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scorpion
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29592 posts
Thu Oct-04-01 07:04 AM

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"Champagne Soul..."


  

          

This is for AFKAP to continue his theories on soul...

In short, he thinks that the assasination of King put people in a less idyllic mood and that's when cynicism and paranoia(Smiling Faces...Backstabbers, etc) started creeping into soul. Gamlbe and Huff came along during this period and he feel that they started to change their game up a bit, and along with Barry White and Teddy Pendergrass, he blames them for the advent of what he calls Champagne Soul(super smooth sophisticated love trax)

Feel free to discuss

*******
allwedoiswindimoto.tumblr.com
www.windimoto.com

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
Judas Smile
Oct 04th 2001
1
AFKAP is...
Oct 04th 2001
2
      RE: AFKAP is...
Oct 04th 2001
4
           I think his point...
Oct 04th 2001
5
           RE: I think his point...
Oct 04th 2001
7
                You can..
Oct 04th 2001
9
           Sam Cooke
Oct 04th 2001
10
                I knew I could count on you man....
Oct 05th 2001
74
                     RE: I knew I could count on you man....
Oct 05th 2001
143
                          didn't 'you send me'
Oct 05th 2001
173
                               like i said...
Oct 06th 2001
175
Honestly...
Oct 04th 2001
3
did it start w/Gamble & Huff?
Oct 04th 2001
6
RE: did it start w/Gamble & Huff?
Oct 04th 2001
8
      RE: did it start w/Gamble & Huff?
Oct 04th 2001
11
      RE: did it start w/Gamble & Huff?
Oct 04th 2001
12
      Please continue....
Oct 04th 2001
13
      NO!!!!
Oct 04th 2001
53
      Let's Get It On
Oct 04th 2001
54
           I don't see it that way.
Oct 04th 2001
56
                i don't mean musically
Oct 04th 2001
57
      RE: did it start w/Gamble & Huff?
Oct 04th 2001
58
RE: Champagne Soul...
Oct 04th 2001
14
i liked it, too.
Oct 04th 2001
15
      so when does it begin???
Oct 04th 2001
16
      I agree...
Oct 04th 2001
17
           My question is...
Oct 04th 2001
18
           RE: My question is...
Oct 04th 2001
20
                RE: My question is...
Oct 04th 2001
22
                     RE: My question is...
Oct 04th 2001
28
                          Nah brah,
Oct 04th 2001
32
           RE: I agree...
Oct 04th 2001
19
                of course they did....
Oct 04th 2001
21
                     not to mention...
Oct 04th 2001
23
                     RE: of course they did....
Oct 04th 2001
24
                     its possible...
Oct 04th 2001
25
                     RE: of course they did....
Oct 04th 2001
27
                          RE: of course they did....
Oct 05th 2001
70
                     uh...
Oct 04th 2001
26
                          I find it funny..
Oct 04th 2001
29
                          RE: I find it funny..
Oct 04th 2001
30
                               RE: I find it funny..
Oct 04th 2001
34
                                    RE: I find it funny..
Oct 04th 2001
37
                                    Jodeci reunion
Oct 04th 2001
38
                                         RE: Jodeci reunion
Oct 04th 2001
40
                          RE: uh...
Oct 04th 2001
31
                               Prince..
Oct 04th 2001
35
                               RE: Prince..
Oct 04th 2001
39
                               that's part of it.
Oct 04th 2001
36
                                    Afro/Euro
Oct 04th 2001
41
                                    escapism
Oct 04th 2001
44
                                         RE: escapism
Oct 04th 2001
46
                                         RE: escapism
Oct 04th 2001
48
                                              Hip Hop????
Oct 04th 2001
60
                                                   RE: Hip Hop????
Oct 05th 2001
72
                                                        It's all relative
Oct 05th 2001
76
                                                             RE: It's all relative
Oct 05th 2001
78
                                                             That's a great quote
Oct 05th 2001
82
                                                             definitely.
Oct 05th 2001
81
                                                                  It's definitely
Oct 05th 2001
86
                                                                       i guess
Oct 05th 2001
89
                                                                            hey again...
Oct 05th 2001
170
                                                                                 blues was secular.
Oct 06th 2001
176
                                                                                 WAIT...
Oct 06th 2001
178
                                                                                 okay,then...
Oct 07th 2001
179
                                                                                 here goes...
Oct 07th 2001
180
                                                                                 hmph.
Oct 08th 2001
181
                                                                                 well...
Oct 08th 2001
227
                                         RE: escapism
Oct 04th 2001
47
                                              OK then...
Oct 04th 2001
50
                                                   well...
Oct 04th 2001
51
                                                        RE: well...
Oct 04th 2001
52
                                    RE: that's part of it.
Oct 04th 2001
42
                                         i dug it, too!
Oct 04th 2001
43
                                              RE: i dug it, too!
Oct 04th 2001
45
                                                   i don't think it's a circle...
Oct 04th 2001
49
Isleys/Ojays
Oct 04th 2001
33
The Isleys are Black Music.
Oct 04th 2001
55
To be continued......
Oct 04th 2001
59
I'd just like...
Oct 04th 2001
61
RE: I'd just like...
Oct 05th 2001
63
When it dies i want an instant archive
Oct 05th 2001
99
Continuation...
Oct 05th 2001
62
okay...
Oct 05th 2001
64
RE: Continuation...
Oct 05th 2001
65
      Maxwell
Oct 05th 2001
66
           RE: Maxwell
Oct 05th 2001
67
                RE: Maxwell
Oct 05th 2001
68
                Not to sound like a brat or nothing
Oct 05th 2001
69
                RE: Maxwell
Oct 05th 2001
71
                     No more Max...
Oct 05th 2001
73
                          I think
Oct 05th 2001
75
                          Barry...
Oct 05th 2001
77
                          Damn player...
Oct 05th 2001
79
                          RE: Damn player...
Oct 05th 2001
83
                               Maybe...
Oct 05th 2001
87
                          RE: Barry...
Oct 05th 2001
91
                               but
Oct 05th 2001
95
                          Barry set the trend
Oct 05th 2001
80
                               RE: Barry set the trend
Oct 05th 2001
84
                               women's lib
Oct 05th 2001
85
                                    RE: women's lib
Oct 05th 2001
88
                                    i think i see...
Oct 05th 2001
90
                                         Chicks dig....
Oct 05th 2001
94
                                    RE: women's lib
Oct 05th 2001
93
                                         The reason....
Oct 05th 2001
96
Mad Dog 20/20 soul...
Oct 05th 2001
92
RE: Mad Dog 20/20 soul...
Oct 05th 2001
97
RE: Mad Dog 20/20 soul...
Oct 05th 2001
103
      You should know...
Oct 05th 2001
107
           RE: You should know...
Oct 05th 2001
109
                Parliament....
Oct 05th 2001
111
                     RE: Parliament....
Oct 05th 2001
112
Great point
Oct 05th 2001
98
      let me make clear
Oct 05th 2001
100
      Could you be more descriptive
Oct 05th 2001
135
           i know...
Oct 05th 2001
138
                I missed what you said before
Oct 05th 2001
167
      RE: Great point
Oct 05th 2001
104
Funk, Disco, & Soul
Oct 05th 2001
101
well...
Oct 05th 2001
102
      Only a few
Oct 05th 2001
105
           ha-ha
Oct 05th 2001
106
                Giorgio Moroder?..
Oct 05th 2001
108
                     RE: Giorgio Moroder?..
Oct 05th 2001
110
                     RE: Giorgio Moroder?..
Oct 05th 2001
113
                          RE: Giorgio Moroder?..
Oct 05th 2001
114
                               oh come on, man...
Oct 05th 2001
115
                                    M. Jackson 76-81
Oct 05th 2001
116
                                         wait a minute...
Oct 05th 2001
117
                                              RE: wait a minute...
Oct 05th 2001
118
                                                   oh.
Oct 05th 2001
119
                                                   Where do you think....
Oct 05th 2001
120
                                                        RE: Where do you think....
Oct 05th 2001
123
                                                             Roy Ayers....
Oct 05th 2001
128
                                                                  Mama's Gun
Oct 05th 2001
131
                                                                  SO much to say
Oct 05th 2001
133
                                                                  I'm interested to know
Oct 06th 2001
174
                                                                       i didn't say that.
Oct 06th 2001
177
                                                                  RE: Roy Ayers....
Oct 05th 2001
168
                                                   How does House fit into the picture...
Oct 05th 2001
121
                                                        RE: How does House fit into the picture...
Oct 05th 2001
122
                                                        House....
Oct 05th 2001
124
                                                             HotThyng76 where you at...
Oct 05th 2001
125
                                                             discodj?
Oct 05th 2001
126
                                                                  Pinch Hitting
Oct 05th 2001
127
                                                                       i knew that.
Oct 05th 2001
129
                                                                       Gee, thanks
Oct 05th 2001
130
                                                                            well, keep working at it, dear
Oct 05th 2001
132
                                                                                 nah. pomposity is not my aspiration
Oct 05th 2001
134
                                                                                 honey...
Oct 05th 2001
136
                                                                                 RE: honey...
Oct 05th 2001
137
                                                                                 RE: honey...
Oct 05th 2001
140
                                                                                 RE: honey...
Oct 05th 2001
141
                                                                                 that's irrelevant.
Oct 05th 2001
142
                                                                                 not at all
Oct 05th 2001
144
                                                                                 when i say texts...
Oct 05th 2001
145
                                                                                 RE: when i say texts...
Oct 05th 2001
146
                                                                                 that's nonsense!
Oct 05th 2001
147
                                                                                 RE: that's nonsense!
Oct 05th 2001
148
                                                                                 listen:
Oct 05th 2001
149
                                                                                 How
Oct 05th 2001
150
                                                                                 RE: that's nonsense!
Oct 05th 2001
151
                                                                                 very good point. n/m
Oct 05th 2001
152
                                                                                 who said
Oct 05th 2001
153
                                                                                 commercial
Oct 05th 2001
155
                                                                                 RE: commercial
Oct 05th 2001
159
                                                                                 for what it's worth...
Oct 05th 2001
171
                                                                                 hey ana.....
Oct 05th 2001
154
                                                                                 cute
Oct 05th 2001
156
                                                                                 I just flipped it....
Oct 05th 2001
157
                                                                                 I'd love to
Oct 05th 2001
158
                                                                                 I'll be over to pick ya up...
Oct 05th 2001
160
                                                                                 RE: I'll be over to pick ya up...
Oct 05th 2001
161
                                                                                 That's lower than
Oct 05th 2001
163
                                                                       true house
Oct 05th 2001
139
                                                                            and you can check the likes of Roy Davis Jr. to get a feel for that too.
Oct 05th 2001
165
                                                             You are wrong. be quiet.
Oct 05th 2001
162
                                                             Hold up....
Oct 05th 2001
169
                                                                  RE: Hold up....
Oct 08th 2001
182
                                                                       Like I said...
Oct 08th 2001
183
                                                                            RE: Like I said...
Oct 08th 2001
184
                                                                                 RE: Like I said...
Oct 08th 2001
185
                                                                                      but...
Oct 08th 2001
186
                                                                                      That's true..
Oct 08th 2001
187
                                                                                      when you put it that way
Oct 08th 2001
189
                                                                                      I've got ....
Oct 08th 2001
192
                                                                                      RE: I've got ....
Oct 08th 2001
195
                                                                                      No...
Oct 08th 2001
197
                                                                                      Back up
Oct 08th 2001
199
                                                                                      RE: That's true..
Oct 08th 2001
190
                                                                                      hip-hop
Oct 08th 2001
191
                                                                                      Early 80's....
Oct 08th 2001
194
                                                                                      RE: Early 80's....
Oct 08th 2001
196
                                                                                      Please, spare me...
Oct 08th 2001
198
                                                                                      RE: Please, spare me...
Oct 08th 2001
200
                                                                                      RE: Please, spare me...
Oct 08th 2001
201
                                                                                      Apparently
Oct 08th 2001
203
                                                                                      Of course not...
Oct 08th 2001
204
                                                                                      this is going nowhere...
Oct 08th 2001
206
                                                                                      Before I...
Oct 08th 2001
208
                                                                                      kinda
Oct 08th 2001
209
                                                                                      In the 70's...
Oct 08th 2001
210
                                                                                      was there no stuff to talk about?
Oct 08th 2001
211
                                                                                      Watergate...
Oct 08th 2001
219
                                                                                      definitely...
Oct 08th 2001
220
                                                                                      the Prince Theory...
Oct 08th 2001
223
                                                                                      mm-hm...
Oct 08th 2001
224
                                                                                      Disco...
Oct 08th 2001
225
                                                                                      how about...
Oct 08th 2001
228
                                                                                      Explain this....
Oct 08th 2001
230
                                                                                      ah. forget it...
Oct 08th 2001
232
                                                                                      RE: ah. forget it...
Oct 08th 2001
234
                                                                                      yeah...
Oct 08th 2001
235
                                                                                      Where did you get this info from
Oct 08th 2001
242
                                                                                      which info?
Oct 08th 2001
243
                                                                                      Marvin vs. Daddy
Oct 08th 2001
244
                                                                                      oh that.
Oct 08th 2001
245
                                                                                      RE: Disco...
Oct 08th 2001
229
                                                                                      RE: Disco...
Oct 08th 2001
231
                                                                                      I'm not saying
Oct 08th 2001
233
                                                                                      RE: Disco...
Oct 08th 2001
236
                                                                                      huh?
Oct 08th 2001
237
                                                                                      RE: huh?
Oct 08th 2001
238
                                                                                      definitely...
Oct 08th 2001
239
                                                                                      Tony Washington
Oct 09th 2001
246
                                                                                      the times
Oct 08th 2001
212
                                                                                      waitaminnit!
Oct 08th 2001
214
                                                                                      RE: waitaminnit!
Oct 08th 2001
216
                                                                                      FYI
Oct 08th 2001
217
                                                                                      shee-it
Oct 08th 2001
218
                                                                                      and i said
Oct 08th 2001
221
                                                                                      okay then...
Oct 08th 2001
222
                                                                                      Also
Oct 08th 2001
193
                                                                                      danger will robinson!
Oct 08th 2001
202
                                                                                      RE: danger will robinson!
Oct 08th 2001
205
                                                                                      RE: danger will robinson!
Oct 08th 2001
207
                                                                                      RE: danger will robinson!
Oct 08th 2001
215
                                                                                      RE: but...
Oct 08th 2001
188
                                                             Oh..about house music.
Oct 05th 2001
164
ARCHIVE THIS POST.
Oct 05th 2001
166
...
Oct 05th 2001
172
Dearest Moderator
Oct 08th 2001
226
start another thread
Oct 08th 2001
213
hell no
Oct 08th 2001
240
      RE: hell no
Oct 08th 2001
241
ARCHIVE
Oct 11th 2001
247

psykosoul
Charter member
3059 posts
Thu Oct-04-01 07:11 AM

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1. "Judas Smile"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

This is a new track floating around (might not be the correct title) which he seems to be talking about this theory and a "Chocolate Invasion". At the end of it he gives shout-outs to Erykah Badu, Common, Maceo (Macy Gray or Parker?), and Big Luv ( ?uestlove ?).

http://www.imeem.com/psykosoul

  

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scorpion
Charter member
29592 posts
Thu Oct-04-01 07:14 AM

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2. "AFKAP is..."
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

an Okayplayer....

