*************Disclaimer, this post was made by BuildingBlock using another handle's login***********

The debate will still be archived.


would you agree or disagree with this statement?
let me know, then i'll let you know my stance and my reasons

Avi? Happy Birfday Pops!

FireBrand's
of the month: Doing her thizzle since back in the day, this pic is of her in an effort to persuade university administrators to divest from South Africa, Shawnta Watson (foreground) organized a sit-in the president's office, 1989.

Jan. 28th: Groove Theory (Final Fridays) @ Djangos OKP's Nabi and spinning downstairs, Upstairs. Free with before 1am.





_________________
Inaug'ral Member of the OkaySports Hall of Fame.

shit. Like, when someone asks a question, another person offers an answer. That's usually how this thang starts.

But I feel u tho. U on West Coast time, aint you?

put down that fatburger and respond dammit!!!

Inquiring minds want to know exactly how homosexuality creates disease within the Afrikan conciousness.


HOLLA!!!


Avi? Happy Birfday Pops!

FireBrand's
of the month: Doing her thizzle since back in the day, this pic is of her in an effort to persuade university administrators to divest from South Africa, Shawnta Watson (foreground) organized a sit-in the president's office, 1989.

Jan. 28th: Groove Theory (Final Fridays) @ Djangos OKP's Nabi and spinning downstairs, Upstairs. Free with before 1am.





_________________
Inaug'ral Member of the OkaySports Hall of Fame.

.

Avi? Happy Birfday Pops!

FireBrand's
of the month: Doing her thizzle since back in the day, this pic is of her in an effort to persuade university administrators to divest from South Africa, Shawnta Watson (foreground) organized a sit-in the president's office, 1989.

Jan. 28th: Groove Theory (Final Fridays) @ Djangos OKP's Nabi and spinning downstairs, Upstairs. Free with before 1am.





_________________
Inaug'ral Member of the OkaySports Hall of Fame.

like lying doesn't.

How do you know what is inheritley (sp?) Afrikan?
How do you know that it wasn't a point of discourse?
How do you know how it was dealt with from society to society?

Was there any room for interpretation?

Or do you mean these things aren't good for ANY society? Why aren't they, exactly?

I'm sayin...


Avi? Happy Birfday Pops!

FireBrand's
of the month: Doing her thizzle since back in the day, this pic is of her in an effort to persuade university administrators to divest from South Africa, Shawnta Watson (foreground) organized a sit-in the president's office, 1989.

Jan. 28th: Groove Theory (Final Fridays) @ Djangos OKP's Nabi and spinning downstairs, Upstairs. Free with before 1am.





_________________
Inaug'ral Member of the OkaySports Hall of Fame.

>would you agree or disagree with this statement?
>let me know, then i'll let you know my stance and my reasons

You are 100% correct. Homosexuality is not for an Afrikan-centered individual.

period.end of story.

wasnt it? I'ma revist this post in the morning.

damn I was ready to learn some ish. You gonna force me to spend money on a book?

u aint right.

Avi? Happy Birfday Pops!

FireBrand's
of the month: Doing her thizzle since back in the day, this pic is of her in an effort to persuade university administrators to divest from South Africa, Shawnta Watson (foreground) organized a sit-in the president's office, 1989.

Jan. 28th: Groove Theory (Final Fridays) @ Djangos OKP's Nabi and spinning downstairs, Upstairs. Free with before 1am.





_________________
Inaug'ral Member of the OkaySports Hall of Fame.

Uta would jump at the opportunity to answer simple, non argumentative questions.

ya'll can cease a disist. cus aint shit gonna come of this post but ill will at this point.


Avi? Happy Birfday Pops!

FireBrand's
of the month: Doing her thizzle since back in the day, this pic is of her in an effort to persuade university administrators to divest from South Africa, Shawnta Watson (foreground) organized a sit-in the president's office, 1989.

Jan. 28th: Groove Theory (Final Fridays) @ Djangos OKP's Nabi and spinning downstairs, Upstairs. Free with before 1am.





_________________
Inaug'ral Member of the OkaySports Hall of Fame.

truth is, er'body ain't hetero. it's against our tradition but it ain't bad.

?

>truth is, er'body ain't hetero. it's against our tradition
>but it ain't bad.


What's not bad about it? Men fear men. European men fear Afrikan men, not afrikan half-men.

these catz really kill me, yo.

they talk about Africa like it's a block in SE DC or somethin. LOL. And even folk in SE DC recognize that phaggots and dykes always been a part of the family.

what did molife suggest? sacrifice the feeling for the collective family? therefore acknowledging the "feeling" in the first place. the only thing that is core African on this board is the delusion of some phantasmatic African wholeness, some uninterupted pre-colonial unity, some nostalgic hyper-romantic king sittin on throne being fed grapes by his wimmins.

nigga please.
I'm go marry me a half-man and create a whole family.

BTW.... many or most okayblackphaggsanddykes have read the whole of Diop, Asante, Welsing.... gone to African-centered schools, studied everything from Pan-African philosophy and Negritude to Afrocentrism.... and critically, i might add

so save the tutorial for your closeted boyz, dawg.


25
www.deepdickollective.com
www.reddirt.biz


*I want to teach lil negro homos how to bust mofos in the lip when they trip*
- anonymous faggot emcee.

*Diamonds are Coals under Pressure*
-Lorraine Hansberry

*Black Men Loving Black Men is THE Revolutionary Act!
- Marlon Riggs

>these catz really kill me, yo.
>
>they talk about Africa like it's a block in SE DC or
>somethin. LOL. And even folk in SE DC recognize that
>phaggots and dykes always been a part of the family.
>
>what did molife suggest? sacrifice the feeling for the
>collective family? therefore acknowledging the "feeling" in
>the first place. the only thing that is core African on
>this board is the delusion of some phantasmatic African
>wholeness, some uninterupted pre-colonial unity, some
>nostalgic hyper-romantic king sittin on throne being fed
>grapes by his wimmins.
>
>nigga please.
>I'm go marry me a half-man and create a whole family.
>
>BTW.... many or most okayblackphaggsanddykes have read the
>whole of Diop, Asante, Welsing.... gone to African-centered
>schools, studied everything from Pan-African philosophy and
>Negritude to Afrocentrism.... and critically, i might add
>
>so save the tutorial for your closeted boyz, dawg.
>
>
>25
>www.deepdickollective.com
>www.reddirt.biz
>
>
>*I want to teach lil negro homos how to bust mofos in the
>lip when they trip*
>- anonymous faggot emcee.
>
>*Diamonds are Coals under Pressure*
>-Lorraine Hansberry
>
>*Black Men Loving Black Men is THE Revolutionary Act!
>- Marlon Riggs

Obviously I have offended you are someone you care about that leads a deviant sexstlye. If you are offended, maybe you look at your actions.

are gay and/or lesbian....

so you haven't offended me (who is a black man who loves black men) in the least. i just think you haven't been exposed to the global LGBTQ African-diaspora movement. And it ain't run by Ellen, that's for sure.. LOL

one.


25
www.deepdickollective.com


*I want to teach lil negro homos how to bust mofos in the lip when they trip*
- anonymous faggot emcee.

*Diamonds are Coals under Pressure*
-Lorraine Hansberry

*Black Men Loving Black Men is THE Revolutionary Act!
- Marlon Riggs

>are gay and/or lesbian....
>
>so you haven't offended me (who is a black man who loves
>black men) in the least. i just think you haven't been
>exposed to the global LGBTQ African-diaspora movement. And
>it ain't run by Ellen, that's for sure.. LOL
>
>>
>

You can't be "Africentric" and be a homo. You are no longer an Afrikan male, you are an European female.

VERY quickly.

denial is a bitch, aint it?

If I'm a european female then you, my favorite new afrocentrist, are an embryo.

your splitting logic would seem to suggest this is the case.


the last african.


25
www.deepdickollective.com
www.reddirt.biz


*I want to teach lil negro homos how to bust mofos in the lip when they trip*
- anonymous faggot emcee.

*Diamonds are Coals under Pressure*
-Lorraine Hansberry

*Black Men Loving Black Men is THE Revolutionary Act!
- Marlon Riggs

except for me, my fingers were crossed *no contact*

******************************
http://profiles.myspace.com/users/1281849
******************************
"me as a black man will not
stand here and allow you to
talk dumb shit about white
women that simply is not true"
SouthPhillyMan

"If I see things unseen by
those who have eyes, why
should my wisest speech not
be silence?"
-Ayi Kwei Armah

Well, for me exile means
separation from people I love.
I didn't, and don't
miss the U.S., per se. But
black culture, black life in
the U.S., that African
American flavor, I
definitely miss. The
language, the movements, the
style, I get nostalgic about
that.
-Assata Shakur

>except for me, my fingers were crossed *no contact* Hey,


it's your reality. I'm not judgin, but why cut yourself? Wherever you go, there you are. We are all reflections of your Beautiful mind, oh Okayplayer

Do whatever you want with whoever you want. You can at least count on the fact that Okayplayers in general don't appear to be snitches.

