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Subject: "It's time for another war. It's been too long (RE: Ukraine)" Previous topic | Next topic
PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
15686 posts
Fri Jan-21-22 11:58 AM

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"It's time for another war. It's been too long (RE: Ukraine)"


          

The familiar sound of war drums are beating again. Rare bipartisanship.

What's the deal here? Why would Russia invade Ukraine? And why should the US get involved?

They claim it is because Ukraine wants to join NATO. But it seems like NATO members do not really want to add Ukraine into the fold. That should it it, right? No conflict.

Can anyone explain what's going on? And do you think the US should intervene?

_______________________________________

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
Ultimately, it's more about China and Taiwan
Jan 21st 2022
1
What does China want to do?
Jan 21st 2022
4
      Ultimately:
Jan 21st 2022
5
I don't have answer to any of this, but...
Jan 21st 2022
2
It's time for another war. It's been too long (RE: Ukraine)
Jan 21st 2022
3
i came across this analysis a few weeks ago
Jan 21st 2022
6
Ukraine has every right to their sovereignty
Jan 21st 2022
7
Sorry to up this,but just wanna rant abt this war that nobody wants smh
Feb 18th 2022
8
thank you for this, seriously.
Feb 18th 2022
9
      np
Feb 18th 2022
11
      x2
Feb 18th 2022
12
AND let me rant abt Putin right quick, bc I believe this is all symptoms...
Feb 18th 2022
10
I'm at a loss on what should be done
Feb 18th 2022
13
The Donbas region != all of Ukraine tho
Feb 20th 2022
26
      much appreciate this
Feb 21st 2022
41
all of this is 100% correct. Also, y'all should be listening to Gaslit N...
Feb 23rd 2022
81
      Ah I remember you recommending Gaslit before
Feb 28th 2022
262
it's terrifying how reminiscent this is of early-Iraq
Feb 18th 2022
14
LOL I thought basically exactly this just yesterday.
Feb 18th 2022
15
starting that war before the midterms.. smh
Feb 18th 2022
16
      Maybe he doesn't fully expect to make it that far lol.
Feb 18th 2022
17
      did biden move 190k troops to the ukraine border?
Feb 18th 2022
21
      btw putin literally started a war with ukraine before 2014 midterms.
Feb 18th 2022
23
I don’t find this reminiscent of early-Iraq at all
Feb 18th 2022
18
190k troops now.
Feb 18th 2022
19
this is nothing like iraq.
Feb 18th 2022
20
President of Ukraine was WRONG
Feb 24th 2022
118
its weird that anyone blames anyone other than putin.
Feb 18th 2022
22
I agree that this is all on Putin and him trying to put the old Soviet
Feb 18th 2022
24
Exactly. I like how the admin is publicizing the intelligence reports to...
Feb 19th 2022
25
Obviously the core problem is Putin, but how can you or anyone rate
Feb 20th 2022
27
huh? who rated anything as 'effective putin management'?
Feb 20th 2022
29
ALSO, the NATO and Donbas/DPR/LPR issues aren't propaganda
Feb 20th 2022
28
      Trying to wait and hope Putin dies sooner than later is ridiculous
Feb 20th 2022
30
      yeah this is really weird
Feb 20th 2022
32
      It sounds unorthodox, but I'd prefer it to nuclear war/WW3
Feb 28th 2022
260
      this pro-putin slant of yours is weird. ukraine is a sovereign nation.
Feb 20th 2022
31
           I'm stunned you could read what I wrote and even conclude that.
Feb 28th 2022
259
whats the basis for pro-russia sentiment by some on the left today?
Feb 20th 2022
33
Links/proof?
Feb 20th 2022
34
not the mainstream left.
Feb 20th 2022
35
you can read this thread and the replies to get a quick sense
Feb 21st 2022
39
whats the basis for you worrying more about what the left
Feb 20th 2022
37
fam you gotta stop following me around with these unhinged replies.
Feb 21st 2022
38
lmao.. reeq definitely on Biden’s payroll
Feb 21st 2022
43
^ say you cant debate me on the facts
Feb 21st 2022
50
Leftist media carrying Russian disinformation is a huge problem
Feb 21st 2022
45
these same folks wanna scrap nato, multilateral trade agreements, etc.
Feb 21st 2022
48
Clearly he is a plant
Feb 28th 2022
284
You see it.
Mar 01st 2022
310
I’ve seen tons of alt right and GOP folks showing Putin sympathy
Feb 21st 2022
42
lol
Feb 24th 2022
158
biden the warmonger agrees to summit with dove putin.
Feb 20th 2022
36
American imperialist to meet with hero of Soviet Socialist Republic
Feb 21st 2022
40
No.
Feb 21st 2022
44
Dawg, the history of Europe is non-stop war UP until about 75 years
Feb 22nd 2022
75
just call them nazis like you want to
Feb 22nd 2022
76
Shout out to Bernie: https://twitter.com/berniesanders/status/1495175761...
Feb 21st 2022
46
he must be on bidens payroll.
Feb 21st 2022
47
putin calls 'live' televised security meeting on ukraine.
Feb 21st 2022
49
read this thread covering putins speech.
Feb 21st 2022
51
White men have too much free time and not enough imagination
Feb 21st 2022
52
russia has deployed enough forces for larger invasion (not just donbas).
Feb 21st 2022
53
more common sense:
Feb 21st 2022
63
russian stock futures collapse over 20% in one day.
Feb 21st 2022
54
putin orders 'peacekeeping' troops into ukraine.
Feb 21st 2022
55
I can’t believe people are still both siding this and trying to blame ...
Feb 21st 2022
56
      they accuse people of being paid by democrats for having common sense.
Feb 21st 2022
57
      The right is actively rooting for Putin because “own the libs”
Feb 21st 2022
58
           the horseshoe is real.
Feb 21st 2022
61
      I’ve yet to hear logical reasoning as to why this would be Biden’s f...
Feb 21st 2022
59
      lol @ this tweet
Feb 21st 2022
60
      I think Biden and his admin has been smart to publicize all the intel
Feb 21st 2022
64
           yup salute to whoever made that call at the nsc.
Feb 21st 2022
70
      corporations! military industrial complex!
Feb 21st 2022
65
           To distract from the Durham report!
Feb 21st 2022
67
                dude in here said biden was starting a war before the midterms lmaooo.
Feb 21st 2022
68
      Fast Food News Diets
Feb 21st 2022
69
its remarkable how fast putin shitted on his defenders/apologists.
Feb 21st 2022
62
Putin is in for a penny, in for a pound now
Feb 21st 2022
66
looks like he's moved on to .. supporting the trucker convoy
Feb 22nd 2022
77
      the timing of the hysterics over Trudeau
Feb 23rd 2022
78
           Yeah i like him too
Feb 23rd 2022
79
                a lot of people think Russia has dirt on him
Feb 23rd 2022
82
russian foreign minister says ukraine has no right to sovereignty.
Feb 22nd 2022
71
germany halts nord stream 2 gas pipeline from russia
Feb 22nd 2022
72
uk sanctions 5 russian banks and 3 oligarchs.
Feb 22nd 2022
73
Individual sanctions are a potent weapon: https://www.reddit.com/r/MURIC...
Feb 23rd 2022
80
Can't take anyone serious who starts with, "Biden polls sagging, time fo...
Feb 22nd 2022
74
look at this russian tv video of 'ukrainian army shelling journalists'.
Feb 23rd 2022
83
nbc news analyst claims russia intends to invade entire ukraine
Feb 23rd 2022
84
i think ukrainian president zelenskyy fucked up big here.
Feb 23rd 2022
85
And now Putin isn’t taking his calls
Feb 23rd 2022
86
' russia has nearly 100% of the forces needed for a full-scale invasion'
Feb 23rd 2022
87
I feel terrible for the Ukrainian people
Feb 23rd 2022
88
I'm waiting for the Republican reaction when Putin goes after Poland
Feb 23rd 2022
89
I would think the Balkan nations would be next before Poland
Feb 23rd 2022
90
its begun.
Feb 23rd 2022
91
russia already bombing outside the areas they deemed 'independent'.
Feb 23rd 2022
92
      explosions in capital city kyiv (during live cnn broadcast).
Feb 23rd 2022
93
           It’s going down now
Feb 23rd 2022
94
           biden gave us the straight truth about putins intentions from the jump.
Feb 23rd 2022
96
                Biden did a good job telling us the truth and calling Putin
Feb 23rd 2022
98
                yeah thats the saddest part
Feb 23rd 2022
99
                This may be true but why does it matter?
Feb 24th 2022
142
                     IMO, it matters because those articles and tweets helps shape
Feb 24th 2022
144
                          But why does that matter to the POTUS?
Feb 24th 2022
149
           some of these bombing videos are crazy.
Feb 23rd 2022
95
biden statement on russia bombing ukraine.
Feb 23rd 2022
97
theres no rally around the flag effect for dem presidents.
Feb 23rd 2022
100
its wild how little effort putin put into building a pretext for war.
Feb 23rd 2022
101
current mood:
Feb 23rd 2022
102
also current mood:
Feb 23rd 2022
103
      I am right there with you
Feb 23rd 2022
104
           we are a nation of idiots.
Feb 23rd 2022
105
yall girl is yallgirling.
Feb 23rd 2022
106
remember when hillary called tulsi a russian asset?
Feb 23rd 2022
107
      Laura Ingraham might be worse, you see some of the tweets
Feb 24th 2022
108
           that network needs to be burned down.
Feb 24th 2022
109
i wonder how republicans will react to white ukrainian refugees.
Feb 24th 2022
110
whiteness always more important than white people
Feb 24th 2022
111
Jesus Christ, video from Kharkiv looks like the start of Desert Storm
Feb 24th 2022
112
this dickhead is pretty much wrong about everything nowadays.
Feb 24th 2022
113
That's Freezing Cold Take level of wrong.
Feb 24th 2022
117
russian stock market fell 45% until trading was stopped.
Feb 24th 2022
114
And why couldn't we agree to not let Ukraine into NATO again?
Feb 24th 2022
115
Because a main tenant of NATO is free countries being able to join.
Feb 24th 2022
116
Yeah I do not find this persuasive at all.
Feb 24th 2022
121
      I will admit that NATO has a branding problem and should redefine
Feb 24th 2022
125
           ^^^^^^^
Feb 24th 2022
145
           the only problem with rebranding as 'dato' is
Feb 24th 2022
147
                Yeah, no kidding, also explain why Hungary and Poland are in the EU
Feb 24th 2022
150
                     But it's not about democracy or free markets.
Feb 24th 2022
156
                          I’m not talking about fighting to “liberate” a country and install...
Feb 24th 2022
164
                               Fam, we should not risk Nuclear Holocaust over Kazakhstan
Mar 03rd 2022
366
Post 8 was a good explanation on this. To summarize
Feb 24th 2022
119
      Yeah Kfine nails a lot in this post but who cares what Putin wants.
Feb 24th 2022
123
           I'll defer on people way smarter than me on this stuff...but
Feb 24th 2022
128
           Agreed. I am just saying you can only game it out so far.
Feb 24th 2022
155
           Losing the Donbas region wouldn't be a relief to Ukraine
Feb 24th 2022
129
                But didn't the folks in the Donbas region WANT to join Russia?
Feb 24th 2022
154
                     Who wanted to join Russia? Was a vote held? Was it free and fair?
Feb 24th 2022
165
                     Ok Vladimir lol
Feb 25th 2022
177
                          Mexico would have a more legitimate claim to El Paso than
Feb 25th 2022
179
                          by far.
Mar 10th 2022
461
                          that's basically what set off the Mexican-American war but in reverse
Mar 10th 2022
460
is it wrong that I want someone to snipe Putin
Feb 24th 2022
120
He don't be strolling through the park.
Feb 24th 2022
122
A lot of people will die before he does
Feb 24th 2022
124
A lot more people will die if he is killed externally.
Feb 24th 2022
126
this (and why its a bad idea) was discussed above somewhere.
Feb 24th 2022
137
btw his age and health might also give him a sense of urgency
Feb 24th 2022
138
      Biden and his admin really boxed Putin in on the disinformation
Feb 24th 2022
139
           'fog of unknowability'
Feb 24th 2022
143
That could set off a scary chain of events...
Feb 24th 2022
127
yep.. and so could this invasion.
Feb 24th 2022
131
      Indeed
Feb 24th 2022
135
this Russian guy at my job said
Feb 24th 2022
132
I wish a Chechen would
Feb 24th 2022
140
What do you really know about this situation
Feb 27th 2022
257
      You angling for a guest spot on Tucker Carlson?
Mar 01st 2022
309
           I don't watch the news but I do know the most stable
Mar 03rd 2022
395
Republicans: Biden is weak. Also Republicans: We shouldn't be involved
Feb 24th 2022
130
do they ever try to make sense anymore?
Feb 24th 2022
133
I wish journalist wouldn’t ask these assholes what would they do
Feb 24th 2022
136
random: kanye was planning to meet putin in the summer
Feb 24th 2022
134
anti war protests in st petersburg.
Feb 24th 2022
141
these dudes went straight for the capitol.
Feb 24th 2022
146
Terrified for these other former Soviet Bloc states
Feb 24th 2022
152
This is so fucked up.
Feb 24th 2022
148
sean penn is apparently in ukraine.
Feb 24th 2022
151
Let’s see how long they can stomach urban war/ insurgency
Feb 24th 2022
153
republicans call justin trudeau a tyrant
Feb 24th 2022
157
powerful photo.
Feb 24th 2022
159
right wing social media is an alternate reality.
Feb 24th 2022
160
republicans are running against australia and canada.
Feb 24th 2022
161
russian troops surrendering & claiming they were misled on the mission?
Feb 24th 2022
162
wow more info:
Feb 24th 2022
163
Holy shit this is wild.
Feb 24th 2022
169
This sounds crazy
Feb 25th 2022
172
this pic will do the best job of mobilizing white americans for ukraine.
Feb 24th 2022
166
lulz
Feb 24th 2022
167
this post below it is so silly
Feb 24th 2022
168
I shouldn’t laugh but this is fucking hilarious
Feb 25th 2022
171
Sounds like the Ukrainians are putting up a decent fight
Feb 25th 2022
170
Ukraine is blowing up bridges to the city
Feb 25th 2022
173
I know it always comes up but how much do these reporters get paid?
Feb 25th 2022
174
not enough
Feb 25th 2022
175
      RE: not enough
Feb 25th 2022
176
all males 18-60 banned from leaving the Ukraine.
Feb 25th 2022
178
war isn’t funny of course but this made me laugh when I saw it
Feb 25th 2022
180
Well if we are doing inappropriate things that made us laugh.
Feb 25th 2022
181
Want to see a leader ready to fight til the end? https://www.reddit.com/...
Feb 25th 2022
182
ey are yall up on the story of his path to politics?
Feb 25th 2022
183
Yeah, he was basically a Brewsters Millions type story, just without
Feb 25th 2022
189
I vaguely remember something about this in the Economist
Feb 25th 2022
192
Yeah Putin is using that as an excuse
Feb 25th 2022
184
the largest far right party in ukraine is about 10k people.
Feb 25th 2022
187
That 10k has been busy
Feb 25th 2022
190
Yeah, the Ukrainian “nazi problem” is blown out of proportion
Feb 25th 2022
191
btw everyone should watch this quick vid for context/fact check.
Feb 25th 2022
188
Will I get malware if I click that
Feb 26th 2022
205
Yo, Big Hunger Games vibes.
Feb 25th 2022
185
that new polling hit different.
Feb 25th 2022
186
Yeah, the right seems to be back pedaling now
Feb 25th 2022
193
Make them fucking pay for this
Feb 25th 2022
195
You know the Democrats wont do this...
Feb 26th 2022
202
damn even putin nuthugger ron johnson changed his tune.
Feb 26th 2022
201
these muhfuckas spent the 4th of damn july in russia. i'll never forget ...
Feb 26th 2022
211
Ignorant question… Was Ukraine screwed over
Feb 25th 2022
194
I don't think this is an ignorant question at all
Feb 28th 2022
261
I don’t think it is an ignorant question and I largely agree with kfin...
Feb 28th 2022
298
I'm slowly starting to believe Putin bit off more than he can chew.
Feb 26th 2022
196
people swear putin is some mastermind 3d chess player.
Feb 26th 2022
198
Probably "disappeared" most of the competent people around him.
Feb 26th 2022
200
It seems like Putin thought the Ukrainian military would not fight
Feb 26th 2022
204
I suspect both sides are engaging in massive disinformation...
Feb 26th 2022
213
      I hear you, but it's not the same.
Feb 27th 2022
222
damn this is gangster!
Feb 26th 2022
197
apparently putin was lying to his own people (shocker).
Feb 26th 2022
199
RE: apparently putin was lying to his own people (shocker).
Feb 26th 2022
203
Ghost of Kyiv
Feb 26th 2022
206
Ukraine woman hands sunflower seeds to russian soldiers
Feb 26th 2022
207
Ukraine soldier sacrifices himself to detonate bridge and slow russian t...
Feb 26th 2022
208
Just noting the continued silence of Ed Snowden
Feb 26th 2022
209
the game is up for fast eddie.
Feb 26th 2022
210
      He’ll live out his days as Kim Philby did
Feb 26th 2022
212
Zelensky is already good with the addresses and then someone did this:
Feb 26th 2022
214
They should have used Tupacs Ambitionz az a Ridah
Feb 26th 2022
216
ukrainians def dominating the battlefield in terms of shit talking.
Feb 26th 2022
215
exhibit b:
Feb 26th 2022
219
Lol!
Feb 26th 2022
217
ukraine says 3500 russian soldiers killed. russia says zero.
Feb 26th 2022
218
when you realize the value of the ruble tanks with the russian economy:
Feb 26th 2022
220
They killing her, throwing her own videos,
Mar 01st 2022
312
so republicans are zelenskyy fans now?
Feb 26th 2022
221
Putin just put his nuclear forces on highest alert today.
Feb 27th 2022
223
Why do you continue to think the US/NATO can “talk” Putin off the le...
Feb 27th 2022
224
If you're a warmonger, the concept of diplomacy will never make sense.
Feb 27th 2022
225
      You’re right and that is exactly what Putin is and why he won’t
Feb 27th 2022
228
           They didn't even try man.It shouldn't take a literal hand on the trigger
Feb 27th 2022
229
                They have tried, the Minsk Agreements in 2014 were an attempt
Feb 27th 2022
232
                     Diplomacy is not a one-time thing.
Feb 27th 2022
234
                          So no further response other than that? No kidding diplomacy
Feb 27th 2022
238
                               Oh I have lots that I think about wrt this topic
Feb 27th 2022
239
lets not act like any of this is new or was planned yesterday, lets not....
Feb 27th 2022
226
For sure. And this part especially:
Feb 27th 2022
227
you still conjuring up ways to blame anyone other than putin?
Feb 27th 2022
230
I'm anti-war not pro-Putin you fucking op
Feb 27th 2022
231
      youre going harder than tulsi gabbard right now and im the op?
Feb 27th 2022
233
      Your twisted
Feb 27th 2022
235
You doubted our intelligence
Feb 27th 2022
249
      Not really. More like I doubted the narrative. Putin's megalomania
