like we have a special gene that connects us to AIDS.

>Interracial dating is still a small
>% of all relationships, and
>when it happens it occurs
>between people of similar socio-economic
>backgrounds.
Thats a damn lie. I know plenty of black men and women in lower social groups who are dating and married to whites of higher social groups. Maybe you thought i meant relationship as dating. Not so, I'm talking about people kicking it or just having casual sex, which I'm seeing to be a main purpose for many in interacial relationships.

So a Black Youth
>(Like me) who grows up
>in a White Suburban community,
>is going to benefit from
>the education and resources available
>as well as being influenced
>by that community's attitudes on
>sex and pregnancy.
>
Now what if those resources where available in black communities as well. Do you think we would have the high rate of AIDS or pregnancy? See this is the secret that i was talking about. Although its not a secret, it is still NOT available to black communities and if you think i'm lying go to a inner city black community such as the south or west side of Chicago and tell me how many resources you see.
>
PLUS, how many Blacks from poor
>Black communities (The ones I
>assume you're referring to) date
>White Women?
You'd probably be surprised, but I wouldn't. Also considering you went to college and I'm guessing lived on a campus, tell me how many of the black guys who dated(had sex) with white girls where of middle class? A guy could be from the Icky's (projects), but how would you know that if he didn't tell you? How many white girls would tell a black guy no simply because he is from the inner city.

How many of
>those White Women sleep with
>these guys and don't engage
>in safe sex?
>
I'm not in the bedroom with them so hell if i know, however someone must not be using protection considering the birht of interracial babies is not at a low.

>The White Gay Male community was
>the primary focus of a
>lot of the education towards
>preventing the spread of aids
>and was the community with
>the greatest amount of vigilance
>aimed towards preventing its spread.
>On top of that, other
>communities who weren't educated about
>its spread, were operating under
>the assumption that it was
>a "Gay Disease".
>
This leads us back to resources and availability 101. What good is it to have an antedote (information) that could prevent you from dying and holding it from you.
>
>Nothing suddenly flipped, it was a
>gradual change, people just noticed
>because they thought it was
>a "Gay Thing" AIDS has
>been rising amongst Heterosexual communities
>for some time.
>
But you see whites in general where given the upper hand becuase they were given the information, however it was kept from blacks and browns unitl sometime later, then suddenly the information is giving to us. Well is just a little too damn late and this occurs with every and anything dealing with black people. A prime example is the tuskeegee experiment. Not only was information held back from these men, but the damn cure was too. Once bitten 2wice shy. Who's to say the same thing isn't occuring now.
>
>Peace,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>M2

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>>As for abortions....in a small community,
>>it's hard to keep things
>>secret and a lot of
>>girls can't get them as
>>teens, and like I said,
>>in that different environment, it's
>>all that neccessary.
>>
>
>But this mean it wasn't done?
>I'm sure if someone wanted
>to have an abortion and
>keep it underwraps they very
>well could.

Your neglecting a very important fact:

Since White Teens/Young people typically fear pregnancy/disease a great deal more then Black Teens/Young People do, they are far less likely to be in the position to NEED abortions in the first place.

Use of birth control is the primary reason for the differences in single-mother birth rates, NOT abortion, simple because they are far less likely to get pregnant in the first place, let alone give birth.

Your insistence that the difference is due to abortions, ignores the reason for the difference in birth rates and effectively takes the solution off the table.

If someone says, well that White Community over there has less teen parents then we do because of abortion, that basically gives the message of: "There is nothing we can do to stop this problem but have abortions".

It also more or less validates the irresponsible behavior of teens who don't use condoms, don't get on birth control, don't make birth control a priority.

Like I said, I've NEVER had a fellow suburbanite ask me why I don't have kids, *ME* the Unmarried Bachelor. The thought never crosses their minds, because they figure I (like themselves) would use Birth control.

Just on this Board I've heard people say that people having kids by their mid-20s "is just life", that people who don't want to date someone with kids, are being unrealistic, that it's odd for someone in their late 20s to not have children......let alone the people who've said it in real life.

The people who says this are predominantly lower income/blue collar Black people who grew up in and around the inner cities.


>>I'm in 100% agreement with you.
>>When I was in high
>>school my girlfriend and I
>>just went down there after
>>school and she was able
>>to get the Birth Control
>>pill, no muss no fuss.
>>
>>
>>How many Inner city kids have
>>that option? 0 black, just the whitekids that reside on the North side close to Evanston and so on. I don't even see PP's in the south suburbs, guess theres too many brown faces there too.

