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Subject: "Anyone read/reading M. Gladwell's Outliers" Previous topic | Next topic
k_orr
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Wed Nov-26-08 11:21 AM

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"Anyone read/reading M. Gladwell's Outliers"


  

          

I'm almost done with it (quick read)

Let's chat.

one
k. orr

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
I will be, in two weeks(I belong to Book of the month club)
Nov 26th 2008
1
i'm thinking of copping
Nov 26th 2008
2
it's as good as his other ones, imo. so a 4
Nov 26th 2008
8
Just found out about it yesterday
Nov 26th 2008
3
RE: Anyone read/reading M. Gladwell's Outliers
Nov 26th 2008
4
I'm a fan, but I read a negative review that put me off
Nov 26th 2008
5
the negative reviews i've read, after having read it
Nov 26th 2008
9
i've only read two reviews that were somewhat bad while the other ten or...
Nov 27th 2008
12
i have yet to start it...
Nov 26th 2008
6
RE: i have yet to start it...
Nov 26th 2008
10
      Yup. See post 7.
Nov 26th 2008
11
Yup. I disliked both Gladwell books before this. Like this one.
Nov 26th 2008
7
What did you dislike about The Tipping Point and Blink?
Dec 20th 2008
21
RE: Anyone read/reading M. Gladwell's Outliers
Nov 28th 2008
13
quick talk from M. Gladwell
Nov 28th 2008
14
on the library list
Nov 29th 2008
15
it's on my xmas list.
Nov 29th 2008
16
why are old rappers wack
Dec 20th 2008
17
The plateau problem? The general evolution issue?
Dec 20th 2008
19
cuz they go on hiatus?
Jan 05th 2009
23
10,000 Hours?
Dec 20th 2008
18
Half way thru now.
Jan 05th 2009
27
      I think part of the genius factor
Jan 05th 2009
29
           No doubt. That's why it's important to have someone to support....
Jan 06th 2009
34
                my response is a tad bit long...sorry
Jan 06th 2009
35
                     No worries....
Jan 07th 2009
38
                     Cultural Legacy......hmmm.
Jan 07th 2009
39
my boss just gave it to me for my Xmas gift
Dec 20th 2008
20
M. Gladwell on his own book on Charlie Rose
Dec 22nd 2008
22
does this dude really get hated on that much?
Jan 05th 2009
24
      oh & I wish
Jan 05th 2009
25
      if you know about the particular topic, then yes
Jan 05th 2009
28
           RE: if you know about the particular topic, then yes
Jan 05th 2009
31
                RE: if you know about the particular topic, then yes
Jan 05th 2009
33
got it for Xmas and looking forward to it
Jan 05th 2009
26
i haven't read any of his books...yet. but i want to.
Jan 05th 2009
30
It stands alone
Jan 05th 2009
32
      cool. imma read it
Jan 06th 2009
36
           check this out
Jan 07th 2009
37

Silky1
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Wed Nov-26-08 11:56 AM

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1. "I will be, in two weeks(I belong to Book of the month club)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


silk.
later

>I'm almost done with it (quick read)
>
>Let's chat.
>
>one
>k. orr


Heavy Rotation:
Dionne Farris-For Truth If Not Love/Milton Wright-Friends And Buddies/Womack & Womack-Radio M.U.S.C.Man/Sheila E.-Sheila E./Rene & Angela-Rene & Angela/Aurra-A Little Love/Sugarfoot-Sugar Kiss/The Spinners-New And Improved/Undisputed Truth

  

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jasonprague
Member since Sep 29th 2005
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Wed Nov-26-08 12:35 PM

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2. "i'm thinking of copping"
In response to Reply # 0


          

what would you rate it from 1-5 (5 obviously being the highest)?



