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Subject: "Black Panther: Wakanda Forever discussion post" Previous topic | Next topic
bwood
Member since Apr 03rd 2006
8304 posts
Tue Nov-08-22 01:10 PM

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"Black Panther: Wakanda Forever discussion post"


  

          

Saw this shit last night in IMAX.

First let me start by saying all you recast T'Challa niggas look real fucking stupid right now. This film greatly honors his legacy both as Chadwick the actor AND T'Challa the character. The mid-credits scene is gonna have y'all eating Crow. Honestly, that mid-credits scene is SO good that going forward Marvel should cut that shit out.

This is not as good as the first one, but it's still a great film and easily the best of Phase Four so far.

My main gripe here is Namor. I have no problems with them changing his background as it's still true to the character. However, he's just Killmonger Part Two. Like Erik, I agree with him, but damn if this didn't feel like the same shit. Loved seeing the kingdom of Talokan as it's visually breathtaking, but it slows the movie down and should've been saved for Namor's own film or show (don't kid yourself, it's gonna happen).

I wish this just stuck to a geopolitical thriller with the world trying to invade Wakanda and mine vibranium from the nation. Would've been dope if U.S. Agent was the villain of the movie working on behalf of the United Nations to destabilize Wakanda playing into the colonization themes.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus' character Allegra is here full force. I still don't like the character and the way she's used here, she should've been the Amanda Waller in this film dispatching other supers and playing the destabilizing game from the shadows.

I do love that all the women are front and center. It's rare to see a movie of this size show black women like this. Smart, strong, and capable heroes. Riri Williams leaps off the page even if her and her part of the story could've been cut.

This is easily the best film of Phase Four with Spider-Man: No Way Home close behind. It's a lot to take in on the first watch and a tad too long, but this is a worthy follow-up to the first film. This has a distinction if being only the second Marvel sequel where it acts as a direct sequel to the first film than the Avengers movie that proceeded it. The other one is The Winter Soilder. All the themes setup in the first are explored here and they make explicit references to the first with only one mention of Thanos (thank God).

With the mid-credits scene in play, I can't wait to what Black Panther 3 is.

------------------------------------------
America from 9:00 on: https://youtu.be/GUwLCQU10KQ

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
For the record...
Nov 08th 2022
1
Is the 2:41 run time too long?
Nov 08th 2022
2
Just stay home
Nov 10th 2022
5
      I *asked* if it needs to be that long
Nov 11th 2022
6
           It definitely doesn't *need* to be that long.
Nov 11th 2022
12
           Probably a good way to put it.
Nov 12th 2022
16
           I think then lenght was well used
Nov 13th 2022
23
           He has this weird obsession with defending Marvel movies.
Nov 11th 2022
14
                Nope, sorry, the only one who “lost their shit” there was you
Nov 12th 2022
15
                     You're out of line...
Nov 12th 2022
17
                          Lol if I had a dollar for wvery time someone pulled some shit like that ...
Nov 12th 2022
18
honestly i just want a bad ass namor. is he not that?
Nov 08th 2022
3
RE: honestly i just want a bad ass namor. is he not that?
Nov 10th 2022
4
RE: honestly i just want a bad ass namor. is he not that?
Nov 11th 2022
7
that shit was dope af
Nov 11th 2022
8
It's easily one of the best films of this current phase
Nov 11th 2022
9
... pretty low bar to clear.
Nov 11th 2022
10
Better than recent ones, still suffers from a number of problems.
Nov 11th 2022
11
I agree with just about all of this
Nov 11th 2022
13
For you and other folks that saw the movie
Nov 14th 2022
24
      CGI wasn't on Avengers' movies level
Nov 14th 2022
26
      CGI isn't terrible, but it is rushed
Nov 14th 2022
28
      There's one underwater scene that was particularly bad IMO
Nov 14th 2022
30
      I mean, the coffin getting levitated into the spaceship...
Nov 14th 2022
32
      At the beginning of the movie, definitely.
Nov 14th 2022
31
           Thanks for the responses everyone.
Nov 16th 2022
51
Coogler's such a G.
Nov 12th 2022
19
They hit every note they needed to hit.
Nov 13th 2022
20
Honestly, MCU's most disappointing film (MAJOR SPOILERS)
Nov 13th 2022
21
I kind of think it was really good
Nov 13th 2022
22
Y'all are just anti-Black. Good grief.
Nov 14th 2022
25
Wouldn't say disappointing, but some points are fair. Some not..
Nov 14th 2022
27
      For one, T'Challa had Shuri running support.
Nov 14th 2022
29
           I don't think you build a franchise around Shuri.
Nov 16th 2022
52
                Maybe. All I know is, she showed & proved here.
Nov 18th 2022
57
I loved it. But there’s no way does numbers like the first BP.
Nov 14th 2022
33
They pulled off the damn near impossible
Nov 15th 2022
34
I was really impressed with how they handled grief/mourning in this
Nov 15th 2022
35
I watched part of that scene last week
Nov 15th 2022
36
      If I recall correctly...
Nov 15th 2022
37
           so what's an example of GOOD CGI?
Nov 15th 2022
38
           You asked Frank Longo, not me
Nov 15th 2022
39
                Cosign The Boys.
Nov 15th 2022
42
           This isn't something I care that deeply about
Nov 15th 2022
40
                This is 100% spot on.
Nov 15th 2022
41
                     I gotta agree.
Nov 15th 2022
43
                     I pray that Ant Man 3 and GOG 3 at least live up to the hype
Nov 16th 2022
44
                     Some of the shots in that Ant-Man 3 trailer...
Nov 16th 2022
49
                          Yeah, the ANT-MAN trailer is ROUGH
Nov 16th 2022
53
                          yeah I'm hoping Majors plays the role so well
Nov 16th 2022
54
                     Whenever I see "bad cgi" I ask "Does this look it could be in a comic bo...
Nov 16th 2022
46
                     The Marvel Universe expansion...
Nov 16th 2022
45
                     Out of curiosity
Nov 16th 2022
50
                          You, me, everybody © Yasiin Bey
Nov 17th 2022
55
                     So we elevated popular art and capital did its thing
Nov 16th 2022
47
                          Well, here's what the optimist would say.
Nov 16th 2022
48
                               That's pretty coherent to me
Nov 22nd 2022
58
Any movie with Apple slander is fine by me.
Nov 18th 2022
56
lol
Nov 28th 2022
59

CyrenYoung
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33423 posts
Tue Nov-08-22 03:18 PM

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1. "For the record..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=13465012&mesg_id=13465012&page=#13465319


*I'll wait a few more days before giving my full review, but its nice to see some appreciation shown for the way Chadwick's/T'Challa's character arc was handled.

Thank you.


*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...

  

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handle
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18210 posts
Tue Nov-08-22 05:37 PM

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2. "Is the 2:41 run time too long?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Or does it use it well?

------------


Gone: My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
43724 posts
Thu Nov-10-22 11:31 PM

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5. "Just stay home"
In response to Reply # 2
Thu Nov-10-22 11:39 PM by Cold Truth

  

          

You're really pressed over therun time of a movie that needs to accomplish like 5 things, chief among them honoring it's dead lead actor and main character.

