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Subject: "OK, so why didn't Berry let the J5 write their own songs again? " Previous topic | Next topic
BootyGreen
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Fri Mar-11-11 03:15 PM

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"OK, so why didn't Berry let the J5 write their own songs again? "


  

          

M-D-L-T Willis
"What's Your Game" (1974)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkDET6bZv4k

"Runnin' and Pushing" (1974)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDCjHOoL1Sg&feature=related

View of 45 label credits
http://eil.com/shop/moreinfo.asp?catalogid=395158

Pic of Joe with the lovely ladies (makes me wonder how many of them he tried to make a pass at)
http://blast-from-thepast.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/mdlt.jpg

Another pic of the girls
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4070/4265773232_0015a7ee18_o.jpg



This was a group managed by Papa Joe and signed to his short lived Ivory Tower label. Both sides of their only 45 were written and produced by the J5 (I've read on some forums that they are playing on the recordings as well). The songs are well arranged IMO and show that the Jackson kids were deserving of a chance to contribute to their own recordings as producers and songwriters.

Off topic, there's a story in Bob Jones book The Man Behind The Mask about an incident where one of the girls was set up by Joe and the boys to seduce Michael (link: http://books.google.com/books?id=8j4ILUllObsC&pg=PA16&lpg=PA16&ots=zL8AjRpET_&dq=M-D-L-T+Willis#v=onepage&q=M-D-L-T%20Willis&f=false). Not sure if I believe it, but found it interesting nevertheless.

What are your thoughts on these songs?


_______________________________________
"I whipped him with a switch and a belt. I never beat him. You beat someone with a stick." - Joe Jackson

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
damn... them chicks was THICK
Mar 11th 2011
1
RE: damn... them chicks was THICK
Mar 11th 2011
6
when you are so caught up in your wack dancing
Mar 13th 2011
12
      lol...i was so busy trying to decipher the dancing i missed that.
Mar 13th 2011
13
           LOL
Mar 13th 2011
14
           i rewatched it...the dancing did need work but the girl on the far left`
Mar 13th 2011
24
they needed to fire their choreographer, for sure.
Mar 13th 2011
9
They look like they're singing into hairbrushes in their bedroom
Mar 13th 2011
10
*ding*
Mar 13th 2011
11
nah, I'm sure Joe came up with a lotta OTHER shit, though...
Mar 13th 2011
18
RE: nah, I'm sure Joe came up with a lotta OTHER shit, though...
Mar 14th 2011
57
it's the chick on the far left...the tall one
Mar 13th 2011
22
damn... them chicks was THICK <-------- La Verdad
Mar 13th 2011
15
What's your game? sounds great - the other one? nah...
Mar 11th 2011
2
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Mar 11th 2011
3
Anyway, to answer the original question:
Mar 11th 2011
4
*hides this video from beyonce so she doesnt get any big ideas*
Mar 11th 2011
5
*like*
Mar 11th 2011
7
the group name is TERRIBLE.
Mar 13th 2011
8
it looks almost like "Mc DLT"
Mar 13th 2011
16
      nailed it. (c) the Nard Dog n/m.
Mar 13th 2011
17
      mcdonalds still needs their ass beat for that brilliant idear
Mar 13th 2011
25
           you crazy...that's the best sammich they ever made.
Mar 13th 2011
30
I Wish Good Ol' Berry Was ONLY Guilty Of Suppressing...
Mar 13th 2011
19
Young Money really groomed Nicki Minaj.
Mar 13th 2011
20
& drake. baby is brilliant on the business side
Mar 13th 2011
26
I was gonna say Drake too but
Mar 13th 2011
27
Who's Talking About Grooming?
Mar 13th 2011
41
      RE: Who's Talking About Grooming?
Mar 14th 2011
58
I'll get roasted for this....
Mar 13th 2011
33
      I got your back on that.
Mar 13th 2011
34
           LOL You're Gonna Have To Stop Associating Me With..
Mar 13th 2011
42
                LOL Who The Hell Is "Smokey Anderson"?
Mar 13th 2011
45
uh, champ...i need u to do another mixtape, STAT. nm
Mar 13th 2011
21
RE: uh, champ...i need u to do another mixtape, STAT. nm
Mar 14th 2011
59
on topic...love it nm
Mar 13th 2011
23
The lead singer looks like La Toya
Mar 13th 2011
28
seemed like a good idea at the time..everybody wins...
Mar 13th 2011
29
and to be fair, the stage show sucks, but the music ain't so bad.
Mar 13th 2011
31
yo TONE
Mar 13th 2011
32
RE: OK, so why didn't Berry let the J5 write their own songs again?
Mar 13th 2011
35
J5 were not writing their own songs, though.
Mar 13th 2011
36
      That's what I'm saying.
Mar 13th 2011
37
           you're misunderstanding me.
Mar 13th 2011
38
                RE: you're misunderstanding me.
Mar 13th 2011
39
                     I love the authority with which you state all this.
Mar 13th 2011
40
                          RE: I love the authority with which you state all this.
Mar 13th 2011
43
                               *sigh*
Mar 13th 2011
44
                                    RE: *sigh*
Mar 14th 2011
46
                                         I'm neither upset nor uncomfortable... nor have I been.
Mar 14th 2011
47
                                              skinny
Mar 14th 2011
48
                                                   white.
Mar 14th 2011
49
                                                        worried
Mar 14th 2011
50
                                                             willfully ignorant.
Mar 14th 2011
51
                                                                  How so?
Mar 14th 2011
52
                                                                       oh, miss me with that bullshit, will you?
Mar 14th 2011
53
                                                                            I'll respond to this cause I respect you.
Mar 14th 2011
54
                                                                                 RE: I'll respond to this cause I respect you.
Mar 14th 2011
55
                                                                                      lol @ this exchange...hecks yeah those girls were thick!
Mar 14th 2011
61
                                                                                           MY MAN (c)
Mar 14th 2011
65
because berry gordy was a control freak who had a forumla
Mar 14th 2011
56
RE: because berry gordy was a control freak who had a forumla
Mar 14th 2011
60
      i think 'cause stevie understood and added to the motown sound
Mar 14th 2011
62
      RE: because berry gordy was a control freak who had a forumla
Mar 14th 2011
63
           that i can see.
Mar 14th 2011
66
           LMAO
Mar 14th 2011
67
           RE: because berry gordy was a control freak who had a forumla
Mar 14th 2011
68
Because they didn't know how to write songs until Gamble and Huff
Mar 14th 2011
64

AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Fri Mar-11-11 03:22 PM

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1. "damn... them chicks was THICK"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

the songs DO have a J5-written sound to them

they were really terrible performers and worse lipsynchers, though lol

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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fire
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Fri Mar-11-11 04:31 PM

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6. "RE: damn... them chicks was THICK"
In response to Reply # 1


          


>
>they were really terrible performers and worse lipsynchers,
>though lol

they were not bad at all ,imo

________________________________________
who gonna check me boo?!

www.twitter.com/firefire100
http://instagram.com/firefire100
www.philadelphiaeagles.com

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Sun Mar-13-11 11:03 AM

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12. "when you are so caught up in your wack dancing"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

that you forget to hold the microphone to your mouth in order to maintain the illusion of singing...



...it's a problem.

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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MISTA MONOTONE
Member since Jan 30th 2004
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Sun Mar-13-11 11:47 AM

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13. "lol...i was so busy trying to decipher the dancing i missed that."
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

seriously...lol. they needed Cholly Atkins, bad.

Joe was on some "i don't need no gotdamb Motown, fucka Motown anda Barry Gordy, nigga!" bullshit.

------------------------------------------
latest mixtape:
https://www.mixcloud.com/mistamonotone/music-to-smack-motherfckers-to/

mistamonotone - taboo
http://mistamonotone.bandcamp.com/album/taboo

@mistamonotone
IG: mistamonotone

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Sun Mar-13-11 11:51 AM

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14. "LOL"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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fire
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Sun Mar-13-11 04:18 PM

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24. "i rewatched it...the dancing did need work but the girl on the far left`"
In response to Reply # 13


          

cant dance at all & made it look a lot worse
she is flailing widly

________________________________________
who gonna check me boo?!

www.twitter.com/firefire100
http://instagram.com/firefire100
www.philadelphiaeagles.com

  

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MISTA MONOTONE
Member since Jan 30th 2004
58562 posts
Sun Mar-13-11 10:47 AM

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9. "they needed to fire their choreographer, for sure."
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

>they were really terrible performers and worse lipsynchers,
>though lol

too much wild dancing. they needed to class it up a bit. or be just so GREAT at dancing it wouldn't matter how wild they looked. they look like they came up with that routine themselves.

..or Joe did.

------------------------------------------
latest mixtape:
https://www.mixcloud.com/mistamonotone/music-to-smack-motherfckers-to/

mistamonotone - taboo
http://mistamonotone.bandcamp.com/album/taboo

@mistamonotone
IG: mistamonotone

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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10. "They look like they're singing into hairbrushes in their bedroom"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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MISTA MONOTONE
Member since Jan 30th 2004
58562 posts
Sun Mar-13-11 10:59 AM

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11. "*ding*"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

------------------------------------------
latest mixtape:
https://www.mixcloud.com/mistamonotone/music-to-smack-motherfckers-to/

mistamonotone - taboo
http://mistamonotone.bandcamp.com/album/taboo

@mistamonotone
IG: mistamonotone

  

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disco dj
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Sun Mar-13-11 12:23 PM

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18. "nah, I'm sure Joe came up with a lotta OTHER shit, though..."
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

>> they look like they came up with that routine
>themselves.
>
>..or Joe did.
>


"here, girls. We don't need no extra dressing room...ya'll can change in my office. I'll be over here working on these papers..."


______________



http://www.windimoto.com


http://ten2one.wordpress.com/ <-FEB

http://wallpapershi.net/wallpapers/2012/01/boba-fett-star-wars-star-wars-boba-fett-movie-anime-1080x1920.jpg

  

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BootyGreen
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Mon Mar-14-11 10:34 AM

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57. "RE: nah, I'm sure Joe came up with a lotta OTHER shit, though..."
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

LOL. I mean, this WAS the same period where he knocked up a J5 Fan (who, I believe, was around Jackie's age).

_______________________________________
"I whipped him with a switch and a belt. I never beat him. You beat someone with a stick." - Joe Jackson

  

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__Spread__
Member since Sep 08th 2009
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Sun Mar-13-11 03:56 PM

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22. "it's the chick on the far left...the tall one"
In response to Reply # 9


          

shit is fucking up all the dance moves (not that they were exactly groundbreaking) but she was all out of sync...maybe the J5 boys coulda helped them on their dancing too...

