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Subject: "The Munich Post" This topic is locked.
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rather unique
Member since Dec 02nd 2004
1471 posts
Mon Dec-26-05 09:19 PM

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"The Munich Post"


          

i decided the second i saw the trailer that i would see this as soon as it came out

who is seeing the movie today?

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
i'll be seeing it tomorrow night
Dec 23rd 2005
1
RE: The Munich Post
Dec 23rd 2005
2
imma try to check it this w/e
Dec 23rd 2005
3
Gonna see it tomorrow
Dec 23rd 2005
4
i saw it and i loved it, good fuckin story
Dec 23rd 2005
5
good but some needless melodrama
Dec 24th 2005
6
kinda felt the same way about Private Ryan
Dec 24th 2005
9
quality film
Dec 24th 2005
7
I saw her first
Dec 24th 2005
8
thumbs sideways (spoilers)
Dec 26th 2005
22
RE: thumbs sideways (spoilers)
Dec 27th 2005
41
It was pretty good (spoilers)
Dec 26th 2005
28
classy
Dec 26th 2005
30
yeah, I dunno about this
Dec 26th 2005
31
what is there not to know about?
Dec 26th 2005
32
Complaints? Inbox me.
Dec 26th 2005
33
      inbox?
Dec 26th 2005
34
           Alright then.
Dec 26th 2005
35
i dunno what to think
Dec 27th 2005
36
well, if the book is to be believed
Dec 27th 2005
37
      i dont doubt its a great film
Dec 27th 2005
38
           on the one hand it's a distortion of fact
Dec 27th 2005
39
                RE: (spoilers)
Dec 27th 2005
42
I want to see it
Dec 27th 2005
40
I had thought I would see it, but then
Dec 27th 2005
43
if it had 1/8th the budget you would!
Jan 01st 2006
63
if a jew didnt make this film...it would be called anti-semite
Dec 27th 2005
44
i said this before: all he did was put our internal dialogue out there f...
Dec 27th 2005
45
Solid film
Dec 27th 2005
46
I'll cosign all of this
Dec 29th 2005
48
RE: Solid film
Dec 29th 2005
49
      yeah, what he said
Dec 29th 2005
50
           RE: yeah, what he said
Dec 29th 2005
51
           the toy robot (SPOILER)
Dec 29th 2005
52
                RE: the toy robot (SPOILER)
Dec 29th 2005
53
                     yep
Dec 29th 2005
54
                          movie cliche #893
Dec 29th 2005
56
                          they killed a kid
Dec 30th 2005
57
                          but the kid had an AK
Dec 31st 2005
59
                          how did they get away?
Dec 31st 2005
58
                               Another movie cliche
Dec 31st 2005
60
           alright
Dec 29th 2005
55
not seeing it today but.....
Dec 28th 2005
47
Interesting Wall Street Journal Editorial (swipe)
Dec 31st 2005
61
I don't know about some of this guy's comments...
Jan 01st 2006
64
      i get the feeling most of it was taken out of context
Jan 01st 2006
65
      this writer made up his mind b4 he saw the film
Jan 03rd 2006
67
I'm seeing it tomorrow! Cannot wait!!
Dec 31st 2005
62
good movie
Jan 02nd 2006
66
My thoughts on the film (and social commentary/criticisms)
Jan 03rd 2006
68
... you're JEWISH?!
Jan 04th 2006
69
      why is that such a shock?
Jan 04th 2006
70
           ... where have you been for our Jew posts in GD?! I am HURT.
Jan 05th 2006
71
                lol
Jan 05th 2006
72
biggest disappointment of the year
Jan 09th 2006
biggest disappointment of the year
Jan 09th 2006
73
^
Jan 14th 2006
74
This joint was heckla good..
Jan 16th 2006
75

Kungset
Member since Mar 29th 2004
6393 posts
Fri Dec-23-05 02:13 AM

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1. "i'll be seeing it tomorrow night"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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jigga
Charter member
31583 posts
Fri Dec-23-05 02:03 PM

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2. "RE: The Munich Post"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

>i decided the second i saw the trailer that i would see this
>as soon as it came out

My sentiments exactly

>who is seeing the movie today?

U better believe it

  

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biscuit
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8682 posts
Fri Dec-23-05 02:20 PM

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3. "imma try to check it this w/e"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

...

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

*Effasig*

  

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Megas
Member since Apr 21st 2005
1284 posts
Fri Dec-23-05 02:56 PM

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4. "Gonna see it tomorrow"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

hopefully it'll be as good as it seems, cos lately movies i've been seeing haven't been living up to my expectations

  

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Mic_Specialist
Member since Nov 26th 2003
28927 posts
Fri Dec-23-05 08:34 PM

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5. "i saw it and i loved it, good fuckin story"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

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XBOX live: micspecial

  

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zero
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Sat Dec-24-05 02:03 AM

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6. "good but some needless melodrama"
In response to Reply # 0


          

very very well-made (like any spielberg film..), pretty good acting, pretty good plot (though with some elements that dont make sense to me), but it had some of the sentimentalism that plagues spielberg's flicks. it wasnt nearly as bad as, say, the book reading at the end of "minority report" but i still kind of wish he would exlude it.

worth seeing though.