(SEE SCENT OF A WOMAN, the Pacino movie)

all humans are bisexual

NIGHTLY REPORTS ON MY
OKAYPLAYER EXPLORATIONS on my
blog (updated during the day, and
then finished at 11PM EST)

PEACE,
Christopher (the name means
"Raspberry")

Google "Chris Defendorf ",
"Christopher Defendorf" and/or
chrisdefendorf
remember to put in quotes.
http://profiles.myspace.com/users/10450673

OK. How many of you are from Africa? I mean 1st or 2nd generation even. We have to start facing facts that we don't even know where we are from. Most of us at least. Africa is pretty freakin' big.... How do we know how they feel about homosexuality. Are there no gays in Africa? Is there some new info I haven't gotten?

Basically, any hate that gets put out there is bad. If someone isn't messing with you, leave them alone.

Plus, we got too many babies in the world anyway. I could go on, but I doubt I'll change anyone's mind.

>OK. How many of you are from Africa?

I wasn't born in Africa, Africa was born in me.

sigh

>sigh

PEACE,
Christopher
Official Whiteboy"?, WORD.

http://profiles.myspace.com/users/
10450673

Yo don't quote Chuck D and not expect me to play Sample Cop. That's all I'm saying, cutie.

PEACE,
Christopher
Official Whiteboy"?, WORD.
Google "Chris Defendorf "and/or
chrisdefendorf
http://profiles.myspace.com/users/
10450673

I never heard of Homosexuals crossing oceans to convert Africans...

Surely Islam and Christianity were pretty devastating to African traditional religions...

but today you got so many people confused about it I even had a instructor talking about having homosexual societies was African of course since he was a homosexual he had to get his agenda across.

LMAO.

know where you stand and you are a grown man I ain't going to try to change your mind.

oh and thanks for reminding me that i'm grown cuz sometimes i forget.

just answer the question.

black conservatives....
and is a homophobe....

so let it go. one of those progressive niggas that are selectively and ironically progressive.

________________________________________

*I want to teach lil negro homos how to bust mofos in the lip when they trip*
- anonymous faggot emcee.

*Diamonds are Coals under Pressure*
-Lorraine Hansberry

*Black Men Loving Black Men is THE Revolutionary Act!
- Marlon Riggs

it's fun.

is used too much and I don't fear you because you are gay ass clown.

Just because I believe homosexuality isn't something that should be embraced in our culture I have to love conservatives suck a dick(no pun intended).

dude you know damn well that you no one is saying you have a clinical condition, where folks have a fear specific things or anxiety. those are the "phobia" you're referencing (claustrophobia, arachnaphobia, etc).

homophobia is a NON-CLINICAL phobia, in the same light as xenophobia. folks have a irrational fear/hatred/dislike of a GROUP because of political, social, religious, etc beliefs. (i say hatred/dislike because "philia," which means "love of," is the antonym of "phobia.")

now, how is this NOT homophobic:
>I believe homosexuality isn't something that
>should be embraced in our culture
?

what's the rational basis for this?

There's apart where our mutal admiration for the double-f resonates beautifully.

America (a state of Mind)

>but today you got so many people confused about it I even
>had a instructor talking about having homosexual societies
>was African of course since he was a homosexual he had to
>get his agenda across.

That European clone is a part of the homosexual mafia that tries to rationalize and normalize their perverted and deviant sexual practices.

[]

He is a lost Afrikan who is emulating a European sexstyle.

[]

Originality is not the point - truth is.

how is what you're saying less clone-like? and how is it "truth"? what level of certainty do you have? what do you know about Taharka's instructor's so-called "sexstyle" and how do you know that it really differs from anything afrikan?

isn't his instructor's sexual identity a political choice anyways?

>how is what you're saying less clone-like? and how is it
>"truth"? what level of certainty do you have? what do you
>know about Taharka's instructor's so-called "sexstyle" and
>how do you know that it really differs from anything
>afrikan?

I Have a knowledge of self and I am an Afrikan-centered person. I don't deal with opinions, I deal with facts.

>
>isn't his instructor's sexual identity a political choice
>anyways?

What is political about sleeping with the same sex. Homosexuality for Afrikans is genocidal.

ummm OKAY!

are you suggesting that sex (despite the participants) is not a political act and doesn't have political ramifications?

if that is what you're saying then how do you make your claim about genocide?

Ren & Jam Master Jay want it.

Yo, remeber, Grasshopper, only true practice meaks a real Jammaste

Namaste:Jammaste

Look, God doesnt care if you're gay. it's like Napster, it's in the best int3erest of BIOLOGY...

if everybkdy's thinking about fucking, then somebodys' gonna get a bun in the oven

thus my sig |
|
V

*I want to teach lil negro homos how to bust mofos in the lip when they trip*
- anonymous faggot emcee.

...

yes!

>yes!

As a feminist, what are you out to accomplish?

------------------------------

“All the scared niggers are dead” – Stokely Carmichael

like with something kinda like a cross with legs or something? before we start, i just want to make sure i'm wearing something snazzy.

I am Jack's "CHEAT."in' heart.

cehat

cteas
TEACH
eact!


"CHEAT!",
Christopher
Official Whiteboy"?, WORD.

http://profiles.myspace.com/users/10450673

No. Lying about who you are hurts african spirituality. Who you have sex with has nothing to do with your ability to progress as an individual.

anytime you're Afrocentric belief systems are aligned with the barrage of heternormative anglo perpetuation of global white supremacy, then you should check yourself....

25
www.deepdickollective.com


*I want to teach lil negro homos how to bust mofos in the lip when they trip*
- anonymous faggot emcee.

*Diamonds are Coals under Pressure*
-Lorraine Hansberry

*Black Men Loving Black Men is THE Revolutionary Act!
- Marlon Riggs

PieE,
Christopher
Official Whiteboy"?, WORD.
Google "Chris Defendorf "and/or
chrisdefendorf
http://profiles.myspace.com/users/
10450673

Next thing the white blued eyed Jesus will be posting in this thread.


Lookin out for Jesus

is bad for my African spirituality.

how about that?!


25
www.deepdickollective.com

_______________________

*I want to teach lil negro homos how to bust mofos in the lip when they trip*
- anonymous faggot emcee.

*Diamonds are Coals under Pressure*
-Lorraine Hansberry

*Black Men Loving Black Men is THE Revolutionary Act!
- Marlon Riggs

n/m

>is bad for my African spirituality.
>
>how about that?!
>
>*Diamonds are Coals under Pressure*
>-Lorraine Hansberry
>The above name samples the word "Raspberry". Which I;ve used over and over and over. How'd you do it?

it seems like we are trying for a mojority rules political oppinion so that no one has to apply critical thought to the existance of a thing until it becomes an accepted custom.

for me it boils down to this, if you believe in a european eugenic agenda advancing a eurocentric global hegemony on the planet, which can only be sustained by keeping indiginous populations in check, by hook or by crook, then homosexuality can be lumped in with aids and 'family planning' as a factor preciptiating the downfall of the viability of the breeding population of these peoples.

it is another level of conflict, where one culture will breed the other out. in a 'democratic' system, you need the majority to establish political power, after which you can control the minority group.

for instance, in new zealand, the invading force purposefully imported women who were fertile and hearty to establish the colony, and even though, for the most part, they were fought to a standstill by the maori in the past, now, because they have numerical superiority, they can subtly pass legislation that can slowly erode any and every maori land right and right to self determination. because they are outnumbered.

it has been laid out in clear english in the eugenic doctorines of the late 1800's and early 1900's in the work of many prominent european's that eugenics is an agenda, and only after the embarrasing behavior of their poster boy hitler, was it forced to adopt a more underground stance. this stance did not lessen their commitment to the agenda. and may have made it more effective.

in this context, homesexuality of african peoples can be seen as a negative thing. as it limits the breeding ability of the child bearing age population. although the question was the spiritual, many if not most spiritual taboos are based around holding together a community, which entails rituals such as marriage and monogamy in an area of limited resources.

for all the talk about birth control, now some european countries and japan are actually offering cash incentives to get their young women to bear more children. the most immediate concern is the ageing population. if a certain amount of people, the 'baby boomers' reach retirement age, it leaves a deficit to be filled by an equally large group of youth, needed to support them.

so you get a sort of confused logic. especially in regards to indiginous and immigrant or simply 'people of color' who are encouraged not to immigrate or have children, while they encourage their children to? it's only confused if you are an idiot. there is a clear ethnocentric agenda.

