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nappiness
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1145 posts
Thu Jun-08-00 09:03 AM

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"African vs./or African American"


          

Okay Boodah and Odu, what's up with this African vs. African American debate.
I view us as Africans displaced in the americas.

What do you call a white afrikaan?


Nappiness is next to Godliness!!!
"To thy ownself be true"
Ms. Nappiness

---------------
Veronica-Precious
'Moon'

Check out my publishing company
UnSilenced Woman Press
www.unsilencedwomanpress.com


AquaMoon
Aqua Beats and Moon Verses: Volume I
http://www.spokenexistence.com/aqua_moon.html

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
You asked
Jun 08th 2000
1
Amen, Boodah...
Jun 09th 2000
19
      Are you around Africans born in Africa much
Jun 09th 2000
30
           Thought I Was Alone
Jun 09th 2000
32
                I'm not arguing....
Jun 09th 2000
33
                     I Feel You
Jun 09th 2000
35
                          RE: I Feel You
Jun 09th 2000
36
I want somma dis but
Jun 08th 2000
2
Listen to NuShooz...
Jun 08th 2000
3
      Black on Both sides
KoalaLove
Jun 08th 2000
4
      I'm sure I'll regret this
Jun 09th 2000
14
           I said
KoalaLove
Jun 09th 2000
16
                "damn" ?
Jun 09th 2000
20
                     What did I say!?
KoalaLove
Jun 09th 2000
22
                          Stop yelling at me, dammit!
Jun 09th 2000
25
      NO HYPHEN!!!!
Jun 08th 2000
7
      Boo, have I told you
Jun 09th 2000
15
RE: African vs./or African American
Jun 08th 2000
5
RE: African vs./or African American
Jun 08th 2000
6
      PLAY NICE
Jun 08th 2000
9
      RE: African vs./or African American
Jun 08th 2000
11
           RE: African vs./or African American
Jun 09th 2000
23
                Hey odu
Jun 09th 2000
24
                     RE: Hey odu
Jun 09th 2000
29
RE: African vs./or African American
sinestress
Jun 08th 2000
8
"Black Is Black"
Jun 08th 2000
10
Dope
Jun 08th 2000
12
RE:
Jun 09th 2000
27
      Its Cool...
Jun 09th 2000
40
           RE: Its Cool...
Jun 14th 2000
55
RE: African vs./or African American
Xala
Jun 08th 2000
13
RE: African vs./or African American
Jun 09th 2000
17
      RE: African vs./or African American
Xala
Jun 09th 2000
21
           True dat - on the TV thing
Jun 09th 2000
26
           EACH ONE TEACH ONE
Jun 11th 2000
42
           RE: African vs./or African American
Jun 09th 2000
28
           RE: African vs./or African American
Xala
Jun 12th 2000
44
                RE: African vs./or African American
Jun 12th 2000
45
                     RE: African vs./or African American
Xala
Jun 13th 2000
50
                          RE: African vs./or African American
Jun 14th 2000
54
                               RE: African vs./or African American
Jun 14th 2000
56
           RE: African vs./or African American
Jun 10th 2000
41
all of this reminds me...
Jun 09th 2000
18
If they are white & living in Africa
Jun 09th 2000
31
RE: If they are white & living in Africa
Jun 09th 2000
34
I hear you, but...
Jun 09th 2000
37
      my experience
Quinn
Jun 09th 2000
38
           RE: my experience
Jun 09th 2000
39
RE: If they are white & living in Africa
Xala
Jun 11th 2000
43
Call my view "limited"
Jun 13th 2000
46
RE: Call my view
Jun 13th 2000
47
      Way to win support. . .
Jun 13th 2000
48
why african over african american
earthboy
Jun 13th 2000
49
concept
dr_no
Jun 14th 2000
51
      good points!
Jun 14th 2000
52
           RE: good points!
Jun 14th 2000
53
           RE: good points!
Xala
Jun 14th 2000
58
race matters
Jiggly_Puff
Jun 14th 2000
57

BooDaah
Charter member
32690 posts
Thu Jun-08-00 09:13 AM

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1. "You asked"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Follow me this may get a little convoluted.

I believe that after several hundred year on this soil, we as Black people have created a culture (language, music, everything else that is intrinsically US) unique to others within the African diaspora. Since I was young I have called this "Black American Culture" and refer to myself as "Black". It was good enough for James Brown, Malcolm, and my mother it's cool for me too.

Africa is a continent full of unique cultures so I believe the terms "African" as a means of delineating culture is deficient.

I have no problem with those who wish to remind of the link between Black in America and people indigenous to the African continent, but I find the term "African America" to be pretty generic if not misleading (should it be American-African for those whose genesis is on these shores?).

I'll cut it short there and further explain/discuss if the converstion warrants.

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah
OkayActivist Moderator

Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
step 1. inform yourself
step 2. inform others
step 3. discuss the problem
step 4. DISCUSS SOLUTIONS
step 5. EXECUTE SOLUTIONS
step 6. evaluate how well the solution worked
step 7. start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html

  

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DivineVersatile
Charter member
5491 posts
Fri Jun-09-00 03:44 AM

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19. "Amen, Boodah..."
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

This US culture is completely unique in and of itself. When have you ever heard an Africa native saying "I'm from Africa"? Perhaps from Senegal, Nigeria, Ethiopia...but "I'm from Africa?" Never.

The reason that we (and by we I mean this country) consider ourselves as Americans is because The US is a homogenized culture with minimal variations throughout its various states. However, even within these "states"<--(which is another gem I won't get into now), Black people tend to regionalize themselves. For example, "I'm from the dirty-dirty", "WHERE BROOKLYN AT?", "We from the wild, wild 100s", etc. So to claim all of Africa, though our mother, is a gross error and another residual result from having our history snatched from us and not knowing where to begin to pick up the pieces.

The Infamous DVSJ

*************************
MY VERY OWN HIPPIDY-HOP! I'M GOING TO LOVE YOU AND PLAY WITH YOU FOR EVER AND EVER!!!

Elmyra....the choice of a new generation

  

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nahymsa
Charter member
1734 posts
Fri Jun-09-00 01:17 PM

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30. "Are you around Africans born in Africa much"
In response to Reply # 19


          

Because I am and they say "i'm african" all the time.

>The US is a homogenized culture with minimal >variations throughout its various states.

No its not.

To claim Africa is to link us in unity and heritage to other African across the diaspora. Do you feel its wrong for the French, English & Italians to call themselves Europeans. There is a European consortium right now, what's the difference btwn that and what we are doing by calling ourselves Africans?

  

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odu
Member since Jun 02nd 2002
33 posts
Fri Jun-09-00 01:59 PM

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32. "Thought I Was Alone"
In response to Reply # 30


          

I didn't want to be the only one saying it. Thank you for reppin'

Quite frankly, the first thing you hear from most continental Africans' mouths is "I'm an African." There is a strong, pan-continental identity that most Africans feel, and there is no less a bond between those of us who weren't born on the continent. Calling ourselves Africans reaffirms the commonality of our origins and relegates the circumstances of our birth (with a couple of twists in fate, I may have been born in Cuba or in Bahia or in Charleston, South Carolina). We are irrevocably linked through our African blood (which is inclusive of every variant of our lifeways from Virginia to Vai), and that's why I feel it is completely appropriate, even necessary, to call yourself an African if you are a person of African ancestry. It by no means disavows our individual cultures, just like calling yourself an American (which I'm fine with if it's the country of your birth) doesn't mean you fail to rep Uptown or N'awlins or whatever. Inclusive, macroscopic terms like "Africa" and "Africans" are very necessary if we are to recognize the commonality of our struggles and the beauties of our similarity. It doesn't mean you have to abandon whatever word signifies you on the micro level.

"A-F-R-I-C-A! Puerto Rico, Haiti and JA
New York and Cali, F-L-A
Yo it ain't bout where you stay
It's 'bout the motherland!"

Much as I think dead prez is overhyped, I really feel the message of that song.

  

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BooDaah
Charter member
32690 posts
Fri Jun-09-00 02:16 PM

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33. "I'm not arguing...."
In response to Reply # 32


          

...but to me what you use the term "African" to do, I use Black to do (ie Black American, Black South African, whatever).

ultimately, i really think it's a matter of preference.