Feb 27th 2022
251
           the murderous thug is doing murderous thug things
Feb 28th 2022
263
                Ya well, do you. I don't view war like a team sport
Feb 28th 2022
273
i seen some never trump republican say the reason putin acts like this
Feb 27th 2022
236
*PSA: AN ANTI-WAR POSITION IS NOT PRO-PUTIN*
Feb 27th 2022
237
Go ahead and stand off to the side with Snowden right now
Feb 27th 2022
248
You'r be dishonest and obtuse
Feb 28th 2022
258
yeah OKP don't do long-term politics/consequences
Mar 04th 2022
407
i wonder what this dudes mental state is right now.
Feb 27th 2022
240
Dead @ Homie on the right
Feb 27th 2022
242
ukraine agrees to talks with russia at the border with belarus.
Feb 27th 2022
241
It is good they are taking. Would’ve been better if they were in
Feb 27th 2022
243
      thats the fear.
Feb 27th 2022
244
      man.. they better not drink or eat anything at that table
Feb 28th 2022
269
fox news analyst says putins propaganda campaign has failed.
Feb 27th 2022
245
Biden and his admin kept releasing all the intel to flood the zone
Feb 27th 2022
246
eh...I only Jordan stuff (so not going back and forth) but I'll leave th...
Feb 27th 2022
247
China must be nervously watching all of this
Feb 27th 2022
250
I was thinking the same thing WRT to China and Taiwan
Feb 27th 2022
254
credit to fast eddie snowden.
Feb 27th 2022
252
Commendable.
Feb 28th 2022
267
what did he get wrong? i didn't see his other tweets
Feb 28th 2022
299
president zelenskyy doing something dana white and the ufc wont.
Feb 27th 2022
253
Belarus is supposed to start sending troops into Ukraine tomorrow
Feb 27th 2022
255
chechen troops are already deployed and getting lit up.
Feb 27th 2022
256
Lukashenko looks so weak
Feb 28th 2022
264
      He might be the world's littlest biotch
Feb 28th 2022
270
      Khadyrov looks like the neanderthal he is
Feb 28th 2022
274
blacks in the Ukraine? I've seen a sporadic few of us in the crowds...
Feb 28th 2022
265
Not exclusively - but there's a lot of African students
Feb 28th 2022
266
I read about a basketball player who can’t get out
Feb 28th 2022
268
Lots have been reporting racist treatment as they try to flee (swipe)
Feb 28th 2022
271
      yeah I just saw a video posted on social media where they were blocking....
Feb 28th 2022
272
      RE: yeah I just saw a video posted on social media where they were block...
Feb 28th 2022
275
      I don't think it has much to do with the Ukraine gov. Moreso racism
Feb 28th 2022
276
      another reason I've never been big on going to Europe
Feb 28th 2022
279
      Thank you!
Feb 28th 2022
277
      They say the Dems would be right wing in these countries too
Feb 28th 2022
302
      Y'all Black people need to stop complaining about racism.
Feb 28th 2022
285
I’ll be that guy
Feb 28th 2022
278
The same thing happened during the Russo-Georgian war in 2008 n/m
Feb 28th 2022
289
Tried to say they have a Nazi problem
Feb 28th 2022
280
Only Nazi’s are racist?
Feb 28th 2022
281
No
Feb 28th 2022
286
I said the same thing and I was criticized and my post
Feb 28th 2022
283
Deleted? damn
Feb 28th 2022
288
interesting
Feb 28th 2022
292
fwiw we discussed this in here. prolly why your post was deleted.
Feb 28th 2022
305
      ^^^THIS^^^
Mar 01st 2022
Well let’s home Vladimir Putin can help them with this problem
Mar 01st 2022
314
      Nope not good enough
Mar 01st 2022
315
           I see. Let’s hope Vlad roots out other countries too then
Mar 01st 2022
323
                Yeah like Poland and Romania
Mar 01st 2022
347
damn man these texts from a russian soldier to his mother.
Feb 28th 2022
282
Western Hypocrisy and Racism at its finest
Feb 28th 2022
287
People gonna dance around
Feb 28th 2022
290
Russian media is calling the Ukraine Nazi’s
Feb 28th 2022
291
wow
Feb 28th 2022
293
I'm actually (partially) agreeing with allstah
Feb 28th 2022
295
They will never address this, just like COVID lies
Feb 28th 2022
296
Half of the shit Reeq has posted if fake
Feb 28th 2022
297
ehh, I posted the Ghost if Kyiv and said it may be an urban legend
Feb 28th 2022
300
get my dick out your mouth. i didnt post any of this.
Feb 28th 2022
301
I'd happily discuss it.
Feb 28th 2022
303
Bumrushing the Internet worked very well actually
Feb 28th 2022
304
Was literally thinking, why is the Right News Outlet obsessed with
Feb 28th 2022
308
Americans, by and large, have zero historical awareness
Mar 01st 2022
311
^^Proof OKP doesn't ban fake accounts
Mar 01st 2022
313
Im not about any peoples death (cept 45) but this in my face bugs me
Feb 28th 2022
307
reddit video of Russian shelling civilian area in Kharviv
Feb 28th 2022
294
War crimes
Feb 28th 2022
306
So many brave Russians protesting. Not swallowing Kremlin talking point...
Mar 01st 2022
316
So what is NATO/US strategy?
Mar 01st 2022
317
Military aid, sanctions, isolate Russia
Mar 01st 2022
318
Yes. And they're right. Even if it's hard to watch.
Mar 01st 2022
319
For those wanting to know more about the treatment of Black/brown refuge...
Mar 01st 2022
320
Some analysis on the apparent 180 regarding refugees:
Mar 01st 2022
321
fuck them peoples
Mar 01st 2022
322
not surprised
Mar 01st 2022
324
      I'm not sure I'm following you..
Mar 01st 2022
325
           I believe he is referring to the anti-Muslim and anti-hijab laws
Mar 01st 2022
326
           Europe has not handled the increasing migration very well over the last ...
Mar 01st 2022
327
                Oh yeah I'm aware of that, I live here, lol. Should've mentioned it.
Mar 01st 2022
328
                     Yeah, them babushkas and Ukraine/Russian orthodox women
Mar 01st 2022
331
                          Side note: my Dutch grandmother wore a headscarf to church!
Mar 01st 2022
334
There is no replacement for Russia’s gas or oil.
Mar 01st 2022
329
Damn yall cats really don't know what the fuzz yall are talking about.
Mar 01st 2022
330
You really don’t know your history.
Mar 01st 2022
336
      And do you know why all the wars you mentioned were PROXY wars.
Mar 01st 2022
339
           So NATO expanding eastward and setting up
Mar 01st 2022
342
                If the Soviet Union “won” the Cold War and US/NATO collapsed
Mar 01st 2022
343
                     Right so there are zero good guys.
Mar 01st 2022
344
                          Did NATO/US go into Ukraine?
Mar 01st 2022
345
So the US/NATO waited 30 years after the fall of the Soviet Union
Mar 01st 2022
332
This would be some galaxy brain strategy from NATO/USA/EU.
Mar 01st 2022
333
No 9. 3 times over. I will tell you what's interesting to me.
Mar 01st 2022
335
      Like.. Putin literally told everyone why he's doing this..
Mar 01st 2022
338
block whoever sent you the Youtube video
Mar 01st 2022
337
wow this is big. thanks for spreading the word.
Mar 01st 2022
340
if you fold a 20 dollar bill..
Mar 01st 2022
341
lmao.. I’m convinced Allstah is an alias
Mar 02nd 2022
349
спасибо товарищ
Mar 01st 2022
346
LMAO!
Mar 02nd 2022
348
Biden is tied up financially in Russia as well
Mar 03rd 2022
396
Is Putin and his advisors still using Stalin’s playbook
Mar 02nd 2022
350
russia releases its 'official' death toll.
Mar 02nd 2022
351
Ukraine soldiers feeling psychological effects of killing so many Russia...
Mar 02nd 2022
352
I read that the US estimated it was about 1,500 dead Russian soldiers
Mar 02nd 2022
353
      nbcnews is saying 'western officials' echo the ukrainian number.
Mar 02nd 2022
354
      given the number of soldiers coming into the Ukraine
Mar 02nd 2022
355
best case scenario (for world) is russia bogged down in a long war
Mar 02nd 2022
356
russian foreign minister saying u.s. baited russia into a long war lol.
Mar 02nd 2022
357
Best case scenario to me is NATO gets involved in the talks.
Mar 02nd 2022
359
      I think this is where they will end up. My question could we have gotten...
Mar 02nd 2022
360
      the big problem is...russia is already violating 2 existing agreements
Mar 02nd 2022
363
russian stock market basically completely destroyed.
Mar 02nd 2022
358
How could $572 billion be a real number
Mar 02nd 2022
361
      i read that tweet wrong. those are london stocks for russian companies.
Mar 02nd 2022
362
Interesting lecture that explains Russia attack
Mar 03rd 2022
364
Mearsheimer!
Mar 03rd 2022
365
I guess that's what he is getting at with his 21st vs 19th century think...
Mar 03rd 2022
367
      my guess is that
Mar 03rd 2022
371
      One theory from James Meek (London Review of Books) is that Putin got
Mar 03rd 2022
376
      Can you elaborate on this
Mar 03rd 2022
379
           Azerbaijan conquered a Russian 'client state' using Russian and Turkish
Mar 04th 2022
399
      A more recent video (link)
Mar 04th 2022
398
the fact that American media COMPLETELY omits
Mar 04th 2022
408
Interesting takedown of that lecture:
Mar 05th 2022
411
      yeah...
Mar 05th 2022
415
      vaush. goddamnit.
Mar 08th 2022
456
was there this much "compassion" in the media for Haitians?
Mar 03rd 2022
368
No
Mar 03rd 2022
369
Autocratic regime doing autocratic regime things: https://twitter.com/al...
Mar 03rd 2022
370
Martial law is likely coming for Russia
Mar 03rd 2022
372
I can't imagine being able to face my family after that...
Mar 03rd 2022
374
The Sanctions that NATO countries have imposed on
Mar 03rd 2022
373
Sanctions expert ⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️
Mar 03rd 2022
375
lol
Mar 03rd 2022
377
he's an expert in literally everything. it's incredible
Mar 03rd 2022
383
Where did you get its hurting NATO countries more than Russia?
Mar 03rd 2022
378
He made that up
Mar 03rd 2022
380
We're going to feel some consequences, yes.
Mar 03rd 2022
381
      I just think the whole big bad wolf narrative is bullshit,
Mar 03rd 2022
382
           preaching to the choir bruh.. how many OKP’s supported invading Iraq?
Mar 03rd 2022
384
           спасибо товарищ
Mar 03rd 2022
385
man...WTF at this nuclear plant fire...
Mar 03rd 2022
386
Apparently they are shelling Europe’s largest nuclear power plant
Mar 03rd 2022
387
this is scary
Mar 03rd 2022
388
Better news
Mar 03rd 2022
389
These psychos are shooting at a nuclear power plant.
Mar 03rd 2022
390
This made me feel a little better
Mar 03rd 2022
391
This is the next closest thing to him dropping a nuclear bomb
Mar 03rd 2022
392
Absolute madness. God help us all right now
Mar 03rd 2022
397
The big bad wolf is pretty evil
Mar 03rd 2022
393
At least we can still laugh
Mar 03rd 2022
394
Yea this was hilarious.
Mar 04th 2022
403
Putin just now: “ we have no I’ll intentions toward our neighbor”
Mar 04th 2022
400
I hate this fuck
Mar 04th 2022
401
its like Putin got news he has a few months to live
Mar 04th 2022
402
      JUST LIKE TENET!
Mar 04th 2022
404
Now America is upset at India because India has yet to
Mar 04th 2022
405
Are mad and upset the right words here?
Mar 04th 2022
406
Now They are Shooting Journalists
Mar 05th 2022
409
Um there are war crimes happening right now
Mar 05th 2022
410
Russia is holding Brittney Griner in custody…(swipe)
Mar 05th 2022
412
wow!
Mar 05th 2022
413
Full steam ahead for this Autocratic regime
Mar 05th 2022
416
she been detained for 3 weeks before we heard about it.
Mar 05th 2022
417
      actually i shouldnt believe anything coming out if russia.
Mar 05th 2022
418
           I doubt it. She’s been in custody for almost a month
Mar 05th 2022
419
                russia didnt just start being on some bullshit when the war started.
Mar 05th 2022
420
                funny, you sound just like these guys
Mar 05th 2022
421
                There is a video tape of the situation.
Mar 06th 2022
432
                Vladimir will surely show compassion here
Mar 06th 2022
427
                Russia was planning this war since before the Olympics
Mar 06th 2022
428
                     What does that have to do with her being detained before
Mar 06th 2022
433
                          I’m following up on Reeq saying we can’t trust Russia
Mar 08th 2022
442
Johnny Harris thinks Putin will lose
Mar 05th 2022
414
What does Ja Rule think
Mar 05th 2022
423
      It’s Murda
Mar 05th 2022
424
      lulz
Mar 05th 2022
425
      .
Mar 06th 2022
426
Russia's second biggest oil company calls for an end to Putin's war
Mar 05th 2022
422
captured russian troop talks about how they were lied to by the govt.
Mar 06th 2022
429
Brave as hell. Could be putting his family at risk here
Mar 06th 2022
431
Kremlin to Netflix: air our propaganda.
Mar 06th 2022
430
yup iron curtain days.
Mar 06th 2022
434
It seems like even if Russia wins, they'll lose....if....
Mar 07th 2022
435
Not only that - if they "win" they won't be able to keep up the
Mar 07th 2022
436
Can you occupy a country of 40m people?.
Mar 08th 2022
439
I dont even understand how they plan to occupy Ukraine
Mar 08th 2022
440
This is where I am at as well, Russia can’t hold Ukraine
Mar 08th 2022
445
Putins calculus imo:
Mar 08th 2022
441
Russian Soldiers Looting Banks and Grocery Stores in Ukraine(video)
Mar 08th 2022
437
Civilians are actively being targeted
Mar 08th 2022
438
Its so American to be upset over rising gas prices
Mar 08th 2022
443
Also so american to blame the prez for rising gas prices.
Mar 08th 2022
449
      Yep, I think Biden’s line of Putin’s price hike at the pump
Mar 08th 2022
450
      Already hearing Fox News and them implying its a power play by Dems
Mar 08th 2022
453
Germany and the UK have moved away from a coordinated
Mar 08th 2022
444
Is This World War III? (swipe)
Mar 08th 2022
446
That’s a long read but I would say we are closer to Cold War II
Mar 08th 2022
447
Yep. Long but well written. And the title may be a stretch in that
Mar 08th 2022
448
      That’s more like American Propaganda.
Mar 08th 2022
451
Wait til this guy hears how Yeltsin got elected in '95
Mar 08th 2022
452
      LOL
Mar 08th 2022
454
           Unfortunately for you guys, the history didn't just stop there
Mar 10th 2022
462
                No. I’m not a communist. I’m more of a socialist
Mar 13th 2022
467
                     спасибо товарищ
Mar 14th 2022
470
                          Dude should go picket the white house or something.
Mar 14th 2022
471
                               they are targeting citizens and journalists
Mar 14th 2022
474
                               And America did the same thing in Iraq.
Mar 16th 2022
475
                                    I'm European and I'm much more anti-US than you.
Mar 16th 2022
477
                                    LOL yes !
Mar 16th 2022
479
                                    Crazy how he, as an American, will bring up the US history of illegal
Mar 23rd 2022
486
                                         This is a thread about Russia invading Ukraine though.
Mar 23rd 2022
487
                                              The US has been arming/training anti-Russian nazis in
Mar 23rd 2022
488
                                                   Do you really think you're saying something new?
Mar 23rd 2022
489
                                                        Bitch, has the US armed the Ukraine for years?
Mar 23rd 2022
490
                                                             Yes. Again, what is your point?
Mar 23rd 2022
491
                                    This place is the MSNBC/DNC message boards, man
Mar 23rd 2022
485
Sounds like Poland is handing over their old MiGs to Ukraine
Mar 08th 2022
455
are they?
Mar 09th 2022
457
It's not that simple.
Mar 09th 2022
458
Nobody wants the planes leaving their base going into Ukraine
Mar 09th 2022
459
      lol
Mar 10th 2022
463
      rockets can only fly so far
Mar 10th 2022
464
They’re at the price control stage that comes before Economic collapse...
Mar 10th 2022
465
Russian forces kill American Journalist
Mar 13th 2022
466
russia begging china for military help.
Mar 13th 2022
468
However this ends, Israel needs to be called out permanently.
Mar 13th 2022
469
A short history of Russias war on Ukraine (swipe)
Mar 14th 2022
472
Good read. Had missed it even though I regularly check the Guardian.
Mar 14th 2022
473
81 people were executed in a single day in Saudi Arabia ,
Mar 16th 2022
476
We get it
Mar 16th 2022
478
I couldn’t give 2 cents about the Ukraine or Russia.
Mar 16th 2022
481
      it sure looks like you are deflecting any blame towards Russia
Mar 22nd 2022
484
      I can care deeply about both situations
Mar 24th 2022
495
Should we go to war with an ally?
Mar 16th 2022
480
      It really does seem like he is posting from Moscow
Mar 16th 2022
482
Firing indiscriminately at civilian targets
Mar 20th 2022
483
remember when a russian victory was inevitable?
Mar 23rd 2022
492
Shows that simulations only go so far.
Mar 24th 2022
493
i wish this were the long term result:
Mar 24th 2022
499
      Decepticons will decepticon, yeah.
Mar 26th 2022
514
I think it matters where this news is coming from
Mar 24th 2022
494
      Nah. China has purposefully run Russian propaganda.
Mar 24th 2022
496
      your trusted news source is china? even after covid?
Mar 24th 2022
498
      Nigga did you say China??? This has to be a joke.
Mar 24th 2022
500
      RT is also a good source
Mar 24th 2022
501
Zelensky: never tell us our army doesn’t meet NATO standards
Mar 24th 2022
497
belarus taking some of that bass out their voice.
Mar 25th 2022
502
Yeah Lukashitbird looking so weak right now
Mar 25th 2022
509
russia says phase 1 nearly complete lol. will focus on donbas now.
Mar 25th 2022
503
another russian general killed (7th).
Mar 25th 2022
504
more: read this report about how much of shitshow it is for russia.
Mar 25th 2022
505
Admitting you lost without admitting you lost. Much deserved L
Mar 25th 2022
506
Yep, Putin/Russia is trying to make their own off-ramp to this failure
Mar 25th 2022
508
This is a question for someone much smarter than me
Mar 25th 2022
507
I would have to say no.
Mar 25th 2022
510
      He said "someone much smarter."
Mar 28th 2022
515
           lol damn
Mar 28th 2022
517
                ITS MURDER!!!!
Mar 28th 2022
519
this is seriously pathetic/comical from russia:
Mar 26th 2022
512
missing russian defense minister had a 'heart attack'.
Mar 25th 2022
511
Not a failed democracy. A successful autocracy
Mar 26th 2022
513
this psychopath poisoned the peace negotiators.
Mar 28th 2022
516
I legit thought you were speaking metaphorically
Mar 28th 2022
518
Russian oligarchs are getting popped off...
Apr 23rd 2022
520