however, to add balance to the picture, i would introduce a concept that i am trying to understand in the pacific, which may add credence to the aformentioned information, or rather to a hypothesis that homosexuality negatively impacts the breeding population in reference to available resources (or in a situation where there are two groups in conflict over a similar resource).

enter the fa'afafine...

http://www.abc.net.au/ra/pacific/people/hazy.htm

to paraphrase, in a samoan family of all boys, sometimes the youngest boy will be raised as a girl to help the mother. they dress as a girl because what they are doing is womens work. this does not mean that they are homosexual, as in many cases when they grow up they still marry a woman and go on to have children.

why this sort of backs my hyothesis is that it usually occurs in families with all boys, but i haven't worked out where this fits into the idea that homosexuality comes from europe (greece). it doesn't neccesarilly mean that africans had or did not have homosexuality, or socialized homosexuality, but here is evidence of a socialized homosexuality in a group with mixed micro and melanesian heritage.

i guess i don't think that homosexuality is good for black people in our current condition. i also am not for hyper sexual music videos or overzealous infidelity. i think it is possible to be sexual and loving, but i have found that abstinence before marriage and the idea of families integrating into eachother through marriage is fairly valid.

i'm not overzealous in my beliefs. but i'm not going to jump on any bandwagon hollering 'go gay go!'. metro sexual is perplexing to me. and in general, i'm trying to be living proof that you don't have to alienate or demonize anyone, and still can go on to have beautifull black babies that i will raise and love and will eventually end up strengthening black people by virtue of mind (training) body (healthy living) and soul (love of the most high, the universe).

i think that anything in the media is questionable. it serves a very hidden and dubious agenda. it is the coloseum complete with gladiators and orgies. it pushes the lowest common denominator while the tyrants erode the rights and livelihood of the people.

i hope this doesn't seem like a levelled attack at homosexuality. i'm open to discussion. i don't think 'god hates fags' or what have you. i mentioned the fa'afine because my understanding or idea of homosexuality was altered when i learned of them. and they do exist.

i will bring up that their life in a european context like new zealand is not an enviable one. often they end up turning tricks on the street and beating the shit out of skin heads and drunkards who try to mess with them. the most frightening gangsters to me are the 7 foot tall 289lbs samoan men in 6inch heels on the street around the corner from where i used to live, and i'm like "what's up dude, how you doing? naw, i'm cool, stay strong brother..."

ok?

nor is gender non-conformity homosexuality.
nor are homosexuals unable to breed.

your post seems to clump a lot of very different things into one category... and same sex desire has to be examine in its specific cultural context. It's like Essex Hemphill (RIP, warrior) said about Afrocentrists looking at the absence of rainbow flags in ghana or senegal as evidence that homosexuality doesn't exist there. the lens through which they "recognize" same sex desire is clouded by european norms. the real question is: what are the various ways sexual diversity manifest in African diasporic communities.... and there'd be several answers, and several different examples. But that it exist everywhere in the diaspora is undeniable. just because the government or religion doesn't sanction somethign doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

lastly, I don't see how homosexuality is necessarily seen as a threat to the perpetuation of the black race. many or most black gay men and womyn I know are having and raising black children (or considering it).

it just doesn't add up...

seems like folk trying to rationalize their hateration. denial and disillusionment are the enemy of collective black empowerment. heteros could gain a lot if they'd access the minds, energies, and talents of some 10+ percent of their population who've been reduced to half-men and half-womyn because they choose not to pretend to be heterosexual.

my twenty-five sense,


25
www.deepdickollective.com



*I want to teach lil negro homos how to bust mofos in the lip when they trip*
- anonymous faggot emcee.

*Diamonds are Coals under Pressure*
-Lorraine Hansberry

*Black Men Loving Black Men is THE Revolutionary Act!
- Marlon Riggs

>nor is gender non-conformity homosexuality.
>nor are homosexuals unable to breed.

yes. i was more identifying the source of the taboo and a culture that isn't greek or roman that had homosexuality. in new zealand, again, fa-afafine people tend to end up all out gay and pimping themselves. i see the current manifestation of mass media gay orgie irrsesponisble sex and drug consumption as a hard core escapist symptoms of very real depression. you don't have that in samoa pre colonialism. would you define homosexuality as the desire to engage in sexual acts with others of the same sex and that alone? for men, is homosexuality when you want to stick you penis into another mans bum and vice versa? on a very basic level i object. if you want to argue that anything is unclean, anal sex is unclean. animal sex, child sex, bum sex. not clean. i think it's great to love your friends, but i don't see the physical consumation of that love as anything more then severely damaging, and in the case of men, illogical. and that's what homosexuality is. bum sex with other dudes. no bum sex. i think that bum sex is demeaning. i know that i can get more physical spiritual and mental enjoyment from a game of basket ball or a musical jam then sex with anything or anyone. and i think that's the problem. trying too hard to impose my life style on others to their detriment. i think the over politcizing of homosexuality would be to the detriment of black people and thus damaging to african spirituality... although if we can make it through crack, cointel pro, and 400 years of slavery, maybe this too is just another test to triumph over.

on the other hand, i know some people who are just gay.

but look at this. in a gay parent house hold, there is an increased chance that the child will 'choose' homosexuality as a lifestyle. i think it drives another wedge into the rift between man and woman in the black family. i understand what gays are pushing for. if they were not discriminated against, perhaps they wouldn't have a wounded spirituality. or be physically wounded/threatened with impunity on the part of their attackers.

do you honestly advocate homosexual marriage and the raising of children? how does it work, kind of like she hate me but the opposite? a womans eggs are valuable! it takes nine months to make a child... would you only choose from lesbian females? isn't that just way too much? we have so many obvious problems in the black community at home and at large that why do we need this as well? would there be more or less instances of child molestation? is child sex next? and then animal sex? because there are people out there who think that's ok. there are people who want to fuck animals. and kids. and they do. are these people sick? where do you draw the line? what about golden showers and scatt and all that nasty business? is there a straightforward code of conduct in the homosexual arena? will the socialization of homosexuality create such a code? what about the rent boy thing? doesn't that suck (no pun intended) that youth have to submit sexually to their teachers and benefactors? it seems wrong to me and indicative of a social sickness.



>lastly, I don't see how homosexuality is necessarily seen as
>a threat to the perpetuation of the black race. many or
>most black gay men and womyn I know are having and raising
>black children (or considering it).

well, if they are raising their kids black and proud of their african heritage and with a militant mindset filled with knowledge and upholding african unity and not overtly imposing their beliefs on them (which is very hard not to do! children do as you do not as you say!) then i suppose it's more good then bad. would these people have two or three children and devote their time and energy to raising them adequately? many of the problems i'm citing don't have homosexuality as a sole cause. i think in general the lack of community culture and education amongst black people is leaving us out there in the wilderness for any wolf to come along and steal away with.

let me ask you this, would you sacrifice your sexual lifestyle for africa?

>
>it just doesn't add up...
>
>seems like folk trying to rationalize their hateration.
>denial and disillusionment are the enemy of collective black
>empowerment. heteros could gain a lot if they'd access the
>minds, energies, and talents of some 10+ percent of their
>population who've been reduced to half-men and half-womyn
>because they choose not to pretend to be heterosexual.
>

were you ever molested or improperly dealt with by an elder or a member of the white 'race'? were you just born gay? if such is the case, if you are not a product of a dangerous environment, and are just gay, then so be it. a female ancestor born a man. it happens, i guess. if your ready to die for africa and her people, then so be it. we'll work the rest out on the other side.

>my twenty-five sense,

please hear me. i may sound over zealous, but i am honestly trying to find out the best way home. and i am willing to listen.

ok!

responding to these comments (which are intended for people generally, so not referencing "him" specifically, but rather a "he" to give context to my responses:

_________________________________

he said: yes. i was more identifying the source of the taboo and a culture that isn't greek or roman that had homosexuality. in new zealand, again, fa-afafine people tend to end up all out gay and pimping themselves. i see the current manifestation of mass media gay orgie irrsesponisble sex and drug consumption as a hard core escapist symptoms of very real depression. you don't have that in samoa pre colonialism.

I'm sayin: you don't have mass media and a drug "industry" in pre-colonial anythign?!? I wont' point out which logical flaw this is, but the analogy doesn't hold piss.

he said: would you define homosexuality as the desire to engage in sexual acts with others of the same sex and that alone?