What the do you think?
Of course it needs the run time.

Good god.

  

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handle
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Fri Nov-11-22 12:38 AM

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6. "I *asked* if it needs to be that long"
In response to Reply # 5


          

I just wanted to hear "Man, it's great and uses the time well."

But, as I read it, you think I'm dishonoring the dead with the question.

I RENTED A GODDAMN THEATRE I'll be in the complex for over 3:15, I'm anxious about it.

------------


Gone: My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
85807 posts
Fri Nov-11-22 03:00 PM

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12. "It definitely doesn't *need* to be that long."
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

As bwood alluded to above, there's a decent amount of time spent with characters who could've been cut outright from the movie. It's not 2 hours and 41 minutes spent focusing on the core group, there's also the usual Marvel table-setting.

For people who are happy to have narrative momentum sacrificed in order to continue the expansion of the greater universe, I'm sure they'll be fine with the runtime. For those who prefer the narrative momentum, yeah, you'll feel that the movie is stuffed with more than it probably needs.

For beer lovers: http://thebeertravelguide.com
For movie lovers: http://russellhainline.com

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
43724 posts
Sat Nov-12-22 01:16 AM

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16. "Probably a good way to put it. "
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

Personally, I think it’s a little odd to both rent out a theater and also be super concerned about the run time.

But yeah, mileage here will vary depending on whether or not you care about setting up other things. Personally, I think they wasted time on two characters in particular. They would have been better utilized as a post credit scene, based on what we got.

That said, I think a ling run time was a given, based on the sheer number of things they had to accomplish.

  

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handle
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Sun Nov-13-22 08:47 PM

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23. "I think then lenght was well used"
In response to Reply # 12


          

Lots of examination of emotion and grief.

I was worried about it being another Eternals or , lord forbid an Apatow inspired film.

My group had to RUN afterwards because they had kids and dogs and business to do - but not one complained about the film dragging.

------------


Gone: My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

  

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Sofian_Hadi
Member since Jan 03rd 2003
5035 posts
Fri Nov-11-22 07:03 PM

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14. "He has this weird obsession with defending Marvel movies."
In response to Reply # 6


          

Go look at the Ant Man thread. Its borderline obsessive. If you make one comment about a Marvel movie or ask a question he loses his shit. I'm starting to think he's a Kevin Feige burner account. He def has a Marvel sticker on his car.

---------------------------------------

"The world is before you and you need not take it or leave it as it was when you came in." - James Baldwin

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
43724 posts
Sat Nov-12-22 01:08 AM

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15. "Nope, sorry, the only one who “lost their shit” there was you"
In response to Reply # 14
Sat Nov-12-22 01:24 AM by Cold Truth

  

          

You’re just plain factually, objectively incorrect.

And I pointed out exactly how and why in that thread.

What’s funny is, I also said you’d wind up taking that into other posts- and here you are.

It’s clear that you’re considerably more bothered by the idea of someone defending these than I am about people who have issues with them.

And as you established, your real issue is with the studio itselt, and you’re so married to that issue that you can’t handle the idea that everyone isn’t as pissy as you about it. Writr a letter or some shit, start a change.org petition, whatever. All I know is, taking that anger out on me won’t fix it.

  

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CyrenYoung
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33423 posts
Sat Nov-12-22 03:37 AM

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17. "You're out of line..."
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

..and before you respond, please consider this:

You took the time to follow handle and address him in 2 separate threads, on 2 different boards, when he was merely asking the opinion of someone he considers a reputable source.

Like I said before: chill.


*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
43724 posts
Sat Nov-12-22 09:35 AM

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18. "Lol if I had a dollar for wvery time someone pulled some shit like that ..."
In response to Reply # 17
Sat Nov-12-22 09:36 AM by Cold Truth

  

          

I’ve had my name in whole ass posts specifically about me in gd like 5 times
AND had people use confession Wednesday to come at me

Don’t recall you riding to my rescue, so to speak. But maybe I missed one, who knows.

And far as Sofian- I’m right, and they’re incorrect. The shit they’re referencing in the Ant Man thread is nothing like what they’re saying.

But you’re the boss.

I’ll say this and leave it alone:

I’ll admit to not caring for handle, based on several of his over the top replies to me in political posts. So he irks me in general and I don’t mind needling him.

Yes, I’m being a petty asshole toward him and I acknowledge that you have a point, and I’ll leave it be with handle.

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
14912 posts
Tue Nov-08-22 05:49 PM

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3. "honestly i just want a bad ass namor. is he not that?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

------

  

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Mgmt
Member since Feb 17th 2005
21491 posts
Thu Nov-10-22 10:12 PM

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4. "RE: honestly i just want a bad ass namor. is he not that?"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

Same. I am interested in Namor

  

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bwood
Member since Apr 03rd 2006
8304 posts
Fri Nov-11-22 05:35 AM

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7. "RE: honestly i just want a bad ass namor. is he not that?"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

Yes

------------------------------------------
America from 9:00 on: https://youtu.be/GUwLCQU10KQ

  

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weaponry
Member since Jan 26th 2006
463 posts
Fri Nov-11-22 08:10 AM

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8. "that shit was dope af"
In response to Reply # 0


          

i enjoyed it a lot.

  

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Lach
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44050 posts
Fri Nov-11-22 02:08 PM

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9. "It's easily one of the best films of this current phase"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I liked it a lot better than Love & Thunder, Eternals, and Multiverse of Madness. It was long but didn't feel long like Eternals. The tribute to Chadwick was on point. The mid-credits scene was OH MY DAMN type. I really enjoyed it.

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
85807 posts
Fri Nov-11-22 02:34 PM

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10. "... pretty low bar to clear."
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

I agree though, lol.

For beer lovers: http://thebeertravelguide.com
For movie lovers: http://russellhainline.com

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
85807 posts
Fri Nov-11-22 02:56 PM

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11. "Better than recent ones, still suffers from a number of problems."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Starting with the good, the cast is just aces, top to bottom. Bassett is beastly, obviously, but Winston Duke is just *electric,* man. Every time he steps on screen-- really in anything-- the movie just absolutely roars to life. He just knows how to read a line and use his physicality to create something so distinctive in this universe.

And Coogler, while given a completely impossible task here, manages to still create some interesting dynamics her. The movie is absolutely at its best when the characters are just sitting and talking, because that's where Coogler's gift for dialogue and injecting more complicated themes than most superhero movies bother tackling comes into play.

That said, there's just too much movie here, and the pacing/engagement really lags as a result. Like, I get that part of this is having to rewrite the movie from starring your magnetic leading man to eulogizing him, and that's just... really fucking hard to make work in terms of keeping a movie's narrative together. But part of it is also the usual Marvel stuff. You have Shuri's personal story, you have the death of T'Challa, you have everything with Namor, you have the geopolitical thriller stuff, you have RiRi Williams, you have Allegra and the American CIA-- there's just too much movie here for the movie to maintain anything resembling momentum.

Also, I hate to say it, but Marvel continues to have its issues with special effects and action. Some shots here really work, other shots really, really, really don't. Some of the green screen is fairly appalling, and some of the CGI looks like the FX artists weren't given nearly enough time (which we know, via reporting, that they don't) to make it look coherent. And the action... look, there were a few moments that made me smile, but much of it is completely cut to shreds in editing. There's an early action sequence that's so choppily edited and poorly lit that it easily ranks among the worst, most unintelligible action of the MCU.