Prince is not...

didnt mean to confuse you.

*******
allwedoiswindimoto.tumblr.com
www.windimoto.com

  

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psykosoul
Charter member
3059 posts
Thu Oct-04-01 07:42 AM

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4. "RE: AFKAP is..."
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

>an Okayplayer....
>
>Prince is not...
>
>didnt mean to confuse you.


Sorry, my fault. Didn't realize you were talking about that dude.

However, this "Champagne Soul" theory isn't very concrete. There were plenty of soul acts singing seductive soul music during/before civil rights movement i.e. Sam Cook. But one must keep in mind that life in general music spawned many a revolution in music and sex. String arrangements and seductive soul have always been part of one another. Marvin Gaye did a hell of a lot to influence this. Look at the progression from "What's Going On" to "I Want You". Gamble and Huff just practically moved it from Detroit to Philly.

http://www.imeem.com/psykosoul

  

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scorpion
Charter member
29592 posts
Thu Oct-04-01 07:48 AM

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5. "I think his point..."
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

was that music that bigged up black folk disappeared in favor of "Champagne Soul"

*******
allwedoiswindimoto.tumblr.com
www.windimoto.com

  

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psykosoul
Charter member
3059 posts
Thu Oct-04-01 07:55 AM

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7. "RE: I think his point..."
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

>was that music that bigged up
>black folk disappeared in favor
>of "Champagne Soul"

I say blame it on the industry and not the artist. Look at the trend of Afro-Centric music. Who would black kids (majority of music consumers) rather see perform a live show today, Common or Jay-Z.

http://www.imeem.com/psykosoul

  

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scorpion
Charter member
29592 posts
Thu Oct-04-01 08:00 AM

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9. "You can.."
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

...water your shit down a little or sell all the way out. And most cats sell all the way out. Look at the Isleys

*******
allwedoiswindimoto.tumblr.com
www.windimoto.com

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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84244 posts
Thu Oct-04-01 08:08 AM

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10. "Sam Cooke"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

was not a soul singer, really...

besides, his shit was not "seductive" in the way that TP or Barry White were.

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Warren Coolidge
Charter member
41998 posts
Fri Oct-05-01 06:38 AM

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74. "I knew I could count on you man...."
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

>was not a soul singer, really...
>
>
>besides, his shit was not "seductive"
>in the way that TP
>or Barry White were.



I take a day off work, dragging because it's friday, and you're always good to pep me up.

Now we add to the list "SAM COOKE WAS NOT A SOUL SINGER"

ok. I'm hoping you'll explain this one...

One thing I would say is that the gospel influenced secular music is really what soul music is all about. You mention about the civil rights movement, and sure that changed the music, but the secular music that church based folks made was initially called the blues, then as it became more vocal based, it was called soul...Sam Cooke is like the male missing link between that...



  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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84244 posts
Fri Oct-05-01 09:42 AM

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143. "RE: I knew I could count on you man...."
In response to Reply # 74


  

          

Sam was the missing link, but he did not really sing a lot of soul. he did lots of lounge stuff, pop stuff, show tunes, a few blues... but until "change gonna come," he wasn't really singing soul.

Sam is called the first soul singer not because of his music, really, but because his life was an actualization of what soul meant (ie the biggest gospel singer in the country giving it all up to sing secular music and paying the ultimate price for it) his life epitomized that struggle.

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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BobbyBlue
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722 posts
Fri Oct-05-01 11:34 PM

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173. "didn't 'you send me'"
In response to Reply # 143


          

make many a young girl weak at the knees? Wouldn't that seduction of some sort?

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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84244 posts
Sat Oct-06-01 04:59 AM

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175. "like i said..."
In response to Reply # 173


  

          

soul music was always sexy and seductive, but not as obsessively and (dare i say) panderingly as it was in the 70s.

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Blaise
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2271 posts
Thu Oct-04-01 07:29 AM

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3. "Honestly..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Gamble and Huff could do no wrong in my book. I'm really looking forward to The Gamble and Huff Sessions. I think it comes out next week. Maybe they were the begining of super smooth soul. But that's just another subset of the genre. I think they did it well. Musicianship was incredible.


*****************************************************************
dat nigga is sleeping on the couch with cheese doodle dust around his mouth. (c)grannie on what D'Angelo is doing

Because love is when you say " Goddamn that shit is so dope, I gotta be on it fuck it. I don't care if yall niggaz ain't got enough money in your budget, I'll do it on the strength". That's love!- Cormega

"I can make it rain when I'm mad enough,"... "I can spin the world off its axis and bring it right back two seconds later. I mean, fuck it. They're challenging me, and I'm gonna show the sons of bitches."- Jaguar Wright

"You know a nigga got gifts" - Quentin(The Best Man)

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Per

  

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HotThyng76
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51232 posts
Thu Oct-04-01 07:52 AM

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6. "did it start w/Gamble & Huff?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

To me, Champagne Soul didn't really get going till the late 70s and early 80s.

I can't really describe it well, except to say that it's highly polished R&B balladry. "Just the Two of Us" by Grover Washington Jr and Bill Withers is to me the quintessential Champagne Soul cut. It's a song made for you to enjoy while sipping Riunite on ice or riding around in your 1980 Chrysler New Yorker. You know, those little boxy luxury cars.

_______________________

  

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scorpion
Charter member
29592 posts
Thu Oct-04-01 07:58 AM

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8. "RE: did it start w/Gamble & Huff?"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

>To me, Champagne Soul didn't really
>get going till the late
>70s and early 80s.
>
>I can't really describe it well,
>except to say that it's
>highly polished R&B balladry.
>"Just the Two of Us"
>by Grover Washington Jr and
>Bill Withers is to me
>the quintessential Champagne Soul cut.
> It's a song made
>for you to enjoy while
>sipping Riunite on ice or
>riding around in your 1980
>Chrysler New Yorker. You
>know, those little boxy luxury
>cars.


LOL!!! Man, I remeber Riunite, cats in the hood sippin' Riunite like its Cris or some'n. Remember they used to have wine commercials on TV. Interestingly, the album Just The Two...is from is called Winelight. I think that he is right about Barry White turning it into a genre. It is basically seduction/after the date/can I fuck? music. Let's Get It On was 1973. So I think it started much earlier....

*******
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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Thu Oct-04-01 08:10 AM

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11. "RE: did it start w/Gamble & Huff?"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

i don't really blame Gamble & Huff... i think they just helped set the stage for it. they actually produced the most complex and conscious soul music ever.

but stuff like "love i lost" really set the ball rollin' on disco, too...

_____________________

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Blaise
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12. "RE: did it start w/Gamble & Huff?"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

>but stuff like "love i lost" really set the ball rollin' on disco, too...

Yeah, I see your point on those type of joints but I think that was only a small part of their body of work. But I can definitely see where they did put their two cents in.


*****************************************************************
dat nigga is sleeping on the couch with cheese doodle dust around his mouth. (c)grannie on what D'Angelo is doing

Because love is when you say " Goddamn that shit is so dope, I gotta be on it fuck it. I don't care if yall niggaz ain't got enough money in your budget, I'll do it on the strength". That's love!- Cormega

"I can make it rain when I'm mad enough,"... "I can spin the world off its axis and bring it right back two seconds later. I mean, fuck it. They're challenging me, and I'm gonna show the sons of bitches."- Jaguar Wright

"You know a nigga got gifts" - Quentin(The Best Man)

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Per

  

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scorpion
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Thu Oct-04-01 08:15 AM

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13. "Please continue...."
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

your train of thought. I really wanna see where you go with this.

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HotThyng76
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Thu Oct-04-01 09:44 AM

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53. "NO!!!!"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

Hell no.

"Let's Get It On" is NOT NOT NOT champagne soul.

Champagne soul isn't sexy or overly soulful. It's clean, precise, and highly polished. Another example - "After The Love Is Gone" by Earth Wind & Fire.

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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54. "Let's Get It On"
In response to Reply # 53


  

          

was the template, though…

I think a lot of champagne soul was trying to be Let's Get It On and ended up being a kind of parody of it.

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HotThyng76
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Thu Oct-04-01 09:51 AM

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56. "I don't see it that way."
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

B/c champagne soul is so watered down and washed out, I can't see even a HINT of "Let's Get It On" in it.

I think champagne soul owes more to disco than it does to "Let's Get It On".

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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57. "i don't mean musically"
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

I mean in its obsession with its own dick

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coldestwinterevr
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Thu Oct-04-01 09:56 AM

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58. "RE: did it start w/Gamble & Huff?"
In response to Reply # 8


          

LOL this conjures up images of the Colt45 commercials with Billy Dee Williams....completes the picture!



"You know Bobby crooked...matter of fact Bobby wanna come around more because you got more uhhh...assets."-Nelly on having shady friends,on MTV documentary about Hip Hop and Crime


  

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scorpion
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Thu Oct-04-01 08:18 AM

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14. "RE: Champagne Soul..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

BTW, I really like a lot of that stuff...

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Thu Oct-04-01 08:25 AM

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15. "i liked it, too."
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

but I think it's important that we figure out a way to distinguish between it and "true" soul. or if you don't agree with me that the 60s and early 70s are the only "true" soul eras, then I'll say that we have to chart the development and/or decline of soul music.

I first started thinking about this stuff because I got tired of people blaming this generation of R&B singers for "killing" soul. like soul died when Teddy Riley started making records or something. my theory is that it had been dying slowing since 1974 or so and if anything, New Jack Swing helped bring a certain vitality back to the genre that had been missing since the "champagne" era.

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hypnotic
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Thu Oct-04-01 08:29 AM

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16. "so when does it begin???"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

and wasnt it shortlived

see to me its all soul music but you can see a natural progression from one genre into the next in a way man yall make me want to care about music again

_______________________________________
U make me feel like cookies, yo. (c)DeePhunk

  

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scorpion
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Thu Oct-04-01 08:31 AM

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17. "I agree..."
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

with you that it had been slowly dying since the '70s. Like i sadi b4 look at the Isleys career to see the rise and fall of soul music from Twist and Shout to Contagious. Its not that this generation killed it, they just made sure it was dead. Actually I'll put some blame on the producers as well.

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Blaise
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Thu Oct-04-01 08:38 AM

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18. "My question is..."
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

What is it going to take to get back to that good shit? And honestly, I can live with some of the stuff that's out now. But how do we get the balance? It was quite different back then. I was reading Oprah interviewing Quincy Jones(latest issue of "O")and he was saying that cats now a days don't hone(sp) their skills... they don't know their craft... they don't know where it all comes from. I remember Barry White saying the same thing. It's true to some extent. How many cats out there can actually play? It's to easy to say you're a musician now.

*****************************************************************
dat nigga is sleeping on the couch with cheese doodle dust around his mouth. (c)grannie on what D'Angelo is doing

Because love is when you say " Goddamn that shit is so dope, I gotta be on it fuck it. I don't care if yall niggaz ain't got enough money in your budget, I'll do it on the strength". That's love!- Cormega

"I can make it rain when I'm mad enough,"... "I can spin the world off its axis and bring it right back two seconds later. I mean, fuck it. They're challenging me, and I'm gonna show the sons of bitches."- Jaguar Wright

"You know a nigga got gifts" - Quentin(The Best Man)

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Per

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Thu Oct-04-01 08:40 AM

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20. "RE: My question is..."
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

that's kinda beside the point, though... i mean, the musicianship issue. it's definitely important, but shit, the cats in the early 80s could play their asses off, yet they weren't making no soul music (i'm talking abou the post-disco dance bands like Midnight Star, Brass Construction, Skyy and all them)

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Blaise
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22. "RE: My question is..."
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

>that's kinda beside the point, though... i mean, the >musicianship issue. it's definitely important, but shit, the >cats in the early 80s could play their asses off, yet they >weren't making no soul music

Point taken. Well, let's look at the 80's. What would be on the list of soul recording during that time?

*****************************************************************
dat nigga is sleeping on the couch with cheese doodle dust around his mouth. (c)grannie on what D'Angelo is doing

Because love is when you say " Goddamn that shit is so dope, I gotta be on it fuck it. I don't care if yall niggaz ain't got enough money in your budget, I'll do it on the strength". That's love!- Cormega

"I can make it rain when I'm mad enough,"... "I can spin the world off its axis and bring it right back two seconds later. I mean, fuck it. They're challenging me, and I'm gonna show the sons of bitches."- Jaguar Wright

"You know a nigga got gifts" - Quentin(The Best Man)

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Per

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Thu Oct-04-01 08:56 AM

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28. "RE: My question is..."
In response to Reply # 22


  

          


>Point taken. Well, let's look at
>the 80's. What would be
>on the list of soul
>recording during that time?
>

ha! we're back on that again, huh? remember the last time we tried to do this?

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Blaise
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Thu Oct-04-01 09:03 AM

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32. "Nah brah,"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

refresh my memory

*****************************************************************
dat nigga is sleeping on the couch with cheese doodle dust around his mouth. (c)grannie on what D'Angelo is doing

Because love is when you say " Goddamn that shit is so dope, I gotta be on it fuck it. I don't care if yall niggaz ain't got enough money in your budget, I'll do it on the strength". That's love!- Cormega

"I can make it rain when I'm mad enough,"... "I can spin the world off its axis and bring it right back two seconds later. I mean, fuck it. They're challenging me, and I'm gonna show the sons of bitches."- Jaguar Wright

"You know a nigga got gifts" - Quentin(The Best Man)

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Per

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Thu Oct-04-01 08:39 AM

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19. "RE: I agree..."
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

I don't think that this generation "made sure it was dead"… unless you mean that they stopped pretending that they were making soul music in the first place and just concentrated on doing their own thing.

it's easy to see the break in the continuum in the late 80s and early 90s because that was when there was a whole new generation and the previous ones were more or less persona non grata. previously, people were skating from one phase of the music to the next: like if you look at the Isleys or the O'Jays, you can chart their progress from the doo-wop era up until the early 80s… all they had to do was change their hair, the cut of their pants and work with some new producers. but when the late 80s and hip-hop arrived, a lot of bands ( Earth Wind & Fire and the Temps come to mind) got flat top haircuts and thought they were ready to ride the next soul trend… they were sadly disappointed.