I'm sayin: I'll only speak for myself, since I think it's a range of things for different people. there is no singular source for same sex desire. as for me, it speaks to my emotional desire for romantic companionship with men (with or without sex, but generally leading to sex, as it is, as it is for heteros, the consumate expression of romantic love between two adults). the sex act alone does not establish sexual identity. I know plenty of straight men who suck a dick now and then, but they are not "gay" because they don't identify with the sexual identity...they only indulge the act. and I think it's an important distinction. Also... i didn't have homesex until I was 19. i knew I was gay as early as 5. most straight know they are straight long before the first sexual act. it works the same way.

he said: for men, is homosexuality when you want to stick you penis into another mans bum and vice versa? on a very basic level i object.

i'm sayin: thanks for sharing. I'll consider your objection for a nanosecond when I'm out getting my mack on.

he said: if you want to argue that anything is unclean, anal sex is unclean. animal sex, child sex, bum sex. not clean.

i'm sayin': sex, you could argue, is unclean. bums can be cleaned, as the vagina must be cleaned. cleanliness is a very, very good thing... unless you've had a bad experience and are speaking first hand. i been diggin boys (pun intended) for some 15 years, and have (generally) not dealt with unclean bums. when there is an issue, it can be quickly and respectably resolved. all asses should be regularly washed: gay, straight, male, female... Also, anal sex is not exclusive to homosexuals. many, many, many straight people love it.

he said: i think it's great to love your friends, but i don't see the physical consumation of that love as anything more then severely damaging, and in the case of men, illogical. and that's what homosexuality is. bum sex with other dudes. no bum sex. i think that bum sex is demeaning.

i'm sayin': your phrasing here is very suspicious. illogical is your transition from one statement to the next, not the homosex between friends. what is heterosexual marriage if not sex between friends (I'd hope)? maybe that explains the divorce rate.

he said: i know that i can get more physical spiritual and mental enjoyment from a game of basket ball or a musical jam then sex with anything or anyone.

I'm sayin': I could agree with you here. homosex is not tantamount to my self-concept or identity, except for the ways that heteronormative culture and its enthusiasts impose their traditons and belief on my kind. i would prefer a romantic and sexual life that wasn't politicized. unfortunately, people like you make that difficult.

he said: and i think that's the problem. trying too hard to impose my life style on others to their detriment. i think the over politcizing of homosexuality would be to the detriment of black people and thus damaging to african spirituality... although if we can make it through crack, cointel pro, and 400 years of slavery, maybe this too is just another test to triumph over.

i'm sayin': so we shouldn't politicize blackness or africanness either, right? so politicizing of identity is just plain wrong? again, the politicization of identity is often the reaction to identity oppression, and that alone. when I'm with a group of folks who ain't trippin on my liking guys, I'm not thinking.. who am I gonna have to bust in the face... i'm cool. it's not until someone gets testy that I start to have violent thoughts.. LOL. (i'm just kidding...maybe.... ) but the point is, my gayness, like my blackness are beautiful and perfect, as they are... until around people who question this... and I can choose to internalize the majority opinions about blackness or gayness... or love them both. I am proud of my gayness BECAUSE I am a proud black man... an honest man, a man of integrity, a man who believes in truth... i ain't goin go out like no punk/ LOL

he said: on the other hand, i know some people who are just gay.

i'm sayin': like me?

he said: but look at this. in a gay parent house hold, there is an increased chance that the child will 'choose' homosexuality as a lifestyle.

i'm sayin: actually studies suggest otherwise. there IS an increased chance that children won't feel like they will be ostracized, kicked out of the home, these children will likely be less prone to suicide, if gay. hey... I was born to heterosexuals (I think... I actually haven't asked them about their sexual orientation...and we tend to assume, perhaps wrongly, that our parents are, necessarily, straight).

he said: i think it drives another wedge into the rift between man and woman in the black family. i understand what gays are pushing for. if they were not discriminated against, perhaps they wouldn't have a wounded spirituality. or be physically wounded/threatened with impunity on the part of their attackers.

i'm sayin': i think you have no idea what gays are pushing for. see...there are a lot of us... and there is no single agenda... because a lot of us don't agree with each other... or have differing beliefs and values..... you should understand this, being of african descent. gays, in some ways, are like black people.... we use the (blanket) term as a convenient mechanism for political or cultural solidarity, but blackness, like gayness, signifies different things to the vast number of people who identify as such (respectively and/or simultaneously... as in my case).

he asked: do you honestly advocate homosexual marriage and the raising of children?

i'm sayin': I'm not sure how I feel about marriage... but if straight people get to get it wrong half of the time, why not gay folks? I don't know if it's for me. the idea of possessing anyone as property and the contractual shit seems to get in the way of my notions of unconditional loving... but I do feel that the healthy and functional rearing of children has less to do with the sexual orientation of parents and more about preparation for children, self-sacrifice, and other basic principles like love, understanding, and economic stability. funny how heteros can be str8 crackheads and have a better chance of raising kids that two functional professional culturally conscientious black guys who love each other and their children.

he said: how does it work, kind of like "she hate me" but the opposite?

i'm sayin': see, you really lose points for even referencing that (Spike Lee) piece of trash. "she hate me" was the highly romanticized dreamscape of a impotent man who wants to have a harem where he can play king and dicktate "quasi-lesbian" fantasies. nothing more. any real queer person of color would have found it as ridiculously laughable and unrealistic as I did. It was an entertaining movie... to see that this is how some straight men conceptualize their sensitivity to the "gay" issue...

he said: a womans eggs are valuable! it takes nine months to make a child... would you only choose from lesbian females?

I'm sayin': 9 months??!? didn't know that. man... get outta here. personally, i plan to adopt, so this isn't relevant for me. I do know of gay men and lesbian who are deciding together to have and/or raise children. some straight people are cool enough to help with the process as well... .providing sperm or carrying a child into term with (or without) contractual parameters. children deserve committed, loving, nuturing parents. 9 months in the womb, or 9 months of a legal battle and tons of paper work and quality assurance visits... and it's hopefully a beautiful black child in the home of some loving parents. that's what's up?!?

he said: isn't that just way too much? we have so many obvious problems in the black community at home and at large that why do we need this as well? would there be more or less instances of child molestation? is child sex next? and then animal sex?

I'm sayin': you are a bit late of this as a "new" problem. it's always been an issue. i suppose you'd prefer that we continue not talking about it like black people have for the hundreds of years we've already been here on earth... but it's not new. As for child molestation, child sex and animal sex? those are catagories that I, neither a pedophile or proponent of beastiality, cannot speak to. you're heading into an illogical slippery slope here with no clear and necessary relationship between same sex desire between consenting adults to sexual acts that are non-consensual. maybe some of your hetero friends know more about child molestation or beastiality than I do?

he said: because there are people out there who think that's ok. there are people who want to fuck animals. and kids. and they do. are these people sick? where do you draw the line? what about golden showers and scatt and all that nasty business? is there a straightforward code of conduct in the homosexual arena? will the socialization of homosexuality create such a code? what about the rent boy thing? doesn't that suck (no pun intended) that youth have to submit sexually to their teachers and benefactors? it seems wrong to me and indicative of a social sickness.

i'm sayin': wow... seems you are much more informed than me about sex fetish... see these are catagorically unrelated, and not sexuality specific, so... again... there is no clear and necessary relationship to homosexuality: r kelly or woody allen might have an answer for you. I don't think that homosexuals have contributed any more to sexually deviant behavior than heterosexuals. two consenting adults who want to bum fuck is sex between consenting adults: gay or straight.

what I said last time: >lastly, I don't see how homosexuality is necessarily seen as a threat to the perpetuation of the black race. many or most black gay men and womyn I know are having and raising black children (or considering it).

he said: well, if they are raising their kids black and proud of their african heritage and with a militant mindset filled with knowledge and upholding african unity and not overtly imposing their beliefs on them (which is very hard not to do!

I'm sayin': why is it hard not to do? i was raised by hetero parents who support my decision to live my life as a gay man. why is it hard to imagine gay parents who wouldn't support straight kids. our children are not clones of us... they will come to make their own decision about how to live. we provide a foundation...which I'd hope was not grounded in what the children will come to desire sexually, but more fundamental things: culture, spirituality, heritage, education, etc... as for militancy... which is often the foundation of fundamentalism... I won't be raising any of my kids to be "militant"... rather, I want them to recognize and fight for justice, for all people.

he said: children do as you do not as you say!)

I'm sayin': well me and most of my gay friends have straight parents, so I guess that blows your argument.

he said: then i suppose it's more good then bad. would these people have two or three children and devote their time and energy to raising them adequately? many of the problems i'm citing don't have homosexuality as a sole cause. i think in general the lack of community culture and education amongst black people is leaving us out there in the wilderness for any wolf to come along and steal away with.