Cocobrotha2
Charter member
10850 posts
Fri Jan-21-22 12:17 PM

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1. "Ultimately, it's more about China and Taiwan"
In response to Reply # 0


          

The US cares more about Taiwan than Ukraine but allowing Russia to take over Ukraine would embolden China to do what they've wanted to do for a long time.

<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->
<-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><->

  

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Heinz
Member since Dec 26th 2003
20562 posts
Fri Jan-21-22 03:24 PM

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4. "What does China want to do?"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

  

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ShawndmeSlanted
Member since Oct 30th 2004
43107 posts
Fri Jan-21-22 03:38 PM

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5. "Ultimately: "
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

https://www.google.com/search?q=all+your+base+are+belong+to+us&sxsrf=AOaemvKPq4VUUfNkIE9NKzKbppCOwmja3A:1642797547287&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&vet=1&fir=ZNuxDBdH3gsdmM%252C1XfMWms8WhopCM%252C%252Fm%252F0cs52%253B7u008V2fM5q1GM%252CzCYnrIIXkB74gM%252C_%253B24r8yh2PWadiaM%252CRguIO8nit9SxBM%252C_%253B0_QIlt1NOAs_JM%252CEr4nTyE6jemYIM%252C_%253BaZNpDM5QQi6N4M%252C4iQb7XX26VJkbM%252C_&usg=AI4_-kQKUP3Gw_PQOGfjt01lYXxldvrMtg&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwiYnfnh2cP1AhU6yIsBHWvuAXcQ_B16BAgYEAE#imgrc=ZNuxDBdH3gsdmM

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

  

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walihorse
Member since Aug 03rd 2006
16118 posts
Fri Jan-21-22 03:05 PM

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2. "I don't have answer to any of this, but..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

my dad who is extremely leftist anti-american mentioned to me recently that he sees how the US has been going. Economy pull back, covid surges, and slumping Biden approval. he says he wouldn't be surprised if a war breaks out soon.

This was about 2 or 3 weeks ago he told me this.

this post just reminded me of him saying this

If a fat guy falls in the woods and there is no one around to see it, do the trees laugh?

  

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MEAT
Member since Feb 08th 2008
21645 posts
Fri Jan-21-22 03:22 PM

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3. "It's time for another war. It's been too long (RE: Ukraine)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://www.patreon.com/posts/61378892

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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rawsouthpaw
Charter member
15473 posts
Fri Jan-21-22 04:19 PM

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6. "i came across this analysis a few weeks ago "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

this all seems to be very intense and serious challenge to US imperialism and its influence.

https://en.desk-russie.eu/2021/12/30/what-does-the-russian-ultimatum.html

"The Russian blackmail is explicit and is directed at both the Americans and the Europeans. If the West does not accept the Russian ultimatum, they will have to face “a military and technical alternative”, according to Deputy Foreign Minister Alexander Grushko: “The Europeans must also think about whether they want to avoid making their continent the scene of a military confrontation. They have a choice. Either they take seriously what is put on the table, or they face a military-technical alternative.”

After the publication of the draft treaty, the possibility of a pre-emptive strike against NATO targets (similar to those that Israel inflicted on Iran), was confirmed by former Deputy Minister of Defense Andrei Kartapolov (Duma Defense Committee): “Our partners must understand that the longer they drag out the examination of our proposals and the adoption of real measures to create these guarantees, the greater the likelihood that they will suffer a pre-emptive strike.”

To make things clear Russia fired a “salvo” of Zircon hypersonic missiles on December 24. Dmitry Peskov, the Kremlin spokesman, commented on this event: “Well, I hope that the notes will be more convincing”. Editorialist Vladimir Mozhegov added: “What are our arguments? First and foremost, of course, our most reliable allies — the army and the navy. To be more precise, the hypersonic Zircon missile (the “carrier killer”, as it is affectionately called in the West), which makes it absurd for the United States to have a fleet of aircraft carriers. The impact of the Zircon cracks a destroyer like a nut. Several Zircons will inevitably sink an aircraft carrier. The Zircon simply does its job: it methodically shoots huge, clumsy aircraft carriers like a gun at cans.”

An article in the digital newspaper Svpressa eloquently titled “Putin’s ultimatum: Russia, if you will, will bury all of Europe and two-thirds of the United States in 30 minutes” dots the i’s: “The Kremlin will have to prove its position with deeds. It is probably only possible to force the “partners” to sit at the negotiating table by coercion. Economically, the Russian Federation cannot compete with the West. There remains war.” Military expert Konstantin Sivkov believes that “to bring the United States and NATO to the negotiating table, some kind of super weapon is needed. For the moment, Russia does not show this potential to its adversaries. But it exists. Russia has the capability to use superpowered munitions with a capacity of up to 100 megatons. We must repeat that we are not interested in a world without Russia, as Putin once said, and demonstrate our determination to strike if NATO expands. After that, I can assure you that they will be afraid. Nothing else can stop them. It is naive to rely on diplomatic procedures. Russia’s move is a signal that already radical measures are going to be taken. You refused, so you will have yourselves to blame…”


What is at stake

Reading the Western press, one is under the impression that nothing is happening. Westerners do not seem to understand what is at stake. They think that only the fate of Ukraine is being decided, which is of less concern to them than that of Armenia, judging by the pilgrimages of our presidential candidates. Many French officials find it normal that Russia should claim a sphere of influence. They resemble those who in 1939 believed that Hitler’s demands would be limited to Danzig. However, one only has to look at the texts proposed by Moscow to understand that the stakes are quite different.

The Russian ultimatum demands that “the following be legally established: the renunciation of any enlargement of NATO , the cessation of military cooperation with post-Soviet countries, the withdrawal of American nuclear weapons from Europe and the withdrawal of NATO armed forces to the borders of 1997”. "

  

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Amritsar
Member since Jan 18th 2008
31309 posts
Fri Jan-21-22 05:10 PM

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7. "Ukraine has every right to their sovereignty "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

And part of that includes being able to join NATO which Putin obviously does not want.

Also it’s hilarious and pathetic watching both American leftist tankies AND the Tucker Carlsons of the world trying to spin this into the US/NATO being the bad guy here.

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
2156 posts
Fri Feb-18-22 12:45 PM

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8. "Sorry to up this,but just wanna rant abt this war that nobody wants smh"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Feb-18-22 12:48 PM by kfine

          

Especially given the escalations this week (eg. citizens being evacuated from the border region - https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/shelling-breaks-out-east-ukraine-west-moscow-dispute-troop-moves-2022-02-17/).


Yes the NATO issue is tricky, but there's also a lot of doublespeak going on as well so wtf knows (note: bear in mind I have no ties to the region or this topic professionally, this is just my political junkie perspective so take with a grain of salt).


There's been open courtship between NATO and Ukraine for many years now (eg. I read recently that joining the alliance was even incorporated into Ukraine's National Security Strategy and Constitution couple of years ago), and the right of any nation to try to join is enshrined in NATO's founding treaty (an open door policy the US hasn't shied away from exploiting to antagonize Putin, especially since Bush-Cheney). But NATO expansion is def controversial in that part of Europe because of Russia, not NATO membership (i.e. there *has* been slight pushback to applicants over the years, but that's mostly been more of a procedural concern bc a prospective country must have members' unanimous support to join).

The far, far, bigger challenge is that Russia demands not only that expansion stops but that NATO retreat to its pre-90s/pre-EU architecture: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/History_of_NATO_enlargement.svg/1095px-History_of_NATO_enlargement.svg.png , which would essentially halve its membership, and Putin says he'll drop a nuke if Ukraine joins NATO (eg. from press conf after talks with France last week - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10488413/Vladimir-Putin-warns-nuclear-war-break-Ukraine-joins-NATO.html?ito=video_player_click). This is bc all these central, eastern, and baltic european states joining the alliance limits Russia's sphere of influence, and the membership of border states would (understandably) be viewed as an existential threat.

So the tightrope facing the West involves not only a (so far unsuccessful) strategic aim of deterring Russian aggression (bc it undermines NATO's sphere of influence) but an optical one, since Russian supremacy over NATO would totally weaken current and prospective members' confidence in the alliance. That's why there's been all this confusing:

* "We must protect Ukraine!" from the West (meanwhile Ukraine's pres was like everybody pls chill);
* "We're not trying to start a war!" from Russia (meanwhile Putin sent 100,000+ troops to their border as well as hard weaponry, medics, and blood for transfusions);
* "Putin, calm tf down man!" from the US (meanwhile Biden sent thousands of troops to the region and keeps escalating the West's rhetoric)
* "Ukraine's not part of NATO and won't be for the forseeable future!" from NATO members (meanwhile joining NATO is part of Ukraine's National Security Strategy and codified into their constitution);

etc etc. Almost every state actor in this crisis is giving mixed signals. So imho if this war pops off (which is looking increasingly likely) it'll be one of the worst-timed and worst-executed diplomatic failures in recent history.

  

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Dstl1
Charter member
53353 posts
Fri Feb-18-22 01:11 PM

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9. "thank you for this, seriously."
In response to Reply # 8


          

.

Okay player...so you can type whatever you wanna type, but I still write better than anybody you like - Torae

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
2156 posts
Fri Feb-18-22 01:18 PM

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11. "np"
In response to Reply # 9


          


just needed to vent

people are (understandably) very distracted

but it feels a bit like our leaders our taking advantage of that

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
22461 posts
Fri Feb-18-22 01:20 PM

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12. "x2"
In response to Reply # 9


          

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
2156 posts
Fri Feb-18-22 01:16 PM

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10. "AND let me rant abt Putin right quick, bc I believe this is all symptoms..."
In response to Reply # 0


          


to a core problem.

Which is that Putin's simply an imperialist, and likely views himself as some Ivan the Great type figure who can resume the territorial expansions pursued by (imperial) Russia centuries ago and restore its former glory. There's territory/people he believes should belong to Russia for historical and ethnocultural reasons, and he despises the way Gorbachev capitulated to the West and enabled the territorial loss in the Soviet Union's collapse. That's all this really boils down to imho. He's also like 70 yrs old, alleged to be in poor health (https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13253481/putin-cancer-parkinsons-emergency-surgery/ , https://lansinginstitute.org/2021/09/29/putins-worsening-health-set-to-be-a-determining-factor-in-russias-policy-over-the-next-four-years/), and prob willing to die for this cause.


The unfortunate thing tho is Putin's also a way smarter tactician than any of our leaders in the West, he def seems to KNOW this (and them), and he most certainly timed this escalation taking the following into account:


* this is a terrible fucking time for *us* to go to war. Seriously. Like, we're the worse off hemisphere BY FAR wrt covid (https://www.statista.com/statistics/1101373/novel-coronavirus-2019ncov-mortality-and-cases-worldwide-by-region/); social cohesion is so bad right now multiple anti-gov protests have been erupting all over the place (eg. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59363256 , https://www.npr.org/2022/02/14/1080632899/bank-freezes-funds-canadian-border-protest); and these issues present a vulnerability/operational risk for the troops/human resources necessary to even staff a war (eg. https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2022/02/02/army-begins-discharges-for-covid-vaccine-refusing-soldiers/);

* people are ALREADY getting crushed by near double-digit inflation; some store shelves are ALREADY running bare on the regular; oil and gas prices are ALREADY at record highs, etc. Economic history demonstrates that wars are inflationary and wreak havoc on global supply chains, which would only exacerbate these issues (especially the energy markets considering Russia is one of the world's top suppliers of oil and gas);

* judging from the way Russia's been kicking the West's ass in spheres like cyber in recent years (eg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_federal_government_data_breach), Putin's hybrid/irregular warfare capabilities appear superior to ours right now. Imagine the crazy covid variant Russia's prob cooked up for NATO troops to bring home;

* the West's - and particularly the US' - relationship with China is the most fraught it's been in a long time (eg. the US withdrawing from Beijing Olympics). This imho weakens the West's threats of economic sanctions, since China's who Russia can turn to if the West cuts them off and China's still the world's 2nd biggest economy, NOT crippled by covid, and powers ~30% of the planet's manufacturing output.


It's also worth mentioning that the nationalists the West has been arming over there includes literal fucking neo-nazis (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/azov-far-right-fighters-ukraine-neo-nazis , https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/neo-nazis-far-right-ukraine/ , https://www.euronews.com/2022/02/13/ukraine-far-right-group-offers-training-to-civilians), who are now littered throughout Ukraine's formal gov and military as well as an accepted paramilitary.
Additionally, the territories under dispute (the Donbas region = the unrecognized Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk_People%27s_Republic#/media/File:Map_of_the_war_in_Donbass.svg) are actually majority PRO-Russia. Like, they literally DECLARED INDEPENDENCE from Ukraine after Ukraine's 2014 regime change, over half the population is ethnic russian, russian is the most predominantly-spoken first language in the region, and they wish they could join Russia like the Crimeans lol (Putin shrewdly doesn't officially recognize the LPR and DPR, but started enabling other forms of integration like providing them Russian passports and driver's licenses). But unfortunately for the people in Donbas, their region is also resource-rich and an industrial centre (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donbas#Economy), which is what (imho) seems to be driving Ukraine's and by proxy the West's resistance to letting these people align with who they want.

So given all the above, the questions that annoy me are 1. Which side looks like it's reactively taking bait and not very well-positioned to back it up? and 2. Which side looks like it's at a clear strategic and tactical advantage? I don't think the answers to these questions favor us at all. I've also been reading recently that the US political establishment always thought Obama was too easy on Putin after he annexed Crimea (eg. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2018/03/05/dont-rehabilitate-obama-on-russia/). But ffs the Crimeans VOTED to join Russia in a (admittedly shady) referendum and at least we weren't staring nuclear war/WW3 in the face.

I'd take Obama-era restraint over this East v. West tough guy bullshit any day. Did I miss when Europe fucking collapsed over Crimea? Smh. I think both Putin and we are doing too much right now.

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
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13. "I'm at a loss on what should be done"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

Obviously if Putin wasn't looking to take Ukraine all would be well.

Since he is, it is different than Crimea no? Do people in Ukraine want to be a part of Russia?

It kind of seems like people are saying "Yeah we see Russia will invade Ukraine, oh well, let them deal with it. If anything let Europe handle it."

It seems like things would escalate and we would end up getting involved later anyway. What is the best case of US and Europe just ignoring it and letting Putin do as he pleases?

To be clear, I am anti-war. I just don't know what could be done differently from the US side.