Okay, but even without PP those kids can just go to Rite Aid and buy condoms. In fact, a lot of their parents will just take them to the doctor and put them on the pill.

A lot of the kids in the inner cities aren't even using Condoms, let alone having their parents put them on the pill.

I don't want to hear about the cost of health care either, you can get the pill for about $30/month or get depo for $45 which will last you for 3 months.


>>
>>How many of them fear pregnancy
>>like middle class kids do?
>
>So your saying blackmiddle and black
>poor kids don't fear pregnancy?
>I doubt that any poor
>kid, regardless of color, wants
>their kid to grow up
>in the conditions they grew
>up in.

70% of Black children are born to Un-married mothers.

People in the inner cities are still having children, are they not? So obviously they either wanted the children, or they weren't careful. You would think that someone who doesn't want their kids to grow up in the conditions they did would be the MOST vigilant when it came to birth control.

I'm saying that inner city youth don't fear pregnancy anywhere near as much as suburban kids do. I've got two step-cousins with 5 kids between them (Neither one is old enough to drink) because the guy wouldn't use condoms and they didn't protest.

You rarely get away with that shit in the burbs, and if you do, the girl is on the Pill, it's a one time thing and she gets the morning after pill the next day....hell I know people who've got the morning after pill "just to be safe" when they did use a condom.

>>
>>I've never heard of inner city
>>kids hiding their pregnancies, or
>>killing their babies because they're
>>afraid of their parents finding
>>out.
>>
>But you didn't grow up in
>the inner city, and i
>knew a few girls that
>jumped down stairs, duched to
>no end with pepsi, and
>got into fights just to
>loose a kid. As a
>matter of fact I went
>to a prodomenately white school
>to make sure I didn't
>get pregnant.

What about the girls that didn't?

70% of Black children are born into single parent homes.

It seems that you're in the minority.


>One Factor, what factor and do
>only black and latinos hold
>that factor?

When you look at the fact that those populations have MUCH higher pregnancy rates due to unprotected sex, it stands to reason that they are going to have MUCH higher disease transmission rates.

One is a symptom/indicative of the other.


>>Who said anything about promiscuity? Even
>>with a lower level of
>>sexually activity then Whites, ONE
>>factor that is going to
>>promote aids transmission in the
>>Black community can cause much
>>higher rates.
>>
>What FACTOR? You make it sound
>like we have a special
>gene that connects us to
>AIDS.

Read Above.


>>Interracial dating is still a small
>>% of all relationships, and
>>when it happens it occurs
>>between people of similar socio-economic
>>backgrounds.
>Thats a damn lie. I know
>plenty of black men and
>women in lower social groups
>who are dating and married
>to whites of higher social
>groups. Maybe you thought i
>meant relationship as dating. Not
>so, I'm talking about people
>kicking it or just having
>casual sex, which I'm seeing
>to be a main purpose
>for many in interacial relationships.

What inner-racial relationships? Aren't they mostly just "kicking it" and casual sex?

Regardless:

Whites of higher social groups are more likely to use protection.

The majority of interracial relationships involve people of similar social class, they may not have "grown up" in the same social class, but when they're dating, they themselves are in a similar social class. The reason for this is that our society is still fairly segregated and most white people have somewhat of a problem with interracial dating, so the opportunities and the inclination to do date outside your race isn't always there.

Your preception of the purpose interracial dating, is more or less irrelevant to this discussion.

In the end, interracial dating is still a small percentage of all dating.

>
>So a Black Youth
>>(Like me) who grows up
>>in a White Suburban community,
>>is going to benefit from
>>the education and resources available
>>as well as being influenced
>>by that community's attitudes on
>>sex and pregnancy.
>>
>Now what if those resources where
>available in black communities as
>well. Do you think we
>would have the high rate
>of AIDS or pregnancy? See
>this is the secret that
>i was talking about. Although
>its not a secret, it
>is still NOT available to
>black communities and if you
>think i'm lying go to
>a inner city black community
>such as the south or
>west side of Chicago and
>tell me how many resources
>you see.

Then it's not a secret, it's a resource issue which affects poor White communities as well.

