responding to these comments (which are intended for people generally, so not referencing "him" specifically, but rather a "he" to give context to my responses:
he said: yes. i was more identifying the source of the taboo and a culture that isn't greek or roman that had homosexuality. in new zealand, again, fa-afafine people tend to end up all out gay and pimping themselves. i see the current manifestation of mass media gay orgie irrsesponisble sex and drug consumption as a hard core escapist symptoms of very real depression. you don't have that in samoa pre colonialism.
I'm sayin: you don't have mass media and a drug "industry" in pre-colonial anythign?!? I wont' point out which logical flaw this is, but the analogy doesn't hold piss.
he said: would you define homosexuality as the desire to engage in sexual acts with others of the same sex and that alone?
I'm sayin: I'll only speak for myself, since I think it's a range of things for different people. there is no singular source for same sex desire. as for me, it speaks to my emotional desire for romantic companionship with men (with or without sex, but generally leading to sex, as it is, as it is for heteros, the consumate expression of romantic love between two adults). the sex act alone does not establish sexual identity. I know plenty of straight men who suck a dick now and then, but they are not "gay" because they don't identify with the sexual identity...they only indulge the act. and I think it's an important distinction. Also... i didn't have homesex until I was 19. i knew I was gay as early as 5. most straight know they are straight long before the first sexual act. it works the same way.
he said: for men, is homosexuality when you want to stick you penis into another mans bum and vice versa? on a very basic level i object.
i'm sayin: thanks for sharing. I'll consider your objection for a nanosecond when I'm out getting my mack on.
he said: if you want to argue that anything is unclean, anal sex is unclean. animal sex, child sex, bum sex. not clean.
i'm sayin': sex, you could argue, is unclean. bums can be cleaned, as the vagina must be cleaned. cleanliness is a very, very good thing... unless you've had a bad experience and are speaking first hand. i been diggin boys (pun intended) for some 15 years, and have (generally) not dealt with unclean bums. when there is an issue, it can be quickly and respectably resolved. all asses should be regularly washed: gay, straight, male, female... Also, anal sex is not exclusive to homosexuals. many, many, many straight people love it.
he said: i think it's great to love your friends, but i don't see the physical consumation of that love as anything more then severely damaging, and in the case of men, illogical. and that's what homosexuality is. bum sex with other dudes. no bum sex. i think that bum sex is demeaning.
i'm sayin': your phrasing here is very suspicious. illogical is your transition from one statement to the next, not the homosex between friends. what is heterosexual marriage if not sex between friends (I'd hope)? maybe that explains the divorce rate.
he said: i know that i can get more physical spiritual and mental enjoyment from a game of basket ball or a musical jam then sex with anything or anyone.
I'm sayin': I could agree with you here. homosex is not tantamount to my self-concept or identity, except for the ways that heteronormative culture and its enthusiasts impose their traditons and belief on my kind. i would prefer a romantic and sexual life that wasn't politicized. unfortunately, people like you make that difficult.
he said: and i think that's the problem. trying too hard to impose my life style on others to their detriment. i think the over politcizing of homosexuality would be to the detriment of black people and thus damaging to african spirituality... although if we can make it through crack, cointel pro, and 400 years of slavery, maybe this too is just another test to triumph over.
i'm sayin': so we shouldn't politicize blackness or africanness either, right? so politicizing of identity is just plain wrong? again, the politicization of identity is often the reaction to identity oppression, and that alone. when I'm with a group of folks who ain't trippin on my liking guys, I'm not thinking.. who am I gonna have to bust in the face... i'm cool. it's not until someone gets testy that I start to have violent thoughts.. LOL. (i'm just kidding...maybe.... ) but the point is, my gayness, like my blackness are beautiful and perfect, as they are... until around people who question this... and I can choose to internalize the majority opinions about blackness or gayness... or love them both. I am proud of my gayness BECAUSE I am a proud black man... an honest man, a man of integrity, a man who believes in truth... i ain't goin go out like no punk/ LOL
he said: on the other hand, i know some people who are just gay.
i'm sayin': like me?
he said: but look at this. in a gay parent house hold, there is an increased chance that the child will 'choose' homosexuality as a lifestyle.
i'm sayin: actually studies suggest otherwise. there IS an increased chance that children won't feel like they will be ostracized, kicked out of the home, these children will likely be less prone to suicide, if gay. hey... I was born to heterosexuals (I think... I actually haven't asked them about their sexual orientation...and we tend to assume, perhaps wrongly, that our parents are, necessarily, straight).
