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Subject: "14 points of Fascism" Previous topic | Next topic
legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Mon Jan-23-17 11:18 AM

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"14 points of Fascism"
Mon Jan-23-17 11:24 AM by legsdiamond

          

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/11/20/1452457/-Time-to-pull-out-again-The-14-Points-of-Fascism

The 14 points of Fascism

1) Powerful and Continuing Nationalism

Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.



2) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights

Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.



3) Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause

The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.




4) Supremacy of the Military

Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.




5) Rampant Sexism

The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.



6) Controlled Mass Media

Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.



7) Obsession with National Security

Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.



8) Religion and Government are Intertwined

Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.




9) Corporate Power is Protected

The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.




10) Labor Power is Suppressed

Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.




11) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts

Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.




12) Obsession with Crime and Punishment

Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.




13) Rampant Cronyism and Corruption

Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.




14) Fraudulent Elections

Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
When was this written?
Jan 23rd 2017
1
Lol. Right? It seems like the author tailored it to fit the current envi...
Jan 23rd 2017
2
This was published in 2015 on Daily Kos
Jan 23rd 2017
3
here is the original from 1943
Jan 23rd 2017
4
Man, I had an Umberto Eco book years ago. Hard-as-hell to read normally.
Jan 23rd 2017
6
So the USA was fascist long before Trump
Jan 23rd 2017
5
To a degree, maybe. And Trump is a pretty big step.
Jan 23rd 2017
7
Hmm seems like this resistance to teachers and college is new
Jan 23rd 2017
8
This sentiment (and others related) makes Trump stronger.
Jan 23rd 2017
10
America is run by banks and corporate interests not presidents
Jan 23rd 2017
13
lol base
Jan 23rd 2017
11
The reality is America has to practice fascism to stay majority white
Jan 23rd 2017
12
Good read here:
Jan 23rd 2017
9
this didn't get enough replies then and here we are
Aug 14th 2020
14
No question.
Aug 14th 2020
15
Can you keep tugging on this string, please?
Aug 14th 2020
16
      absolutely. i promise to come back to this.
Aug 14th 2020
17
      Excellent, thanks!
Aug 14th 2020
18
           Have you listened to the "Scene on Radio" podcast ?
Aug 15th 2020
19
                Hm.. I may check it out
Aug 16th 2020
20
                Right. In practice (supreme court rulings, policy loopholes, etc.) ...
Aug 17th 2020
24
                I'll look into it!
Aug 17th 2020
27
                     Yep yep yep. Pretty much the premise of the podcast right here.
Aug 17th 2020
30
      Ok I'm back, sir
Aug 16th 2020
21
      Yep. You'll love Scene on Radio.
Aug 17th 2020
25
      Meant to post #23 here
Aug 17th 2020
26
      (The Justice System) no, thats exactly how it works
Aug 17th 2020
28
      huh?
Aug 17th 2020
31
      i believe in us, people like you dont
Aug 17th 2020
32
      ^^^Our culture^^^
Sep 21st 2020
34
      The choice of examples is really instructive
Aug 17th 2020
29
      according to the CIA and other sources,
Aug 16th 2020
22
My wife works in education research
Aug 17th 2020
23
you had me until this:
Sep 21st 2020
33

flipnile
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Mon Jan-23-17 11:20 AM

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1. "When was this written?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

  

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PimpTrickGangstaClik
Member since Oct 06th 2005
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Mon Jan-23-17 11:28 AM

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2. "Lol. Right? It seems like the author tailored it to fit the current envi..."
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

Not saying I disagree with its points. It's just too on the nose

_______________________________________
You ain't the only one whose got problems. You ain't the only one who knows pain. Get up off your ass and just solve them. You still got a chance to try to change, try the shit again.
Devin tha Dude

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Mon Jan-23-17 11:28 AM

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3. "This was published in 2015 on Daily Kos"
In response to Reply # 1


          

I added the link. Not sure if it was remixed or pullled from another source

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Mon Jan-23-17 11:31 AM

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4. "here is the original from 1943"
In response to Reply # 0


          

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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flipnile
Member since Nov 05th 2003
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Mon Jan-23-17 11:53 AM

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6. "Man, I had an Umberto Eco book years ago. Hard-as-hell to read normally."
In response to Reply # 4


          

One of those authors that I have to be in a deep zone to read.


Thanks for this link tho.