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Sun Feb-20-22 03:38 PM

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26. "The Donbas region != all of Ukraine tho"
In response to Reply # 13


          

So your first concern about this differing from the Crimea situation bc Putin wants to annex all of Ukraine is based on a false premise (that's been perpetuated by Western media).

Ukraine has 24 oblasts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblasts_of_Ukraine), of which the territories currently under dispute account for only 2 small eastern ones that border Russia (Donetsk and Luhansk): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporarily_occupied_territories_of_Ukraine#/media/File:Russo-Ukraine_Conflict_(2014-present).svg. These territories declared independence from Ukraine in 2014 along with Crimea (also shaded pink in the linked map but further south) and like I described above are majority pro-Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novorossiya_(confederation)), ethnic russian, predominantly russian speaking, carry Russian passports and driver's licenses, etc. For all intents and purposes the Donbas region has already unofficially joined Russia.

When our media talks about Russia invading Ukraine, they make it sound as if Putin's goal is to swoop in American style and topple the government in Kyiv (like Libya, Iraq, etc). But the Ukrainian government itself hasn't supported that assessment (eg. https://www.politico.com/news/2022/01/28/ukrainian-president-downplays-imminent-invasion-00003219 ) and has cautioned the West against alarmism.

I think Putin wants to annex Donbas but is exploiting NATO's eastward expansion as pretext/justification for militarizing the shared border with Ukraine. This way, Russia is simultaneously prepared for any response it may provoke with its land grab (bc Putin knows circumstances have changed since he got away with annexing Crimea) and maximizing pressure/deterrence about NATO.

As for what the US should do differently, I don't know but I really don't think further escalating is the way - especially since NATO is unwilling to appease Putin's concerns about expansion. By egging him on, the US is accelerating a moment that Putin has been waiting his entire life for to bomb/humiliate/exact vengeance on the West. I doubt a diplomatic solution will be easy, especially since NATO can't really turn back the hands of time on its expansion. But the fire and fury talk is super irresponsible. I much prefer Obama's restraint in response to Crimea.


Also re: the other question you pose, about whether people in Ukraine want to be a part of Russia, I think Ukraine's recent political context is helpful:


* Ukraine's current pres Zelensky (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volodymyr_Zelenskyy) is young,chill, West- and EU-friendly, but has only been pres of Ukraine since 2019. He was elected on a platform emphasizing unity and rooting out corruption, and a big thing he's done is codify Ukraine's intent to join NATO into their constitution and initiate first steps.

* Before Zelensky, Ukraine was led 2014-2019 by a staunchly nationalist West- and EU-friendly oligarch named Poroshenko (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petro_Poroshenko) who was elected/installed as an independent and was a LOT more antagonistic towards Donbas separatists (calling them terrorists, pirates, etc). A big thing that he did was sign the Ukraine–European Union Association Agreement which was viewed as a first step towards Ukraine joining the EU.

*Before Poroshenko, and preceding Ukraine's 2014 regime change/"revolution" (in quotation marks bc some believe the Ukraine revolution was not organic but rather a West-backed regime-change op to install a more West/EU/NATO-friendly Head of State), Ukraine was led 2010-2014 by long time Prime Minister-turned-President Yanukovych (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych) who was from the Donbas region, ethnic russian, and somewhat neutral in the sense that he was slightly nationalist but also pro-Russia in policy orientation (eg. a big thing he resisted was signing the Ukraine–European Union Association Agreement, and he also sought to align Ukraine more with Russia instead of NATO). Yanukovych was deposed during Ukraine's controversial regime change/"revolution."


I think this electoral history is important, bc the fact that a Russian-Ukranian pres (Yanukovych) from the Donbas region was not only democratically elected by the people of Ukraine but appointed Prime Minister/Head of Parliament 3 times by multiple presidents speaks to the size and influence of the ethnic Russian/pro-Russian population there. Then, after Yanukovych was deposed during Ukraine's regime change/"revolution", the subsequent pres (Poroshenko) was kind of like a Trump (even employing Paul Manafort as a consultant according to his wiki lol) - very brash and nationalist and oversaw great instability due to his antagonism of Russia and Donbas separatists. Ukrainians then chose not to re-elect Poroshenko and instead elected current pres Zelensky, who ran as a progressive unifier (so I'm guessing still EU friendly but no so nationalist that he alienated Ukraine's ethnic Russian and/or anti-EU population). And as we've seen in this current crisis, Zelensky is much more peace-oriented than his predecessor (even trying to get the West to cool down our rhetoric https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/27/politics/biden-zelensky-call/index.html). So from all of this, my take is that the people of Ukraine want peace most of all, and don't seem to want to go to war over issues like EU membership, NATO membership, Russian ethnicity or affinity, etc. The Ukrainians who are die-hards about these issues seem to be fringe minorities, with the most die-hard Pro-Russians going as far as forming separatist Republics, declaring independence from Ukraine, and seeking closer alignment with Russia - which has contributed to the current crisis.

  

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mista k5
Member since Feb 01st 2006
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Mon Feb-21-22 10:20 AM

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41. "much appreciate this"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

thanks

  

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Damali
Member since Sep 12th 2002
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Wed Feb-23-22 12:16 PM

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81. "all of this is 100% correct. Also, y'all should be listening to Gaslit N..."
In response to Reply # 10


          

the weekly analysis provided by Sarah Kendzior and Andrea Chalupa is unmatched when it comes to global authoritarianism and autocracy. Chalupa is Ukranian, as well.

the worst day in history, according to Putin, is when the Soviet Union fell/dissolved/ended (etc etc).

That tells you everything you need to know about what he wants, and why Ukraine is just the first step.

d

"I don't speak to provoke. I speak because I think our time on Earth is short and each moment that we are not our truest selves, each moment we say what we do not mean because we imagine that is what somebody what's us to say, then we are wasting our time

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Mon Feb-28-22 04:00 AM

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262. "Ah I remember you recommending Gaslit before"
In response to Reply # 81


          


I keep meaning to check it out lol

thanks for the reminder

  

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Tiger Woods
Member since Feb 15th 2004
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Fri Feb-18-22 03:13 PM

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14. "it's terrifying how reminiscent this is of early-Iraq"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

at least then, the bloodthirsty hangover of 9/11 still lingered.

But this? NO ONE wants this. The president of Ukraine doesn't want this, and worse yet it seems he doesn't think this is as dire as Biden and co are saying this is. This is appalling.

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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Fri Feb-18-22 03:51 PM

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15. "LOL I thought basically exactly this just yesterday."
In response to Reply # 14


          

>at least then, the bloodthirsty hangover of 9/11 still
>lingered.

^^^ specifically this part.


>But this? NO ONE wants this. The president of Ukraine doesn't
>want this, and worse yet it seems he doesn't think this is as
>dire as Biden and co are saying this is. This is appalling.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Feb-18-22 04:12 PM

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16. "starting that war before the midterms.. smh"
In response to Reply # 15


          

woulda thought he would wait til late 2023 for that second term.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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Fri Feb-18-22 05:21 PM

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17. "Maybe he doesn't fully expect to make it that far lol."
In response to Reply # 16


          

>woulda thought he would wait til late 2023 for that second term.

Also, the midterms are arguably far more important.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Fri Feb-18-22 06:11 PM

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21. "did biden move 190k troops to the ukraine border? "
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Fri Feb-18-22 06:34 PM

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23. "btw putin literally started a war with ukraine before 2014 midterms."
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

last time a dem president was in office.

in february of that midterm year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation


anyone thinking biden is provoking the war is obviously ignorant of the reality of the situation.

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calij81
Member since Jan 17th 2007
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Fri Feb-18-22 05:35 PM

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18. "I don’t find this reminiscent of early-Iraq at all"
In response to Reply # 14
Fri Feb-18-22 06:04 PM by calij81

          

Of course the Ukraine president doesn’t want this and it is in his best interest to downplay this as much as possible but you can’t ignore, and I think it is naive of him to try to ignore the 130,000 troops that currently surround his country.

It does seem that Putin does want this or else he wouldn’t have taken Crimea, supporting separatist in the east and move all those troops to the boarder.

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Fri Feb-18-22 05:40 PM

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19. "190k troops now."
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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20. "this is nothing like iraq."
In response to Reply # 14
Fri Feb-18-22 05:44 PM by Reeq

  

          

unless youre referring to russia launching false flag ops and using disinformation as a fabricated pretense to make it look ukraine is the aggressor and a russian invasion is just a response/defense.

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Sofian_Hadi
Member since Jan 03rd 2003
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Thu Feb-24-22 09:08 AM

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118. "President of Ukraine was WRONG"
In response to Reply # 14


          

---------------------------------------

"The world is before you and you need not take it or leave it as it was when you came in." - James Baldwin

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Fri Feb-18-22 06:20 PM

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22. "its weird that anyone blames anyone other than putin."
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Feb-18-22 06:39 PM by Reeq

  

          

190k troops to the border of ukraine. clearly the agressor.

false flag ops and social media disinformation pretending like ukraine is attacking russia/separatists (even tho russia has been building up its military presence on the border for the past few months unprovoked lol).

biden admin laid out intelligence that said russia was gonna do literally what it is doing right now. and people still fell for it lol.

putin literally did this same shit like 7 years ago (when obama was in office). literally around the same exact time in a midterm year.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation

and people are still falling for it lol.

putin literally doing what putin has always been doing and people still find some way to try to rationalize something to the contrary.

this is all putin. it has nothing to do with ukraine joining nato. or bombings in donbas. or whatever else russia says (and people still fall for it lol).

putin believes he/russia is entitled to ukraine. and hes been focused on annexing it into russia for the longest.

if theres a war its because putin started a war.

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calij81
Member since Jan 17th 2007
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Fri Feb-18-22 06:56 PM

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24. "I agree that this is all on Putin and him trying to put the old Soviet "
In response to Reply # 22


          

Territory back together again.

Putin sees Ukraine drifting more towards the west/EU sphere of influence. I honestly think if the US/NATO said they would never accept Ukraine to NATO, the next demand will be that Ukraine doesn’t join the EU.

I don’t see Biden moving 6,000 troops to NATO countries as remotely close to what putin has done with moving 190,000 troops.

  

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Amritsar
Member since Jan 18th 2008
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Sat Feb-19-22 08:23 AM

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25. "Exactly. I like how the admin is publicizing the intelligence reports to..."
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

Putin bullshitting saying he's pulling back troops? We respond with what actual intelligence sources are seeing on the ground

Throwing out possible invasion dates and possible pretexts for invasions that the Russians might use here.


The onus is .. on the guy who amassed 150K+ troops on the border of a sovereign democracy.

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Sun Feb-20-22 04:03 PM

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27. "Obviously the core problem is Putin, but how can you or anyone rate"
In response to Reply # 22
Sun Feb-20-22 04:08 PM by kfine

          

this warmongering as 'Effective Putin Management'. He's literally conducting nuclear drills with hypersonics that can hit Western soil right now:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-oversee-nuclear-drills-ukraine-crisis-mounts-2022-02-19/

https://www.voanews.com/a/russia-threatens-to-deploy-tactical-nuclear-weapons-/6354408.html

https://spectrum.ieee.org/russia-china-the-us-who-will-win-the-hypersonic-arms-race

Things never escalated this badly/quickly bc of Crimea.

So ya, a response like Obama's to the lead-up and aftermath of Crimea's annexation is preferable to this inflammatory mess. The only reason Americans talk the kind of exceptionalist bullshit you've typed here is bc the war you clamor for is always fought on other people's soil. Against smaller countries with weaker infrastructure, governments, and resources, who lack the capabilities to bring the fight back to your doorstep.

Threatening "swift and severe" military escalation with Russia only increases the likelihood of a nuke hitting Western soil if war breaks out bc as soon as Putin assesses the US might nuke Russia anyway, he def isn't going down without deploying the most giant fuck you possible to the West for history's sake. Russian vengeance against the West is at the core of Putin's worldview. He's been waiting his entire career for the moment to humble us, and Biden and Blinken accelerating the arrival of that moment is, imho, wildly irresponsible. There IS no scenario where the US/NATO deploys a "swift and severe" military response to Russia annexing Donbas and Putin retreats, it's either diplomacy or mutual death and destruction.

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Sun Feb-20-22 04:45 PM

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29. "huh? who rated anything as 'effective putin management'?"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

im not even sure who you got that from (maybe someone other than me?).

you seem to be operating under the assumption that putin isnt already decided or leaning towards invasion.

youre treating putin like some chess piece without his own will and agenda.

dude has already been caught using a blatant false flag op and disinformation campaign to try to spin the narrative on violence in donbas.
https://twitter.com/RichardEngel/status/1494770294271225861
https://twitter.com/KyivPost/status/1494793525875118085

fake videos and pictures fabricated before the violence even began.

so clearly this was premeditated (exactly what biden and our intelligence services *said* he would do).

my only point is that putin is the aggressor. if he wants war...then its on him solely. if he doesnt invade then there is no war. nobody else is escalating the situation. hes the one already in complete war posture with the massive troop/weapons buildup (75% of the entire russian active duty military is on the ukraine border now).

what about this is 'american exceptionalism' or me clamoring for war? that sounds like some stock canned response you already had on deck for this debate regardless of who you were actually debating with. i said nothing even approaching that. i didnt even mention the american military or our response to putins actions lol. so you grabbed that out of thin air.

and how do you justify saying the only reason people clamor for war is because its always fought on other peoples soils with weaker capabilities but i havent seen you take issue with russia continually waging unnecessary war and invading smaller/weaker/non-aggresor ukraine. what about those people? you believe everyone should sit around and let them be slaughtered and have their country overrun and ruled by pro-russian forces (which they roundly reject in democratic elections)?

i have no idea why you find anyone elses words/actions anywhere near as objectionable as putins (who is the only one who has amassed his military in the region and begun electronic/cyber attacks on ukraine) but it is what it is i guess.

your demeanor on this is really weird. to the point youre inventing stances that people didnt even take just to rationalize some of your prearranged talking points.

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Sun Feb-20-22 04:23 PM

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28. "ALSO, the NATO and Donbas/DPR/LPR issues aren't propaganda"
In response to Reply # 22


          

what are you talking about

The DPR and LPR are legit unrecognized states that declared independence from Ukraine in 2014 the same time Crimea did, they just never ended up joining Russia. They've held their own elections since then and everything (eg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Donbas_general_elections).

Pres Zelensky started raising the alarm abt Putin coming back to annex the remaining separatist territories last year:
https://www.reuters.com/world/ukraine-sees-russias-issuance-passports-eastern-ukraine-step-towards-annexation-2021-05-20/

Any invasion and annexation concern coming out of Ukraine has always been abt Donbas. This narrative that Putin's trying to annex all of Ukraine is an artifact of the West. Putin's an imperialist but he's not a dumbass. He didn't even try annexing all of Ukraine when he invaded and annexed Crimea, so why would that be his objective now with Donbas as he faces even greater hostility from the West?

Separate from the Donbas issue, Putin's broader problem with Ukraine/Ukraine's gov/Kyiv is 100% about NATO; he's openly established Ukraine joining NATO (and any further NATO expansion) as a red line. Again, this is him saying so in no uncertain terms last week after (failed) talks with Macron:

https://videos.dailymail.co.uk/video/mol/2022/02/08/5984255003370174117/960x540_MP4_5984255003370174117.mp4


That imo is what all the positioning around Ukraine (that's been plastered all over the news) is about, to serve as the ultimate deterrent. But Putin also seems to be exploiting the NATO issue to advance his territorial interests, since the positioning around Ukraine can be multi-purposed to fend off Western countermeasures if he annexes.


What the US and its media have done is conflate all these issues and establish a countering red line of (poorly defined) "invasion", so now even if Putin only tries to annex Donbas - which, just like Crimea, the DPR and LPR actually want - the US will treat it like an annexation of all of Ukraine even tho Russia's annexation of Donbas would be as inconsequential to world affairs as the annexation of Crimea.

That's the unnecessary escalation from the West, imo. Pres Zelensky not wanting to lose Donetsk/DPR and Luhansk/LPR to Russia is understandable, bc what Head of State wants to lose territory under their watch. But in the grand scheme of things, all of these regions - Crimea, Donetsk/DPR, Luhansk/LPR - they are the equivalent of toenail clippings to Ukraine. They are NOT worth risking nuclear war or any other escalated human and economic waste. Zelensky has signaled he knows this by stating willingness to hold a nationwide referendum on Donbas or negotiate a (new) peace deal (https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukrainian-president-does-not-exclude-holding-referendum-crimea-donbass-2021-12-10/), meaning the disputed territories would prob serve as a bargaining chip to get Putin to chill about NATO. Ukraine has been the only cool-headed state actor in all of this.

My gripe with our leaders in the West is this: Why not simply stall this mf out. Putin is a 70yr old man with alleged health problems lol. With any luck, he's probably not going to head Russia for much longer (tho he signed a constitutional amendment into law so that allows him to remain pres until he's almost 90yrs old - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/vladimir-putin-president-russia-signs-law-allowing-2-more-presidential-terms/).LET HIM have Ukraine's toenail clippings. Has nobody contemplated that Ukraine could simply join NATO after this madman is no longer running Russia? He's literally amending Russia's constitution so he doesn't miss out on the opportunity to destroy us, like come on smh


>
>this is all putin. it has nothing to do with ukraine joining
>nato. or bombings in donbas. or whatever else russia says
>(and people still fall for it lol).
>

  

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calij81
Member since Jan 17th 2007
13125 posts
Sun Feb-20-22 05:14 PM

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30. "Trying to wait and hope Putin dies sooner than later is ridiculous "
In response to Reply # 28


          

Putin could easily live for another 10-15 years. Waiting for a world leader to die is not good foreign policy.

