I may be late, but I don't care!!!<P>I have harbored a secret crush on Thought since back in the early 90's...much like a small child.<P>Today I read that source interview where he actually CURSED QUEENS. <P>I'm sure this has been discussed in an earlier forum weeks ago...please update me on what Thought had to say in defense of calling women "bitches" in that article.<P>That really disappointed me, because I thought he was different. It's a real letdown when you find out that no matter how positive and talented brothers are, they still speak of women in such a manner.<P>Ms. Thang

I like this thread for two reasons.<P>1)You fail to be on the nuts of The Roots and hesitate to disagree with them simply because they are the focus of this website. They can learn and grow from us too.<P>2)I noticed the same shit<P>As a male I have to say that lingo passes around and becomes contagious in male circles. Thought may have just been falling into that trap. I've slipped a couple of times. Personally I feel that the term has just become generic and acceptable to the masses of hip hop heads and artists that have been bombarded by it for so many years. Kind of sad really. Thought is a respectable cat, though. Hopefully you disagreeing with him will have him thinking next time he goes out and says shit that is irresponsible (no, I don't believe that artists are responsible for their fans at all BUT a person, artist or not, needs to learn who their friends and enemies are and take care of their "friends", feel me?) towards those fans that see him as more intelligent than that. <P>VIS<P>"I'd rather stimulate your mind than emulate your purpose"--ACEYALONE

>I like this thread for two reasons. <BR>><BR>>1)You fail to be on the nuts <BR>>of The Roots and hesitate to <BR>>disagree with them simply because they <BR>>are the focus of this website. <BR>>They can learn and grow from <BR>>us too. <P>I'm really tired of folks acting like it's some big deal and an act of courage and honor when they or someone disagrees with or dislikes something about an okayartist. This is nothing new and has been going on since day one (CHECK THE ARCHIVES). Go back and find the intial Black lily reviews. <P>This is a FAN site and liking the artists of this site is not a sign that someone is "on the nuts" as you so eloquently put it.<P>ANYWAY!!<P>I think more sistas (all of us really) really need to hold these MCs' feet to the fire when they spew mysoginistic and homophobic lines. All of us really seem to just let it slide all the time. But unless heads are really willing to call heads out on shit it won't change a bit.<P>I remember reading the Roots Stress interview during the summer and I was just so extremely disgusted/disappointed by some of the comments that Kamal made. I mean money sounded SO unbelievably homophobic and it just made no sense to me.<P><BR>"Nesta...You big ol' pimp...how did we get started talkin' about THAT!?" - kawright<P>"Now...I am all for an occasional 'Bitch' when you dealing with West Coast flows...but be creative with ya 'Bitches'...ya know?" - DivineVersatile<P>"Only when lions have historians will hunters cease to he heroes." - African Proverb

***
"I think Brett Favre basically is a selfish guy, Brett Favre goes out there with his gray hair, his Wranglers and gets up when he gets hit. I understand why people like that. But there's another side. He's a selfish guy." - Teddy Atlas

I didn't know that you were such a veteran to this site. I mean black lily was what, a whole 2, 3 months ago. I've been on this site daily since its second day and I can assure you, there are plenty of heads on this site that would start humping livestock if the Roots thought it was cool so, and I mean no disrespect, mind your own business. I really doubt the Roots wanted to make an open forum website so that everyone could ride their nuts and tell them how Godly they are. They want debate, discussion, constructive criticism, etc. and many people I've seen actually change their opinions after the MIGHTY QUESTLOVE comes on and gives his opinion and makes them look stupid by making fun of their response. So I give her props for speaking out about something that a lot of people would turn their heads to. If the Roots FANS, as you put it, have a problem they should be able to voice it. Many people don't cause they fear the dickriders like yourself. I like the fact that Mrs. Thang is somewhat threatening to quit supporting the Roots over Black Thought and Kamals comments. I like the fact that the original person stated her mind. Why? because I want to know where Black Thought stands on this issue, and they won't be happy until they find out if his nice comments about women were bullshit. The Roots are human beings and we should disagree with them. Thats how you get to know people. Thats how they can either grow with us or let us know that we were wrong in viewing them in whatever way (in this case, as respectful of women). <P>VIS<P>