And the lighting-- look, I think the loss of Rachel Morrison as DP here really can't be understated. The first Black Panther is one of the best, if not the best looking movie in the MCU. And this one absolutely looks like a Disney+ show for much of its runtime-- flat, dimly lit, muddy digital visuals. (I wasn't surprised to find the cinematographer's last big project... was shooting a Disney+ Marvel show.)

Look, the things that don't work here, most of it deserves a pass, because I simply can't imagine planning an entire movie around one of the most charismatic actors in the franchise, having him die and publicly mourned, and then having to figure out how to re-work everything. It's... just such a daunting task. I don't think that the usual Marvel baggage (too much seed-sowing for future movies/TV shows, inconsistent FX/lighting) helped Coogler here-- but Coogler's script, the quieter scenes in particular, come across very well. I can't imagine he'll be back for Black Panther 3 (unless Disney suddenly decides to start giving more control over to their more talented filmmakers), but he'll be missed if he goes.

It's *probably* the best movie of Phase 4-- I liked the majority of Shang-Chi more than this, but the big CGI finale of Shang-Chi is so bad that it left a sour taste in my mouth. It's not as good as the first Black Panther, but it's also, again, an impossible task to make that happen. Chadwick Boseman is just a titanic loss for the franchise-- he's so much of what made the first one great, and while the eulogizing of him here is emotional and very nice, his absence is absolutely felt. I've no clue what they're going to do going forward with Black Panther 3-- the mid-credits scene certainly makes an interesting suggestion of what might happen-- but hopefully they keep most of this cast together, as this ensemble cast is easily the best of the MCU imo.

(Also, big shout out to Coogler and a character I won't spoil for having an absolutely *fantastic* one-liner near the very end of the movie. Love when a movie manages to have perhaps its best/funniest line as damn near the button to the film. A great example of Coogler finding ways to let the movie shine.)

For beer lovers: http://thebeertravelguide.com
For movie lovers: http://russellhainline.com

  

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spenzalii
Member since Jan 02nd 2004
10835 posts
Fri Nov-11-22 06:18 PM

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13. "I agree with just about all of this"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

I already see reviewers trying to tread lightly on this one, as trashing a movie that had to be remade because of a beloved actor lost to cancer, but here we are. It was a no-win situation here losing Boseman, and you can feel that the pain the characters are feeling is the same pain the actors are feeling. RiRi, Allegra and Ross could all be cut and it tightens the film, but I'd keep the CIA, if only because I love seeing RS on screen (mini spoiler for now). That may have given us more time to flesh out Namor, who's more antagonist than big bad, which works if you absolutely HAVE to have him in the movie. There were a lot of kids at the IMAX showing this morning, and some got a little scared at the final battle, but beyond that...

Bassett is so gangsta in this. Still makes me mad she never got to play Storm. Hell, they could cast her NOW and she'd kill it. Duke was stealing every scene he was in. There were a few surprises I'm glad they kept under wraps, which played quite well.

VFX are, well, spotty at best, which seems to be the norm more often than not. Gotta feed the machine, I guess, but QC definitely suffers. Makes me wonder how the other blue people will look next month, but that's another thread in due time. Didn't care for some of the suit/armor designs. The lighting is a mess, especially in any low light scene. I'm no armchair DP, but I surely wish they could have turned the contrast up on the screen...

Overall, the good overshadows the bad, and the movie is worth it, even if you're just there to say goodbye to T'Challa, Chadwick, or both. Ryan did about as much as he could to please his overlords at Disney/Marvel and deliver a touching tribute to his colleague and friend.

<-- Dave Thomas knows what's up...
__________________________

Jay: Look here homie, any nigga can get a hit record. This here is about respect.
Game: Like Gladys Knight.
Jay: Aretha Franklin.
Game: Word, I like her too.
Jay: Nigga...

  

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Numba_33
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18635 posts
Mon Nov-14-22 08:41 AM

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24. "For you and other folks that saw the movie"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

>Also, I hate to say it, but Marvel continues to have its
>issues with special effects and action. Some shots here really
>work, other shots really, really, really don't. Some of the
>green screen is fairly appalling, and some of the CGI looks
>like the FX artists weren't given nearly enough time (which we
>know, via reporting, that they don't) to make it look
>coherent. And the action... look, there were a few moments
>that made me smile, but much of it is completely cut to shreds
>in editing. There's an early action sequence that's so
>choppily edited and poorly lit that it easily ranks among the
>worst, most unintelligible action of the MCU.

Was the shoddy CGI bad enough to take you out of the movie? I'm on the fence on wanting to spend time and greenbacks for this flick (and to be honest, I'm still a bit weirded out on going into a movie theater despite the fact COVID has been tampered down a ton), but I saw some subpar CGI in the latest commercials for this that left a bad taste in my mouth.

Perhaps I'll go to an early Sunday morning matinee for this to save on the ticket price and to avoid huge crowds to minimize any COVID exposure.

"Sean sparks like John Starks, nah, Sean ball like John Wall" - Rest In Power Forever Sean Price.

  

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Lach
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44050 posts
Mon Nov-14-22 12:08 PM

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26. "CGI wasn't on Avengers' movies level"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

But it was way better than say the She-Hulk series which was epically bad to me which is expected given the She-Hulk budget compared to this. But again, the CGI like he said is a step behind what we saw in Phase 3.

  

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spenzalii
Member since Jan 02nd 2004
10835 posts
Mon Nov-14-22 01:44 PM

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28. "CGI isn't terrible, but it is rushed"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

Didn't take me out of the movie either time I saw it, but I was more aware of it on my second viewing and some parts are noticeably shaky. Not TV VFX levels by any means. IMAX level CGI? Not quite.

As far as going to the theater, I ABSOLUTELY understand. I may have been to the theater less than 5 times during the pandemic for the same reason. I saw this, No Way Home, and Maverick in my local IMAX theater with serious reservations. In all cases I was masked up and even tested days afterward just to make sure I was good and my family was good. When I took my wife and daughter to see the movie we went on an off day to a smaller theater with fewer people (the spot we went to Saturday to see BP wasn't 1/4 full for the time we bought the tickets, and we had reclining seats).

In my opinion, this one is absolutely worth seeing on the biggest screen you feel comfortable with. But if that screen is in your house, so be it.

<-- Dave Thomas knows what's up...
__________________________

Jay: Look here homie, any nigga can get a hit record. This here is about respect.
Game: Like Gladys Knight.
Jay: Aretha Franklin.
Game: Word, I like her too.
Jay: Nigga...

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
43724 posts
Mon Nov-14-22 02:24 PM

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30. "There's one underwater scene that was particularly bad IMO"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

spoilerish



When Namor was giving his speech on that badass throne of his, that scene looked horrible.

It would've been horrible for a D+ show.

But overall it was fine. I dug the Midnight Angel scenes, though Ironheart looked a little ehhhh for me.

But I was too engaged to really give a fuck.

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
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32. "I mean, the coffin getting levitated into the spaceship..."
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

>Not TV VFX levels by any means.