PEACE

"The struggle of man against power is the struggle of memory against forgetting." - Kundera

  

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k_orr
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Wed Nov-26-08 09:07 PM

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8. "it's as good as his other ones, imo. so a 4"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

  

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MisterGrump
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Wed Nov-26-08 12:41 PM

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3. "Just found out about it yesterday"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

________________________________________
Grump
http://twitter.com/Gator_Bell

  

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las raises
Member since Aug 31st 2002
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Wed Nov-26-08 04:02 PM

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4. "RE: Anyone read/reading M. Gladwell's Outliers"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i'm gonna pick it up

-----------------------------------------------------------------

  

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biscuit
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Wed Nov-26-08 06:32 PM

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5. "I'm a fan, but I read a negative review that put me off"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I know, one review shouldn't do it.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

*Effasig*

  

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k_orr
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Wed Nov-26-08 09:10 PM

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9. "the negative reviews i've read, after having read it"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

seem silly to me.

In the 2nd half of the book, Malcolm makes some broad arguments about my Asian folks. I think more people should take a critical look @ that, but the other criticisms i've read - truly missed the point of his argument.

  

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jasonprague
Member since Sep 29th 2005
1900 posts
Thu Nov-27-08 03:15 AM

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12. "i've only read two reviews that were somewhat bad while the other ten or..."
In response to Reply # 5


          

i've read said it was outstanding.



PEACE

"The struggle of man against power is the struggle of memory against forgetting." - Kundera

  

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roamr1
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Wed Nov-26-08 07:14 PM

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6. "i have yet to start it..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

do u read any of his articles on new yorker? i love the guy's writing and his use of examples that i can always relate to.

how would u compare outliers to the other two books?

  

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k_orr
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Wed Nov-26-08 09:11 PM

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10. "RE: i have yet to start it..."
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

>do u read any of his articles on new yorker? i love the guy's
>writing and his use of examples that i can always relate to.

Yes, Janey got me up on him.

>how would u compare outliers to the other two books?

I think there are less buzz words to take away from them. I think this is a more serious work, given those 2 as reference.

  

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Orbit_Established
Member since Oct 27th 2002
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Wed Nov-26-08 10:23 PM

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11. "Yup. See post 7."
In response to Reply # 10


  

          


>I think there are less buzz words to take away from them. I
>think this is a more serious work, given those 2 as
>reference.

I thought the first 2 bordered on silly.

This one is very serious, about very serious
subject matter.

And its the reason why the reviews are harsher:
He's stepping on some toes.

This book is as clear a window we have into his
politics too.


----------------------------


O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.



"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "Cosmic Slop"

  

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Orbit_Established
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Wed Nov-26-08 07:47 PM

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7. "Yup. I disliked both Gladwell books before this. Like this one."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          



Well, not done yet, but almost there.

Like it alot.

I had read a lot of the book the past year I'm finding
because I kept up with his essays which were on the topic.

  

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mcdeezjawns
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21. "What did you dislike about The Tipping Point and Blink?"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

I think his strongest suit is the way he easily uses interesting anecdotes/stories to break down his points and make them easily digestible

I assume he does just that in Outliers as well?

  

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ovBismarck
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Fri Nov-28-08 04:31 PM

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13. "RE: Anyone read/reading M. Gladwell's Outliers"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

im diggin it - goin at the bootstrap mentality.

my current employer used an in-person application that follows the same sort of thinking as the brick and blanket question.

i was pretty happy to see it when they put it in front of me.

-------------
A seal walks into a club.

  

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k_orr
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Fri Nov-28-08 04:56 PM

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14. "quick talk from M. Gladwell"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.aiga.org/content.cfm/video-gain-2008-gladwell

  

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lfresh
Member since Jun 18th 2002
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Sat Nov-29-08 10:39 AM

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15. "on the library list"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~

  

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WhiteNotion
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Sat Nov-29-08 04:24 PM

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16. "it's on my xmas list."
In response to Reply # 0


          

so i'll get back to you then.

http://recordsofhistory.wordpress.com/author/shaunbockert/
http://www.last.fm/user/whitenotion

  

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roaches
Member since Jun 04th 2003
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Sat Dec-20-08 12:50 AM

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17. "why are old rappers wack"
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Dec-20-08 12:52 AM by roaches

  

          

then again, *bumps sqad 6*

  

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k_orr
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19. "The plateau problem? The general evolution issue?"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

  

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djrue
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23. "cuz they go on hiatus?"
In response to Reply # 17


          

they stop practicing.
R.