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah
OkayActivist Moderator

Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
step 1. inform yourself
step 2. inform others
step 3. discuss the problem
step 4. DISCUSS SOLUTIONS
step 5. EXECUTE SOLUTIONS
step 6. evaluate how well the solution worked
step 7. start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html

  

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odu
Member since Jun 02nd 2002
33 posts
Fri Jun-09-00 02:45 PM

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35. "I Feel You"
In response to Reply # 33


          

I don't really have a problem with the term "Black"--its equally valid to me (and sometimes even preferrable when I talk about Black folks that may are African, but in a distant sense, i.e. the Tamils in India and Sri Lanka, Australian Aborigine nations and so on).

  

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odu
Member since Jun 02nd 2002
33 posts
Fri Jun-09-00 02:50 PM

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36. "RE: I Feel You"
In response to Reply # 35


          

when I talk
>about Black folks that may
>are African

Obviously, I meant "may be African." I hate typos.

  

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nushooz
Member since Nov 05th 2002
14 posts
Thu Jun-08-00 10:08 AM

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2. "I want somma dis but"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I don't know where to start.

America belongs to me more so than anybody else here. Why? Because my ancestors built this country from the ground up - with out pay and to this day without reparations. So America is mine.

I'm claiming Africa too. There is not a place on earth where there are more people that look like me.

As for as what I want to be called... it really doesn't matter. But if I had to pick, my first choice would be Black, second would be African American. Black - because those things that Boo talked about that are indigenous to my people - those things are in my soul. "Race is skin deep but BLACK is to the soul."

African American because I lay claim to both those places.

But what of the obvious, over-asked question: "Why are Black people still debating and discussing this?"

Live from the Shoe Sto'
NuShooz
I,I, I Can't Wait!

Live from the Shoe Sto, the Mall and NOW the courtroom


I, I, I Can't Wait?
U've waited long enuff!

  

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BooDaah
Charter member
32690 posts
Thu Jun-08-00 10:23 AM

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3. "Listen to NuShooz..."
In response to Reply # 2


          

...she knows things.

I don't think it's a debate per se (not for me at least), just a matter of preference. It's not the ones calling me an African-American I have a problem with, its the ones who secretly (and openly) call me and mines niggers with their foot in my throat holding us down.

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah
OkayActivist Moderator

Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
step 1. inform yourself
step 2. inform others
step 3. discuss the problem
step 4. DISCUSS SOLUTIONS
step 5. EXECUTE SOLUTIONS
step 6. evaluate how well the solution worked
step 7. start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html

  

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KoalaLove

Thu Jun-08-00 10:33 AM

  
4. "Black on Both sides"
In response to Reply # 3


          

y'all know where i am on this

Black like the side of the moon you dont see

  

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nushooz
Member since Nov 05th 2002
14 posts
Fri Jun-09-00 03:14 AM

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14. "I'm sure I'll regret this"
In response to Reply # 4


          

:) but just where are you on this? Is it archived somewhere? Or is it in another post somewhere?

Live from the Shoe Sto'
NuShooz
I,I, I Can't Wait!

Live from the Shoe Sto, the Mall and NOW the courtroom


I, I, I Can't Wait?
U've waited long enuff!

  

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KoalaLove

Fri Jun-09-00 03:21 AM

  
16. "I said"
In response to Reply # 14


          

Black like the side of the moon you dont see- damn

my opinions are archived but its pretty much what boodah just said anf a few other points here and there.

K

  

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nushooz
Member since Nov 05th 2002
14 posts
Fri Jun-09-00 03:46 AM

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20. ""damn" ?"
In response to Reply # 16


          

was that necessary?
Remeber that "prodding" that you claim to do in your somewhat antagonizing reply to a post of mine?

I'm so sorry to have rubbed your hairy a$$ the wrong way. Did you get up on the wrong side of the tree this morning? Do we need to take this to email, BUDDY!

Who's afraid of a fuzzy wuzzy Koala Bear, anyway?

Live from the Shoe Sto'
NuShooz
I,I, I Can't Wait!

Live from the Shoe Sto, the Mall and NOW the courtroom


I, I, I Can't Wait?
U've waited long enuff!

  

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KoalaLove

Fri Jun-09-00 05:08 AM

  
22. "What did I say!?"
In response to Reply # 20


          

how come no matter what i say or how i say it- people think Im mad.

Damn shooz I was just answering your question- you're just mad cuz you missed the bike rally

  

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nushooz
Member since Nov 05th 2002
14 posts
Fri Jun-09-00 05:57 AM

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25. "Stop yelling at me, dammit!"
In response to Reply # 22


          

Yeah I'm mad! Mad that I missed the bike rally and came to the OKay Reunion to kick your butt and you weren't there!

Do you wanna take this to email, Buddy?

I ain skerd a you!

Okay Love, K, Okay Love

Live
Nu
I,I, I Can't Wait!

Live from the Shoe Sto, the Mall and NOW the courtroom


I, I, I Can't Wait?
U've waited long enuff!

  

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nappiness
Charter member
1145 posts
Thu Jun-08-00 06:53 PM

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7. "NO HYPHEN!!!!"
In response to Reply # 3


          

there you go with that hyphen *smile*!
Black is my culture, (inclusive of all those things you said in your initial response)
but my race is African American. in all actuality, i don't have a problem with Negro or Coloured. Now nigga, i got's problems with.
but i did hear an interesting take on nigga. this scholar told me that nigga isn't derogatory b/c it refers to the country and river, Niger. now that's some ole' black intelligensia bullshit that i don't buy.

Nappiness is next to Godliness!!!
"To thy ownself be true"
Ms. Nappiness

---------------
Veronica-Precious
'Moon'

Check out my publishing company
UnSilenced Woman Press
www.unsilencedwomanpress.com


AquaMoon
Aqua Beats and Moon Verses: Volume I
http://www.spokenexistence.com/aqua_moon.html

  

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nushooz
Member since Nov 05th 2002
14 posts
Fri Jun-09-00 03:16 AM

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15. "Boo, have I told you"
In response to Reply # 3


          

that you are the BEST moderator up in this peice?

Live from the Shoe Sto'
NuShooz
I,I, I Can't Wait!

Live from the Shoe Sto, the Mall and NOW the courtroom


I, I, I Can't Wait?
U've waited long enuff!

  

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mke
Member since Oct 20th 2002
3 posts
Thu Jun-08-00 11:04 AM

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5. "RE: African vs./or African American"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I'm French, from the French West Indies. Does that make me Afro-French? Do I want to be known as that? Well, no. I don't even want to be considered French.

As for the term African-American, I think BooDah was right to mention the fact that the term or concept of Africa contains a vast array of countries and cultures: From the very Arab and Arab-influenced Northern Africa and Sahel regions to West Africa (from where the men who were made into slaves were mainly taken), to East Africa to Madagascar, with its mainly Polynesian culture. East and West Africa have two distinctly different original cultures and colonial experiences (one largely French, the other largely English). I say this from first-hand experience, having lived 5 years in Kenya and traveled to Western Africa.

On top of that, the "black" american culture is it's own. Just like the "white" australian culture is it's own or the South American experience is its own, neither African nor Spanish. To me, the term African-American has never made sense.



AIM: mke1978

"L'actualité régionale: c'est vous qui la vivez, c'est nous qui en vivons"
In English:
"Local news: you live it, we live off it"
- Jules-Edouard Moustic, 20H20

"There's no blood in my body/It's liquid soul in my veins"
- Roots Manuva (check the fantastic album "Brand New Second Hand")




  

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odu
Member since Jun 02nd 2002
33 posts
Thu Jun-08-00 03:01 PM

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6. "RE: African vs./or African American"
In response to Reply # 5


          

Frankly, that would make you French.

It would also make you largely irrelevant to this discussion.

  

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nappiness
Charter member
1145 posts
Thu Jun-08-00 06:59 PM

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9. "PLAY NICE"
In response to Reply # 6


          

PLAY NICE *SMILE*
Everyone's comments are relevant although they may not be agreeable.
that's like when i was in Cuba, I couldn't get use to many of the Afro Cubans referring to themselves as Mulatto/a but they didn't like when we (Black Americans) called them Afro Cubanos/as.
Now mulatto, that word makes me cringe. A mule doesn't reproduce and to refer to a mixed/multicultured/bi-cultural person as that, i think that's mean. but it's only mean if you understand the origin and deragoratory nature of the word.
Nappiness is next to Godliness!!!
"To thy ownself be true"
Ms. Nappiness

---------------
Veronica-Precious
'Moon'

Check out my publishing company
UnSilenced Woman Press
www.unsilencedwomanpress.com


AquaMoon
Aqua Beats and Moon Verses: Volume I
http://www.spokenexistence.com/aqua_moon.html

  

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mke
Member since Oct 20th 2002
3 posts
Thu Jun-08-00 09:24 PM

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11. "RE: African vs./or African American"
In response to Reply # 6


          

>Frankly, that would make you French.
>

The only thing I share with the Frenchman is the passport.

