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Subject: "I'm gonna catch Hell for this" This topic is locked.
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MisterGrump
Charter member
32144 posts
Mon Sep-11-00 07:25 PM

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"I'm gonna catch Hell for this"


  

          

Listening to Dead Prez's "They Schools".


I ain't agreeing with they WHOLE shit! Some points can be agreed upon, but some the others......Some of the stuff said is contradictory.


Can we talk about this for a second? I need some other opinions on this song.





little........................
Grump
M.W.S.
Advisor on Special and Covert Operations
"Giving folks a better, improved way of creeping"


"How many niggaz who will actually kill still rhymin?
How many niggaz who are actually signed still killin? ..
.. and when it comes to killin a mic, they ain't willin
and I'm supposed to be shook? That's the shit that kills me"
P. Monch

________________________________________
Grump
http://twitter.com/Gator_Bell

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
Not fresh in my head
Sep 11th 2000
1
whats wrong with learning
Sep 18th 2000
66
I'm gonna catch Hell for this
AfricanHerbsman
Sep 12th 2000
2
RE: I'm gonna catch Hell for this
Sep 15th 2000
64
      RE: I'm gonna catch Hell for this
Oct 06th 2000
72
I have questions too
Sep 12th 2000
3
I don't see the problem ...
Sep 12th 2000
4
you forgot...
Sep 12th 2000
5
yeah, but
Sep 12th 2000
6
RE: I don't see the problem ...
Sep 12th 2000
9
      RE: I don't see the problem ...
Sep 12th 2000
11
      RE: I don't see the problem ...
Sep 12th 2000
12
           RE: I don't see the problem ...
Sep 12th 2000
13
                Eff them
Sep 13th 2000
21
                     I find it strange
Sep 13th 2000
22
                     RE: Eff them
Sep 13th 2000
23
      well
Sep 13th 2000
19
      RE: well
Sep 13th 2000
24
           RE: well
Sep 13th 2000
25
                RE: well
Sep 13th 2000
27
                correct
Sep 13th 2000
28
      RE: I don't see the problem ...
Sep 18th 2000
67
           fail
Oct 05th 2000
71
RE: I have questions too
Sep 13th 2000
20
god
Sep 16th 2000
65
actually...
Sep 12th 2000
7
THE LYRICS
Sep 12th 2000
8
hmmm- reminds me of Pink Floyd
Oct 06th 2000
74
they schools...
Sep 12th 2000
10
Aiight!
Sep 12th 2000
14
My own personal Aiight!
d-Best
Sep 12th 2000
15
OKAY!
Sep 13th 2000
17
SUPER late, but I've been to Rickards
Sep 18th 2000
68
RE: Aiight!
Sep 18th 2000
69
Is this about DP's or black education?
Sep 13th 2000
16
watch it....
Sep 13th 2000
18
      Studying language
Sep 13th 2000
26
           but that's not what I'm saying
Sep 13th 2000
29
                and...
Sep 13th 2000
30
                to address everyone....
Sep 13th 2000
31
                     Word.
Sep 13th 2000
32
                     No one is saying that shakespeare isn't a great writer
Sep 14th 2000
39
                          RE: No one is saying that shakespeare isn't a great writer
Sep 14th 2000
49
                               I agree
Sep 14th 2000
55
                     Shakespeare to English is not
Sep 14th 2000
35
                          a thought
Sep 14th 2000
38
                          True..that's without question
Sep 14th 2000
41
                               True
Sep 14th 2000
42
                                    True, but check what I'm saying.
Sep 14th 2000
45
                                         RE: True, but check what I'm saying.
Sep 14th 2000
53
                          RE: Shakespeare to English is not
Sep 14th 2000
43
                          what are you missing here???
Sep 14th 2000
59
                          Shakespeare is to englis literature what
Sep 15th 2000
61
                               then....
Sep 15th 2000
63
                          Shakespeare's writing
Oct 06th 2000
75
                I understand
Sep 14th 2000
36
                     counteract/suppliment/compliment?
Sep 14th 2000
37
                     counteract sometimes
Sep 14th 2000
48
                          just making sure
Sep 14th 2000
50
                               who decides what's best to know
Sep 14th 2000
51
                                    RE: who decides what's best to know
Sep 14th 2000
52
                                         I ain't fussin' - sorry
Sep 14th 2000
54
                                              But
Sep 14th 2000
56
                                                   the parent that chooses to home school
Sep 14th 2000
57
                     RE: I understand
Sep 14th 2000
40
                          We're in a bad situation
Sep 14th 2000
44
                               so it's a vicious circle
Sep 14th 2000
46
                                    Integrated schools maybe important
Sep 14th 2000
47
                                         lots to think about
Sep 14th 2000
58
                                              RE: lots to think about - this is long
Sep 15th 2000
62
i lived the life you talkin
Sep 14th 2000
33
the disparity
Sep 14th 2000
34
short-term/long-term..
AfricanHerbsman
Sep 15th 2000
60
Let's make it practical...
Sep 19th 2000
70
RE: Let's make it practical...
Oct 06th 2000
73

delsbrothergeorge
Charter member
4413 posts
Mon Sep-11-00 09:13 PM

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1. "Not fresh in my head"
In response to Reply # 0


          

But I recall a line that had something to do with "students fighting teachers and students being lead away in handcuffs" that always struck me as odd.

Dead Prez impresses me as two cats who are all about discipline and surely they understand that in an organization there has to be some sort of hierarchy. Even in a socialist state, there still is some form of checks for the masses to be represented by a core leadership (but this is straying from the point).

Basically, I'm not sure about that line because if a teacher is to be effective, he/she must have the respect of the students and by default be given control of the classroom setting.

If Dead Prez are to be believed, then a student has every right to stand up and physically attack a teacher whom they do not agree with. And that just doesn't make sense to me.

---I'm here---

Rally cry heard at the scene of the Democratic National Convention:

"Stop...Drop/
People gonna rise to the top/
Oh...No/
Let Mumia go!"

---i'm here---

"...do what scares you..." -- l. varela

  

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GumDrops
Charter member
26088 posts
Mon Sep-18-00 05:29 AM

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66. "whats wrong with learning"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

about people and things that might not directly relate to your own life, but maybe could be applied? If all you learning about is one type of history, etc. then you're still gonna be close minded.

  

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AfricanHerbsman

Tue Sep-12-00 01:10 AM

  
2. "I'm gonna catch Hell for this"
In response to Reply # 0


          

>Can we talk about this for
>a second? I need some
>other opinions on this song.

maybe it's me, I never took the line about fighting teachers as literally as much of their stuff..'fighting' in the sense of persistently opposing his/her views, gets you branded a troublemaker because your 'facts' will never match accepted propaganda.

dunno if they're right or wrong or what exactly they've proposed to replace the current systems but I feel it's a fair point they made. speaking personally, as a ugandan, I've always been taught that having the opportunity to study outside my culture gives me a clear advantage over those that weren't/aren't able.

and I suppose it does in many ways. because shit's been rigged and gets perpetuated that way. and further up in the education system I've gone, more alienated I am/get from home, not only physically. so when I return, I may not have to struggle as hard as the next man, having a european degree, but I'm struggling still because I'm lost - it's like an alien landscape compared to early childhood memories.

anyway, I think you can use this link to get at the lyrics on ohhla.com:

http://www.ohhla.com/anonymous/deadprez/get_free/tschools.prz.txt

peace.
______________________________________

seize your time! - marley/wailers

every lifestyle got a price.. - ras kass

  

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illosopher
Charter member
596 posts
Fri Sep-15-00 11:51 AM

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64. "RE: I'm gonna catch Hell for this"
In response to Reply # 2


          

Yo kid, i think some teachers deserve to get their ass beat but again some don't.
I think Stic. Man and M1 would tell a cat to be cool and not bumrush a teacher, on the song they making an observation about cats who wild out on teachers, the same teachers that belittle kids and play a major role in the mis-education of our youth.


  

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urbgriot
Charter member
11445 posts
Fri Oct-06-00 10:34 AM

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72. "RE: I'm gonna catch Hell for this"
In response to Reply # 64


          

Have you ever tried teaching. It is one of the most difficult jobs to have. I have mentored at a public school, let's just say there are times when you will want to strangle somebody. It is easy to criticize teachers but put yourself on the front line at some of the inner city schools when you are under appreciated and belittled all day by children who have no remorse about taking someones life.

https://twitter.com/onnextlevel

  

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Blackmagicallydelicious
Charter member
9576 posts
Tue Sep-12-00 03:43 AM

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3. "I have questions too"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I'm a dead prez head. I listen to the cd on the regular, and to me "They Schools" is filled with mainly good points that I can relate to. I wouldn't take every line literally. I would queston why did the student feel compelled to fight the teacher? How come the teachers couldn't answer the questions and do some teaching outside the textbook? What if, like college, a high school diploma isn't everybody?

My main concern on the cd is their belief, or disbelief, in God. I can understand some opposition to the Bible, Christianity, etc. because not everyone is Christian. But they seem to be questioning the Creator's existence altogether. Hopefully, I can chat with these brothers when they come this way for the Okayplayer tour and ask them.

*********************************************************
Giving you true broken toilets since 2000.

September: Spit 4? Okay, I'll try it...

You point and laugh and say I dress funny.
While you sport Japanimated silk shirts and still look bummy.
But it's not about my clothes.
Cause I could still be the shit while I rock your great-granny's wardrobe.

Quotes start heah...
*"Bush proves that he is a man who will best serve the people...their last meal."--Jon Stewart
*"While you sittin' over there drinkin' that Snapple/You need to put your head between my thighs and start bobbin' for apples."--Brown Skin Lady to Naps
*"We see through your voodoo, just like Eve's Bayou, you dealing with the Blackmagic..." Talib Kweli

do damage for damage be
unpredictable with map and compass
& weapons pressed against the cheek
--Sun Rise Missions, from Earthquakes and Sun Rise Missions by Haki R. Madhubuti.

"Slaves have options. There's escape, revolt, or death. But for cowards, there's only consequences..."--from Passing Strange

  

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krewcial
Charter member
3268 posts
Tue Sep-12-00 03:53 AM

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4. "I don't see the problem ..."
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

>My main concern on the cd
>is their belief, or disbelief,
>in God. I can
>understand some opposition to the
>Bible, Christianity, etc. because not
>everyone is Christian. But
>they seem to be questioning
>the Creator's existence altogether.

If so, they're not the only ones ...