  

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Cre8
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Sat Dec-24-05 02:22 PM

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9. "kinda felt the same way about Private Ryan"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

particularly the 'evil' german dude slowly stabbing the jewish american guy. It had my stomach turning for too long, to the point that I wanted ja dude to be put out of his misery.

I wanna see Munich, just hope it doesn't leave me the same way.

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rather unique
Member since Dec 02nd 2004
1471 posts
Sat Dec-24-05 02:52 AM

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7. "quality film"
In response to Reply # 0


          

i felt i got my money's worth

though it was maybe a bit drawn out at the end

overall, good story and the action scenes were top notch

  

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ZooTown74
Member since May 29th 2002
43582 posts
Sat Dec-24-05 02:13 PM

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8. "I saw her first"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=6&topic_id=132054&mesg_id=132054
___________________________________________________________________________________________
<-------- wants your soul

  

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dj_whatzisname
Charter member
3295 posts
Mon Dec-26-05 05:41 AM

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22. "thumbs sideways (spoilers)"
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Dec-26-05 05:47 AM by dj_whatzisname

  

          

solid, but very repetetive and way too long. and spielberg seems to give the audience no credit. the last half hour was really not necessary, except for the dumb i guess. and it got way too spielbergish at times (al green, the toy robot).

but the dense moral ambiguity was successfully imparted (before i was beat over the head with it) and the film illustrates well the parrallel of the mossad agents' plight to that of the counterinsurgency in iraq, just how the agents' and soldiers' morals and morale are constantly eroded.

that sex/hostage killing scene at the end was _laughable_, though. the idea wasn't bad, but the execution was miserable.

lastly, those are some of the most inept secret agents ever portrayed on film. balling, though.

  

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jigga
Charter member
31583 posts
Tue Dec-27-05 01:19 PM

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41. "RE: thumbs sideways (spoilers)"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

>solid, but very repetetive and way too long. and spielberg
>seems to give the audience no credit. the last half hour was
>really not necessary, except for the dumb i guess. and it got
>way too spielbergish at times (al green, the toy robot).

Toy robot?

>but the dense moral ambiguity was successfully imparted
>(before i was beat over the head with it) and the film
>illustrates well the parrallel of the mossad agents' plight to
>that of the counterinsurgency in iraq, just how the agents'
>and soldiers' morals and morale are constantly eroded.
>
>that sex/hostage killing scene at the end was _laughable_,
>though. the idea wasn't bad, but the execution was miserable.
>
>lastly, those are some of the most inept secret agents ever
>portrayed on film. balling, though.

I wish the movie would've focused on their specialties a little more. Besides the guy who made bombs, Ciran Hinds didnt get 2 do much "cleaning", Daniel Craig seemed more like just a guy who decided 2 drive instead of a getaway driver. And I think they showed the other guy making 1 badge or something. Even w/ its faults tho I still loved the movie & it was certainly 1 of the best I saw this year.

  

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johnny_domino
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17027 posts
Mon Dec-26-05 07:13 PM

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28. "It was pretty good (spoilers)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Plenty of members of the team were having second thoughts from the start. And they made a point a few times about how the information linking the suspects to the bombings was secret intelligence, and not necessarily true. And how that, in killing the leaders, they just brought new harder-line leaders in and caused more killing down the line. It was definitely a bit too long, and the Bana-having-sex-with-his-wife/Israeli-athletes-getting-shot-up-for-the umpteenth-time was pretty ridiculous. Definitely not "Israeli propaganda" though, Spielberg just likes to hit the emotions again and again.

  

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navajo joe
Member since Apr 13th 2005
6306 posts
Mon Dec-26-05 09:26 PM

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30. "classy"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

"Regardless if you listen to me, in the end we'll see."
-Cee-Lo

"You’ve had 4 years of Trump University and are still failing the final exam smh"
-Bree Newsome Bass

  

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johnny_domino
Charter member
17027 posts
Mon Dec-26-05 09:34 PM

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31. "yeah, I dunno about this"
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

  

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navajo joe
Member since Apr 13th 2005
6306 posts
Mon Dec-26-05 09:37 PM

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32. "what is there not to know about?"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

nothing happened.
remember?

"Regardless if you listen to me, in the end we'll see."
-Cee-Lo

"You’ve had 4 years of Trump University and are still failing the final exam smh"
-Bree Newsome Bass

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
84418 posts
Mon Dec-26-05 10:14 PM

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33. "Complaints? Inbox me."
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

He said things that offended people, I said things that offended people, beef was starting, and the guidelines specifically say to squash beef.