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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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scorpion
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Thu Oct-04-01 08:47 AM

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21. "of course they did...."
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

remember '91 everyone was jerkin' themselves off to Boyz II Men, Jodeci, Color Me Badd, Shai, Protrait, etc... sayin' "real soul singing is back" after all the Prince imitators of the '80's.
Then, Uptown did that MTV Unplugged special. Let's not forget Mary-the "queen of Hip-hop Soul". They hyped her like they hype Alicia Keys now, Everyone was trying to get on this "I'm a real soul singer" tip. Christopher Williams and Johnny Gill trying to out-Teddy each other....All in the name of "soul". Eventually, the thug R&B era came into play when these cats realize that they were poor imitations of the soul singers of their childhood...

*******
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scorpion
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Thu Oct-04-01 08:49 AM

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23. "not to mention..."
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

their fucking producers didnt have the songwriting chops to pull it off.

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Blaise
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Thu Oct-04-01 08:51 AM

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24. "RE: of course they did...."
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

good point but that was soul singing not necessarily soul music. Can you really have one without the other? I'm just asking

*****************************************************************
dat nigga is sleeping on the couch with cheese doodle dust around his mouth. (c)grannie on what D'Angelo is doing

Because love is when you say " Goddamn that shit is so dope, I gotta be on it fuck it. I don't care if yall niggaz ain't got enough money in your budget, I'll do it on the strength". That's love!- Cormega

"I can make it rain when I'm mad enough,"... "I can spin the world off its axis and bring it right back two seconds later. I mean, fuck it. They're challenging me, and I'm gonna show the sons of bitches."- Jaguar Wright

"You know a nigga got gifts" - Quentin(The Best Man)

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Per

  

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scorpion
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Thu Oct-04-01 08:54 AM

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25. "its possible..."
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

what I'm saying is that those groups were faking the soul....
the may have been straining their vocal cords but it had no maturity, emotional content, or master songcraft...

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Thu Oct-04-01 08:56 AM

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27. "RE: of course they did...."
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

>good point but that was soul
>singing not necessarily soul music.
>Can you really have one
>without the other? I'm just
>asking
>
>

excellent point!

Jodeci = soul singing, but not necessarily soul music

Donna Summer's early work, same thing.

_____________________

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urbgriot
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Fri Oct-05-01 06:30 AM

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70. "RE: of course they did...."
In response to Reply # 27


          

>>good point but that was soul
>>singing not necessarily soul music.
>>Can you really have one
>>without the other? I'm just
>>asking
>>
>>
>
>excellent point!
>
>Jodeci = soul singing, but not
>necessarily soul music

I don't know Devante's music was quit soulful if you ask me. Matter of fact out of each of the groups mentioned I would classify Jodeci as soul especially the last to albums. A very deep dark soul.

>Donna Summer's early work, same thing.
>



https://twitter.com/onnextlevel

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Thu Oct-04-01 08:54 AM

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26. "uh..."
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

I don't know if I agree with that completely. I know that when Boyz II Men and Jodeci and Shai and all them came out, people were saying that SINGING was back, not necessarily soul-singing. because this was after the Prince-imitators, but more importantly, it was after Milli Vanilli, Black Box and all the other lip-sync scandals and accusations. that's why everybody had to have at least one a cappella cut on their album or in their live performance. there were comparisons made to the Temptations and all that with Boyz II Men, and they were just comparisons, in terms of vocal styles. but for the most part, I remember people being more hyped talking about New Jack and New Jill Swing. in Mary's case, the "Queen of Hip-Hop Soul" was a worthy title… note that the "soul" was always qualified by "hip-hop"… I don't think anybody really saw her as "true" soul.

(then again, I know that I personally saw Jodeci as the return of true soul. and I still believe that for the course of one album only-Forever My Lady-they DID embody the return of real, heavy soul, albeit in a contemporary context)

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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scorpion
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Thu Oct-04-01 08:58 AM

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29. "I find it funny.."
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

that in the wake of Milli Vanili, that there were cats in vocal groups who couldnt sing:

Mike from Boyz II Men
Dalvin and DeVante
Taj and Leelee from SWV

despite all of his faults and his attitude, I think Devante is a genius...

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Thu Oct-04-01 08:59 AM

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30. "RE: I find it funny.."
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

yeah... for a minute there, it looked like Devante was gonna be the future of the funk, but his head got too big.

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Blaise
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Thu Oct-04-01 09:05 AM

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34. "RE: I find it funny.."
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

That nigga started thinkin he was Prince and Dre all rolled into one. I hope he can get it right for the reunion.

*****************************************************************
dat nigga is sleeping on the couch with cheese doodle dust around his mouth. (c)grannie on what D'Angelo is doing

Because love is when you say " Goddamn that shit is so dope, I gotta be on it fuck it. I don't care if yall niggaz ain't got enough money in your budget, I'll do it on the strength". That's love!- Cormega

"I can make it rain when I'm mad enough,"... "I can spin the world off its axis and bring it right back two seconds later. I mean, fuck it. They're challenging me, and I'm gonna show the sons of bitches."- Jaguar Wright

"You know a nigga got gifts" - Quentin(The Best Man)

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Per

  

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scorpion
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29592 posts
Thu Oct-04-01 09:07 AM

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37. "RE: I find it funny.."
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

>That nigga started thinkin he was
>Prince and Dre all rolled
>into one. I hope he
>can get it right for
>the reunion.

EXACTLY!!!!LOL!

*******
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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Thu Oct-04-01 09:08 AM

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38. "Jodeci reunion"
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

i pray it never happens.

believe me... it's gonna suck worse than Guy III

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Blaise
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Thu Oct-04-01 09:11 AM

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40. "RE: Jodeci reunion"
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

>believe me... it's gonna suck worse than Guy III


Lol...I've got the same feeling but I can't help but hold out some hope

*****************************************************************
dat nigga is sleeping on the couch with cheese doodle dust around his mouth. (c)grannie on what D'Angelo is doing

Because love is when you say " Goddamn that shit is so dope, I gotta be on it fuck it. I don't care if yall niggaz ain't got enough money in your budget, I'll do it on the strength". That's love!- Cormega

"I can make it rain when I'm mad enough,"... "I can spin the world off its axis and bring it right back two seconds later. I mean, fuck it. They're challenging me, and I'm gonna show the sons of bitches."- Jaguar Wright

"You know a nigga got gifts" - Quentin(The Best Man)

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Per

  

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Blaise
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2271 posts
Thu Oct-04-01 09:01 AM

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31. "RE: uh..."
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

>(then again, I know that I personally saw Jodeci as the return >of true soul. and I still believe that for the course of one >album only-Forever My Lady-they DID embody the return of real, >heavy soul, albeit in a contemporary context)

I whole heartedly agree with that statement. So what happened after that? Why did they abandon the soul a few albums later(really the Show the After Party the Hotel)? Did the soul go away because of the loot... trends...? If that's the case then we can probably go back to the early 80's and surmise that cats lost their conviction then as well. It no longer was about the groove. It was like fuck the art. I'ma get this paper. It couldn't be that simple though.




*****************************************************************
dat nigga is sleeping on the couch with cheese doodle dust around his mouth. (c)grannie on what D'Angelo is doing

Because love is when you say " Goddamn that shit is so dope, I gotta be on it fuck it. I don't care if yall niggaz ain't got enough money in your budget, I'll do it on the strength". That's love!- Cormega

"I can make it rain when I'm mad enough,"... "I can spin the world off its axis and bring it right back two seconds later. I mean, fuck it. They're challenging me, and I'm gonna show the sons of bitches."- Jaguar Wright

"You know a nigga got gifts" - Quentin(The Best Man)

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Per

  

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scorpion
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29592 posts
Thu Oct-04-01 09:07 AM

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35. "Prince.."
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

was more than a talented guy from Minneapolis, he was a signpost. His rise symbolized the death of soul music.

Ps Dont get it twisted, Prince is/was the Man....

*******
allwedoiswindimoto.tumblr.com
www.windimoto.com

  

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Blaise
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2271 posts
Thu Oct-04-01 09:09 AM

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39. "RE: Prince.."
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

Where did I say he wasn't the man? Now we could argue all day about whether he is now...


*****************************************************************
dat nigga is sleeping on the couch with cheese doodle dust around his mouth. (c)grannie on what D'Angelo is doing

Because love is when you say " Goddamn that shit is so dope, I gotta be on it fuck it. I don't care if yall niggaz ain't got enough money in your budget, I'll do it on the strength". That's love!- Cormega

"I can make it rain when I'm mad enough,"... "I can spin the world off its axis and bring it right back two seconds later. I mean, fuck it. They're challenging me, and I'm gonna show the sons of bitches."- Jaguar Wright

"You know a nigga got gifts" - Quentin(The Best Man)

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Per

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Thu Oct-04-01 09:07 AM

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36. "that's part of it."
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

i think soul was unraveling as early as 1972 (the year the 60s "ended" with Nixon's reelection). some people say 74. ?uest's dad says the music died in 1977 (which was generally a tumultous music year, with the explosion of punk, Saturday Night Fever and the death of Elvis, as well as heavy violence in Jamaica).

Nelson George, though, pinpoints the beginning of the end as "disco lady" by Johnnie Taylor (i can't remember what year that was released). that record sold an unprecedented amount for a black record and after that, the goal was to "cross over" as many soul artists as possible. soul artists all ran from the traditional soul labels to the majors like Epic and everybody started wearing silver boots on their album covers. there were ads in Ebony advertising the "new & improved" Ashford & Simpson, the "new" Gladys Knight (i remember these well)... it was liek everyone was trynna get away from their roots.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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scorpion
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29592 posts
Thu Oct-04-01 09:13 AM

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41. "Afro/Euro"
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

American culture went form being Afrocentric(soul, hippies, revolution, fusion)to Eurocentric(perms, european designers, Studio 54, disco, chic drugs) in the mid-70's. It all started when folks realized that the hippie/revolutionary dream needs a leader/in revolution people die/your gov't WILL kill you/no one wants to lead the way for fear of dying

*******
allwedoiswindimoto.tumblr.com
www.windimoto.com

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Thu Oct-04-01 09:17 AM

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44. "escapism"
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

the 70s were all about that.

some people look at it like, "the revolution of the 60s worked, we ended the war and got rid of Nixon, so we celebrated."

other people feel it was more about "well… the bad guys still won and the economy was fucked, so we just wanted to escape from real life."

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Blaise
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2271 posts
Thu Oct-04-01 09:18 AM

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46. "RE: escapism"
In response to Reply # 44


  

          

So you're saying that a struggle of some sort breeds soul music?


*****************************************************************
dat nigga is sleeping on the couch with cheese doodle dust around his mouth. (c)grannie on what D'Angelo is doing

Because love is when you say " Goddamn that shit is so dope, I gotta be on it fuck it. I don't care if yall niggaz ain't got enough money in your budget, I'll do it on the strength". That's love!- Cormega

"I can make it rain when I'm mad enough,"... "I can spin the world off its axis and bring it right back two seconds later. I mean, fuck it. They're challenging me, and I'm gonna show the sons of bitches."- Jaguar Wright

"You know a nigga got gifts" - Quentin(The Best Man)

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Per

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Thu Oct-04-01 09:21 AM

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48. "RE: escapism"
In response to Reply # 46


  

          

>So you're saying that a struggle
>of some sort breeds soul
>music?
>
>

definitely…

hmm… or am I?

yeah… at its base, soul music is a struggle. the struggle between spiritual aspirations and physical desire. the problem with champagne soul is that it lost the spiritual side completely.

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Wendell
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Thu Oct-04-01 12:25 PM

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60. "Hip Hop????"
In response to Reply # 48


          

>>So you're saying that a struggle
>>of some sort breeds soul
>>music?
>>
>>
>
>definitely…
>
>hmm… or am I?
>
>yeah… at its base, soul music
>is a struggle. the struggle
>between spiritual aspirations and physical
>desire. the problem with champagne
>soul is that it lost
>the spiritual side completely.

Okay then, what about Hip Hop. Specifically mid/late 80's Hip Hop that was full of grit and fire and spiritual significance and political action. It wasn't just party music or some kids blowing off steam. It was a significant change in ideologies. Also, who did it effect the most? My answer would be the people who were old enough to know and understand 60's/70's Soul music. The older generation of "Heads" who remember that music is more than just a form of entertainment. The "Heads" who remembered when the O'Jays had a "message in our(their) Music"

I think that Hip Hop filled that void for a lot of us. And when it lost it's "Soul", we lost interest in it. I know personally, I stopped listening in the mid to late 90's because I thought the following generations were making a mockery of what was built by my generation. This thought process does explain why 5 years is like a generation in Hip Hop years.

I hope I have a chance to build tomorrow with you guys, but I doubt I will.

Peace

Wendell

Peace

Wendell

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Fri Oct-05-01 06:33 AM

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72. "RE: Hip Hop????"
In response to Reply # 60


  

          

hip-hop had "soul," but it was not Soul music... it seemed to be the next best thing for our generation, though... especially since the "golden era" drew heavily from classic soul, you know?

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Wendell
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Fri Oct-05-01 06:40 AM

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76. "It's all relative"
In response to Reply # 72


          

but I believe that Hip Hop was OUR Soul Music.

Peace

Wendell

Peace

Wendell

  

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scorpion
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Fri Oct-05-01 06:44 AM

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78. "RE: It's all relative"
In response to Reply # 76


  

          

Hip-hop's explosion was the product of soul children gettting their fix in a soulless era of music.

*******
allwedoiswindimoto.tumblr.com
www.windimoto.com

  

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Wendell
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Fri Oct-05-01 06:45 AM

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82. "That's a great quote"
In response to Reply # 78


          

Peace

Wendell

Peace

Wendell

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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81. "definitely."
In response to Reply # 76


  

          

it was OUR soul music, but it really was NOT soul music.

and i'm broad of that, because at least we came with something original, unlike the early 80s generation.

but some people want to argue that hip-hop really ISpart of soul music... i think they are very, very wrong.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Wendell
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Fri Oct-05-01 06:47 AM

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86. "It's definitely"
In response to Reply # 81


          

a descendant. But then all music is related somehow.

Peace

Wendell

Peace

Wendell

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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89. "i guess"
In response to Reply # 86


  

          

that all music is related, but in a way i think that hip-hop was the first black music to completely sever ties with the past... i mean, we sampled, but it was a disjointed way of looking at the history of black music. hip-hop has more in common with the blues than with soul in that it was a brand new music that shaped the next century (as hip-hop surely will) and it is unrelentingly secular in conception.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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alek
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Fri Oct-05-01 08:30 PM

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170. "hey again..."
In response to Reply # 89


          

>I think that all music is related, but
>in a way i think
>that hip-hop was the first
>black music to completely sever
>ties with the past...

