I'm almost done with it (quick read)

Let's chat.

one
k. orr

silk.
later

>I'm almost done with it (quick read)
>
>Let's chat.
>
>one
>k. orr


Heavy Rotation:
Dionne Farris-For Truth If Not Love/Milton Wright-Friends And Buddies/Womack & Womack-Radio M.U.S.C.Man/Sheila E.-Sheila E./Rene & Angela-Rene & Angela/Aurra-A Little Love/Sugarfoot-Sugar Kiss/The Spinners-New And Improved/Undisputed Truth

what would you rate it from 1-5 (5 obviously being the highest)?



PEACE

i'm gonna pick it up

I know, one review shouldn't do it.

seem silly to me.

In the 2nd half of the book, Malcolm makes some broad arguments about my Asian folks. I think more people should take a critical look @ that, but the other criticisms i've read - truly missed the point of his argument.

i've read said it was outstanding.



PEACE

do u read any of his articles on new yorker? i love the guy's writing and his use of examples that i can always relate to.

how would u compare outliers to the other two books?

>do u read any of his articles on new yorker? i love the guy's
>writing and his use of examples that i can always relate to.

Yes, Janey got me up on him.

>how would u compare outliers to the other two books?

I think there are less buzz words to take away from them. I think this is a more serious work, given those 2 as reference.

>I think there are less buzz words to take away from them. I
>think this is a more serious work, given those 2 as
>reference.

I thought the first 2 bordered on silly.

This one is very serious, about very serious
subject matter.

And its the reason why the reviews are harsher:
He's stepping on some toes.

This book is as clear a window we have into his
politics too.


----------------------------


O_E: Your Super-Ego's Favorite Poster.



"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "Cosmic Slop"

Well, not done yet, but almost there.

Like it alot.

I had read a lot of the book the past year I'm finding
because I kept up with his essays which were on the topic.

I think his strongest suit is the way he easily uses interesting anecdotes/stories to break down his points and make them easily digestible

I assume he does just that in Outliers as well?

im diggin it - goin at the bootstrap mentality.

my current employer used an in-person application that follows the same sort of thinking as the brick and blanket question.

i was pretty happy to see it when they put it in front of me.

http://www.aiga.org/content.cfm/video-gain-2008-gladwell

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~

so i'll get back to you then.

http://recordsofhistory.wordpress.com/author/shaunbockert/
http://www.last.fm/user/whitenotion

then again, *bumps sqad 6*

they stop practicing.
R.

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I haven't read it yet, but i read an excerpt about this 10,000 hours of study/practice. Seems plausible.


"Basically, I’m going to take what you did, the bare-bones structure of what you were trying to do, how you were attacking the song, and attack it in pretty much the same way, just with more intensity to show you that you could’ve come harder" - Bun B

Re

A couple standout points for me thus far, are the 10,000 hour concept and the "concerted cultivation" factor.

In relating these 2 to music, i can't help but think of a cat like Lil Wayne and how his superstardom came some 10 years (and i'm sure well over 10,000 hours of studio time)after he came into the spotlight. Likely, none of his current fame would've happened if it weren't for his stand-in father Baby pushing him and him constantly making songs.

Deliberate Intent is key in both points. In moving towards 10,000hrs there exists a deliberate intent to progress beyond any external motivating factor. The desire is inherent. In "concerted cultivation", there exists a deliberate intent within the parents to facilitate progression of the child by providing the necessary tools and removing the blocks. Together, a child can excel at a rapid pace no matter what class, because the deep intention to do so. If there is no desire to learn more, to become better, 10,000 hrs can't be reached. If there isn't anyone pushing/guiding a child's progress, i won't say 10ghrs can't be reached, but i will be much harder.

I would say deliberate intent is an even more important factor to success than class(though i definitely acknowledge the advantage of having more money). When you have it, you can persevere and act on opportunities.





"Basically, I’m going to take what you did, the bare-bones structure of what you were trying to do, how you were attacking the song, and attack it in pretty much the same way, just with more intensity to show you that you could’ve come harder" - Bun B

Re

Is not only have the time and facilities to do something for 10,000 hours - but motivation to keep doing it.

A person could probably get to 90% on their free throws if they put in 10,000 hours - but do you really have the desire to keep doing it?

*thoughts after 4 hours of shooting pool*

...the effort. Like a trainer in the gym. A person may have a sincere desire to get fit, but without some to push them, the chances of giving up are much greater. This is why i think things like apprenticeships and having mentors if a parent cannot provide the attention is very important. Children(adults too) need that extra and consistent push, esp. Black children.

Another good point Gladwell makes is about the parenting styles of low income and upper income parents. When i worked in an afterschool program for elementary children, i noticed much of what he was touching on, with the exception of the submissive factor for low income kids. The youngins i had were very assertive and asked alot of questions.