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/djrue/
http://www.last.fm/user/djrue/

  

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Mau777
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Sat Dec-20-08 06:46 AM

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18. "10,000 Hours?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

I haven't read it yet, but i read an excerpt about this 10,000 hours of study/practice. Seems plausible.


"Basically, Iím going to take what you did, the bare-bones structure of what you were trying to do, how you were attacking the song, and attack it in pretty much the same way, just with more intensity to show you that you couldíve come harder" - Bun B

Re

  

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Mau777
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27. "Half way thru now."
In response to Reply # 18


          

A couple standout points for me thus far, are the 10,000 hour concept and the "concerted cultivation" factor.

In relating these 2 to music, i can't help but think of a cat like Lil Wayne and how his superstardom came some 10 years (and i'm sure well over 10,000 hours of studio time)after he came into the spotlight. Likely, none of his current fame would've happened if it weren't for his stand-in father Baby pushing him and him constantly making songs.

Deliberate Intent is key in both points. In moving towards 10,000hrs there exists a deliberate intent to progress beyond any external motivating factor. The desire is inherent. In "concerted cultivation", there exists a deliberate intent within the parents to facilitate progression of the child by providing the necessary tools and removing the blocks. Together, a child can excel at a rapid pace no matter what class, because the deep intention to do so. If there is no desire to learn more, to become better, 10,000 hrs can't be reached. If there isn't anyone pushing/guiding a child's progress, i won't say 10ghrs can't be reached, but i will be much harder.

I would say deliberate intent is an even more important factor to success than class(though i definitely acknowledge the advantage of having more money). When you have it, you can persevere and act on opportunities.





"Basically, Iím going to take what you did, the bare-bones structure of what you were trying to do, how you were attacking the song, and attack it in pretty much the same way, just with more intensity to show you that you couldíve come harder" - Bun B

Re

  

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k_orr
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29. "I think part of the genius factor"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

Is not only have the time and facilities to do something for 10,000 hours - but motivation to keep doing it.

A person could probably get to 90% on their free throws if they put in 10,000 hours - but do you really have the desire to keep doing it?

*thoughts after 4 hours of shooting pool*

  

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Mau777
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34. "No doubt. That's why it's important to have someone to support...."
In response to Reply # 29


          

...the effort. Like a trainer in the gym. A person may have a sincere desire to get fit, but without some to push them, the chances of giving up are much greater. This is why i think things like apprenticeships and having mentors if a parent cannot provide the attention is very important. Children(adults too) need that extra and consistent push, esp. Black children.

Another good point Gladwell makes is about the parenting styles of low income and upper income parents. When i worked in an afterschool program for elementary children, i noticed much of what he was touching on, with the exception of the submissive factor for low income kids. The youngins i had were very assertive and asked alot of questions.

But one thing was definite, the parents with less time on their hands, were just not really involved in what we were doing at the center. They just rushed in, scooped their kid/s asked, "were they good today?" and bounced. Many were working 2 jobs and trying to go to school, so it's understandable. At the same time it's wack because some of these kids had obvious interests that needed specialized focus and they weren't getting it. If we don't have anyone to push us and guide our focus, we will shift it to something else if the road gets rocky or if some other thing steals our attention.






"Basically, Iím going to take what you did, the bare-bones structure of what you were trying to do, how you were attacking the song, and attack it in pretty much the same way, just with more intensity to show you that you couldíve come harder" - Bun B

Re

  

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k_orr
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Tue Jan-06-09 09:36 AM

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35. "my response is a tad bit long...sorry"
In response to Reply # 34


  

          


>Another good point Gladwell makes is about the parenting
>styles of low income and upper income parents. When i worked
>in an afterschool program for elementary children, i noticed
>much of what he was touching on, with the exception of the
>submissive factor for low income kids. The youngins i had were
>very assertive and asked alot of questions.