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
14208 posts
Sun Feb-20-22 05:47 PM

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32. "yeah this is really weird "
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

its either completely naive or intentional reality defying spin that completely ignores the entire history of putins actions.

its soooo weird from anyone who even pretends to be objective and non biased.

i mean...just *last year* putin signed a law changing presidential term limits to allow him to stay in power til 2036.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/vladimir-putin-president-russia-signs-law-allowing-2-more-presidential-terms/

'just wait for him to die' lol.

im sorry but you gotta have a more mature argument than that.

that also completely ignores his continued military aggression *right now* (the whole point of this post! lol)

plus...everyone is just supposed to wait out putins death...let him continue to wreak havoc across the world...and wait for him to die...like the next russian president is gonna come in on some kumbaya shit? lol.

once again...either really naive or intentional spin.

i love the queen kfine but this aint her best moment.

------

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
2156 posts
Mon Feb-28-22 03:44 AM

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260. "It sounds unorthodox, but I'd prefer it to nuclear war/WW3"
In response to Reply # 30
Mon Feb-28-22 03:45 AM by kfine

          

Especially given the developments this weekend


If, on any issue, the West can't resolve things diplomatically with him


then yes, I'm sorry, I'd rather we stall him out than engage in armed or nuclear conflict


I think you're misunderstanding my intent tho

I'm not advocating complete and total capitulation so much as handling him like a psych patient


10-15 years isn't actually that long, especially in contrast to the number of years it would take our continent to recover if he succeeded in nuking us


But it's also possible he could die sooner than that if he's assassinated during war

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Sun Feb-20-22 05:35 PM

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31. "this pro-putin slant of yours is weird. ukraine is a sovereign nation."
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

and it was explicitly recognized as a sovereign nation by russia in 1994.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

according to you there are several 'disputed territories' in ukraine that want independence from this sovereign nation.

and according to you (for some odd reason) this is rationalization/justification for *another* country waging war and invading this sovereign nation.

and also according to you...this sovereign nation wanting to join a multinational organization under its own free will...is somehow a logical reason for putin to want to wage war against it.

but werent you just trying to lecture folks on 'american exceptionalism' and clamoring for war?

russia waging war and invading a free country on behalf of separatist territories...isnt that the same as america invading countries like iraq, vietnam, korea, etc on behalf of anti-regime groups, anti-communist allies, 'democracy', etc?

(answer: yes it is lol)

how do you explain away the obvious hypocrisy and contradiction here?

you speak of these russian 'annexes' like corporate mergers lol. these are violent wars and takeovers of other countries. wheres that anti-war anti-imperialist energy from you on russia tho? are the russians fighting for these other peoples freedoms? lol.

and im still waiting for you to elaborate on why youre so critical of everyone *but* the specific person who is initiating this war lol. you accuse everyone else of escalation but putin (who...once again...is the only one massively building up his military on the border of another country). its so weird.

youve taken up this delusional stance that it is everyone elses responsibility to not make putin take militar action that he has already been building up towards for months unprovoked.

you asked if putin wanted ukraine why would he 'only' invade crimea in 2014? what a weird ass question. well...why would he invade crimea at all? lol. once again...your perspective on this is approaching pro-putin gaslighting.

btw...bringing it back...as a condition of ukrainian independence, acknowledgement of its territorial integrity, and freedom from military aggression by russia...ukraine gave russia its nuclear weapons and signed a non-proliferation agreement with countries *including russia*.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

so ukraine unilaterally disarmed itself of the type of weapons that historically deter invasions (with the assurance russia would never attack it). russia violated this clear agreement with the invasion of crimea in 2014 and is on the verge of doing it again.

care to speak on that? (or is it everyone elses fault for making putin violate that agreement lol)




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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Mon Feb-28-22 03:22 AM

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259. "I'm stunned you could read what I wrote and even conclude that."
In response to Reply # 31
Mon Feb-28-22 03:40 AM by kfine

          

>
>according to you there are several 'disputed territories' in
>ukraine that want independence from this sovereign nation.
>
>and according to you (for some odd reason) this is
>rationalization/justification for *another* country waging war
>and invading this sovereign nation.
>
>and also according to you...this sovereign nation wanting to
>join a multinational organization under its own free will...is
>somehow a logical reason for putin to want to wage war against
>it.
>
>but werent you just trying to lecture folks on 'american
>exceptionalism' and clamoring for war?


Let me help you out:

1. I don't agree with the persistent refusal to recognize those separatist territories' independence; I don't believe that NATO expansion should be non-negotiable; and I don't support Putin's current war against Ukraine (which is clearly a proxy conflict about so much more than Donbas). Just bc you and I disagree on one or more of these points doesn't mean I support Putin and this war. Stop trying to force everything into stupid binaries.

2. As I mentioned elsewhere, those territories want nothing to do with Ukraine lol. They've held referendums affirming their declarations of independence, formed their own parliaments, held general elections, adopted the Russian legal system, etc. Even as this current crisis escalated, the civilians in those territories evacuated to Russia not Ukraine (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/18/russian-backed-separatists-announce-evacuation-from-east-ukraine). So, especially after this past week's events, how can anyone argue that holding on to these territories isn't more of a liability to Ukraine than letting them go? I think Ukraine's policy should have focused on legalizing/finalizing peaceful separation from the beginning - just like Boris Yeltsin did for Ukraine in 1991 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Independence_of_Ukraine#International_recognition) - rather than this pipe dream of re-integration (one of few areas I think Zelensky fucked up by not distancing himself further from previous pres Poroshenko's heavy-handed nationalism). But apart from that, all of this is pretty important context that the West insisted on downplaying, in favor of a narrative justifying some supposedly inevitable East v. West showdown with Putin if he dared cross the border into Donbas. A dare we watched this maniac swiftly take up since he's obsessed over Russia winning that showdown his entire life.

3. Yes, I do think you should check your American Exceptionalism. What makes those territories' Declarations of Independence any less meaningful than America's Declaration of Independence when it sought to separate from Britain? Or Ukraine's own Declaration when it sought to seperate from the USSR? If the separatist territories haven't considered themselves part of Ukraine since 2014, then neither do I; not unlike how I recognize the State of Palestine even tho it's still not recognized by Israel. I should prob also mention that I'm only one generation out of Africa and decolonization wasn't that long ago; and for this and other reasons I view declarations of independence, pursuits of statehood, and the right to self-determination as extremely sacred.



>
>russia waging war and invading a free country on behalf of
>separatist territories...isnt that the same as america
>invading countries like iraq, vietnam, korea, etc on behalf of
>anti-regime groups, anti-communist allies, 'democracy', etc?
>
>(answer: yes it is lol)
>


American imperialism doesn't validate Russian Imperialism tho. Also, if the DPR and LPR *requested* Russia's military presence eg. https://www.dw.com/en/russia-says-donbas-separatists-ask-putin-for-military-support/a-60893224 (whether or not they knew it was for a dubious reason), then in my perspective Putin didn't invade and wage war on Ukraine until he LEFT the DPR. Your argument only makes sense if one doesn't recognize DPR and LPR independence, and if one thinks the Donbas issue centres Putin's gripe with Ukraine as opposed to the NATO issue and other grievances pertaining to Western influence. I don't believe such assessments are true.


>how do you explain away the obvious hypocrisy and
>contradiction here?
>
>you speak of these russian 'annexes' like corporate mergers
>lol. these are violent wars and takeovers of other countries.
> wheres that anti-war anti-imperialist energy from you on
>russia tho? are the russians fighting for these other peoples
>freedoms? lol.
>
>and im still waiting for you to elaborate on why youre so
>critical of everyone *but* the specific person who is
>initiating this war lol. you accuse everyone else of
>escalation but putin (who...once again...is the only one
>massively building up his military on the border of another
>country). its so weird.
>

One of my first responses to this post was a damn near essay ranting about Putin's imperialism, but nice try. As for this crisis, I've voiced multiple times in this post my disappointment in BOTH Putin's and the US' incendiary postures in the months leading up to this crisis. I have the right to feel that way about political affairs that can affect me and people I care about without fielding baseless accusations from you and your little gang of okp thoughtpolice.


>youve taken up this delusional stance that it is everyone
>elses responsibility to not make putin take militar action
>that he has already been building up towards for months
>unprovoked.
>
>


Engaging meaningfully with a volatile adversary to avert nuclear war/WW3 is called DIPLOMACY - literally one of the most crucial portfolios of any political leader. You, imho, are the one being delusional if you honestly think the US - permanently represented as Supreme Allied Commander as well as NATO's top supplier of funding and troops - didn't bear an outsized role in the alliance's refusal to consider basic concessions with Russia about concerns wrt eastward expansion (eg. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/biden-putin-meeting-nato-ukraine/2021/12/06/71225812-5677-11ec-8396-5552bef55c3c_story.html). It's beyond obvious that Biden's leveraging Putin's megalomania as cover for his and Blinken's failure to neutralize Putin's threat (eg. all that "he alone" and "unprovoked" talk). And now, as a result of their diplomatic failure, EVERYONE in the West - not just Americans but Canadians, Brits, Germans, Central Europeans, and most importantly Ukrainians etc - are getting dragged into potentially cataclysmic conflict that could have been avoided.



>btw...bringing it back...as a condition of ukrainian
>independence, acknowledgement of its territorial integrity,
>and freedom from military aggression by russia...ukraine gave
>russia its nuclear weapons and signed a non-proliferation
>agreement with countries *including russia*.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances
>
>so ukraine unilaterally disarmed itself of the type of weapons
>that historically deter invasions (with the assurance russia
>would never attack it). russia violated this clear agreement
>with the invasion of crimea in 2014 and is on the verge of
>doing it again.
>
>care to speak on that? (or is it everyone elses fault for
>making putin violate that agreement lol)
>


Well, you're kinda mixing things up here. Ukraine's been independent since 1991 - after declaring it's own independence, holding a referendum, and forming a government https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#Independence (note: not unlike what Crimea, DPR, and LPR have done). It disarmed and sought security assurances in that ---> *1994* <--- Budapest agreement because it wanted "accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons/NPT" (https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/Part/volume-3007-I-52241.pdf). So the first error in your premise is that Ukraine's independence was conditioned; it was essentially a peace agreement.

From what I understand, the (imho weak) legal argument that Putin and Lavrov tried to make is that Russia's recognition of and cooperation with Crimea, DPR, LPR, etc are not an affront to Ukraine's sovereignty, territorial integrity, or treaty commitments bc after the territories in question declared independence and formed their own governments, they were no longer represented by the Ukraine government (eg. https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-698237). I think I read at least one intl law expert allude to a similar interpretation, but even assuming that's total bullshit MY position is that the dispute was clearly a legal quagmire that could've been settled btwn the separatist territories and Ukraine alone. WITHOUT American or Russian warmongering, threats of "swift and severe" escalation, etc.

Now had your question been whether I think Russia violated the Budapest agreement by venturing beyond the separatist territories to invade/attack Ukraine "proper" I would be more resolute in my "yes". But even then, Russia is hardly the only signatory of the Budapest Agreement or the NPT that's disregarded a peace agreement. So as long as you KTSE for the US (or other violently imperialist states like Israel who are not a signatory of these particular instruments but similarly obscure their nuclear programs, disregard peace agreements, and pursue relentless expansion of their sphere of influence) then I'm with you. But you're not about to have me condemning Crimea, DPR, and LPR for cooperating - as newly formed states/governments trying to find their footing - with their only major ally just bc we don't like their ally, or framing such cooperation as a justification for war.

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Sun Feb-20-22 06:14 PM

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33. "whats the basis for pro-russia sentiment by some on the left today?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

liberal 'pinkos' used to (supposedly) have pro-russian sympathies based on socialism/communism/anti-capitalism/greed/downward wealth distribution/etc.

but russia today is an outright kleptocracy/oligarchy where a handful of literal robber barons suck up all of the countrys wealth into their own pockets (most notable the president).

its not even income inequality like uber-capitalism. its straight up income larceny where the government and wealthy tycoons (theres a lot of overlap) control all the money and stomp out any class mobility. violently too.

pretty much the embodiment of the complete *opposite* of democratic socialism and economic justice.

it seems like everyone on the left should hate russia and treat it as pretty much the standard of greed and inequality. but thats not the case.

was it really about economics or is it just about being anti-(domestic)authority/anti-establishment no matter what/who the other side of the coin is?

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handle
Charter member
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Sun Feb-20-22 06:51 PM

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34. "Links/proof?"
In response to Reply # 33


          

I don't see any pro Russia sympathy from the "left."

I see a SHIT TON for Republicans and right wing media.

Got some examples of main stream left being pro Putin's 2022 Russia?

------------


Gone: My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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35. "not the mainstream left."
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

just like the pro-communists werent the mainstream left.

i think most people know the segment of the left im talking about.

the same people who deny russia interfered in the 2016 election.

jacobin, dore, theintercept, etc crowd.

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Mon Feb-21-22 01:26 AM

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39. "you can read this thread and the replies to get a quick sense "
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

of what im referring to.

https://twitter.com/emptywheel/status/1495522137209294854

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Stadiq
Member since Dec 21st 2005
4548 posts
Sun Feb-20-22 11:05 PM

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37. "whats the basis for you worrying more about what the left"
In response to Reply # 33


          


says than what the people actually in power are doing/not doing?


Why is this relevant right now?


Its shit like this that makes folks call you an op. When your team is fucking up, you are ghost. Straight up. Nothing to say.

But you make weird distraction posts like you are fighting some proxy war against "the left"...when no one in here even brought it up. Completely irrelevant.

Why should any of us care more about shit on Jacobin than the actual failures of the administration?


Jacobin didn't let the child tax credit expire. Jacobin didn't drop the fucking ball on COVID. It wasn't Jacobin who wasn't able to keep Dems on track. Its not Jacobin downplaying inflation. Jacobin isn't keeping kids in cages.


But you want us to give a shit what "the left" is saying about Russia on Twitter?

smh.


And you get aggy when people call you out on this shit?


PS...you have like 10+ posts just in here frantically defending Biden at all costs...if you aren't getting paid I would say you need to "seek help"...


  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Mon Feb-21-22 12:02 AM

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38. "fam you gotta stop following me around with these unhinged replies."
In response to Reply # 37
Mon Feb-21-22 12:15 AM by Reeq

  

          

so im bringing up 'completely irrelevant' shit (that actually applies to the subject matter within the post) but you bring up covid, the child tax credit, inflation, and kids in cages (which apparently are fair game in your mind)?

and apparently i go ghost when 'my team' is fucking up but im also in here with 10+ posts frantically defending biden?

a reply with nothing but incoherent craziness outta you but im the aggy one.

you havent even added anything of substance or relevant to the actual post.

you just ran in with your only reply to dickride me like a stalker.

from now on i gotta start sidestepping you weirdo niggas like scorned females.


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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
73775 posts
Mon Feb-21-22 11:03 AM

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43. "lmao.. reeq definitely on Biden’s payroll"
In response to Reply # 37


          

or needs to be.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Mon Feb-21-22 02:40 PM

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50. "^ say you cant debate me on the facts "
In response to Reply # 43


  

          

...without saying you cant debate me on the facts (c)

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Amritsar
Member since Jan 18th 2008
31309 posts
Mon Feb-21-22 01:53 PM

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45. "Leftist media carrying Russian disinformation is a huge problem "
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

And it appears to be working well. They’re influencing a segment of our population’s opinions on this critical treaty we signed.

NATO is responsible for the relatively world stability since WW2

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Mon Feb-21-22 02:22 PM

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48. "these same folks wanna scrap nato, multilateral trade agreements, etc."
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

like those arent the exact things that have prevented a third world war.

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
15746 posts
Mon Feb-28-22 12:52 PM

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284. "Clearly he is a plant"
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
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Tue Mar-01-22 08:10 AM

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310. "You see it."
In response to Reply # 37


          

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Mon Feb-21-22 11:02 AM

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42. "I’ve seen tons of alt right and GOP folks showing Putin sympathy"
In response to Reply # 33


          

haven’t seen the “left” doing it

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Brotha Sun
Member since Dec 31st 2009
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Thu Feb-24-22 04:56 PM

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158. "lol"
In response to Reply # 33


          

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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36. "biden the warmonger agrees to summit with dove putin."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1495562132947095557

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Amritsar
Member since Jan 18th 2008
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Mon Feb-21-22 08:35 AM

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40. "American imperialist to meet with hero of Soviet Socialist Republic"
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

  

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Walleye
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Mon Feb-21-22 11:17 AM

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44. "No."
In response to Reply # 0


          

I'm not sure what's happened in the past 75 years that would make people think we were capable of military intervention that didn't make things worse. Or would make people believe anything US authorities say about our motivation and capabilities.

The good imperialist nation(s) fighting the bad imperialist nation(s) is a pretty familiar story at this point. And we already know the winners are the military industrial complex and whichever horrifying rightwing weirdos we empower in the country we're ostensibly helping.

I don't know man. Kind of feels dumb to have this argument again so soon after 2002-2003.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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75. "Dawg, the history of Europe is non-stop war UP until about 75 years"
In response to Reply # 44


  

          

I think NATO is a large part of that.