For beer lovers: http://thebeertravelguide.com
For movie lovers: http://russellhainline.com

  

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navajo joe
Member since Apr 13th 2005
6306 posts
Mon Dec-26-05 10:16 PM

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34. "inbox?"
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

no, it's not even worth it

this board just took another big fat L

"Regardless if you listen to me, in the end we'll see."
-Cee-Lo

"You’ve had 4 years of Trump University and are still failing the final exam smh"
-Bree Newsome Bass

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
84418 posts
Mon Dec-26-05 10:18 PM

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35. "Alright then."
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

For beer lovers: http://thebeertravelguide.com
For movie lovers: http://russellhainline.com

  

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HighVoltage
Member since Jan 04th 2004
16583 posts
Tue Dec-27-05 01:26 AM

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36. "i dunno what to think"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i havent seen it yet, and i want to see it.


but i think this film is an example of one of the problems of cinema that recreates real stories with fiction.

the facts are that yes, he did kill these men in revenge, however, that is all that is known. all the story in the film about how the targets were tracked down and how they were killed is completely fictional because the truth to these remains unknown.

the assasin also did not sign off on the film saying that it was not an accurate representation of his feelings.


so my problem is that the audience who sees this movie wont know the true story. they believe they will have just got a history lesson, despite the fact that the majority of the film is fiction, somewhat inacurate and loosely based on actual events.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

www.itsallthewaylive.net

www.twitter.com/allthewaylive

  

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navajo joe
Member since Apr 13th 2005
6306 posts
Tue Dec-27-05 01:33 AM

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37. "well, if the book is to be believed"
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

(and there are those that contest it's account of the assassinations)

then you get a very detailed account of how the murders were planned, and executed

regardless of the fact it is a hell of a story that invites all kinds of interpretations

also, there is a wealth of writing on the subject and a large amount of conflicting information (ranging from issues over minor details on up to disputations over the key facts)

i haven't had a chance to see the film yet but from the trailer a number of the killings are in keeping with the accounts in Vengeance

"Regardless if you listen to me, in the end we'll see."
-Cee-Lo

"You’ve had 4 years of Trump University and are still failing the final exam smh"
-Bree Newsome Bass

  

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HighVoltage
Member since Jan 04th 2004
16583 posts
Tue Dec-27-05 02:00 AM

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38. "i dont doubt its a great film"
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

and im looking forward to seeing this.

but i mean, if the dude who actually did these killings said this is not accurate of himself, i feel like im just watching hollywood be hollywood, despite the fact that most people will think this is exactly how it went down (because america is ignorant).

but yes, this story should be told, and who better than spielberg.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

www.itsallthewaylive.net

www.twitter.com/allthewaylive

  

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johnny_domino
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17027 posts
Tue Dec-27-05 02:07 AM

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39. "on the one hand it's a distortion of fact"
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

on the other hand, the movie's not just about the mechanics and fact of revenge killings, it's about what they ultimately accomplish, if anything, and in order to get that point across to the viewing public, a little dramatic license is in order. Conflicted hitman plays a lot better than sure-he's-doing-the-right-thing hitman. And for what it's worth, one of the people I saw it with didn't think he really came off that conflicted.

  

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jigga
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31583 posts
Tue Dec-27-05 01:24 PM

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42. "RE: (spoilers)"
In response to Reply # 39


  

          

>on the other hand, the movie's not just about the mechanics
>and fact of revenge killings, it's about what they ultimately
>accomplish, if anything, and in order to get that point across
>to the viewing public, a little dramatic license is in order.
>Conflicted hitman plays a lot better than
>sure-he's-doing-the-right-thing hitman. And for what it's
>worth, one of the people I saw it with didn't think he really
>came off that conflicted.

I didnt either up until the end once members of his own team died.

  

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lyricistfan
Member since Sep 11th 2002
42752 posts
Tue Dec-27-05 08:52 AM

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40. "I want to see it"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I never knew about the story until I heard about the movie, which is sad since i am not up on past and shit but I am interested in seeing this movie

————————

  

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janey
Charter member
123117 posts
Tue Dec-27-05 01:25 PM