Check your e-mail. I'm not gonna clog the boards up with silliness!<P>I'll just be a dickrider! <P>"Nesta...You big ol' pimp...how did we get started talkin' about THAT!?" - kawright<P>"Now...I am all for an occasional 'Bitch' when you dealing with West Coast flows...but be creative with ya 'Bitches'...ya know?" - DivineVersatile<P>"Only when lions have historians will hunters cease to he heroes." - African Proverb

***
"I think Brett Favre basically is a selfish guy, Brett Favre goes out there with his gray hair, his Wranglers and gets up when he gets hit. I understand why people like that. But there's another side. He's a selfish guy." - Teddy Atlas

Thought may <BR>>have just been falling into that <BR>>trap. I've slipped a couple of <BR>>times. Personally I feel that the <BR>>term has just become generic and <BR>>acceptable to the masses of hip <BR>>hop heads and artists that have <BR>>been bombarded by it for so <BR>>many years. Kind of sad really. <BR>>Thought is a respectable cat, though. <P><BR>See, that's just the thing! I had him in my mind as this individual who stood apart from other MC's beyond simply being nice lyrically. I thought there were principles there. Your point is taken as far as Thought having a temporary slip and otherwise being a good guy. <P>Nobody's perfect, but I don't think I, as a woman who owns so much Roots material, should just ignore the fact that heretofore I had NEVER heard thought say such a thing. <P>If it's out of character, fine. If not, I plan to change the direction of my viewpoint and my cashflow.<P>Maybe folks don't understand how serious that is. Maybe people don't care about the dignity of women anymore. Well, I do, and I can't have one of my favorite MC's throwing that word around like that!<P>Ms. Thang

Personally I feel that the <BR>>term has just become generic and <BR>>acceptable to the masses of hip <BR>>hop heads and artists that have <BR>>been bombarded by it for so <BR>>many years. Kind of sad really. <BR>>Thought is a respectable cat, though. <BR>>Hopefully you disagreeing with him will <BR>>have him thinking next time he <BR>>goes out and says shit that <BR>>is irresponsible (no, I don't believe <BR>>that artists are responsible for their <BR>>fans at all BUT a person, <BR>>artist or not, needs to learn <BR>>who their friends and enemies are <BR>>and take care of their "friends", <BR>>feel me?) towards those fans that <BR>>see him as more intelligent than <BR>>that. <P>In many circles, "bitch" is used with the same amount of comfort as "nigga". I know I do it. I speak on "bitches" when I'm speaking to a group of female friends; they aren't bothered by it. By the same token, I have female friends who say, "Why she gotta be a bitch, though!" It all depends on who you're talking to.<P>To be so bothered by the use of "bitch" is a little absurd to me. He was sharing his thoughts, and speaking freely. Let's not overlook Black Thought's past lyrics that big the ladies up! Now he says bitch in an interview and he's irresponsible?<P>I don't think he was irresponsible at all. If that's the case you all should have posted a long time ago about Thought's use of "nigga" in his verses. Don't take it so personally. Always take a look at self first. How careful are YOU with certain words?<P><BR>Only in America could you find a way to earn a healthy buck/ and still keep your attitude on self destruct -M.F. Doom<P>"I don't mix with MC's, 'cause I just don't like them muthaf*ckas" - Common<P>"MC's need to fall off just to save me the trouble" - M.F. Doom (Metal Face, Metal Fingers, Metal Fist)<P>"Be givin' crews a brush with Death, like between meals" - M.F. Doom<P>"Nothin' is new to me, but I'm still learnin'" - Talib Kweli<P><BR>"Trust me, I'm a Doctor" - Duela

Good response Duela. Also think about the fact that it was an interview, and compare to the tracks he's done in respect to women. Sure he could've called Ahmina a bitch in Silent Treatment, but he didn't. Wanna know the comparison drop-off point?? Coming off the top of the head, whether speaking or responding to a question...we usually speak off of instinct and not thought. Now, Silent Treatment, for example is a written track. Which means that Black sat and wrote down his lyrics,which means he thought about every lyric, which means that if he thought about it, he could've called Ahmina a bitch several times for playin hard to get and not giving him some. But he didn't!! Could've used the word bitch in You Got Me, or called Alana a bitch for telling her friend from Virginia how he used to back bend her....lol<BR>But he didn't, its the thought...not the instinct. <P><BR>"...me, I'm a rocket launcher/M-illa-tant monster/I'm self-sponsored/I light up the mic just like gunja/" -Black Thought from "Burnin' and Lootin'"<P>"Now you can talk about Michael Jackson if you wanna/But Woody Allen molested and married his stepdaughter" - Mos Def<P>"Be perfect within my presence or seize to exist" - Next Lev<BR>