AND, since these people could use Condoms (Which they know exist) get on the pill themselves and in general aren't as concerned with birth control, there needs to be a paradigm shift in values, moreso then an increase in the amount of resources.

Because it's not like you can't hop on the buss and go to a PP that's not in your community, or get in your car and drive there.

People around me do it all the time.

>>Black communities (The ones I
>>assume you're referring to) date
>>White Women?
>You'd probably be surprised, but I
>wouldn't. Also considering you went
>to college and I'm guessing
>lived on a campus, tell
>me how many of the
>black guys who dated(had sex)
>with white girls where of
>middle class? A guy could
>be from the Icky's (projects),
>but how would you know
>that if he didn't tell
>you? How many white girls
>would tell a black guy
>no simply because he is
>from the inner city.

Read above on your parent's social class vs. your own.

When I was in college, yes there were Black guys dating White girls, it didn't matter where they came from, because we all were at the same school.

BUT:

Protection was used, especially when the was a danger of carrying a mixed race baby and the girl in question was trying to piss off her parents or have a "chocolate fantasy", and didn't have a genuine interest in the guy.

There was a small % of women who dated Black Men, and only a slightly larger % who would consider it if the right guy came along, Read: Someone of a similar background who they perceived as being "just like them" but of a different skin color. So Brothas like me had maybe 4% more options then someone from the inner city.

In the end though, it's not like 100% of the white female student body would Date Black men, especially when I know of some Brothas who hooked up with a white girl who wouldn't admit it the next day.

See, you date one Black guy and you become the White Girl who dates Black guys, or other White guys feel inadaquate in simply talking to you next time you're single.....some women weren't ready to make that leap.




>How many of
>>those White Women sleep with
>>these guys and don't engage
>>in safe sex?
>>
>I'm not in the bedroom with
>them so hell if i
>know, however someone must not
>be using protection considering the
>birht of interracial babies is
>not at a low.

Not likely in a college or suburbanite situation, what makes you think they're going to say: "Oh, it's a Brotha, no condoms tonigh!" Do you think Black men have super sperm that breaks through birth control, or that White Women are somehow immune to HIV?

No.

Those interracial babies are typically born to people who are married/in serious relationships, not quite the same thing as a child born to a single mother.

Still, there are still a small % of all births.

>>The White Gay Male community was
>>the primary focus of a
>>lot of the education towards
>>preventing the spread of aids
>>and was the community with
>>the greatest amount of vigilance
>>aimed towards preventing its spread.
>>On top of that, other
>>communities who weren't educated about
>>its spread, were operating under
>>the assumption that it was
>>a "Gay Disease".
>>
>This leads us back to resources
>and availability 101. What good
>is it to have an
>antedote (information) that could prevent
>you from dying and holding
>it from you.

It's not about holding, it's about funding and economics, since these factors affect white communities too. STILL, some of the onus has to be placed on Black people who aren't making the effort to make birth control a priority.

My last girlfriend got her pills from PP, there isn't one around where we lived, So we got in my car and drove there, just like someone from West Philly could've got on the bus and done the same, or just walked down the street to Rite Aid and bought a box of Trojans.

I recognize the lack of resources, but I also recognize that people are not making the effort to use the resources they DO have.

How can you decide to have sex, knowing it can get you pregnant, knowing you are NOT ready to bring life into the world and not take precautions and act like if something happens, "it's just life"?!

Let's think on that for a second. It's thanksgiving, people younger then me with kids roll up to my Mom's place for dinner, a lot of whom are on "some" public assistance, not married, the man (or woman) is no where to be found.....I'm single.....and they're talking to Me, like I'M the one who is "weird" because I somehow escaped having children, telling me that I can't decide not to have kids because kids "just happen" that "it's life" that it's ridiculous for me not to date so and so because she has a kid....opinions that are echoed by many of their friends and people who live around them......

.......you don't think they need a paradigm shift with regards to their thinking, moreso then resources?!

C'mon.


>But you see whites in general
>where given the upper hand
>becuase they were given the
>information, however it was kept
>from blacks and browns unitl
>sometime later, then suddenly the
>information is giving to us.
>Well is just a little
>too damn late and this
>occurs with every and anything
>dealing with black people. A
>prime example is the tuskeegee
>experiment. Not only was information
>held back from these men,
>but the damn cure was
>too. Once bitten 2wice shy.
>Who's to say the same
>thing isn't occuring now.

