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>>First of all, I'm not sure what your definition >of "choicest" White women is,
>
>I would think the white wives/girlfriends
>represent the choices mates to
>white men.
>>I see a lot of White women (on all economic >levels) who are very much mentally subservient to White men.
>
>Don't disagree but I'm not sure
>how that's related to your
>1st sentence
OK, I think that we're on the same page here and that's what I was trying to figure out. By "choicest" you mean in the eyes of the White man who chooses them. But I'm just trying to make the point that many of these women buy into the idea that they are the "pick of the crop" because they are told that they are by these men. These men deem them worthy in part due to their subservience. That's why I brought up the point about the subservient relationships that I have witnessed. So based on that, I'm suggesting that some (definitely not all) of the White women who choose to date outside of their race are not necessarily bargain basement. Perhaps there are some that are rejected based on progressive thinking, and by holding to their self-realized principles they are in my mind the "choicest" woman. I hope that makes more sense.
>
>>when it comes to political stances and >discussion of race-related matters the majority >of White women I know follow the thinking of >their White male partners.
>
>maybe because they know they have
>a winning stake maintaining the
>racial hierarchy. Most white feminists
>(in my experience) don't take
>black female issues into consideration.
Absolutely, but what I'm trying to point out is that White women's stake in maintaining a racial hierarchy does not but them as women in a winning position. It mainly furthers the power of White men, the same power that devised the patriarchical system under which women suffer. We are all (ethnic minorities, women, working class) victims of the same colonized mindset and Western-influenced dominance. And if White women allow ourselves to be divided from allies (ie: Black women) we are allowing our defenses to be weakened. The trick is for White men to continue to have White women believing that it is in their best interest to support their maintenance of power when it really is not.
>
>
>>After all that is what society tells us as women >that our ultimate achievement should be, >attaching ourselves to a stable White man (or a >man that perpetuates the same type mindset).
>
>True, so how come this brotha
>is talking about how white
>women have less of those
>values when you yourself state
>that most follow along with
>the program?
We probably have just had different experiences concerning White women and most of the White women that I am referring to in this post (the one's who are blinding sticking to a self-defeating mindset) do not have any significant contact with folks within the Black community.
>
>>Firstly, there are a lot of White men who will >not date and are >even violent towards White >women who would even consider dating a Black man >(yes, still in the year 2000 and among our own >generation). So often times a White woman
>>who dates outside of her race is marginalized >among certain men and not considered pedastal->worthy.
>
>This is exactly my point. These
>women are rejects (or rejected)
>by their own.
I wouldn't call them rejects (it sounds like a diss toward them) because I wouldn't want to be manipulated into a relationship where I am expected to limit myself to experiences only within the White community. If I were "rejected" by this type of White man than he was never the one for me to begin with.
Are you
>implying that most white women
>who date black men are
>"revolutionary" minded in terms of
>changing the current situation? I
>would beg to differ. In
>fact, I would say that
>most of these relationships result
>in the black person, not
>focusing on improving the black
>situation simply in order for
>couples to get along.
Again, I agree with you. I'm not saying that they are revolutionary minded in terms of changing the current situation. The women that I am referring to here are the one's who seem to reject their Whiteness by adopting another cultures superficial identity, rather than challenging the system head on they are reacting to it in a way that for whatever reason in a way that allows them to recreate themselves and their definition. I see it as a sort of unhealthy way of dealing with a self-hatred among White people that is never talked about. It is so deeply ingrained in our culture and our history as White people in this country that it becomes overwhelming at times. So what I witness a lot of White folks do is to ignore it (and limit themselves to their safe space within a White-centered mindset) or try to remove themselves from it (by clinging to another culture). My main point here is that for the most part White folks either refuse to recognize a problem or feel too outnumbered to challenge the prevailing opinion. Neither stance is self-empowering.
>
>>Secondly, there are a lot of White women who >date Black men simply because it is a sort of >militant action against White male dominated
>>society. My point here is that they aren't settling, but escaping.
>
>Should that be the basis for
>a relationship?
Nope. And I'm not applauding this behavior, just highlighting the disfunctional aspect of it. Their escaping only allows the current social standards to continue to manipulate minds unchallenged.
Also, how
>is their escaping assisting the
>black situation. Particularly when
>they simply take a pedastol
>position in their own situation.
It's not, that is my point. What most nonBlack people don't realize is that assisting the "Black situation" does not mean they are sacrificing their own well-being. If White folks took the time to read between the lines and seek knowledge and truth rather than lazily accepting what is spoon fed to us through the mass media and this country's educational system, they would see that racism, sexism, classism all are diseases from the same source. We as human beings need to step back a minute and stop fighting eachother and reevaluate the age old standards that we all are guilty of perpetuating at one time or another. And White people need to stop thinking that as long as Black folks adapt to the White standards that everything is kosher. Instead, White people need to start making the effort to change. Interracial dating can often be the result of unresolved issues concerning one's one identity. If the two people involved are trying to escape their culture rather than share it, then the "Black situation" as well as the situation of the White person (which is nonexistant to many) is unaffected.
>
>
>>We as women (of all ethnicities, but especially >it seems, Black and White) have made little >progress concerning our roles as advesaries in a >game controlled by White men since the days of >slavery.
>
>true, but it is also in
>part due to the fact
>that white women (speaking generally)
>haven't worked at dismantling white
>skin privilege & aren't willing
>to admit how much they
>benefit from it (even in
>their personal relationships) even as
>they are victims of gender
>oppression.
Yep, absolutely. That is why I feel so strongly about this type of dialogue occuring more frequently between White and Black women. That's is where it has to start. Our circumstances are dissimilar, but our oppression comes from the same source. White women may be better off materialistically by following the patterns layed out for us, but spiritually we are deficient as a whole if we continue to allow ourselves to be duped into being told what is in our best interest.
I hope that this response clears some things up. Thanks for going through my post so thoroughly. Peace.
"Said he want to talk about my mission, listen to my past lives...WORD!" -Jill Scott
"Never question who I am, God knows, and I know God personally. In fact, He lets me call Him Me." -Saul Williams
"Seek to understand, rather than to be understood." -?
"My words may not convey just what I'm feelin'." -Vinia Mojica
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