Dude!!!

There was a good article on that in the Times. I wonder if I can find it.

> But one thing was definite, the parents with less time on
>their hands, were just not really involved in what we were
>doing at the center. They just rushed in, scooped their kid/s
>asked, "were they good today?" and bounced. Many were working
>2 jobs and trying to go to school, so it's understandable.

Actually, I think this is the key here. Most of those "soccer moms" have busy schedules as well - but they make a lot of mental space/time and prioritize their child's education.

But taking the rich husband and overeager housewife out of the picture...

Take 2 married professionals with kids (doctor and a lawyer), and compare them with 2 "working class" professionals with kids (administrative assistant and a warehouse manager)

Whose parents do you expect to have more time?
Whose parents do you expect to have more money?

Now ask yourself which children end up with better grades?

For the sake of argument, if we can agree that the Doctor and Lawyer on average have less time to help Jamal and Keisha with the homework - you start to wonder why Jamal and Keisha academically outpace Connor and Madelyn - especially when hour for hour, Conner and Maddie's parents are @ home a lot more.

The Doctor and Lawyer combination (genetics aside of course) is able to structure their children's lives better.

It could be money for tutors and enriching family vacations. (although realistically, most high income professionals take less vacation time than their middle income counterparts - emphasis on wage income, not so much income from other sources)

In the NY times article that I can't find, "middle class" parents had
- Books @ home, and not just children's books - but books galore
- They spoke to children with adult vocabulary (the @ dinner discussions, with no TV, everybody contributing)

But overall there was not only the expectation of high achievement - but concrete steps to encourage and not stifle their children's creativity - often to the detriment of them being well behaved.

What this said to me when I read it, was that parenting really counts. It makes sense that your first teacher remains your primary teacher - and it's important that we as parents (current or future) understand our role.

Which then brings me back to the "busy" parent who just says hi and bye, and wants to know whether the kids should be disciplined.
...

Sheesh, I kinda got off on a rant here...

> At
>the same time it's wack because some of these kids had obvious
>interests that needed specialized focus and they weren't
>getting it.

^^Yup. That part where Malcolm says, "Katie loves to sing"
- working class response - "that's her personality"
- "middle" class response - "we need to get her a vocal coach, can you look into that honey" *hops online* *does google map search for vocal coach near home address and then school address* *finds several, makes phone calls the next day while at work.....*


>If we don't have anyone to push us and guide our
>focus, we will shift it to something else if the road gets
>rocky or if some other thing steals our attention.

Indeed. The parent nurtures the interest by getting the kid to a coach that can motivate and keep them on task. And when the kid gets bored, the parent finds them a different coach - cause @ some level kids don't really know what they want or what's good for them.

This book has so much that can be discussed, especially for people who the no NPR listening, arugula eating, "middle" class.

one
k. orr

  

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Mau777
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38. "No worries...."
In response to Reply # 35


          

...i'd rather a lil long then discussion blocking one word or sentence responses.

>But overall there was not only the expectation of high
>achievement - but concrete steps to encourage and not stifle
>their children's creativity - often to the detriment of them
>being well behaved.

"Often to the detriment of them being well behaved"....I was just speaking about this yesterday. I just accepted a teaching job at the Bali School Of Dramatic Arts here in Bali, Indonesia. The director was telling me how many of the kids who attend are expat kids or mixed race kids from high income families and while they have this big desire to be performers and supportive parents, the biggest issue for them was discipline. She told me how these kids can have really "snotty" attitudes if things aren't going the way they want. Gladwell speaks about "entitlement" and that rings true. The convo went into talking about how kids of high income families need another king of specialized attention just like low income kids do.