It's called economics and funding, poor whites have very high single parent rates too, high rates of disease, and suffer from a lot of the same attitudes/lack of information that cause it.

My Jr. Year my family moved and I went to a high school that was 80% low income whites, instead of 80% high income Whites, a lot of the same shit, just with a different skin color. The only difference is that *some* of the problems were offset by having *slightly* more economic resources.....but in the end, it's the same shit.




Peace,







M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

Aight, I can't resist this anymore.

Two points.

#1. On Feminism.

Expertise is right. Single-female-headed householdness has much more to do with feminism and women's rights movement than slavery, which is why you see a boom in SFH households all over the world after the Sixties. The prime reason that it's less so among white Americans than black Americans is that the wage differential among black people is narrower than among white people. Narrower the gap, the more likely women are to be married.

As an aside, it's also true that there were a huge number of lesbians in second wave feminism, see Betty Friedan on the Lavendar Menace or any history book. It's for the same reason lesbians have been grossly overrepresented in American progressive social movements of all kinds (see Faderman): no babies=more time. It's also true that the movement women were largely white, but we shouldn't whitewash history, from Alice Walker to Barbara Smith to Audre Lorde, many black women were involved. See Sisterhood is Global. And as for actual support for women's liberation:
http://www.prospect.org/print/V11/9/mansbridge-j.html


#2.

>The people who says this are
>predominantly lower income/blue collar Black
>people who grew up in
>and around the inner cities.


I took a look at some state by state comparisons and teen pregnancies rates were much much higher in the South (missippi, missouri etc) than in the North, so I don't know about the inner city. But I'm glad you brought class into it, because...


I've got two step-cousins
>with 5 kids between them
>(Neither one is old enough
>to drink) because the guy
>wouldn't use condoms and they
>didn't protest.


How in God's name can you say this out of one side of your mouth and then say "as a Black man I'm not going to kid myself and say that society isn't more friendly to Black women then it is to Black men, because that's not true" out of the other. These girls didn't tell the guy to go fuck themselves because they based their self-esteem/hopes/etc on his approval. Their souls were crushed, as a black person, as a girl, as someone who is poor, as someone whose worth is defined by having a man, as someone who doesn't have that many other ways to get approval. Society made her want his attention more than she wanted to protect herself. And the poorer she is, the more isolated she is, the less hope she has, the more she is likely to give in. And then after she has a kid or two, she has a locus of female worth, and can assert herself. This is what the patriarchy *does*.





-----------------------------------
The odds still favor croupiers,
But give the wheel another spin.
Things break down in different ways:
We can't, for that, omit their praise.
--Tom Disch, Entropic Villanelle

>Expertise is right. Single-female-headed householdness
>has much more to do
>with feminism and women's rights
>movement than slavery, which is
>why you see a boom
>in SFH households all over
>the world after the Sixties.
> The prime reason that
>it's less so among white
>Americans than black Americans is
>that the wage differential among
>black people is narrower than
>among white people. Narrower
>the gap, the more likely
>women are to be married.

I don't think women are deciding to raise their children on their own and not get married, if anything they are simply not taking the first person with an X chromosome that comes along, I think a woman waiting for a good man is better then her taking any man.

PLUS, what does that have to do with the man leaving and not having any influence in the child's life?

Or people being irresponsible and making kids that they can't take care of?

SO, I don't think it's all that relevant.

>As an aside, it's also true
>that there were a huge
>number of lesbians in second
>wave feminism, see Betty Friedan
>on the Lavendar Menace or
>any history book. It's
>for the same reason lesbians
>have been grossly overrepresented in
>American progressive social movements of
>all kinds (see Faderman):
>no babies=more time. It's
>also true that the movement
>women were largely white, but
>we shouldn't whitewash history, from
>Alice Walker to Barbara Smith
>to Audre Lorde, many black
>women were involved. See Sisterhood
>is Global. And as
>for actual support for women's
>liberation:
>http://www.prospect.org/print/V11/9/mansbridge-j.html

I'm saying though, when people say: "Lesbianism" they say it as if it has everything to do with pushing some sort of Lesbian agenda and not doing something to help women as a whole.

What if most of the Men involved in the Civil rights movement were Gay, would that make their work any less significant or valid to our lives today?