I just read the results of a US survey where they asked people who'd they NEVER vote for :

2% said for a Jew/christian
15% said for a black person
47% said for an atheist

Frightens me...


krewc


OKAYPLAYER COMPILATION 2000 !!!
http://urgent.rug.ac.be/vinylators/okpcompil2000.htm

OKAYPLAYERSONG PT. 2 :
http://urgent.rug.ac.be/vinylators/audio/okp2s.mp3

OKAYPLAYERSONG PT. 1 (the original baybee !!):
http://urgent.rug.ac.be/vinylators/audio/okplayer.mp3

HOME : http://urgent.rug.ac.be/vinylators

I'm part of this too ... :
http://www.thejawn.com/okprod/

the instrumentals for my next album (in MP3-format) :
http://urgent.rug.ac.be/vinylators/audio/instrus.html


'We've got to change our own minds about each other. We have to see each other with new eyes. We have to see each other as brothers and sisters. We have to come together with warmth'

krewcial
www.krewcial.com
www.myspace.com/krewcial
www.okayplayer.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=23051&forum=lesson

http://www.23hq.com/krewcial/photo/1085564?album_id=1085556

Nashville recording sessions : www.krewcial.com/nashville

  

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mke
Member since Oct 20th 2002
3 posts
Tue Sep-12-00 04:00 AM

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5. "you forgot..."
In response to Reply # 4


          

The most important result of the survey:

98% said Krewcial.
And you can't forget the +/- 2% error margin...

AIM: mke1978

"L'actualité régionale: c'est vous qui la vivez, c'est nous qui en vivons"
In English:
"Local news: you live it, we live off it"
- Jules-Edouard Moustic, 20H20

"There's no blood in my body/It's liquid soul in my veins"
- Roots Manuva (check the fantastic album "Brand New Second Hand")




  

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krewcial
Charter member
3268 posts
Tue Sep-12-00 04:10 AM

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6. "yeah, but"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

that's not much of a surprise

12" coming (seriously)


krewc

OKAYPLAYER COMPILATION 2000 !!!
http://urgent.rug.ac.be/vinylators/okpcompil2000.htm

OKAYPLAYERSONG PT. 2 :
http://urgent.rug.ac.be/vinylators/audio/okp2s.mp3

OKAYPLAYERSONG PT. 1 (the original baybee !!):
http://urgent.rug.ac.be/vinylators/audio/okplayer.mp3

HOME : http://urgent.rug.ac.be/vinylators

I'm part of this too ... :
http://www.thejawn.com/okprod/

the instrumentals for my next album (in MP3-format) :
http://urgent.rug.ac.be/vinylators/audio/instrus.html


'We've got to change our own minds about each other. We have to see each other with new eyes. We have to see each other as brothers and sisters. We have to come together with warmth'

krewcial
www.krewcial.com
www.myspace.com/krewcial
www.okayplayer.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=23051&forum=lesson

http://www.23hq.com/krewcial/photo/1085564?album_id=1085556

Nashville recording sessions : www.krewcial.com/nashville

  

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Blackmagicallydelicious
Charter member
9576 posts
Tue Sep-12-00 06:00 AM

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9. "RE: I don't see the problem ..."
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

How can you start a revolution with no spiritual basis? God is in everything, and not because Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, etc. told me so. God is in me. I would not feel comfortable following a leader who does not share at least that belief.

*********************************************************
Giving you true broken toilets since 2000.

September: Spit 4? Okay, I'll try it...

You point and laugh and say I dress funny.
While you sport Japanimated silk shirts and still look bummy.
But it's not about my clothes.
Cause I could still be the shit while I rock your great-granny's wardrobe.

Quotes start heah...
*"Bush proves that he is a man who will best serve the people...their last meal."--Jon Stewart
*"While you sittin' over there drinkin' that Snapple/You need to put your head between my thighs and start bobbin' for apples."--Brown Skin Lady to Naps
*"We see through your voodoo, just like Eve's Bayou, you dealing with the Blackmagic..." Talib Kweli

do damage for damage be
unpredictable with map and compass
& weapons pressed against the cheek
--Sun Rise Missions, from Earthquakes and Sun Rise Missions by Haki R. Madhubuti.

"Slaves have options. There's escape, revolt, or death. But for cowards, there's only consequences..."--from Passing Strange

  

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jsmooth995
Charter member
2752 posts
Tue Sep-12-00 09:06 AM

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11. "RE: I don't see the problem ..."
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

So as an atheist I cannot be part of your revolution?

Jay Smooth
WBAI 99.5 FM in NY
http://www.hiphopmusic.com

A MUST READ:
"Beyond The Whiteness of Whiteness: Memoir of a White Mother of Black Sons " by Jane Lazarre

http://www.illdoctrine.com - where hip-hop vlogs?

  

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Blackmagicallydelicious
Charter member
9576 posts
Tue Sep-12-00 09:10 AM

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12. "RE: I don't see the problem ..."
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

You could take part, but I would not follow you if you were to lead. We'd have to be in the trenches for me to consider it.

*********************************************************
Giving you true broken toilets since 2000.

http://www.NoStigma.org
It's okay, really.

September: Spit 4? Okay, I'll try it...

You point and laugh and say I dress funny.
While you sport Japanimated silk shirts and still look bummy.
But it's not about my clothes.
Cause I could still be the shit while I rock your great-granny's wardrobe.

Quotes start heah...
*"Bush proves that he is a man who will best serve the people...their last meal."--Jon Stewart
*"While you sittin' over there drinkin' that Snapple/You need to put your head between my thighs and start bobbin' for apples."--Brown Skin Lady to Naps
*"We see through your voodoo, just like Eve's Bayou, you dealing with the Blackmagic..." Talib Kweli

do damage for damage be
unpredictable with map and compass
& weapons pressed against the cheek
--Sun Rise Missions, from Earthquakes and Sun Rise Missions by Haki R. Madhubuti.

"Slaves have options. There's escape, revolt, or death. But for cowards, there's only consequences..."--from Passing Strange

  

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jsmooth995
Charter member
2752 posts
Tue Sep-12-00 09:39 AM

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13. "RE: I don't see the problem ..."
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

Okay I have no problem with that...but I must point out that atheists and agnostics have had leadership roles in many social movements around the world.

For example the fight for women's suffrage was successfully led by two non-believers, Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton. Were they not worthy leaders?

Jay Smooth
WBAI 99.5 FM in NY
http://www.hiphopmusic.com

A MUST READ:
"Beyond The Whiteness of Whiteness: Memoir of a White Mother of Black Sons " by Jane Lazarre

http://www.illdoctrine.com - where hip-hop vlogs?

  

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Blackmagicallydelicious
Charter member
9576 posts
Wed Sep-13-00 07:19 AM

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21. "Eff them"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

They were fighting for white women's rights. They didn't want to include black women. So, that doesn't mean a damn thing to me. Just proves my point even more, as far as I'm concerned.

*********************************************************
Giving you true broken toilets since 2000.

http://www.NoStigma.org
It's okay, really.

September: Spit 4? Okay, I'll try it...

You point and laugh and say I dress funny.
While you sport Japanimated silk shirts and still look bummy.
But it's not about my clothes.
Cause I could still be the shit while I rock your great-granny's wardrobe.

Quotes start heah...
*"Bush proves that he is a man who will best serve the people...their last meal."--Jon Stewart
*"While you sittin' over there drinkin' that Snapple/You need to put your head between my thighs and start bobbin' for apples."--Brown Skin Lady to Naps
*"We see through your voodoo, just like Eve's Bayou, you dealing with the Blackmagic..." Talib Kweli

do damage for damage be
unpredictable with map and compass
& weapons pressed against the cheek
--Sun Rise Missions, from Earthquakes and Sun Rise Missions by Haki R. Madhubuti.

"Slaves have options. There's escape, revolt, or death. But for cowards, there's only consequences..."--from Passing Strange

  

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krewcial
Charter member
3268 posts
Wed Sep-13-00 07:34 AM

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22. "I find it strange"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

To think people are only capable of responsibility or being influential when they believe in a higher being.


krewc


OKAYPLAYER COMPILATION 2000 !!!
http://urgent.rug.ac.be/vinylators/okpcompil2000.htm

OKAYPLAYERSONG PT. 2 :
http://urgent.rug.ac.be/vinylators/audio/okp2s.mp3

OKAYPLAYERSONG PT. 1 (the original baybee !!):
http://urgent.rug.ac.be/vinylators/audio/okplayer.mp3

HOME : http://urgent.rug.ac.be/vinylators

I'm part of this too ... :
http://www.thejawn.com/okprod/

the instrumentals for my next album (in MP3-format) :
http://urgent.rug.ac.be/vinylators/audio/instrus.html


'We've got to change our own minds about each other. We have to see each other with new eyes. We have to see each other as brothers and sisters. We have to come together with warmth'

krewcial
www.krewcial.com
www.myspace.com/krewcial
www.okayplayer.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=23051&forum=lesson

http://www.23hq.com/krewcial/photo/1085564?album_id=1085556

Nashville recording sessions : www.krewcial.com/nashville

  

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jsmooth995
Charter member
2752 posts
Wed Sep-13-00 09:06 AM

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23. "RE: Eff them"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

Actually both of them were also active in the anti-slavery movement, that is how they met eachother. But regardless, are you saying whatever lack of enlightenment they had regarding racial issues was related to their lack of religious faith? I don't see the connection.

Do you deny that their leadership helped gain the right to vote for ALL women, which you as a black woman DO benefit from? (well, perhaps the "benefits" of this right are questionable but you know what i mean.)

If your theory is that a movement or "revolution" cannot be effectively led by one who lacks "spirituality", their example would seem to disprove that. They set out to gain suffrage for all women, and they succeeded at that.

Besides, can you name any leader whose vision was not flawed in one way or another? Sexism was epidemic throughout civil rights movement, from the SCLC to the Panthers. During Ghandi's time in South Africa he expressed no interest whatsoever in seeking justice for the Black majority living under apartheid, taking note only of how it affected the Indians living there. Religious faith did not help any of these leaders expand their vision.

Jay Smooth
WBAI 99.5 FM in NY
http://www.hiphopmusic.com

"I don't NEED to be subliminable!" - George W. Bush

http://www.illdoctrine.com - where hip-hop vlogs?

  

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krewcial
Charter member
3268 posts
Wed Sep-13-00 07:04 AM

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19. "well"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

>How can you start a revolution
>with no spiritual basis?

Who says you can't ?
Who says your definition of 'spirituality' is the only valid one ?
Why should 'spirituality' include god ?

What do you mean with 'spirituality' ? Do you equate it with religion or believing in a higher being ?

>God is in everything, and
>not because Christianity, Judaism, Islam,
>Buddhism, etc. told me so.

Again : depends on how you define 'god'. I might agree to a certain extent, depending on your definition.

>God is in me.
>I would not feel
>comfortable following a leader who
>does not share at least
>that belief.

Just like I wouldn't feel comfortable with following a leader claiming or believing that everyone has to be religious or believing the things he/she does.


krewc

OKAYPLAYER COMPILATION 2000 !!!
http://urgent.rug.ac.be/vinylators/okpcompil2000.htm

OKAYPLAYERSONG PT. 2 :
http://urgent.rug.ac.be/vinylators/audio/okp2s.mp3

OKAYPLAYERSONG PT. 1 (the original baybee !!):
http://urgent.rug.ac.be/vinylators/audio/okplayer.mp3

HOME : http://urgent.rug.ac.be/vinylators

I'm part of this too ... :
http://www.thejawn.com/okprod/

the instrumentals for my next album (in MP3-format) :
http://urgent.rug.ac.be/vinylators/audio/instrus.html


'We've got to change our own minds about each other. We have to see each other with new eyes. We have to see each other as brothers and sisters. We have to come together with warmth'

krewcial
www.krewcial.com
www.myspace.com/krewcial
www.okayplayer.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=23051&forum=lesson

http://www.23hq.com/krewcial/photo/1085564?album_id=1085556

Nashville recording sessions : www.krewcial.com/nashville

  

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Blackmagicallydelicious
Charter member
9576 posts
Wed Sep-13-00 09:58 AM

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24. "RE: well"
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

You are going to feel however you are going to feel, believe whatever it is that you are going to believe. I believe that God is the foundation for all things, from the outer limits of space to the tiniest inner workings of you and me. I do not doubt that God exists and find it hard to believe some one would doubt His existence as much as you find it hard to belief that I wouldn't.