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
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Mon Jan-23-17 11:46 AM

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5. "So the USA was fascist long before Trump"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

He just makes it obvious.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

  

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Backbone
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Mon Jan-23-17 12:13 PM

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7. "To a degree, maybe. And Trump is a pretty big step."
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

But the US aren't really there yet. A huge protest like the women's march would have been impossible (or way, way more violent) under full fledged fascism. The arts and journalism might not be in great shape, but open criticism is still possible and while education is definitely still an affair of the privileged, it's not suppressed like in fascist regimes. There are plenty of exceptions that stand between the USA in 2017 and, for example, Italy in 1940.

I really hope Americans will be able to prevent Trump from sending the country further down that slope, though.

___________________
"So this is what everybody's always talking about! Diablo! If only I'd known. The beauty! The beauty!"

  

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legsdiamond
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Mon Jan-23-17 12:17 PM

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8. " Hmm seems like this resistance to teachers and college is new"
In response to Reply # 5


          

The way these fools attack education is scary.

Fascism definitely feels like a white mans wet dream tho...

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
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Mon Jan-23-17 03:36 PM

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10. "This sentiment (and others related) makes Trump stronger."
In response to Reply # 5


          

You are playing semantical games with the word 'fascism'....stretching it's definition so as one could not distinguish Mussilini's Italy from Obama's America. Stop it.

  

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Atillah Moor
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Mon Jan-23-17 04:15 PM

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13. "America is run by banks and corporate interests not presidents "
In response to Reply # 10
Mon Jan-23-17 04:16 PM by Atillah Moor

  

          

it was never Obama's America and it's not Trump's America either. It's called White America and for good reason as the people who run the banks and corporations are White.

  

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Madvillain 626
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Mon Jan-23-17 04:02 PM

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11. "lol base"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

I was reading thinking "shit, we been doing most of these"

-------------------------------
If life is stupendous one cannot also demand that it should be easy. - Robert Musil

  

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Atillah Moor
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Mon Jan-23-17 04:12 PM

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12. "The reality is America has to practice fascism to stay majority white "
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

no other way around it.

  

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denny
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Mon Jan-23-17 03:26 PM

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9. "Good read here:"
In response to Reply # 0


          

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/01/donald-trumps-authoritarian-politics-of-memory/514004/

"The deference to the leader allows another crucial element of authoritarian rule to fall into place: the discrediting of all alternate sources of information. The confusion sowed by Trump from the start of his campaign (“we’ve got to figure out what’s going on”), which crucially extends to the facts of his personal history (Putin? “I don’t know him”), built to a blanket denunciation of all non-Trump information. “Media is fake!” the president-elect tweeted on January 8, preparing Americans for the onset of a new era in which truth is what Trump wants it to be."

  

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Damali
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Fri Aug-14-20 10:51 AM

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14. "this didn't get enough replies then and here we are"
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Aug-14-20 11:16 AM by Damali

          

i would even argue that America has always been this, though...its more pronounced now...more obvious

but we've been 'fake free' for a good minute...arguably the whole time.

d

  

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Brew
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Fri Aug-14-20 11:06 AM

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15. "No question."
In response to Reply # 14


          

>i would even argue that American has always been this
>though...its more pronounced now...more obvious
>
>but we've been 'fake free' for a good minute...arguably the
>whole time.
>
>d

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Walleye
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Fri Aug-14-20 11:11 AM

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16. "Can you keep tugging on this string, please?"
In response to Reply # 14


          

>but we've been 'fake free' for a good minute...arguably the
>whole time.

I kind of lean on a similar construction with respect to the idea of "freedom" as it seems like you're putting together here, but sometimes I have a hard time articulating it in a way that engages people in the way I want. Is there a way for me to say that I'm curious to hear you say more about this without making it sound like I'm smugly trying to make you show your work. I mean, I am - but because I want to see it, not because I'm smug.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Damali
Member since Sep 12th 2002
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Fri Aug-14-20 11:21 AM

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17. "absolutely. i promise to come back to this."
In response to Reply # 16


          

>>but we've been 'fake free' for a good minute...arguably the
>>whole time.
>
>I kind of lean on a similar construction with respect to the
>idea of "freedom" as it seems like you're putting together
>here, but sometimes I have a hard time articulating it in a
>way that engages people in the way I want.

Same here..i'm slowly figuring out how to make it make sense outside of my own thoughts...