In the changer:
Foreign Exchange - Leave It All Behind

>In many circles, "bitch" is used with <BR>>the same amount of comfort as <BR>>"nigga". I know I do it. <BR>>I speak on "bitches" when I'm <BR>>speaking to a group of female <BR>>friends; <P>Congratulations, you think it's okay and your female friends think it's okay...a lot of people do NOT think it's okay and Thought himself said he was "not the average savage that curse queens". That word has way too much negative history to get tossed around in casual conversation like it's an ordinary noun...<P>>To be so bothered by the use <BR>>of "bitch" is a little absurd <BR>>to me.<P>To YOU! To a skinhead, saying "nigger" is no big issue, "hey everybody in this here hick town calls blacks niggers...or monkeys...depnding on how they feel" but what seems normal to some people is offensive as hell to others...the thing is, Thought expressed in verse that he feels the use of this word is wrong, so it seems like he's on the sister's side in being offended at the use of the "b" word to describe women (assuming that queens is synonymous with women).<P> He was sharing his <BR>>thoughts, and speaking freely. Let's not <BR>>overlook Black Thought's past lyrics that <BR>>big the ladies up!<P>We're not. We're holding him to that high standard. Positive peer pressure can hopefully have some effect on cats being more aware of their words...at one point in our history "black" was an insult, hell almost fighting words. After the "black is beautiful" movement, that died down...there was a positive peer pressure towards appreciating the black aesthetic...not sure how clear I'm being here, but the point is, hell yeah we should hld everyone, not just artists, but everyone to high standards...if we only get halfway there, at least we elevated, nahmean?<P> Now he <BR>>says bitch in an interview and <BR>>he's irresponsible? <P>Well, yeah, basically. One should think before they speak in interviews. That's rule number 1.<P>>I don't think he was irresponsible at <BR>>all. If that's the case you <BR>>all should have posted a long <BR>>time ago about Thought's use of <BR>>"nigga" in his verses.<P>Well, you can't dictate what she should post about....she may be opposed to use of that word as well...I am...<P>> Don't take <BR>>it so personally. Always take a <BR>>look at self first. How careful <BR>>are YOU with certain words? <P>That's the point. We should all be careful with our words. Words have power. words help us define our existence. I think the first step towards creating a better world is verbalizing what you want that world to be...now, if you want a world of bitches, that's on you...<P>Peace,<P>Spirit<BR><a href="http://amphibians.iuma.com" target="_blank">http://amphibians.iuma.com<;/a><BR><a href="http://infiniteloop.iuma.com" target="_blank">http://infiniteloop.iuma.com<;/a><BR>DC hip-hop is on the rise...<P>"High grade when I create beats/if I don't get signed/I'ma be the most dope bum that ever walked the streets" - <BR>Aychell (HL, of Khemystery)<P>"If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's probably a tool of the conspiracy" - unknown