Plus, I cannot think of any spiritual connection that anyone has experienced that does not involve God. How can so many people of so many faiths be, what, in the dark since the beginning of time? Are we backward to believe? And no, I do not believe that there is some big, old guy in the sky looking down on us. I believe that God is a being that we could not truly imagine that is entertwined in all we can and can't see.

Everyone's experience is different. I will not go into exactly what it was, but dreams I've had, people I've encountered, just looking at a green treetops against a blue sky affirm my belief in a higher power. I am not ashamed of what I believe, and if you strongly believe whatever you feel, then you shouldn't be ashamed either.
*********************************************************
Giving you true broken toilets since 2000.

http://www.NoStigma.org
It's okay, really.

September: Spit 4? Okay, I'll try it...

You point and laugh and say I dress funny.
While you sport Japanimated silk shirts and still look bummy.
But it's not about my clothes.
Cause I could still be the shit while I rock your great-granny's wardrobe.

Quotes start heah...
*"Bush proves that he is a man who will best serve the people...their last meal."--Jon Stewart
*"While you sittin' over there drinkin' that Snapple/You need to put your head between my thighs and start bobbin' for apples."--Brown Skin Lady to Naps
*"We see through your voodoo, just like Eve's Bayou, you dealing with the Blackmagic..." Talib Kweli

do damage for damage be
unpredictable with map and compass
& weapons pressed against the cheek
--Sun Rise Missions, from Earthquakes and Sun Rise Missions by Haki R. Madhubuti.

"Slaves have options. There's escape, revolt, or death. But for cowards, there's only consequences..."--from Passing Strange

  

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jsmooth995
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Wed Sep-13-00 10:10 AM

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25. "RE: well"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

> I do not
>doubt that God exists and
>find it hard to believe
>some one would doubt His
>existence as much as you
>find it hard to belief
>that I wouldn't.

But see, we (krewcial I'm assuming you'd be with me on this, correct me if I'm wrong) DON'T find it hard to believe you wouldn't. We respect your beliefs and do not think any less of you because of them. We only wish you could afford us the same respect.

>Plus, I cannot think of any
>spiritual connection that anyone has
>experienced that does not involve
>God.

Many Buddhists do not believe in God, yet they are highly spiritual.

> I am
>not ashamed of what I
>believe, and if you strongly
>believe whatever you feel, then
>you shouldn't be ashamed either.

On that we agree.

Jay Smooth
WBAI 99.5 FM in NY
http://www.hiphopmusic.com

"I don't NEED to be subliminable!" - George W. Bush

http://www.illdoctrine.com - where hip-hop vlogs?

  

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Oakley
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Wed Sep-13-00 11:38 AM

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27. "RE: well"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

I'm with you!

___________________________________
"WASP of the year: even if he isn�t a WASP, Oakley. Sailing? Check. In a yacht club? Check. Used the term �summer� as a verb instead of a noun? You betcha!" -thejerseytornado

  

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krewcial
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Wed Sep-13-00 11:47 AM

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28. "correct"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

>But see, we (krewcial I'm assuming
>you'd be with me on
>this, correct me if I'm
>wrong) DON'T find it hard
>to believe you wouldn't. We
>respect your beliefs and do
>not think any less of
>you because of them. We
>only wish you could afford
>us the same respect.

>>Plus, I cannot think of any
>>spiritual connection that anyone has
>>experienced that does not involve
>>God.

When I listen to some music that truly touches me, like seeing Jill Scott turn a crowd silent with just 2 notes and giving me goose bumps and the occasional tears, that's spirituality to me.

When i listen to D shouting "Pino Palladino !" and then hear that bassline of "Feel Like Making Love" coming in, that's when I experience what I would describe as or call spirituality.

However, that doesn't mean I believe in (any) god or supreme higher being.

In short : I believe we are part of a bigger thing (ie nature, earth, solar system, ...), and there's plenty of stuff we don't know.
But I don't need explanations or a higher being or book explaining that to me. I accept that I don't know nor understand everything, without looking for a reason or a system/religion behind it.

Anyway, this stuff is way too complex for a post (and my knowledge of English is still limited for this type of thing).


krewc

OKAYPLAYER COMPILATION 2000 !!!
http://urgent.rug.ac.be/vinylators/okpcompil2000.htm

OKAYPLAYERSONG PT. 2 :
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OKAYPLAYERSONG PT. 1 (the original baybee !!):
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I'm part of this too ... :
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the instrumentals for my next album (in MP3-format) :
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'We've got to change our own minds about each other. We have to see each other with new eyes. We have to see each other as brothers and sisters. We have to come together with warmth'

krewcial
www.krewcial.com
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Nashville recording sessions : www.krewcial.com/nashville

  

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MrMajor
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Mon Sep-18-00 05:44 AM

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67. "RE: I don't see the problem ..."
In response to Reply # 9


          

>How can you start a revolution
>with no spiritual basis?
>God is in everything, and
>not because Christianity, Judaism, Islam,
>Buddhism, etc. told me so.
> God is in me.
> I would not feel
>comfortable following a leader who
>does not share at least
>that belief.
>


What about the Boxer Rebellion in China or the revolutions that led toward the creation of (now defunct)the Soviet Union? Most (all?) communist states are very anti-religion/god.


"Q, don't let me go...Aaaaaaahhhhhhhh!"

- Bishop

  

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urbgriot
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Thu Oct-05-00 11:07 AM

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71. "fail"
In response to Reply # 67


          

That is why these revolutions are destined for failure.
Spirituality supports Reality (c) Guru

https://twitter.com/onnextlevel

  

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Oakley
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Wed Sep-13-00 07:11 AM

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20. "RE: I have questions too"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

Whats wrong with questioning the existance of a God? Why do people make such a big deal out of agnostics and atheists, like they're stupid for having a differnet set of beleifs? I myself am an atheist and I run into this a lot. I get the impression that some people think I have no morals or anything to offer them, just because I'm an atheist. What is the big freakin' deal??????

___________________________________
"WASP of the year: even if he isn�t a WASP, Oakley. Sailing? Check. In a yacht club? Check. Used the term �summer� as a verb instead of a noun? You betcha!" -thejerseytornado

  

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chillinCHiEF
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Sat Sep-16-00 06:16 AM

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65. "god"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          


Even though not believing in god isn't accepted well in this society, I can see where there coming from. To believe there is a god, who is good, in a world, that is for the most part bad, seems foolish to them. If you believe none of what you hear and half of what you see, then you'll never be concerned with god.

that's that slum diggy ish

  

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BooDaah
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Tue Sep-12-00 05:02 AM

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7. "actually..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

quite a bit of what they say is a little boarderline...

what specifically are you referring to?

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html
-----------------------------
Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
Step1:inform yourself step/Step2:inform others/Step3:discuss the problem/Step4: DISCUSS SOLUTIONS/Step5:EXECUTE SOLUTIONS/Step6:evaluate the results/Step7:start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------

  

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Hot_Damali
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Tue Sep-12-00 05:24 AM

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8. "THE LYRICS"
In response to Reply # 0


          

THEY SCHOOLS by DEAD PREZ

Why haven't you learned anything?

Man that school shit is a joke
The same people who control the school system control
The prison system, and the whole social system
Ever since slavery, nawsayin?


I went to school with some redneck crackers
Right around the time 3rd Bass dropped the cactus album
But I was readin Malcolm
I changed my name in '89 cleaning parts of my brain
Like a baby nine
I took a history class serious
Front row, every day of the week, 3rd period
Fuckin with the teachers had, callin em racist
I tried to show them crackers some light, they couldn't face it
I got my diploma from a school called Rickers
Full of, teenage mothers, and drug dealin niggas
In the hallways, the popo was always present
Searchin through niggas possessions
Lookin for, dope and weapons, get your lessons
That's why my moms kept stressin
I tried to pay attention but they classes wasn't interestin
They seemed to only glorify the Europeans
Claimin Africans were only three-fifths a human being

HOOK:
They schools can't teach us shit
My people need freedom, we tryin to get all we can get
All my high school teachers can suck my dick
Tellin me white man lies straight bullshit (echoes)
They schools aint teachin us, what we need to know to survive
(Say what, say what)
They schools don't educate, all they teach the people is lies

You see dog, you see how quick these motherfuckers be to like
Be tellin niggas get a diploma so you can get a job
Knowwhatimsayin but they don't never tell you how the job
Gonna exploit you every time knowwhatimsayin that's why I be like
Fuck they schools!


School is like a 12 step brainwash camp
They make you think if you drop out you aint got a chance
To advance in life, they try to make you pull your pants up
Students fight the teachers and get took away in handcuffs
And if that wasn't enough, then they expel y'all
Your peoples understand it but to them, you a failure
Observation and participation, my favorite teachers
When they beat us in the head with them books, it don't reach us
Whether you breakdance or rock suede addidas
Or be in the bathroom with your clique, smokin reefer
Then you know they math class aint important 'less you addin up cash
In multiples, unemployment aint rewardin
They may as well teach us extortion
You either get paid or locked up, the pricipal is like a warden
In a four year sentence, mad niggas never finish
But that doesn't mean I couldn't be a doctor or a dentist

HOOK(first part of hook twice)

Cuz for real, a mind is a terrible thing to waste
And all y'all high class niggas with y'all nose up
Cuz we droppin this shit on this joint, fuck y'all
We gon speak for ourselves
Knowhatimsayin? Cuz see the schools aint teachin us nothin
They aint teachin us nothin but how to be slaves and hardworkers
For white people to build up they shit
Make they businesses successful while it's exploitin us
Knowhatimsayin? And they aint teachin us nothin related to
Solvin our own problems, knowhatimsayin?
Aint teachin us how to get crack out the ghetto
They aint teachin us how to stop the police from murdering us
And brutalizing us, they aint teachin us how to get our rent paid
Knowhatimsayin? They aint teachin our families how to interact
Better with each other, knowhatimsayin? They just teachin us
How to build they shit up, knowhatimsayin? That's why my niggas
Got a problem with this shit, that's why niggas be droppin out that
Shit cuz it don't relate, you go to school the fuckin police
Searchin you you walkin in your shit like this a military compound
Knowhatimsayin? So school don't even relate to us
Until we have some shit where we control the fuckin school system
Where we reflect how we gon solve our own problems
Them niggas aint gon relate to school, shit that just how it is
Knowhatimsayin? And I love education, knowhatimsayin?
But if education aint elevatin me, then you knowhatimsayin it aint
Takin me where I need to go on some bullshit, then fuck education
Knowhatimsayin? At least they shit, matter of fact my nigga
this whole school system can suck my dick, BEEYOTCH!!