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43. "I had thought I would see it, but then"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I read Anthony Lane's review and realized that it wasn't at all about what I thought it would be about, AND it hit home that it was directed by Spielberg, and I realized that I have no interest whatsoever in seeing a preachy revenge movie.


~~~~~

Breathe and know you're breathing.

  

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DrNO
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Sun Jan-01-06 05:31 PM

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63. "if it had 1/8th the budget you would!"
In response to Reply # 43


  

          

_
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4TztqYaemt0
http://preptimeposse.blogspot.com/

  

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thashadow
Member since Feb 16th 2003
21213 posts
Tue Dec-27-05 03:38 PM

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44. "if a jew didnt make this film...it would be called anti-semite"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

it didn't portray anyone in a good light
but damn...that shit put isreal on blast

only spielberg could have made this

get money.

www.gakcity.com

  

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Mongo
Member since Oct 26th 2005
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Tue Dec-27-05 04:54 PM

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45. "i said this before: all he did was put our internal dialogue out there f..."
In response to Reply # 44


  

          

public consumption.

we been having debates @ this shit within the Jewish community for years.

  

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colonelk
Member since Dec 10th 2002
5056 posts
Tue Dec-27-05 10:16 PM

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46. "Solid film"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

A few unfortunate moments (the "climax," the radio-changing, the oddly executed pool scene). Overall, the most mature thing Senor Spielbergo has done, well, ever.

Spielberg and Kaminski are now (since Wong Kar Wai and Doyle are officially divorced) the best pair of eyes in the business.

--------

hell-below.com

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
84418 posts
Thu Dec-29-05 01:14 AM

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48. "I'll cosign all of this"
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

For beer lovers: http://thebeertravelguide.com
For movie lovers: http://russellhainline.com

  

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jigga
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31583 posts
Thu Dec-29-05 11:31 AM

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49. "RE: Solid film"
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

>A few unfortunate moments (the "climax,"

Bad

the radio-changing,

Thought it was nice comic relief

>the oddly executed pool scene)

Remind me what happened here

  

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johnny_domino
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17027 posts
Thu Dec-29-05 11:57 AM

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50. "yeah, what he said"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

I just didn't wanna look foolish asking about the pool scene first. The radio thing was a little silly, but it was worth it to ease the tension ever-so-slightly.

  

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jigga
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31583 posts
Thu Dec-29-05 12:53 PM

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51. "RE: yeah, what he said"
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

>I just didn't wanna look foolish asking about the pool scene
>first.

Lol, thanks. And I'm still wondering about that toy robot that was talked about earlier. And I wasnt even high when I saw this flick.

The radio thing was a little silly, but it was worth it
>to ease the tension ever-so-slightly.

Zackly

  

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johnny_domino
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17027 posts
Thu Dec-29-05 02:01 PM

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52. "the toy robot (SPOILER)"
In response to Reply # 51


  

          









I think he's referring to that scene after they've blown the guy with the phone into the hospital, but the explosives weren't quite powerful enough to kill him, and the driver is complaining about the bombmaker, who's playing with that toy robot with the remote control on the clothesline. Then the bombmaker drops the remote control into the driver's plate of lunch.

Still clueless about the pool scene though.

  

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jigga
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31583 posts
Thu Dec-29-05 03:14 PM

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53. "RE: the toy robot (SPOILER)"
In response to Reply # 52


  

          

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>I think he's referring to that scene after they've blown the
>guy with the phone into the hospital, but the explosives
>weren't quite powerful enough to kill him, and the driver is
>complaining about the bombmaker, who's playing with that toy
>robot with the remote control on the clothesline. Then the
>bombmaker drops the remote control into the driver's plate of
>lunch.

Didnt the bombmaker drop it into his own plate of lunch?

>Still clueless about the pool scene though.

The only part w/ a pool that I think I recall is when they were about 2 snipe that guy in the house & 1 of the guards spots them. I think he gets shot & falls into the pool?

  

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colonelk
Member since Dec 10th 2002
5056 posts
Thu Dec-29-05 05:30 PM

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54. "yep"
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

He does drop it in his own lunch.

And that's what I meant by the pool scene. These two guys (Craig and Bana) by this point have killed dozens of people. They are at this location where everybody is a known PLO operative. They are forced to shoot this younger guy, though the kid has an AK.

For some reason, as the kid falls dead into the pool (in an overly look-how-pretty-this-is shot) the two stand up and gawk at him with looks of terrible remorse on their faces, thus exposing themselves to the gunfire of a hundred plus PLO guys.

For the record, yes, I realize this was the kid that Bana stopped the Shin Bet commando from shooting in Beirut. But it still isn't really justified that they stand up from their cover and sorrowfully stare at this (to them) relatively inconsequential killing).

AND, these guys who have carefully planned every killing thus far, have no escape route. They have no car waiting, nothing. Is this what they planned to do, shoot Salameh and then just run like hell?

Also, in case my comments above imply sympathy with Bana, et al, I am merely speaking in regards to the psychology of their characters.

--------

hell-below.com

  

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Mynoriti
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56. "movie cliche #893"
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

spare someone's life and they'll definitely come back to haunt you (private ryan anyone?)

>For the record, yes, I realize this was the kid that Bana
>stopped the Shin Bet commando from shooting in Beirut. But it
>still isn't really justified that they stand up from their
>cover and sorrowfully stare at this (to them) relatively
>inconsequential killing).

--------
http://ambitiondeficitdisorder.tumblr.com/

  

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DrNO
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Fri Dec-30-05 10:57 PM

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57. "they killed a kid"
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