... like, I wondered if the team got orders to do that two weeks before the release date. Looked like something out of a CW show.

I generally agree, but that's honestly what makes it that much more baffling-- the fact that in *some scenes,* the effects fucking RIP. And then in others, they look fine/passable/what have you. And then in others, they're just real bad.

Like, I'm reminded of The Mummy Returns, a movie that also has 80% awesome special effects... it just so happens that the 20% includes the big finale, which is the only thing everyone remembers. And nothing in BP2 is as bad as the CGI on the Scorpion King, obviously... but the unevenness makes me wonder what adversity Marvel's FX teams were up against. (Outside of, y'know, Marvel refusing to pay them fairly and giving them major last-second adjustments, as has been reported several times.)

Fun fact, btw: there was a Corridor Digital video that asked the guy who made the Scorpion King in The Mummy Returns what happened, and he more or less said, if I recall correctly, that they didn't have access to The Rock to get a scan of his head-- he shot the stuff for the beginning of the movie but wasn't available for anything else. So they had to just kinda... do their best by looking at pictures and shit. And in 2001... doing your best without getting reference scans was basically impossible. That video gave some some perspective on bad FX-- namely, that it's insanely, insanely unlikely that any FX problems are because of the FX artists.

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
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31. "At the beginning of the movie, definitely."
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

Like, before I'm sucked into the plot, when the opening action is as absolutely awful as it is? It definitely leaves a sour taste in the mouth.

As others pointed out, once the movie is going and you start to get invested in plot, some of the bad CGI is not as much of a detriment, because you're engaged.

But I do think the lack of well-executed action combined with the often-dodgy CGI (and bad lighting) in the action is one of the biggest downfalls of this movie-- and, frankly, of many of the recent Marvel movies.

For beer lovers: http://thebeertravelguide.com
For movie lovers: http://russellhainline.com

  

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Numba_33
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51. "Thanks for the responses everyone."
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

I suppose I owe it to this thread to at least see this flick since I've made so many responses to a movie I haven't seen a second of.

I'll try to get a matinee ticket this or next weekend. I have a feeling I'll be upset spending $20+ dollars on this. I hope I'm not too far out the woods in terms of being caught up on lore because the last Marvel movie/show I watched was either the last Black Panther movie or Endgame (in the privacy/piracy of my own home). I don't remember which flick was more recent.

"Sean sparks like John Starks, nah, Sean ball like John Wall" - Rest In Power Forever Sean Price.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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19. "Coogler's such a G. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

That dude is a gift.

I've rant about this in about every big MCU movie release but Coogler and the Black Panther movies are the only MCU movies that know how to get the stakes right. Like in this one you wondering who would live in die in battles (almost never happens in early phase MCU movies), you get the costs of what would happen if they lose the battle (and you feel the real distinct possibility that they will lose the battle. And you have mixed feelings about who you are rooting for (you know you were thinking, maybe just Namor what he wants).

I feel like that's all Coogler. When I read it was HIS idea to retcon to make Namor and an Indigenous Person that's pure brilliance and 100% improves on the original material. Sidebar: Sometimes the changing the race of characters can feel a little virtue signal-lingly but when it actually changes the story and adds depth to characters who otherwise lacked it, *chef's kiss*.

Yeah the movie did ALOT, could have been 3 different movies and I defer to yall about the technical CGI shortcomings.

It's definitely the SADDEST MCU movie. but it honored Boseman well. I am sorry but I couldn't help but think that if they knew he was dying, they would have found a way for killmonger to survive the last movie.

All in, it's the best MCU movie I've seen this phase.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Sun Nov-13-22 04:27 PM

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20. "They hit every note they needed to hit. "
In response to Reply # 0
Sun Nov-13-22 04:41 PM by Cold Truth

  

          

That's the real feat here.

-Honor T'Challa
-Honor Chadwick Boseman
-Find a credible replacement for both
-Strike a reverent, respectful, mourning tone while giving us a fun adventure
-Introduce a new, highly revered character with his own mythology- and nail both
-Advance the existing characters and mythology, both in this film and going forward
-Give us real stakes
-Fit all that into the broader MCU

Even if you don't think they hit a home run with all of those, I'd say it's hard to argue that they didn't execute all of those at a relatively high level.

This was a tightrope act for the ages, and while not above reproach, it's an impressive accomplishment, particularly in light of the task at hand.

Spoilers






-Shuri's journey to the mantle was every bit as credible and engaging as T'Challa's. Frankly, hers was harder, and with far less room for error. And when she takes it, she owns it.

-Angela Bassett was fantastic. I won't be surprised if her monologue toward Okeye earns her a supporting actress nod. That and the fire she spit at the UN were both highlights.

-Ditto Danai Gurira and Winston Dukes. They both turned in stellar work in their roles. The supporting cast as a whole turned in just about the best work I can think of from a supporting cast in the MCU.

-I loved the political elements. Star Wars could stand to learn a thing or three from this. I wouldn't mind digging deeper into those elements going forward, the tribal council in particular.

-Riri was a breath of fresh air, and while I agree that she wasn't "necessary", she doesn't detract from this at all. She only added to the pot. Queen Ramonda's insistence on protecting her elevated both characters. Riri herself was an enjoyable, fun character. I'd have liked to have seen them dig a bit more on her being a Stark fangirl or something, to reference her comic relationship with Tony, but I digress; they already had a lot of lifting to do here. She neither slows things down or detracts from the main story here, and feels like a natural fit both in terms of her introduction, and her place within the rest of the film.

-Everett and Val weren't exactly wasted, but added very little, and we could have done the entire film without them. If there's anything that slowed the momentum of the narrative, I'd say it's them. But they were fine.

-Namor was extremely well executed, and will instantly top a lot of lists of best comic book villains. I loved that they kept him relatively ambiguous in the end. His comments at the end seemed to imply that he still has less than noble intentions toward Wakanda. His supporting cast didn't give me much to care about, but he chewed every second of scenery. His addition leaves a LOT to ponder going forward.

-That mid credit scene. That one got everyone in both theaters I was in (saw it Thursday and last night), and both crowds largely sucked.

But it was such a beautiful and exciting way to honor this character, and give him a legacy to carry through future films.

-The score hasn't gotten enough love. Or any attention at all, it seems, but it was such a critical element here. Rihanna's closing song in particular, the theme when Shuri arrives to the council as the Black Panther, the guitar-based songs throughout, all of it. The score felt as thoughtful and engaging as the story and performances.

-The writing absolutely shines in certain areas. Shuri's impassioned exhortation that she wants to burn the world down, and virtually everything said by Namor, M'Baku and Ramonda are great examples, and Namor's ultimatum after he kills Ramonda, and Okoye's response to Ramonda both struck a chord with me.

All in all, they hit every note they needed to hit. For whatever criticism there is, I don't see a credible argument that they didn't do a fine job on all the important elements of the story. If you don't feel every word of every line and every moment of the film, I get it.

But I'd guess most will, bare minimum, feel every letter of every word and every note of every chord of the love, mourning, and overall thoughtfulness that went into it.