I'm sayin': and I'd agree with you here... thus, consider yourself a bit more educated on blacks (Afrocentric or not) who are same sex desiring. There's who afrocentric based movement where people identify as "same gender loving" as opposed to gay... as a way of marking the distinction between an afrocentric approach to same sex desire and the onslaught of media notions of gay as euro. I don't necessarily subscribe to it, but know a lot of people who are in it: rastas, yoruba clergy, black muslims, etc... people are clearly in the dark about how "gay" manifests in the African diaspora. go to any Afrocentric flea market in most urban US cities.... you'll see plenty of us, if you take the blinders off... we look just like ya'll .... for the most part. I think that's what scares ya'll so much.

he asked: let me ask you this, would you sacrifice your sexual lifestyle for africa?

I'm sayin': no. my sexual lifestyle IS african. embracing myself is embracing africa, is embracing my desire. these things are inextricable... and it's unfortunate that many of my brothas and sistahs on the continent have to struggle to do the same, in hiding and hunted down by gov't authorities. africa will never be whole until it starts to address the holes.

he said: it just doesn't add up...

I'm sayin': like most of your arguments are on some 1+1= hetero, type shit? ahhite man... i'm no calculus genius, but all i've said adds up quite well for those willing to accept the verity of variables that are the basis of my very essence.

I said before: >seems like folk trying to rationalize their hateration.
>denial and disillusionment are the enemy of collective black
>empowerment. heteros could gain a lot if they'd access the
>minds, energies, and talents of some 10+ percent of their
>population who've been reduced to half-men and half-womyn
>because they choose not to pretend to be heterosexual.
>

he asked: were you ever molested or improperly dealt with by an elder or a member of the white 'race'? were you just born gay? if such is the case, if you are not a product of a dangerous environment, and are just gay, then so be it.

I'm sayin': I had virtually no contact with white people until middle school. no improper dealings with elder whites. as I've suggested before... born gay, as I see it. born a perfect child of the creator. so be it. so it is. dig or not?

he said: a female ancestor born a man. it happens, i guess. if your ready to die for africa and her people, then so be it. we'll work the rest out on the other side.

i'm sayin': not a female ancestor born man.. just balanced... receiving guidance from both male and female ancestors as I tred this wilderness called North America. they've guided my steps beautifully thus far. I am a man. I am every expression of man you'd expect in a man except that I desire men like myself (masculine, resolved about their blackness and sexual identity, prepared to kick ass if it comes to that)... I do not view women as my sexual/romantic companions any longer. at one point I was succumbing to social pressures and the vast acceptabilty and comfort involved in hetero pretending. but, ultimately, i think that "pretending" causes more problems than it solves. some afrocentrist would prefer a DL African diaspora where we continue to endanger our women and blame them for our unwillingness to be truthful with ourselves. that needs to stop. Africa simply needs to come out of its constipated closet. Shit stinks in there.

he said: please hear me. i may sound over zealous, but i am honestly trying to find out the best way home. and i am willing to listen.

I'm sayin' though... finally: don't follow the yellow brick road, yo. or the any afrocentric bible. follow what you heart tells you is just and fair and right... and in the spirit of love... and you (probably) won't go wrong.

peace.


tim'm t. west
african in america, warrior, poet, emcee, revolutionary, activist, teacher, guide, griot.

sex for the most part is a chosen lifestyle. The same as heterosexual sex. No one has to have sex. Sex is a choice.


>I'm sayin: I'll only speak for myself, since I think it's a
>range of things for different people. there is no singular
>source for same sex desire.

I agree with you on this.

>as for me, it speaks to my emotional desire for romantic >companionship with men (with or without sex, but generally >leading to sex, as it is, as it is for heteros, the consumate >expression of romantic love between two adults).

Romantic and romance is bull. Romance and Romantic do not equate to sex. You can have a strong love for many people in your life. That does not mean you have to have sex with them to express that love. There are a lot a gay and lesbian people who have a strong emotional loving relationship with members of the opposite sex. Why is there no consumation there to express that love?

>the sex act alone does not establish
>sexual identity. I know plenty of straight men who suck a
>dick now and then, but they are not "gay" because they don't
>identify with the sexual identity...they only indulge the
>act. and I think it's an important distinction.

This is bull. How can a man be straight and suck dick? To indulge in the act of murder makes one a murderer does it not? To undulge in the act of stealing makes one a thief does it not? To indulge in the act of swimming makes one a swimmer does it not? Most homosexuals for the most part I think are confused. Confused in that they think that sex is the ultimate expression of a strong emotional attachment to someone. I think it is a very complicated psychological issue.


>Also... i didn't have homesex until I was 19. i knew I was >gay as early as 5. most straight know they are straight long
>before the first sexual act. it works the same way.

This 5 stuff I find hard to believe. And why is it that most gay or lesbian say this same exact age of this dawning of sexual knowledge? I have four children 3 five and older. At five they have no idea and not even thinking about sexual orientation as to weather they like boys or girls for a sexual preference. You were confused. Some where along the line you felt a strong emotional attachment to another boy and somehow got it in your head that it can only mean you are gay. It's ok to have a love for members of the same sex. That does not make you gay. To have sex with them to express that love does make you gay and that is your choice. After all I'm sure we all have strong love for some family members parents, brothers, sisters, aunts, cousins, and uncles but don't choose to have sex with them to express that love.

-----------------

Opinions are like assholes.

"...you cats are undercover like GAY rappers dealing with MYSTERY." -Talib Kweli This means you, from Reflection Eternal

"I don't blame Tiger Woods, but I overstand the mental poison that's even worse than drugs" -nas poison

"For trees to grow in Brooklyn seeds need to be planted. I asked, "can you feel me?" and the crowd left me stranded" -Talib kweli

"Hip Hop can never be a way of life it doesn't tell you how to raise a child or treat a wife" -Q-tip A tribe called Quest

"...Cats sip champagne to toast death and pain like slaves on a ship talking about who has the flyest chain" -Talib Kweli Black Star

"We're the renegade we're the people with our own philosophy, we change the course of history. Everyday people like you and me." Afrika Bambaataa and the Soulsonic force Renegades of funk

"There's a war goin on outside no man is safe from...You can run but you can't hide forever" -Mobb Deep

with all due respect, bruh... i have a few tips:

1. take a logic class. it would do some of your analogies some good. the whole analogy of steal is to stealer as dicksucker is to homosexual doesn't work. women who suck dick aren't homosexual. Which gets back to my point. there are a series of "acts" in which people engage, that do not necessarily dictate one's sexual orientation (or I've heard some call it attraction orientation... since you're so hung up on sex). what one desires (an emotional capacity and sensibility) is not what one does (the sexual act itself). What is sex for money or survivor sex? (is it desire)? What is rape or molestation? do they too involve desire? I know straight boys and girls who play now and then, and I don't think that makes them gay. Gay is a deeper sensibility for deciding you'll live with same-sex desire despite the societal dictates that suggest it's wrong, abominable, sinful, impossible even.

2. romance and relationship being consumated by sex has nothing to do with sexuality per se.... it doesn't mean that where there's sex there is romance, it doesn't mean that where there is romance there is sex. but I bet you that chances are.... if your deep emotional attachements to someone are complemented by sexual desire, then you got some romance with some "shooky-shooky-now" on the way. Your stance seems pretty anti-sex/erotophobic, which isn't going to win over many heterosexuals either. like it or not, they're not beating and imprisoning and mocking and discriminating againt people for "homosexual thoughts"... it's ultimately the "act" that marks the difference (thus sodomy laws, not "thinking about getting some boy-ass" laws). (Were there any heterosexuals convicted under the sodomy laws?). In my opinion, sexual acts aren't bad. the creator wouldn't have given us the impulse if it were... something to produce children, to consumate love between adults. We are not always very responsible with this erotic power... but that doesn't make it bad.

3. I'm not nor will ever be one of those ex-gays. Hell, as for my sense of my sexual orientation... children, contrary to what you believe, do develop sensibilities and concepts for what their lives will be about as adults. Children do feel sexual desire. children are not responsible enough to deal with that desire, which is why we generally recommend abstinence until the child reaches an age where they understand the consequences of desire... but children, my friend, do desire. maybe some don't. I surely did... and I'm sure I can get a witness. I knew that as surely as my big brother 7, talked about having a pretty wife someday, that my romantic attachments were and would continue to be for men. Over the years I did question that and ultimately got clarity. The first time I kissed a guy I was like.... damn... that's what it's supposed to feel like!

Now calling me confused? I'll take that up with you should we ever meet. I've never been "confused" and certainly never come across that way. Confused are the girls who think they can convert me (and damn if they ain't trying all the time) or the brothas who think I'm some anomaly because I got some butch in my bones. LOL

You ever heard of compulsory heterosexuality? it's basically being and thinking you're hetero because the society in which you live provides no other option.... or presents other options as damnable or abject. It's a relevant concept for this conversation as that's what a lot of the African (born and raised) people I know speak of when talking about reconciling their Africanness with their homosexuality. the desire was always there. exploring it was not always an option.