>I'm not sure what's happened in the past 75 years that would
>make people think we were capable of military intervention
>that didn't make things worse. Or would make people believe
>anything US authorities say about our motivation and
>capabilities.
>
>The good imperialist nation(s) fighting the bad imperialist
>nation(s) is a pretty familiar story at this point. And we
>already know the winners are the military industrial complex
>and whichever horrifying rightwing weirdos we empower in the
>country we're ostensibly helping.
>
>I don't know man. Kind of feels dumb to have this argument
>again so soon after 2002-2003.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Amritsar
Member since Jan 18th 2008
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Tue Feb-22-22 10:35 AM

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76. "just call them nazis like you want to "
In response to Reply # 44


  

          

And we
>already know the winners are the military industrial complex
>and whichever horrifying rightwing weirdos we empower in the
>country we're ostensibly helping.


yes Zelensky the "right wing weirdo"


Ukrainians like this are who we empower: https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/st1jxx/women_who_previously_worked_in_clinical_research/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3


  

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Amritsar
Member since Jan 18th 2008
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46. "Shout out to Bernie: https://twitter.com/berniesanders/status/1495175761..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://twitter.com/berniesanders/status/1495175761032101889?s=21

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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47. "he must be on bidens payroll."
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

on a serious note...its notable (and under-discussed) how far outside the mainstream a lot of bernie supporters have moved past bernie on a lot of issues.

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Reeq
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49. "putin calls 'live' televised security meeting on ukraine."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

russian defense minister has a watch on that shows it actually took place about 4 hours earlier lol.
https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1495775697121517570

stating the obvious...but the whole thing was staged propaganda.
https://twitter.com/JDiamond1/status/1495772414113943557

president of estonia on the blatant premeditated escalation being carried out by putin.
https://twitter.com/AlarKaris/status/1495509829691006978


kinda hard to continue to act like its anyone else fault for escalation at this point. this has all been comically obvious that putin is wagging the dog. they dont even care enough to cover their tracks.

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Reeq
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51. "read this thread covering putins speech."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://twitter.com/W7VOA/status/1495830963884068874

dude is waxing nostalgic about the old days of the soviet union and saying ukraine is inherently part of russia. he said ukraine was never a true nation.

clearly laying the nationalistic pretext of russia being the rightful 'owner' of ukraine to justify invading it.

he even says lenin was wrong for creating ukraine and the ussr should have never let soviet republics to leave during the breakup of ussr.
https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1495838531268321282

this is straight up czar shit. not even cold war shit.

another reminder...

ukraine is a free independent nation recognized by russia itself and guaranteed security from russian invasion in exchange for ukraine handing over its nuclear weapons to russia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

putins invasion of ukraine in 2014 and potential invasion now are both violations of this agreement.

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MEAT
Member since Feb 08th 2008
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Mon Feb-21-22 03:19 PM

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52. "White men have too much free time and not enough imagination "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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Reeq
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53. "russia has deployed enough forces for larger invasion (not just donbas)."
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Feb-21-22 03:54 PM by Reeq

  

          

https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1495848602027110401

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Reeq
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63. "more common sense:"
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

https://twitter.com/LukeDCoffey/status/1495888926908821519

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Reeq
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54. "russian stock futures collapse over 20% in one day."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1495846129086480395

the effect of the russian security meeting and putins speech signaling the likelihood of war.

*if* theres one thing that might stop all of this...its the russian oligarchs losing a shitload of wealth because of putins megalomania.

eu already said they were slapping sanctions on russia for deeming 2 separatist regions of ukraine as independent.
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1495859020795723776

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Reeq
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55. "putin orders 'peacekeeping' troops into ukraine."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://twitter.com/biannagolodryga/status/1495872841484488708

its playing out *exactly* how our intelligence agencies said it would.

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calij81
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56. "I can’t believe people are still both siding this and trying to blame ..."
In response to Reply # 55
Mon Feb-21-22 05:15 PM by calij81

          

Biden while Putin is pushing this and further escalating things. He keeps antagonizing and trying to force the US, EU, NATO and Ukraine to do something so that he can “blame” them for the war.

But you keep getting accused of being in Biden’s payroll for calling a spade a spade.

Like you said above, I could understand some of the leftist defending of Putin/Russia if Russia were a communist/socialist state still but that isn’t the case so you can’t defend this on some ideological lines/philosophy.

  

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Reeq
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57. "they accuse people of being paid by democrats for having common sense."
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

thats really all they have cuz reality aint working out well for them.

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calij81
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58. "The right is actively rooting for Putin because “own the libs” "
In response to Reply # 57
Mon Feb-21-22 05:41 PM by calij81

          

They are full on authoritarian cheerleaders now.

The hard left is basically buying into Russian propaganda, both sides, and “but Iraq WMDs” to bend themselves into pretzels to blame Biden for recognizing something as radical as Ukraine sovereignty.

The center truly cannot hold any longer.

  

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Reeq
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61. "the horseshoe is real."
In response to Reply # 58


  

          

the fringes regularly arrive at the same destination via different routes.

its amazing how effective propaganda is.

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makaveli
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59. "I’ve yet to hear logical reasoning as to why this would be Biden’s f..."
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

“So back we go to these questions — friendship, character… ethics.”

  

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Reeq
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60. "lol @ this tweet"
In response to Reply # 59


  

          

https://twitter.com/KareemRifai/status/1495883578365952006
-----
It really took Vladimir Putin saying verbatim that he's sending in the troops for people on the fringe to consider that the US intelligence community knows more about the situation in Ukraine than their favorite Youtubers.
-----

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calij81
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64. "I think Biden and his admin has been smart to publicize all the intel"
In response to Reply # 60
Mon Feb-21-22 05:52 PM by calij81

          

But then people get upset because Russia didn’t attack when Biden said they would! That’s the point, let Putin know that we know his bullshit and air it out before hand so he can’t do a false flag or concoct some sham excuse to invade. Beat disinformation by getting out and ahead of it.

If we followed the old playbook and didn’t say anything or preemptively put out that intelligence then putin would have invaded Ukraine weeks ago.

It got putin to the point where he had to go on TV for a highly choreographed propaganda piece to admit why he is going into Ukraine.

  

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Reeq
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70. "yup salute to whoever made that call at the nsc."
In response to Reply # 64


  

          

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Amritsar
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65. "corporations! military industrial complex! "
In response to Reply # 59


  

          

  

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calij81
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67. "To distract from the Durham report!"
In response to Reply # 65
Mon Feb-21-22 06:17 PM by calij81

          

To distract from Hunter Biden!

  

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Reeq
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68. "dude in here said biden was starting a war before the midterms lmaooo."
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

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Amritsar
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69. "Fast Food News Diets"
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

I can brush it aside for domestic news; becomes something completely different when its international relations.

It is tough to point to any one particular culprit affecting our body politic. I've mentioned what TYT and the Secular Talk are doing. But IG and Tik Tok have an effect on people's opinions too. You can find influencer 20somethings giving their "take" on the situation -- regardless of the truth in their take, it is about 8 steps removed from the original source material.

What they lazily blanket as "corporate news" also has foreign war correspondents and reporters embedded in the damn region. This is also not an entertaining way to deliver the news as... other options.

During the most recent Israeli-Palestinian conflict, we all saw the effect of our news diets play out.

If I really wanted, I could draw a straight line for folks between those types of sources ^^ and the HATE CRIMES we saw here on American soil against Jewish people.



  

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Reeq
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62. "its remarkable how fast putin shitted on his defenders/apologists."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

a lot of cold takes about his intentions got obliterated literally overnight.

matt taibbi just sent this tweet less than a day ago.
https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1495540540330360835

putin didnt even give them some lead time to pretend they were right for a while lol.

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calij81
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66. "Putin is in for a penny, in for a pound now "
In response to Reply # 62


          

He won’t and can’t stop now without taking all of Ukraine. It makes no sense at all to not take the rest of Ukraine because if he doesn’t then Ukraine will try to fast track NATO membership and NATO would more than likely approve it.

  

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Amritsar
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77. "looks like he's moved on to .. supporting the trucker convoy"
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

absolute clown show

  

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Mynoriti
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78. "the timing of the hysterics over Trudeau"
In response to Reply # 77


  

          

vs mocking people's reaction to Putin is almost poetic timing.

not even saying you can't be critical of Trudeau but jesus.

and Taibbi is someone I always liked. it's been a genuine bummer to watch the last couple years. .

  

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Amritsar
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79. "Yeah i like him too "
In response to Reply # 78


  

          

somewhat surprised by his takes here.

In fairness I think it’s hard to be an expert on both domestic and intl news. It’s just too much to follow and keep up on to have an informed opinion

  

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Mynoriti
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82. "a lot of people think Russia has dirt on him"
In response to Reply # 79


  

          

because he lived there 5 or 6 years

and he notably pushed back so much against all the russiagate stuff. While i appreciated him calling out the msm for reating psychos like Louise Mecnch as credible, he always makes it a point to go extra hard on this topic. Now he's brushing off Putin, while at the same time comparing Trudeau to Romanian dictators.

I don't know if I believe that, but i wouldn't be shocked if it ever came out.


  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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71. "russian foreign minister says ukraine has no right to sovereignty."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1496064055286632451

theyre not even just talking about the 'independence' of pro-russian areas. and theyre not even just talking about ukraine cant join nato, eu, etc or do trade deals or receive weapons/training from the west.

theyre now straight up saying ukraine isnt a legitimate free country with real rights.

theyre basically saying ukraine is still an part of russia and russia is entitled to do whatever it wants with ukraine.

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Reeq
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72. "germany halts nord stream 2 gas pipeline from russia"
In response to Reply # 0
Tue Feb-22-22 08:31 AM by Reeq

  

          

https://twitter.com/AP/status/1496080150085177344

*if* anything compels russia to change course...its gonna be shit like this the shakes the markets and hurts their economy.

maybe putin dont gaf tho.

on the other side...gas prices are gonna shoot up even further as the russian supply becomes more unstable/unpredictable (and/or if russia cuts production on its own).

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Reeq
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73. "uk sanctions 5 russian banks and 3 oligarchs."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://twitter.com/BloombergUK/status/1496104684897153027

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Amritsar
Member since Jan 18th 2008
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80. "Individual sanctions are a potent weapon: https://www.reddit.com/r/MURIC..."
In response to Reply # 73
Wed Feb-23-22 09:13 AM by Amritsar

  

          

https://www.reddit.com/r/MURICA/comments/synqm2/not_even_government_owned_banks_would_hold_an/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf


Good example of one here on Carrie Lam. The CCP Hong Kong shill.

No financial institution will fuck with you in fear of them secondary sanctions.

Edit: wrong spot. Meant to put this as a new reply.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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74. "Can't take anyone serious who starts with, "Biden polls sagging, time fo..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

a war".

The political spectrum must be a circle because the far right and far left find a way to meet way to often.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Reeq
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83. "look at this russian tv video of 'ukrainian army shelling journalists'."
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Feb-23-22 02:59 PM by Reeq

  

          

https://twitter.com/jakluge/status/1496521293126066181

cmon lol.

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Reeq
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84. "nbc news analyst claims russia intends to invade entire ukraine"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://twitter.com/howardfineman/status/1496555084708290560

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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85. "i think ukrainian president zelenskyy fucked up big here."
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Feb-23-22 06:09 PM by Reeq

  

          

obviously its difficult to criticize someone in such a sensitive position as this but...

he was so focused on not wanting to provoke a war that he failed to take this time to fully prepare and build up his military resistance capabilities because he thought the hardened posture would incite putin.

but putins mind was already made up (which the biden administration tried to inform him of).

and a lot of valuable prep/drill time was lost (while russia was spending months doing drills and steadily building up its military capabilities.

dude spent much of the time chastising western countries for being too confrontational/inflammatory in their approach to russia. he said america was stoking panic about a russian invasion.

but then when its was clear russia was about to light that ass up...he went to the munich security conference and criticized the west for being too soft on russia smh.

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calij81
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86. "And now Putin isn’t taking his calls"
In response to Reply # 85


          

It is hard to blame him, as he was in a very tough position. I hope he did take that time to prepare for this invasion. Biden and the US probably bought him an extra month of time to prepare all his military forces and create some fall back plans.

Sounds like Russia is going to invade in the next 48 hours.

  

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Reeq
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87. "' russia has nearly 100% of the forces needed for a full-scale invasion'"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://twitter.com/NBCNightlyNews/status/1496648570447011842

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calij81
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88. "I feel terrible for the Ukrainian people"
In response to Reply # 87


          

Ukraine can’t stop that, they can only hope to slow it and allow citizens to evacuate and leave. Best case scenario is they grind the Russian army to a slow and painful advance with heavy losses.

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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89. "I'm waiting for the Republican reaction when Putin goes after Poland"
In response to Reply # 0


          

It's got people so hyper-focused on "winning" (or more appropriately the other team losing). I'm convinced people would accept their own country being harmed as long as they can own the other side.

Republicans taking this moment to push pro Putin propaganda is mind boggling. Team party politics got them so hyper-focused on "winning" (or more appropriately the other team losing). I'm convinced they would accept their own country being harmed as long as they can own the libs.


Tucker talking about what's so bad about Putin anyways, while describing Ukraine as an illegitimate client state of the (Democrat's) US State Department and Hunter Biden.

Many prominent republicans following Trump's lead giving Putin props for this as a segue to diminish Biden. The more meek ones simply deflect with whataboutisms about Biden.

I'm curious if the tone changes when Putin inevitably doesn't stop with Ukraine.

_______________________________________

  

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calij81
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90. "I would think the Balkan nations would be next before Poland"
In response to Reply # 89


          

Most Americans, even the GQP voters know Poland has been its own nation and might be able to pick it out on a map.

I guarantee no GQP voter can name a single Balkan nation or know where they are located on a map.

Most Americans probably don’t even realIze that Ukraine has its own language, history and that the Ukraine/Kiev predated Russia/Moscow.

  

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Reeq
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91. "its begun."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

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Reeq
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92. "russia already bombing outside the areas they deemed 'independent'."
In response to Reply # 91


  

          

https://twitter.com/pbump/status/1496682719841071121

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Reeq
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93. "explosions in capital city kyiv (during live cnn broadcast)."
In response to Reply # 92


  

          

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1496684066137071616

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calij81
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94. "It’s going down now"
In response to Reply # 93


          

Seems like Putin is throwing down potential nuclear retaliation if the US/NATO intervenes.

Biden and his admin did a good job of buying Ukraine time, consolidating NATO/Europe solidarity and forcing Putin to show his hand as the authoritarian, Make Russia Great Again imperialist that he truly is.

  

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Reeq
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Wed Feb-23-22 10:23 PM

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96. "biden gave us the straight truth about putins intentions from the jump."
In response to Reply # 94


  

          

he gave us real time intelligence spotlighting what russia was doing and planning to do.

he tried his best to warn folks.

how everyone reacted and drew up their own personal narratives was on them.

hopefully they learned a valuable lesson and dont make the same mistake in the future.

(i still cant believe people compared this to iraq and said biden was pushing for war)

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calij81
Member since Jan 17th 2007
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98. "Biden did a good job telling us the truth and calling Putin "
In response to Reply # 96


          

On his bullshit.

I feel bad for all the women, kids and men that are going to lose their lives for Putin’s version of making Russia the Soviet Union again.

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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99. "yeah thats the saddest part"
In response to Reply # 98


  

          


>I feel bad for all the women, kids and men that are going to
>lose their lives for Putin’s version of making Russia the
>Soviet Union again.

------

  

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The Mac
Member since Feb 11th 2008
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Thu Feb-24-22 01:14 PM

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142. "This may be true but why does it matter?"
In response to Reply # 96


          

If war is really on the horizon, why does it matter what some Twitter fingers are conjuring up?

If the intelligence assessment is that war is imminent, why do you care what Breitbart says??

Random Tweets are not responsible or at all accountable for wars. Biden "warned folks?" Who did he warn? What does that mean?

Can Breitbart commentators stop a war? Can @MAGA_Matt make a policy difference in Ukraine?

Isn't the responsibility of the POTUS a bit bigger than just warning internet commentators so they come up with better personal narratives? Shouldn't he be more focused on, I dunno, maybe STOPPING WAR instead of correcting our online opinions?


A few threads up ya'll say MAGA is all about "owning the libs" but this message reads a lot like the same - "hopefully they learned a valuable lesson." Why does the lesson of internet trolls matter in the middle of bombs dropping?

Cause I'm doing better now, don't mean I never lost shit/ I was married to a state of mind and I divorced it -- Black Thought

  

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calij81
Member since Jan 17th 2007
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Thu Feb-24-22 01:33 PM

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144. "IMO, it matters because those articles and tweets helps shape "
In response to Reply # 142
Thu Feb-24-22 01:38 PM by calij81

          

Public opinion for those that read them. If people are divided on the reasons for things, they will be divided on the response.

I am not saying we need to be 100% in agreement but right now we aren’t even in 75% agreement on Russia/Ukraine when the GQP, Cucker listeners and others are basically pro Putin and sympathize with Russia.

  

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The Mac
Member since Feb 11th 2008
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149. "But why does that matter to the POTUS?"
In response to Reply # 144


          

Or to important people making important decisions?

To me it seems POTUS should be working on finding a way to stop this war. He should have been working full time on avoiding it. He didn't make that happen, unfortunately.

But he WON bc a few MAGA tweeters now learned their lesson? Owning Matt Taibbi is more important than evading war?


We don't need agreement amongst the twitterverse to avoid war. We don't need consensus in the court of public opinion, although public opinion is probably 99% in agreement - NO WAR

That should be the priority and the only thing that matters. IMO he could have done all the little things right - intelligence leaks, sanctions, etc - but he still LOST the one and only objective.

Today we are at war, Ukraine is being attacked, and none of those little wins or twitterverse owns matter.