it was established that doing that was a line they didn't want to cross.

_
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http://preptimeposse.blogspot.com/

  

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colonelk
Member since Dec 10th 2002
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Sat Dec-31-05 07:25 AM

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59. "but the kid had an AK"
In response to Reply # 57


  

          

These seemed cold-blooded enough that any remorse they had about killing a teen would have happened later, not on the spot.

--------

hell-below.com

  

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dj_whatzisname
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58. "how did they get away?"
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

they just ran? that's the idea? and the dozens of plo gave chase and then just shook their fists angrily like, "you guys!....next time!"

  

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colonelk
Member since Dec 10th 2002
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Sat Dec-31-05 07:26 AM

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60. "Another movie cliche"
In response to Reply # 58


  

          

"Keeping running until the director decides to dissolve!"

--------

hell-below.com

  

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colonelk
Member since Dec 10th 2002
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55. "alright"
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

I'll forgive the radio scene because it ended with Al Green and not "What the World Needs Now (Is Love Sweet Love)" or something. But it did feel a little heavy-handed.

--------

hell-below.com

  

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rare
Member since Oct 12th 2005
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Wed Dec-28-05 04:26 PM

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47. "not seeing it today but....."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

.....the trailer really made me curious.

_______________________________________________________

follow me @ http://instagram.com/xaoux

* Teach me how to forget to think..... *

  

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HighVoltage
Member since Jan 04th 2004
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61. "Interesting Wall Street Journal Editorial (swipe)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

EDITORIAL BOARD


Munich
By BRET STEPHENS
December 31, 2005; Page A8

Steven Spielberg wants you to know one thing about "Munich," his just-released, semi-historical, instantly controversial account of Israel's efforts to avenge the massacre of its athletes at the 1972 Olympics: "I worked very hard," he says, "so this film was not in any way, shape or form going to be an attack on Israel." So why is his movie raising such hackles among Israelis and those generally known as the "pro-Israel" crowd?



Maybe it has something to do with his choice of a screenwriter, Tony Kushner, the Pulitzer Prize-winning playwright brought in by Mr. Spielberg to rework the original screenplay by Eric Roth. Mr. Kushner (who, like Mr. Spielberg, is Jewish) believes that the creation of the state of Israel was "a historical, moral, political calamity" for the Jewish people. He believes the policy of the government of Israel has been "a systematic attempt to destroy the identity of the Palestinian people." He believes that responsibility for making peace between Israelis and Palestinians lies primarily with the Israelis, "inasmuch as they are far more mighty." He believes Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is an "unindicted war criminal."



Maybe it has something to do with Mr. Spielberg's curious use of "Jewish" tropes. Again and again in "Munich," the Israelis are seen counting the cost of each kill, down to the last dollar: $352,000 for an assassination in Rome; $200,000 for a bombing in Paris. "Killing Palestinians isn't exactly cheap," remarks one of the members of the Israeli team. A Frenchman in the business of retailing the whereabouts of wanted men praises Israeli squad leader Avner Kauffman (Eric Bana) because he pays "better than anyone." A Mossad officer warns Kauffman not to overspend his budget. "I want receipts," he says.



Maybe it has something to do with the historical liberties Mr. Spielberg takes in telling the story. "Vengeance," the George Jonas book upon which the film is largely based, is widely considered to be a fabrication. The book is based on a source named Yuval Aviv, who claimed to be the model for Avner but was, according to Israeli sources, never in the Mossad and had no experience in intelligence beyond working as a screener for El Al, the Israeli airline.



Maybe it has something to do with Mr. Spielberg's depiction of the Palestinian targets. The Israeli team's first quarry is an elderly, evidently kindly man whom the audience first encounters reading from his Italian translation of Scheherazade. Target Two is a well-spoken diplomat and doting father. Target Three offers Avner a cigarette from across a balcony; Avner repays the gesture by having him blown to bits in his bed. Another target gives a moving speech about his longing for his homeland and the agony of 24 years of dispossession. There is nothing wrong with depicting Palestinians -- even those involved in terrorism -- as fully rounded human beings. Yet not one of these characters is seen performing the deeds for which they have been targeted, unlike the Israelis in the film, who perform dirty deeds by the dozen.



Maybe it has something to do with the strawman arguments the Israelis offer for exacting their revenge. "The only blood that matters to me is Jewish blood," says Steve (Daniel Craig), the most macho of the Israeli hit men. Steve is a South African Jew, blonde and blue-eyed, and somehow it's no surprise that this Jewish Aryan is made to utter this most racist of views. Avner's mother offers her son an ends-justify-the-means rationalization for his killings: "Whatever it takes," she says, "we have a place on Earth at last." And then there is Prime Minister Golda Meir (Lynn Cohen), who justifies the assassination policy by saying, "forget peace for now, we have to be strong." Never mind that in 1972 neither the Arab states nor the PLO were prepared to live in peace with Israel on any terms. Never mind, too, that peace and strength are not incompatible options.



Maybe it has something to do with the false dichotomy the film establishes between Jewish ideals and Israeli actions. "Every civilization finds it necessary to negotiate compromises with its own values," pronounces the fictional Mrs. Meir. Yet the Torah and Talmud are replete with descriptions of the justified smiting of one enemy or another. (Hanukkah, for instance, commemorates the Maccabean victory over the Seleucid empire.) It is Christianity, not Judaism, that counsels turning the other cheek.



Maybe it has something to do with what in Hollywood is known as the hero's "character arc." Avner is introduced in the film as the quintessential sabra, the son of Zionist pioneers personally selected for the mission by the prime minister herself. But as his doubts about his mission grow, so does his disillusionment with Israel. On a return visit to Israel, he can barely bring himself to shake the hands of two soldiers who congratulate him for his rumored exploits. By film's end, he has moved his family to Brooklyn and convinced himself that the Mossad is targeting him for assassination.



Maybe it has something to do with the film's final scene. Ephraim (Geoffrey Rush), Avner's snarling Mossad handler, has come to New York to ask Avner to "come home." Avner refuses; Israel, apparently, is no longer a suitable place for a morally sensitized man. Next, Avner invites Ephraim to join him at home for supper. "Break bread with me," he says. "Isn't that what Jews do?" Now it's Ephraim who says no, as if to suggest that such old-fashioned courtesies are no longer of interest to today's hard-of-heart Israelis.