>#2.
>
>>The people who says this are
>>predominantly lower income/blue collar Black
>>people who grew up in
>>and around the inner cities.
>
>
>I took a look at some
>state by state comparisons and
>teen pregnancies rates were much
>much higher in the South
>(missippi, missouri etc) than in
>the North, so I don't
>know about the inner city.
> But I'm glad you
>brought class into it, because...
>
>
>
> I've got two step-cousins
>>with 5 kids between them
>>(Neither one is old enough
>>to drink) because the guy
>>wouldn't use condoms and they
>>didn't protest.
>
>
>How in God's name can you
>say this out of one
>side of your mouth and
>then say "as a Black
>man I'm not going to
>kid myself and say that
>society isn't more friendly to
>Black women then it is
>to Black men, because that's
>not true" out of the
>other. These girls didn't
>tell the guy to go
>fuck themselves because they based
>their self-esteem/hopes/etc on his approval.
> Their souls were crushed,
> as a black person,
>as a girl, as someone
>who is poor, as someone
>whose worth is defined by
>having a man, as someone
>who doesn't have that many
>other ways to get approval.
> Society made her want
>his attention more than she
>wanted to protect herself.
>And the poorer she is,
>the more isolated she is,
>the less hope she has,
>the more she is likely
>to give in. And
>then after she has a
>kid or two, she has
>a locus of female worth,
>and can assert herself.
>This is what the patriarchy
>*does*.

I wasn't talking about how MEN are treating women with respect to pregnancies, relationships, and Man/Woman dynamics.

I was talking about barriers to success, with respect to more Black women going to college, becoming professionals, being financially stable, etc.





Peace,







M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

>I've never heard of inner city
>kids hiding their pregnancies, or
>killing their babies because they're
>afraid of their parents finding
>out.

I wonder why that is...

It also seems to me that inner city youth are more aware of std's in a sense (especially HIV/AIDS...maybe because of the prevalence of drug use in major cities & the likelihood of having a family member/acquaintance/friend infected) and less afraid of having babies.

I don't know which is worse.

_________________________________________________________
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>Do you actually think that the
>fates of blacks and white
>in this country aren't intertwined?
>
>
>What happens to one....sooner or later
>happens to the other.

TRUE THAT, JUST LOOK AT RICKI LAKE SHOW, MORE AND MORE YOUNG WHIT KIDS ARE ON THIS SHOW ACTING LIKE GHETTO BLACK FOLKS...

"Niggas mad cause Ibrags about the cash I got, but I'm used to not havin alot, I'm from the gutter and ohh..."-Jay-Z

"Expensive shoes worn, Loui Viton see-through gone, CoChes, my face is like a coupon..."Jay-Z

O thats right, white kids don't act bad, they don't do bad stuff right. O wait a minute acting black IS acting bad. Okay I get it now.
So does that mean that when black kids act white their acting good? And if so if black kids act black are they acting bad?
Hold on it just came to me, ghetto is black.

Well wadda ya know.

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black women were not a big part of "women's lib". they were more concerned with survival than their rights.

however, had you said "integration", i might be a little more inclined to agree because of the various economic, psychological & sociological factors involved. (new closeness with the mainstream culture, flight to the suburbs, etc)