~-~-~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



http://slickshoes.bandcamp.com
http://thephilosophy.bandcamp.com/
http://soundcloud.com/spread-1
http://soundcloud.com/spreaducation
http://twitter.com/Spready4DaWorld

  

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disco dj
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Sun Mar-13-11 12:11 PM

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15. "damn... them chicks was THICK <-------- La Verdad"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

the 2nd and 3rd one?



Coulda got ALL of it.

______________



http://www.windimoto.com


http://ten2one.wordpress.com/ <-FEB

http://wallpapershi.net/wallpapers/2012/01/boba-fett-star-wars-star-wars-boba-fett-movie-anime-1080x1920.jpg

  

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c71
Member since Jan 15th 2008
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Fri Mar-11-11 03:47 PM

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2. "What's your game? sounds great - the other one? nah..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

thanks for posting.

  

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Pete Burns
Member since Oct 18th 2005
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Fri Mar-11-11 03:57 PM

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3. "$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$"
In response to Reply # 0


          

What the blood claaat ???

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Fri Mar-11-11 04:13 PM

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4. "Anyway, to answer the original question:"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

While I think both of these songs are quite good neither of them would have made it past Motown Quality Control.

They're just not Hit Factory-level hits. They could probably be singles over at Invictus or Hot Wax (I could hear Freda Payne or The Honey Comb doing "Runnin' and Pushin'") but they ain't bonafide Motown hits like Stevie was writing when he started pushing for control of his material.

They showed promise, though.

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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fire
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Fri Mar-11-11 04:19 PM

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5. "*hides this video from beyonce so she doesnt get any big ideas*"
In response to Reply # 0


          

this is PERFECT!!!!

________________________________________
who gonna check me boo?!

www.twitter.com/firefire100
http://instagram.com/firefire100
www.philadelphiaeagles.com

  

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BrainChild
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Fri Mar-11-11 05:05 PM

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7. "*like*"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

--me--
www.djbrainchild.com
www.gordongartrellradio.com
www.twitter.com/djbrainchild

  

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MISTA MONOTONE
Member since Jan 30th 2004
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Sun Mar-13-11 10:44 AM

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8. "the group name is TERRIBLE."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

not catchy at all.

the first song, however, is jamming. i like that. that coulda been a minor hit. i'm amazed that i've never even heard of this group before.

somebody dropped the ball heavy on this one.

*blames Joe*

------------------------------------------
latest mixtape:
https://www.mixcloud.com/mistamonotone/music-to-smack-motherfckers-to/

mistamonotone - taboo
http://mistamonotone.bandcamp.com/album/taboo

@mistamonotone
IG: mistamonotone

  

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disco dj
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16. "it looks almost like "Mc DLT" "
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

the hot side stays hot, the cool side stays cool.



Sidepost: I really wish they'd bring that shit back. Fuck a Daily Double...



______________



http://www.windimoto.com


http://ten2one.wordpress.com/ <-FEB

http://wallpapershi.net/wallpapers/2012/01/boba-fett-star-wars-star-wars-boba-fett-movie-anime-1080x1920.jpg

  

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MISTA MONOTONE
Member since Jan 30th 2004
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Sun Mar-13-11 12:15 PM

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17. "nailed it. (c) the Nard Dog n/m."
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

------------------------------------------
latest mixtape:
https://www.mixcloud.com/mistamonotone/music-to-smack-motherfckers-to/

mistamonotone - taboo
http://mistamonotone.bandcamp.com/album/taboo

@mistamonotone
IG: mistamonotone

  

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fire
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25. "mcdonalds still needs their ass beat for that brilliant idear"
In response to Reply # 16


          

>the hot side stays hot, the cool side stays cool.
>
>
>
>Sidepost: I really wish they'd bring that shit back. Fuck a
>Daily Double...
>
>
>
>

________________________________________
who gonna check me boo?!

www.twitter.com/firefire100
http://instagram.com/firefire100
www.philadelphiaeagles.com

  

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disco dj
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30. "you crazy...that's the best sammich they ever made."
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

.

______________



http://www.windimoto.com


http://ten2one.wordpress.com/ <-FEB

http://wallpapershi.net/wallpapers/2012/01/boba-fett-star-wars-star-wars-boba-fett-movie-anime-1080x1920.jpg

  

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Harlepolis
Member since Jan 09th 2011
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Sun Mar-13-11 02:56 PM

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19. "I Wish Good Ol' Berry Was ONLY Guilty Of Suppressing..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

J5's song writing.

I still can't believe that he thought "Whats Going On" sucked and actually thought of shelving it in order not to let folks think Marvin was a militant negro.

In Motown's defense though, there was artist development. Sure alot of great talents got fucked till the spine but there were the ones who were given a chance to grow musically.

I cannot think of ONE major label nowadays with a recent artist development history.
,,,,hell, not with the type of contracts they're handing out.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Sun Mar-13-11 03:33 PM

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20. "Young Money really groomed Nicki Minaj."
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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fire
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Sun Mar-13-11 04:20 PM

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26. "& drake. baby is brilliant on the business side"
In response to Reply # 20


          

________________________________________
who gonna check me boo?!

www.twitter.com/firefire100
http://instagram.com/firefire100
www.philadelphiaeagles.com

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Sun Mar-13-11 04:24 PM

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27. "I was gonna say Drake too but"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

wasn't Drake kinda already "packaged" BEFORE he signed with YM?