I guess it depends on how far back you go. I see hiphop as the ultimate (if subconscious) return to the source of Afrodiasporic music: Africa. But we've done that discussion already.

>i
>mean, we sampled, but it
>was a disjointed way of
>looking at the history of
>black music.

Yes, and in that it only has in common

a) the blues (a disjointed look at slave song and spiritual)
b) Jazz (a disjointed/aestheticized look at blues and western harmony
c) Rock n roll...
d) etc.
e) etc.

Musical innoviation, in general, IS a "disjointed look at the history of music."

Hiphop (in that sense) isn't unique.

>hip-hop has more
>in common with the blues
>than with soul in that
>it was a brand new
>music that shaped the next
>century (as hip-hop surely will)
>and it is unrelentingly secular
>in conception.

WHOAAAAAA! You have plans to back up "unrelentingly secular" on either end?

I have three words for you: Blind Willie Johnson.

And I have two quotes for you to compare:

1) "...Can I get an Amen?"

2) "...Somebody say Ho-oo!"

Alek
______________________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What?! What?!

____________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What? What?

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Sat Oct-06-01 05:03 AM

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176. "blues was secular."
In response to Reply # 170


  

          

so secular and fatalistic, in fact, that it was often known as "the devil's music." but as some bluesmen found God (Thomas Dorsey, for example), they took their musical stylings with them to the church and helped create the style we now know as gospel. of course, this was initially viewed as scandalous and songs such as "take my hand, precious lord" were strongly resisted because of their earthy, bluesy feeling.

more on this later, as well as on the "disjointed view of musical history" thing. i gotta run.

_____________________

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alek
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Sat Oct-06-01 11:16 AM

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178. "WAIT..."
In response to Reply # 176


          

>blues was secular, so secular and fatalistic, in fact,
>that it was often known
>as "the devil's music."

I know what it was known as. I think your definition of "secular" is different from mine. Music that deals very directly with spirituality and fate isn't secular. So songs that are dealing with the state of the "soul" aren't secular either. It's just that blues was pretty good at talking about how much the soul needed to get down. Hence, devil's music.

>but
>as some bluesmen found God
>(Thomas Dorsey, for example), they
>took their musical stylings with
>them to the church and
>helped create the style we
>now know as gospel.

Hmm. I'm not sure I buy that chronology at all. You're talking about the impact of country blues on "gospel?" I see it a little bit the other way around, at least as far as the spiritual-->gospel continuum is concerned.

Alek
______________________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What?! What?!

____________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What? What?

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Sun Oct-07-01 01:28 PM

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179. "okay,then..."
In response to Reply # 178


  

          


>I know what it was known
>as. I think your
>definition of "secular" is different
>from mine. Music that
>deals very directly with spirituality
>and fate isn't secular.
>So songs that are dealing
>with the state of the
>"soul" aren't secular either.
>It's just that blues was
>pretty good at talking about
>how much the soul needed
>to get down. Hence,
>devil's music.
>

let me put it this way: it was not rooted in the church. (i know, neither was jazz, really... but it had a lot more church influence in its conception than the blues did. the blues were about as far as you could get from the church.)

>>but
>>as some bluesmen found God
>>(Thomas Dorsey, for example), they
>>took their musical stylings with
>>them to the church and
>>helped create the style we
>>now know as gospel.
>
>Hmm. I'm not sure I buy that chronology at all. You're talking about the impact of country blues on "gospel?" I see it a little bit the other way around, at least as far as the spiritual-->gospel continuum is concerned.
>

well, that's my story and i'm sticking by it. prove me wrong if you will, but it's well known that bluesmen such as Charley Patton and Son House strayed between the church and the blues and brought the blues to church. in any case, i wouldn't doubt that in the course of these transactions there might be some musical traffic from the gospelk direction as well, but by and large, i think blues really shaped that passion in the gospel sound. the Thomas Dorsey composition is generally acknowledged as the first modern Afro-American gospel tune. if you have some other info, my ears are open!


_____________________

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alek
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Sun Oct-07-01 03:41 PM

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180. "here goes..."
In response to Reply # 179


          

>let me put it this way:
>it was not rooted in
>the church.

Definitely true. That doesn't really make it "secular," per se, but I get your point.


>it's well known that bluesmen
>such as Charley Patton and
>Son House strayed between the
>church and the blues and
>brought the blues to church.

Yes, definitely. Here's my contention.

The "spiritual," as distinct from "gospel" music, played a huge part in the development of the blues. It also played a huge part in the development of gospel music itself, but gospel included a lot of those rough edges earthier progressions that instrumental bluesmen brought into the church.

>in any case, i wouldn't
>doubt that in the course
>of these transactions there might
>be some musical traffic from
>the gospelk direction as well,
>but by and large, i
>think blues really shaped that
>passion in the gospel sound.

I was using Blind Willie Johnson as an example of someone who definitely didn't play blues (or gospel), but played a kind of countrified spiritual that had an immense impact on blues musicians of the next "generation" (i.e. Robert Johnson, etc.).

Alek
______________________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What?! What?!

____________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What? What?

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Mon Oct-08-01 02:44 AM

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181. "hmph."
In response to Reply # 180


  

          

>Definitely true. That doesn't really
>make it "secular," per se,
>but I get your point.
>

from the American Heritage Dictionary, 4th ed.:

secular: 1. Worldly, rather than spiritual 2. Not specifically relating to religion or a religious body: _secular music_...

but i get YOUR point.

>
>The "spiritual," as distinct from "gospel"
>music, played a huge part
>in the development of the
>blues. It also played
>a huge part in the
>development of gospel music itself,
>but gospel included a lot
>of those rough edges earthier
>progressions that instrumental bluesmen brought
>into the church.
>

when you say spiritual here, you're not talking about "Negro spirituals," are you?

_____________________

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alek
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Mon Oct-08-01 07:17 AM

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227. "well..."
In response to Reply # 181


          


>>The "spiritual," as distinct from "gospel"
>>music, played a huge part
>>in the development of the
>>blues. It also played
>>a huge part in the
>>development of gospel music itself,
>>but gospel included a lot
>>of those rough edges earthier
>>progressions that instrumental bluesmen brought
>>into the church.

>when you say spiritual here, you're
>not talking about "Negro spirituals,"
>are you?

...I'm talking about the church "spiritual" in general, as it developed in southern and mid-western churches.

Alek

______________________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What?! What?!

____________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What? What?

  

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scorpion
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Thu Oct-04-01 09:19 AM

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47. "RE: escapism"
In response to Reply # 44


  

          

They were like, "Shit,I need a job now"

*******
allwedoiswindimoto.tumblr.com
www.windimoto.com

  

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Blaise
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Thu Oct-04-01 09:22 AM

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50. "OK then..."
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

What about these brothas in the street claimin they're just tryin' to eat? Shit people are out there strugglin' now but we still get uninspired garbage

*****************************************************************
dat nigga is sleeping on the couch with cheese doodle dust around his mouth. (c)grannie on what D'Angelo is doing

Because love is when you say " Goddamn that shit is so dope, I gotta be on it fuck it. I don't care if yall niggaz ain't got enough money in your budget, I'll do it on the strength". That's love!- Cormega

"I can make it rain when I'm mad enough,"... "I can spin the world off its axis and bring it right back two seconds later. I mean, fuck it. They're challenging me, and I'm gonna show the sons of bitches."- Jaguar Wright

"You know a nigga got gifts" - Quentin(The Best Man)

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Per

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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84244 posts
Thu Oct-04-01 09:26 AM

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51. "well..."
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

there was plenty of uninspired shit then, too. and we still do get some jewels today.

but the thing is… this is a different kind of struggle we're fighting today… the stakes are nowhere near as high… I wish I could explain it… let me get my thoughts together here…

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Blaise
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Thu Oct-04-01 09:34 AM

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52. "RE: well..."
In response to Reply # 51


  

          

I think I know where you're going. Back then everybody had a piece of the struggle. Now it's selective.

*****************************************************************
dat nigga is sleeping on the couch with cheese doodle dust around his mouth. (c)grannie on what D'Angelo is doing

Because love is when you say " Goddamn that shit is so dope, I gotta be on it fuck it. I don't care if yall niggaz ain't got enough money in your budget, I'll do it on the strength". That's love!- Cormega

"I can make it rain when I'm mad enough,"... "I can spin the world off its axis and bring it right back two seconds later. I mean, fuck it. They're challenging me, and I'm gonna show the sons of bitches."- Jaguar Wright

"You know a nigga got gifts" - Quentin(The Best Man)

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Per

  

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Blaise
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Thu Oct-04-01 09:13 AM

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42. "RE: that's part of it."
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

kinda off subject but... growing up during that time I remember digging some of that late 70's shit.

*****************************************************************
dat nigga is sleeping on the couch with cheese doodle dust around his mouth. (c)grannie on what D'Angelo is doing

Because love is when you say " Goddamn that shit is so dope, I gotta be on it fuck it. I don't care if yall niggaz ain't got enough money in your budget, I'll do it on the strength". That's love!- Cormega

"I can make it rain when I'm mad enough,"... "I can spin the world off its axis and bring it right back two seconds later. I mean, fuck it. They're challenging me, and I'm gonna show the sons of bitches."- Jaguar Wright

"You know a nigga got gifts" - Quentin(The Best Man)

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Per

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Thu Oct-04-01 09:15 AM

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43. "i dug it, too!"
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

i'm not trying to diss the music of any era here... i like most of it!

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Blaise
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Thu Oct-04-01 09:17 AM

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45. "RE: i dug it, too!"
In response to Reply # 43


  

          

Oh yeah, I feel you. Wasn't saying that. I just want to know when the damn circle is coming back around. We've had false alarms before.

*****************************************************************
dat nigga is sleeping on the couch with cheese doodle dust around his mouth. (c)grannie on what D'Angelo is doing

Because love is when you say " Goddamn that shit is so dope, I gotta be on it fuck it. I don't care if yall niggaz ain't got enough money in your budget, I'll do it on the strength". That's love!- Cormega

"I can make it rain when I'm mad enough,"... "I can spin the world off its axis and bring it right back two seconds later. I mean, fuck it. They're challenging me, and I'm gonna show the sons of bitches."- Jaguar Wright

"You know a nigga got gifts" - Quentin(The Best Man)

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Per

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Thu Oct-04-01 09:22 AM

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49. "i don't think it's a circle..."
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

it's more of a line... we have to keep moving on to new things, but not forget the past.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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scorpion
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33. "Isleys/Ojays"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I think th Isleys are the group to lookat if you want to know the histroy of black music for the last forty years. They have been in on every R&B trend and continue to roll. My respect for them has diminindhed of course, but I think they were in the thick of evry phase of soul that you have mentioned. The Ojay's have been the same thing with different beats from day one.

*******
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HotThyng76
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55. "The Isleys are Black Music."
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

In totality.

As is Stevie Wonder.

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scorpion
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59. "To be continued......"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

tomarrah!

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www.windimoto.com

  

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nighttripper
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Thu Oct-04-01 11:21 PM

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61. "I'd just like..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

to give props to all the participants in this post
this is some quality discussion

or I could just say "up"

Peace
Jean

it's one-liners season in nighttripper's signature:

"I never sleep cause sleep is the cousin of death"

"I'm downlow, I don't think me and my neighbors met"

"While you're watching me, *****, I'm watching your girlfriend"

  

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Blaise
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Fri Oct-05-01 06:01 AM

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63. "RE: I'd just like..."
In response to Reply # 61


  

          

>to give props to all the participants in this post
>this is some quality discussion

Agreed. This definitely one of the best discussions, I've had on the board.

*****************************************************************
dat nigga is sleeping on the couch with cheese doodle dust around his mouth. (c)grannie on what D'Angelo is doing

Because love is when you say " Goddamn that shit is so dope, I gotta be on it fuck it. I don't care if yall niggaz ain't got enough money in your budget, I'll do it on the strength". That's love!- Cormega

"I can make it rain when I'm mad enough,"... "I can spin the world off its axis and bring it right back two seconds later. I mean, fuck it. They're challenging me, and I'm gonna show the sons of bitches."- Jaguar Wright

"You know a nigga got gifts" - Quentin(The Best Man)

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Per

  

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Brandard
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99. "When it dies i want an instant archive"
In response to Reply # 61


  

          

Hatred never ceases by hatred
But by love alone is healed.

This is the ancient and eternal
law.
–The Buddha by way of janey

Giving You True Lesson Moderation Since'03
******

Want something archived? thats what an inbox is for

  

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scorpion
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Fri Oct-05-01 05:59 AM

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62. "Continuation..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Going on from yesterday

*******
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www.windimoto.com

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Fri Oct-05-01 06:03 AM

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64. "okay..."
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

where were we?

i was really distracted yesterday, so forgive me if my points were scattershot and half-formed. hopefully i can really contribute today...

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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scorpion
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Fri Oct-05-01 06:07 AM

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65. "RE: Continuation..."
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

Saying tho, AFKAP, were agreeing so far, I wonder where we differ and get into all that Maxwell sings for bitches stuff, but anyway....

I think that in the '70's people were disillusioned with the "revolution", and alll these shaggy haired college students realized that "Maybe this aint the best route for me, went back to school/got jobs and just tried to live stress free, hence the "me decade, have a nice day, etc"

*******
allwedoiswindimoto.tumblr.com
www.windimoto.com

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Fri Oct-05-01 06:10 AM

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66. "Maxwell"
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

i'm glad you brought him up because i was trying to figure out how to tie him into this!

if we both agree on the champagne soul thing, where do you not get the Maxwell connection?

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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scorpion
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Fri Oct-05-01 06:21 AM

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67. "RE: Maxwell"
In response to Reply # 66


  

          

Now that you have explained your theories a little bit I can see why you wouldnt like Maxwell, my only pronlem with that is that the brother is dope. His shit is quality, and yes he is saying a lot of Champagne soul shit, but he is trying to tie the spirtual into the romantic, this is the soul singers test, many try few succeed. Marvin struggled with this, and Prince struggles with it every day, but those cats came up in a more forgiving industry environment. Maxwell is trying to do something more substantial than just sing "ooh Baby", but his fan base is mostly female, and they dont want to hear why you are attracted to them, they just want you to take your shirt off. So he's stuck right now. Since he's not on the super-macho tip, dudes diss him left and right. I understand where you think that his demeanor is an act. But I dont see it that way, I think Eric Benet and Babyface are waaaaaaay more shameless than Maxwell

*******
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www.windimoto.com

  

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Blaise
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Fri Oct-05-01 06:25 AM

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68. "RE: Maxwell"
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

IMO, Maxwell fits into the category with Eric Benet and Babyface. They're shit is sooooo syrupy. I just don't hear the soul in the MUSIC. Eric and Maxwell's first? Oh I could hear the soul there. But their lastest to me is background music... and hell I can even say its that


*****************************************************************
dat nigga is sleeping on the couch with cheese doodle dust around his mouth. (c)grannie on what D'Angelo is doing

Because love is when you say " Goddamn that shit is so dope, I gotta be on it fuck it. I don't care if yall niggaz ain't got enough money in your budget, I'll do it on the strength". That's love!- Cormega

"I can make it rain when I'm mad enough,"... "I can spin the world off its axis and bring it right back two seconds later. I mean, fuck it. They're challenging me, and I'm gonna show the sons of bitches."- Jaguar Wright

"You know a nigga got gifts" - Quentin(The Best Man)

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Per

  

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Wendell
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Fri Oct-05-01 06:29 AM

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69. "Not to sound like a brat or nothing"
In response to Reply # 67


          

but I had something to say in #60. Address it dammit!!!