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

>>In many circles, "bitch" is used with <BR>>>the same amount of comfort as <BR>>>"nigga". I know I do it. <BR>>>I speak on "bitches" when I'm <BR>>>speaking to a group of female <BR>>>friends; <P>>Congratulations, you think it's okay and your <BR>>female friends think it's okay...a lot <BR>>of people do NOT think it's <BR>>okay and Thought himself said he <BR>>was "not the average savage that <BR>>curse queens". That word has way <BR>>too much negative history to get <BR>>tossed around in casual conversation like <BR>>it's an ordinary noun... <BR>>>To be so bothered by the use <BR>>>of "bitch" is a little absurd <BR>>>to me.<P>>To YOU! To a skinhead, saying "nigger" <BR>>is no big issue, "hey everybody <BR>>in this here hick town calls <BR>>blacks niggers...or monkeys...depnding on how they <BR>>feel" but what seems normal to <BR>>some people is offensive as hell <BR>>to others...the thing is, Thought expressed <BR>>in verse that he feels the <BR>>use of this word is wrong, <BR>>so it seems like he's on <BR>>the sister's side in being offended <BR>>at the use of the "b" <BR>>word to describe women (assuming that <BR>>queens is synonymous with women). <BR>> He was sharing his <BR>>>thoughts, and speaking freely. Let's not <BR>>>overlook Black Thought's past lyrics that <BR>>>big the ladies up!<P>>We're not. We're holding him to that <BR>>high standard. Positive peer pressure can <BR>>hopefully have some effect on cats <BR>>being more aware of their words...at <BR>>one point in our history "black" <BR>>was an insult, hell almost fighting <BR>>words. After the "black is beautiful" <BR>>movement, that died down...there was a <BR>>positive peer pressure towards appreciating the <BR>>black aesthetic...not sure how clear I'm <BR>>being here, but the point is, <BR>>hell yeah we should hld everyone, <BR>>not just artists, but everyone to <BR>>high standards...if we only get halfway <BR>>there, at least we elevated, nahmean? <BR>><BR>> Now he <BR>>>says bitch in an interview and <BR>>>he's irresponsible? <P>>Well, yeah, basically. One should think before <BR>>they speak in interviews. That's rule <BR>>number 1. <BR>>>I don't think he was irresponsible at <BR>>>all. If that's the case you <BR>>>all should have posted a long <BR>>>time ago about Thought's use of <BR>>>"nigga" in his verses.<P>>Well, you can't dictate what she should <BR>>post about....she may be opposed to <BR>>use of that word as well...I <BR>>am... <BR>>> Don't take <BR>>>it so personally. Always take a <BR>>>look at self first. How careful <BR>>>are YOU with certain words? <P>>That's the point. We should all be <BR>>careful with our words. Words have <BR>>power. words help us define our <BR>>existence. I think the first step <BR>>towards creating a better world is <BR>>verbalizing what you want that world <BR>>to be...now, if you want a <BR>>world of bitches, that's on you... <BR>><BR>>Peace, <BR>>Spirit <a href="http://amphibians.iuma.com" target="_blank">http://amphibians.iuma.com<;/a> <a href="http://infiniteloop.iuma.com" target="_blank">http://infiniteloop.iuma.com<;/a> DC hip-hop is on <BR>>the rise... <BR>>"High grade when I create beats/if I <BR>>don't get signed/I'ma be the most <BR>>dope bum that ever walked the <BR>>streets" - Aychell (HL, of <BR>>Khemystery) <BR>>"If it walks like a duck, quacks <BR>>like a duck, and looks like <BR>>a duck, it's probably a tool <BR>>of the conspiracy" - unknown <P><BR>Peace,<P>Spirit<BR><a href="http://amphibians.iuma.com" target="_blank">http://amphibians.iuma.com<;/a><BR><a href="http://infiniteloop.iuma.com" target="_blank">http://infiniteloop.iuma.com<;/a><BR>DC hip-hop is on the rise...<P>"High grade when I create beats/if I don't get signed/I'ma be the most dope bum that ever walked the streets" - <BR>Aychell (HL, of Khemystery)<P>"If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's probably a tool of the conspiracy" - unknown

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

that Thought distinguishes between bitches and ladies. <P>In the two instances he says bitches in the interview, he uses it in a manner that is derogatory mainly to the music he is describing:<P>"you just trying to do the same joint that you did last time or the same joint that the next nigga did that all the bitches like"<P>and "Aight this nigga rapping about some bitches, getting fucked up, getting money, some whips"<P>He's using the word in a way that clearly criticises the music.<P>Add this to NextLev's point and Duela's point, and there you have it.<P>Then again we might just be riding Thought's bucking bronco<P>AIM: mke1978<P>"L'actualité régionale: c'est vous qui la vivez, c'est nous qui en vivons"<BR>In English:<BR>"Local news: you live it, we live off it"<BR>- Jules-Edouard Moustic, 20H20<P>"I'm spittin' lies/But she's none the wise"<BR> - Roots Manuva (check the fantastic album "Brand New Second Hand")<P><P>