Cause I'm doing better now, don't mean I never lost shit/ I was married to a state of mind and I divorced it -- Black Thought

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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95. "some of these bombing videos are crazy."
In response to Reply # 93


  

          

https://twitter.com/Caucasuswar/status/1496683512920956928

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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97. "biden statement on russia bombing ukraine."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://twitter.com/samstein/status/1496688200399704067

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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100. "theres no rally around the flag effect for dem presidents."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

had this been a (non-russia-appeasing) repub president in office...dems would feel pressure to line up behind him and present a unified front against putins aggression. no doubt that repub president would receive a lot of support (and a bump in approval) from the general public (and the media).

but repubs go straight to attack mode (on a dem prez...not the real enemy) and the media will largely amplify/echo those attacks. and this war will be yet another polarized issue with mixed to bad public reaction/sentiment toward the presidents words/actions.

if 9/11 happened under a dem president...his party would have been destroyed in the midterms and he would have been driven from office in the next prez elections because of the worst intelligence failure in american history, every single death being pinned on him, the left turning on him for the civil liberty encroachments of the patriot act, plus going too hard (angry left) or too soft (angry right) on muslim citizens.

but you see how everything played out with a repub president.

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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101. "its wild how little effort putin put into building a pretext for war."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1496692266408325127

dude aint even tryna convince people.

just give his supporters/apologists memes to parrot.

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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102. "current mood:"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://twitter.com/Mikel_Jollett/status/1496693948684718092

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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103. "also current mood:"
In response to Reply # 102


  

          

https://twitter.com/DanaHoule/status/1496685448936239110

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calij81
Member since Jan 17th 2007
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104. "I am right there with you "
In response to Reply # 103


          

All this non sense about Biden trying to distract from some non sense like Durham or Hunter, this being good for him and the mid terms (LOL, like the GQP rallies around Dem Presidents during such things) or Biden blowing this out of proportion and other Putin apologist BS was really something to read.

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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105. "we are a nation of idiots."
In response to Reply # 104


  

          

across the entire political spectrum.

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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106. "yall girl is yallgirling."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://twitter.com/TulsiGabbard/status/1496695830715142148

knowing full damn well ukraine wanted to join nato as a deterrent to shit like we are seeing now.

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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107. "remember when hillary called tulsi a russian asset?"
In response to Reply # 106


  

          

and niggas shitted on *hillary* for it?

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calij81
Member since Jan 17th 2007
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108. "Laura Ingraham might be worse, you see some of the tweets "
In response to Reply # 107


          

of her show tonight with trump? Fuck her and Fox News with a dirty bag of dildos for the rest of her life.

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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109. "that network needs to be burned down."
In response to Reply # 108


  

          

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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110. "i wonder how republicans will react to white ukrainian refugees."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/1496694820869451779

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Rjcc
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111. "whiteness always more important than white people"
In response to Reply # 110


          


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

  

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40thStreetBlack
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112. "Jesus Christ, video from Kharkiv looks like the start of Desert Storm"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

video is on nytimes.com front page right now.


<----- Long Live The King

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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113. "this dickhead is pretty much wrong about everything nowadays."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://twitter.com/MMFlint/status/1494062815929266177

did he ever explain why...outta the blue in an election year in the middle of global pandemic...he just decided to drop a documentary attacking renewable energy?

https://twitter.com/verge/status/1265530937099669507

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Sofian_Hadi
Member since Jan 03rd 2003
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Thu Feb-24-22 09:08 AM

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117. "That's Freezing Cold Take level of wrong. "
In response to Reply # 113


          

---------------------------------------

"The world is before you and you need not take it or leave it as it was when you came in." - James Baldwin

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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114. "russian stock market fell 45% until trading was stopped."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FMWV04BVgAM6hsp?format=jpg&name=large

something like $300,000,000,000 in wealth wiped out in a few hours.

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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115. "And why couldn't we agree to not let Ukraine into NATO again?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

If the purpose of NATO is to balance the power in Europe between East and West, admitting Ukraine seems like it would upset that balance.

Why couldn't the deal be, we will not let Ukraine into NATO as long as you agree to not invade Ukraine. Was that ever seriously discussed?



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Sofian_Hadi
Member since Jan 03rd 2003
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Thu Feb-24-22 09:06 AM

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116. "Because a main tenant of NATO is free countries being able to join."
In response to Reply # 115


          

You can't let Russia tell you what countries can and cannot be a part of a National Alliance of free countries.

---------------------------------------

"The world is before you and you need not take it or leave it as it was when you came in." - James Baldwin

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Thu Feb-24-22 10:42 AM

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121. "Yeah I do not find this persuasive at all. "
In response to Reply # 116


  

          

The only purpose of NATO at this point is to contain Russia (& China). I think Russian has a reasonable concern about being encircled by Nuke equipped alliance put together solely for Russia.

Look at it another way, US was exactly right to say that Russia could not form an Alliance with Cuba that allowed them to put Nukes 90 miles from this Country. Its irrelevant if a major tenant of the Warsaw Pact (or any Treaty CUba and Russia came up with) is any country worried about the US could join. Allowing Russian missiles in Cuba would have caused War because it would have upset the balance and stalemate between US and Russian aligned countries. Likewise, it was a good resolution of the Cuban Missle Crisis for the US to compromise by removing U.S. nuclear missiles out of Italy and Turkey to maintain the balance and stalemate (regardless if the NATO pact allows us to put missles there).

I firmly believe there has ben 75 years of relative Peace in Europe because of the balance and stalemate between Western and Russian aligned countries. Now that Russia is on the decline of influence it seems not wise to grow a military alliance that threatens them. Let them into the EU. Form a new alliance, but the choice can't be down to either do or do not let them into NATO.

We got to remember that the purpose of all these pacts and treaties is to maintain peace and mutual protection. Going to war just to blindly follow a pact or a treaty is what started WWI. Its ironic but its very possible that entering a peace treaty and start a war.

So yeah there may be a good reason to allow Ukraine into NATO, but to me because NATO's charter says they can really isn't a compelling reason to me.


>You can't let Russia tell you what countries can and cannot
>be a part of a National Alliance of free countries.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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calij81
Member since Jan 17th 2007
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Thu Feb-24-22 11:26 AM

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125. "I will admit that NATO has a branding problem and should redefine "
In response to Reply # 121
Thu Feb-24-22 11:30 AM by calij81

          

It’s mission. It should rebrand as the Democratic Alliance Treaty Organization. Which would allow it to say it will defend any and all democratic nations that wish to join against authoritarian aggression. This would allow countries like Japan, Australia, SK and others to join.

It isn’t just about NATO. Putin doesn’t believe Ukraine is a real state and a sovereign state. If Ukraine said it would never join NATO, that still would not be good enough. If Ukraine decided to join the EU, Putin would object. Putin wants to put the old Soviet Union back together again and believes that Ukraine is a part of Russia. He views Ukraine as a renegade province much the same way China views Taiwan.

  

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Sofian_Hadi
Member since Jan 03rd 2003
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145. "^^^^^^^"
In response to Reply # 125


          

---------------------------------------

"The world is before you and you need not take it or leave it as it was when you came in." - James Baldwin

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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147. "the only problem with rebranding as 'dato' is"
In response to Reply # 125


  

          

now you gotta explain why hungary, turkey, poland, etc are in it lol.

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calij81
Member since Jan 17th 2007
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Thu Feb-24-22 02:35 PM

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150. "Yeah, no kidding, also explain why Hungary and Poland are in the EU"
In response to Reply # 147


          

>now you gotta explain why hungary, turkey, poland, etc are in
>it lol.

I would honestly take the opportunity to fully explain what membership requirements are and what defines a functional democracy for membership. Give those 3 countries 5 years to come into compliance and if the do not, kick them out.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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156. "But it's not about democracy or free markets. "
In response to Reply # 150


  

          

Back to my original point, it has always been about containing certain spheres of influence.

We need to get out of the geo-political framing of Democracy/free market v. Communism/Authoritarians.

We can look back at the Cold War and where these countries are today and its clear that its not about political or economic philosophies. The Chinese and Russia love Capitalism. It's about geopolitical spheres of influence. Its the US & Western Europe Aligned Countries and Russia OR Chinese aligned countries.

When we start talking about fighting for democracy anywhere in the world then you start to sound like NeoCons.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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calij81
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Thu Feb-24-22 05:57 PM

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164. "I’m not talking about fighting to “liberate” a country and install..."
In response to Reply # 156
Thu Feb-24-22 06:03 PM by calij81

          

A democratic government. I’m talking about a Democratic government deciding to join an alliance with other democratic countries for defense.

Neocons want to proactively and preemptively go into countries like Iraq and Afghanistan to install democracies or friendly governments and try to nation build. I’m not advocating something like DATO do this. DATO sets up a list of democratic standards a country must meet in order to join it via a vote by their citizens. DATO would fight to defend existing democratically aligned nations.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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366. "Fam, we should not risk Nuclear Holocaust over Kazakhstan"
In response to Reply # 164


  

          


It's just not NATO's job to defend any and all democracies around the word to the point where we will promise to go to war with anyone who invades a democratic country. If Kazakhstan decided tomorrow they want to be a democracy and Russian doesn't want it to happen, then there is nothing we can or should do about it. It's just not worth risking having direct conflict with Russia and risk nuclear war over.



>A democratic government. I’m talking about a Democratic
>government deciding to join an alliance with other democratic
>countries for defense.
>
>Neocons want to proactively and preemptively go into countries
>like Iraq and Afghanistan to install democracies or friendly
>governments and try to nation build. I’m not advocating
>something like DATO do this. DATO sets up a list of democratic
>standards a country must meet in order to join it via a vote
>by their citizens. DATO would fight to defend existing
>democratically aligned nations.
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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soulfunk
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Thu Feb-24-22 09:21 AM

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119. "Post 8 was a good explanation on this. To summarize"
In response to Reply # 115


  

          

Russia doesn't just want to stop at not letting the Ukraine in. They want NATO to drastically decrease membership to bring it back to pre-1990 size:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/History_of_NATO_enlargement.svg/1095px-History_of_NATO_enlargement.svg.png

If NATO let Russia dictate Ukraine not joining it sets precedence for Russia's argument of control over who can and can't be part of NATO. Russia's next step would be not acknowledging the Baltic states as part of NATO (or to that point, their independence as nations at all) and then you have a MUCH, MUCH bigger problem.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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123. "Yeah Kfine nails a lot in this post but who cares what Putin wants. "
In response to Reply # 119


  

          

Like we negotiate all the time with people who want more but are willing to accept less.

I will admit, I am greatly influenced by this substack:

https://nonzero.substack.com/p/why-biden-didnt-negotiate-seriously?utm_source=url

May be a Russian Asset but it sounds right.

Appeasement has us so shook that it might have never made us actually considering striking a deal in which UKraine doesn't join NATO. BTW, what is the great upside for allowing Ukraine to join NATO? We get to say Russia doesn't get to tell us what to do?

We didn't strike a deal and Putin invades the Donbas region. Would striking a deal have stopped him from doing that? Maybe. Do we care that the Russian parts of Ukraine that voted to align with Russia have been invaded by Russia? IDk. But to put another way. If this ends today with the only result is Russia now having the Donbas region wouldn't that be a win and a relief for everyone?

I really don't think you can enter these sort of negotiations overly focused on "well what are they going to do or want next?" All the near nuclear strikes that almost happened through out history were because one side wanted to take pre-emptive steps before the other side launched (like Crimson Tide and the Cuban Missile Crisis).

I think the biggest advantage the US has over Russia is time. The longer we keep a stalemate going, the sooner Putin dies, and the sooner folks from Eastern Boarder countries see Russian style economies do not work. That is why Putin is panicking, he is old and sees the direction Eastern Europe is heading. When Russia's strength is as a military power in a world run by economic power, he has to think a military conflict are betters terms for conflict then economic .

But again, Kfine is a rockstar. I do not think I am disagreeing with what he said, just going in a different direction.





**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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soulfunk
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Thu Feb-24-22 11:36 AM

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128. "I'll defer on people way smarter than me on this stuff...but"
In response to Reply # 123


  

          

I think it's naïve to say you can't be thinking about what the next move is, and the reasons behind WHY they are making their current move. Anticipating future moves on the chess board is a big reason why the Cuban Missile Crisis (and others that we don't even know about) didn't go nuclear.

>I really don't think you can enter these sort of negotiations
>overly focused on "well what are they going to do or want
>next?" All the near nuclear strikes that almost happened
>through out history were because one side wanted to take
>pre-emptive steps before the other side launched (like Crimson
>Tide and the Cuban Missile Crisis).

Crimson Tide? The movie?

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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155. "Agreed. I am just saying you can only game it out so far. "
In response to Reply # 128


  

          

I see a lot of twitter advice saying we shouldn't negotiate with Putin because Putin would never negotiate which I think is silly.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Thu Feb-24-22 11:47 AM

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129. "Losing the Donbas region wouldn't be a relief to Ukraine"
In response to Reply # 123


          

Taking territory of sovereign neighbors by force should not be acceptable in the post WW2 era.

They already did it recently in 2014 taking Crimea, and folks just effectively let it slide. And from the looks of things, it doesn't look like Putin is satisfied with just a small piece of territory this time.
He's declared the entire country of Ukraine to be illegitimate. There are military operations throughout the country.

_______________________________________

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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154. "But didn't the folks in the Donbas region WANT to join Russia?"
In response to Reply # 129


  

          

That makes a big difference.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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calij81
Member since Jan 17th 2007
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165. "Who wanted to join Russia? Was a vote held? Was it free and fair?"
In response to Reply # 154
Thu Feb-24-22 06:02 PM by calij81

          

We have been told by Putin and separatist that they wanted to join Russia but I don’t recall any election being held to vote on this. For all we know a small minority wanted to join Russia.

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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177. "Ok Vladimir lol"
In response to Reply # 154


          

That territory is (was) still Ukraine even though it is populated by separatists. Until the domestic issue is resolved (through civil war or otherwise), Russia should not be in the fight.

If folks in El Paso wanted to join Mexico, and the Mexican army swooped in to help, there'd be a problem.

_______________________________________

  

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calij81
Member since Jan 17th 2007
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179. "Mexico would have a more legitimate claim to El Paso than "
In response to Reply # 177


          

Russia does to eastern Ukraine.

  

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40thStreetBlack
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461. "by far."
In response to Reply # 179


  

          


<----- Long Live The King

  

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40thStreetBlack
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460. "that's basically what set off the Mexican-American war but in reverse"
In response to Reply # 177


  

          

>If folks in El Paso wanted to join Mexico, and the Mexican
>army swooped in to help, there'd be a problem.


<----- Long Live The King

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Thu Feb-24-22 10:36 AM

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120. "is it wrong that I want someone to snipe Putin "
In response to Reply # 0


          

why hasn’t it happened yet?

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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122. "He don't be strolling through the park. "
In response to Reply # 120


  

          

I do think an outcome that isn't out the realm of probability is coup takes him out.

TO my other point, Dude is 70 and apparently in bad health. Why not say, Yeah Putin Ukraine can't join NATO then wait for him to die and then reconsider?

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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legsdiamond
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124. "A lot of people will die before he does"
In response to Reply # 122


          

and I’m not talking some movie type sniper fire

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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126. "A lot more people will die if he is killed externally. "
In response to Reply # 124


  

          


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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137. "this (and why its a bad idea) was discussed above somewhere."
In response to Reply # 122


  

          

>TO my other point, Dude is 70 and apparently in bad health.
>Why not say, Yeah Putin Ukraine can't join NATO then wait for
>him to die and then reconsider?

i dont feel like scrolling up and finding it on my phone tho lol.

------

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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138. "btw his age and health might also give him a sense of urgency"
In response to Reply # 122


  

          

and hasten his timeline to wage war and consolidate these former ussr regions.

i mean...look how fast/sloppy he was in setting the pretext to war here. dude had like a 48 hr false flag operation with a bootleg media dog and pony show where even his most staunch allies couldnt pretend to fall for it.

------

  

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calij81
Member since Jan 17th 2007
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139. "Biden and his admin really boxed Putin in on the disinformation "
In response to Reply # 138


          

False flag and BS reasons for invasion. Putin had to reach back into Nazis running Ukraine and genocide against Russian speakers as a reason.

So first it was Ukraine can’t join nato, then it was Ukraine isn’t a real and sovereign state as it is historically part of Russia, lastly it was Nazis running Ukraine and committing genocide.

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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143. "'fog of unknowability'"
In response to Reply # 139


  

          

just flood the zone with a bunch of bullshit as a means of information chaos.

it takes a lot more time/effort (and gets less reach) to debunk multiple streams of disinformation.

people just get exhausted and dont know what to believe.

putin is known for it.

it was also adapted by steve bannon and much of the trump sphere (and basically the entire conservative right).

------

  

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My_SP1200_Broken_Again
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127. "That could set off a scary chain of events..."
In response to Reply # 120


  

          

< Live Mixshow - Thurs 10PM/EST >
https://twitch.tv/djchiefone

----Mixtape Archives-----
https://soundcloud.com/djchiefone

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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131. "yep.. and so could this invasion. "
In response to Reply # 127


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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My_SP1200_Broken_Again
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135. "Indeed"
In response to Reply # 131


  

          

  

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luminous
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132. "this Russian guy at my job said"
In response to Reply # 120


  

          

that the real Putin is dead and that the current Putin is a body double. Russian mafia is controlling the country...

--
Sometimes you have to look reality in the face and say 'No!'
-Ben (Reaper)

  

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Amritsar
Member since Jan 18th 2008
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140. "I wish a Chechen would "
In response to Reply # 120


  

          

Seriously.

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
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257. "What do you really know about this situation"
In response to Reply # 120


  

          

?

Is Putin any worse than Obama?

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

  

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40thStreetBlack
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309. "You angling for a guest spot on Tucker Carlson?"
In response to Reply # 257


  

          

>Is Putin any worse than Obama?