  

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mrhood75
Member since Dec 06th 2004
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Sun Nov-13-22 07:06 PM

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21. "Honestly, MCU's most disappointing film (MAJOR SPOILERS)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

That doesn't mean it's bad, or that it's the worst of the MCU movies (there have certainly been worse), but I wanted this movie to be better than it was. Everyone certainly did their best and tried hard it doing the damn near impossible, but it wasn't enough overall.

Okay, first, the good: The absolutely honored Chadwick Boseman and T'Challa and their collective legacy. Overall, the Namor/Tolokan stuff was very well done. The production design/art direction was fantastic. Winston Duke/M'Baku was excellent, as was Danai Gurira/Okoye. As Lupita/Nakia in here limited screen time. And I thoroughly enjoyed the hallucinatory return of Killmonger.

The bad: the action wasn't all that good and occasionally incomprehensible. The stuff with the US Government/Martin Freeman/Juiie Louis-Dreyfuss was a waste of time beyond some minor world-building and setting up for the third movie. It was waaaay too damn long, which I usually dismiss as a criticism, but I felt it here. Wasn't slow, but it felt like they had at least half an hour of unnecessary stuff.

And, honestly, Shuri works much better a supporting character. I 100% get the decision to make her the focal point, and why they wrote the character this way given what happened, but it just didn't work for me. Even before the movie dropped, I'd hoped they were going to make LLupita/Nakia the next Black Panther, but from the first line of dialogue, it was obvious where the film was going.

But, hey, this movie made a shit-ton of money over weekend, so maybe I'm the asshole. Ad maybe Coogler can figure out how to make the third movie work better with Shuri as the central focus. I certainly want to like these films.

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handle
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22. "I kind of think it was really good"
In response to Reply # 21


          

Coming out of Dr. Strange 2 and Thor 4 this was a very well written and acted film.

The parallels it drew with Infinity War and the First BP film were pretty spot on.

Shuri starts down the Killmonger path and goes quite far until she finally does what her brother did with M'baku in the first challenge (and NOT Killmonger's way) and offers to coexist and ally with a potential enemy. And she did it even though Namor literally killed her mother just a day (or days) earlier.

She followed Tcahalla's lead and not Killmonger and not T'Chakas.

Will that decision come back to bite her and Wakanda? Quite possibly.

Shuri being Black Panther makes sense when we see she could follow her brother's example much more than any of the other characters. Nakia wouldn't be what was needed, and neither would M'baku. Who else was there?

Also I think the exploration of grief here was very well done here - something maybe Wandavision has done the best, and maybe Spiderman Far From Home.

I think Everett Ross was to set up either Armor Wars or Secret Wars AND to remind us/show the parallels of colonialism in Wakanda and the Yucatan.

------------


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Castro
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25. "Y'all are just anti-Black. Good grief. "
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

------------------
One Hundred.

  

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spenzalii
Member since Jan 02nd 2004
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Mon Nov-14-22 01:28 PM

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27. "Wouldn't say disappointing, but some points are fair. Some not.."
In response to Reply # 21


  

          


>
>The bad: the action wasn't all that good and occasionally
>incomprehensible. The stuff with the US Government/Martin
>Freeman/Juiie Louis-Dreyfuss was a waste of time beyond some
>minor world-building and setting up for the third movie. It
>was waaaay too damn long, which I usually dismiss as a
>criticism, but I felt it here. Wasn't slow, but it felt like
>they had at least half an hour of unnecessary stuff.


I think many will agree with this. I'm not mad at Martin and Julia be in the film, But you could cut them out and save 15 minutes or so easily, and still figure out how to plant the the seeds for Thunderbolts. I will say having Richard Schiff in the movie was well worth it. When he showed up I yelled 'Toby!!!'. a MCU/West Wing crossover is something nobody needs or asked for, but I'm here for it


>And, honestly, Shuri works much better a supporting
>character. I 100% get the decision to make her the focal
>point, and why they wrote the character this way given what
>happened, but it just didn't work for me. Even before the
>movie dropped, I'd hoped they were going to make LLupita/Nakia
>the next Black Panther, but from the first line of dialogue,
>it was obvious where the film was going.

If you think about it, her journey to being the Black Panther pretty much mimics T'Challa's journey from Civil War. Parent dies? Check. Going for revenge? Check. Showing mercy after realizing vengeance is consuming them? Check. Where's the difference? One could argue the stakes are higher for Shuri. But because we've seen T'Challa on a bigger stage and developed more between BP/IW/EG, some may forget it's pretty much the exact same thing.


>But, hey, this movie made a shit-ton of money over weekend, so
>maybe I'm the asshole. Ad maybe Coogler can figure out how to
>make the third movie work better with Shuri as the central
>focus. I certainly want to like these films.


Oh, this movie is making ALL the money until the other blue water people show up next month. I wouldn't call you or anybody an asshole for not exactly feeling Shuri as the linchpin for the role and franchise. But between established comic lore, real life tragedy and feeding the Disney/Marvel machine, it was a damn near impossible task for Coogler and Co. to attempt, and many may not like it, rightfully so. I have my reservations and dislikes for the movie as well, but I understand why many things are what they are and take the movie for what it is in the end.

Cotdamnit Angela was in boss mode. I saw it twice and each time her performance with Okoye had me in tears. That was some hard body shit, and I can't believe that passion and tears were just acting either.

<-- Dave Thomas knows what's up...
__________________________

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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Mon Nov-14-22 02:22 PM

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29. "For one, T'Challa had Shuri running support. "
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

>If you think about it, her journey to being the Black Panther
>pretty much mimics T'Challa's journey from Civil War. Parent
>dies? Check. Going for revenge? Check. Showing mercy after
>realizing vengeance is consuming them? Check. Where's the
>difference? One could argue the stakes are higher for Shuri.
>But because we've seen T'Challa on a bigger stage and
>developed more between BP/IW/EG, some may forget it's pretty
>much the exact same thing.

I see the parallels, but I am also in the camp that says she had a harder path to the mantel.

T'Challa had Shuri running support, which was a huge help. Shuri has herself for that. Riri was there to assist, but she was Riri's mentor at the same time, while also tasked with keeping her safe. She's also facing a tougher foe, all while mourning both her brother and mother- after working frantically to save her dying brother.

T'Challa had lost his father, but at least had some breathing room before Killmonger showed up.

Shuri lost *everyone* in her family. So I'd say the stakes are definitely higher here. Killmonger was a threat.

T'Challa also had the advantage of being groomed specifically for his role, from a very young age. This was forced on Shuri, out of virtually nowhere. Shit, she even create the heart-shaped herb just to get the mantle. T'Challa didn't have to do anything like that.

I think there are several factors that, viewed objectively, add up to a significantly steeper degree of difficulty for Shuri. The parallels are there, but at each turn, Shuri's iteration of it is much tougher.

>Cotdamnit Angela was in boss mode. I saw it twice and each
>time her performance with Okoye had me in tears. That was some
>hard body shit, and I can't believe that passion and tears
>were just acting either.

Angela owned this movie. I'll say it again: don't be shocked if she winds up with a supporting actress nod.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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52. "I don't think you build a franchise around Shuri. "
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

I get the focus on her and it worked very well for this film, but if she is the lead going forward for all Black Panther movies, I'd be a bit disappointed.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Cold Truth
Member since Jan 28th 2004
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57. "Maybe. All I know is, she showed & proved here. "
In response to Reply # 52


  

          

Can she carry a franchise? i don’t know.