>
>It would also make you largely
>irrelevant to this discussion.

Martinique is in the Americas. I am of African descent, just like African-Americans. But then again, my personal life-experience has relatively little to do with people of any culture, so I don't necessarily mind being excluded from this discussion.

AIM: mke1978

"L'actualité régionale: c'est vous qui la vivez, c'est nous qui en vivons"
In English:
"Local news: you live it, we live off it"
- Jules-Edouard Moustic, 20H20

"There's no blood in my body/It's liquid soul in my veins"
- Roots Manuva (check the fantastic album "Brand New Second Hand")




  

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odu
Member since Jun 02nd 2002
33 posts
Fri Jun-09-00 05:52 AM

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23. "RE: African vs./or African American"
In response to Reply # 11


          

You said you were "French", and I believe in self-determination.


  

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BooDaah
Charter member
32690 posts
Fri Jun-09-00 05:57 AM

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24. "Hey odu"
In response to Reply # 23


          

since you pretty much started this dialog, I'm waiting for your commentson the topic....
------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah
OkayActivist Moderator

Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
step 1. inform yourself
step 2. inform others
step 3. discuss the problem
step 4. DISCUSS SOLUTIONS
step 5. EXECUTE SOLUTIONS
step 6. evaluate how well the solution worked
step 7. start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html

  

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odu
Member since Jun 02nd 2002
33 posts
Fri Jun-09-00 06:14 AM

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29. "RE: Hey odu"
In response to Reply # 24


          

I'm an African, I'm an African.

And I know what's happening.

  

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sinestress

Thu Jun-08-00 06:54 PM

  
8. "RE: African vs./or African American"
In response to Reply # 0


          

>What do you call a white afrikaan?

an albino.

  

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poetx
Charter member
58826 posts
Thu Jun-08-00 07:21 PM

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10. ""Black Is Black""
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Black is universal. African American, and all the other combinations and permutations are limiting (plus have mad syllables), and do not designate race, but national and cultural specificity.

as a writer, i'll switch up and use AA every once in awhile, but as has been pointed out, even the word "African" can confuse matters. its cool to the extent that it makes us think about Africa when we otherwise wouldn't, but in a lot of cases, it promotes the whole "continent as country" bullshit that trivializes the tremendous diversity of culture and shared experience that exists among non-white people.

y'all can tell the difference between and Englishman, a Scot, a German, a Spaniard, an Italian and a Frenchman no doubt. but can you do the same for a Senagalese, Ethiopian, Nigerian, Ugandan, etc.?

when African American first came into "vogue", the proponents were pointing out that previous terms, like colored, negro and Black, didn't tie us to a landmass, an origin (and Africa was as specific as we could get). based on that reasoning, i used to think it was aight as a synonym, at the least, and could be useful in awakening some type of pan-african consciousness. but what quickly ensued is that you had folks loving it because it allowed them to affirm and emphasize the "American" part (after 400 years, if muhfuckas haven't caught on to the fact that we're 'american', they really ain't gonna get it no matter what we call ourselves). others of us quickly coopted the symbols and trappings of africana, without any deeper analysis or understanding -- so it is that we got preachers that drape a little kente cloth around the same ol' king james shit they been talking for years.

besides, like the race names of many other non-white peoples, the term African is not indigenous. we never called ourselves Africans in antiquity (i've read in several places that as far as historians can tell, the word originated centuries ago with a slave named Leo Africanus...). its akin to the folks we call American Indians. even though they were almost completely wiped out, and were "named" by a cat with a fucked up sense of direction, its ironic that a lot of their true languages and names survive on maps as names of rivers and towns, etc.

"Black", a name derived from an exaggerated physical description of skin color, actually has deeper roots then most of us realize. some of the ancient names from indigenous "africans" referred to themselves as "people or children of the sun". place-names like "AlKeBuLan" and "Kemet" actually translate to "land of the blacks" (Kemet, of course, being the name the so-called Egyptians gave their own civilization before the Greeks gave us "Egypt" or Aeigyptos, which means land of the sun burnt people, by the way). unlike the appellations, "colored", "negro", and "nigger", we actually gave ourselves "Black", and it turns out to be the most historically appropriate way to address each other without excluding huge sections of our extended family tree from the discourse.

so, if i need to be specific, i'll go there. when discussing Roy Hargrove's (or Dizzy Gillespie's) musical influence, the designation Afro-Cuban is significant. but if i'm building with somebody on global politics and economics, we Black.

hope this is helpful.

peace,

x.


"do i love you cause you drive me crazy/
or do i love you for the Africa in you" Get Set V.O.P

"...picked me up around 10/
an i was going to see my favorite speaker -- Dr. Ben/
Kwabinah didn't riff, he just gave me a lift/
so we took a short drive to 125th" Kundalini - Get Set V.O.P

" i be the sandalwood-smellin, no drug sellin/
never even seen a misdemeanor or a felon-/
-y see, the p o e t, the x is/
rhymin for my brothers givin others complexes" poetx '93

peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
I'm an advocate for working smarter, not harder. If you just
focus on working hard you end up making someone else rich and
not having much to show for it. (c) mad

  

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mke
Member since Oct 20th 2002
3 posts
Thu Jun-08-00 09:26 PM

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12. "Dope"
In response to Reply # 10


          

Excellent post! Though I prefer the term Brown (1. it is "truer" 2. In Martinique a "nègre marron" (brown negro) is a slave that has escaped slavery, and I like the connotations), your breakdown is enlightening and very well-reasoned.

AIM: mke1978

"L'actualité régionale: c'est vous qui la vivez, c'est nous qui en vivons"
In English:
"Local news: you live it, we live off it"
- Jules-Edouard Moustic, 20H20

"There's no blood in my body/It's liquid soul in my veins"
- Roots Manuva (check the fantastic album "Brand New Second Hand")




  

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odu
Member since Jun 02nd 2002
33 posts
Fri Jun-09-00 06:06 AM

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27. "RE:"
In response to Reply # 10


          


>as a writer, i'll switch up
>and use AA every once
>in awhile, but as has
>been pointed out, even the
>word "African" can confuse matters.

I don't see how the word "African" confuses matters at all. I'm sure you've heard the term "Western Civilization" drummed into your skull countless times, and there's virtually no challenge to the validity of the term. I have no quibble with Africa, whether the term is indigenous or not ("Black" is not an "African" word, as far as I'm aware).

> its cool to the
>extent that it makes us
>think about Africa when we
>otherwise wouldn't, but in a
>lot of cases, it promotes
>the whole "continent as country"
>bullshit that trivializes the tremendous
>diversity of culture and shared
>experience that exists among non-white
>people.

Pan-Africanism promotes the whole "Africans-are-Africans, no-matter-where-they've-ended-up-in-the-diaspora" bullshit. It does not "trivialize" anything. Do you think Malcolm, Kwame Nkrumah, Patrice Lumumba etc. were trying to "trivialize" their individual cultures when they adopted that term?

>y'all can tell the difference between
>and Englishman, a Scot, a
>German, a Spaniard, an Italian
>and a Frenchman no doubt.
>but can you do the
>same for a Senagalese, Ethiopian,
>Nigerian, Ugandan, etc.?

Who is "y'all"? I can tell the difference between all of these culture, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone. This is an odd blanket statement.

reasoning,
>i used to think it
>was aight as a synonym,
>at the least, and could
>be useful in awakening some
>type of pan-african consciousness. but
>what quickly ensued is that
>you had folks loving it
>because it allowed them to
>affirm and emphasize the "American"
>part (after 400 years, if
>muhfuckas haven't caught on to
>the fact that we're 'american',
>they really ain't gonna get
>it no matter what we
>call ourselves). others of
>us quickly coopted the symbols
>and trappings of africana, without
>any deeper analysis or understanding
>-- so it is that
>we got preachers that drape
>a little kente cloth around
>the same ol' king james
>shit they been talking for
>years.


