>Too young and I think we're fostering and
>solidifying artificial distinctions and creating
>boundaries.

We're living in a society that hates on people of color. By placing a child in a setting where he/she is the minority being taught by adults who themselves more than likely hold racist idealogy (consciously or not), you may be setting that child up for failure. I think we have to get ourselves together seperately prior to building a system of interaction without any power to control that system from our end (which is what we have now).

>>Probably the best time for integration
>>is at the junior and/or
>>high school level.
>
>See, I think it's too late then. I think you've
>already set up this barrier that says "Fundamentally you're different"
>to each group.

there's nothing wrong with being different so I don't see that as a problem. I don't think we're saying people are FUNDAMENTALLY (I'm not yelling either :-) )different by making sure our kids have a solid understanding of who they are & a sense of unity/community prior to involving them with the children of people who may hate them (literally). At 11, 12, 13 & beyond a child who's been given a sense of pride, cultural heritage, a solid educational foundation, etc. can then deal from a position of strength & confidence.

Also, I'm not saying that our schools should be exclusionary. I'm just saying that black/minority run schools would definetly be run with our best interest in mind. Anyone could attend (like at black colleges) IF they choose.

>But your hypothesis in a previous post >acknowledges that credentials are a possible >issue -- why create further weakness? Nahmean?

Well if we establish our own structures that acknowledge our own credentials that wouldn't be a problem. Also, historically, black colleges (for example) have presented the best black candidates to the world. From what I've read black children in black run independant schools are out performing their black & white peers.


>>The outcome I'm looking for is for black people >>to be self determining. That can't happen
>>if we MUST get our education, jobs, food, etc from white people (or any other
>>people).
>
>That's true, but does that mandate
>a separate universe? Won't
>that make things worse?

How can we be self sufficient if we refuse to take care of ourselves first. As I said, no one can negotiate from a position of perpetual weakness. We have to have something to barter with. The very nature of trade requires that you have yours & I have mine and both see value in the other.

>I'll swing my business in such a way as to try >to even the balance. I was trying to draw a
>distinction between, on the one hand, purposely directing my business to a specific enterprise (a
>positive purpose) and, on the other hand, purposely withdrawing my business from another enterprise (a negative purpose).

ma, by purposely directing your business to a specific enterprise you ARE purposely withdrawing your business from another. Every choice we make on what we buy, etc. is rearranging the distribution of dough ie power. If I walk past the korean deli to go to the black grocery store, that choice will affect both businesses. IF we are going to participate in capitalism we have to realize that alliances are made that deliberately exclude us.
>
>I assume that if we all support black
>>owned businesses that eventually that
>>money will be recycled into >our own >communities if we had the ability to buy
>>& sell to our own.
>
>Why limit it? Why keep this goal in a single
>community? Isn't it a greater good to support >Black owned businesses so that they can grow and >prosper and serve a wider arena, so
>that some day we no longer have to consciously >direct money toward our community in
>order for it to survive?

If we are going to particiapte in capitalism, we will ALWAYS have to consciously direct money towards our communities. Serving a wider area doesn't help if more money leaves our community that comes in. White dollars & everybody else's dollars gets recycled BACK into the same white hands. That is really one of the biggest problems in america. The goal is to have blac/minority dollars recycled into OUR hands & then add the dollars from outside communities to better our position. I could care less (for example) how many white people buy Fubu, hip hop music, etc. in fact I want them to shop till they drop. But then that money has to stay in the our hands & that's where we're fucked up because we don't (have been deliberately blocked from) owning, manufacturing, producing any necessities & barely any "luxury" items. Whatever money we make goes right back out again to the very people that are discriminating against us. We are left to beg for jobs & file lawsuits. And what's worse is that we don't have any military position at all.

here's an example: a while back these lawyers from a native american reservation in the midwest researched their treaty US & discovered they had legal right to set up a toll tax on their land & attempted to exercise that right. This money would be used to community revitalization. Well, this meant that the citizens (mostly white) of the surrounding areas who regularly crossed the reservation had to pay a fee to pass thru (which they did frequently). Of course they refused because this would severly impact their standard of living (additional expense means less discretionary income). The Natives stated that the toll had to be paid or no one would be allowed to cross. The Governor of the state then threatened to call out the national guard to force the reservation to let people thru, effectively using violence to squash the attempts of the NAs to better their own economic position. The case of course is in the US courts now & will take years to settle. On top of that, the court system the NAs are appealing to is their enemy with very little incentive to be favorable to the NAs. The Native Americans are right back where they started.

>The elite/powerful of every group send their >kids to schools which promote their own
>>cultural heritage & value systems.
>>Why shouldn't we?
>
>Well, you and I see this differently, I think. >I think a lot of private elementary schools are >based, not on cultural heritage issues (though
>many are based on religious issues), but more so >on a feeling that the teaching in the public >schools is low quality.

many private schools were in existence long before the public school system started to suck. Religion is inherently part of cultural heritage, shit the only reason many of us are Christian, Catholic or Muslim now is because our ancestors were forced to be.

My point is that public or private schools run by non minorities have very little incentive to be impartial & many aren't.

>But Thanksgiving is historically an American
>holiday.

Thanksgiving is a tradition that's been passed on & spread by the dominant culture. If Native Americans & others had a position of strength in this country, it might not be celebrated at all. For many people, including the Native Americans in my fam, the holiday is a time of mourning. Given the choice, I'd probably get rid of the holiday & establish one for Native Americans similar to a Memorial Day.

>I would rather see little kids taught stuff >that's historically American than confuse them
>too much too young with too many different stories.

Its not just about the information, its how its being taught. To teach young kids that the Civil War was fought to free the slaves for example is wrong. Yet ask the average 12 year old & that's probably what they'll say.