For the record. I'm a pretty wise, experienced brotha... Have studied sexuality extensively, and have the insight for keen reflection and introspection on my own experieces and those of people (straight and gay) near and dear to me. For example, I have a nephew (8?) who I think might be gay. I haven't mentioned it to him or his mother... but he's aware that there are many healthy ways people can express desire... and should we ever have that conversation about "birds and bees" or "b-boys and b-boys", I'll be sure to encourage him to think seriously about the consequences of sex (with whomever) and I'll try to instill in him some principled thinking about his choices. I could be wrong... but I also know that if I'm right, he might not have to grow up to be suicidal and tortured in the ways I was as a child who was told from day one that I was hellbound for desires I didn't ask for and can't change.

I'm not gonna reply after this post. I get money and consultation fees for this kind of schooling at some of America's best universities. I can refer you to a few books if you want to challenge your box, homey. one of them would be my own: "Red Dirt Revival: a poetic memoir in 6 Breaths"

one.


tim'm
www.reddirt.biz

aka 25
www.deepdickollective.com


*Diamonds are Coals under Pressure*
-Lorraine Hansberry

*Black Men Loving Black Men is THE Revolutionary Act!
- Marlon Riggs

>ther are a series of "acts" in which people engage, that do >not necessarily dictate one's sexual orientation (or I've >heard some call it attraction orientation... since you're so >hung up on sex). what one desires (an emotional capacity and
>sensibility) is not what one does (the sexual act itself).
>What is sex for money or survivor sex? (is it desire)?

Point taken. The act does not equal desire.
Though I'm not sure what survivor sex is.

>I know straight boys and girls who play now and then, and I
>don't think that makes them gay.

The use of the word "PLAY", to me, seems to imply it's something they enjoy doing. Not just for the sake of money or survival.

>Gay is a deeper sensibility for deciding you'll live with same->sex desire despite the societal dictates that suggest it's >wrong, abominable, sinful, impossible even.
>
So gay is a decision. I'm not sure I get what you are saying here. If you have same-sex desire and decide not to act upon them then your not gay?

If one is born with same-sex desire (which I don't think everyone who identifies with being gay is) how can one decide to live with or without it unless you are referring to the act of gay sex itself being the manifestation of the decision to be gay.

>2. romance and relationship being consumated by sex has
>nothing to do with sexuality per se.... it doesn't mean
>that where there's sex there is romance, it doesn't mean
>that where there is romance there is sex. but I bet you
>that chances are.... if your deep emotional attachements to
>someone are complemented by sexual desire, then you got some
>romance with some "shooky-shooky-now" on the way.

My stance on romance/romantic is that it is all bull. Nothing more than the silly musings of a little girls.

>Your stance seems pretty anti-sex/erotophobic, which isn't >going to win over many heterosexuals either.

I don't know where you get I fear or am against sex out of what I wrote.

>like it or not, they're not beating and imprisoning and >mocking and discriminating againt people for "homosexual >thoughts"... it's ultimately the "act" that marks the >difference (thus sodomy laws, not "thinking about getting some >boy-ass" laws). (Were there any heterosexuals convicted under >the sodomy laws?). In my opinion, sexual acts aren't bad.

You mean those between humans and that are sexual in nature. Correct?

>the creator wouldn't have given us the impulse if it were...

To suggest the having impulses to do something means it is not bad is a false premise unless you prescribe to the philosophy that there is no bad.

>something to produce children, to consumate love between
>adults. We are not always very responsible with this erotic
>power... but that doesn't make it bad.
>
I agree with you on the "no always very responsible" part.

>3. I'm not nor will ever be one of those ex-gays. Hell, as
>for my sense of my sexual orientation... children, contrary
>to what you believe, do develop sensibilities and concepts
>for what their lives will be about as adults. Children do
>feel sexual desire. children are not responsible enough to
>deal with that desire, which is why we generally recommend
>abstinence until the child reaches an age where they
>understand the consequences of desire... but children, my
>friend, do desire. maybe some don't. I surely did... and
>I'm sure I can get a witness. I knew that as surely as my
>big brother 7, talked about having a pretty wife someday,
>that my romantic attachments were and would continue to be
>for men. Over the years I did question that and ultimately
>got clarity. The first time I kissed a guy I was like....
>damn... that's what it's supposed to feel like!
>
I'm not arguing the children don't have sexual desires. What I'm saying is at five I don't believe they do. Unless someone has been or is being inappropriate with them.

>Now calling me confused? I'll take that up with you should
>we ever meet. I've never been "confused" and certainly
>never come across that way. Confused are the girls who
>think they can convert me (and damn if they ain't trying all
>the time) or the brothas who think I'm some anomaly because
>I got some butch in my bones. LOL
>
Your right I don't know you like that to just come out and say you were confused. I meant to propose a possibility of confusion. You asnwer that already.

>You ever heard of compulsory heterosexuality? it's
>basically being and thinking you're hetero because the
>society in which you live provides no other option.... or
>presents other options as damnable or abject. It's a
>relevant concept for this conversation as that's what a lot
>of the African (born and raised) people I know speak of when
>talking about reconciling their Africanness with their
>homosexuality. the desire was always there. exploring it
>was not always an option.
>
I guess the idea I am advocating is cumpulsory homosexuality? Because a child doesn't act as society dictates their gender should act they are constantly told they are gay, or you better not be a faggot or dyke. Then the pygmalion effect takes hold. Everyone keeps telling me I'm gay, I must be gay.

>For the record. I'm a pretty wise, experienced brotha...
>Have studied sexuality extensively, and have the insight for
>keen reflection and introspection on my own experieces and
>those of people (straight and gay) near and dear to me. For
>example, I have a nephew (8?) who I think might be gay. I
>haven't mentioned it to him or his mother... but he's aware
>that there are many healthy ways people can express
>desire... and should we ever have that conversation about
>"birds and bees" or "b-boys and b-boys", I'll be sure to
>encourage him to think seriously about the consequences of
>sex (with whomever) and I'll try to instill in him some
>principled thinking about his choices. I could be wrong...
>but I also know that if I'm right, he might not have to grow
>up to be suicidal and tortured in the ways I was as a child
>who was told from day one that I was hellbound for desires I
>didn't ask for and can't change.
>
>I'm not gonna reply after this post. I get money and
>consultation fees for this kind of schooling at some of
>America's best universities. I can refer you to a few books
>if you want to challenge your box, homey. one of them would
>be my own: "Red Dirt Revival: a poetic memoir in 6
>Breaths"
>
Thanks for taking the time to reply.

------------------

Opinions are like assholes.

"...you cats are undercover like GAY rappers dealing with MYSTERY." -Talib Kweli This means you, from Reflection Eternal

"I don't blame Tiger Woods, but I overstand the mental poison that's even worse than drugs" -nas poison

"For trees to grow in Brooklyn seeds need to be planted. I asked, "can you feel me?" and the crowd left me stranded" -Talib kweli

"Hip Hop can never be a way of life it doesn't tell you how to raise a child or treat a wife" -Q-tip A tribe called Quest

"...Cats sip champagne to toast death and pain like slaves on a ship talking about who has the flyest chain" -Talib Kweli Black Star

"We're the renegade we're the people with our own philosophy, we change the course of history. Everyday people like you and me." Afrika Bambaataa and the Soulsonic force Renegades of funk

"There's a war goin on outside no man is safe from...You can run but you can't hide forever" -Mobb Deep

heteros could gain a lot if they'd access the
>minds, energies, and talents of some 10+ percent of their
>population who've been reduced to half-men and half-womyn
>because they choose not to pretend to be heterosexual.

...and it is where people show themselves as truly community minded or not. Truly community/progressive/open minded individuals would easily see the truth in this statement. Any spiritual system that is truly a spiritual system would see it as well and have already assigned homosexuals their proper place in the cosmology.



RealTalkInfinite

> heteros could gain a lot if they'd access the
>>minds, energies, and talents of some 10+ percent of their
>>population who've been reduced to half-men and half-womyn
>>because they choose not to pretend to be heterosexual.
>

Homosexuals do not represent 10+ percent of the population. Where did you get that propaganda?

prolly more like 30%... if you could DL Afro-citrists. LOL
_______________________________

*Diamonds are Coals under Pressure*
-Lorraine Hansberry

*Black Men Loving Black Men is THE Revolutionary Act!
- Marlon Riggs

Address the point.


RealTalkInfinite

a stat we could never determine gets beyond the constant devaluation of people of african descent who are same-sex loving/desiring. I threw out the "30% if you count DLs" as a way of heightening the ridiculosness of even the 10% i mentioned. the ten percent comes from the Kinsey report(?) that guesstimated (according to studies) some 10 of the population was probably same sex loving/desiring (and another substantil percentage about that, curious, capable, or on the way).... blah blah blah... and yeah....kinsey was white so i doesn't count for africans... like Christianity, or marriage, or cars, or computers...