Is there a way for
>me to say that I'm curious to hear you say more about this
>without making it sound like I'm smugly trying to make you
>show your work. I mean, I am - but because I want to see it,
>not because I'm smug.

you just did and yes, i want to talk about this with you (and everyone) more, but i need to get some work done lol...imma close this site and come back either this evening or tomorrow and write more

d

  

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Walleye
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Fri Aug-14-20 11:38 AM

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18. "Excellent, thanks!"
In response to Reply # 17


          

Kinda of grouchy that I am now reminded that I also have work I should be doing, but it wasn't going to just go away because I refused to look at it.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Brew
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Sat Aug-15-20 12:03 AM

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19. "Have you listened to the "Scene on Radio" podcast ?"
In response to Reply # 18
Sat Aug-15-20 12:08 AM by Brew

          

The most recent season is about "democracy" and how the US has never actually come anywhere close to being one. Racism/white supremacy naturally play a huge role topically.

Anyway I bring this up because I feel like the hosts articulated a lot of the thoughts I've long had about true freedom and democracy in ways that I've never been able to.

That said, I know that Damali will do exactly the same when she responds. Just figured I'd offer some great content I've recently heard in case you guys hadn't heard it.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Damali
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20. "Hm.. I may check it out"
In response to Reply # 19


          

>The most recent season is about "democracy" and how the US
>has never actually come anywhere close to being one.
>Racism/white supremacy naturally play a huge role topically.

Yes, this is exactly what I meant by "fake free"...its all been an illusion...some shit written on paper that looks/seems real enough (or is real if you aren't Black/Brown/disabled/old etc etc) but really isn't

>That said, I know that Damali will do exactly the same when
>she responds.

I'm pretty sure the folks on that podcast have the particulars sorted out way better than I do...

Just figured I'd offer some great content I've
>recently heard in case you guys hadn't heard it.

Thanks so much!

d

  

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Brew
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24. "Right. In practice (supreme court rulings, policy loopholes, etc.) ..."
In response to Reply # 20


          

>Yes, this is exactly what I meant by "fake free"...its all
>been an illusion...some shit written on paper that looks/seems
>real enough (or is real if you aren't Black/Brown/disabled/old
>etc etc) but really isn't

We've never come anywhere close to being an *actual* democracy and have experienced significant pushback each time we, the people, have attempted to progress toward an actual full democracy.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Walleye
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27. "I'll look into it!"
In response to Reply # 19


          

>The most recent season is about "democracy" and how the US
>has never actually come anywhere close to being one.
>Racism/white supremacy naturally play a huge role topically.

Absolutely. Our prosperity is protected by stability which is protected by the order created by the Constitution. But that's not an inherently democratic document, ratified without the approval of women, black people, and indigenous people. Coincidentally, the same groups that have been enlisted for free labor and/or were the reluctant "source" of our free land. It's bullshit all the way down.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Brew
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Mon Aug-17-20 01:17 PM

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30. "Yep yep yep. Pretty much the premise of the podcast right here."
In response to Reply # 27


          

>Absolutely. Our prosperity is protected by stability which is
>protected by the order created by the Constitution. But that's
>not an inherently democratic document, ratified without the
>approval of women, black people, and indigenous people.
>Coincidentally, the same groups that have been enlisted for
>free labor and/or were the reluctant "source" of our free
>land. It's bullshit all the way down.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Damali
Member since Sep 12th 2002
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Sun Aug-16-20 07:22 PM

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21. "Ok I'm back, sir"
In response to Reply # 16


          


>I kind of lean on a similar construction with respect to the
>idea of "freedom" as it seems like you're putting together
>here, but sometimes I have a hard time articulating it in a
>way that engages people in the way I want.


Imma try to parse it out with a few examples.

The "Justice System"

This country, on paper, has one of the strongest, fairest court/jury trial systems in the entire world. Just think of the ideas around being tried by a jury of your peers, you're guaranteed an attorney if you can't afford one, being considered innocent until proven guilty, keeping juries protected from being victimized by defendants, how the jury pool is chosen etc etc

But that's not how it REALLY works, especially for Black people...public defenders often railroad us or are in cahoots w/the DA to cut terrible deals, jury duty is avoided by many smart,intelligent folks, or don't reflect the actual "peers" of the defendant (i.e. an all white racist ass jury for a Black defendant), Black defendants are almost always assumed to be guilty and have to prove otherwise, jury selection process is often tainted and biased

and we haven't even TOUCHED the prison system, which does not even attempt to rehabiliatate anyway and uses them (mostly US) for slave labor of for-profit companies and sets us up to return by politicizing "reentry" programs...

do we need to talk about the death penalty and who usually dies? or the racist/sexist and corrupt constructs of bail bonds (bounty hunters anyone?), parole, probation, prison guards, clemency hearings, pardons?

i'm already exhausted....i cant do a few more examples...writing that out just made me angry and sad...

other examples anyone else is free to examine are:
Voting
Public Education
Healthcare
Housing
Employment

anyway, you get the drift. we fake free.

d

  

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Brew
Member since Nov 23rd 2002
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25. "Yep. You'll love Scene on Radio."
In response to Reply # 21


          

They cover a good chunk of what's below, and much more. I learned a lot of BS I didn't previously know.