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Harlepolis
Member since Jan 09th 2011
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Sun Mar-13-11 09:18 PM

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41. "Who's Talking About Grooming?"
In response to Reply # 20
Sun Mar-13-11 09:24 PM by Harlepolis

  

          

I'm talking musically, ya'll.

If we're gonna get into image and turning human being into mere "brands", then hell yes lol major record labels are falling over each other nowadays to package the artist to make him/her visually accessible.

Musically, on the other hand? No emphasis whatsoever. Artists are signed and expected to be successful from debut. Stevie did start with a bang("Fingertips") but he had to deliver 6 or 5 albums before he was warned that he might get thrown out.

Keep a close look @ Drake & Nicki, they just released successful debut albums, but let their sophomore albums bring some moderate results, and you'll hear a different tune from whoever hired them. The point is, they let him find his voice/sound. I'm sure if Young Money signed a young Stevie Wonder, he would be out on the streets long before you'll hear a "Talking Book" out of him.

Mind you, I'm not harboring any illusions, the industry has always been about sales quota, but nowadays they're blatant when it comes to their indifference to the artist's talent,,,,,or lack of in many cases.

  

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BootyGreen
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Mon Mar-14-11 10:41 AM

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58. "RE: Who's Talking About Grooming?"
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

I totally agree. I tell people all the time if The Supremes, Marvin Gaye, The Temptations, LaBelle, Stevie Wonder or Prince came out today, they would have never been given a chance to develop and come into their own as artists. First album flops, well, there's a 50-50 chance you'll get another go. Second album flops? Bye Bye music career.
_______________________________________
"I whipped him with a switch and a belt. I never beat him. You beat someone with a stick." - Joe Jackson

  

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denny
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33. "I'll get roasted for this...."
In response to Reply # 19


          

and trust me. I love 'what's going on' but I see what Gordy saw.

Those songs are not NEARLY as well-written as most of the motown catalogue. They're meandering. But that was what Marvin wanted....to focus more on the groove and less focus on the composition. Let the musicians stretch out a bit and take the catchy hooks out. Less pop and more blues.

Of course Gordy gonna be nervous about that.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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34. "I got your back on that."
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Harlepolis
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42. "LOL You're Gonna Have To Stop Associating Me With.."
In response to Reply # 34
Sun Mar-13-11 10:15 PM by Harlepolis

  

          

With those "orgers", and start believing that I'm indeed harmless. Anyway you two, I respectfully but strongly disagree, I don't see it.

Marvin's lyrical approach is subtle in comparison to the more constructed Norman Whitfields, Holland-Dozier-Hollands, Barret Strongs and Smokey Andersons, but he was as and sometimes - dare I say it - more profound than them, otherwise you can't explain to me how he touched a nerve with the public, he spoke about tangible things, whereas those guys fed the escapism before "Whats Going On" and suddenly changed their method after its success and the Funkadelic/Sly Stone invasion. I think Berry's nervousness stemmed from his short sightedness and fear that good ol' white folks would give Motown the raised eyebrow, I don't think Marvin's song writing was the issue, the album's militant overtones were the issue.

Being a bully, he only reacted to confrontations from both Marvin & Stevie. He didn't give a crap about "Music From My Mind" and when he heard the results of "Talking Book" he wasn't impressed either. It took some manipulation from Stevie's end to give Berry the illusion that other labels are giving offers, and the inevitable reaction he got from the radio to finally get him on board.

Ironically, it was Stevie ALONE who carried the label on his back when everybody jumped ship shortly before Berry resigned from the CEO position.

  

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Harlepolis
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45. "LOL Who The Hell Is "Smokey Anderson"?"
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

I meant Robinson,,,UGH.

  

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Binlahab
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21. "uh, champ...i need u to do another mixtape, STAT. nm"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


be not afraid, your destiny awaits


http://tinyurl.com/23yexkq

laters

  

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BootyGreen
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59. "RE: uh, champ...i need u to do another mixtape, STAT. nm"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

Got you brother. Will have a new one posted no later than Friday. Thanks for the reminder, lol.
_______________________________________
"I whipped him with a switch and a belt. I never beat him. You beat someone with a stick." - Joe Jackson

  

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Binlahab
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23. "on topic...love it nm"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


be not afraid, your destiny awaits


http://tinyurl.com/23yexkq

laters

  

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MME
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28. "The lead singer looks like La Toya"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

nm

____________________________

FUCK DONALD TRUMP

  

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scorpion
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29. "seemed like a good idea at the time..everybody wins..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Joe: gets to make some extra loot, gets full control of his thang, and he gets to give Motown the finger for not letting the boys write and produce their own material

J5: gets to release their own creative output and prove themselves and songwriters, producers, and musicians

the girls: get to become stars with the First Family of Music on their team

the game prolly got twisted when:

a)Joe and some of the boys tried to put their bid in with the girls

b)Joe's inexperience as a label head and manager created more problems than successes...Joe's habit of jaggin off money prolly didnt help either

c)Motown caught wind of this shit--*references scene in Dreamgirls when the DJ throws Effie's record in the trash after "conferring" with Rainbow Records*

d)the song didnt hit--which prolly left errybody dillusioned and pissy...especially the girls who prolly hadnt seen dime the first and prolly ended up servicing Joe and his boys anyway cuz they thought it would be worth it in the end...