Maybe it has something to do with Mr. Spielberg's decision to depict the actual slaughter of the Israeli athletes (bizarrely interwoven with an especially vulgar sex scene) at the end of the film rather than at the beginning. The effect is to jumble cause and consequence; to make the massacre seem like a response to Israeli atrocities; to turn Munich into just another stage in the proverbial cycle of violence, or what Mr. Spielberg calls a "response to a response." Mr. Spielberg has said he made this film as a "tribute" to the fallen athletes. What he has mainly accomplished is to trivialize their murder.



"If you start with an ax to grind," Mr. Kushner recently told the Cleveland Plain-Dealer, "then you write a bad play or movie." To watch "Munich" is to recognize the truth of that statement.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

www.itsallthewaylive.net

www.twitter.com/allthewaylive

  

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Frank Longo
Member since Nov 18th 2003
84418 posts
Sun Jan-01-06 10:08 PM

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64. "I don't know about some of this guy's comments..."
In response to Reply # 61


  

          


>Maybe it has something to do with Mr. Spielberg's curious use
>of "Jewish" tropes. Again and again in "Munich," the Israelis
>are seen counting the cost of each kill, down to the last
>dollar: $352,000 for an assassination in Rome; $200,000 for a
>bombing in Paris. "Killing Palestinians isn't exactly cheap,"
>remarks one of the members of the Israeli team. A Frenchman in
>the business of retailing the whereabouts of wanted men
>praises Israeli squad leader Avner Kauffman (Eric Bana)
>because he pays "better than anyone." A Mossad officer warns
>Kauffman not to overspend his budget. "I want receipts," he
>says.

^^^ BIG STRETCH. "One character didn't leave a good tip in one scene."

>Maybe it has something to do with the historical liberties Mr.
>Spielberg takes in telling the story. "Vengeance," the George
>Jonas book upon which the film is largely based, is widely
>considered to be a fabrication. The book is based on a source
>named Yuval Aviv, who claimed to be the model for Avner but
>was, according to Israeli sources, never in the Mossad and had
>no experience in intelligence beyond working as a screener for
>El Al, the Israeli airline.

Well, the movie (and I believe the book) cover this.

>Maybe it has something to do with Mr. Spielberg's depiction of
>the Palestinian targets. The Israeli team's first quarry is an
>elderly, evidently kindly man whom the audience first
>encounters reading from his Italian translation of
>Scheherazade. Target Two is a well-spoken diplomat and doting
>father. Target Three offers Avner a cigarette from across a
>balcony; Avner repays the gesture by having him blown to bits
>in his bed. Another target gives a moving speech about his
>longing for his homeland and the agony of 24 years of
>dispossession. There is nothing wrong with depicting
>Palestinians -- even those involved in terrorism -- as fully
>rounded human beings. Yet not one of these characters is seen
>performing the deeds for which they have been targeted, unlike
>the Israelis in the film, who perform dirty deeds by the
>dozen.

Um, that's the point. We see the Palestinians committing awful atrocities at the beginning of the film, and the whole moral ambiguity of whether or not these men are truly the guilty parties is a key point. How involved were they? How reliable were Israel's sources? Were they involved with Munich, or is there evidence of them being involved in prior atrocities and they were simply added to the list? I don't think it's anti-Israel to portray Palestinians, even ones attached to terror, doing normal things. Plus, some of the Palestinians fire back at them, so there's some level of guilt for something.

>
>Maybe it has something to do with the strawman arguments the
>Israelis offer for exacting their revenge. "The only blood
>that matters to me is Jewish blood," says Steve (Daniel
>Craig), the most macho of the Israeli hit men. Steve is a
>South African Jew, blonde and blue-eyed, and somehow it's no
>surprise that this Jewish Aryan is made to utter this most
>racist of views. Avner's mother offers her son an
>ends-justify-the-means rationalization for his killings:
>"Whatever it takes," she says, "we have a place on Earth at
>last." And then there is Prime Minister Golda Meir (Lynn
>Cohen), who justifies the assassination policy by saying,
>"forget peace for now, we have to be strong." Never mind that
>in 1972 neither the Arab states nor the PLO were prepared to
>live in peace with Israel on any terms. Never mind, too, that
>peace and strength are not incompatible options.

What? The second-to-last sentence there should explain the level of the tension in that area, and why people would be driven to views like this...


>
>Maybe it has something to do with the false dichotomy the film
>establishes between Jewish ideals and Israeli actions. "Every
>civilization finds it necessary to negotiate compromises with
>its own values," pronounces the fictional Mrs. Meir. Yet the
>Torah and Talmud are replete with descriptions of the
>justified smiting of one enemy or another. (Hanukkah, for
>instance, commemorates the Maccabean victory over the Seleucid
>empire.) It is Christianity, not Judaism, that counsels
>turning the other cheek.

But it's not like Judaism says, "Hey! Murdering is cool!" Nowhere does the Torah say, "You should go murder people who are bad." I think taking that ONE sentence is a weeee bit of a stretch.



>
>
>Maybe it has something to do with Mr. Spielberg's decision to
>depict the actual slaughter of the Israeli athletes (bizarrely
>interwoven with an especially vulgar sex scene) at the end of
>the film rather than at the beginning. The effect is to jumble
>cause and consequence; to make the massacre seem like a
>response to Israeli atrocities; to turn Munich into just
>another stage in the proverbial cycle of violence, or what Mr.
>Spielberg calls a "response to a response." Mr. Spielberg has
>said he made this film as a "tribute" to the fallen athletes.
>What he has mainly accomplished is to trivialize their
>murder.

But it is a cycle, and the Palestinians DID think they were doing the right thing, as odd and fucked up as that sounds. That's the whole point of the film, the cycle of violence. I don't think it necessarily BLAMES the Israelis for this by having it spliced into a sex scene at the end of the film.

>
>
>
>"If you start with an ax to grind," Mr. Kushner recently told
>the Cleveland Plain-Dealer, "then you write a bad play or
>movie." To watch "Munich" is to recognize the truth of that
>statement.

Don't get me wrong, especially the end seems critical of Israel's actions. But I don't think by criticizing Israel, it is condoning Palestine at all. I thought of the end of the film as more along the lines of him wanting to escape this circle of violence so that he may live in peace with his wife and child. Israel and Palestine would both his family and well-being in jeopardy, when considering what position he held for Israel.

I don't know...it's a dense work. But I don't necessarily think it's anti-Israel, just critical of the seeming circle of violence that occurs in the area. I don't even necessarily disagree with some of this man's points. I just think he took this idea and ran a bit too far with it in some areas.

For beer lovers: http://thebeertravelguide.com
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HighVoltage
Member since Jan 04th 2004
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Sun Jan-01-06 11:02 PM

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65. "i get the feeling most of it was taken out of context"
In response to Reply # 64


  

          

i plan on going tomorrow to see it, so ill reserve any comments or judgement til i see it.

regardless of the controversy, i still am looking forward to seeing it, it looks very good and has recieved much critical acclaim