  

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Dove
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Fri Oct-06-00 07:40 PM

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74. "hmmm- reminds me of Pink Floyd"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

"We don't need no education
We don't need no thought control...
All we really are is
another brick in the wall"

Dove
~Sheepish Lordess of Chaos~


"One day all them bags gon' get in your way..." Erykah

"You can't talk your way out of problems you behave yourself into" ~ S. Covey

Email: Tygereyz67@aol.com
Wanna paaaaaage me? Email up to 200 characters: Dove@myairmail.com

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chap19150
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Tue Sep-12-00 06:02 AM

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10. "they schools..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"Knowhatimsayin? And they aint teachin us nothin
related to Solvin our own problems,
knowhatimsayin? Aint teachin us how to get crack
out the ghetto They aint teachin us how to stop
the police from murdering us And brutalizing us,
they aint teachin us how to get our rent paid
Knowhatimsayin? They aint teachin our families
how to interact Better with each other,
knowhatimsayin? They just teachin us
How to build they shit up, knowhatimsayin? "

I agree with most of their statements in "they
schools", but I think that the parents need to
be scrutinized more than the schools, espically
in this part here. Is it really the schools
responibility to get crack out the ghetto, or to
teach our families to interact better with each
other? No it's the parents and community
leaders...



"over tones over waves of laughter
under hues deepest blues hereafter
we touch souls and the moment glows
here and now, we are far more than our senses"
-Cassandra Wilson


AIM - chap19150

http://www.flickr.com/photos/chap19150/

  

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MisterGrump
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32144 posts
Tue Sep-12-00 10:39 AM

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14. "Aiight!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I read the lyrics before I made this post. But thanx anyways for the peeps who put the lyrics up!!!!!!!!

Now, going through these lyrics, I'm dumbfounded by the amount of selective learning these cats is showing!!!!!

-Who knows anything about Rickers High School? Give us a background about it and the student population, please.

-"In the hallways, the popo was always present Searchin through niggas possessions
Lookin for, dope and weapons, get your lessons
That's why my moms kept stressin"

Okay, maybe I'm seeing this wrong, but wouldn't it be a BETTER learning environment if there were no drugs to be searched for? C'mon now!!! You just said that cats in the school sell drugs there! Don't you WANT the Police to catch them before it's too late?



I got more to point out, but right now, I got to go to work!!!!!!!


-





little........................
Grump
M.W.S.
Advisor on Special and Covert Operations
"Giving folks a better, improved way of creeping"


"How many niggaz who will actually kill still rhymin?
How many niggaz who are actually signed still killin? ..
.. and when it comes to killin a mic, they ain't willin
and I'm supposed to be shook? That's the shit that kills me"
P. Monch

________________________________________
Grump
http://twitter.com/Gator_Bell

  

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d-Best

Tue Sep-12-00 10:54 AM

  
15. "My own personal Aiight!"
In response to Reply # 14


          

THIS IS NOT DIRECTED TO ANY ONE CAT--JUST IN GENERAL...


Y'all are focusing on more surface, sentence-level questions than a first year student taking English as a second language.

(a little teaching humor... ha... ha...)


O-kay, no for real. It's not as bad as bible-interpreters who find magical three word phrases which "prove that we are supposed to be slaves" and that type of nonsense, but it's the same logic.

WITH LOVE, i submit, that the messages in ANYTHING have to be found by a whole read, we're reacting to phrases, and not sentiment sometimes. It's gut reaction, it's not enlightened reaction.


Moreso, this is completely different, all that i just type is "in general"

Y'all forget that rap is poetry, and poetic messages aren't literal.

One of my best published works is about finding dragons, sexiness, and being eaten by dragons. Does it have anything to do with that? No, it's about my lady's sister and funny feelings (if you know what I'M sayin'... )

students fighting teachers and getting taken out in handcuffs...

You can't approach that with your Dad hats on--that's not what's it's about.

if fighting is arguing, it's accurate, students get thrown out of schools for nothing in urban settings, and they're ignored everyone screams it's the teachers fault.

if fighting is fighting, fine, ya, dad this, dad that, but that's not what it's about. What is the best thing for a messed up cat to do? TO LEARN. The removal in handcuffs is a metaphor for furning our backs on cats who need it most.

Dead-Prez Hip-Hop poetics is not about practicality and sentence-level syntax--it's about exposing fringe shit that happens alot more than dads and suburban cats are willing to accept.

If we approach it as just a couple of cats interested in the message, it's as smooth as a baby's handcuffs.


  

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MisterGrump
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Wed Sep-13-00 06:02 AM

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17. "OKAY!"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

But where do you draw the line between literal and figurative?





little........................
Grump
M.W.S.
Advisor on Special and Covert Operations
"Giving folks a better, improved way of creeping"


"How many niggaz who will actually kill still rhymin?
How many niggaz who are actually signed still killin? ..
.. and when it comes to killin a mic, they ain't willin
and I'm supposed to be shook? That's the shit that kills me"
P. Monch

________________________________________
Grump
http://twitter.com/Gator_Bell

  

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Kemp
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1405 posts
Mon Sep-18-00 11:36 AM

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68. "SUPER late, but I've been to Rickards"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

>-Who knows anything about Rickers High
>School? Give us a background
>about it and the student
>population, please.

I just caught ya post in the news, but I got some info bout Rickards.It's out in Tallahassee, where I went to high school, I went to Lincoln, but went to Rickards for a semester of summer school after my sophmore year, which was 4 years back(time flies for real), anyways, considering it was summer school it might be an unfair picture, but I was very happy this wasn't my full time school, even though I DID hook-up wit a nice shorty, ok back to present day, "I often drift"(c)Andre Benjamin. Cats showed out big time up in there, on some ol' ingnant ish, I can understand his(stic or M-1, forget which) perspective at least. On a side note I flipped when he said "Rickards", just the reaction of hearing familiar places I guess. If there's anything else you wanna know get at me.

peace

  

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adiSHAKES
Member since Jun 08th 2002
2 posts
Mon Sep-18-00 12:37 PM

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69. "RE: Aiight!"
In response to Reply # 14


          

Yo son,

the name of the school is actually RICKARDS HIGH and it is in Tallahassee.. STIC MAN is old school and back when he was there that shit was mad ghetto, but to a certain extent they've cleaned it up..needless to say that it is a predominantly black school, but they got a bunch of crakkkas there too. PEACE fam.

adishakes@hotmail.com

AOL IM: adishakes

  

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k_orr
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Wed Sep-13-00 04:55 AM

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16. "Is this about DP's or black education?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Cause the Dp's might shed some light on cats that don't know, but I should hope that the vast majority of cats on Okayactivist are aware of the type of socialization and indoctrination that happens in school.

To paraphrase (as opposed to quote, cause I know how many blackstar/reflection eternal/kweli zealots are on okayplayer)
Kweli,"If you tore down this wicked system, what would you build in it's place?" (l-fudge's "what if")

I still got problems with what they say on this song. Math is useful for more than just adding up dollars. If you want to build a physical structure you need to know math (among other things). Pyramids couldn't have been built on the fly. Science, same thing. American History, can tell you a lot about what it takes to take over nations and decimate people. Bronte, Dickens, Shakespeare - tell you how the common and the elite euro-american tend to think and what they respect.

Studying American, British, Western European culture from their perspective gives you plenty of weapons and ammunition when it comes time to debate. But in order to shed light on things like that, I believe you need to have a multiple perspective, but also realize that you are dealing with the dominant way of thought.

The information is possibly useful, but often in the instruction various moral lessons are reinforced. The protestant work ethic...

peace
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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TinkyWinky
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Wed Sep-13-00 06:49 AM

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18. "watch it...."
In response to Reply # 16


          

American History, can
>tell you a lot about
>what it takes to take
>over nations and decimate people.

it can tell you quite a bit more than that, but i'll let this go for now so i can address:

> Bronte, Dickens, Shakespeare -
>tell you how the common
>and the elite euro-american tend
>to think and what they
>respect.

i'm sorry, but it can tell you a LOT more than that. one doesn't become a poet by having strong feelings. one becomes a poet by studying language. one doesn't become a great writer by having things to say. one becomes a great writer by studying language. now not all of yall are native english speakers, but most are. these authors (among others) teach you about the language that YOU speak. yes, they're dead white europeans. why does that make their influence less significant?

http://www.greatergood.com (hit two in one now)

i held out, but i finally put an IM in my sig. me and steve talking isht about biz markie:
Gigfog: He scares me alot
Gigfog: he's like king kong
Xkrh1X: LOL
Xkrh1X: you're fucked up
Gigfog: I saw him at the hotel with a biz markie sweater on LOL
Gigfog: I was like "why wear a sweater with your name on it?"
Xkrh1X: in case he forgets
Xkrh1X: lol
Gigfog: HAHAHAHa
Gigfog: just in case he gets lost..the police can contact his owner
Xkrh1X: yeah, you didn't see, but it has his address and a contact number on the back
Gigfog: hAHAHA
Xkrh1X: "if found, please call..."
Gigfog: and his proof of rabies vaccination?
Xkrh1X: LOL
Gigfog: man I am mean
Gigfog: LOL
Xkrh1X: yeah, you also may have just made my signature
Xkrh1X: lol

Stevelover and the purple Tubber: confusing freestyle suckas into a three-count pin

"Where the F*CK is my purse icon??????"

:::::::::::::
"And I know what the fuck an option quarterback is. He's the black QB under six feet that ends up being converted to wide receiver once he's selected on day two of the NFL draft because he can't hit the ocean from the edge of a boat."

--

  

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nahymsa
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Wed Sep-13-00 10:43 AM

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26. "Studying language"
In response to Reply # 18


          

Language is not stagnent.

While I agree that Dickens & Shakespeare are great writers one does not have to study them to be a great english writer. Also "great" is in the eye of the beholder, being that language changes, great then isn't necessarily great or even relevant now. One could argue that as much could be learned about mastering the English language from reading writers like Toni Morrison or Alice Walker, for example. They aren't always required reading like Shakespeare even though Shakespeare utilizes a dead form of english.

  

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k_orr
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Wed Sep-13-00 12:15 PM

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29. "but that's not what I'm saying"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

I recognize there is a value in teaching our children, as well as others, about non-european, non-western ideas.

But from a straight up, learn about your enemy and how he thinks and then use that information against him, I think the school the way it is can be very valuable.

That's of course assumes that you are also plotting to overthrow the states and set up your own regime based on your own set of values.

k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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janey
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30. "and..."
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

Just as Picasso studied and painted representational art as a foundation for creating Cubism, we too are better able to manipulate language (or to create our own, i.e., allegorical or poetic language) when we are armed with historical and contemporary examples from all perspectives.

Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

  

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TinkyWinky
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31. "to address everyone...."
In response to Reply # 30


          

starting with nahymsa: what you're saying is equivalent to saying "there's no reason to check for bambaataa or cold crush or kurtis blow or KRS-ONE or rakim because you can develop your flow, style, lyricism and approach by listening to mos def, common, kweli.... see the flaws in your argument? YOU may not like shakespeare, YOU (not just nahymsa, also k_orr and anybody else) may feel that he uses a dead form of english, that's YOUR opinion and YOU have a right to it. now, i love toni morrison, she's my favorite contemporary author. but shakespeare would write her into a corner, and what's more, joyce would write them both 6 feet under. overstand?

k_orr: i'm not knocking your feelings on this, but i don't consider these people my enemies. shit, i really LIKED some of my english teachers. seriously, you think they teach you calculus to brainwash you? did they brainwash me in 12th grade AP english by reading alexander pope, albert camus, shakespeare, chinua achebe, franz kafka, toni morrison, etc. etc.? no, these are things i value. non-european, non-western values are no less significant than european and western ones. but the reverse is true as well. as english speakers we can't afford to reject shakespeare simply because he's not politically correct. we can't throw keats aside because he didn't write anything regarding racial or social injustice. from some of the things i've heard on this site, you'd think every high school english class did a unit on "Mein Kampf."

janey, i think you've got the right idea here in your picasso analogy. to excel at anything, you must draw on all influences. i mean, who will have a stronger grounding in literary form and potency: someone who studies toni morrison, or someone who studies shakespeare AND toni morrison???

http://www.greatergood.com (hit two in one now)

i held out, but i finally put an IM in my sig. me and steve talking isht about biz markie:
Gigfog: He scares me alot
Gigfog: he's like king kong
Xkrh1X: LOL
Xkrh1X: you're fucked up
Gigfog: I saw him at the hotel with a biz markie sweater on LOL
Gigfog: I was like "why wear a sweater with your name on it?"
Xkrh1X: in case he forgets
Xkrh1X: lol
Gigfog: HAHAHAHa
Gigfog: just in case he gets lost..the police can contact his owner
Xkrh1X: yeah, you didn't see, but it has his address and a contact number on the back
Gigfog: hAHAHA
Xkrh1X: "if found, please call..."
Gigfog: and his proof of rabies vaccination?
Xkrh1X: LOL
Gigfog: man I am mean
Gigfog: LOL
Xkrh1X: yeah, you also may have just made my signature
Xkrh1X: lol

Stevelover and the purple Tubber: confusing freestyle suckas into a three-count pin

"Where the F*CK is my purse icon??????"

:::::::::::::
"And I know what the fuck an option quarterback is. He's the black QB under six feet that ends up being converted to wide receiver once he's selected on day two of the NFL draft because he can't hit the ocean from the edge of a boat."

--

  

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jsmooth995
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Wed Sep-13-00 03:50 PM

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32. "Word."
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

Well said, TinkyWinky.

I've never seen words more full of life then Shakespeare's. He is such a phenomenal artist, it would be a terrible shame to miss out on his works, no matter what your sociopolitical agenda.

Is Shakespeare's the only perspective you should get? Of course not.

Is his an essential perspective? Heck yeah. And I'm sure Toni Morrison would agree.

Jay Smooth
WBAI 99.5 FM in NY
http://www.hiphopmusic.com

"I don't NEED to be subliminable!" - George W. Bush

http://www.illdoctrine.com - where hip-hop vlogs?

  

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nahymsa
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Thu Sep-14-00 09:26 AM

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39. "No one is saying that shakespeare isn't a great writer"
In response to Reply # 32


          

Goddamn,

>I've never seen words more full of life then Shakespeare's.

That's you. That's my point. Other people have been effected by other authors JUST as much. Maybe more would have that same feeling about a different author if the entire school system shoved that author down the throats of a generations of impressionable children (including stating time & time again that this is the best english author ever).

H>e is such a phenomenal artist, it would be a >terrible shame to miss out on his works, no >matter what your sociopolitical agenda.

now see this is exactly my point, maybe there are other cultures that would view the approach to human emotion & issues Shakespeare writes about as negative & seek to lessen the popularity of his work. part of the reason you even know who he is is because certain people have deemed it necessary for you to learn about him. Had it not been a requirement (while other art isn't) perhaps you'd have a different perspective. The sociopolitical agenda of those who set the requirements for education may have as much to do with why children read Shakespeare now as the actual art. I think that was part of the point of Dead Prez.

  

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jsmooth995
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Thu Sep-14-00 11:28 AM

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49. "RE: No one is saying that shakespeare isn't a great writer"
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

Nahymsa I think we are basically in agreement here, on the basic point that kids ought to be exposed to a wide variety of cultural perspectives within their education.

>That's you. That's my point. Other
>people have been effected by
>other authors JUST as much.

I never said he is the only author worthy of being taught. I'm all in favor of exposing kids to a wide variety of literary perspectives. But why shouldn't Shakespeare be one of those? His greatness may be a matter of taste but his influence is indisputable, it looms in the work of countless writers.

>Maybe more would have that
>same feeling about a different
>author if the entire school
>system shoved that author down
>the throats of a generations
>of impressionable children (including stating
>time & time again that
>this is the best english
>author ever).

Well, just cuz they told us 10,000 times that he was important doesn't mean it ain't true. Shakespeare's prominence in Western literature, and the American literature that evolved from it, is not a myth concocted by grade-school propagandists. If you are saying that this European and (white) American literature should not be the sole focus of the curriculum, I'd certainly agree. But they ought not be ignored either.

Anyway, I think the way Shakespeare is "shoved down our throats" only serves to alienate most kids from his work. It is only when I came back to him as an adult, on my own terms, that I really appreciated how dope he is.

If Zora Neale Hurston had that stamp of approval from the Establishment, and was mandatory reading in every grade school, kids would assume she was outdated and corny, just like they do with Shakespeare.

I taught Special Ed for 6 years, and I think young folks are more cynical than you give them credit for. The more teachers tell kids "so-and-so is the greatest", the LESS likely they are to believe it, because kids of ALL colors see teachers as the oppressor.

> part of the reason
>you even know who he
>is is because certain people
>have deemed it necessary for
>you to learn about him.
>Had it not been a
>requirement (while other art isn't)
>perhaps you'd have a different
>perspective.

Yeah, like I said above I'd probably have been more open-minded and receptive.

>The sociopolitical agenda of
>those who set the requirements
>for education may have as
>much to do with why
>children read Shakespeare now as
>the actual art.

Perhaps. But my point was that the politics surrounding Shakespeare's status as required reading do nothing to alter the intrinsic artistic value of the literature itself.

All I'm saying is I think Shakespeare is the bomb, and it'd be a shame if folks don't give him a fair shot cuz he's seen as a Tool of the Oppressor.

Jay Smooth
WBAI 99.5 FM in NY
http://www.hiphopmusic.com

"I don't NEED to be subliminable!" - George W. Bush

http://www.illdoctrine.com - where hip-hop vlogs?

  

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nahymsa
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Thu Sep-14-00 12:09 PM

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55. "I agree"
In response to Reply # 49


          

I just don't think that you need to read Shakespeare to become a great english writer.

And I think the fact that Shakespeare used a now dead english form of english is probably the biggest obstacle to his work.

Peace

  

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nahymsa
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Thu Sep-14-00 09:10 AM

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35. "Shakespeare to English is not"
In response to Reply # 31


          

Bambaataa to hip hop or even Rakim/KRS to hip hop.

And using YOUR example, I'd bet that Big, JayZ or Rakim didn't have to study up on Bambaata in order to be great emcees.

There is no arguing that Shakespeare used a now dead form of English - who speaks or writes like that now? You don't. In fact the language has changed so much that the shit has to be practically translated in order to be read.

That being said, one does not have to study Shakespeare in order to be a great contemporary english writer. What is deemed important TO KNOW or STUDY is based on who's deciding what is to be valued. I like Shakespeare but I also know that he is not a NECESSITY for learning or mastering the english language as it is used today.

as for the part you address to K.orr... the fact is many schools (maybe most) don't teach Shakespeare ALONG with Morrison & Chinue Achebe. Often other perspectives & other authors are deliberately ignored. In part that is due to dominance on the part europeans who attempt to control what is considered best CULTURALLY on a global scale. Art (good or bad) is ALL about pinions...none of it is fact. What happens if/when the makeup of those in power changes & affects the cultural landscape? Eventually, Shakespeare 9as well as other European heroes) may not be valued as much.

  

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janey
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Thu Sep-14-00 09:18 AM

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38. "a thought"
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

There also may be some value in studying something in school that we're not interested in studying on our own. In other words, if I would not read it unless forced to do so and if I would not understand it without guidance, it might be a better choice for curriculum than something that I would read on my own with pleasure and understand without help.

Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

  

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nahymsa
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Thu Sep-14-00 09:38 AM

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41. "True..that's without question"
In response to Reply # 38


          

but Shakespeare is not the only author who's works can be explored & who children may not choose to read on their own. In fact, some children wouldn't chose to read anything at all if given the choice which is why its extremely important for us to have some control on what is mandatory high school curriculm. To include 2 or 3 works by Shakespeare other authors must be left out because there simply isn't time.

Now in either junior high or high school I had to read Things Fall Apart & Macbeth both of which I probably wouldn't have picked up on my own. Things Fall Apart to me resonated more deeply & still does. Not every school has Things Fall Apart in their curriculm but every school has Shakespeare as standard. Fortunately for me, the school I attended didn't just sweat Shakespeare & only european writers. lucky for me, my mom made me read books outside of the normal curriculm. How many other kids are that fortunate?

  

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janey
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Thu Sep-14-00 09:41 AM

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42. "True"
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

I really think that on a lot of these issues the bottom line comes down to the parents.

Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

  

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nahymsa
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Thu Sep-14-00 09:58 AM

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45. "True, but check what I'm saying."
In response to Reply # 42


          

>I really think that on a
>lot of these issues the
>bottom line comes down to
>the parents.

The kid who's parent doesn't teach him shit but sends him to school WILL read Shakespeare, will learn about classical music, etc. but won't necessarily read Morrison or Audre Lord or study Stevie Wonder.

The government playing defacto parent makes sure your child gets a full dose of european culture while its been a constant fight to include the cultural heritage of the rest of those that built this country.

>Peace.



  

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jsmooth995
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Thu Sep-14-00 12:03 PM

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53. "RE: True, but check what I'm saying."
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

Yep.

To me the bottom line is this:
No matter what books they give you in school, if those are the only books you ever read, you will be sorely lacking.

So if you don't cultivate an appetite for knowledge within your child, an intellectual curiousity and desire to read on his/her own, then the battle is already lost.


Jay Smooth
WBAI 99.5 FM in NY
http://www.hiphopmusic.com

"I don't NEED to be subliminable!" - George W. Bush

http://www.illdoctrine.com - where hip-hop vlogs?

  

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Oakley
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Thu Sep-14-00 09:47 AM

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43. "RE: Shakespeare to English is not"
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

I went to a Mostly white HS and college and was required to read Things Fall Apart twice!!!!!!!!