  

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disco dj
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31. "and to be fair, the stage show sucks, but the music ain't so bad."
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

I've heard worse shit...


______________



http://www.windimoto.com


http://ten2one.wordpress.com/ <-FEB

http://wallpapershi.net/wallpapers/2012/01/boba-fett-star-wars-star-wars-boba-fett-movie-anime-1080x1920.jpg

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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32. "yo TONE"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4070/4265773232_0015a7ee18_o.jpg

Does 3rd from the left look just a l'il LisaRaye?

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denny
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35. "RE: OK, so why didn't Berry let the J5 write their own songs again? "
In response to Reply # 0


          

Only speculating here....but I'm sure there was an established songwriter/arranger working on this too. 'Running and Pushing's got some changes/bridges in there that sound different than alot of J5 stuff. Like the lift at 0:45. Lots of meter switches and cheats too.

I'm guessing that the Jackson 5 credits are cause they had those songs in their repetoire at some point...not cause they were the principle songwriters.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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36. "J5 were not writing their own songs, though."
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

>Only speculating here....but I'm sure there was an
>established songwriter/arranger working on this too. 'Running
>and Pushing's got some changes/bridges in there that sound
>different than alot of J5 stuff.

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denny
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37. "That's what I'm saying."
In response to Reply # 36
Sun Mar-13-11 08:08 PM by denny

          

The songs were probably written for J5...they did an arrangement (with help) and then dropped them.

These thin-framed chickies picked up those songs. (whoever calls these girls 'thick' is living in a different universe)

I'm sure J5 were part of the arranging cause they could comp chords and play licks but they weren't songwriters.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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38. "you're misunderstanding me."
In response to Reply # 37
Sun Mar-13-11 08:24 PM by AFKAP_of_Darkness

  

          

You're saying these songs probably were not written by J5 because they have musical features not present on J5 records.

But J5 didn't WRITE the J5 records... so comparing those songs to songs they supposedly DID write is kinda moot, no?

I think it's odd that you feel pretty confident proclaiming that the Jackson 5 were not songwriters. How do you know that? They had been agitating for Motown to let them write their own stuff, so obviously they must have had some material they were working on.

And trust me, white boy... you don't know nothing about no "thick." I live in that universe; I don't know which one you live in.

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denny
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39. "RE: you're misunderstanding me."
In response to Reply # 38


          

>You're saying these songs probably were not written by J5
>because they have musical features not present on J5 records.
>
>But J5 didn't WRITE the J5 records... so comparing those songs
>to songs they supposedly DID write is kinda moot, no?

Not really, except if your suggesting these are the only songs that showcase the songwriting of the J5. Is that what we're saying here? Finally, we can hear stuff that the J5 wrote? If so, you guys are taking the record credits too seriously. That was promotions.

And you must be the guy who said those girls were thick. Really? Those girls are skinny.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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40. "I love the authority with which you state all this."
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

>Not really, except if your suggesting these are the only songs
>that showcase the songwriting of the J5. Is that what we're
>saying here? Finally, we can hear stuff that the J5 wrote?
>If so, you guys are taking the record credits too seriously.
>That was promotions.

Meanwhile, people who are much more versed on these things than you and I maintain that the Jacksons DID write it.

Do you have any evidence to buttress your proclamation here or are you just assuming shit and presenting it as fact like you did in that Fela/James Brown thread?

>And you must be the guy who said those girls were thick.
>Really? Those girls are skinny.

Dude. No disrespect, but you're white, right?

Just leave it alone... You don't know what the word "thick" means in African-American argot and you're probably culturally ill-equipped to ever understand it and/or the concept the word describes.

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denny
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43. "RE: I love the authority with which you state all this."
In response to Reply # 40


          


>Meanwhile, people who are much more versed on these things
>than you and I maintain that the Jacksons DID write it.

Haven't heard anyone insisting that yet.

>Do you have any evidence to buttress your proclamation here or
>are you just assuming shit and presenting it as fact like you
>did in that Fela/James Brown thread?

I'm not a researcher but I have ears. We could break down 'Running and pushing' right now but it's gonna take awhile cause that song is pretty complicated. No proof that the J5 wrote that song except for a promotional record that listed them as songwriters.

And we have heard J5 written material from later years. Nothing like that.

>Dude. No disrespect, but you're white, right?

Why is this question disrespectful? I'm white. Just happening to be listening to the Strokes right now.

>Just leave it alone... You don't know what the word "thick"
>means in African-American argot and you're probably culturally
>ill-equipped to ever understand it and/or the concept the word
>describes.

Leave what alone? I don't know what the word 'argot' means but those girls are skinny.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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44. "*sigh*"
In response to Reply # 43
Sun Mar-13-11 10:08 PM by AFKAP_of_Darkness

  

          

>>Meanwhile, people who are much more versed on these things
>>than you and I maintain that the Jacksons DID write it.
>
>Haven't heard anyone insisting that yet.

Go look at some Jacksons-oriented books and websites then. I find that it's always helpful to acquaint oneself with the available research before pronouncing one's conclusion as definitive truth.

>I'm not a researcher but I have ears. We could break down
>'Running and pushing' right now but it's gonna take awhile
>cause that song is pretty complicated. No proof that the J5
>wrote that song except for a promotional record that listed
>them as songwriters.

And no proof that they DIDN'T write it except for the fact that YOU say so.

Neither one of them is necessarily solid ground upon which to build one's house but guess which one I might put slightly more faith in?