Just this and I'm out: <P>That whole "bitch" thing wasn't really as prevalent until NWA blew up. Although, I think Too Short was doing it before then. West coast heads can let me know. <P>Anyway, although hip-hop has always been male-dominated, brothers called women "shorty" and "honey", which back then I definitely preferred to the current popular "bitch". "Girly" was too juvenile for me. "Slimmy" was terrible. Honey was just my favorite because it seemed so complimentary. Smooth, brown and sticky. And sweet. Anyway, I'm rambling. <P>I think Dre and Snoop cemented it on the Chronic album. They made it extremely "cool" to "not love" women and call them all types of names, including "bitch".<P>The opinions expressed above are mine only and do not represent those of any other female hip-hop fans.<P>Ms. Thang

Your zoning off these two particular words is very problamntic for me. Yes, NWA blew it up. So what? That means white/suburb kids got into it and assocaited it with hip-hop. (And which NWA album did it, by the way) And after the door was broken down and that sort of rap sold, depending on your perspecitve, it made other rappers open up to their true lagnuage or adpot the language. (And I think everyone, including myself will have to admit that some of the blowing up of the language is just because it sells and can be considered a pre-requiste for some material.) But I don't like the way you've narrowed blame for the word down. Now, you said maybe Too $hort was talking that way before, and yes, he had songs like "Blowjob Betty", "Invasion Of The Flat Booty Bitches" and "She's A Bitch" from 83-85, when he was selling tapes out of trunks. (And this was before hardcore was really even a genre so where did he get that shit from? Even if you say he was all based off of The Mack and Dolemite, he still got it from somewhere way before NWA, and it sold huge local quanties as such.) And after NWA a lot of artists, especiallly on the West specialized in all types of profanity who weren't particularly famous or rich for it. I think that was really Compton's Most Wanted, it's just that NWA opened the door for MC Eiht to talk the way he wanted to, and still not get rich off it, for that matter. But the language was used by other rappers too - Ice T and Schoolly D jump to mind. But as Thought said, no one had cursed so much on record until NWA. Now here's the tough part: I will tell you that these words were totally common in many circles before NWA. I mean, Richard Pryor was famous for the same shit, so it's wasn't like it hadn't been heard in public before, either. But with artists like Pryor and NWA, I belive they got the language from somewhere, and that was real life. I know for a fact that can be real life. Problem is, you and I can argue about how common that was and how often it was used, and who used and what it meant till we both drop dead, and it makes no difference, cause those are individual communites and experinences. But I think you're putting all the responsibility of the issue onto NWA (and the Geto Boys, too) is stupid. You may have gone through your "AmeriKKKa's Most Wanted / Whut The Album" phase, but sorry, for a lot of people I know that was no phase before or after. Also, sorry, but I belive words are just words. I could say more, but I think this is good enough for now. And I will never pay attention to or care about how much an artist like Black Thought uses bitch in an interview or songs more than I would any other word. Sorry.

for the record tariq is not misogynistic. it's just sometimes types and fonts can't really convey sarcasm and humor. when he said that i too <BR>wondered if kris would put the parenthsis when riq said what he said. (i don't have it in front of me, but i know that he was talking about making product for radio as opposed to the love for it, and he said that sometimes cats make music thinking (in thugged out voice) "yo the niggas and bitches will love this". that's how it was intended, not just in his everyday talk. no need for alarm sis. tariq is not a sellout.<P><P><P><BR>"....start your own company??!? your parents don't have enough money to buy you a company!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

check the resume

organix-93
(from the ground up)-94
do you want more?!!???!-95
illadelph halflife-96
things fall apart-99
(the legendary)-99
the roots come alive-99
phrenology-2002
the tipping point-2004
(the roots present...) 2004
homegrown: the beginne

grav (feelin like Nola Darling)<P><P>".....but on the real...it's just a website"-US<P>"But for a small fee almost anything is possible.baaaaaahahaaa" -Mr.1989