_________________________________________________________
"even isis knew heartbreak..."

need a hero? http://www.ghettosake.com
wanna say hi? AIM: LadyDay78

~~~~
http://omidele.blogspot.com/
http://rahareiki.tumblr.com/
http://seatofbliss.blogspot.com/

with that is that family breakdown was not evident in any spector of American society until then.

Hence, I dont think it was integration that necessarily did it. However, indirectly that could be a fraction of it, since the move for integration was what allowed for more liberal expression. Not just feminism and collectivist thought, but the so-called "sexual revolution" as well.

_________________________
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_____________________________________________
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_________________________
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.....there wasn't a Black Family.

The concept of a Black family during slave times is disabused by the fact that your family members could be sold/taken away from you at any time and Blacks were treated like chattle.

Blaming "feminism" and liberal thinking is nothing more then a scape goat....for this one simple fact:

If liberalism & feminism destroyed so called "family values" in this country, then that means that the "family values" that existed, were only there because certain members of our society (Women) had no choice but to live a certain lifestyle.

Your point would be more valid if women had all the same options and rights men did leading up to the 60s.

In other words, it was a fragile house of cards that was bound to fall at some point, it was inevitable that at some point women would demand more rights/options and start pursuing them.

If the straw Breaks the camel's back, you don't blame the Straw, you recognize that the Camel had a bad back beforehand.

Other Thoughts:

If you talk to a lot of Blacks who were born into single parent homes, say in the last 30 years, you will find out that their parents and their parents and parents were ALSO born into single parent homes and the pattern is simply repeating itself.

Within the Black community at least, you have to give this some weight....and since these patterns go back to Slave times, it's logical to postulate that slavery had to have SOME effect, no?

Also, just due to prevailing social attitudes, people weren't as likely to admitt that they were having kids out of wedlock. They might avoid a hospital OR they may lie and claim they WERE married.

Before my mother's generation broke the cycle, three generations before her claimed to be married when they had their kids, as did other people around them......that skews the statistics significantly, don't you think?

A lot of single women were having kids and claiming their husbands "were in the army".

Socio-economic status:

Growing up, particularly in high school I was sort of in Limbo between people of different socio-economic status. I grew up middle class, but I had poorer relatives that I interacted with, during my high school years I went from the yuppie spawn high school to a high school that was mostly made up of Blue Collar and lower income kids.....the people in my neighborhood were of the same income level as my parents, but most of the kids at my high school weren't.

Something I noticed:

Hardly any my college classmates or middle class classmates from high school have a child (I'm 26) not one single child, people have just started getting married, but no one is having children yet.

The people I know who DO have kids, were Seniors when I was a freshman, making them 29-30 and their kids were born within the last 12 months.

I know ONE couple where the woman got pregnant out of wedlock....but they were Seniors in college...hell it didn't even stop her from setting scoring records in field hockey.....they graduated, got married, walked into professional life.....no muss, no fuss.

Now my poorer relatives/classmates, plenty of kids as teens and/or out of wedlock, lots of single parent homes, or "Baby Mama/Daddy" situations, there are some marriages, but that's not the prevailing pattern. These people look at me like I'm a mutant or a virgin since I don't have kids by age 26.

Due to the extreme split in attitudes/patterns in different socio-economic groups with respect to having children early, especially when the more affluent people tend to be more liberal and feminist minded...indicates to me that it's all not about feminism and liberalism.

Because feminist & liberal daughters of college educated parents, aren't likely to become pregnant in high school or college.

While daughters of plumbers who are conservative believers in family values.....are.

In other words, it's SOOOOO much more complicated then blaming liberalism and feminism.




Peace,








M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

maybe not during slavery, but once slavery was out black people were marrying, and were joining together in families. There have been plenty of stories where slaves from different plantations found each other after emancipation and then moved together for another life. A prime example of this was Booker Washington, who's real mother got together with a man from a nearby plantation and moved to West Virginia.

Maybe broken families are a fixture in your family, but I know they aren't for mine and for folks I knew growing up and even today, and distant census reports would say the same as well. Starting in the 70's, a majority of black men remained single, and only until the late 60's was there a majority of children born unto single parents. Common knowledge would attest to this, because I know for the longest in the South, where most blacks have and continue to live, that didn't fly. If you got someone pregnant, you had better married the girl. Most of the time if it was a single parent family, it was because one of the parents had died, most likely the man.

To think that black people stayed single through American history after Emancipation is very unrealistic, considering the tightly held values in American society pre-1950's. Blacks did indeed assimilate alot of the values and beliefs that affect us even today, which is why Christianity is a stronghold within the black community even today. Most everyone I know had connections to the black church, hence it's not unrealistic to think that would help to mend the family bonds that were broken by slavery.