>besides, like the race names of
>many other non-white peoples, the
>term African is not indigenous.
>we never called ourselves Africans
>in antiquity (i've read in
>several places that as far
>as historians can tell, the
>word originated centuries ago with
>a slave named Leo Africanus...).

This is wrong. If you want a detailed explanation, I can give it to you, but I don't want to hold up this thread.


>
>"Black", a name derived from an
>exaggerated physical description of
>skin color, actually has deeper
>roots then most of us
>realize. some of the
>ancient names from indigenous "africans"
>referred to themselves as "people
>or children of the sun".
> place-names like "AlKeBuLan"
>and "Kemet" actually translate to
>"land of the blacks" (Kemet,
>of course, being the name
>the so-called Egyptians gave their
>own civilization before the Greeks
>gave us "Egypt" or Aeigyptos,
>which means land of the
>sun burnt people, by the
>way).

This is also wrong. "Black" is not at all an exaggerated physical description. I don't know about you, but I'm "Black." Several of my relatives are Black. And millions of people across the face of the earth answer to that description too. "Aeigyptos" does not mean land of the sun-burnt people. That's Aethiopia.

unlike the appellations, "colored",
>"negro", and "nigger", we actually
>gave ourselves "Black", and it
>turns out to be the
>most historically appropriate way to
>address each other without excluding
>huge sections of our extended
>family tree from the discourse.

We DIDN'T give ourselves the appelation "Black". Why do you say this?

>so, if i need to be
>specific, i'll go there. when
>discussing Roy Hargrove's (or Dizzy
>Gillespie's) musical influence, the designation
>Afro-Cuban is significant. but if
>i'm building with somebody on
>global politics and economics, we
>Black.

I hope I've clarified some stuff.

  

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poetx
Charter member
58826 posts
Fri Jun-09-00 08:41 PM

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40. "Its Cool..."
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

>
>>as a writer, i'll switch up
>>and use AA every once
>>in awhile, but as has
>>been pointed out, even the
>>word "African" can confuse matters.
>
>I don't see how the word
>"African" confuses matters at all.
>I'm sure you've heard the
>term "Western Civilization" drummed into
>your skull countless times, and
>there's virtually no challenge to
>the validity of the term.

i challenge the term "western civilization" almost every time i encounter it, but thats another matter. what i meant by "confusing the issue" is that "African" means so many different things to so many people that one has to be very certain of the speaker, the listener(s) and the context (more specific than i wanted to be posting at 1am in the morning). if i'm listening to say, someone steeped in the language of Black Nationalism, and i hear "Afrikan", i understand that they are probably referring to the universal African, the people of the diaspora, which could just as easily be a sista from St. Louis as a brother from Congo. someone who doesn't understand that context may just as easily assume the speaker's use of "Africans" refers solely to the current inhabitants of the mother continent. yet another self-described African American may feel some need to distinguish himself from a recent immigrant from Nigeria (would that Nigerian then be African African American, or a Nigerian-African-American?).

even more intriguing, to me, are the descendants of white (English, Boer, whatever) colonists who've enjoyed the fruits of centuries of exploitation and now call themselves Africans. like the landowners in Zimbabwe who don't want to address the sins of the father...


>I have no quibble with
>Africa, whether the term is
>indigenous or not ("Black" is
>not an "African" word, as
>far as I'm aware).

i have no quibble with Africa either, (i'm a proud African), just pointing out that the vast differences in peoples understanding of who is African (due to the influence of education from Western Civilization) further complicate the already complicated issue of self-identity for people who've already been confused for centuries.


>> its cool to the
>>extent that it makes us
>>think about Africa when we
>>otherwise wouldn't, but in a
>>lot of cases, it promotes
>>the whole "continent as country"
>>bullshit that trivializes the tremendous
>>diversity of culture and shared
>>experience that exists among non-white
>>people.
>
>Pan-Africanism promotes the whole "Africans-are-Africans, no-matter-where-they've-ended-up-in-the-diaspora"
>bullshit. It does not "trivialize"
>anything. Do you think Malcolm,
>Kwame Nkrumah, Patrice Lumumba etc.
>were trying to "trivialize" their
>individual cultures when they adopted
>that term?

*aargh* that's not where i was going with that statement, which is why i qualified it with "its cool to the extent..." what i was addressing was the mainstream mindstate, under so-called 'western civilization', which differentiates and affirms Culture, Nationality, History, etc, only when dealing with European people, but insists upon dealing with others in the most broad and generic sense. Indians are not Sioux or Dakota or Chocktaw. Asians are not Korean or Vietnamese or Chinese. Hispanics are not Venezuelan, Peruvian, Chilean. they are a bunch of folks who just fit into a big fuzzy groups of other-ness, to be discussed when there's nothing going on in the Balkans.

i consider myself pan-africanist and black nationalist, and certainly wouldn't be contradicting Lumumba, Nkrumah or Malcolm. but an acknowledgement of our (Black people's) similarities across the diaspora needs to be accompanied with a knowledge of self which is largely absent among the 30 million or so of us trying to figure out what to call ourselves. and the assumption that i make in answering this post is that we're discussing what the masses should call their/our-selves, and why. intelligentsia and academics (not necessarily the same) are going to have their favorite terminology regardless, the issue is really what most of us should call ourselves, and why. and that said, i still feel that Black is more universal than African American (Black vs. African would be a different discussion).



>
>>y'all can tell the difference between
>>and Englishman, a Scot, a
>>German, a Spaniard, an Italian
>>and a Frenchman no doubt.
>>but can you do the
>>same for a Senagalese, Ethiopian,
>>Nigerian, Ugandan, etc.?
>
>Who is "y'all"? I can tell
>the difference between all of
>these culture, and I'm pretty
>sure I'm not alone. This
>is an odd blanket statement.

"y'all" is not you or me, individually. "y'all" is us, the masses of folks in this country who consider ourselves Black and/or African American. americans can't even find our own shit on the map, and our education in "western civilization" has made pretty sure most of us (and i'm confident in that generalization), have been taught not to view black folks on the same plane as white folks. witness the use in the news and media of terms like ethnic vs. tribal. spiritual vs. animist.


>
>
> reasoning,
>>i used to think it
>>was aight as a synonym,
>>at the least, and could
>>be useful in awakening some
>>type of pan-african consciousness. but
>>what quickly ensued is that
>>you had folks loving it
>>because it allowed them to
>>affirm and emphasize the "American"
>>part (after 400 years, if
>>muhfuckas haven't caught on to
>>the fact that we're 'american',
>>they really ain't gonna get
>>it no matter what we
>>call ourselves). others of
>>us quickly coopted the symbols
>>and trappings of africana, without
>>any deeper analysis or understanding
>>-- so it is that
>>we got preachers that drape
>>a little kente cloth around
>>the same ol' king james
>>shit they been talking for
>>years.
>
>
>>besides, like the race names of
>>many other non-white peoples, the
>>term African is not indigenous.
>>we never called ourselves Africans
>>in antiquity (i've read in
>>several places that as far
>>as historians can tell, the
>>word originated centuries ago with
>>a slave named Leo Africanus...).
>
>This is wrong. If you want
>a detailed explanation, I can
>give it to you, but
>I don't want to hold
>up this thread.
>

cool. show and prove. like i said, i saw it cited in several places, but now with enough evidence behind it for me to take it and present it as fact.
>
>>
>>"Black", a name derived from an
>>exaggerated physical description of
>>skin color, actually has deeper
>>roots then most of us
>>realize. some of the
>>ancient names from indigenous "africans"
>>referred to themselves as "people
>>or children of the sun".
>> place-names like "AlKeBuLan"
>>and "Kemet" actually translate to
>>"land of the blacks" (Kemet,
>>of course, being the name
>>the so-called Egyptians gave their
>>own civilization before the Greeks
>>gave us "Egypt" or Aeigyptos,
>>which means land of the
>>sun burnt people, by the
>>way).
>
>This is also wrong. "Black" is
>not at all an exaggerated
>physical description.

semantics. its a phenotypical description. yes, some of us still fit the literal description perfectly well, i put the word in there as a hedge in case somebody replied to say, "not me, i'm high yella". due to circumstances i don't need to discuss, we don't all fit the physical description anymore, but the term still signifies a mindstate and a genetic and cultural link. adam clayton powell was black. Clarence Thomas look black, but he somethin else.