She’s no Chadwick, but that’s a ridiculously high bar to clear.

She was great as a supporting character, and did a fine job here, But we’ll see how it goes going forward.

My post there was mostly addressing her in-story journey having a much steeper degree of difficulty. She had to deal a set of circumstances that dwarfs T’Challa’s by comparison.

  

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soulfunk
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Mon Nov-14-22 07:19 PM

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33. "I loved it. But there’s no way does numbers like the first BP. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

The best things in the movie aren’t exactly “fun” to watch - because it’s so much about grief both for T’Challa in universe and Chadwick in real life. So I can’t see people going to see it again and again the way they did for Black Panther.

That being said, it’s exactly what they needed to do. Was there some stuff that could have been cut out like Ross and Allegra? Yeah, but that’s the expectation at this point with the MCU because of so much content that is setup and referenced. Was some of the CGI a bit off? Yeah, but I could say the same thing for some of the CGI in the original. There are so many separate studios involved with effects for these films at this point that some scenes seem to fall through the cracks and look worse than others. But overall, I loved the movie. My family was all in for the entire three hours.

  

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Beamer6178
Member since Jan 09th 2006
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Tue Nov-15-22 09:48 AM

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34. "They pulled off the damn near impossible"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

With reality and fiction woven together inextricably. this ain't Sony and Marvel fighting over Spider-Man. This is the actual death of the titular role and the one who was going to LEAD the MCU for the foreseeable future, and who in real life, had built a hell of a resume in a short time, all brought to a tragic halt. There is no comparable scenario. Heath Ledger was an incredible talent, and him dying before Dark Knight impacted DKR, but he wasn't the lead character of the franchise, and Batman has always had a rogues' gallery of villains to lean on. As someone else said, not having the ability to bring Killmonger back, and having to forge heroes out of everyone else who is left earlier than they were planning for, nevermind still cope with the loss, just too much to ask. But they still did it.

The way in which they inserted Chadwick's battle into T'Challa's was painful, but masterfully done. The emotions were probably the easiest for them to convey since they were 100% authentic. But to do it in the work of fiction and still tell a story, a tall fucking order.

Regarding the movie: fuck the academy but Angela Bassett earned that damn supporting actress, nomination at the very least. People try to minimize the gravity of the personal stories told in comic book movies but there can be no better expression of grief and loss in a movie than how she did it.

The pacing was actually fine to me, they had a lot to get done, but the conflict between Wakanda and Talokan was too contrived. Like why would Namor go after a people that did them no wrong rather than the colonizing/settlers who were trying to tap the natural resources? With his age and what he saw, he had a better appreciation for imperialism than even the Wakandans could, and yet he went for the sucker shit. Would have been more interesting if they treated each other as third parties while dealing with white supremacy or if they fought each other over belief of who had rights to their special resources. Seeing Black and Brown/Blue people fight each other when white people STARTED the movie doing some devilish shit, was just so unnecessary. But maybe that was part of the point???

The ancestral plane sequence was a nice surprise, I expected to see Namor's mother or in a long shot, T'Challa. Mid-credit scene was basically predictable when calculating how long N'Kia had been gone and when Ramonda had something to tell Shuri before Namor first surfaced. Still a nice touch and leaves open a lot of possibilities.

Chadwick was too large a presence for this movie to have been "better," but I think it was about as good as they could have done with all they were up against and was legitimately a very strong effort. The first Marvel movie of 2022 worth actually watching. The BP and Captain America films have always been the best standalone of the MCU.


  

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pretentious username
Member since Jun 18th 2010
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Tue Nov-15-22 11:55 AM

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35. "I was really impressed with how they handled grief/mourning in this"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

They handled those topics better than any mcu project so far, even Endgame, so I rate it pretty highly for that alone. The moments that needed to breathe were given space to breathe while not grinding the story to a halt, which is what I was worried about. That grief was used to move the characters forward and allow them to grow. I loved Shuri’s evolution here.

I only noticed the long runtime when it came to the RiRi introduction. None of it was bad, but setting up a Disney+ show stuck out like a sore thumb for this movie moreso than other recent ones. Also felt weird to have an America side quest in a movie with 2 way more interesting locations already set up.

I didn’t notice the wonky CGI as much as others (I really disliked the CGI in T’Challa and Killmonger’s mine fight, so maybe I had already braced myself), but I almost laughed when they beamed up T’Challa’s casket. Holy shit, that was bad.

  

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Numba_33
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36. "I watched part of that scene last week"
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

>I didn’t notice the wonky CGI as much as others (I really
>disliked the CGI in T’Challa and Killmonger’s mine fight,
>so maybe I had already braced myself), but I almost laughed
>when they beamed up T’Challa’s casket. Holy shit, that was
>bad.

and while the CGI was pretty poor when both characters had their masks on, what partially saved that scene from standing out too much was the very dark background it took place in. It was almost as if the special effects crew knew the costumes looked too cartoon-ish and found a way to hide their errors.

"Sean sparks like John Starks, nah, Sean ball like John Wall" - Rest In Power Forever Sean Price.

  

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Frank Longo
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Tue Nov-15-22 12:19 PM

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37. "If I recall correctly..."
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

... one of the FX artists was on Corridor Digital's channel and said they were told to make massive changes from the originally planned fight to the final product. Marvel is kind of famous at this point for changing the location of scenes after they've been filmed, asking for lighting changes, asking for characters to be added/removed, etc.

I don't really blame Coogler or even the artists themselves for wonky CGI in this one or the first one-- it's pretty clearly a byproduct of Marvel truncating the time schedules, especially in pre-production, in order to release more content.

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Beamer6178
Member since Jan 09th 2006
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Tue Nov-15-22 01:31 PM

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38. "so what's an example of GOOD CGI? "
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

I am not technically astute at it, and seemingly folks don't like too much of it. Are there movies that have done it particularly well or that can be looked at the best way to do it???

  

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Numba_33
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39. "You asked Frank Longo, not me"
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

Nor is my example from a movie because I'm not a big movie buff these days, but the infamous mid-season fight scene between Soldier Boy, Homelander, Hughie, and Billy Butcher from the most recent season from The Boys would be an example of a fight scene that blends live action with CGI masterfully. The special effects were done well enough that it was completely plausible that four super powered humans were fighting each other despite the heightened actions that were going down.

If memory serves me right, a minimal amount of CGI was used for the scene since some stuff was done practically with wires, so maybe that's not the greatest example.

"Sean sparks like John Starks, nah, Sean ball like John Wall" - Rest In Power Forever Sean Price.

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
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Tue Nov-15-22 04:55 PM

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42. "Cosign The Boys."
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

They use a lot of real sets, a lot of practical effects, a lot of real stuntmen. The FX breakdowns of The Boys on Corridor Digital are really fascinating.

Everything just has weight on The Boys. Part of that is the storytelling, where if a motherfucker dies, we know they're unlikely to just be back in the sequel with a wave of the hand-- but part of it is the commitment to making the effects as practical/relatively "grounded" as possible.