(laugh here... not to be taken so damn seriously)


25
www.deepdickollective.com


*Diamonds are Coals under Pressure*
-Lorraine Hansberry

*Black Men Loving Black Men is THE Revolutionary Act!
- Marlon Riggs

...it was for Sundiata

I already understand where you comin' from...no explaination neccessary.


RealTalkInfinite

I have two questions for you.

1) So? Your point is What?

2) If you're going to start this Religious Guilt/Nazi shit, ask Ricky Fitts from the Movie; American Beauty what pictures he has to show you.
And THIS IS A CONTINUATION of thew Question, you ...

My last Name is Defendorf. DEFEn FUCKING DORF. Can you hear the seig heil yet?

SO, if you want me, YOU HAVE TO PAY ME, and I have Bottom Lines. But I'm warning you, you're not that powerful.

"Field or House?

that's my D.I.Etime, in the D.I.E- C

Nazi, repressive, Darkness and Lots of Negative Ego shit? We ain't started yet.

GTTYTLATE PASS

"CHEAT."

but don't get caught

LOVE<
CHRISTOPHER
the name has meant Tsunami since I was 14, so don't be judgemental, biutches! I could be hirt.

That is not a goddamn fucking typo!

And no, I still ain't never going to engage that energy. This Okayplayer might, but I won't
neither does the youth cuz we am-
brace adversity it goes right to the race:

ITS THE HUMAN RACE, RACIST! WAKE THE FUCK UP OR GO THE FUCK BACK TO AFRICA

either sample IceCube "Amerrikkka'ds Worst Hanukkah Ever" considered by the BombSquad and Ultimately shat upon by Priority Records (Stupid)

or "Do the Right THing".

I used to love H.E.R.

GOT YOUR ATTENTION. (AMERICANS ARE STUPID FORM THE GUILT TRIP)
before you start pestering me about thoat motherfucking Dave Chapelle "Goat Porn" resonance,

I'm fully asking for the beating to begin.

We ritually rape, sodomize, defile, you know the rest to SNOW WHITE
until we feel like stopping .

I get to kill her.

"BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY!!!!"

before extrapolating what an "original" aspect of any culture actually is

_¸»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«SiG»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«¸_



“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice. Remember, God is the best of Protectors and well acquainted with all that you do.”
-Qur’an 4:135

"Don't be deceived when they tell you things are better now. Even if there's no poverty to be seen because the poverty's been hidden. Even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which industries foist on you and even if it seems to you that you never had so much, that is only the slogan of those who still have much more than you. Don't be taken in when they paternally pat you on the shoulder and say that there's no inequality worth speaking of and no more reason to fight because if you believe them they will be completely in charge in their marble homes and granite banks from which they rob the people of the world under the pretence of bringing them culture. Watch out, for as soon as it pleases them they'll send you out to protect their gold in wars whose weapons, rapidly developed by servile scientists, will become more and more deadly until they can with a flick of the finger tear a million of you to pieces."
--Jean Paul Marat, 18th Century French Visionary (and revolutionary), murdered in his bathtub by Royalist Charlotte Corday

everyone goes into any study with their own preconceived notions or agendas...especially on something as controversal as homosexuality

_¸»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«SiG»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«¸_



“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice. Remember, God is the best of Protectors and well acquainted with all that you do.”
-Qur’an 4:135

"Don't be deceived when they tell you things are better now. Even if there's no poverty to be seen because the poverty's been hidden. Even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which industries foist on you and even if it seems to you that you never had so much, that is only the slogan of those who still have much more than you. Don't be taken in when they paternally pat you on the shoulder and say that there's no inequality worth speaking of and no more reason to fight because if you believe them they will be completely in charge in their marble homes and granite banks from which they rob the people of the world under the pretence of bringing them culture. Watch out, for as soon as it pleases them they'll send you out to protect their gold in wars whose weapons, rapidly developed by servile scientists, will become more and more deadly until they can with a flick of the finger tear a million of you to pieces."
--Jean Paul Marat, 18th Century French Visionary (and revolutionary), murdered in his bathtub by Royalist Charlotte Corday

homosexuality and TRUE spirituality can not coexist
homosexuality and cultural spirituality also can not exist
unless we are speaking of a homosexual culture or mind frame
which imo is something newly created
not saying homosexuality has not always existed, but homosexual "culture" has remerged recently
with the original being destroyed (sodom/gomorrah)

everywhere man, they just didn't have TV shows.

If you believe that is true. Give me one credible example of homosexuality in Africa prior to the intrusion of the European. Don't allow them to make their perversions yours.

prove to me that africans weren't purple and green skinned before they encountered Europeans. Just because they weren't documenting it doesn't mean it didn't exist dumbass. Or did they happen to leave evidence that there's no way they were gay?

>prove to me that africans weren't purple and green skinned
>before they encountered Europeans. Just because they weren't
>documenting it doesn't mean it didn't exist dumbass. Or did
>they happen to leave evidence that there's no way they were
>gay?

The fact that you have become extreme with your foolishness and resulted to childish namecalling shows a severe lack of depth in your position. Defend homosexuality if you must, just don't state that its other than European in origin.

______________________________

*TWINNING*

I don't understand we saw in the past that there's never gonna be an agreement on this isssue. plus nobody is willing to make concessions and shit.
let this subject die!

perspective on this topic. matter of fact, i'd prolly have been quick to reference welsing or baruti. i revisited my ideas, challanged them, they just didn't stand up. i turned a corner on that topic a few years back. so back to your statement: people really do have paradigm shifts. it just happens when they're ready. most times though, people just wanna advance the agendas they're already attached too. that's all that seems to happen in internet discussion forums anyway.


> plus nobody is willing to make concessions and shit.

What caused you to change your perspective?

I started taking lessons from personal observation and logic. questioning my views and seeing if my old view still stood.

at one point, my life focus was embracing and living in accord to afrikan tradition. for example, one reason I'm vegetarian today is because I internalized llaila o. afrika's assertion that we are nutritional uncle tom's and we've wholely accepted the europeans' diet. much of who i am today is about trying to be a better afrikan. but for the longest, I was about embracing tradition without criticism or regard as to whether all tradition was really "right".

i started to question my views on homosexuality when I saw the struggles my best friend and his family were having. his little brother is gay — not because of european influence and emulation, diet, abuse, molestation, school or friends. dude just gay. quiet as kept, everybody always knew that shit. seeing them struggle with his "issue" and their attempts to "straighten" him, just didn't feel right to me. they didn't want him to be true to self. there were a couple of other examples but i'll stop with that one.

later, i came to the realization that those of us trying to embrace african-centered ideals are much like the evangelical right in the sense that most of us endorse a narrow path that won't allow others to walk their own path without criticism, judgment and ridicule if that path isn't to our liking. i realized that, truth is, everybody ain't the same. i realized that truth trumps tradition and that sometimes tradition can be wrong and oppressive.

these days, I don't consider homosexuality anti-african — just anti-tradition. i don't consider it immoral that gays live out their sexuality as freely as we live out ours. we got an obsession about who other people partner with or how they have sex. i'd consider that a display of low moral character if I were to try to get in the way of someone else's pursuit of happiness, particularly when their quest doesn't interfere with my pursuit or the pursuit of my people. shit. many gays ARE our people. I'd consider it a display of low moral character if I were to participate in efforts organize against people's right to have their relationships recognized with the same respect that I expect mine to be recognized. truth is people are different and i believe they should have the freedom to be who they are. that's consistent with the principles that caused me to search for and embraced my culture in the first place.

that's pretty much what happened. hope this answers your question.

and for all of my philosophical parodic play... I do believe in paradigm shifts... hell i used to be an afrocentrist who hated myself.... now I'm a anti-centrist who loves myself... I agree with you that homosexuality is anti-tradition.... but it's anti euro tradition too. afrocentrists act like europe has always been jumping for joy about gays (not burning "faggots".... if you know what I mean) and that there aren't hieroglyphics suggestive of homoerotic desire (and don't ask me for the reference, cuz my library ain't here.... and it ain't that deep for me). let some tell it greeks and romans stole everything from africa, but they created that gay shit on their own.

honestly.... if nan african had ever been gay in the history of mankind... and i feel as purely about my desire for men as I have since I understood desire in the first place... i'd still want to be respected for that choice. anti-whatever you want to call it...

why must we find some pre-colonial example of african homosexual desire to validate why we shouldn't be killed, beaten, and outcasts...

my twenty-five sense,


tim'm
www.reddirt.biz
aka 25
www.deepdickollective.com


*Diamonds are Coals under Pressure*
-Lorraine Hansberry

*Black Men Loving Black Men is THE Revolutionary Act!
- Marlon Riggs

the two of you have basically expressed some of the clearest and well thought out logic in this post...

whichis more than i can say for Taharka and the other "quasi afrocentric {and im being so ironic here}" individuals whose continual and repetitive posts of hate and ignorance (no one said you had to agree but dont you get tired of always refusing to acnkowledge that not everyone agrees with you or your thought processes? et al.) really dont add up to much but show (at least to me) what is so inherently wrong with many learned folk of African descent and how we will continue to have difficulty progressing as a people....

besides, i find it hilarious that those who are showing the MOST dislike or hatred in this post are the most suspect closet cases at this site..makes youwonder...HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

25percenter--check your blog and email, nukka! :)

If more people possessed this ability, this post would've fell the day it was posted.