I don't know
>about you, but I'm "Black."
>Several of my relatives are
>Black. And millions of people
>across the face of the
>earth answer to that description
>too. "Aeigyptos" does not mean
>land of the sun-burnt people.
>That's Aethiopia.

got me. again, i didn't have time to dig out "Civilization Or Barbarism" when replying to your post, and yes, Aethiops is actually the land of the sun-burnt people. Kemet, or Kmt, does however mean land of the blacks.

>
> unlike the appellations, "colored",
>>"negro", and "nigger", we actually
>>gave ourselves "Black", and it
>>turns out to be the
>>most historically appropriate way to
>>address each other without excluding
>>huge sections of our extended
>>family tree from the discourse.
>
>We DIDN'T give ourselves the appelation
>"Black". Why do you say
>this?

yes, i'm fully aware that the word "black" itself is English, and no more indigenous than the etymology of "African" - i was merely pointing out that we do have some history of self-identification by phenotype, so there's nothing wrong with the concept of us unified in "blackness". (the negative connotations of "blackness" in english and other european languages is a whole 'nother post).


>
>>so, if i need to be
>>specific, i'll go there. when
>>discussing Roy Hargrove's (or Dizzy
>>Gillespie's) musical influence, the designation
>>Afro-Cuban is significant. but if
>>i'm building with somebody on
>>global politics and economics, we
>>Black.
>
>I hope I've clarified some stuff.

yes, you did. hope i did to.

peace,

x.

peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
I'm an advocate for working smarter, not harder. If you just
focus on working hard you end up making someone else rich and
not having much to show for it. (c) mad

  

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odu
Member since Jun 02nd 2002
33 posts
Wed Jun-14-00 01:11 PM

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55. "RE: Its Cool..."
In response to Reply # 40


          

someone who doesn't understand
>that context may just as
>easily assume the speaker's use
>of "Africans" refers solely to
>the current inhabitants of the
>mother continent. yet another
>self-described African American may feel
>some need to distinguish himself
>from a recent immigrant from
>Nigeria (would that Nigerian then
>be African African American, or
>a Nigerian-African-American?).

I understand the hypotheticals that you're talking about, but I'm much more interested in self-definition. I self-identify as an African not to negate my own specific cultural roots, but to affirm my commonality with all those who look like me and who share those cultural roots. Black, in my mind, does not connote the sense of cultural unity that the word "African" does, and that's why I use it. I don't want us to be side-tracked about what terms others may prefer; they'll weigh in when they want. I would like to keep it as personal as possible.


>even more intriguing, to me, are
>the descendants of white (English,
>Boer, whatever) colonists who've enjoyed
>the fruits of centuries of
>exploitation and now call themselves
>Africans. like the landowners in
>Zimbabwe who don't want to
>address the sins of the
>father...

I think you give them too much credit. They're trying to strip every last vestige of cultural identity from us "kaffirs", and transform what it means to be "African". It's like Masons co-opting Egyptian paraphenalia and trying to pass themselves off as heirs to a heritage they have nothing to do with.

>
>>I have no quibble with
>>Africa, whether the term is
>>indigenous or not ("Black" is
>>not an "African" word, as
>>far as I'm aware).
>
>i have no quibble with Africa
>either, (i'm a proud African),
>just pointing out that the
>vast differences in peoples understanding
>of who is African (due
>to the influence of education
>from Western Civilization) further complicate
>the already complicated issue of
>self-identity for people who've
>already been confused for centuries.

I don't see how the term "Black" alleviates this on-going identity confusion, though.

>*aargh* that's not where i was
>going with that statement, which
>is why i qualified it
>with "its cool to the
>extent..." what i was addressing
>was the mainstream mindstate, under
>so-called 'western civilization', which differentiates
>and affirms Culture, Nationality, History,
>etc, only when dealing with
>European people, but insists upon
>dealing with others in the
>most broad and generic sense.
> Indians are not Sioux
>or Dakota or Chocktaw. Asians
>are not Korean or Vietnamese
>or Chinese. Hispanics are
>not Venezuelan, Peruvian, Chilean. they
>are a bunch of folks
>who just fit into a
>big fuzzy groups of other-ness,
>to be discussed when there's
>nothing going on in the
>Balkans.
>
>i consider myself pan-africanist and black
>nationalist, and certainly wouldn't be
>contradicting Lumumba, Nkrumah or Malcolm.
> but an acknowledgement of
>our (Black people's) similarities across
>the diaspora needs to be
>accompanied with a knowledge of
>self which is largely absent
>among the 30 million or
>so of us trying to
>figure out what to call
>ourselves. and the assumption that
>i make in answering this
>post is that we're discussing
>what the masses should call
>their/our-selves, and why.

This, perhaps, is the root of our disagreement. I believe that identity is the most personal decision we make in our lives, so I would have thought that this forum should focus on the idiocyncracies of that decision, not on a general prescription for the untutored masses. I'm just interested in you and what you call yourself; everybody else can speak for themselves. I think people of African descent who are native speakers of Spanish should immediately jettison the term "Latino" or the infinitely worse "Hispanic", as it is akin to African Americans calling themselves "Anglic". I don't make the decisions, though, so I go with what people prefer to be called.

intelligentsia and
>academics (not necessarily the same)
>are going to have their
>favorite terminology regardless, the issue
>is really what most of
>us should call ourselves, and
>why. and that said, i
>still feel that Black is
>more universal than African American
>(Black vs. African would be
>a different discussion).

Ah, but the thread is named "African vs. or African American", two terms that I think are complementary, and much more descriptive than "Black", which I also use.

>"y'all" is not you or me,
>individually. "y'all" is us, the
>masses of folks in this
>country who consider ourselves Black
>and/or African American. americans can't
>even find our own shit
>on the map, and our
>education in "western civilization" has
>made pretty sure most of
>us (and i'm confident in
>that generalization), have been taught
>not to view black folks
>on the same plane as
>white folks. witness the use
>in the news and media
>of terms like ethnic vs.
>tribal. spiritual vs. animist.

In complete agreement. I hate the use of "tribe" especially.

>>
>> reasoning,
>>>i used to think it
>>>was aight as a synonym,
>>>at the least, and could
>>>be useful in awakening some
>>>type of pan-african consciousness. but
>>>what quickly ensued is that
>>>you had folks loving it
>>>because it allowed them to
>>>affirm and emphasize the "American"
>>>part (after 400 years, if
>>>muhfuckas haven't caught on to
>>>the fact that we're 'american',
>>>they really ain't gonna get
>>>it no matter what we
>>>call ourselves). others of
>>>us quickly coopted the symbols
>>>and trappings of africana, without
>>>any deeper analysis or understanding
>>>-- so it is that
>>>we got preachers that drape
>>>a little kente cloth around
>>>the same ol' king james
>>>shit they been talking for
>>>years.

True, true. But are you telling me that you think this is all due to the adoption of the term "African American"? Preachers with kente-cloth sashes and cheap medallions made in China wouldn't exist without our Black folks in this country identifying themselves as African Americans?
>>
>>>besides, like the race names of
>>>many other non-white peoples, the
>>>term African is not indigenous.
>>>we never called ourselves Africans
>>>in antiquity (i've read in
>>>several places that as far
>>>as historians can tell, the
>>>word originated centuries ago with
>>>a slave named Leo Africanus...).
>>
>>This is wrong. If you want
>>a detailed explanation, I can
>>give it to you, but
>>I don't want to hold
>>up this thread.
>>
>
>cool. show and prove. like i
>said, i saw it cited
>in several places, but now
>with enough evidence behind it
>for me to take it
>and present it as fact.

Check this link: http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/30/140.html. The article above traces it to the Afers of North Africa (it neglects to mention that they're also in the Horn of East Africa), and also the biblical country "Ofir". More than likely, Africa is a corruption of an autochthonous term, like many of our appelations (Moor and Guinea spring to mind).

>>This is also wrong. "Black" is
>>not at all an exaggerated
>>physical description.
>
>semantics.

Not at all. You said we are not literally "Black". I said that we are. Perhaps not all, but some are. And our ancestors were. So I have no beef with it as a description. It drags the discussion into the realm of academe to call that a "semantic" argument.

its a phenotypical description. yes,
>some of us still fit
>the literal description perfectly well,
>i put the word in
>there as a hedge in
>case somebody replied to say,
>"not me, i'm high yella".