>And we have heard J5 written material from later years.
>Nothing like that.

Yeah... Did you factor in your calculation that the later material you heard came from a completely different era that demanded songs in a different style?

>>Dude. No disrespect, but you're white, right?
>
>Why is this question disrespectful? I'm white. Just
>happening to be listening to the Strokes right now.

Yep! That shole is white!

But I hate bringing people's race or any personal information at all into the equation when discussing music because it implies prejudice.

But in this case, we're not talking about music at all and I just REFUSE to discuss "thickness" with white boys. Because in my experience, you guys are just not wired to understand it.

When I was in college, I found that no matter how "down" a white guy was, no matter how much hip-hop he lived and breathed, no matter how fluent ebonics he spat, when it came down to discuss "thickness" he'd be like "Uh... so, uh, it's like... you guys like fat chicks, right?"

Of course, it's been like a decade since I was in college and society has progressed considerably in that time: there's much more interracial socializing than in the 1990s, we've seen the ascension of J-Lo and Kim Kardashian as beauty icons and the rise of authentic crossover porn like EBT and BTRA. So a lot more white guys have come to genuinely appreciate "thickness."

But I find that (for the most part) they still can't comprehend the subtleties of it. They can see it when it is exaggerated and emphasized but they have no understanding of it on the micro level. There ARE exceptions to that, of course. And I am proud to call them members of my community.

It's clear to me that you're not one of those, though. You just don't get it and you won't get it... so please let's not even discuss it.

You think those girls are not thick? Fine... have it your way; I won't even try to argue or explain it to you.

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denny
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Mon Mar-14-11 02:48 AM

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46. "RE: *sigh*"
In response to Reply # 44


          


>Go look at some Jacksons-oriented books and websites then. I
>find that it's always helpful to acquaint oneself with the
>available research before pronouncing one's conclusion as
>definitive truth.

I'm not looking at those things. Those people are crazy.


>But I hate bringing people's race or any personal information
>at all into the equation when discussing music because it
>implies prejudice.
>
>But in this case, we're not talking about music at all and I
>just REFUSE to discuss "thickness" with white boys. Because in
>my experience, you guys are just not wired to understand it.

Man....what are you talking about? All I said is these girls weren't thick. They aren't. I'm sure there are black males who'd agree with me. In fact...I'm sure that almost everyone, regardless of culture, would agree with me.

I love women. You can't tell me I 'can't see' something. I see everything and I love them.

>When I was in college, I found that no matter how "down" a
>white guy was, no matter how much hip-hop he lived and
>breathed, no matter how fluent ebonics he spat, when it came
>down to discuss "thickness" he'd be like "Uh... so, uh, it's
>like... you guys like fat chicks, right?"

i'm not the white guy you met in college. I don't live hip hop and don't speak ebonics. I talk more like a Canadian hoser.

>Of course, it's been like a decade since I was in college and
>society has progressed considerably in that time: there's much
>more interracial socializing than in the 1990s, we've seen the
>ascension of J-Lo and Kim Kardashian as beauty icons and the
>rise of authentic crossover porn like EBT and BTRA. So a lot
>more white guys have come to genuinely appreciate
>"thickness."

>But I find that (for the most part) they still can't
>comprehend the subtleties of it. They can see it when it is
>exaggerated and emphasized but they have no understanding of
>it on the micro level. There ARE exceptions to that, of
>course. And I am proud to call them members of my community.

Whatever gets you through the night. I'm not part of your community? Sniffles.

If you were at peace with all this you wouldn't have gotten upset in the first place. You'd just say to yourself 'Denny doesn't know about thickness because he's white'. But you need to point out the racial difference cause you're uncomfortable. Uncomfortable cause I think those chickies are skinny.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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47. "I'm neither upset nor uncomfortable... nor have I been."
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

>If you were at peace with all this you wouldn't have gotten
>upset in the first place. You'd just say to yourself 'Denny
>doesn't know about thickness because he's white'. But you
>need to point out the racial difference cause you're
>uncomfortable. Uncomfortable cause I think those chickies are
>skinny.

You know don't know what "thick" means and you shan't.

End.

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denny
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Mon Mar-14-11 03:46 AM

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48. "skinny"
In response to Reply # 47


          

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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49. "white."
In response to Reply # 48


  

          

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denny
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50. "worried"
In response to Reply # 49


          

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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51. "willfully ignorant."
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

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denny
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52. "How so?"
In response to Reply # 51
Mon Mar-14-11 04:22 AM by denny

          

While race is the topic....what's with that sig? I've known plenty nerds that are a generation or two from a distinctive african ancestry. What kind of crap is that?

You like your white people apologizing and condescending. Not me.

"you're right afkap...I'll never truly see ass for what it is".

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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53. "oh, miss me with that bullshit, will you?"
In response to Reply # 52
Mon Mar-14-11 04:48 AM by AFKAP_of_Darkness

  

          

>While race is the topic....what's with that sig? I've known
>plenty nerds that are a generation or two from a distinctive
>african ancestry. What kind of crap is that?
>
>You like your white people apologizing and condescending. Not
>me.

If you know anything about me and the views I've expressed on this board for the past 10 years, you'd know I am the diametrical opposite of that.

The sig in my quote is by a white man (duh) and he's simply (and cleverly) encapsulating the notion that America's unique notion of "hipness" is rooted in the cultural complexities resulting from the trans-atlantic slave trade. I think it is quite apt... however, if you want to start picking it apart in literal terms, be my guest. I just don't understand why any person of wit would do that.