RealTalkInfinite

>at one point, my life focus was embracing and living in
>accord to afrikan tradition. for example, one reason I'm
>vegetarian today is because I internalized llaila o.
>afrika's assertion that we are nutritional uncle tom's and
>we've wholely accepted the europeans' diet.

hmmmmm
hmmmm
hmmmmmm

European diet ?

hmmm

______________________________

*TWINNING*

We lived off of mung beans and wheatgrass before the Great White Hunters came to Africa and told us all those animals running around were edible.

--------------------
The People's Champ

There's one of the most beautifully written, honest, and profound posts I've ever seen on this board. If there's any great reason for the existence of the internet, it's so that people can share things like this.

That's one of the most positive posts I've ever seen on here.

--------------------
The People's Champ

.

I don't see how folk can't see that, or get in an argument based on BS. No clear arguement was made.

Avi? Happy Birfday Pops!

FireBrand's
of the month: Doing her thizzle since back in the day, this pic is of her in an effort to persuade university administrators to divest from South Africa, Shawnta Watson (foreground) organized a sit-in the president's office, 1989.

Jan. 28th: Groove Theory (Final Fridays) @ Djangos OKP's Nabi and spinning downstairs, Upstairs. Free with before 1am.





_________________
Inaug'ral Member of the OkaySports Hall of Fame.

I was wondering too 'cause his posts are more sensible than that.

and frivolous many months ago. every 3rd of 4th post is out of character. it's just what he does now.

>would you agree or disagree with this statement?

I disagree with the original statement because I think civil war has a far more negating effect on African spirituality. Why? Well, I think violence, whether as one-on-one (as in rape, torturing, murder, etc.) or a group activity (civil war) cause huge distortions in the energy fields of perpetrators and victims alike, as well as the families and friends of both. These distortions radiate outward...eventually affecting us all. There are African men who as group or individually rape children and babies...and defile and hurt African women. Not only is this bad for spirituality but also any sense of community.

Being sexual means connecting to the life force and (to me) it doesn't matter who you have sex with, as long as you do it safely, responsibly and with full accountability. Sexual energy is a great example of the divine creative urge. Sacred sex is so powerful that you can reproduce with it but this is not the only thing that affirms life. Until we deal with the other problems (violence is an example) we can't even begin to talk about who people choose to have sex with.

No message

RealTalkInfinite

and looked at some of yall's replies...

as usual, as has been recently, i'm gonna have to take my views up with the people on a one on one basis via inbox cuz some of these ideas need to be "speeded" along so as to reach a level of discussion that deals with this topic. for a few of you...we'll have to chat via aim like we have been (you know who you are) cuz there need be a swift exchange of ideas and concepts to get cats up to speed.

stay tuned. and focused.

i mean SERIOUSLY, some of this shit is just plain SAD!!! even though i disAGREE with some of yall i coulda helped your arguments 10 fold because you Just. Aren't. Thinking. there were some HUGE ideological and conceptual leaps that allow your perspectives to be whittled down under the right scrutiny.

cause it seems that those who defended their comments and posts are clearly the "evil homos" being talked about...

but im just commenting here...

and WHY DO you let buildingblock use your ID? this is beyond stupid..even for you (and i suspect i may be giving you WAY too much credit even now)

and he's a fucking bastard! (plus it's like a lil raillery we have goin')

anyways...i don't think the people responding are evil...just that the ideas have not been thought out well enough on BASIC levels... better rebuttals have been spoken by A. Walker on this issue that get to more fundamental concerns that afrikan centered people might have. (not that i think she addresses the idea fully and wholly, but damn, she can at least silence some of the more unfounded shit.) i'm rambling now.

but breeze's statement leaves MUCH error for critical analysis that would undermine her words and ideas. EASILY.

i'm just kinda lazy too. this issue has been EXCELLENTLY addressed by enough afrikan centered minds that i don't need to talk. NOT TO MENTION the people i've posed some of THIER ideas too eventually (after learning about and executing an afrikan centered lifestlye) have come to agree with them. it aint tht hard...not even difficult to explain to those that have a more accepting demeanor to homosexuality...it's just that i aint the one. after 7 years of this shit, i'm tired. so now i'm just trying to address certain individuals for better dialogue. prolly the main reason i don't care about bblock using my screen name too... i just stopped givin a fuck.

>but breeze's statement leaves MUCH error for critical
>analysis that would undermine her words and ideas. EASILY.

i'm guessin' you're talkin' about me. if so, you meant HE. but anyway... go ahead and discuss the fallacy of my thinking. my guess is that you'll just bring the same arguments that i used to use when I was on the other side of this discussion. but maybe not. i'm open.

>i'm just kinda lazy too. this issue has been EXCELLENTLY
>addressed by enough afrikan centered minds that i don't need
>to talk. NOT TO MENTION the people i've posed some of THIER
>ideas too eventually (after learning about and executing an
>afrikan centered lifestlye) have come to agree with them.

the issue has been well addressed by this afrikan-centered mind too. "after learnin about and executing an afrikan centered lifestyle" for 15+ years and, for a time, accepting the same position on the issue as you, i've arrived to another perspective. other afrikan centered minds have too.

geek.

That's pretty much the only thing I can safely conclude. I didn't know spirits had their own culture/race either. Anything that causes you stress is probably bad for you. A lot of people are unsure about what to think about homosexuality, so for a lot of people, the subject of "homosexuality" causes stress. Is it an abomination or will we look down on our behavior towards gays decades from now? Are you born gay or is it learned sexual immorality? Or gay people deviants? Should I make an effort to understand something that goes against my religion(the word of God himself)?

Is homosexuality bad for African people?
I believe that anything use as weapon against the collective psyche of African people(not to mention weapons used against African people period.) is bad for us. In this case, uncertainty. Confusion can be as torturous as a life-long toothache. Thing is, nothing is really conclusive. Talk about fucked up. I think we have to begin to steadily realize that anything can be formed as a weapon against us and that there exist an infinite amount of negative external forces. It's definitely not far from evil(whatever that is). However, not experiencing joy is bad for anyone's spirituality IMO.

you're just recycling things which are gone. Dig deeper, just dig deeper and keep on running, Negro.

im still trying to understand why love is such a big problem and when has love become a stumbling block to developing our spirituality as humans.. no one is asking you to be gay.. take a minute to think outside your heterosexual brain and accept that not everyone is.. and if and when you realize there is more than one way to live happily on this planet.. then maybe you wont get worked up about something that really doesnt concern you..

>im still trying to understand why love is such a big problem
>and when has love become a stumbling block to developing our
>spirituality as humans.. no one is asking you to be gay..
>take a minute to think outside your heterosexual brain and
>accept that not everyone is.. and if and when you realize
>there is more than one way to live happily on this planet..
>then maybe you wont get worked up about something that
>really doesnt concern you..

it's always about purity, about inside vs. outside

_¸»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«SiG»¬æ¤º²°¯¯°²º¤æ¬«¸_



“Stand out firmly for Justice as witness before God, even against yourselves, against your kin and against your parents, against people who are rich or poor. Do not follow your inclinations or desires lest you deviate from Justice. Remember, God is the best of Protectors and well acquainted with all that you do.”
-Qur’an 4:135

"Don't be deceived when they tell you things are better now. Even if there's no poverty to be seen because the poverty's been hidden. Even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which industries foist on you and even if it seems to you that you never had so much, that is only the slogan of those who still have much more than you. Don't be taken in when they paternally pat you on the shoulder and say that there's no inequality worth speaking of and no more reason to fight because if you believe them they will be completely in charge in their marble homes and granite banks from which they rob the people of the world under the pretence of bringing them culture. Watch out, for as soon as it pleases them they'll send you out to protect their gold in wars whose weapons, rapidly developed by servile scientists, will become more and more deadly until they can with a flick of the finger tear a million of you to pieces."
--Jean Paul Marat, 18th Century French Visionary (and revolutionary), murdered in his bathtub by Royalist Charlotte Corday

Therefore we should ask ourselves what our motives are.

>would you agree or disagree with this statement?