___________________________________
"WASP of the year: even if he isn�t a WASP, Oakley. Sailing? Check. In a yacht club? Check. Used the term �summer� as a verb instead of a noun? You betcha!" -thejerseytornado

  

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TinkyWinky
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Thu Sep-14-00 01:09 PM

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59. "what are you missing here???"
In response to Reply # 35


          

shakespeare IS to english literature what bam is to hip hop, probably indeed MUCH more. and IT'S NOT A DEAD FORM OF ENGLISH. now correct me if i'm wrong, but only one of us is presently minoring in sociolinguistics, and it's not you. and sure, shakespeare's not a necessity for knowing the english language as it is today. neither is toni morrison. both are absolutely VITAL to understanding the potentials for the english language. furthermore, it seems you're confusing literature with writing, but i'll let that slide, as again, i'm guessing only one of us is presently majoring in english literature....

http://www.greatergood.com (hit two in one now)

i held out, but i finally put an IM in my sig. me and steve talking isht about biz markie:
Gigfog: He scares me alot
Gigfog: he's like king kong
Xkrh1X: LOL
Xkrh1X: you're fucked up
Gigfog: I saw him at the hotel with a biz markie sweater on LOL
Gigfog: I was like "why wear a sweater with your name on it?"
Xkrh1X: in case he forgets
Xkrh1X: lol
Gigfog: HAHAHAHa
Gigfog: just in case he gets lost..the police can contact his owner
Xkrh1X: yeah, you didn't see, but it has his address and a contact number on the back
Gigfog: hAHAHA
Xkrh1X: "if found, please call..."
Gigfog: and his proof of rabies vaccination?
Xkrh1X: LOL
Gigfog: man I am mean
Gigfog: LOL
Xkrh1X: yeah, you also may have just made my signature
Xkrh1X: lol

Stevelover and the purple Tubber: confusing freestyle suckas into a three-count pin

"Where the F*CK is my purse icon??????"

:::::::::::::
"And I know what the fuck an option quarterback is. He's the black QB under six feet that ends up being converted to wide receiver once he's selected on day two of the NFL draft because he can't hit the ocean from the edge of a boat."

--

  

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nahymsa
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Fri Sep-15-00 03:18 AM

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61. "Shakespeare is to englis literature what"
In response to Reply # 59


          

Bam is to hip hop

But you nor I speak/write english in the form that Shakespeare uses in his plays...can we agree on that?

No I'm not an english lit major.

Are you saying that a person could not be a great english writer without having read and/or loved Shakespeare. If so, I disagree.

  

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TinkyWinky
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Fri Sep-15-00 05:36 AM

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63. "then...."
In response to Reply # 61


          

at least it seems you and i have found the source of the disagreement. from this point, there's nothing we can do, so i'll continue to draw on all sources open-mindedly, and others may reject the basis for modern literature as they see fit.

http://www.greatergood.com (hit two in one now)

i held out, but i finally put an IM in my sig. me and steve talking isht about biz markie:
Gigfog: He scares me alot
Gigfog: he's like king kong
Xkrh1X: LOL
Xkrh1X: you're fucked up
Gigfog: I saw him at the hotel with a biz markie sweater on LOL
Gigfog: I was like "why wear a sweater with your name on it?"
Xkrh1X: in case he forgets
Xkrh1X: lol
Gigfog: HAHAHAHa
Gigfog: just in case he gets lost..the police can contact his owner
Xkrh1X: yeah, you didn't see, but it has his address and a contact number on the back
Gigfog: hAHAHA
Xkrh1X: "if found, please call..."
Gigfog: and his proof of rabies vaccination?
Xkrh1X: LOL
Gigfog: man I am mean
Gigfog: LOL
Xkrh1X: yeah, you also may have just made my signature
Xkrh1X: lol

Stevelover and the purple Tubber: confusing freestyle suckas into a three-count pin

"Where the F*CK is my purse icon??????"

:::::::::::::
"And I know what the fuck an option quarterback is. He's the black QB under six feet that ends up being converted to wide receiver once he's selected on day two of the NFL draft because he can't hit the ocean from the edge of a boat."

--

  

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Dove
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32915 posts
Fri Oct-06-00 07:51 PM

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75. "Shakespeare's writing"
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

Shakespeare's style of writing is called English 'iambic pentameter'
-iambic is a metrical foot consisting of one short syllable followed by one long one in Greek or Latin verse - or one unaccented syllable followed by one accented one
-pentameter is a line containing 5 metrical feet or measures.

Although people in Shakespeare's time themes did use the words thy, thou, wilt, etc. - they did not speak with the same meter as how Shakespeare wrote. He used his writing style to create poetical drama.

Just wanted to add that.
Dove
~Sheepish Lordess of Chaos~


"One day all them bags gon' get in your way..." Erykah

"You can't talk your way out of problems you behave yourself into" ~ S. Covey

Email: Tygereyz67@aol.com
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nahymsa
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Thu Sep-14-00 09:12 AM

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36. "I understand"
In response to Reply # 29


          

But sending your kids to be schooled by your oppressors without a system in place to counteract that education is very dangerous.


  

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BooDaah
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Thu Sep-14-00 09:16 AM

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37. "counteract/suppliment/compliment?"
In response to Reply # 36


          

just asking.

me

  

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nahymsa
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Thu Sep-14-00 11:19 AM

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48. "counteract sometimes"
In response to Reply # 37


          

compliment sometimes, depending on what is being taught.

There really is no need to counteract the teaching of 1 + 1 = 2.

There is a need to counteract the teaching that classical music is the only form of music worthy of studying & the best, that Thanksgiving was all good for everybody, that the internment of japanese americans was a small thing & necessary, that Columbus "discovered" America.

  

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BooDaah
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Thu Sep-14-00 11:31 AM

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50. "just making sure"
In response to Reply # 48


          

i personally think suppliment. what the schools teach is what they deem necessary for someone to know (in society's best interests). it's up to parents to add what THEY think is necessary to add, so that child will have a more fully developed perspective.

just making sure.

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
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-----------------------------
Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
Step1:inform yourself step/Step2:inform others/Step3:discuss the problem/Step4: DISCUSS SOLUTIONS/Step5:EXECUTE SOLUTIONS/Step6:evaluate the results/Step7:start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
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nahymsa
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Thu Sep-14-00 11:47 AM

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51. "who decides what's best to know"
In response to Reply # 50


          

and what in society's best interest is?

a lot of what is taught in school is not really "factual". Decisions are made by "educators" many of whom have their own personal agendas...it ranges from what dictionaries are used to what textbooks are acceptable to the curriculm. We know for that information has been atlered & withheld to give a slant that is less favorable to non-white americans.

We have to do more than supliment what is currently taught, we have to a certain amount of control to bring balance. We pay for these schools, its our right to be able to send our kids to them with the knowledge that they will receive WHAT WE FEEL is a proper education.

It seems like everybody is so ready to believe that the schools teach what is best & that its up to the parents to fill in the blanks. Why can't the schools fill in the blanks, that's their job? And if our kids aren't being properly taught, its our responsibility to make the schools teach them or put them in a school that does. Why send you kid to a school where they teach lies or openly discriminate (how many of our boys are sent into special ed for the exact behavior that is excused in white children?) then talk about "well we'll fix it at the house". That's crazy.

  

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BooDaah
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Thu Sep-14-00 12:01 PM

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52. "RE: who decides what's best to know"
In response to Reply # 51


          

>and what in society's best interest
>is?

your local schoolboard i guess. which is why it's important to know what is being pumped into your kids hear for 8 hours a day. don't get me started on the power of the individual to influence the how and what of society. i just finished commenting on yet another player who wants to talk about not voting.


>a lot of what is taught
>in school is not really
>"factual"....

i concur with all this. my point is that as a parent you need to take an active role in your child's education and not be contempt to bitch about "they schools" cause they are YOUR schools too.

>It seems like everybody is so
>ready to believe that the
>schools teach what is best

i said best for them in the pont of view of society. society thinks it's cool to thnk columbus is a hero and that america was besieged because of manifest destiny (for example). my point is that as a parent YOU need to be aware of what your child is being taught and either fight to have it changed (a long and hard battle) or to sit your kid down and tell them to listen to what they're taught through a filter -- thereby taching them how to tell the difference between truth and propaganda.

>Why can't the
>schools fill in the blanks,
>that's their job?

again i agree, but if you're going to "fight the system" you better acknowledge that it is just that -- a fight. and one that you may not win. wither way, that child is STILL your responsibility and youneed to make sure it learns what you want it to (or at least has exposure to it).

>Why send
>you kid to a school
>where they teach lies or
>openly discriminate (how many of
>our boys are sent into
>special ed for the exact
>behavior that is excused in
>white children?) then talk about
>"well we'll fix it at
>the house". That's crazy.

what choice do you have? home schooling? private school? no. you can do all the things mentioned before, and continue to put bandages and medicine of knowledge on top of whatever scars the school system has/will put on them.

why are you fussing w/ me? i agree with you.

------QUOTE STARTS HERE------
BooDaah-OkayActivist Moderator
** PLEASE READ THE POSTING GUIDELINES:
http://www.okayplayer.com/guidelines.html
-----------------------------
Sister SheRise's Activist Stew Recipe:
Step1:inform yourself step/Step2:inform others/Step3:discuss the problem/Step4: DISCUSS SOLUTIONS/Step5:EXECUTE SOLUTIONS/Step6:evaluate the results/Step7:start over at 1 until desired result is accomplished.
-----------------------------

  

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nahymsa
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Thu Sep-14-00 12:04 PM

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54. "I ain't fussin' - sorry"
In response to Reply # 52


          

it just comes out that way.

I'm a big fan of home schooling & setting up our own schools. They say home schooled children actually do equal to or better than other students.

What's a private school but a type of home school in a way?


  

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janey
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Thu Sep-14-00 12:13 PM

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56. "But"
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

if we can't rely on parents to supplement their children's education, as we agreed above, do we really want to encourage parents to take over their education altogether? Eeek.

Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

  

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nahymsa
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Thu Sep-14-00 12:46 PM

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57. "the parent that chooses to home school"
In response to Reply # 56


          

has probably decided to focus on their kids education & would therefore do a good job.

So far, the stats are showing that kids in home schools do real well. the only problem is that in a 2 income economy, it will be very difficult for lower income or single parent families to home school. The other alternative is our own private schools - it works for the catholics.

  

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janey
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Thu Sep-14-00 09:36 AM

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40. "RE: I understand"
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

Query whether you want the system that counteracts the oppressors to be administered by the oppressors. Because it seems to me that you're arguing in favor of expanding the cultural sweep of the public school system as a means of balancing the oppression, but also categorizing the public school systems as the oppressor.

Maybe I'm reading you wrong, however. Feel free to correct me if I am.

Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

  

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nahymsa
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Thu Sep-14-00 09:52 AM

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44. "We're in a bad situation"
In response to Reply # 40


          

black (that's who I'm generally speaking of but it can apply to others) people pay taxes to fund public schools, we should be able to send our kids there. But at the same time, we don't control the school system & that affects what is taught & how its taught & how our kids are judged, graded, & labeled.