Finally... The reason I cal you willfully ignorant is because you have a habit of coming into posts to make some definitive pronouncements like "Michael Jackson is gay and Human Nature is evidence of that" and I'm thinking "wow... this kid must have done that super-heavy research or have some inside source," just to find out that all you have is your opinion--and not even one that is at least nominally supported by any objective evidence, or that is even reconcilable with known facts (eg the fact that MJ didn't write "Human Nature" and the straight man who did write it didn't write it with him in mind).

Or your hilariously ignorant arguments in the Fela/JB thread (which I've already alluded to) which did not so much upset me as they amused me. (Comparing Fela to Osadebe as an example of "NIgerian music before James Brown"? I'm like--what?)

I mean, right here in this discussion, you could have said "I don't think the Jacksons wrote these songs because _______" and it would have been cool... But instead, you come in saying "THEY DIDN'T WRITE THEM! Anybody who thinks otherwise, including those who have inside sources and have written extensively about such things? Those people are fools! My ears tell me that they didn't write them because they were not songwriters!"

(Never mind that you admit you have no Jacksons compositions from the same period with which to compare the songs stylistically... but hey: you have EARS!)

(The same ears that told you Stephen Osita Osadebe represents "the sound of Nigerian music before James Brown")

Yup... Willfully, arrogantly ignorant.

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denny
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Mon Mar-14-11 05:38 AM

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54. "I'll respond to this cause I respect you."
In response to Reply # 53


          

but you're outta line and offsides.

>The sig in my quote is by a white man (duh) and he's simply
>(and cleverly) encapsulating the notion that America's unique
>notion of "hipness" is rooted in the cultural complexities
>resulting from the trans-atlantic slave trade. I think it is
>quite apt... however, if you want to start picking it apart in
>literal terms, be my guest. I just don't understand why any
>person of wit would do that.

That only makes that quote worse. It's patronizing. America's notion of 'hip' is alot more complicated than simply being of african origin.

>Finally... The reason I cal you willfully ignorant is because
>you have a habit of coming into posts to make some definitive
>pronouncements like "Michael Jackson is gay and Human Nature
>is evidence of that" and I'm thinking "wow... this kid must
>have done that super-heavy research or have some inside
>source," just to find out that all you have is your
>opinion--and not even one that is at least nominally supported
>by any objective evidence, or that is even reconcilable with
>known facts (eg the fact that MJ didn't write "Human Nature"
>and the straight man who did write it didn't write it with him
>in mind).

I never spoke of MJ being gay in direct relation to my understanding of 'human nature'. But MJ was gay. And so was Human Nature. That's how I said it.

>Or your hilariously ignorant arguments in the Fela/JB thread
>(which I've already alluded to) which did not so much upset me
>as they amused me. (Comparing Fela to Osadebe as an example of
>"NIgerian music before James Brown"? I'm like--what?)

If I remember correctly...I asked if that was a fair characterization. That Osadebe could stand as an example of Nigerian pop music before JB and Fela after JB's influence.

>I mean, right here in this discussion, you could have said "I
>don't think the Jacksons wrote these songs because _______"
>and it would have been cool... But instead, you come in saying
>"THEY DIDN'T WRITE THEM! Anybody who thinks otherwise,
>including those who have inside sources and have written
>extensively about such things? Those people are fools! My ears
>tell me that they didn't write them because they were not
>songwriters!"

Man...read my post. "Only speculating here but......" You're trying to paint me into something I'm obviously not. I don't search the internet for information....I don't have the facts. I've always indicated when I'm speculating.

>(Never mind that you admit you have no Jacksons compositions
>from the same period with which to compare the songs
>stylistically... but hey: you have EARS!)

Yah well hopefully we'll all learn the truth. You ask me? The J5 did not write those songs.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Mon Mar-14-11 06:49 AM

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55. "RE: I'll respond to this cause I respect you."
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

>That only makes that quote worse. It's patronizing.
>America's notion of 'hip' is alot more complicated than simply
>being of african origin.

Again: I don't understand the kind of wit-deficit that would make someone go to such great lengths to deconstruct what is just supposed to be a brief and pithy quip... but sure: let's go there.

Yes indeed there are a number of sources for the American-style swagger that has defined coolness for the world over the past century. But a few questions:

-Did the concept of "hip" (or before it, "hep") originate in the African-American community?
-Is the word itself generally traced to the Wolof language of West Africa?
-Did its popularity in mainstream America come from its use by white "hepcats" who built their identity around emulating African-American mannerisms?
-Do the rhythmic qualities that tend to define "hip" (whether it be in music, speech or just physical movement) generally come from African-American sources?
-Does the majority of "cool" American music have African sources? Or at the very least, sub-Mason-Dixie sources?
-Is Southern culture in itself a hybrid that was created with a strong African-American influence that was exerted upon both blacks AND whites in the region?
-Do not many white people use the term "white" to describe a certain kind of squareness (self-deprecatingly or not)?

Just in case you are wondering, the answer to every one of these questions is "yes."

As such, the Brian Eno quote rings of truth.


>I never spoke of MJ being gay in direct relation to my
>understanding of 'human nature'. But MJ was gay. And so was
>Human Nature. That's how I said it.