he said: i think it drives another wedge into the rift between man and woman in the black family. i understand what gays are pushing for. if they were not discriminated against, perhaps they wouldn't have a wounded spirituality. or be physically wounded/threatened with impunity on the part of their attackers.
i'm sayin': i think you have no idea what gays are pushing for. see...there are a lot of us... and there is no single agenda... because a lot of us don't agree with each other... or have differing beliefs and values..... you should understand this, being of african descent. gays, in some ways, are like black people.... we use the (blanket) term as a convenient mechanism for political or cultural solidarity, but blackness, like gayness, signifies different things to the vast number of people who identify as such (respectively and/or simultaneously... as in my case).
he asked: do you honestly advocate homosexual marriage and the raising of children?
i'm sayin': I'm not sure how I feel about marriage... but if straight people get to get it wrong half of the time, why not gay folks? I don't know if it's for me. the idea of possessing anyone as property and the contractual shit seems to get in the way of my notions of unconditional loving... but I do feel that the healthy and functional rearing of children has less to do with the sexual orientation of parents and more about preparation for children, self-sacrifice, and other basic principles like love, understanding, and economic stability. funny how heteros can be str8 crackheads and have a better chance of raising kids that two functional professional culturally conscientious black guys who love each other and their children.
he said: how does it work, kind of like "she hate me" but the opposite?
i'm sayin': see, you really lose points for even referencing that (Spike Lee) piece of trash. "she hate me" was the highly romanticized dreamscape of a impotent man who wants to have a harem where he can play king and dicktate "quasi-lesbian" fantasies. nothing more. any real queer person of color would have found it as ridiculously laughable and unrealistic as I did. It was an entertaining movie... to see that this is how some straight men conceptualize their sensitivity to the "gay" issue...
he said: a womans eggs are valuable! it takes nine months to make a child... would you only choose from lesbian females?
I'm sayin': 9 months??!? didn't know that. man... get outta here. personally, i plan to adopt, so this isn't relevant for me. I do know of gay men and lesbian who are deciding together to have and/or raise children. some straight people are cool enough to help with the process as well... .providing sperm or carrying a child into term with (or without) contractual parameters. children deserve committed, loving, nuturing parents. 9 months in the womb, or 9 months of a legal battle and tons of paper work and quality assurance visits... and it's hopefully a beautiful black child in the home of some loving parents. that's what's up?!?
he said: isn't that just way too much? we have so many obvious problems in the black community at home and at large that why do we need this as well? would there be more or less instances of child molestation? is child sex next? and then animal sex?
I'm sayin': you are a bit late of this as a "new" problem. it's always been an issue. i suppose you'd prefer that we continue not talking about it like black people have for the hundreds of years we've already been here on earth... but it's not new. As for child molestation, child sex and animal sex? those are catagories that I, neither a pedophile or proponent of beastiality, cannot speak to. you're heading into an illogical slippery slope here with no clear and necessary relationship between same sex desire between consenting adults to sexual acts that are non-consensual. maybe some of your hetero friends know more about child molestation or beastiality than I do?
he said: because there are people out there who think that's ok. there are people who want to fuck animals. and kids. and they do. are these people sick? where do you draw the line? what about golden showers and scatt and all that nasty business? is there a straightforward code of conduct in the homosexual arena? will the socialization of homosexuality create such a code? what about the rent boy thing? doesn't that suck (no pun intended) that youth have to submit sexually to their teachers and benefactors? it seems wrong to me and indicative of a social sickness.
i'm sayin': wow... seems you are much more informed than me about sex fetish... see these are catagorically unrelated, and not sexuality specific, so... again... there is no clear and necessary relationship to homosexuality: r kelly or woody allen might have an answer for you. I don't think that homosexuals have contributed any more to sexually deviant behavior than heterosexuals. two consenting adults who want to bum fuck is sex between consenting adults: gay or straight.
what I said last time: >lastly, I don't see how homosexuality is necessarily seen as a threat to the perpetuation of the black race. many or most black gay men and womyn I know are having and raising black children (or considering it).
he said: well, if they are raising their kids black and proud of their african heritage and with a militant mindset filled with knowledge and upholding african unity and not overtly imposing their beliefs on them (which is very hard not to do!