~~~~~~~~~~~~

www.itsallthewaylive.net

www.twitter.com/allthewaylive

  

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Eusebio
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Tue Jan-03-06 03:06 PM

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67. "this writer made up his mind b4 he saw the film"
In response to Reply # 64


  

          


and watched it ready to pounce anywhere he could twisting and misinterpreting anywhere he could.

looking at the palestinian targets who are supposedly shown as "fully rounded human beings", as some of them are shown in their jobs or pastimes (like translating literature) they are not depicted any less guilty or deserving of retaliation. the diplomat is shown as a sneaky hypocrite. he mentions the palestinian cause and says that he doesn't support violence even though we know he was involved in munich. we watch as they almost make the mistake of killing his daughter and everyone is relieved when she is spared and he is blown up.

as u said b4, longo, we see part of the massacre from the very beginning of the film. they're shown throughout as a constant reminder, not as the writer says, to make it look like the munich attacks were a response to bana and his crew.

overall i don't think the film gave that much credit to the palestinian cause...

******************************

I am I be

  

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Indie Visual
Member since Dec 20th 2005
1168 posts
Sat Dec-31-05 11:30 PM

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62. "I'm seeing it tomorrow! Cannot wait!!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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xangeluvr
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Mon Jan-02-06 01:56 PM

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66. "good movie"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

saw it last night and liked it.

  

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HighVoltage
Member since Jan 04th 2004
16583 posts
Tue Jan-03-06 09:33 PM

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68. "My thoughts on the film (and social commentary/criticisms)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Finally saw it this afternoon. excellent, excellent movie! one of the top films of the year by far.

i can go on about the stregnths of the flim, but id prefer to address the criticism by the jewish community the film has recieved (see WSJ editorial in reply #61.)