<----- Long Live The King

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
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395. "I don't watch the news but I do know the most stable"
In response to Reply # 309


  

          

economy in Africa was destroyed by Obama's administration so my question remains...

AND

that was just one country...

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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130. "Republicans: Biden is weak. Also Republicans: We shouldn't be involved"
In response to Reply # 0


          

How can they square those two positions at the same time?

_______________________________________

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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133. "do they ever try to make sense anymore?"
In response to Reply # 130


  

          

do their voters even care?

(we already know the answer to this lol)

------

  

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calij81
Member since Jan 17th 2007
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136. "I wish journalist wouldn’t ask these assholes what would they do"
In response to Reply # 130
Thu Feb-24-22 01:00 PM by calij81

          

Other than sending in troops, there is nothing to do.

I thought MAGA/America First was done with foreign wars and spending US money and blood to fight for other countries.

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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134. "random: kanye was planning to meet putin in the summer"
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Feb-24-22 12:53 PM by Reeq

  

          

and get involved with the same russian billionaire (and son) who helped cultivate trump into a russian asset (and spearhead the failed trump tower russia deal). kanye said he wanted russia to be his 'second home'.

https://www.billboard.com/music/rb-hip-hop/kanye-ye-russia-putin-trip-sunday-service-1235017604/

this is all while kanye continues to call himself baby putin.

damn i cant find the post on here...but there was one where a few of us were talking about how kanye flew to russia 2 weeks before he went to trump tower and officially endorsed trump. and we got called crazy for bringing it up (same way i did when i said kanye was helping to mainstream the alt right).

i would not be surprised if he posted some weird ass pro-russia/putin statement on ig at some point lol.

------

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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141. "anti war protests in st petersburg."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://twitter.com/EilishHart/status/1496903893812396039

------

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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146. "these dudes went straight for the capitol."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

and it look like kyiv is about to fall pretty quickly.

its amazing how fast this whole thing turned.

only days ago people were talking about russia just invading the disputed/separatist regions.

them niggas went right for the heart.

------

  

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Amritsar
Member since Jan 18th 2008
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152. "Terrified for these other former Soviet Bloc states "
In response to Reply # 146


  

          

  

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Backbone
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148. "This is so fucked up."
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Feb-24-22 02:17 PM by Backbone

  

          

Can't do anything but hope the Russian army gets stuck in the mud and has to fight a war of attrition rather than the blitz they're attempting now.

I hope the sanctions will actually be as tough as they're saying. It's going to mean my energy bill will explode even further, but I'll happily take cold showers for a couple of years if it means Putin & Co. get everything taken from them.

Also, I'm glad that clueless tankie leftists are a pretty rare sight over here.

Back to refreshing the news pages..

(edit) fuck me: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/24/kyiv-furious-as-eu-wavers-on-banning-russia-from-swift-payment-system

Spineless fools.

___________________
"So this is what everybody's always talking about! Diablo! If only I'd known. The beauty! The beauty!"

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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151. "sean penn is apparently in ukraine."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://twitter.com/XSovietNews/status/1496912799934603276

------

  

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Amritsar
Member since Jan 18th 2008
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Thu Feb-24-22 03:41 PM

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153. "Let’s see how long they can stomach urban war/ insurgency "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Looks to be the direction this is headed jn

Even the most dickish of Dictators can’t sustain a prolonged insurgency

  

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Reeq
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157. "republicans call justin trudeau a tyrant "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

for breaking up an illegal astroturfed 'convoy' of 10s of truckers in 1 city.

but they have zero smoke for putin who is violently quelling the peaceful anti-war protests of 1000s of russians in 50 cities.

------

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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159. "powerful photo."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://twitter.com/jbendery/status/1496969867840348167

------

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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160. "right wing social media is an alternate reality."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

right now theyre calling for the 25th amendment to remove biden.



------

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Thu Feb-24-22 05:37 PM

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161. "republicans are running against australia and canada."
In response to Reply # 160


  

          

our democratic allies are authoritarian.

no word on russia tho.

https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1496925513688006660

------

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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162. "russian troops surrendering & claiming they were misled on the mission?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/1496980430280708096

dont know how widespread this is but something to keep an eye on.

------

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Thu Feb-24-22 05:56 PM

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163. "wow more info:"
In response to Reply # 162


  

          

https://twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/1496977466908459012

https://twitter.com/JoshNBCNews/status/1496884570716835840

would be dope if a ton of russian soldiers deserted.

------

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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Thu Feb-24-22 11:22 PM

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169. "Holy shit this is wild."
In response to Reply # 163


          

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Feb-25-22 10:24 AM

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172. "This sounds crazy"
In response to Reply # 162


          

I heard reports that Russian soldiers are poorly trained. I can’t imagine going to “train” or do an exercise and then realizing its a fucking war.



****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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166. "this pic will do the best job of mobilizing white americans for ukraine."
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Feb-24-22 06:51 PM by Reeq

  

          

https://twitter.com/OAlexanderDK/status/1496985043314651138

------

  

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luminous
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Thu Feb-24-22 08:14 PM

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167. "lulz"
In response to Reply # 166


  

          

--
Sometimes you have to look reality in the face and say 'No!'
-Ben (Reaper)

  

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Nodima
Member since Jul 30th 2008
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168. "this post below it is so silly"
In response to Reply # 166


  

          

https://twitter.com/Speakingup_/status/1496973645234806786/photo/1


I get the intention as goofy as it is but...he fundamentally fucked up the metaphor since the supportive friends were the ones screaming get out of the house and Zelensky kept telling everyone to chill and stop worrying so much.

~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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171. "I shouldn’t laugh but this is fucking hilarious"
In response to Reply # 166


          

especially because on my phone I had to scroll down to see the whole photo and his eyes looked at me like an infomercial.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Fri Feb-25-22 08:58 AM

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170. "Sounds like the Ukrainians are putting up a decent fight"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Feb-25-22 09:01 AM by PimpTrickGangstaClik

          

Russians haven't progressed as quickly as expected.

The vibe seems like there would be a massive civilian insurgency even if Russia does take hold. They are being armed. The govt is instructing them to make Molotov cocktails

_______________________________________

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Feb-25-22 10:30 AM

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173. "Ukraine is blowing up bridges to the city"
In response to Reply # 170


          

https://twitter.com/olliecarroll/status/1497096089517772804?s=20&t=YK0pqrY-tEDqzxvQcmI7NA

has to be frustrating to drive a tank and use gps to find a way over a river.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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ThaTruth
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Fri Feb-25-22 10:56 AM

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174. "I know it always comes up but how much do these reporters get paid?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Feb-25-22 12:20 PM

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175. "not enough"
In response to Reply # 174


          

cause aint no fucking way..

and even if I did it, how could I not get involved if I saw a child dying or at gun point?

they built different.

and I always say the camera crew is more at risk. I’m dropping equipment when shit getd real.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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ThaTruth
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Fri Feb-25-22 12:38 PM

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176. "RE: not enough"
In response to Reply # 175


          

>cause aint no fucking way..
>
>and even if I did it, how could I not get involved if I saw a
>child dying or at gun point?
>
>they built different.
>
>and I always say the camera crew is more at risk. I’m
>dropping equipment when shit getd real.

all of them, bombs are dropping all around them, do the Russians know American reporters are here so don't drop bombs?

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Feb-25-22 12:53 PM

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178. "all males 18-60 banned from leaving the Ukraine. "
In response to Reply # 0


          

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2022/02/25/russia-invasion-ukraine-bans-male-citizens-leaving/6936471001/

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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makaveli
Charter member
15826 posts
Fri Feb-25-22 01:23 PM

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180. "war isn’t funny of course but this made me laugh when I saw it"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://twitter.com/ukraine/status/1496837835743133699?s=21

“So back we go to these questions — friendship, character… ethics.”

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Fri Feb-25-22 02:39 PM

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181. "Well if we are doing inappropriate things that made us laugh. "
In response to Reply # 180


  

          


https://www.tiktok.com/@mrgunn4/video/7067964274773134598



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Amritsar
Member since Jan 18th 2008
31309 posts
Fri Feb-25-22 02:49 PM

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182. "Want to see a leader ready to fight til the end? https://www.reddit.com/..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/t1aakn/zelensky_with_aides_prime_minister_state_their/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Apparently I’m supposed to believe these are Nazis though

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
14208 posts
Fri Feb-25-22 03:03 PM

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183. "ey are yall up on the story of his path to politics?"
In response to Reply # 182


  

          

dude was a comedian on a show about a regular citizen who became an overnight sensation for a social media video criticizing corruption in the government. he went on a meteoric rise to becoming the president.

then he ran a real life presidential campaign that many believe was a initially a promotional stunt (he named his party the same title as the show).

and he caught fire and actually won lol.

now dude is one of the most important leaders in the world at a time that could decide the geopolitical direction of much of the world for the next several decades.

its a pretty amazing story (and would be more amazing if he can hold off russia).

------

  

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calij81
Member since Jan 17th 2007
13125 posts
Fri Feb-25-22 05:13 PM

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189. "Yeah, he was basically a Brewsters Millions type story, just without "
In response to Reply # 183


          

the rich uncle to help bankroll his possibly fictitious campaign.

  

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Amritsar
Member since Jan 18th 2008
31309 posts
Fri Feb-25-22 05:21 PM

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192. "I vaguely remember something about this in the Economist"
In response to Reply # 183


  

          

his background as a comedian and his rise

Thanks tho, Reeq. That is a pretty amazing story considering everything that has happened since then

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
4460 posts
Fri Feb-25-22 03:15 PM

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184. "Yeah Putin is using that as an excuse "
In response to Reply # 182


  

          

but Ukraine does have a Nazi problem

https://jewishunpacked.com/can-ukraine-have-a-nazi-problem-with-a-jewish-president/

---------------------------
Signature

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Fri Feb-25-22 03:37 PM

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187. "the largest far right party in ukraine is about 10k people."
In response to Reply # 184


  

          

in a country of 44 million.

and the entire far right political coalition in ukraine got 2% of the vote last election and got completely locked out of parliament without a single seat.

the far right equivalent of nazis in america win elections...control state governments...occupy the white house...etc.

the talking point is based on a military alliance with far right militias against russian aggression.

if another country were to violently invade america...the military, liberals, conservatives, and far right militias (like oath keepers) would be locking arms to defend the country too.

------

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
4460 posts
Fri Feb-25-22 05:17 PM

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190. "That 10k has been busy"
In response to Reply # 187


  

          

putting up Nazi collaborator monuments, renaming streets, going on police patrols.

>
>the talking point is based on a military alliance with far
>right militias against russian aggression.
>

That's part of it, but they do have a history.

>if another country were to violently invade america...the
>military, liberals, conservatives, and far right militias
>(like oath keepers) would be locking arms to defend the
>country too.

Come on you can't believe that given 9/11 , Pearl Harbor, even during the so called "Greatest Generation's" time, Nazi POW's were treated better than Blacks in the armed forces. oath keepers locking arms lol nah

---------------------------
Signature

  

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calij81
Member since Jan 17th 2007
13125 posts
Fri Feb-25-22 05:17 PM

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191. "Yeah, the Ukrainian “nazi problem” is blown out of proportion "
In response to Reply # 187


          

>in a country of 44 million.
>
>and the entire far right political coalition in ukraine got 2%
>of the vote last election and got completely locked out of
>parliament without a single seat.
>
>the far right equivalent of nazis in america win
>elections...control state governments...occupy the white
>house...etc.
>
>the talking point is based on a military alliance with far
>right militias against russian aggression.
>
>if another country were to violently invade america...the
>military, liberals, conservatives, and far right militias
>(like oath keepers) would be locking arms to defend the
>country too.

So true on this last point. Even the Chinese Communist Party and Chinese Nationalist stopped fighting each other and joined forces once Japan invaded. Nothing unifies a country and it’s people like an invasion. It’s like family beef, I can talk shit about my dead beat uncle but if someone else tries to lay hands on him we will have a problem.

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
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Fri Feb-25-22 03:37 PM

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188. "btw everyone should watch this quick vid for context/fact check."
In response to Reply # 184


  

          

https://twitter.com/MehdiHasanShow/status/1497012581218885637

------

  

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Amritsar
Member since Jan 18th 2008
31309 posts
Sat Feb-26-22 12:38 PM

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205. "Will I get malware if I click that "
In response to Reply # 184
Sat Feb-26-22 12:40 PM by Amritsar

  

          

We could all stand to get CLOSER to the source material in war time

For example, reporters with Kevlar vests on right now.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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Fri Feb-25-22 03:19 PM

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185. "Yo, Big Hunger Games vibes. "
In response to Reply # 182


  

          




**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
14208 posts
Fri Feb-25-22 03:19 PM

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186. "that new polling hit different."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

https://twitter.com/AaronBlake/status/1497199646699102209

https://twitter.com/Jim_Jordan/status/1497226967724265479
https://twitter.com/Jim_Jordan/status/1497277060288548875

https://twitter.com/akarl_smith/status/1497248046450712609

https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1497216837364375552

clearly the miscalculated public sentiment and are looking to pivot.

if dems dont queue up every single pro-russia pro-putin word that republicans ever said in the past few years and hammer them with it...

------

  

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calij81
Member since Jan 17th 2007
13125 posts
Fri Feb-25-22 05:24 PM

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193. "Yeah, the right seems to be back pedaling now"
In response to Reply # 186


          

Dems needs to hit them hard on this for the mid terms.

  

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Amritsar
Member since Jan 18th 2008
31309 posts
Fri Feb-25-22 06:17 PM

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195. "Make them fucking pay for this "
In response to Reply # 186


  

          

In the midterms

  

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blueeclipse
Member since Apr 12th 2009
1753 posts
Sat Feb-26-22 11:14 AM

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202. "You know the Democrats wont do this..."
In response to Reply # 195


  

          

The are so fucking inept at messaging that even this cherry on top of the last few years of bullshit still won't help them.

You literally had a President tell a mob to storm the Capitol Building and somehow we are sitting here wondering if they can hold water in the midterms.

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
14208 posts
Sat Feb-26-22 11:09 AM

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201. "damn even putin nuthugger ron johnson changed his tune."
In response to Reply # 186


  

          

https://twitter.com/SenRonJohnson/status/1496873022023557122

------

  

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poetx
Charter member
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Sat Feb-26-22 04:31 PM

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211. "these muhfuckas spent the 4th of damn july in russia. i'll never forget ..."
In response to Reply # 186


  

          

that was some wild shit. just flaunting whiteness.


peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
I'm an advocate for working smarter, not harder. If you just
focus on working hard you end up making someone else rich and
not having much to show for it. (c) mad

  

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javi222
Member since Jun 14th 2003
4257 posts
Fri Feb-25-22 06:10 PM

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194. "Ignorant question… Was Ukraine screwed over "
In response to Reply # 0


          

by the United States and Europe when they gave nuclear capability in exchange for protection?

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
2156 posts
Mon Feb-28-22 03:56 AM

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261. "I don't think this is an ignorant question at all "
In response to Reply # 194


          

Not sure which country's propaganda I'll be accused of spreading lol, but here's my personal (anti-war, non-expert) opinion:


No. I don't think history should look poorly on Ukraine for choosing disarmament, which remains the noble position.

Especially during that time. Modern Ukraine's early years were among it's most corrupt. They could've gone a different way for sure and adopted a posture more like Pakistan.

Ukraine ultimately sought assurance in the agreement you're talking about (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances) to become a signatory of the NPT/Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (https://www.iaea.org/sites/default/files/publications/documents/infcircs/1970/infcirc140.pdf).

And I think nuclear states who are signatories of the NPT but who constantly fund, instigate, perpetuate, or industrialize war present more danger to not just Ukraine but the world... by repeatedly creating armed conflicts that can escalate to nuclear warfare. So I'd much prefer history look poorly on them.

Just my 2 cents. I'm sure it's not the consensus on okp tho

  

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calij81
Member since Jan 17th 2007
13125 posts
Mon Feb-28-22 04:35 PM

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298. "I don’t think it is an ignorant question and I largely agree with kfin..."
In response to Reply # 194


          

On his assessment.

Ukraine was very corrupt and very much in transition after the fall of the USSR. Furthermore, my understanding is that Ukraine had the missiles but didn’t have the launch codes or ability to launch them as that stayed in Moscow.

  

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Backbone
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Sat Feb-26-22 07:51 AM

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196. "I'm slowly starting to believe Putin bit off more than he can chew."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Maybe I'm reading the wrong (too optimistic) analyses, but it looks like Russia is fucking up on the logistics side (pushing in hard without setting up solid supply lines) and underestimated Ukrainian morale.

Lots of reports of Russian soldiers bein baffled they met any resistance at all, instead of being hailed as liberators.

Big Russian transport planes being shot down, failing to hold on to strategic positions such as airfields, lots of casualties.

China keeping its distance. Kazakhstan refusing to offer military support (despite having a Putin-backed regime).

Crackdown on social media in Russia (not something you if you think you're winning, right?).

Obviously I don't know shit and Ukraine can still fall, but it's a markedly different vibe from the first two days.

___________________
"So this is what everybody's always talking about! Diablo! If only I'd known. The beauty! The beauty!"

  

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Reeq
Member since Mar 11th 2013
14208 posts
Sat Feb-26-22 10:02 AM

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198. "people swear putin is some mastermind 3d chess player."
In response to Reply # 196


  

          

hopefully this exposes how false that is.

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Backbone
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Sat Feb-26-22 10:50 AM

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200. "Probably "disappeared" most of the competent people around him."
In response to Reply # 198


  

          

___________________
"So this is what everybody's always talking about! Diablo! If only I'd known. The beauty! The beauty!"

  

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