Damn, I guess a part of my reading was correct, huh???

Peace

Wendell

Peace

Wendell

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Fri Oct-05-01 06:31 AM

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71. "RE: Maxwell"
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

i was gonna add that Max is more spiritual and more substantial musically than the champagne cats... but i still resent the fact that he has not made ONE song for the brothers!

i mean... when i said this before, people thought i was coming on some gay shit, like i wanted Maxwell to sing love songs to ME. but the thing is... one of the features of champagne soul was its narrowness, the way it made the singer's sexual desires his soul concern, the center of the universe. it was cool on UHS, but it got old real quick. I'm not saying that he should sing "mercy mercy me (the ecology)" or nothing… just acknowledge that there is other shit going on in the world besides you jonesing for some chick. Max says he writes the way he does because he's a romantic, but shit, who was more romantic than Curtis? and look at the shit HE wrote…

I don't like the way that R&B has become just booty music… music that is completely centered around seduction. background music for fucking. I mean, soul was ALWAYS sexy and sensual and all that, but it was so unselfconsciously so… when people started making songs and muttering "this is one is for the ladies," I wanted to puke. there's nothing wrong with talking to the ladies, but I prefer the shit that everyone can relate to.

a good example of Otis Redding. "try a little tenderness". in this song, Otis is talking to the brothers and telling them how to treat a woman. at the same time, the sisters can listen to the song and hear the shit they want to hear as well… see, that's what I mean when I talk about soul music that does not "sing to the bitches."

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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scorpion
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Fri Oct-05-01 06:36 AM

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73. "No more Max..."
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

lets break down this time line thing some more...

Give me your thoughts on Barry White

Ive heard a lot of people dissing him after you did, and Ive NEVER IN MY LIFE heard an anti-Barry White sentiment until now....

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Blaise
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Fri Oct-05-01 06:39 AM

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75. "I think"
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

most Barry backlash came from that whole Ally McBeal crap. To me he allowed them to tarnish his legacy. On the other hand I realize a nigga gotta eat. I mean I really did Barry. His string arrangements alone help define that era.

*****************************************************************
dat nigga is sleeping on the couch with cheese doodle dust around his mouth. (c)grannie on what D'Angelo is doing

Because love is when you say " Goddamn that shit is so dope, I gotta be on it fuck it. I don't care if yall niggaz ain't got enough money in your budget, I'll do it on the strength". That's love!- Cormega

"I can make it rain when I'm mad enough,"... "I can spin the world off its axis and bring it right back two seconds later. I mean, fuck it. They're challenging me, and I'm gonna show the sons of bitches."- Jaguar Wright

"You know a nigga got gifts" - Quentin(The Best Man)

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Per

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Fri Oct-05-01 06:41 AM

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77. "Barry..."
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

let me put it this way:

the first time I saw Barry White was on Soul Train in 1979 or 1980. he was performing "sheet music." after that, I saw him in a magazine with his wife, with her long-ass nails. Barry was wearing a gold lame gown of some sort. I heard some more Barry White music… I thought it was cool.

it wasn't until 1983 that I realized Mr. White was not a comedian.

even at that young age, I sensed that Barry was somehow a parody of soul music, particularly Isaac Hayes, of whom I was something of a fan (I wasn't big into music yet, but I was a big comic book fan and Ike looked like a black superhero with them chains and shit)

Barry is just so overblown, over the top… there's no subtlety in his shit. it's all broad strokes and lowest common denominator with him. I've always thought he was the precursor to R. Kelly… a producer who can make music that is syrupy, sweeping and "sexual," but utterly empty at the same time.

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Blaise
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Fri Oct-05-01 06:44 AM

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79. "Damn player..."
In response to Reply # 77


  

          

was it that bad. I agree that lyrically he left something to be desired... but musically?


*****************************************************************
dat nigga is sleeping on the couch with cheese doodle dust around his mouth. (c)grannie on what D'Angelo is doing

Because love is when you say " Goddamn that shit is so dope, I gotta be on it fuck it. I don't care if yall niggaz ain't got enough money in your budget, I'll do it on the strength". That's love!- Cormega

"I can make it rain when I'm mad enough,"... "I can spin the world off its axis and bring it right back two seconds later. I mean, fuck it. They're challenging me, and I'm gonna show the sons of bitches."- Jaguar Wright

"You know a nigga got gifts" - Quentin(The Best Man)

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Per

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Fri Oct-05-01 06:46 AM

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83. "RE: Damn player..."
In response to Reply # 79


  

          

musically, i was not feeling it.

i enjoy hearing his work sampled by Black Moon, Q-Tip and Mary J. more than listening to the actual records. he had good breakbeats.

man... go listen to Isaac Hayes' To Be Continued and you'll never listen to Barry the same way... Barry was a straight-up parody. even Ike has said that.

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Blaise
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Fri Oct-05-01 06:50 AM

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87. "Maybe..."
In response to Reply # 83


  

          

that's the vein I'm thinking in. Maybe listening to Black Moon etc sample Barry made me appreciate him more. But then again when I would hear him on WBLS as a kid I was diggin him then too.


*****************************************************************
dat nigga is sleeping on the couch with cheese doodle dust around his mouth. (c)grannie on what D'Angelo is doing

Because love is when you say " Goddamn that shit is so dope, I gotta be on it fuck it. I don't care if yall niggaz ain't got enough money in your budget, I'll do it on the strength". That's love!- Cormega

"I can make it rain when I'm mad enough,"... "I can spin the world off its axis and bring it right back two seconds later. I mean, fuck it. They're challenging me, and I'm gonna show the sons of bitches."- Jaguar Wright

"You know a nigga got gifts" - Quentin(The Best Man)

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Per

  

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scorpion
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Fri Oct-05-01 06:53 AM

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91. "RE: Barry..."
In response to Reply # 77


  

          

Not saying Barry wasnt overblown, over the top, but look at James!(a manservant, crew of lackeys, bestowing titles upon himself)

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www.windimoto.com

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Fri Oct-05-01 06:57 AM

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95. "but"
In response to Reply # 91


  

          

James' music was still tight as...

um, i was gonna say something filthy.

Barry's shit was as flaccid as Marvin Gaye's dick at the end of his life

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Wendell
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Fri Oct-05-01 06:44 AM

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80. "Barry set the trend"
In response to Reply # 73


          

that other artist followed. He concentrated on this Champagne Soul, which in hind-sight took the spotlight off the issues of our community and accented the sexual tension created by the Women's Liberation movement.

Peace

Wendell

Peace

Wendell

  

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Blaise
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Fri Oct-05-01 06:47 AM

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84. "RE: Barry set the trend"
In response to Reply # 80


  

          

Yeah, Barry was about the "bitches" but musically a nigga could get down too. Maxwell on the other hand(with UHS being the exception)... I just couldn't feel him.

*****************************************************************
dat nigga is sleeping on the couch with cheese doodle dust around his mouth. (c)grannie on what D'Angelo is doing

Because love is when you say " Goddamn that shit is so dope, I gotta be on it fuck it. I don't care if yall niggaz ain't got enough money in your budget, I'll do it on the strength". That's love!- Cormega

"I can make it rain when I'm mad enough,"... "I can spin the world off its axis and bring it right back two seconds later. I mean, fuck it. They're challenging me, and I'm gonna show the sons of bitches."- Jaguar Wright

"You know a nigga got gifts" - Quentin(The Best Man)

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Per

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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85. "women's lib"
In response to Reply # 80


  

          

in-ter-est-ing!

how do you tie that in?

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scorpion
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Fri Oct-05-01 06:50 AM

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88. "RE: women's lib"
In response to Reply # 85


  

          

I'm all for women being equal but I HATE women's lib songs

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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90. "i think i see..."
In response to Reply # 88


  

          

where he's going…

men had the need to assert themselves. that's why Teddy was so big… they way he could just command a woman…

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scorpion
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94. "Chicks dig...."
In response to Reply # 90


  

          

testosterone! teddy was like the black Burt Reynolds, I do think that he took Marvin's spot, because Marv took his time to make albums, and was inconsistent....

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Wendell
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Fri Oct-05-01 06:55 AM

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93. "RE: women's lib"
In response to Reply # 85


          

That whole "Free Sex Movement" and the "make Love, not War" era had a huge effect on music. Our fav's just followed the wave.

Peace

Wendell

Peace

Wendell

  

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scorpion
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Fri Oct-05-01 06:58 AM

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96. "The reason...."
In response to Reply # 93


  

          

I hate those songs is because women like to play the victim, they refuse to take responsibility for the wrong things they do....

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Warren Coolidge
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Fri Oct-05-01 06:54 AM

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92. "Mad Dog 20/20 soul..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


I see Afkap's point, but again I make the point that things like soul music does not die. True soul champainge soul, it's all based on the general changes in society. Technological advances plays a part. The increased importance of radio and the ability to obtain advertising revenue through radio, social events, racial issues. All of these things set the context for art. Unlike other art forms, music's primary focus changed to what sells, so thus things changed.

Music changing represents the changes in the things I said above. Artists were not(are not) sitting around thinking of ways to "Destroy" soul or funk or anything like that. That's foolish. What we see is the outcome of musical changes within the social context of the items I mentioned.

Two other quick points, what we heard as the consumer had far less to do with the artist's own talent as much as it did record companies and the like and their desire to present what "THEY" wanted to present. When you're hearing Motown records, you're not just hear Marvin, or Stevie, or whomever, your hearing what Mr. Gordy and his associates "DECIDED" that you were going to hear. Artists were not (are not) living in a world where they can say "this is what I'm doing, this it what will be released". There were so many other people to answer to. Artistic freedom was stiffled by this and to not address that in a discussion on what music was or is, makes the point somewhat moot. If the choice of was 100% in the artists hand, that would be a different story. It wasn't and to ignore such a prominent part of an issue, weakens ones argument.

The other thing about 60's and 70's being the only soul eara. Muddy Water's "Baby Please don't go" would be considered blues. Why? Because Muddy was a blues man? Listen to the song. If that song comes out 10years later, and by Otis Redding, it would be soul music. NO change in the song, just a different time frame.

  

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scorpion
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Fri Oct-05-01 07:03 AM

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97. "RE: Mad Dog 20/20 soul..."
In response to Reply # 92


  

          

I think we all realize that the industry played a MAJOR role in the stuff that comes out, I dont think anyone is denying that. My argument was that you DO have a choice. You can choose to disguise your shit(Parliament), water it down just enough to fool the execs(Prince), or sell all the way out(you name it).

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Warren Coolidge
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Fri Oct-05-01 07:22 AM

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103. "RE: Mad Dog 20/20 soul..."
In response to Reply # 97


  

          


>argument was that you DO
>have a choice.

Unless your going to press, distribute and market you're own stuff, you are beholden to the people that will do those things. Limited choice.



You can
>choose to disguise your shit(Parliament),

Disguise what? Parliment was but one manifestation of the PFunk army. I don't know, Pfunk was releasing like 5,6,7 albums a year under different names. When you look at PFunk's body of work it is demonstrative of the entire gammit of Black music. Other than the Isley's I can't think of any other group of people that did more did it different or did it better. These are artists. Folks weren't sitting around trying to figure out how to trick and hoodwink people. This was a large group of people with families to feed. They balanced that with a desire to be different or provacative. To sell records and still be avant garde. To take the mothership around this planet and bring the funk to millions and millions of people through live perfomances containing funk the likes of which have never been seen.




water it down just enough
>to fool the execs(Prince), or
>sell all the way out(you
>name it).

Water what down. Prince came out in the New wave generation. He used what technology was out there. He projected a provacative image, and still manifested those who influenced him.


All this "tricking" "fooling" "killing" "destroying" takes this to an unecessary place. People deal with the hands their given and try to balance artistic change, with things like eating and living. Not an easy task, and probably deserves more respect than critisism and conjecture without knowing ones true intentions.

  

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scorpion
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107. "You should know..."
In response to Reply # 103


  

          

that until 1977 Parliament and Funkadelic, even though it was the same bunch of people, were two different musical entities.
Funkadelic were the acid funk rock revolutionaries who challenged your way of thinking.
Parliament was a way to get George and co. burn on the radio because he knew DAMN well that Funkadelic didnt stand a chance on black radio. So he took out the wild guitar shit, added horns, song structure and a storyline infused with silliness, to disguise the deep shit he was saying...
Example: Funkentelechy-on the surface it sounds like George high in front of the TV, but what it REALLY is is a tirade on mot letting the corporate world corrupt your thought process and make you a SUPERconsumer-sheep. To question what is presented to you. there was a message woven itno the whole Parliament storyline, but you know this already, right?.

Prince wanted to wild otu but he knew he could not, so GRADUALLY he unleashed his freakiness until he built himself and audience.

I'm saying there are ways to get around the system, and these cats figured that out.

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Warren Coolidge
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Fri Oct-05-01 07:43 AM

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109. "RE: You should know..."
In response to Reply # 107


  

          

>that until 1977 Parliament and Funkadelic,
>even though it was the
>same bunch of people, were
>two different musical entities.
>Funkadelic were the acid funk rock
>revolutionaries who challenged your way
>of thinking.
>Parliament was a way to get
>George and co. burn on
>the radio because he knew
>DAMN well that Funkadelic didnt
>stand a chance on black
>radio. So he took out
>the wild guitar shit, added
>horns, song structure and a
>storyline infused with silliness, to
>disguise the deep shit he
>was saying...
>Example: Funkentelechy-on the surface it sounds
>like George high in front
>of the TV, but what
>it REALLY is is a
>tirade on mot letting the
>corporate world corrupt your thought
>process and make you a
>SUPERconsumer-sheep. To question what is
>presented to you. there was
>a message woven itno the
>whole Parliament storyline, but you
>know this already, right?.
>
>Prince wanted to wild otu but
>he knew he could not,
>so GRADUALLY he unleashed his
>freakiness until he built himself
>and audience.
>
>I'm saying there are ways to
>get around the system, and
>these cats figured that out.
>

I see you're point. The way you stated it before seemed like a slight on them or a critisim. Folks know I'm sensative about Pfunk. Absolutly I understand the Parliment, Funkadelic differences and the reasons behind such differences. Always thought that it was a brillant way to get as much variety out in the movement with out over saturation. Interestingly their most successful song radio wise was put out under Funkadelic. The other thing is that IMO some of the Parliment records were far more experimental than the Funkadelic albums. Funkadelic was pretty much a straight ahead Acid Funk band where Parliment took a few more chances, especially vocally.