I'm sayin': why is it hard not to do? i was raised by hetero parents who support my decision to live my life as a gay man. why is it hard to imagine gay parents who wouldn't support straight kids. our children are not clones of us... they will come to make their own decision about how to live. we provide a foundation...which I'd hope was not grounded in what the children will come to desire sexually, but more fundamental things: culture, spirituality, heritage, education, etc... as for militancy... which is often the foundation of fundamentalism... I won't be raising any of my kids to be "militant"... rather, I want them to recognize and fight for justice, for all people.
he said: children do as you do not as you say!)
I'm sayin': well me and most of my gay friends have straight parents, so I guess that blows your argument.
he said: then i suppose it's more good then bad. would these people have two or three children and devote their time and energy to raising them adequately? many of the problems i'm citing don't have homosexuality as a sole cause. i think in general the lack of community culture and education amongst black people is leaving us out there in the wilderness for any wolf to come along and steal away with.
I'm sayin': and I'd agree with you here... thus, consider yourself a bit more educated on blacks (Afrocentric or not) who are same sex desiring. There's who afrocentric based movement where people identify as "same gender loving" as opposed to gay... as a way of marking the distinction between an afrocentric approach to same sex desire and the onslaught of media notions of gay as euro. I don't necessarily subscribe to it, but know a lot of people who are in it: rastas, yoruba clergy, black muslims, etc... people are clearly in the dark about how "gay" manifests in the African diaspora. go to any Afrocentric flea market in most urban US cities.... you'll see plenty of us, if you take the blinders off... we look just like ya'll .... for the most part. I think that's what scares ya'll so much.
he asked: let me ask you this, would you sacrifice your sexual lifestyle for africa?
I'm sayin': no. my sexual lifestyle IS african. embracing myself is embracing africa, is embracing my desire. these things are inextricable... and it's unfortunate that many of my brothas and sistahs on the continent have to struggle to do the same, in hiding and hunted down by gov't authorities. africa will never be whole until it starts to address the holes.
he said: it just doesn't add up...
I'm sayin': like most of your arguments are on some 1+1= hetero, type shit? ahhite man... i'm no calculus genius, but all i've said adds up quite well for those willing to accept the verity of variables that are the basis of my very essence.
I said before: >seems like folk trying to rationalize their hateration.
>denial and disillusionment are the enemy of collective black
>empowerment. heteros could gain a lot if they'd access the
>minds, energies, and talents of some 10+ percent of their
>population who've been reduced to half-men and half-womyn
>because they choose not to pretend to be heterosexual.
he asked: were you ever molested or improperly dealt with by an elder or a member of the white 'race'? were you just born gay? if such is the case, if you are not a product of a dangerous environment, and are just gay, then so be it.
I'm sayin': I had virtually no contact with white people until middle school. no improper dealings with elder whites. as I've suggested before... born gay, as I see it. born a perfect child of the creator. so be it. so it is. dig or not?
he said: a female ancestor born a man. it happens, i guess. if your ready to die for africa and her people, then so be it. we'll work the rest out on the other side.
i'm sayin': not a female ancestor born man.. just balanced... receiving guidance from both male and female ancestors as I tred this wilderness called North America. they've guided my steps beautifully thus far. I am a man. I am every expression of man you'd expect in a man except that I desire men like myself (masculine, resolved about their blackness and sexual identity, prepared to kick ass if it comes to that)... I do not view women as my sexual/romantic companions any longer. at one point I was succumbing to social pressures and the vast acceptabilty and comfort involved in hetero pretending. but, ultimately, i think that "pretending" causes more problems than it solves. some afrocentrist would prefer a DL African diaspora where we continue to endanger our women and blame them for our unwillingness to be truthful with ourselves. that needs to stop. Africa simply needs to come out of its constipated closet. Shit stinks in there.
he said: please hear me. i may sound over zealous, but i am honestly trying to find out the best way home. and i am willing to listen.
I'm sayin' though... finally: don't follow the yellow brick road, yo. or the any afrocentric bible. follow what you heart tells you is just and fair and right... and in the spirit of love... and you (probably) won't go wrong.
tim'm t. west
african in america, warrior, poet, emcee, revolutionary, activist, teacher, guide, griot.
*Diamonds are Coals under Pressure*
*Black Men Loving Black Men is THE Revolutionary Act!
- Marlon Riggs