Low income, if not guided properly, can grow into car jackers, street thugs, drug dealers, etc. High income kids not guided properly, embezzle millions of dollars, exploit poor countries, deny people health care if it lowers their profit margin a few points, etc.

>^^Yup. That part where Malcolm says, "Katie loves to sing"
>- working class response - "that's her personality"
>- "middle" class response - "we need to get her a vocal coach,
>can you look into that honey" *hops online* *does google map
>search for vocal coach near home address and then school
>address* *finds several, makes phone calls the next day while
>at work.....*

Too true.

>
>This book has so much that can be discussed, especially for
>people who the no NPR listening, arugula eating, "middle"
>class.

Ha! Fa Real.



"Basically, Iím going to take what you did, the bare-bones structure of what you were trying to do, how you were attacking the song, and attack it in pretty much the same way, just with more intensity to show you that you couldíve come harder" - Bun B

Re

  

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Mau777
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Wed Jan-07-09 06:28 AM

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39. "Cultural Legacy......hmmm."
In response to Reply # 35


          

The stories of those airplane crashes were crazy. Living in Asia the last 4 years, i can definitely relate to his assertion that certain cultural legacies can push a group forward and others can hold back. As a Black American performance artist in Indonesia, i constantly get frustrated with some of my students who are so damn talented and so damn shy. Slowly they are opening up more, but best believe i gotta grab the psychological crowbar.

On the Asian math tip, i can feel him on the language connection, but i can't feel him on the rice paddy thing. If it were a rice thing, then it should apply to everywhere with rice paddies. I live in Bali and there are rice paddies all around me, literally, and though i ain't seen the tests, i don't think math is a Balinese strong point. Cats be grabbin' calculators to give you change for something that costs 50 cents.

How does cultural legacy relate to the descendants of slaves? He mentions "honor" when speaking about northern europeans and southerners, but Black folk prolly got this even more deeply in our cultural mindset today. The word "punk" comes to mind. Can't be a "punk" in the hood. How much crime and violence has went down because someone couldn't be seen as a punk?

On the flip, is creative intelligence so prevalent in the Black community also a direct result of slavery?



Peace


"Basically, Iím going to take what you did, the bare-bones structure of what you were trying to do, how you were attacking the song, and attack it in pretty much the same way, just with more intensity to show you that you couldíve come harder" - Bun B

Re

  

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mcdeezjawns
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Sat Dec-20-08 03:08 PM

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20. "my boss just gave it to me for my Xmas gift"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

gotta love work related gifts

I'll be starting it tomorrow after work

  

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k_orr
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Mon Dec-22-08 09:24 AM

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22. "M. Gladwell on his own book on Charlie Rose"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/charlie-rose-a-conversation-with-malcolm-gladwell/

  

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djrue
Member since Apr 08th 2007
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Mon Jan-05-09 02:14 AM

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24. "does this dude really get hated on that much?"
In response to Reply # 22


          

I mean, it's not like he's engaging in the actual discovery
of these ideas, but he certainly does an incredible job
at organizing and communicating them.

I liked the book very much. Particularly the way he addressed
the effects cultural backgrounds have on society when placed
in an unfamiliar context. I can imagine folks taking issue with
this specially since he delves into generalizations.

I like the fact that the idea behind this book is more tangible
and applicable to a social structure than the ideas behind his
previous two.
R.

http://www.freegums.com
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http://www.last.fm/user/djrue/

  

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djrue
Member since Apr 08th 2007
2066 posts
Mon Jan-05-09 02:18 AM

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25. "oh & I wish"
In response to Reply # 24


          

he had taking that last chapter a little further and
analyzed the very own circumstances of his success.

I think I understand his restraint, but at that point
I was sorta expecting that. I'm sure someone will get
to that eventually.
R.

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k_orr
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Mon Jan-05-09 11:00 AM

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28. "if you know about the particular topic, then yes"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

The Beatles heads ripped apart his analysis of them.