  

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scorpion
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111. "Parliament...."
In response to Reply # 109


  

          

more experimental?

How so? Expound....

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Warren Coolidge
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Fri Oct-05-01 08:09 AM

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112. "RE: Parliament...."
In response to Reply # 111


  

          

>more experimental?
>
>How so? Expound....

Sure. First to be honest, I put more weight on the fact that George wanted 2 deals with 2 record companies. That was a better financial decision for them. There is a difference in Parliment and Funkadelic, but in the big picture their are far more similarities.

Ex. The Rhenium album was the early Parliment record. Could just as well be a Funkadelic album. Moonshine Heather (all time favorites), Silent boatman, come in out of the rain are all far from comerical sounding and really demonstrate the variety within Parliment records. On up for the down stroke, you had The goose, presence of a brain (with a very latin feel to it), I can move you if you let me, etc. Really on that album there are only 2 straight "funk" songs on it. The rest is different melodies, vocal arrangements etc. On Chocolate City you had Let me Be, Ray Davis classic vocal performance. There is absolutly nothing traditional about that song.

Both Parliment and funkadelic had concept records with each one presenting another story within the legacy. Funkadelic was more guitar based. Parliment, especially when Bootsy, Maceo, Fred, and catfish came, were looked as a more traditional funk movement in the ways of James Brown, but the albums themselves were really just extentsions of each other.



  

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Blaise
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Fri Oct-05-01 07:04 AM

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98. "Great point"
In response to Reply # 92


  

          

>The increased importance of radio and the ability to obtain >advertising revenue through radio, social events, racial issues

This was an excellent point. But how do you answer the fact that some broke though without the need for radio (even though some may have gotten it anyway).

And do record companies always decide what we what to hear? Weren't there a few that left Gordy BECAUSE he imposed his will?
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dat nigga is sleeping on the couch with cheese doodle dust around his mouth. (c)grannie on what D'Angelo is doing

Because love is when you say " Goddamn that shit is so dope, I gotta be on it fuck it. I don't care if yall niggaz ain't got enough money in your budget, I'll do it on the strength". That's love!- Cormega

"I can make it rain when I'm mad enough,"... "I can spin the world off its axis and bring it right back two seconds later. I mean, fuck it. They're challenging me, and I'm gonna show the sons of bitches."- Jaguar Wright

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Fri Oct-05-01 07:07 AM

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100. "let me make clear"
In response to Reply # 98


  

          

i'm not even talking about overt "messages in the music" or "revolution," because most music in the 60s had neither. Curtis Mayfield was one of the few to do that and he couldn't even get those songs on radio.

i'm talking about a certain feeling... a certain heartbeat to the music that went dead in the 70s...

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nahymsa
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Fri Oct-05-01 09:32 AM

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135. "Could you be more descriptive"
In response to Reply # 100


          

Because what you're trying to categorize is so subjective.

C'mon how you gonna diss the ?uestion like that, of course he wasn't a Fat Boy. Now previous to Roots life, Quest did appear on television. He played Shirley on "What's Happenin?" - fxsnyc 6/19/01

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Fri Oct-05-01 09:35 AM

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138. "i know..."
In response to Reply # 135


  

          

i'm so distracted, and i've talked about this so many times that i just get weary of repeating myself.

anyway, which part exactly is not clear?

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nahymsa
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Fri Oct-05-01 12:09 PM

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167. "I missed what you said before"
In response to Reply # 138


          

I'm trying to get an idea of what you consider true soul music. The post I replied too talked in very subjective terms.

C'mon how you gonna diss the ?uestion like that, of course he wasn't a Fat Boy. Now previous to Roots life, Quest did appear on television. He played Shirley on "What's Happenin?" - fxsnyc 6/19/01

  

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Warren Coolidge
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Fri Oct-05-01 07:25 AM

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104. "RE: Great point"
In response to Reply # 98


  

          

>>The increased importance of radio and the ability to obtain >advertising revenue through radio, social events, racial issues
>
>This was an excellent point. But
>how do you answer the
>fact that some broke though
>without the need for radio
>(even though some may have
>gotten it anyway).
>
>And do record companies always decide
>what we what to hear?
>Weren't there a few that
>left Gordy BECAUSE he imposed
>his will?

If they left, they had to deal with the "will" of the person who ran their new home. The Stax dude, (can't think of his name right now) wanted a more raw, less refined, more secular based soul music. In contrast to Motown. That's business though. Give folks something different than your competitor, distinguish yourself and hope people choose you.

  

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scorpion
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Fri Oct-05-01 07:08 AM

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101. "Funk, Disco, & Soul"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

How do these relate to each other? What role did funk play in this generation of Eurocentrism and the unraveling of soul? Is disoc as bad as people say? Come widdit...

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Fri Oct-05-01 07:16 AM

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102. "well..."
In response to Reply # 101


  

          

funk sort of displaced soul as the primary dance music of black America in the 70s. they were almost the same thing at this point, anyway. groups like P-Funk helped distinguish funk as a separate genre, because before that, James Brown was considered "soul," really…

anyway, disco was just a really simplified and sanitized version of funk ("funk with deodorant on" © G. Clinton) with soul elements (soaring vocals, Philly-style strings). the big problem with disco was that it won over white audiences, and once those audiences had finished with it and decided it was dead, they basically threw funk and soul in the same trashcan. by the late 70s ALL black artists were regarded as "disco" and that was a stigma that I don't think black music has recovered from till this day.

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scorpion
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Fri Oct-05-01 07:26 AM

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105. "Only a few"
In response to Reply # 102


  

          

I think that contrary to popular belief, that there were only a FEW funk groups. All the rest were either poor imitations, JB's style soul bands, or simply "flirting" with funk. Thre were cats funkin' but only a few who were dedicated solely to funk, and I think that ended up hurting funk in the long run. People distotrted George's vision and saw funk as silly music with fucked up costumes, And soon P-Funk became a parody of itself. I think funk was the next logical step in soul but got trapped by commercialism aka Disco. But I think Disco is a much maligned music. Most of it was okay, but then you had the Euro Disco(Georgio Moroder, Silver Convention, etc) which I think ruined it.

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Fri Oct-05-01 07:33 AM

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106. "ha-ha"
In response to Reply # 105


  

          

well, i don't know if you've heard my theory about "funk" vs. "FONK"... i didn't want to get into it so as not to rile up Mr. Coolidge, but yes... i do think that P-Funk and most funk bands that followed them WERE a parody of funk.

and i mean that in the BEST way (for P-Funk anywy... the rest of them... i dunno...)

disco was good music... it's just that it was overexposed. i mean, old people were taking disco dancing lessons. Sesame Street was putting out Sesame Street Fever. there were novelty songs like Disco Duck. even Arthur Fiedler and the Boston Pops put out Saturday Night Fiedler... it was just too much.

btw... i though Giorgio Moroder was a genius!

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scorpion
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Fri Oct-05-01 07:41 AM

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108. "Giorgio Moroder?.."
In response to Reply # 106


  

          

...genius?

Please explain

P-Funk -parody of funk, dont get it...

Please explain

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Fri Oct-05-01 07:48 AM

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110. "RE: Giorgio Moroder?.."
In response to Reply # 108


  

          

i'll be back in a minute...

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Fri Oct-05-01 08:23 AM

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113. "RE: Giorgio Moroder?.."
In response to Reply # 108


  

          

yeah… like I was saying. I thought hi productions for Donna Summer were great. when I was a kid, I always loved "I feel love" more than anything! I recently saw an interview or something with David Bowie where he was talking about how brilliant he thought that particular record was… because it juxtaposed so many different elements that appeared apposite: soaring, black female vocals over macho, thudding, Teutonic, almost fascist rhythms… he said he thought "this is the future!"

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scorpion
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Fri Oct-05-01 08:32 AM

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114. "RE: Giorgio Moroder?.."
In response to Reply # 113


  

          

I liked her stuff when I was a kid, mainly because she made me feel all warm & stuff. But looking back, eh... Between him and Jacques Morali(Village People), I cant fuck wit it. We agree to disagree.

BTW, The one Donna Summer record I do enjoy is MacArthur Park only because of that Wu-Tang, then I found out it was origanlly a Donna Summer cut.

Back to Philly, How do you feel about MJ's performance while working with Gamble and Huff?

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Fri Oct-05-01 08:37 AM

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115. "oh come on, man..."
In response to Reply # 114


  

          

that's an insult, putting Moroder and Morali in the same sentence… shit, Morali wasn't even a musician!

anyway, you mean stuff like the Jacksons' Goin' Places? that was the first Jacksons lbum I loved and I think it's great, but somehow, in the scheme of things… it just does not seem memorable.

did G & H do the first Jacksons album, too? yeah… yeah, they did… with "that is the thing you need," "keep on dancing" and "enjoy yourself"… god, I fucking LOVED that album…

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scorpion
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Fri Oct-05-01 08:44 AM

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116. "M. Jackson 76-81"
In response to Reply # 115


  

          

I think that those Jacksons albums were incredible

that thing you need? never heard of that song, wasnt on the Philly albums...

People have said that the Philly Sound was too much for Mike, I disagree, I feel he tore that shit up!

Vocally, he couldnt be fucked with during these years...

I love those albums!(The Jacksons, Going Places(eh), Destiny, Off the Wall, Triumph, Jacksons Live)

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Fri Oct-05-01 08:48 AM

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117. "wait a minute..."
In response to Reply # 116


  

          

i think you're getting confused...

Off the Wall was not Philly. nor was Destiny. or Triumph.

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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scorpion
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118. "RE: wait a minute..."
In response to Reply # 117


  

          

I know, only Jacksons and Going Places, I'm saying those albums started MJ's artisitc peak.

*******
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www.windimoto.com

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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119. "oh."
In response to Reply # 118


  

          

okay

no doubt!

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scorpion
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120. "Where do you think...."
In response to Reply # 119


  

          

Gamble and Huff set then stage for disco and Champagne Soul...and when do you think soul just straight up died....

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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123. "RE: Where do you think...."
In response to Reply # 120


  

          

i don't know if it ever just up and died per se... i mean, i'm sure there were still people making what i would call soul records right into the 80s, but the conetxt for them... soul as a mass movement... i'm gonna say it was gone by 74, 75.

_____________________

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scorpion
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128. "Roy Ayers...."
In response to Reply # 123


  

          

We disagrreed on Roy Ayers and Neo-Soul....

You say Roy aint soul...

I agree, Roy is amalgam of all that was happening in black music in the '70's...

Tribe and the Roots(groups responsible for Neo-Soul) were HEAVILY influenced by Ayers.

the difference is that what we call soul or Neo-Soul today, musically, doesnt follow the blueprint of soul music, its too laid back, except for Mama's Gun...

They are picking up on the laid back Roy Ayers sound....

please tell me your thoughts on Erykah's magnum opus!

*******
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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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131. "Mama's Gun"
In response to Reply # 128


  

          

was pretty laidback, though...

it's not "true" soul, but i would have called it a soul album back in 1975... at that time, so many things were changing.

oh yeah... another factor we forgot to mention was the jazz fusion movement and its effect on R&B/soul. at that time, jaz groups like Weather Report were on the R&B chart and Isaac Hayes was topping the jazz charts. there was so much crossover that it was hard to keep track. in the middle of all that, we got soulful jazzers like Ayers, Rushen et al… I think Mama's Gun could fit in that category.

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scorpion
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Fri Oct-05-01 09:28 AM

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133. "SO much to say"
In response to Reply # 131


  

          

abt. fusion...

I'm gone, we'll build again Monday, if not during the weekend...

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BobbyBlue
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Sat Oct-06-01 12:10 AM

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174. "I'm interested to know"
In response to Reply # 131


          

why you think Mamas Gun is not 'true' soul, but would be if it was released in the mid seventies. It is very (perhaps too)faithful to a genre that is no longer the movement it once was, and for that reason might not sit well. But it is soul regardless and that power is what comes across when you hear it.

Soul as a movement might be finished, but it doesn't mean that all soul music is irrelevant or simply not real soul. You could even say the same thing about hip hop to a certain extent.

Maybe people are placing too high expectations on the new breed of 'soul' artists, or have gotten too caught up in 'canonising' a certain era of music that for sheer critical reputation has no hope of ever being matched.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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177. "i didn't say that."
In response to Reply # 174


  

          

read it again. i didn't say Mama's Gun would be "treu" soul if it was released in the 70s... i said it would have fit in with the work of soul/jazz fusion artists like Roy Ayers and Patrice Rushen.

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Wendell
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168. "RE: Roy Ayers...."
In response to Reply # 128


          

>Tribe and the Roots(groups responsible for
>Neo-Soul) were HEAVILY influenced by
>Ayers.

This is just not true. You are ingnoring the contributions of real Neo Soul performers like Jodeci, MJB etc. You are also ignoring the fact that neither the Roots of Tribe have EVER done a Neo Soul Album. You can't count Badu's first work as a Roots album.

Peace

Wendell

Peace

Wendell

  

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Blaise
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121. "How does House fit into the picture..."
In response to Reply # 118


  

          

or does it? I mean didn't disco birth house? To me a lot of deep house that is out today is really soulful. It more soulful than most of this garbabe out there. Thoughts?


*****************************************************************
dat nigga is sleeping on the couch with cheese doodle dust around his mouth. (c)grannie on what D'Angelo is doing

Because love is when you say " Goddamn that shit is so dope, I gotta be on it fuck it. I don't care if yall niggaz ain't got enough money in your budget, I'll do it on the strength". That's love!- Cormega

"I can make it rain when I'm mad enough,"... "I can spin the world off its axis and bring it right back two seconds later. I mean, fuck it. They're challenging me, and I'm gonna show the sons of bitches."- Jaguar Wright

"You know a nigga got gifts" - Quentin(The Best Man)

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Per

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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122. "RE: How does House fit into the picture..."
In response to Reply # 121


  

          

a lot of house is soulful, but so was a lot of disco, regardless of what the VH1 documentaries and rock critics would have you believe...

_____________________

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scorpion
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Fri Oct-05-01 09:07 AM

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124. "House...."
In response to Reply # 121


  

          

came along long after soul was dead....