If we (en masse) remove our kids from public schools & place them into our own private schools we still must pay the public system as well as fund our own. Also,since tend not to own our own, we can't hire our graduates. The issue then becomes will those outside our community recognize the credentials we've established. We'd still have to pass tests set up by others. In the case of certain standardized tests this could be a problem, less for math than for verbal/written. A lot of the concerns with standardized tests have to do with culture specific type questions.


  

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janey
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46. "so it's a vicious circle"
In response to Reply # 44


  

          

but I have to tell you straight out that I am NOT in favor of segregated schools until the university level. I think that in order for us to achieve any sort of understanding between the many races in this country but particularly between Black and white (sorry KoalaLove), one of the most important steps is for little kids to learn together, play together, get to know each other while they're still too young (I hope) to have been too badly affected by society's or their parents' stereotypes.

I know that this is swinging out on a tangent from just one thing that you said, and I agree with your response to my remark above about the parents being the bottom line -- we have to watch out for the kids whose parents for whatever reason can't take responsibility for pointing their child toward books or toward Black authors or you name it. At the same time, what I'm saying here is that I don't think that the answer is to create an isolated culture within American society, with separate schools, separate accreditation standards, separate businesses, etc., even if it were possible. I don't think that's a desirable outcome. Do you?

I mean, I strongly favor community support -- given a choice between a Black owned business and a whatever-owned business, I'll choose the Black-owned business, but not because I want to put the whatever-owned business out of business. Instead I support the Black-owned business in order to see it thrive and prosper. See the distinction?

Let me try it from this one more side and then give up and get some lunch. We're all here together. I support an inclusive reading list, but I also think that this is more than a Black/white issue -- there are a lot of Chinese kids in my neighborhood, a lot of Hispanic kids. I'd like to make sure that they feel like a part of things, too, but I don't think it's necessary for the local teachers to teach the Chinese kids about Chinese New Year, because they get it at home, so I can't turn around and insist that they teach the Black kids about Kwanzaa, nahmean?

Sorry this is all garbled.

Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

  

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nahymsa
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Thu Sep-14-00 11:12 AM

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47. "Integrated schools maybe important"
In response to Reply # 46


          

I just don't know when it should happen.

I went to a black college & frankly, I think they better prepare black students for life as a minority in the US both in their approach to academics & the sense of community & unity they encourage.

A think preschool and primary education is not a good place to have your child as the minority (being that we're only about 13% of the population, most likely we will be a speck of pepper in a bowl of mostly flour in an "integrated" school). Its important to remember that even when different kids are "friends" at the elementary, that changes at about 13. All the playing together in the world has little to do with the social pressures of interacting as young adults of different races (many parents change their "we are the world tune" when kids get past 13. And also, at that age kids become very aware self, racism, sexism, etc.

Probably the best time for integration is at the junior and/or high school level.

>I'm saying here is that I don't think that the
>answer is to create an isolated culture within American society, with separate schools, separate accreditation standards, separate businesses, etc.

Well at this time there already is seperate schools, seperate standards, businesses, etc. The only difference is that blacks haven't established our own so that we are a force to be reckoned with. Its impossible to negotiate from a position of perpetual weakness. I really don't see anyone how can be self sufficient if they don't have their own. A black run school doesn't assume that whites can't attend. The question is would they want too?

>I don't think that's a desirable outcome. Do you?

The outcome I'm looking for is for black people to be self determining. That can't happen if we MUST get our education, jobs, food, etc from white people (or any other people). Historically, its been shown that we can't depend on anyone's sense of fairness or good nature to be treated with respect or given equal opportunity.

>given a choice between a Black owned business
>and a whatever-owned business, I'll choose the Black-owned business, but >not because I want to
>put the whatever-owned business out of business. Instead I support the Black-owned business in order to see it thrive
>and prosper. See the distinction?

If it doesn't matter then why would you want to see a black owned business thrive & prosper? I assume that if we all support black owned businesses that eventually that money will be recycled into our own communities if we had the ability to buy & sell to our own. Unfortunately, much of what we buy (from food, clothing, shelter, services) isn't sold by blacks who live in our communities, hire from our communities, etc. My idea of a strong black nation is one where Thompson & Thompon manufactures a necessity & can hire other blacks to help make that product. Then we trade with Wong & Wong or Cohen & Cohen who manufactures something we need. Right now that ain't happening.

>I also think that this is more than a >black/white issue -- there are a lot
>of Chinese kids in my neighborhood, a lot of >Hispanic kids.

of course. But you notice that certain groups do educate their own. The elite/powerful of every group send their kids to schools which promote their own cultural heritage & value systems. Why shouldn't we?

>I don't think it's necessary for the local
>teachers to teach the Chinese kids about Chinese New Year

why not, most kids learn about Thanksgiving (for example) from a very European perspective? If we're going to abandon culture specific education, it should apply to all not just noneuropean culture. Especially in a "melting pot" society.

  

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janey
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Thu Sep-14-00 12:58 PM

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58. "lots to think about"
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

>I went to a black college
>& frankly, I think they
>better prepare black students for
>life as a minority in
>the US both in their
>approach to academics & the
>sense of community & unity
>they encourage.

Do note that I said that I don't support segregated schools until university. Opinion only of course, but I think that people are a lot better prepared for lots of things once they reach the college level and will have somewhat of a better perspective from which to view the world. Too young and I think we're fostering and solidifying artificial distinctions and creating boundaries.

>
>A think preschool and primary education
>is not a good place
>to have your child as
>the minority (being that we're
>only about 13% of the
>population, most likely we will
>be a speck of pepper
>in a bowl of mostly
>flour in an "integrated" school).
> Its important to remember
>that even when different kids
>are "friends" at the elementary,
>that changes at about 13.
>All the playing together in
>the world has little to
>do with the social pressures
>of interacting as young adults
>of different races (many parents
>change their "we are the
>world tune" when kids get
>past 13. And also, at
>that age kids become very
>aware self, racism, sexism, etc.

Yeah, 13 is a tough age. That's actually my favorite age in kids. They can be absolute MONSTERS but the thing is that they are so completely screwed up (physically and emotionally with all them hormones rearing their ugly heads) that they don't know who THEY are much less who anyone else is. I see a lot of kids that age lashing out at anyone, trying to break free of parents, trying to fit in with school cliques, etc. My heart just goes out to anyone who is 13. But I also really like it that they're snotty, they talk back, they're not those sugar sweet little 5 year olds who want a kiss from their teacher every morning. Ugh! You're right, there are lots of challenges at that age.

>Probably the best time for integration
>is at the junior and/or
>high school level.

See, I think it's too late then. I think you've already set up this barrier that says, "Fundamentally you're different" to each group. I personally believe that there is a fundamental human essence that transcends race, and cultural stuff is overlaid on top of that, and history, and gender stuff, and all that, but FUNDAMENTALLY (excuse my yelling, I'm really just trying to italicize), we have human existence in common, we have emotions in common, we have hopes in common (they may not be the same hopes, but everyone hopes for something). So to separate the little squishy impressionable kissy kids from each other based on race is going to build walls rather than build understanding. Little ones are the least racist. And those little kid impressions are lasting. Yeah, they get weird at puberty, yeah, but I think they'll be one hell of a lot less weird with each other ultimately if they spend time together rather than get segregated.

>Well at this time there already
>is seperate schools, seperate standards,
>businesses, etc. The only difference
>is that blacks haven't established
>our own so that we
>are a force to be
>reckoned with. Its impossible to
>negotiate from a position of
>perpetual weakness.

But your hypothesis in a previous post acknowledges that credentials are a possible issue -- why create further weakness? Nahmean?

I really don't
>see anyone how can be
>self sufficient if they don't
>have their own. A black
>run school doesn't assume that
>whites can't attend. The question
>is would they want too?

I don't know where you're going with that.

>The outcome I'm looking for is
>for black people to be
>self determining. That can't happen
>if we MUST get our
>education, jobs, food, etc from
>white people (or any other
>people). Historically, its been
>shown that we can't depend
>on anyone's sense of fairness
>or good nature to be
>treated with respect or given
>equal opportunity.

That's true, but does that mandate a separate universe? Won't that make things worse?

>If it doesn't matter then why
>would you want to see
>a black owned business thrive
>& prosper?

I'm not saying it doesn't matter; I'm saying that I want all people to have the oppportunity to build a good life for themselves, and if the status quo would suggest that the Big Guy is going to beat out the Little Guy, or the majority overwhelm the minority, I'll swing my business in such a way as to try to even the balance. I was trying to draw a distinction between, on the one hand, purposely directing my business to a specific enterprise (a positive purpose) and, on the other hand, purposely withdrawing my business from another enterprise (a negative purpose).

I assume that
>if we all support black
>owned businesses that eventually that
>money will be recycled into
>our own communities if we
>had the ability to buy
>& sell to our own.

Why limit it? Why keep this goal in a single community? Isn't it a greater good to support Black owned businesses so that they can grow and prosper and serve a wider arena, so that some day we no longer have to consciously direct money toward our community in order for it to survive? See what I mean?

>Unfortunately, much of what we
>buy (from food, clothing, shelter,
>services) isn't sold by blacks
>who live in our communities,
>hire from our communities, etc.
>My idea of a strong
>black nation is one where
>Thompson & Thompon manufactures a
>necessity & can hire other
>blacks to help make that
>product. Then we trade with
>Wong & Wong or Cohen
>& Cohen who manufactures something
>we need. Right now that
>ain't happening.

Yes, you see what I mean. There are some strong Black-owned businesses, and I keep thinking I'm going to find the last Forbes that ran the Black Forbes 500.

>of course. But you notice that
>certain groups do educate their
>own.

Yeah, they invest their kids with cultural pride and heritage at home.

The elite/powerful of every
>group send their kids to
>schools which promote their own
>cultural heritage & value systems.
>Why shouldn't we?

Well, you and I see this differently, I think. I think a lot of private elementary schools are based, not on cultural heritage issues (though many are based on religious issues), but more so on a feeling that the teaching in the public schools is low quality. Seems to me that could be race neutral (Not that it is, necessarily, but that it could be)

>why not, most kids learn about
>Thanksgiving (for example) from a
>very European perspective?

I did, I guess you did, but I'm hearing from My Boyfriend The Teacher that things are a little different now, it's not quite as biased. They do teach about the complexities that were overlooked when we were little -- in an age appropriate manner, of course.

If we're
>going to abandon culture specific
>education, it should apply to
>all not just noneuropean culture.
>Especially in a "melting pot"
>society.

But Thanksgiving is historically an American holiday. I'll grant you that Thanksgiving in general is euro-centric, like there was no America prior to the Europeans finding it, but it originated on this soil. So given limited resources and limited time, I would rather see little kids taught stuff that's historically American than confuse them too much too young with too many different stories (that being said, here in SF, most of the public schools do study the Chinese New Year b/c the Chinese presence in SF has been a strong and powerful one throughout the city's history, so I guess I take back what I said before about not caring if the kids learn about that in school.)