But one thing was definite, the parents with less time on their hands, were just not really involved in what we were doing at the center. They just rushed in, scooped their kid/s asked, "were they good today?" and bounced. Many were working 2 jobs and trying to go to school, so it's understandable. At the same time it's wack because some of these kids had obvious interests that needed specialized focus and they weren't getting it. If we don't have anyone to push us and guide our focus, we will shift it to something else if the road gets rocky or if some other thing steals our attention.






"Basically, I’m going to take what you did, the bare-bones structure of what you were trying to do, how you were attacking the song, and attack it in pretty much the same way, just with more intensity to show you that you could’ve come harder" - Bun B

Re

>Another good point Gladwell makes is about the parenting
>styles of low income and upper income parents. When i worked
>in an afterschool program for elementary children, i noticed
>much of what he was touching on, with the exception of the
>submissive factor for low income kids. The youngins i had were
>very assertive and asked alot of questions.

Dude!!!

There was a good article on that in the Times. I wonder if I can find it.

> But one thing was definite, the parents with less time on
>their hands, were just not really involved in what we were
>doing at the center. They just rushed in, scooped their kid/s
>asked, "were they good today?" and bounced. Many were working
>2 jobs and trying to go to school, so it's understandable.

Actually, I think this is the key here. Most of those "soccer moms" have busy schedules as well - but they make a lot of mental space/time and prioritize their child's education.

But taking the rich husband and overeager housewife out of the picture...

Take 2 married professionals with kids (doctor and a lawyer), and compare them with 2 "working class" professionals with kids (administrative assistant and a warehouse manager)

Whose parents do you expect to have more time?
Whose parents do you expect to have more money?

Now ask yourself which children end up with better grades?

For the sake of argument, if we can agree that the Doctor and Lawyer on average have less time to help Jamal and Keisha with the homework - you start to wonder why Jamal and Keisha academically outpace Connor and Madelyn - especially when hour for hour, Conner and Maddie's parents are @ home a lot more.

The Doctor and Lawyer combination (genetics aside of course) is able to structure their children's lives better.

It could be money for tutors and enriching family vacations. (although realistically, most high income professionals take less vacation time than their middle income counterparts - emphasis on wage income, not so much income from other sources)

In the NY times article that I can't find, "middle class" parents had
- Books @ home, and not just children's books - but books galore
- They spoke to children with adult vocabulary (the @ dinner discussions, with no TV, everybody contributing)

But overall there was not only the expectation of high achievement - but concrete steps to encourage and not stifle their children's creativity - often to the detriment of them being well behaved.

What this said to me when I read it, was that parenting really counts. It makes sense that your first teacher remains your primary teacher - and it's important that we as parents (current or future) understand our role.

Which then brings me back to the "busy" parent who just says hi and bye, and wants to know whether the kids should be disciplined.
...

Sheesh, I kinda got off on a rant here...

> At
>the same time it's wack because some of these kids had obvious
>interests that needed specialized focus and they weren't
>getting it.

^^Yup. That part where Malcolm says, "Katie loves to sing"
- working class response - "that's her personality"
- "middle" class response - "we need to get her a vocal coach, can you look into that honey" *hops online* *does google map search for vocal coach near home address and then school address* *finds several, makes phone calls the next day while at work.....*


>If we don't have anyone to push us and guide our
>focus, we will shift it to something else if the road gets
>rocky or if some other thing steals our attention.

Indeed. The parent nurtures the interest by getting the kid to a coach that can motivate and keep them on task. And when the kid gets bored, the parent finds them a different coach - cause @ some level kids don't really know what they want or what's good for them.

This book has so much that can be discussed, especially for people who the no NPR listening, arugula eating, "middle" class.

one
k. orr

...i'd rather a lil long then discussion blocking one word or sentence responses.

>But overall there was not only the expectation of high
>achievement - but concrete steps to encourage and not stifle
>their children's creativity - often to the detriment of them
>being well behaved.

"Often to the detriment of them being well behaved"....I was just speaking about this yesterday. I just accepted a teaching job at the Bali School Of Dramatic Arts here in Bali, Indonesia. The director was telling me how many of the kids who attend are expat kids or mixed race kids from high income families and while they have this big desire to be performers and supportive parents, the biggest issue for them was discipline. She told me how these kids can have really "snotty" attitudes if things aren't going the way they want. Gladwell speaks about "entitlement" and that rings true. The convo went into talking about how kids of high income families need another king of specialized attention just like low income kids do.

Low income, if not guided properly, can grow into car jackers, street thugs, drug dealers, etc. High income kids not guided properly, embezzle millions of dollars, exploit poor countries, deny people health care if it lowers their profit margin a few points, etc.

>^^Yup. That part where Malcolm says, "Katie loves to sing"
>- working class response - "that's her personality"
>- "middle" class response - "we need to get her a vocal coach,
>can you look into that honey" *hops online* *does google map
>search for vocal coach near home address and then school
>address* *finds several, makes phone calls the next day while
>at work.....*

Too true.

>
>This book has so much that can be discussed, especially for
>people who the no NPR listening, arugula eating, "middle"
>class.