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>maybe not during slavery, but once
>slavery was out black people
>were marrying, and were joining
>together in families. There
>have been plenty of stories
>where slaves from different plantations
>found each other after emancipation
>and then moved together for
>another life. A prime
>example of this was Booker
>Washington, who's real mother got
>together with a man from
>a nearby plantation and moved
>to West Virginia.

A couple of examples don't make the rule.......

>Maybe broken families are a fixture
>in your family, but I
>know they aren't for mine
>and for folks I knew
>growing up and even today,
>and distant census reports would
>say the same as well.

Like I said, the Census reports could be/are likely skewed.

Not all Blacks live in the South and even if they did, it doesn't mean Single parent homes wouldn't occur. Like I said, talk to people who were born into Single parent homes in the last 30 years and ask them if their parents were born into the same situation.....a lot of people are continuing/breaking the single parent cycle, not starting it.

It's nice that around you most people had two parents, but that's not the case for lot of other communities...like I said, the patterns started long ago, they aren't new. Just talk to people who were born into single parent homes in the last 30-40 years.

Not to insult your faith, but I don't think the presence of a church in someone's life community will automatically decrease the number of teenage/single parent pregnancies, teenage pregnancy rates are typically higher in Bible Belt states.

http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/teen_preg_stats.html

Alabama, Georgia, Kentucky, North Carolina, Mississippi & Tennesee ALL have higher pregnancy rates then New York, Connecticut, Massachusets, Pennsylvania, & Maryland.....almost double in most cases.

There is a reason for the difference and it isn't rates of teen sex.




Peace,





M2

The Blog: http://www.analyticalwealth.com/

An assassin’s life is never easy. Still, it beats being an assassin’s target.

Enjoy your money, but live below your means, lest you become a 70-yr old Wal-Mart Greeter.

>>maybe not during slavery, but once
>>slavery was out black people
>>were marrying, and were joining
>>together in families. There
>>have been plenty of stories
>>where slaves from different plantations
>>found each other after emancipation
>>and then moved together for
>>another life. A prime
>>example of this was Booker
>>Washington, who's real mother got
>>together with a man from
>>a nearby plantation and moved
>>to West Virginia.
>
>A couple of examples don't make
>the rule.......

It's not just a "few" examples, there is plenty of literature that describes how blacks created families and lived together after slavery.

>Like I said, the Census reports
>could be/are likely skewed.

And your proof is?

>Not all Blacks live in the
>South and even if they
>did, it doesn't mean Single
>parent homes wouldn't occur.

I didn't say either one of these. I said a majority of blacks live in the South, which they do and always have. I never said there weren't black single parent homes. I was implying that there weren't as many as most people think pre-1960, nor was there a majority like today.

Like
>I said, talk to people
>who were born into Single
>parent homes in the last
>30 years and ask them
>if their parents were born
>into the same situation.....a lot
>of people are continuing/breaking the
>single parent cycle, not starting
>it.

But why ask them and not the married ones? Isn't that a little one-sided?

Besides, simply going off of mere hearsay based on time periods that were over 50 years ago is not going to prove anything, and it definitely isn't going to trump actual statistics that were made at that time and are going to be more valid. Does Census statistics have numbers right on the money? No. But that doesn't mean they are going to be that far off either.

A concentration of black people live in the Southeastern United States, even today:

http://www.census.gov/geo/www/mapGallery/images/black.jpg

And the Census Bureau reported for African-American History Month that 54% of Black people live in the South.

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/2002/cb02ff01.html

>Not to insult your faith, but
>I don't think the presence
>of a church in someone's
>life community will automatically decrease
>the number of teenage/single parent
>pregnancies, teenage pregnancy rates are
>typically higher in Bible Belt
>states.
>http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/teen_preg_stats.html
>
>Alabama, Georgia, Kentucky, North Carolina, Mississippi
>& Tennesee ALL have higher
>pregnancy rates then New York,
>Connecticut, Massachusets, Pennsylvania, & Maryland.....almost
>double in most cases.

That's because those states you mentioned are more densely populated than the Southern states, which are larger in size. Hell, New York and Pennsylvania almost outpopulate all 6 of those states put together.

New York + Pennsylvania = 31,257,511 (according to the 2000 Census
Southern States = 33,258,576

So, of course when you're comparing a state like New York, or Pennsylvania, with 31 million people in between both of them, to North Carolina and Georgia, the two biggest Southern states, in which New York's population more than triples each state alone, you're going to find what you want to find.

I continued to look at that website. Found an interesting little ditty:

http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/ib_welfare00.html

Their stats say teenage pregnancies rose sharply in the 60's. Well imagine that.

And they coincide with the Census statistics:

http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0020/table2.html

That state that there was a sharp rise in births out of wedlock in the United States during the 60's, particularly to black people.

No matter how you place it, this so-called "legacy of slavery" lie to explain current trends in single families in the black community is one of the biggest falsehoods out there today and only serves to shame our ancestors while removing the convictions of personal accountability on today's youth in an attempt to blame something else on whitey. It's a shame when black people will freely call their own ancestors who fought for freedom and strived to make a better life for them to live nothing more than dog-like whores. Pathetic.