House is an underground music still to this day, so its social impact is minimal.

Musically it is similar to disco, but I always thought hip-hop birthed house...

I could be wrong, I don't listen to much house music...

*******
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Blaise
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125. "HotThyng76 where you at..."
In response to Reply # 124


  

          

>Musically it is similar to disco, but I always thought hip-hop >birthed house...

I'm not sure but I think it came from disco. HotThyng? Latenitemix?

*****************************************************************
dat nigga is sleeping on the couch with cheese doodle dust around his mouth. (c)grannie on what D'Angelo is doing

Because love is when you say " Goddamn that shit is so dope, I gotta be on it fuck it. I don't care if yall niggaz ain't got enough money in your budget, I'll do it on the strength". That's love!- Cormega

"I can make it rain when I'm mad enough,"... "I can spin the world off its axis and bring it right back two seconds later. I mean, fuck it. They're challenging me, and I'm gonna show the sons of bitches."- Jaguar Wright

"You know a nigga got gifts" - Quentin(The Best Man)

Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Per

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Fri Oct-05-01 09:12 AM

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126. "discodj?"
In response to Reply # 125


  

          

hello?

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AnaStezia
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Fri Oct-05-01 09:15 AM

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127. "Pinch Hitting"
In response to Reply # 126


          

Hip-hop did not birth house. If anything, disco did. Much of house music is disco music, or heavily influenced by it.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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129. "i knew that."
In response to Reply # 127


  

          

i just wanted an "authority" to weigh in.

but... you'll do!

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AnaStezia
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Fri Oct-05-01 09:24 AM

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130. "Gee, thanks"
In response to Reply # 129


          

we all can't have a soapbox post from which to spout our detached academic theories on musical genres like you.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Fri Oct-05-01 09:26 AM

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132. "well, keep working at it, dear"
In response to Reply # 130


  

          

and one day you can be important just like me.

(I hasten to mention that I was invited, like any professor emeritus, to chair this symposium… I didn't build this soapbox for myself!)

_____________________

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AnaStezia
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Fri Oct-05-01 09:30 AM

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134. "nah. pomposity is not my aspiration"
In response to Reply # 132


          

I know you were invited. I just find it interesting that you have so much to say on an era you did not witness. It's as if you wrote a thesis on it.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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136. "honey..."
In response to Reply # 134


  

          

(don't you love how i condescend to you?)

you KNOW when i was born. how do you arrive at I didn't witness this era?

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AnaStezia
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Fri Oct-05-01 09:34 AM

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137. "RE: honey..."
In response to Reply # 136


          

Where were you living during this era, sweetie?

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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140. "RE: honey..."
In response to Reply # 137


  

          

>Where were you living during this
>era, sweetie?

why does that matter?

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AnaStezia
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Fri Oct-05-01 09:37 AM

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141. "RE: honey..."
In response to Reply # 140


          

it makes a difference in your frame of reference.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Fri Oct-05-01 09:39 AM

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142. "that's irrelevant."
In response to Reply # 141


  

          

i was there. that's all that matters.

and i have my texts.

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AnaStezia
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Fri Oct-05-01 09:43 AM

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144. "not at all"
In response to Reply # 142


          

one's frame of reference is never irrelevant. This is why you and Warren Coolidge have such blowouts. And surely you know that no textbook will ever tell a complete story, especially where an art form is concerned.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Fri Oct-05-01 09:45 AM

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145. "when i say texts..."
In response to Reply # 144


  

          

I mean the actual records… magazines… the artifacts.

and by the way… I DID live in the United States in the 1970s, so there!

and the fact that I lived outside of the States in the 80s, I think, makes me even more qualified… because I had distance, I had perspective.

_____________________

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AnaStezia
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Fri Oct-05-01 09:52 AM

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146. "RE: when i say texts..."
In response to Reply # 145


          

I think it makes you less qualified, because you were not here to experience it close up. Just like I wouldn't think someone who didn't grow up in chicago could really tell you about the beginnings of house music. They could give you dates and artists and song titles, but they couldn't tell you what it was like. The parties, the popularity of dj's, the hot mix shows on radio stations, the energy that surrounded the whole scene. I'm not even totally qualified to do it, becaue I was here, but I wasn't as deep into it as some of my peers were.

It makes a difference.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Fri Oct-05-01 09:56 AM

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147. "that's nonsense!"
In response to Reply # 146


  

          

that's like saying that you can't write about the Civil War, or the dynasties of the Pharaohs unless you were there.

I'm piecing together history here, sugar plum… it's called musicology.

_____________________

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AnaStezia
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Fri Oct-05-01 10:04 AM

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148. "RE: that's nonsense!"
In response to Reply # 147


          

No, it's not. A war can easily be documented because it is made up of a collection of tangible events.

Recorded music, while being tangible, is inextricably intertwined with human perception, which is intangible. You could study up on house music, and commit to memory the djs and the songs and the events that make up its history, but you would not have a complete picture.

When I skim through these posts where you rail about your 'evidence' that soul music died at such-and such a point, It strikes me as being book learning, backed with very little personal experience.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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149. "listen:"
In response to Reply # 148


  

          

i talk to people... i do research. how are people able to write convincingly about the Vienna music scene of the Baroque period? how do they write about Shakespeare's world?

and besides: i was THERE... irrespective of where i lived. i was a part of it.

_____________________

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AnaStezia
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Fri Oct-05-01 10:09 AM

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150. "How"
In response to Reply # 149


          

were you THERE on the other side of the world? Explain.

  

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equinox
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Fri Oct-05-01 10:12 AM

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151. "RE: that's nonsense!"
In response to Reply # 148


  

          

add to that that all you can really study is the commercial stuff, that is that music that actually made it up out of the ghetto. yes Ray Charles is cited as having introduced the world to Soul music but i'm sure that it was going on some years before the 'industry' had that epiphany, y'know?

-------------------------
::bounce'n off yo'radar::
Blaktroniks - Testing
Colonel Red - Soul Believer
Til Tuesday - Voices Carry
Prickly Pear/Jinesis - Ppl
Kashif - The Mood
Blk Bobby - The Grn Lite
Zo/Tigallo - Human

aGainst.The.gRain.radiO
fridays.10a-

  

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AnaStezia
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Fri Oct-05-01 10:14 AM

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152. "very good point. n/m"
In response to Reply # 151


          


  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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153. "who said"
In response to Reply # 151


  

          

you can only study commercial stuff?

the other stuff is there... besides, living outside of America, i heard more obscure shit than people who lived here because we didn't have the kind of rigid, systematic radio programming.

_____________________

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equinox
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Fri Oct-05-01 10:18 AM

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155. "commercial"
In response to Reply # 153


  

          

not in what is played on a radio but what is actually committed to recorded media.

-------------------------
::bounce'n off yo'radar::
Blaktroniks - Testing
Colonel Red - Soul Believer
Til Tuesday - Voices Carry
Prickly Pear/Jinesis - Ppl
Kashif - The Mood
Blk Bobby - The Grn Lite
Zo/Tigallo - Human

aGainst.The.gRain.radiO
fridays.10a-

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Fri Oct-05-01 10:38 AM

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159. "RE: commercial"
In response to Reply # 155


  

          

of course i know that.

but records is what we've been talking about all along, aint it?

i'm sure cats were sitting in their basement playing all kinds of stuff, people were playing at hole-in-the-wall bars, women singing soul in their kitchens and sewing circles, records made by church congregations and high school bands... i never even suggested that i was covering the history of every note of music ever produced by mankind... just charting social history through "commerically" released records and popular culture.

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alek
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Fri Oct-05-01 08:46 PM

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171. "for what it's worth..."
In response to Reply # 148


          

(and methodological questions aren't usually worth much)

>A war can
>easily be documented because it
>is made up of a
>collection of tangible events.

I think that's patently false. Are *you* going to tell me about the grit and despair of the Battle of the Bulge because you know when it occurred, (roughly) who was there, and (even more roughly) what the outcomes were?

No. Same with music.

But this is according to your argument.

I think you can write convincing history based on good primary sources, broad and deep historical/cultural background, and a certain degree of participant observation.

>Recorded music, while being tangible, is
>inextricably intertwined with human perception,
>which is intangible.

Just like every event/thing, including the pyramids.

(are you going to tell me their height in meters, or are you going to show me what it feels like to stand in the shadow of something it took 500 years to create?)

>When I skim through these posts
>where you rail about your
>'evidence' that soul music died
>at such-and such a point,
>It strikes me as being
>book learning, backed with very
>little personal experience.

That is somewhat more true. In fact, I'd be more inclined to accept AFKAP's ideas if they reflected personal feelings instead of "historical" facts.

As in, "I know soul music died in 1972 because I felt it happen, and this is what it felt like."


Alek
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What?! What?!

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LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
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Warren Coolidge
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154. "hey ana....."
In response to Reply # 144


  

          

....maybe I can fly away, fly away, ohhhhh.....

  

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AnaStezia
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156. "cute"
In response to Reply # 154


          

you kinda mangled the lyrics, but cute nontheless.

  

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Warren Coolidge
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Fri Oct-05-01 10:31 AM

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157. "I just flipped it...."
In response to Reply # 156


  

          

U and I could fly away, fly away" oh...

you see I didn't know if you wanted to fly away so I just spoke for myself...

you can go too if you want......

  

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AnaStezia
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158. "I'd love to"
In response to Reply # 157


          

Maybe if I could learn to love, the right way...

  

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Warren Coolidge
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Fri Oct-05-01 10:39 AM

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160. "I'll be over to pick ya up..."
In response to Reply # 158


  

          

I have to go pick up the Mothership from the pawn shop first....

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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161. "RE: I'll be over to pick ya up..."
In response to Reply # 160


  

          

>I have to go pick up
>the Mothership from the pawn
>shop first....


you mean from the junkyard...

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Warren Coolidge
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Fri Oct-05-01 10:47 AM

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163. "That's lower than"
In response to Reply # 161


  

          

Golota and Riddick Bowe....

that's ok though....

you know the mothership never dies my friend.....

I can hear the late great Glen Goins voice calling it down right now...

can you see it?

here it comes>>>>>

da da da da daaaa da da daa da da da da da da daaaaaa da da daa da da.....


when the mothership comes (when the mothership) when the mothership comes (when the mothership comes) I want to be ready..... when the mothership comes (when the mothership comes_ when the mothership comes (when the mothership comes) I want to be ready...

I want to ride..... when the mother ship comes.....I want to ride....when the mother ship comes....


  

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nahymsa
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Fri Oct-05-01 09:35 AM

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139. "true house"
In response to Reply # 127


          

Disco w/gospel.

C'mon how you gonna diss the ?uestion like that, of course he wasn't a Fat Boy. Now previous to Roots life, Quest did appear on television. He played Shirley on "What's Happenin?" - fxsnyc 6/19/01

  

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bluetiger
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165. "and you can check the likes of Roy Davis Jr. to get a feel for that too."
In response to Reply # 139


  

          

His joint in 98 called "Gabriel" and even his new stuff on Traxx from the Nile showcase a gospel/spiritual side.


In Rotation:
Tool - Lateralus
King Crimson - Discipline
NIN - The Fragile
Bob Marley - Rastaman Vibration
Jeff Buckley - Grace
Slum Village - Fantastic Vol II

↑ yours

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¥ not ¿?

™ & © & Æ

*Alter Your Ego*

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disco dj
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162. "You are wrong. be quiet."
In response to Reply # 124


  

          

a LOT of house music has social themes. "Promised land" by Joe Smooth, "Someday" by CeCe Rogers, etc. To say that House has minimal social impact is like saying that Jazz records don't sell. To the outsiders in certain musical subcultures (in this case cats like you that don't know shit about House Music...), it always seems that things you don't know don't affect your world.

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scorpion
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169. "Hold up...."
In response to Reply # 162


  

          

Why you gotta get hostile, Sean?...

Look, just because a cat made a socially concious record dont mean the genre as a whole had any significant social impact...

I said i dont listen to it alot but dont assume I dont know "shit"....

As far as my hip hop/house statement, I stand by that too.

Unless you can prove me wrong...

Unitl then listen to a few Larry Levan classics and chill...

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AnaStezia
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182. "RE: Hold up...."
In response to Reply # 169


          

Hip hop and house were born around the same time, and grew up in separate locations. There's no way that one 'birthed' the other, as you say. Your statement is wrong.

  

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scorpion
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183. "Like I said..."
In response to Reply # 182


  

          

show and prove

prove to me that house and hip-hop have seperate lineage...

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AnaStezia
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Mon Oct-08-01 05:10 AM

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184. "RE: Like I said..."
In response to Reply # 183


          

What don't you understand about logic? If two things started at rougly the same time, it is chronologically impossible for one to have 'begat' the other. House music grew out of the disco era in the early 80's. Hip hop developed around the same time, out of the disco era. One happened in Chicago, one in New York.

Thus, hip-hop did not 'birth' house, as you claim. It couldn't have. It's that simple.

  

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scorpion
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185. "RE: Like I said..."
In response to Reply # 184


  

          

So your're saying that house and hip-hop were evolving at the same time????
Surely you jest my love!
Hip-hop starts when Herc throws his first party using the Jamacian Two turntable and a mixer set-up to extend breaks of records so were talkin early 70's. You mean to tell me that at this time House was starting to form in Chicago? We didnt even have DISCO yet!

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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186. "but..."
In response to Reply # 185


  

          

hip-hop was not really "hip-hop" yet. it was a Jamaican guy spinning records at a block party. and most people outside of New York didn't even get to know about the phenomenon until the late 70s.

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scorpion
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187. "That's true.."
In response to Reply # 186


  

          

But that is the starting point of what we know as hip-hop, Ana is saying that Hip-Hop and House developed at the SAME time, and that's bullshit...

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Mon Oct-08-01 05:23 AM

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189. "when you put it that way"
In response to Reply # 187


  

          

you're right.

but you still haven't offerred sufficient evidence that house developed from hiphop.

for what it's worth, i've heard that theory many times myself, but nobody ever brings forth any solid proof. you mentioned Larry Levan, though, which is an interesting link...

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scorpion
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192. "I've got ...."
In response to Reply # 189


  

          

my reasons for saying that but I have not presented them yet because I want these "house experts" to offer evidence to the contrary first. None of them are, they're just saying "No, it didnt!!"

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AnaStezia
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Mon Oct-08-01 05:33 AM

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195. "RE: I've got ...."
In response to Reply # 192


          

then fucking put your 'evidence' on the table. My argument is this: house developed in what could almost be viewed as a vacuum. Hip-hop was not really acknolwedged in Chicago during the development period of house. New York was doing its thing, and we were doing ours. New York had Kool Herc, we had Frankie Knuckles. Hip-hop was not influential in Chicago until later.