Peace.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

  

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nahymsa
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Fri Sep-15-00 04:41 AM

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62. "RE: lots to think about - this is long"
In response to Reply # 58


          

>Too young and I think we're fostering and
>solidifying artificial distinctions and creating
>boundaries.

We're living in a society that hates on people of color. By placing a child in a setting where he/she is the minority being taught by adults who themselves more than likely hold racist idealogy (consciously or not), you may be setting that child up for failure. I think we have to get ourselves together seperately prior to building a system of interaction without any power to control that system from our end (which is what we have now).

>>Probably the best time for integration
>>is at the junior and/or
>>high school level.
>
>See, I think it's too late then. I think you've
>already set up this barrier that says "Fundamentally you're different"
>to each group.

there's nothing wrong with being different so I don't see that as a problem. I don't think we're saying people are FUNDAMENTALLY (I'm not yelling either )different by making sure our kids have a solid understanding of who they are & a sense of unity/community prior to involving them with the children of people who may hate them (literally). At 11, 12, 13 & beyond a child who's been given a sense of pride, cultural heritage, a solid educational foundation, etc. can then deal from a position of strength & confidence.

Also, I'm not saying that our schools should be exclusionary. I'm just saying that black/minority run schools would definetly be run with our best interest in mind. Anyone could attend (like at black colleges) IF they choose.

>But your hypothesis in a previous post >acknowledges that credentials are a possible >issue -- why create further weakness? Nahmean?

Well if we establish our own structures that acknowledge our own credentials that wouldn't be a problem. Also, historically, black colleges (for example) have presented the best black candidates to the world. From what I've read black children in black run independant schools are out performing their black & white peers.


>>The outcome I'm looking for is for black people >>to be self determining. That can't happen
>>if we MUST get our education, jobs, food, etc from white people (or any other
>>people).
>
>That's true, but does that mandate
>a separate universe? Won't
>that make things worse?

How can we be self sufficient if we refuse to take care of ourselves first. As I said, no one can negotiate from a position of perpetual weakness. We have to have something to barter with. The very nature of trade requires that you have yours & I have mine and both see value in the other.

>I'll swing my business in such a way as to try >to even the balance. I was trying to draw a
>distinction between, on the one hand, purposely directing my business to a specific enterprise (a
>positive purpose) and, on the other hand, purposely withdrawing my business from another enterprise (a negative purpose).

ma, by purposely directing your business to a specific enterprise you ARE purposely withdrawing your business from another. Every choice we make on what we buy, etc. is rearranging the distribution of dough ie power. If I walk past the korean deli to go to the black grocery store, that choice will affect both businesses. IF we are going to participate in capitalism we have to realize that alliances are made that deliberately exclude us.
>
>I assume that if we all support black
>>owned businesses that eventually that
>>money will be recycled into >our own >communities if we had the ability to buy
>>& sell to our own.
>
>Why limit it? Why keep this goal in a single
>community? Isn't it a greater good to support >Black owned businesses so that they can grow and >prosper and serve a wider arena, so
>that some day we no longer have to consciously >direct money toward our community in
>order for it to survive?

If we are going to particiapte in capitalism, we will ALWAYS have to consciously direct money towards our communities. Serving a wider area doesn't help if more money leaves our community that comes in. White dollars & everybody else's dollars gets recycled BACK into the same white hands. That is really one of the biggest problems in america. The goal is to have blac/minority dollars recycled into OUR hands & then add the dollars from outside communities to better our position. I could care less (for example) how many white people buy Fubu, hip hop music, etc. in fact I want them to shop till they drop. But then that money has to stay in the our hands & that's where we're fucked up because we don't (have been deliberately blocked from) owning, manufacturing, producing any necessities & barely any "luxury" items. Whatever money we make goes right back out again to the very people that are discriminating against us. We are left to beg for jobs & file lawsuits. And what's worse is that we don't have any military position at all.

here's an example: a while back these lawyers from a native american reservation in the midwest researched their treaty US & discovered they had legal right to set up a toll tax on their land & attempted to exercise that right. This money would be used to community revitalization. Well, this meant that the citizens (mostly white) of the surrounding areas who regularly crossed the reservation had to pay a fee to pass thru (which they did frequently). Of course they refused because this would severly impact their standard of living (additional expense means less discretionary income). The Natives stated that the toll had to be paid or no one would be allowed to cross. The Governor of the state then threatened to call out the national guard to force the reservation to let people thru, effectively using violence to squash the attempts of the NAs to better their own economic position. The case of course is in the US courts now & will take years to settle. On top of that, the court system the NAs are appealing to is their enemy with very little incentive to be favorable to the NAs. The Native Americans are right back where they started.

>The elite/powerful of every group send their >kids to schools which promote their own
>>cultural heritage & value systems.
>>Why shouldn't we?
>
>Well, you and I see this differently, I think. >I think a lot of private elementary schools are >based, not on cultural heritage issues (though
>many are based on religious issues), but more so >on a feeling that the teaching in the public >schools is low quality.

many private schools were in existence long before the public school system started to suck. Religion is inherently part of cultural heritage, shit the only reason many of us are Christian, Catholic or Muslim now is because our ancestors were forced to be.

My point is that public or private schools run by non minorities have very little incentive to be impartial & many aren't.

>But Thanksgiving is historically an American
>holiday.

Thanksgiving is a tradition that's been passed on & spread by the dominant culture. If Native Americans & others had a position of strength in this country, it might not be celebrated at all. For many people, including the Native Americans in my fam, the holiday is a time of mourning. Given the choice, I'd probably get rid of the holiday & establish one for Native Americans similar to a Memorial Day.

>I would rather see little kids taught stuff >that's historically American than confuse them
>too much too young with too many different stories.

Its not just about the information, its how its being taught. To teach young kids that the Civil War was fought to free the slaves for example is wrong. Yet ask the average 12 year old & that's probably what they'll say.

  

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nebt_het
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Thu Sep-14-00 05:15 AM

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33. "i lived the life you talkin"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

(c) Beenie Siegel


I personally fought with teachers on the shit they was teachin in school and was suspended countless times not that i hit them or nothing but i spoke up and questioned it all and even did my own research.
And the truth is the school system sucks butt.
My sone is in first grade and basically they teachin are kids to be fools and "12 step brainwash camp" Dead Prez!

There are schools for childern from 6months old where they teach them algebra why? cuz a childs mind can assimulate anything you give them so our school teach kids A-B-C 1-2-3 instead of takin words like cup ball and showing themthe words they speak and put a visual they go anf give them letters which aint shit without the words you make.

and yes i have had racist teachers and elitist teachers who took the position of "the Great White Hope" to a group of 30 young brown minds.

I know black teachers who will tell you you cannot have too many Black teacher in schools the quouta for PA is 1/3 of the faculty!!!!
I know this shit is fact i have ties with black principles and teachers who have been tryin to fight this shit for years and no matter how many Degrees they get they dont wan tthem in the schools to teach the brown kids the truth from a prospective that relates to there lives.

Who White wants to be a millionaire? how many balck folk been on that show?

Survivor? Get rid of the niggers first!


Big Brother? Out the colored!

Why you ask Money is power!
Knowledge is power!

so why give my son the education like a lil white boy would get trust me there curriculum is 50 times better than the urban schools!
They got better facilites extra curricular activities my son aint got shit not even a text book!

I went to SOS university (school of self) and study Street Life Real Life 101!

i aint gain shit from a school education!
i learned all from my own reading research and education from elders who i met and guided me!


"They schools cant teach us shit we want freedom we tryin to get all we can get all my highschool teachers can suck my dick teachin my white man lies straight bull shit!"

dead prez






"the complexity of simplicity" Flo and me

"everything and nothing" Me and Flo


http://www.tankgreen.com
The revolution has tits and clits and drinks earl grey baby


need some new vinyl?
http://www.recordkingdom.com/

grey effin matter to this guy
http://www.h8r.com h8...h8 on..

Factology -vs- theology
http://www.factology.com

Order of the Ancient Ones
http://egiptianmysteries.com

"i soar up above you oh mortals
for i have kissed the sky as a falcon
i am not for the land i am for the stars...." Prayer of Osiris

  

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kec
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24829 posts
Thu Sep-14-00 06:29 AM

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34. "the disparity"
In response to Reply # 0


          

first of all before i even comment on the content being taught let's argue about how blacks and low income students don't even get taught at the same level. urban and rural schools are lacking in the necessary resources for them to succesfully move on to higher education. that's my biggest beef with the school system.

also schools do not teach students how to survive nor do they educate them outside of academics. what good is it to be the smartest kid but no have no common sense or any other skills (street smarts ie.) individuals that possess other qualities are usually function better in society and are able to survive under any conditions....
oNe
~kEc~
change is inevitable

http://illkec.wordpress.com/

  

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AfricanHerbsman

Fri Sep-15-00 02:32 AM

  
60. "short-term/long-term.."
In response to Reply # 0


          


man, I'm with dead prez 100% because I don't feel like they schools really are teaching us what we need to survive, not just as a people - as a planet too.

mikeone's 'dezionize africa' post makes me think of how much wisdom's been lost from native cultures all over the planet. hell, egyptians were human - but the pyramids are a mystery that we've got to relearn.

parents AND society should teach kids the mathematics of giving back/sustaining, instead of only getting/taking immediate rewards.
______________________________________

seize your time! - marley/wailers

check yourself, Q! - bishop, 'juice'

  

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Bambu
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Tue Sep-19-00 01:31 PM

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70. "Let's make it practical..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

Knowledge is ALWAYS a good thing. The school system (high school, middle school, grammar school) in the community shelters children, rather than teaching them. They hide facts that are going to be useful in their everyday existence and mental elevation. As an adult, I've used 45% of what I've learned in High School because only 45% of it applied to me -- and that goes for most of you innercity Okayplayers. They want robots rather than free-thinkers. Fuck algebra, teach me how to stop hating my own people!
They schools can't teach us shit -- my people need freedom...
Freedom,
Bambu

  

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urbgriot
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11445 posts
Fri Oct-06-00 11:24 AM

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73. "RE: Let's make it practical..."
In response to Reply # 70


          

Public Education should not be teaching our children morals and values that is the job for the parents and the private community.
Public Education is just that free education offered to everyone whether white/black, inner city or suburbs, my issue is not with what the government provides black people it is what we provide for ourselves. Public education should not be teaching heads how to rescue our communities the are designed for academics not for social change. It is up to us to teach our kids not the kids. I am tired of us complaining about what the goverment is or is not doing for community.. eff them let us do for self.
I do not agree with Dead Prez on two points, I feel they have a limited view of certain subjects.
Education &
Economics
Are my two main issues.
Education is key and it is principle that someone soaks up as much game as they can about everything, especially this system that we are subjected to of Western Culture. now peep game
This is the challenge that we have for ourselves can we form learning centers and cultural center in our community with the design to teack our children knowledge of self and the math.
We can not expect government to teach us these principles or for them to support these principles. Man I can go on about this because it goes into other issues with have as a people. Bottom line is until we have a successful alternative then we should not have any complaints.

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