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Numba_33
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40. "This isn't something I care that deeply about"
In response to Reply # 37
Tue Nov-15-22 02:30 PM by Numba_33

  

          

>I don't really blame Coogler or even the artists themselves
>for wonky CGI in this one or the first one-- it's pretty
>clearly a byproduct of Marvel truncating the time schedules,
>especially in pre-production, in order to release more
>content.

because I'm not a huge comic book movie fan and I don't plan to see these movies outside of rare occasions, but it sounds as if directors have to crank these movies out since storylines for future shows and movies are dependent on films coming out as quickly as possible. That's a shame the movies have to suffer as result of them being done in such a corporate time crunch basis, but I suppose I get it from having to deliver to corporate shareholders since these movies are huge cash cows when media in general is suffering in terms of success. Almost seems as if the popularity of the Marvel shows and movies are becoming a detriment. Dialing back on the Disney+ shows would probably do these Marvel movies some justice.

"Sean sparks like John Starks, nah, Sean ball like John Wall" - Rest In Power Forever Sean Price.

  

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Frank Longo
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41. "This is 100% spot on."
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

>it sounds
>as if directors have to crank these movies out since
>storylines for future shows and movies are dependent on films
>coming out as quickly as possible. That's a shame the movies
>have to suffer as result of them being done in such a
>corporate time crunch basis, but I suppose I get it from
>having to deliver to corporate shareholders since these movies
>are huge cash cows when media in general is suffering in terms
>of success.

I'm not naive enough to suggest that movies with this level of budget aren't products first and foremost to the suits and shareholders... but in the first couple of phases, when the goal was 2ish a year, the quality of the product was better because they had more time to develop the best product possible. And, at a certain point, they began prioritizing timeliness of delivery of product-- and the constant availability of new product-- to the quality of the product itself.

Like, before 2017, they were doing 1-2 movies a year. Then, 2017-2019, three movies a year. Obviously COVID changed the schedule a bit... but 2021 had four movies and five TV shows. 2022, three movies and three TV shows. 2023 currently has three movies and six TV shows (!!) planned, and 2024 has four movies in addition to whatever shows end up on the slate.

Like, they were doing six hours of content a year-- and suddenly ramped up to several times that. At least with the previous shows on ABC and Netflix, Marvel wasn't the company handling all the logistics of every element-- ABC and Netflix ran the show, Marvel just had to sign off on everything. Now that it's all Marvel, all the time? That's just such a massive escalation and watering down of resources.

>Almost seems as if the popularity of the Marvel
>shows and movies are becoming a detriment. Dialing back on the
>Disney+ shows would probably do these Marvel movies some
>justice.

Not sure that I'd go that far, but Disney's need for there to basically never be a period of more than a month without some form of new Marvel content, either a movie or a new TV episode, is almost certainly making the quality take a hit.

For beer lovers: http://thebeertravelguide.com
For movie lovers: http://russellhainline.com

  

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bwood
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43. "I gotta agree."
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

It's way too much and the quality is in decline.

Reading the Variety feature on WAKANDA FOREVER made it clear that Ryan needed another year or to fully get this to where it needed to be.

The movie itself has been indicative of Phase Four. Lots of good ideas that are doing too much and executed poorly. Like now the first Phase of "The Multiverse Saga" is done, and the first season of LOKI basically did all the heavy lifting there. Only other thing that's come close has been a Spider-Man movie that they have to share with Sony. And even then bot really.

------------------------------------------
America from 9:00 on: https://youtu.be/GUwLCQU10KQ

  

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Lach
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44. "I pray that Ant Man 3 and GOG 3 at least live up to the hype"
In response to Reply # 43


  

          

Been looking forward to Kang and Adam Warlock coming on the scene for years and years.

  

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Frank Longo
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49. "Some of the shots in that Ant-Man 3 trailer..."
In response to Reply # 44


  

          

... look, I know it's a trailer, so maybe the effects just aren't finalized... but it looked like a *lot* of "hey actors, stand on this green screen set and look around, we'll figure out what the actual background looks like and what the lighting should be in post-production." lol like, some of that lighting looked flat as absolute hell.

I do generally have faith in Gunn, though, who, with The Suicide Squad, really showed me that he can find a way to persevere in even a difficult corporate environment and create something that looks/sounds/feels engaging in the superhero genre.

For beer lovers: http://thebeertravelguide.com
For movie lovers: http://russellhainline.com

  

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bwood
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53. "Yeah, the ANT-MAN trailer is ROUGH"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

Doesn't help that it looks just like DOCTOR STRANGE 2 and THOR 4.

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Lach
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54. "yeah I'm hoping Majors plays the role so well"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

that we may overlook some of the graphic shortcomings. I'm hoping.

  

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handle
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46. "Whenever I see "bad cgi" I ask "Does this look it could be in a comic bo..."
In response to Reply # 43


          

If I see bad CGI, like it doesn't look HYPER REAL then I really do ask myself "Would a drawing of that in a comic book look okay?"

I think of these films as taking actions from a comic book and making them in film form - kind of filling in the spots between the panels and if I notice bad CGI I think back to some panels from comic books and if the composition is similar I just let it go.

In this film I'd say yes it worked.

Now the first Black Panther fight on the underground train looked really bad as a hyper-real film - but it fit SQUARELY into a comic book format.

I think if we got 1 Marvel film every 2 years I'd be pickier about it - but the story is why I've watched so many of these - not for the effects.

------------


Gone: My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

  

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CyrenYoung
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45. "The Marvel Universe expansion..."
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

..We knew this would happen.

As such, things are a bit congested (just like the comics).

>Like, before 2017, they were doing 1-2 movies a year. Then,
>2017-2019, three movies a year. Obviously COVID changed the
>schedule a bit... but 2021 had four movies and five TV shows.
>2022, three movies and three TV shows. 2023 currently has
>three movies and six TV shows (!!) planned, and 2024 has four
>movies in addition to whatever shows end up on the slate.
>
>Like, they were doing six hours of content a year-- and
>suddenly ramped up to several times that. At least with the
>previous shows on ABC and Netflix, Marvel wasn't the company
>handling all the logistics of every element-- ABC and Netflix
>ran the show, Marvel just had to sign off on everything. Now
>that it's all Marvel, all the time? That's just such a massive
>escalation and watering down of resources.

This isn't a fair assessment/comparison without including the 6 Marvel/Netflix series that started in 2015. Add to that Marvel's impact on the entertainment industry overall (esp format/presentation), fatigue is completely understandable.

The congestion is an acceptable byproduct of the expansion necessary to tell the entire story of the MCU. Fortunately, you're not required to keep up with every detail. Comic books are published weekly. Like the books that inspired these live action franchises, you get to choose your own adventure at your own pace without feeling overwhelmed or left out.





*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...

  

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Numba_33
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50. "Out of curiosity"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

>..We knew this would happen.

who is we? I'm not asking to be snarky, but I'm curious who you're referring to here.

I'm partly asking because I'm curious if the more voracious comic book fans care about the Marvel movies and shows seemingly getting worse and worse partially because of their increased popularity.

"Sean sparks like John Starks, nah, Sean ball like John Wall" - Rest In Power Forever Sean Price.