>Imma try to parse it out with a few examples.
>
>The "Justice System"
>
>This country, on paper, has one of the strongest, fairest
>court/jury trial systems in the entire world. Just think of
>the ideas around being tried by a jury of your peers, you're
>guaranteed an attorney if you can't afford one, being
>considered innocent until proven guilty, keeping juries
>protected from being victimized by defendants, how the jury
>pool is chosen etc etc
>
>But that's not how it REALLY works, especially for Black
>people...public defenders often railroad us or are in cahoots
>w/the DA to cut terrible deals, jury duty is avoided by many
>smart,intelligent folks, or don't reflect the actual "peers"
>of the defendant (i.e. an all white racist ass jury for a
>Black defendant), Black defendants are almost always assumed
>to be guilty and have to prove otherwise, jury selection
>process is often tainted and biased
>
>and we haven't even TOUCHED the prison system, which does not
>even attempt to rehabiliatate anyway and uses them (mostly US)
>for slave labor of for-profit companies and sets us up to
>return by politicizing "reentry" programs...
>
>do we need to talk about the death penalty and who usually
>dies? or the racist/sexist and corrupt constructs of bail
>bonds (bounty hunters anyone?), parole, probation, prison
>guards, clemency hearings, pardons?
>
>i'm already exhausted....i cant do a few more
>examples...writing that out just made me angry and sad...
>
>other examples anyone else is free to examine are:
>Voting
>Public Education
>Healthcare
>Housing
>Employment
>
>anyway, you get the drift. we fake free.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

  

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Walleye
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Mon Aug-17-20 12:52 PM

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26. "Meant to post #23 here"
In response to Reply # 21


          

Buttons, man.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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seasoned vet
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Mon Aug-17-20 01:01 PM

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28. "(The Justice System) no, thats exactly how it works"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

our culture just refuses to learn how to play the game

  

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Damali
Member since Sep 12th 2002
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Mon Aug-17-20 02:59 PM

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31. "huh?"
In response to Reply # 28


          

>our culture just refuses to learn how to play the game

what do you mean by this?

  

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seasoned vet
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Mon Aug-17-20 08:47 PM

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32. "i believe in us, people like you dont"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Mon Sep-21-20 03:53 PM

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34. "^^^Our culture^^^"
In response to Reply # 28


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Walleye
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Mon Aug-17-20 01:05 PM

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29. "The choice of examples is really instructive"
In response to Reply # 21


          

You've got interior genealogies of systems that use safety to justify coercive state violence. I mean, that's the thinnest freedom there is - that evildoers are assuredly out there and *must* be harmed so that I can be safe.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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tariqhu
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Sun Aug-16-20 10:00 PM

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22. "according to the CIA and other sources,"
In response to Reply # 16
Sun Aug-16-20 10:04 PM by tariqhu

          

we're a Constitutional Federal Republic.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/299.html

scroll down to find the USA.

Basically, we have indirect democracy. we don't completely govern ourselves. we elect representatives who are bound to the constitution.

not of it means we're completely free or will be treated fairly. even in a true democracy, fairness isn't certain since its sheer numbers.

Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

  

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Walleye
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Mon Aug-17-20 12:16 PM

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23. "My wife works in education research"
In response to Reply # 0


          

... she does quantitative research, which means we don't typically have a lot to talk about when it comes to the in-the-weeds of each others' jobs. Which is fine. A job's just a part of our life, not the whole thing. And I'm good hearing about the broadstrokes of a project she's proud of even if I don't understand the math.

But one thing we can talk about a lot is the way in which we created a lot of impressive-in-theory institutions in the early centuries of our country but, faced with the failures (big or small) of those institutions, we're often really unwilling to return to a close examination of What We Understand as Good and How We Ought to Pursue It. Rather - the thing that we need to do is slap repair after repair after repair on the institutions themselves, forgetting that an institution or a system is just a tool to achieve an outcome, not the outcome itself.