In Salon, their resident airline pilot (they have one!) took apart his assessment of the KAL crash.

The Asian persistence ethic cause of rice farming is taken to task when you look @ scores from Asians who didn't grow rice, or Europeans who also routinely round out the top 5.

I think it's the nature of the beast.

one
k. orr

  

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djrue
Member since Apr 08th 2007
2066 posts
Mon Jan-05-09 12:08 PM

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31. "RE: if you know about the particular topic, then yes"
In response to Reply # 28


          

so unless there are any 'experts' who agree with his
analysis, then Outliers would be a bunch of really
interesting b.s.

The funny thing is that this is exactly what makes
Gladwell so remarkable, his ability of turning a concept
from the fringes of mainstream understanding/concern
and give it that nudge onto the main stage.

btw, do you have a link for the Salon piece?
R.

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http://www.last.fm/user/djrue/

  

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k_orr
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Mon Jan-05-09 12:26 PM

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33. "RE: if you know about the particular topic, then yes"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

>so unless there are any 'experts' who agree with his
>analysis, then Outliers would be a bunch of really
>interesting b.s.

No, it's not that.

It's someone with a general knowledge trying to convey specialized knowledge to a general audience.

I don't think he's particularly "wrong" about anything, but the text itself doesn't take into account all the nuance you would really need to break down everything.

I run into this all the time when I talk about the law or hip hop.

Take sampling. Most heads think that it's okay to sample something, just as long as you don't make any money from it. If you make money from it, you're "breaking the law".

It's very difficult to explain to dj's/producers what a copyright violation is and what that means in the legal sense. Most of the time, I have to focus on "what happens in the real world" - I can't really explain it in the legal sense - because my audience would need legal training to understand what's important and what's not important.

>The funny thing is that this is exactly what makes
>Gladwell so remarkable, his ability of turning a concept
>from the fringes of mainstream understanding/concern
>and give it that nudge onto the main stage.
>
>btw, do you have a link for the Salon piece?

http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2008/12/05/askthepilot301/print.html


>http://www.last.fm/user/djrue/

  

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jasonprague
Member since Sep 29th 2005
1900 posts
Mon Jan-05-09 05:24 AM

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26. "got it for Xmas and looking forward to it"
In response to Reply # 0


          





PEACE

"The struggle of man against power is the struggle of memory against forgetting." - Kundera

  

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Damali
Member since Sep 12th 2002
35659 posts
Mon Jan-05-09 11:28 AM

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30. "i haven't read any of his books...yet. but i want to."
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i've read selected articles of his from the New Yorker mostly..and excerpts from Tipping Point and Blink.

should i start w/this one or go back?

d

"To call woman the weaker sex is a libel; it is man's injustice to woman. If by strength is meant brute strength, then, indeed, is woman less brute than man. If by strength is meant moral power, then woman is immeasurably man's superior." - Mahatma Ghandi

  

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k_orr
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Mon Jan-05-09 12:19 PM

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32. "It stands alone"
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

You don't need to know about Gladwell or anything else.

I wish I could write like him.

  

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Damali
Member since Sep 12th 2002
35659 posts
Tue Jan-06-09 03:15 PM

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36. "cool. imma read it"
In response to Reply # 32


          

and i feel you...i've always loved the way he writes with such clarity. he doesn't waste words or overstate things. simple but intellectually complex.

d

"To call woman the weaker sex is a libel; it is man's injustice to woman. If by strength is meant brute strength, then, indeed, is woman less brute than man. If by strength is meant moral power, then woman is immeasurably man's superior." - Mahatma Gandhi

  

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djrue
Member since Apr 08th 2007
2066 posts
Wed Jan-07-09 12:48 AM

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37. "check this out"
In response to Reply # 36


          

Gladwell on what we can learn from spaghetti sauce:
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/malcolm_gladwell_on_spaghetti_sauce.html
R.

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/djrue/
http://www.last.fm/user/djrue/

  

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