Okay. Would you have said that "Human Nature" was a gay anthem had it been released by Toto rather than by the "gay" Michael Jackson? And what evidence do you have to support Michael Jackson was gay?

By the way, he very well could have been... I don't know. But I'm just interested in why you're so comfortable repeating that over and over without offering a shred of evidence to support it.

Or is it just more of your "speculation"?

>If I remember correctly...I asked if that was a fair
>characterization. That Osadebe could stand as an example of
>Nigerian pop music before JB and Fela after JB's influence.

Okay. I'll give you that. My bad.

>Man...read my post. "Only speculating here but......" You're
>trying to paint me into something I'm obviously not. I don't
>search the internet for information....I don't have the facts.
> I've always indicated when I'm speculating.

Right. But those who do believe that they wrote them and HAVE searched for information and supposedly found information from people who might know a little bit about the situation--those people are, according to you, "fools."

If you were truly "depending on your ears" as you claim, you should have just said "It doesn't sound like J5 wrote them.... they don't sound like stuff they'd write" etc.

(Of course, even that statement would have been problematic as you don't have any songs they wrote from the same period to compare)

Instead you start talking about how the writing credit was "promotions" and anybody who believes it "is taking credits too seriously." Unless you can provide some sort of solid evidence, that is a pretty baseless statement. Similarly baseless is the speculation that the song were probably in J5's repertoire as there are load of live recordings from the period and (to the best of my knowledge, anyway) there's no record of them singing those songs.

And even if indeed those songs just happened to be in their repertoire, you think they'd be able to get away with claiming *full* writing credit on them without SOME kind of legal action? In the early 1970s music business? Even Berry Gordy couldn't get away with stealing full credit from songwriters... he at least left them with a partial credit. And Joe & the Jacksons didn't have anything approaching the kind of clout Berry did.

None of your theories make sense to me. Just say that you don't think they wrote the songs and call it a day.


>Yah well hopefully we'll all learn the truth. You ask me? The
>J5 did not write those songs.

Fine. Your opinion, your right.

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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soulfunk
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Mon Mar-14-11 11:41 AM

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61. "lol @ this exchange...hecks yeah those girls were thick!"
In response to Reply # 55


  

          

I have no idea how anyone could use the word "skinny" to describe that kinda shape...

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Mon Mar-14-11 01:23 PM

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65. "MY MAN (c) "
In response to Reply # 61


  

          

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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mwasi kitoko
Member since Jul 15th 2007
60768 posts
Mon Mar-14-11 08:17 AM

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56. "because berry gordy was a control freak who had a forumla"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

and didn't want to fuck it up.

www.royallegacy.org
http://therapfest.com/up-next-artists/

  

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BootyGreen
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Mon Mar-14-11 10:54 AM

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60. "RE: because berry gordy was a control freak who had a forumla"
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

Interestingly enough, he allowed Stevie Wonder to contribute to his songwriting (as well as that of other Motown artists) starting at the age of 15. If Gordy hadn't played hardball, Destiny and Triumph (Thriller perhaps?) could have been Motown albums.

_______________________________________
"I whipped him with a switch and a belt. I never beat him. You beat someone with a stick." - Joe Jackson

  

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mwasi kitoko
Member since Jul 15th 2007
60768 posts
Mon Mar-14-11 11:46 AM

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62. "i think 'cause stevie understood and added to the motown sound"
In response to Reply # 60
Mon Mar-14-11 11:47 AM by mwasi kitoko

  

          

he grew with it whereas the jackson 5 grew up on it (stevie being ten years into the game already by the time they arrived)
with the jackson five he (gordy) seemed skeptical of them beyond michael
and packaged them very rigidly to fill (and dominate) a certain niche in the market.
they were the novelty act that actually had talent.
at least that's how it seems to me

www.royallegacy.org
http://therapfest.com/up-next-artists/

  

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Harlepolis
Member since Jan 09th 2011
1867 posts
Mon Mar-14-11 11:59 AM

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63. "RE: because berry gordy was a control freak who had a forumla"
In response to Reply # 60


  

          

Stevie armed himself with lawyers who chewed on glass and fed Berry a taste of his own bullying medicine. Him giving Stevie creative control wasn't from the goodness of his heart, it was a battle that Stevie fought for the 1st 22 years of his life.

The man knew HIS side of the business and manipulated for his own advantage, J5's country ass bama ass lizard lookin' daddy didn't.

  

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mwasi kitoko
Member since Jul 15th 2007
60768 posts
Mon Mar-14-11 01:35 PM

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66. "that i can see."
In response to Reply # 63


  

          

definitely having him on the writing team i'm sure he only wanted certain songs from him.

www.royallegacy.org
http://therapfest.com/up-next-artists/

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Mon Mar-14-11 01:48 PM

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67. "LMAO"
In response to Reply # 63


  

          

>The man knew HIS side of the business and manipulated for his
>own advantage, J5's country ass bama ass lizard lookin' daddy
>didn't.

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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MME
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Mon Mar-14-11 08:01 PM

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68. "RE: because berry gordy was a control freak who had a forumla"
In response to Reply # 63


  

          


>The man knew HIS side of the business and manipulated for his
>own advantage, J5's country ass bama ass lizard lookin' daddy
>didn't.
>

YES! (c) Marv Albert

____________________________

FUCK DONALD TRUMP

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
15625 posts
Mon Mar-14-11 12:09 PM

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64. "Because they didn't know how to write songs until Gamble and Huff "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

taught them.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

  

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