Maybe that's not the most direct way to think about it, but that's why I wanted to hear you weigh in and, whether you want to put it the same way or not, that's sort of what I'm picking up with this really apt discussion of the distinction between Justice and our justice system.

We spent some considerable thought and effort through, say, the middle of the 20th century constructing these liberal institutions under the notion that, once established, the rules that govern them will permit them to just run passively, with the occasional tuneup. That's why I particularly liked, in the justice system example, how you focused on our affective relationship with the system - more than anything, it provides a *feeling* of fairness, strength, integrity, and ultimately - stability: we created this strong, fair, air-tight system to deliver justice and the best way for it to run is with minimal external interference. Leave the system alone and it will deliver the fair results that it was created to deliver.

But *if* those institutions and systems we created make us free, it's a passive freedom. They keep external influence away from a pure idea of Justice or Education or Democracy and as long as they can operate unfettered, those values will be delivered to us. But that doesn't account for the more pervasive threat to freedom - the ones that are founded in the interior, that seem good and true and natural to us but are in reality disordered understandings of human freedom that we read into our relationships and our labor and so pervert those outcomes as well.

In my view, fascism seeks to normalize that disordered freedom and tells us that the threats to freedom are external and not internal, that our well-tuned interior states truly understand the world: one within-groups and out-groups, one with competition so thoroughly written through it that there is no such thing as success without somebody else's failure and suffering. The world fascists create is one that we have to be afraid of, which is why we need the fascists.

Fascism is popular because it gives people, the ones it chooses at least, the thing it promises: safety, stability, the suffering of enemies who seek to unravel that safety and security. It also has an internal accounting of why those virtues may be in dwindling supply (internal foes acting on behalf of external values), which means that even though it typically rises when times are lean, it can still thrive when times are fat because then it can say that fascism is winning now but that we must be vigilant to preserve those gains because the enemy within is always present and active in trying to undermine national order.

People often cite the domestic use of colonial means of control as a sign of fascism, and I think that works really well as both a sign as a demonstration of the underlying logic of the thing signified - that the creation of an in-group requires and is buttressed by the creation of an out-group.

But I think that liberalism offers a gentler version of the same dynamic, except that instead of protecting the idea of ethnic/national, we embody that sense of belonging and define ourselves according to the institutions that must be protected. Which then invites a close relationship between liberalism and fascism because the people who want to dismantle (or even explicitly challenge) those institutions make themselves into a dangerous enemy-within who wants to challenge the source of our safety and security. Only instead of a gender or religion or ethnicity, the source is those institutions.

This doesn't make the institutions themselves bad, just our devotion to them. You can't overhaul our secondary history curriculum because it comes from History Education as an institution and so delivers the story of us. You can't abolish prisons or the police because they keep us safe. You can't abolish the military for the same reason.

I've stopped heading somewhere useful awhile ago, if I was ever heading there in the first place. Thanks for replying. I really appreciated reading your view of how our attachment to this deceptive sort of freedom grows, develops, and so becomes really tough to uproot.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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Damali
Member since Sep 12th 2002
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Mon Sep-21-20 02:35 PM

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33. "you had me until this:"
In response to Reply # 23


          


>But I think that liberalism offers a gentler version of the
>same dynamic, except that instead of protecting the idea of
>ethnic/national, we embody that sense of belonging and define
>ourselves according to the institutions that must be
>protected. Which then invites a close relationship between
>liberalism and fascism because the people who want to
>dismantle (or even explicitly challenge) those institutions
>make themselves into a dangerous enemy-within who wants to
>challenge the source of our safety and security. Only instead
>of a gender or religion or ethnicity, the source is those
>institutions.


yeah i don't know man...that feels like a bit of a reach to me. I need to know how you're defining liberalism and if that definition includes progressivism...

>This doesn't make the institutions themselves bad, just our
>devotion to them.

'devotion' is doing a heavy lift here. Institutions are important..they aren't the end all be all, but they serve a function in any healthy society.


>
>I've stopped heading somewhere useful awhile ago, if I was
>ever heading there in the first place. Thanks for replying. I
>really appreciated reading your view of how our attachment to
>this deceptive sort of freedom grows, develops, and so becomes
>really tough to uproot.

you're welcome..and word. this is an important discussion that needs to keep going on this Board. too much mindless crap on the first page

d

  

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