  

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CyrenYoung
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55. "You, me, everybody © Yasiin Bey"
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

..We all (long-standing or casual fans) knew the machine would eventually cater to the masses.

While some of the criticism is valid, some of this stems from unrealistic expectations.

Each series won't be for everyone. I just hope that more people consider the challenges facing the people working to bring these projects to fruition.


*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...

  

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Walleye
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47. "So we elevated popular art and capital did its thing"
In response to Reply # 41


          

>Not sure that I'd go that far, but Disney's need for there to
>basically never be a period of more than a month without some
>form of new Marvel content, either a movie or a new TV
>episode, is almost certainly making the quality take a hit.

That sounds terrible. Not just for these mostly boring movies but for art in general. Right? Is there something I'm missing in the math where this dynamic doesn't pose the threat of existential disaster for the very concept of art?

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Frank Longo
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48. "Well, here's what the optimist would say."
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

The optimist would say, "These movies create passionate fanbases around stars/creators of Marvel content. So then, these Marvel actors/directors will have more clout when they want to try to get more artistic endeavors funded, similar to what Robert Pattinson and Kristen Stewart have by and large done since the Twilight movies. If Marvel movies make big money, the rising tide lifts all boats."

The pessimist would say: "Marvel doesn't make stars. They're increasingly forcing out the filmmakers with genuine vision of scale, increasingly snatching up Sundance and TV directors who (a) very reasonably want the paycheck and (b) are completely disposable so the suits can make them into their personal Pinocchios. Which is bad for both these Sundance style movies and for the quality of the Marvel product. Marvel movies making a ton of money only teaches studios that Marvel-style movies make money, so while most studios have already gotten nearly entirely away from movies that aren't based on pre-existing IP, they're also all doubling down on "created universes," hack directors helming generically quippy scripts and bad CGI that was pre-vized before the directors even signed the contract, actors forced in lengthy deals to appear in these things with a gun to head, etc. Instead of making good movies, they're just trying to make the next Marvel, which isn't going to go well and will force everything other than 5 mil budget horror movies and the odd Oscar bait flick out of cinemas and into streaming services. And even streaming services like Netflix, which *do* fund and platform a lot of interesting art, will continue to view this art as "content," not advertise it well enough, and let it slip through the fingers of pop culture before it even had a chance to make a dent."

I... am obviously more in the pessimist boat here, lol. I think, strangely enough, TV is avoiding a lot of these problems for the time being, as more singular, interesting things have been more able to find homes there, because people in TV don't want to be Marvel (yet), they want to be HBO. Netflix's mostly terrible shows notwithstanding, there is a lot of pretty awesome prestige TV out there. (I don't really watch any of it, because I'm a movie guy through and through, but it's there.)

But in terms of movies... I wrote an article mid-last decade (for a site that no longer exists, sadly) where I cited a statistic that something like 60% of kids under 25 will see fewer than 2 movies in theaters a year. Twitch, YouTube, TikTok-- all are vastly more popular. (I think the optimist could also make a compelling argument about how the democratization of filmmaking resources will ultimately yield more opportunities for low-budget art than ever before.) So old people die and are replaced with people who don't give a shit about the theatrical experience. So movie theaters march their slow death into being a novelty, streaming becomes king, and pop culture increasingly just doesn't include movies at all. As a lover of film, all of this is, of course, insanely depressing.

Then again, as someone currently working in the TV movie space, it's not like I'm exactly on the front lines fighting the good fight, lol. But yeah, long, long, probably incoherent ramble short, I think Marvel caring more about the quantity than the quality of the content is absolutely a bad thing for the future of cinema. And I'm hopeful that, maybe if the Disney+ show ratings tank or whatever, they can pare down, slow down, and try to focus on making the 400 million dollar budget into something more than a 600 million dollar return.

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Walleye
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58. "That's pretty coherent to me"
In response to Reply # 48


          

That sounds about right to me. And except for the small issue that I don't really have a full perspective on the industry and therefore can't really trust my judgement, it seems like both of the below statements (first from your optimists and second from your pessimists) invite actual evidence:

>So then,
>these Marvel actors/directors will have more clout when they
>want to try to get more artistic endeavors funded, similar to
>what Robert Pattinson and Kristen Stewart have by and large
>done since the Twilight movies. If Marvel movies make big
>money, the rising tide lifts all boats."

>Instead of making
>good movies, they're just trying to make the next Marvel,
>which isn't going to go well and will force everything other
>than 5 mil budget horror movies and the odd Oscar bait flick
>out of cinemas and into streaming services.

So which one is happening? It really feels like the latter, but I'm willing to be convinced. And I'll also add that the former view isn't all upside either, as "clout" indicates a proven commodity. So the movies that will be permitted to step outside the new Marvel paradigm are given that privilege. They haven't taken it by the force of their talent. So we'll never know the thing we're missing - aggressive, reckless movies that perceive risk differently than "losing money."

Part of my frustration here is that getting old means losing valued methods of finding new things to watch or hear faster than I'm gaining them. I watched "The Living End" a couple months ago on Criterion because I was bored and it wasn't very good but it was certainly aggressive and reckless. I guess it's not like movies like that aren't being made, but they're so severely siloed that a 43 year old dullard like me is never going to find them. But in 1992, Greg Araki was just like "here's a movie."

>I don't really
>watch any of it, because I'm a movie guy through and through,
>but it's there.)

There's a smarter, younger version of me that would want to talk and talk and talk about this until we arrive at some way of understanding that watching movies is a fundamentally different activity (not better or worse, except by individual taste) than watching a TV show. That smarter and younger version would maybe lean on Eliade's sacred/profane distinction, where movies are epiphanic disruptions to our life. Our consumption of them, particularly in theaters, is liturgical. We file into seats, wait for the lights to go down, observe carefully ritualized actions to gesture at respect for others' experience. TV is quotidian in the sense that is ongoing, built according to schedules that gesture at preserving our convenience.

Or not. Maybe that's silly. But since in the next paragraph you head straight to in-theater watching, maybe it's not totally off-base:

>So old people die and are replaced with people who don't give a
>shit about the theatrical experience. So movie theaters march
>their slow death into being a novelty, streaming becomes king,
>and pop culture increasingly just doesn't include movies at
>all. As a lover of film, all of this is, of course, insanely
>depressing.

Huh. Nothing ever dies at the rate or in the fashion that we expect. So maybe there's an altweibersommer for theaters out there. Like a couple decades where the experience of going to a theater is more comparable to seeing live music than to the experience of going to a Sunday matinee with a sticky floor in 1990 to see "Almost an Angel" because of how much you loved Paul Hogan in the Crocodile Dundee films.

>Then again, as someone currently working in the TV movie
>space, it's not like I'm exactly on the front lines fighting
>the good fight, lol.

Nice. If you'd have gotten a job on The Good Fight, then you could say that's what you were doing and nobody would know the difference. Luckily, as I assume you know, nobody who needs a job to live in the world is individually responsible for any broad systematic trends.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Nopayne
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56. "Any movie with Apple slander is fine by me."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"She's using an iPhone? How primitive". 😍

---
Love,
Nopayne

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
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Mon Nov-28-22 11:37 AM

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59. "lol"
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

  

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