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Duela - many circles? I think you're projecting. It's probably just your circle. In my circle, "bitch" nor "nigga" are used. Nor in any circles immediately outside mine. I have heard several white kids around my neighborhood use those terms, however. They say such terms as "nigga" can apply to anyone because it's a "state of mind". Oh, the 90's. Anyway, just because those derogatory terms are ok with you doesn't mean they're ok with me, so please don't try to trivialize my concerns about their negativity.<P>YES, Thought says "nigga" quite often. NO, I'm not OK with it. But guess what? He's a grown man and it's not gonna change. He's been doing that from the days of the Square Roots. However, he tends to make it a point to NOT curse women. Therefore I thought it was unusual for that to come out of his mouth and I wanted to know what the deal was.<P>I went through my Amerikkka's Most Wanted and Whut the Album phases with hip-hop. I convinced myself that it didn't bother me when artists said "bitch this" and "bitch that". Now I am a parent of a little girl. My outlook is a lot different then it was in high school and college. I have seen a lot more and I overstand a lot more. Meaning, I ain't havin' it! I use all my words with care, each one.<P>Nextlev - "coulda" called her a bitch? Does that imply that I should feel lucky that he didn't? Let me let you know that half the reason I like him so much is because of those songs. See how many hip-hop songs you can find that paint a positive picture of black women, and see how many of them are from the Roots. Don't underestimate the value of the Roots female following. Women buy music.<P>Mke - I tried that whole bitch vs. women thing back in the day. Self-love eliminates all that. How can a black man have respect for himself if he calls any of his sisters/mother/aunt/whoever a bitch? It doesn't work. They don't coexist. A bitch is a female dog. Don't let popular music convince you that it is ok to call ANY black queen a bitch.<P>?uest - Your response is probably the closest I'm gonna get to some type of explanation. I don't know him personally and never will, but If I'm gonna go to the 9:30 a hundred times and buy a hundred CD's, I just wanna know what I'm paying for, that's all. I already gotta deal with that damn KLANG!!! LOL<P>This was long, sorry. I just get irritated with our people sometimes. We need to look at ourselves and let that negative stuff go. Why we need to call our girlfriends bitches? Men "nigga" and "dog"? Damn! That's not empowering at all. But, whatever. I'm just babbling on.<P>Oh, the ills of being a female hip-hop lover. Damn Geto Boys and NWA!!!<P>Ms. Thang

Peace...<P>Ahmir already answered, but yeah, in the interview each time I said the word "bitch" I made the quotation mark sign with my index and middle fingers. <P>If it was a TV or radio interview, you would be able to tell that I wasn't cursing queens. <P>Thought<P>

Cos it would take a cosmic event nowadays to get Thought to post!<P>AIM: mke1978<P>"L'actualité régionale: c'est vous qui la vivez, c'est nous qui en vivons"<BR>In English:<BR>"Local news: you live it, we live off it"<BR>- Jules-Edouard Moustic, 20H20<P>"I'm spittin' lies/But she's none the wise"<BR> - Roots Manuva (check the fantastic album "Brand New Second Hand")<P><P>

Thought - Thank you for responding. I was becoming concerned that my handful of MC's whom I really appreciate was getting smaller. I'm relieved that you were doing the finger quotes, and I wish the journalist would have expressed that (as ?uest mentioned). He would have saved me a lot of anguish. Now I can go ahead and charge three of those expensive effin tickets to the 9:30 club show. <img src="http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/Images/happy.gif"><P>Ms. Thang

>Mke - I tried that whole bitch <BR>>vs. women thing back in the <BR>>day. Self-love eliminates all that. <P>I didn't say he used the word in relation to women, but to the type of music, to further criticise it.<P>> How can a black man <BR>>have respect for himself if he <BR>>calls any of his sisters/mother/aunt/whoever a <BR>>bitch? <P>I've never called any guy a dog or my nigga (unless it was in a *very* sarcastic way with certain of my friends) and certainly no woman a bitch. I might say to someone "Stop bitching" but that has nothing to do with gender.<P>>It doesn't work. <BR>>They don't coexist. A bitch <BR>>is a female dog. Don't <BR>>let popular music convince you that <BR>>it is ok to call ANY <BR>>black queen a bitch. <P>While that's true, not all women (Black, White, Asian...) are queens. "Nor do I call every nigga my brother", as one guy said.<P>AIM: mke1978<P>"L'actualité régionale: c'est vous qui la vivez, c'est nous qui en vivons"<BR>In English:<BR>"Local news: you live it, we live off it"<BR>- Jules-Edouard Moustic, 20H20<P>"I'm spittin' lies/But she's none the wise"<BR> - Roots Manuva (check the fantastic album "Brand New Second Hand")<P><P>