Africans range in color from "high yella" Khoi-san with Asian-looking eyes to tawny-shaded Imazighen (the name that "Berbers" call themselves"), to the perfectly jet-Black Noba. That's Africa for you. "Black" on the other hand, would be a fairly strange identity for a brown-skinned Dominican to claim. When they see that they look like Imazighen or Eritreans or Cabo Verdeans, it makes sense to identify themselves as Africans who were born in the Dominican Republic, not dark-skinned Spanish people who just happen to eat, dance, pray and talk like Africans.

>due to circumstances i don't
>need to discuss, we don't
>all fit the physical description
>anymore, but the term still
>signifies a mindstate and a
>genetic and cultural link. adam
>clayton powell was black. Clarence
>Thomas look black, but he
>somethin else.

I like your comparisons.

>I don't know
>>about you, but I'm "Black."
>>Several of my relatives are
>>Black. And millions of people
>>across the face of the
>>earth answer to that description
>>too. "Aeigyptos" does not mean
>>land of the sun-burnt people.
>>That's Aethiopia.
>
>got me. again, i didn't have
>time to dig out "Civilization
>Or Barbarism" when replying to
>your post, and yes, Aethiops
>is actually the land of
>the sun-burnt people. Kemet,
>or Kmt, does however mean
>land of the blacks.

Minor quibble, but I tend to go with the "Black land" translation, rather than the "Land of the Blacks" one. Reason being? Africa is a Black country, and Kmt was a nation surrounded by Black folks. Why would they need to call themselves "Black" on top of that? Now if you look at the Sumerians, who were neither Semitic or Indo-European people, their ethnic name was "the Black-headed people". I believe that they chose to distinguish themselves ethnically from their neighbors, but it would have been wierd for the folks of Kmt to call themselves "Black" in order to clarify that they're not Nubians. You get my drift? The "Black land" was in reference to the color of the Nile's banks when it overflowed every year. Its fertile deposit of silt is what made Kmt's civilization possible, so I think they commemorated the importance of the soil in the name of their land. Osiris is also the "Lord of the Perfect Black", in relation to his role as the rejuvinating fertility god.
>
>>
>> unlike the appellations, "colored",
>>>"negro", and "nigger", we actually
>>>gave ourselves "Black", and it
>>>turns out to be the
>>>most historically appropriate way to
>>>address each other without excluding
>>>huge sections of our extended
>>>family tree from the discourse.
>>
>>We DIDN'T give ourselves the appelation
>>"Black". Why do you say
>>this?
>
>yes, i'm fully aware that the
>word "black" itself is English,
>and no more indigenous than
>the etymology of "African" -

To quote Kris, "You Must LEARN" (even though that song is type suspect).

>i was merely pointing out
>that we do have some
>history of self-identification by phenotype,
>so there's nothing wrong with
>the concept of us unified
>in "blackness". (the negative connotations
>of "blackness" in english and
>other european languages is a
>whole 'nother post).

Thanks for a really thought-provoking post, X. It's folk like you that keep me constantly re-evaluating my position. Peace.

  

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Xala

Thu Jun-08-00 11:05 PM

  
13. "RE: African vs./or African American"
In response to Reply # 0


          

The problem with Africans is that they have a very myopic view of America. They are fascinated and repelled at the same time. Black Americans in some way are a threat to them.

Africans (for all intent purposes in this discussion: this been a grossly generalist statement) feel that in other to maintain some credible ground they have to keep other Black groups at bay; after all colonization did happen to them and of course they still suffer from the side effects: a very serious hangover.

In some ways Africans need a severe lesson: re – education. It is a lesson that will do them good. African Americans on the other hand should stop bitching about it and buy a plane ticket and go and explore; don’t fucking go the Bahamas instead.


  

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nushooz
Member since Nov 05th 2002
14 posts
Fri Jun-09-00 03:39 AM

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17. "RE: African vs./or African American"
In response to Reply # 13


          

>The problem with Africans is that
>they have a very myopic
>view of America. They
>are fascinated and repelled at
>the same time. Black
>Americans in some way are
>a threat to them.
>
Where does this come from? For a while I've been listening to people spew the ideology that we (Black people in America)are unwanted, disliked, disrespected, etc. by our brothers and sisters that actually live in Africa. My experience has been quite the opposite. So, please tell me where does it come from?

Because if this ideology is unfounded and WRONG, it has served to be hugely & grossly DIVISIVE. People of color are not the minority in this world that the MINORITY (white men who control all of the resources) would have us beleive that we are. If we along with them can be successful in weakening us and having us beleive that there is a distrust of us amongst us then we've been TEMPORARILY defeated. Sound familiar? Can we say slave trade and "breaking" negroes?

Live from the Shoe Sto'
NuShooz
I,I, I Can't Wait!

Live from the Shoe Sto, the Mall and NOW the courtroom


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U've waited long enuff!

  

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Xala

Fri Jun-09-00 05:06 AM

  
21. "RE: African vs./or African American"
In response to Reply # 17


          

Truthfully NuShooz, the African American experience, with regards to how it is perceived in Africa, for all intent purposes is non - existent ( kinda like Americans saying ' I did not know there were Black people in London)

This divide and I am sure you will agree is multifactorial; simply Africa itself is too vast and too complex. History, in particular has been taught haphazardly; in part due to the 'denial philosophy,' but also in an insane quest to catch up with the very cultures that they despise.

In fact African history took a back seat; for example in West Africa; what replaced this was references to England, via Shakespeare or Owell for example. And if you were unfortunate to fall under the French territory you were equally pumped with the French rhetoric. (Do not get me wrong both history and literature has its important place regardless of what sphere they come from) What is disheartening is the denial of one's own history: that is what I meant by a serious hangover.

Funny enough after all has been said and done the reality is that most Africans today in Africa are only exposed to American culture (Black) via television - and we all know how much of a head - fuck television can be.


  

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nushooz
Member since Nov 05th 2002
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Fri Jun-09-00 06:03 AM

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26. "True dat - on the TV thing"
In response to Reply # 21


          

but what do you think of the divisiveness of us- American Blacks and Africans? And maybe I under-read your response in my haste to reply (Not that this EVER happens on the boards )
Sometimes I'm a little ssssloooowww

Live
Nu
I,I, I Can't Wait!

Live from the Shoe Sto, the Mall and NOW the courtroom


I, I, I Can't Wait?
U've waited long enuff!

  

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nappiness
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42. "EACH ONE TEACH ONE"
In response to Reply # 26


          

the African, Black american thing is fucked. but there are many underlining reasons.
1. for example when africans come here as students in univerisities they are told to stay away and stay clear of us b/c we are bad news and we are lazy welfare fuckers.
2. we as Blk. americans want to be so far removed from Africans b/c we think many of them are ugly. their distinctive broad noses, big lips, etc.....we don't want to identify with that.also, it's like in looking at them we are staring ourselves in the face.
3. we are ignorant of each others history so many Black americans still thinks of the bush, tarzan, and nomads when thinking of Africa. and many Africans think we are ungrateful for the thigns that happened in the 60's and 70's and all we thugs, crackheads, and welfare queens.
4. COLONIZATION, THIS IS THE NUMBER ONE REASON. THINK ABOUT IT IF ALL OF THE AFRICAN DIASPORA WOULD UNITE WE WOULD BE THE BADDEST MOFOS ON THIS PLANET. WHITE FOLKS HAVE MASTERED WILLIE LYNCH'S DIVIDE AND CONQUER TACTIC AND IT HAS WORKED.
5. individually start to converse with Africans and Africans reciprocate. Dialogue is important.
Nappiness is next to Godliness!!!
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Ms. Nappiness

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odu
Member since Jun 02nd 2002
33 posts
Fri Jun-09-00 06:13 AM

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28. "RE: African vs./or African American"
In response to Reply # 21


          

>Truthfully NuShooz, the African American experience,
>with regards to how it
>is perceived in Africa, for
>all intent purposes is non
>- existent ( kinda like
>Americans saying ' I did
>not know there were Black
>people in London)

Another untruth. SOME Africans may not be sensitive to the situation in the diaspora, but that is by no means a complete picture. Where are you from?

>This divide and I am sure
>you will agree is multifactorial;
>simply Africa itself is too
>vast and too complex.
>History, in particular has been
>taught haphazardly; in part due
>to the 'denial philosophy,' but
>also in an insane quest
>to catch up with the
>very cultures that they despise.