First off, ill say that im jewish, lets get that out of the bag. so i looked at the film knowing the criticism i read (and didnt support) and wanted to see the film to form my own opinions.

now granted, the film itself is dealing with a very touchy subject.

jews will often scrutinize any negative media against them, especially considering the feud (or better yet war at this point) with the palestinians. because despite what the general population, and im sure many of you think (i wont refer to the 15'ed responses but...), the jews are not the ones in control of the media. watch the news.... whenever the Israelis are bombed, the news footage always shows the scene of the explosion, broken glass, debris etc. However, when the Israeli's retaliate and respond with an attack, the news will show a dead body or a mother grieving over the coffin her dead child. Peter Jennings was the king of this, as he was married to a palestinian woman and had a distinct viewpoint that did not favor the Jews. You could see his bias in his reporting. I wont get into this debate now, but just realize that the jews dont control media or hollywood like many people think, and thats why they are critical of certain hollywood or media depictions.

with that said, i STRONGLY disagree with the criticism of the depiction of jews in this film. I think Spielberg did an excellent job depicting a very difficult series of events. Dont forget, spielberg is a jew, and when i first heard the complaints, it baffled me why a jew would degrade his own people in his depictions of their actions.

***spoiler warnings***

all of the assassinations in the film were justified as the film started off with the horrific events at Munich and had constant flashbacks and dialog throughout (i guess the WSJ dude slept through those parts of the film since he says we didnt see what happend at munich til the very end. Wrong (C) Charlie Murphy.

However, the BIGGEST MISINTERPRETATION was the fact that the head Mossad (eric bana's character) felt remorse at the end of the film. Now the actual assassin said he felt no remorse, and that bana's depiction of him was not accurate for those reasons. HOWEVER, the jews criticizing the film are claiming he felt remorse for killing the arabs, since they were shown as "family men" or "real people" in the film. Thats such bullshit! He DID feel remorse, but it was because he has become one of the hunted. His wife had just gave birth to a baby girl and he wanted to raise a family and put the past behind him... but he became very paranoid of a retaliation attack against him -like 3 of his fellow men faced and were murdered. He felt remorse for not being able to live a normal life with his wife and daughter- NOT for killing the palestinians. In fact, he says numerous times in the film that all the men responsible for Munich, and other Israeli attacks, deserved what they had coming to them.

Overall, my point is that these jewish groups are very defensive since they are a minority and the media depictions of the events in the middle east arent always in their favor. With that in mind, they are very wary of any media that can be used as propaganda against them. However (and this is the important part), Munich is a film that has been misinterpreted by these critical groups. Rarely (maybe once) did i feel the Jews were depicted as wrong in the film (and i was looking for this throughout the film).

bravo spielberg- you amazed me again.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

www.itsallthewaylive.net

www.twitter.com/allthewaylive

  

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Mongo
Member since Oct 26th 2005
45670 posts
Wed Jan-04-06 06:53 PM

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69. "... you're JEWISH?!"
In response to Reply # 68


  

          

  

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HighVoltage
Member since Jan 04th 2004
16583 posts
Wed Jan-04-06 08:44 PM

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70. "why is that such a shock?"
In response to Reply # 69


  

          

~~~~~~~~~~~~

www.itsallthewaylive.net

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Mongo
Member since Oct 26th 2005
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Thu Jan-05-06 12:22 PM

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71. "... where have you been for our Jew posts in GD?! I am HURT."
In response to Reply # 70


  

          

We were THIS shy of a minyan.

THIS shy.

>weeps<

  

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HighVoltage
Member since Jan 04th 2004
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Thu Jan-05-06 02:44 PM

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72. "lol"
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

its hard to keep up with the rapid fire pace of GD... guess i missed it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

www.itsallthewaylive.net

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navajo joe
Member since Apr 13th 2005
6306 posts
Mon Jan-09-06 02:18 PM

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"biggest disappointment of the year"


  

          

i don't know what picture everyone else watched but if there was ever a picture to showcase spielberg's weaknesses it was this one.

yes, there was some masterful filmmaking but there was a good amount of shit that was amatuer night

the best thing about this picture was the trailer

"Regardless if you listen to me, in the end we'll see."
-Cee-Lo

"You’ve had 4 years of Trump University and are still failing the final exam smh"
-Bree Newsome Bass

  

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navajo joe
Member since Apr 13th 2005
6306 posts
Mon Jan-09-06 02:18 PM

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73. "biggest disappointment of the year"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i don't know what picture everyone else watched but if there was ever a picture to showcase spielberg's weaknesses it was this one.

yes, there was some masterful filmmaking but there was a good amount of shit that was amatuer night

the best thing about this picture was the trailer

"Regardless if you listen to me, in the end we'll see."
-Cee-Lo

"You’ve had 4 years of Trump University and are still failing the final exam smh"
-Bree Newsome Bass

  

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Science_Fiction
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Sat Jan-14-06 12:07 PM

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74. "^"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

*****************
With all due respect...
ask around.

  

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Mongo Slade
Member since Jun 28th 2002
2745 posts
Mon Jan-16-06 04:11 PM

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75. "This joint was heckla good.."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


I'd need to see it again cause I'm not up on the details behind the story so alot probalby went over my head...

but just from a film perspective...cinematography, depth...and f it..action shyt was dope...

got to be one of the best joints out right now..

*****************************************
http://mephonics.com/
*****************************************

  

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