Ha! Fa Real.



"Basically, I’m going to take what you did, the bare-bones structure of what you were trying to do, how you were attacking the song, and attack it in pretty much the same way, just with more intensity to show you that you could’ve come harder" - Bun B

Re

The stories of those airplane crashes were crazy. Living in Asia the last 4 years, i can definitely relate to his assertion that certain cultural legacies can push a group forward and others can hold back. As a Black American performance artist in Indonesia, i constantly get frustrated with some of my students who are so damn talented and so damn shy. Slowly they are opening up more, but best believe i gotta grab the psychological crowbar.

On the Asian math tip, i can feel him on the language connection, but i can't feel him on the rice paddy thing. If it were a rice thing, then it should apply to everywhere with rice paddies. I live in Bali and there are rice paddies all around me, literally, and though i ain't seen the tests, i don't think math is a Balinese strong point. Cats be grabbin' calculators to give you change for something that costs 50 cents.

How does cultural legacy relate to the descendants of slaves? He mentions "honor" when speaking about northern europeans and southerners, but Black folk prolly got this even more deeply in our cultural mindset today. The word "punk" comes to mind. Can't be a "punk" in the hood. How much crime and violence has went down because someone couldn't be seen as a punk?

On the flip, is creative intelligence so prevalent in the Black community also a direct result of slavery?



Peace


"Basically, I’m going to take what you did, the bare-bones structure of what you were trying to do, how you were attacking the song, and attack it in pretty much the same way, just with more intensity to show you that you could’ve come harder" - Bun B

Re

gotta love work related gifts

I'll be starting it tomorrow after work

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/charlie-rose-a-conversation-with-malcolm-gladwell/

I mean, it's not like he's engaging in the actual discovery
of these ideas, but he certainly does an incredible job
at organizing and communicating them.

I liked the book very much. Particularly the way he addressed
the effects cultural backgrounds have on society when placed
in an unfamiliar context. I can imagine folks taking issue with
this specially since he delves into generalizations.

I like the fact that the idea behind this book is more tangible
and applicable to a social structure than the ideas behind his
previous two.
R.

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he had taking that last chapter a little further and
analyzed the very own circumstances of his success.

I think I understand his restraint, but at that point
I was sorta expecting that. I'm sure someone will get
to that eventually.
R.

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The Beatles heads ripped apart his analysis of them.

In Salon, their resident airline pilot (they have one!) took apart his assessment of the KAL crash.

The Asian persistence ethic cause of rice farming is taken to task when you look @ scores from Asians who didn't grow rice, or Europeans who also routinely round out the top 5.

I think it's the nature of the beast.

one
k. orr

so unless there are any 'experts' who agree with his
analysis, then Outliers would be a bunch of really
interesting b.s.

The funny thing is that this is exactly what makes
Gladwell so remarkable, his ability of turning a concept
from the fringes of mainstream understanding/concern
and give it that nudge onto the main stage.

btw, do you have a link for the Salon piece?
R.

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>so unless there are any 'experts' who agree with his
>analysis, then Outliers would be a bunch of really
>interesting b.s.

No, it's not that.

It's someone with a general knowledge trying to convey specialized knowledge to a general audience.

I don't think he's particularly "wrong" about anything, but the text itself doesn't take into account all the nuance you would really need to break down everything.

I run into this all the time when I talk about the law or hip hop.

Take sampling. Most heads think that it's okay to sample something, just as long as you don't make any money from it. If you make money from it, you're "breaking the law".

It's very difficult to explain to dj's/producers what a copyright violation is and what that means in the legal sense. Most of the time, I have to focus on "what happens in the real world" - I can't really explain it in the legal sense - because my audience would need legal training to understand what's important and what's not important.

>The funny thing is that this is exactly what makes
>Gladwell so remarkable, his ability of turning a concept
>from the fringes of mainstream understanding/concern
>and give it that nudge onto the main stage.
>
>btw, do you have a link for the Salon piece?

http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2008/12/05/askthepilot301/print.html


>http://www.last.fm/user/djrue/

PEACE

i've read selected articles of his from the New Yorker mostly..and excerpts from Tipping Point and Blink.

should i start w/this one or go back?

d

"To call woman the weaker sex is a libel; it is man's injustice to woman. If by strength is meant brute strength, then, indeed, is woman less brute than man. If by strength is meant moral power, then woman is immeasurably man's superior." - Mahatma Ghandi

You don't need to know about Gladwell or anything else.

I wish I could write like him.

and i feel you...i've always loved the way he writes with such clarity. he doesn't waste words or overstate things. simple but intellectually complex.

d

"To call woman the weaker sex is a libel; it is man's injustice to woman. If by strength is meant brute strength, then, indeed, is woman less brute than man. If by strength is meant moral power, then woman is immeasurably man's superior." - Mahatma Gandhi

Gladwell on what we can learn from spaghetti sauce:
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/malcolm_gladwell_on_spaghetti_sauce.html
R.

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