Just like colonized people everywhere. Again, this does not describe everybody.
>
> In fact African history took
>a back seat; for example
>in West Africa; what replaced
>this was references to England,
>via Shakespeare or Owell for
>example. And if you
>were unfortunate to fall under
>the French territory you were
>equally pumped with the French
>rhetoric. (Do not get me
>wrong both history and literature
>has its important place regardless
>of what sphere they come
>from) What is disheartening
>is the denial of one's
>own history: that is what
>I meant by a serious
>hangover.

Actually, it was much worse in the Francophone territories. And it was never a complete "blackout" of local history. Annual religious, social, coronation and fertility festivals went on largely undisturbed. You can still see them to this day.

>Funny enough after all has been
>said and done the reality
>is that most Africans today
>in Africa are only exposed
>to American culture (Black) via
>television - and we all
>know how much of a
>head - fuck television can
>be.

No doubt. There's not exactly freedom of travel from most West African countries to the US or the UK. People who are coming from the continent are usually trying to hustle a buck; they're not interested in learning about YOUR pain and suffering when they've got their own immediate troubles. But there's enough cross-cultural communication that heads in Senegal sport Tupac t-shirts and rap in Wolof to traditional beats. The situation ain't that bleak, bruh.

  

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Xala

Mon Jun-12-00 01:33 AM

  
44. "RE: African vs./or African American"
In response to Reply # 28


          

Odu,

It would be highly irresponsible of me to suggest that the viewpoint put forward earlier on was in some way an accurate reflection of the thinking in Africa. As we write history itself has moved on.

I doubt if the Black Diaspora dwell on the sensitivity issue; and I very much doubt that droves of Black people around the world acupuncture themselves every morning simply because Africa appears to be downing gallons of insensitivity pills.

What Africa needs too quickly be aware of is that these are all it's children; it is high time Africa starts capitalizing on that fact. There is no reason why a symbiotic relationship cannot work.

The argument about missing gaps in history is well documented; indeed human history is one huge leaking vessel. You cannot underestimate the great robbery done by Europe and affiliates when colonization was firmly in place. Oral history, which still remains intact, only does so out of the sheer stubbornness of a people. But you cannot tell me that the very nature and structure of colonization is of no more significance.

It is important to understand that there are huge portions or chunks of data irrevocably deleted. Think, how would Africa have developed if for example the tentacles of Christianity or Islam had not reached the continent; take a look at the languages in West Africa and tell me how many will survive the next century; on the subject of languages how many Nigerians for example can competently read and write the Yoruba language. Why was it so important to instill into a culture foreign languages; was it not a way of robbing out an existing history. I wonder what the French are panicking for as we enter a new millennium and fears of the French language loosing ground abound?

Of course as we dwell on the sociological ramifications of a culture fractured in time and space; it is as you have indicated important to know that real people have real problems. Making money plus simply surviving is of course paramount; but we cannot all be sustained by money – you must know the American cliché ‘ if you are rich you must also be unhappy.’ Remember Biggie’s retort on the subject.

Finally a better example of cross communication would be the work ‘Spearhead’ is doing or ‘Louis Armstrong’ did. Somehow knowing that Tupac has permeated the Senegalese culture (pop) is indeed for all intent purposes very bleak indeed.

Xala.






  

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odu
Member since Jun 02nd 2002
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Mon Jun-12-00 01:39 PM

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45. "RE: African vs./or African American"
In response to Reply # 44


          


>I doubt if the Black Diaspora
>dwell on the sensitivity issue;
>and I very much doubt
>that droves of Black people
>around the world acupuncture themselves
>every morning simply because Africa
>appears to be downing gallons
>of insensitivity pills.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

>
>What Africa needs too quickly be
>aware of is that these
>are all it's children; it
>is high time Africa starts
>capitalizing on that fact.
>There is no reason why
>a symbiotic relationship cannot work.

Can you elaborate? I'd say the dual-citizenship plans (Ghana) and elaborate tourism industry (Senegal) are examples of Africa "capitalizing" on our mutual connections. Remember, we're talking about developing economies with huge foreign debts (Nigeria is a leader with $30 billion owed).

>The argument about missing gaps in
>history is well documented; indeed
>human history is one huge
>leaking vessel. You cannot
>underestimate the great robbery done
>by Europe and affiliates when
>colonization was firmly in place.
> Oral history, which still
>remains intact, only does so
>out of the sheer stubbornness
>of a people.

Actually, oral history is the preferred medium of record in sub-Saharan Africa. Literate societies still passed on historically notable information by means of a court singer (the griot in Senegambia; the oriki singer in Yoruba-speaking nations).

But you
>cannot tell me that the
>very nature and structure of
>colonization is of no more
>significance.

Okay. I promise I won't tell you that. In fact, I completely agree.

>It is important to understand that
>there are huge portions or
>chunks of data irrevocably deleted.
> Think, how would Africa
>have developed if for example
>the tentacles of Christianity or
>Islam had not reached the
>continent; take a look at
>the languages in West Africa
>and tell me how many
>will survive the next century;
>on the subject of languages
>how many Nigerians for example
>can competently read and write
>the Yoruba language.

Why should they read and write what is essentially a spoken tongue? Written Yoruba is an invention of the missionaries. Yoruba is an oral language that is more widely-spread than it has ever been at any other point in its history. Similiarly, the larger language groups (Hausa, Nupe, Asante, Ibo, Wolof etc) face no particular threat of elimination. Kids go home and speak to their parents in their native tongue, no matter what they learn in school. There are around 200 languages (and many more dialects) spoken in Nigeria alone. Are they all going to survive in pristine form? It's impossible. Smaller language groups may become obselete, but that's the way of all things. It's not particular to Africa. T

Why was
>it so important to instill
>into a culture foreign languages;
>was it not a way
>of robbing out an existing
>history. I wonder what
>the French are panicking for
>as we enter a new
>millennium and fears of the
>French language loosing ground abound?

I don't know why myself. Those French-speaking former colonies are unlikely to give it up anytime soon, if only for convenience.
>
>Of course as we dwell on
>the sociological ramifications of a
>culture fractured in time and
>space; it is as you
>have indicated important to know
>that real people have real
>problems. Making money plus
>simply surviving is of course
>paramount; but we cannot all
>be sustained by money –
>you must know the American
>cliché ‘ if you are
>rich you must also be
>unhappy.’ Remember Biggie’s retort
>on the subject.
>
>Finally a better example of cross
>communication would be the work
>‘Spearhead’ is doing or ‘Louis
>Armstrong’ did. Somehow knowing
>that Tupac has permeated the
>Senegalese culture (pop) is
>indeed for all intent purposes
>very bleak indeed.

I disagree. Considering Tupac's pedigree and the subject of his more serious songs, I think he ranked in the top tier of politically sound MCs. Read a couple of his last interviews about his plans for forming a political party, or his efforts on behalf of jailed Black Panthers, who were friends of his family. Anyway, he is merely an example; Bob Marley is probably even more popular and look how long he's been dead. The point is that people are making Pan-African connections and they are realizing that our problems and solutions are forever entwined.

Bob Marley was dismissed as too rough and untutored by the Jamaican elite. It was his overwhelming popularity with the people that brought him any kind of international notice.

  

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Xala

Tue Jun-13-00 10:40 PM

  
50. "RE: African vs./or African American"
In response to Reply # 45


          

On the subject of Nigeria; let's face it the debt incurred can be regarded as 'self inflicted.'

With regards to Bob Marley I think the occluded Jamaican elite has been well documented, the question is how can it be overhauled?
xala.


  

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odu
Member since Jun 02nd 2002
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Wed Jun-14-00 12:21 PM

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54. "RE: African vs./or African American"
In response to Reply # 50


          

>On the subject of Nigeria; let's
>face it the debt incurred
>can be regarded as 'self
>inflicted.'

Yes and no. The old saying goes, "you get the government you deserve." But the truth is that Western Europe has, overtly and covertly, supported non-democratic military dictatorships for most of Nigeria's history as a sovereign nation (40 years). The last military dictator, Sani Abacha, has an estimated personal fortune of around $30 billion, so if you want to know where the money went, the answer is obvious. This doesn't account for the personal fortune of his predecessor, Ibrahim Babangida, who probably is even wealthier.

>With regards to Bob Marley I
>think the occluded Jamaican elite
>has been well documented, the
>question is how can it
>be overhauled?
>xala.

I don't know, and I'm not one to give sweeping answers. I don't believe in revolution and I don't think there is ever going to be an overarching social wave that will wash away the evil of white supremacy in this world. All we can do (IMHO) is build our separate strength as an international Pan-Africans, both as individuals and as members of affinity groups who share our interests.

  

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odu
Member since Jun 02nd 2002
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Wed Jun-14-00 01:12 PM

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56. "RE: African vs./or African American"
In response to Reply # 54


          

"as international Pan Africans"

I don't what's up with me and typos lately.

  

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mke
Member since Oct 20th 2002
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Sat Jun-10-00 06:51 AM

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41. "RE: African vs./or African American"
In response to Reply # 21


          

And if you
>were unfortunate to fall under
>the French territory you were
>equally pumped with the French
>rhetoric.

Concrete example: Schoolkids were taught to repeat by heart phrases of the type "Our ancestors the Gauls" (Gauls being a people living in the Roman era cf. Asterix) just like the schoolkids in France. Luckily, no-one does that today (I hope).

AIM: mke1978

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In English:
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wbgirl
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18. "all of this reminds me..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

of something my father used to say:

"I don't care WHAT ya call me...just don't call me late to dinner!"

yeah, it's corny as hell, but i still laugh at it. and then there's "I'm a Naive American!" (c) Eric Cartman.

personally, i'll answer to Black, AfricanAmerican (hyphen or no), and sometimes, even "cullud", depending on my mood.

just sayin'..

~~wbg~~

Chicago 2001...'nuff said!

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nahymsa
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Fri Jun-09-00 01:23 PM

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31. "If they are white & living in Africa"
In response to Reply # 0


          

They are no more "African" than my black ass is Japanese because I live in Japan.


  

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BooDaah
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34. "RE: If they are white & living in Africa"
In response to Reply # 31


          

If you were Black and born in Japan you would be Japanese by nationality, if not (necessarily)in culture. That's the thing, nationality vs. culture. This is gonna create waves but there are PLENTY of "Black"-skindded folk I know who are "white" in their culture.
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odu
Member since Jun 02nd 2002
33 posts
Fri Jun-09-00 03:14 PM

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37. "I hear you, but..."
In response to Reply # 34


          

Japan is the wrong country to use as an example, bruh.

Besides, there has been virtually no cultural integration of white and Black in Africa. Whites who settled on the continent were pretty stringent about that whole apartheid thing, therefore their culture is still largely Dutch/German/British wherever you find them. They have largely made no effort to become a part of their new homes; they wanted to subjugate their former colonies and re-shape their homelands on African soil.

I don't think you can call them African, and I doubt if they would if they were being honest, either. But again, my first rule is self-determination. Call yourself what you will. Just know thyself.

  

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Quinn

Fri Jun-09-00 03:25 PM

  
38. "my experience"
In response to Reply # 37


          

that "no integration" thing is really gonna depend on where you are. I was born in Egypt, and lived around all shades of white and black, and no one noticed the difference. Some of my relatives are actually white because of some mixing that happaned, but we're all Egyptian through and through. I'm only saying this because having lived the earliest years of my life in a part of Africa, your "virtualy no integration" comment sounds very harsh when compared to my experience, which I know was a fairly typical Egyptian one.

Backhanded, pimpslapped backwards and left stranded - Kurupt

  

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odu
Member since Jun 02nd 2002
33 posts
Fri Jun-09-00 03:33 PM

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39. "RE: my experience"
In response to Reply # 38


          

Actually, I was referring to South Africa ("Dutch/German/British" and "apartheid" etc.), but in my opinion North Africa counts too. The 'racial' strife in the Sudan and Mauretania come immediately to mind, though I don't have any information on Egypt at hand. So, while I don't discount your individual experience at all, it runs counter to what I know of Black/white contact on the continent.

  

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Xala

Sun Jun-11-00 10:22 PM

  
43. "RE: If they are white & living in Africa"
In response to Reply # 31


          

Funny you should mention Japan ;I wonder, maybe we can get a statement(from a government official) as to why second and third generation Koreans leaving in Japan are still been treated like second class citizens?

  

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JustLisa
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46. "Call my view "limited""
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

But I simply prefer "Black". I can't trace my lineage back to Uncle Umbobafe coming over from Ghana or Kenya during the slave trade or any other time. "We" are more "American" then many of these so-called pre and post Ellis Island emigres. I've heard every argument on this and I remained on unswayed. That's all I'll say on that subject.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage ~ ANAIS NIN

  

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odu
Member since Jun 02nd 2002
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Tue Jun-13-00 07:37 AM

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47. "RE: Call my view"
In response to Reply # 46


          

You're not only limited in your view, your ignorance is fucking stupefying. I'm fairly sure Uncle whateveryoucalledhim would disown you.

  

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JustLisa
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48. "Way to win support. . ."
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

>You're not only limited in your
>view, your ignorance is fucking
>stupefying. I'm fairly sure Uncle
>whateveryoucalledhim would disown you.


While I appreciate your fervence, you haven't given me one singular reason why my view is wrong.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage ~ ANAIS NIN

  

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earthboy

Tue Jun-13-00 01:03 PM

  
49. "why african over african american"
In response to Reply # 0


          

This topic Has been an issue at my school for all four years that I attended. I personally bellieve that we should call ourselves African for many resaons My first resaon is the old willie lynch divide and conquer method if we see ourselves as african american afro brazilian Carribean and etc we will never gather the masses of african people diplaced across the globe to become a powerhouse in the world. we will be considered an minority forever. second to me the name american is a nationality not a race or ethnic group. My spirit is an African one while my nationalty is american
even in the countries of Africa they should consider themselves African before nigerian namibian or whatever. these countries where not made in our best interest. how would african namibian sound third every ethnic group in america has a land base to claim to gather power and pride. Africa is the only logic place to do so. thank for reading my long passege
hotep

  

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dr_no

Wed Jun-14-00 03:48 AM

  
51. "concept"
In response to Reply # 49


          

there has to be a starting point.i think we believe that to be afrika.where we all ended up does not deny where we began.

you have parents,uncles,brothers,sisters,cousins, who all share the same blood and name.if one of these people leaves and starts a family on the other side of the world,arent they still apart of that original family.
we are an extension of africa.black americans do have their/our own cultural that is a mix of africa and america.
african american is just a label to stereotype.
imagine i fill out an appication and i state that i'm african.the employer will probably definitely think i'm from senegal or somethin.and whatever images he associates with africa,he will have in his mind.
if i state i'm african american,then he knows i'm from america and AGAIN,he'll associate what he knows about black folks to his preconceived opinions.

a lost tribe who have adapted

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JustLisa
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52. "good points!"
In response to Reply # 51


  

          

see odu, that wasn't hard was it?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage ~ ANAIS NIN

  

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odu
Member since Jun 02nd 2002
33 posts
Wed Jun-14-00 12:13 PM

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53. "RE: good points!"
In response to Reply # 52


          

Your post was insulting enough for me to completely ignore you. You have a long way to go before this debate is even relevant to you (namely--you need to check your obviously stereotypical view of Africans and African names). I don't know where you got the idea that I have the slightest bit of interest in converting you. 'm not really interested in being your teacher; I'm trying to reach out to like-minded brothers and sisters that I may disagree with, but whom I still respect. Using the evidence of your post, I doubt that you're some one I want to bother with. Now, if you had come up with some serious reasons to justify your preference of "Black" over "African" or "African American", like BooDah, K-Love and several others did, we'd be talking.

  

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Xala

Wed Jun-14-00 11:27 PM

  
58. "RE: good points!"
In response to Reply # 52


          

Actually people check out a book called " ways of seeing"
by John Berger. A bit old but it has allot of very interesting things to say.

xala.

  

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Jiggly_Puff

Wed Jun-14-00 07:54 PM

  
57. "race matters"
In response to Reply # 0


          

someone may already have stated this...but these "titles" do nothing but confuse and separate...what is a Black non-Hispanic or Hispanic non-white? These titles at most only identify us by nationality or culture...but not by ethnicity...there is a HUGE difference...while i was in high school this Egyptian cat, who never identified himself as being Black, said that he was African-American on all his college applications so he could get money...technically he is African-American...he was born in Egypt, but now lives in the US...but he is not black...see how the name game works now? it's all a game...

  

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