  

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scorpion
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Mon Oct-08-01 05:38 AM

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197. "No..."
In response to Reply # 195


  

          

you grew the balls, now you must wear them. You house cats came out screamin' so naturally I assume you got some history to throw at me. Seems you dont have shit. I'm not about to waste characters for you to say,"Oh, okay", after you talked all that shit.

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AnaStezia
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Mon Oct-08-01 05:42 AM

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199. "Back up"
In response to Reply # 197


          

I wasn't the one 'screaming' on you. I never even claimed to be an expert. But as someone who was here to witness the era in question, I think you're mistaken. I just told you why. If you don't want present any theories to the contrary, you're the one who lacks balls.

  

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AnaStezia
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Mon Oct-08-01 05:25 AM

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190. "RE: That's true.."
In response to Reply # 187


          

It is not bullshit. You are talking about 2 separate things: a starting point and a devleopment period. I'm saying the development period of both genres was around the same time. Hip hop's development phase was during the early 80's. You're trying to say that hip-hop gave birth to house. THAT is bullshit.

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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191. "hip-hop"
In response to Reply # 190


  

          

WAS developing in the 70s. rapidly.

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scorpion
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Mon Oct-08-01 05:29 AM

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194. "Early 80's...."
In response to Reply # 190


  

          

COME ON!!! How old are you? Hip-hop developed in the early to mid 70's! Back up your argument, give me some titles, dates, DJ's, anything!

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AnaStezia
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196. "RE: Early 80's...."
In response to Reply # 194


          

What was the first major selling hip-hop record? When did it come out?

  

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scorpion
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198. "Please, spare me..."
In response to Reply # 196


  

          

Rapper's Delight, of course in 1979, but by that point hip-hop had already developed into wwhat it was going to be. The development stage took place in the clubs, and on homemade tapes.

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AnaStezia
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200. "RE: Please, spare me..."
In response to Reply # 198


          

So hip-hop was done growing when Rapper's Delight came out?

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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201. "RE: Please, spare me..."
In response to Reply # 200


  

          

hip-hop is STILL growing though. how can you designate a certain era as its "development" period?

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AnaStezia
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203. "Apparently"
In response to Reply # 201


          

according to your friend here, the development stage was before rapper's delight, in someone's basment.

  

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scorpion
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204. "Of course not..."
In response to Reply # 200


  

          

but the template for hip-hop was finalized.

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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206. "this is going nowhere..."
In response to Reply # 204


  

          

can somebody please say something or shut the funk up?

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scorpion
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208. "Before I..."
In response to Reply # 206


  

          

was so RUUUUDELY interrupted....(c) De La

So dig it, Marvin drops I Want You in '76. Me personally, I think it is work of genius, but do you feel that he fell into the Champagne bottle with this record?

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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209. "kinda"
In response to Reply # 208


  

          

it's an excellent record...to an extent, i've always preferred it to Let's Get It On. it's lush, but it's still muscular, and it's not sentimental and weak-hearted. so, musically, it's not champagne.

but in trms of subject matter... Marvin WAs getting a bit preoccupied with his genitals. i know a lot of people were disappointed at the time because this was the man who gave us What's Going On and now the most inventive thing he could come up with was the self-serving sounds of women moaning on his records.

i think the album was a lot more masturbatory than your average champagne soul record, though.

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scorpion
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Mon Oct-08-01 06:05 AM

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210. "In the 70's..."
In response to Reply # 209


  

          

there wasnt much to talk about, even Curtis sold out and did a disco album and a duet album, not to mention those soundtrax

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Mon Oct-08-01 06:11 AM

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211. "was there no stuff to talk about?"
In response to Reply # 210


  

          

i think there were plenty.

Curtis did disco, definitely... it was the new musical style. but if listen to Curtis's work during that period, he still had his "positive" themes, even if they were sounding a tad threadbare.

as for the soundtrack... i don't consider that selling out at all. his soundtrack work was excellent. not all of them were on par with Superfly, but i think that Claudine, Short Eyes, Sparkle and all them were pretty decent (and also conscious)>

but i must reiterate: when i speak of a dearth of "true" soul music (i'm gonna stop using that term) in the 70s, i'm not even talking about conscious lyrics. because there was plenty of soul in the 60s that was just about kissing and dancing... but it had a certain spirit, a certain heart that i just don't hear in a lot of 70s shit, even stuff as beautiful as "la la means i love you" or "betcha by golly wow"

ps. the Jackson 5 DID have that spirit.


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scorpion
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219. "Watergate..."
In response to Reply # 211


  

          

heroin, and a fucked up economy...I did not mean to imply that Curtis's soundtrax were selling out, but I'm saying he had to find something else because society had moved on. I disagree with you saying that the heart was gone in the '70s. It was slowing but it was still there. Despite this, the 70's were my favotie musical era. Shit, rockers were selling out, too. I feel that musicianship and songwriting had reached a peak in the 70's.
Not to mention we had FUSION!

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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220. "definitely..."
In response to Reply # 219


  

          

craftsmanship was at an all-time high in the 70s. some people felt that it was at the expense of "heart," though... which might be why everything exploded by the end of the decade with punk and hip-hop, where not being able to actually play an instrument was something to be proud of.

Curtis's sundtracks: i son't think he saw them as "moving on". to him, it was an important part of his work. and he remained true to himself throughout. like with Superfly... he felt the film glorified drug culture, so he secretly implanted messages in his soundtrack that subverted this perceived "negative" message. he still maintained all his values through those soundtracks.

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scorpion
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Mon Oct-08-01 06:51 AM

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223. "the Prince Theory..."
In response to Reply # 220


  

          

Prince symbolized the death of soul in more ways than one.

First off, he was an effeminate black man, taking his image from the blurred sexual boundaries of the seventies, his success set off a wave of androgyny in the black music community where it had been ignored when folks like Bowie and Iggy Pop did it, making the image of the strong black man unpopular. My boy, who had a deal back in '85 put it best, "It was cool to look like a fag back then..."

He lied about being black, and wore/wears a perm, making it seem like being Black was not a good thing to be, continuing the Afro to Euro transition of popular culture...

He was a record company's dream in a failing economy, instead of paying 13 guys you could pay one. Instead of having 3 guys in the group to play horns, He just played the horn lines on synths.
You get the producer, writer, singer, musician all in one.

He was the one who made 80's synths sound musical, basically doing what Stevie did for 70's synths, so now everyone is grabbing a synth instead of a guitar!

He also ran the popularity of drum machines up through the roof, rendering many studio drummers unemployed....

*******
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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Mon Oct-08-01 06:59 AM

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224. "mm-hm..."
In response to Reply # 223


  

          

i can live with all those pronouncements, though i would not place them all squarely upon Prince's shoulders.

i find the whole effeminate/androgynous thing interesting, though... i was looking for an opening to introduce certain questions about homosexuality and soul culture...

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scorpion
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Mon Oct-08-01 07:09 AM

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225. "Disco..."
In response to Reply # 224


  

          

put black homosexuality on front street, cuz before then it was strictly taboo. It had to do with once again, the social climate after the sexual revolution. People were reveling in the fact that they could live out their sexual fantasies and fuck whomever they pleased without consequence, or so they thought.
America is already sexually obsessed with the Black male, but a gay Black man, present all kinds of possibilities that were available before. So that's why until Tom Hanks in Philadelphia, not only was the lone black man in the cast a token, but he had to play the gay role, too, and vamp on those stereotypes. I dont blame Prince for these things, but I feel he symbolizes all of it. Nowadays, Prince struts around with his dick in his hand and talks of black this, black that...

*******
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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Mon Oct-08-01 07:31 AM

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228. "how about..."
In response to Reply # 225


  

          

the undercurrent of sexual ambiguity among soul men such as Marvin and Teddy P?

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scorpion
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Mon Oct-08-01 07:36 AM

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230. "Explain this...."
In response to Reply # 228


  

          

>the undercurrent of sexual ambiguity among
>soul men such as Marvin
>and Teddy P?


And the song that Puff and J.lo dance to is Galaxy by War, Anastezia, of all people, answered. I'm dling it now.....

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Mon Oct-08-01 07:45 AM

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232. "ah. forget it..."
In response to Reply # 230


  

          

it's not really that relevant to the discussion. right now i'm more interested in music and public image rather than what people do in the privacy of their bedrooms.

but anyway... Marvin was always kinda insecure about his sexuality. he wasn't gay, though... but he felt that his father, Rev. Marvin Gay, Sr., who was an effeminate man and notorious transvestite, might have somehow "tainted" him. Marvin fought it all his life and that was why he added the "e" to the end of his name, and why he wanted to excel in sports (after What's Going On, he contemplated quitting music and tried to join the Detroi Lions) and always be seen as a "man's man." (could that be the impetus for making music that glorifies your dick? insecurity?) eventually, Marvin kinda gave in, because he admitted to wearing women's undergarments and frilly nightgowns at home.

as for Teddy... well, you must know the story of how he got paralyzed when his car ran into a tree. well, he always said that he had a young woman (who was never identified) in the passenger seat, but word on the street said it was a transvestite. recently, i've been hearing that the transvestite story was a cover-up for the fact that Teddy was actually banging Dr. J's wife. but i don't know... Teddy himself seems to have admitted that he had a dude in the car, even though he copped the Eddie Murphy defense: he didn't know the dude, met him at a party and was giving him a ride.

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scorpion
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Mon Oct-08-01 07:54 AM

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234. "RE: ah. forget it..."
In response to Reply # 232


  

          

I knew about all dat but they never let it into their music, so had we not beeen up on that info, we would have never known. Unlike Prince who made an issue out of it in his songs, and squealed and moaned like a woman on record...

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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235. "yeah..."
In response to Reply # 234


  

          

that's what i meant. it's really not relevant. unless you want to expand my question about the role of insecurity in the oversexed nature of a lot of this music. and that would be stretching our little music=sociology lesson into the realm of psychology, where i don't think i want to go...

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equinox
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Mon Oct-08-01 08:53 AM

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242. "Where did you get this info from"
In response to Reply # 232


  

          

this info from? (reproduced for if the title chops off)

-------------------------
::bounce'n off yo'radar::
Blaktroniks - Testing
Colonel Red - Soul Believer
Til Tuesday - Voices Carry
Prickly Pear/Jinesis - Ppl
Kashif - The Mood
Blk Bobby - The Grn Lite
Zo/Tigallo - Human

aGainst.The.gRain.radiO
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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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243. "which info?"
In response to Reply # 242


  

          

the Dynamic Superiors stuff?

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equinox
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244. "Marvin vs. Daddy"
In response to Reply # 243


  

          

Gaye

-------------------------
::bounce'n off yo'radar::
Blaktroniks - Testing
Colonel Red - Soul Believer
Til Tuesday - Voices Carry
Prickly Pear/Jinesis - Ppl
Kashif - The Mood
Blk Bobby - The Grn Lite
Zo/Tigallo - Human

aGainst.The.gRain.radiO
fridays.10a-

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Mon Oct-08-01 09:04 AM

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245. "oh that."
In response to Reply # 244


  

          

that was quite well-known! it was what lead to Marvin's eventual murder.

anyway, you can read about it at length in David Ritz's "Divided Soul."

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Warren Coolidge
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Mon Oct-08-01 07:33 AM

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229. "RE: Disco..."
In response to Reply # 225


  

          

>put black homosexuality on front street,
>cuz before then it was
>strictly taboo.

Little Richard was out way before disco.



It had to
>do with once again, the
>social climate after the sexual
>revolution. People were reveling in
>the fact that they could
>live out their sexual fantasies
>and fuck whomever they pleased
>without consequence, or so they
>thought.

The concept of the "emasculated black male" as a popular culture icon is the result of the desire to keep young white females from admiring "masculine" black men. It just would be so contrary to the survival of the european american culture to have Black men be the model of sexuality. That is why, even today, you have some black men portrayed as feminine or as drasticly lacking intelligence. It is not necessarily a conscious action, but it's a part of the survival mechanism of the european american (see Dr. Francis Cress Wellsing).



>America is already sexually obsessed with
>the Black male, but a
>gay Black man, present all
>kinds of possibilities that were
>available before. So that's why
>until Tom Hanks in Philadelphia,
>not only was the lone
>black man in the cast
>a token, but he had
>to play the gay role,
>too, and vamp on those
>stereotypes. I dont blame Prince
>for these things, but I
>feel he symbolizes all of
>it. Nowadays, Prince struts around
>with his dick in his
>hand and talks of black
>this, black that...

Another thing. Acting feminine and homosexuality are two entirely different things. The feminine Black male in pop music, prince, mike, etc. has nothing to do with homosexuality. If anything Prince played on the hetorsexual concept and pretty much became like the feminine pimp who loved God and women. Since this society is based upon european values, you will often find things with a tinge of homosexuality. The fact is, is that there has NEVER been an openly gay Black male artist, who has stayed on top in the music business. When there is one, then we can judge the reactions to that. Ooops, you know what, I'm wrong, Sylvester.....He was dope at what he did. Wasn't a huge star though. He dressed as a woman, so my point still kind of stands. If Luther comes out all the way, that would be different.


  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Mon Oct-08-01 07:38 AM

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231. "RE: Disco..."
In response to Reply # 229


  

          

>Little Richard was out way before
>disco.

Richard wore makeup and was a homosexual, but hey wasn't really... ah, "gay," y'know?

>>hand and talks of black
>>this, black that...
>
>Another thing. Acting feminine and
>homosexuality are two entirely different
>things. The feminine Black
>male in pop music, prince,
>mike, etc. has nothing
>to do with homosexuality. If
>anything Prince played on the
>hetorsexual concept and pretty much
>became like the feminine pimp
>who loved God and women.

note the femininity of the prevalent pimp culture, as well... see Snoop & the Eastsidaz (and a lot of other West Coast "gangsta" rappers at that) with their girly perms.

>The fact is, is that
>there has NEVER been an
>openly gay Black male artist,
>who has stayed on top
>in the music business.

sure about that, Warren? what about...

>Ooops, you
>know what, I'm wrong, Sylvester.....He
>was dope at what he
>did.

okay, then!

_____________________

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scorpion
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Mon Oct-08-01 07:50 AM

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233. "I'm not saying"
In response to Reply # 231


  

          

..that Prince was a homosexual or promoted homosexuality, but he definitely played with the male/female thing for shock value, to get girls, whatever...

Feminine Pimps-I've heard this about this concept before, And I've also heard about the feminine gangstas in Cali. I dont know where that comes from but I dont think Prince was drawing from that. I think Michael Jackson being on top in that era is a coincidence, even though mike wore lots of makeup, that is nothing new in Hollywood, Mike never tried to prsent himself as feminine, in fact he was always/and still is trying to portray himself as hard in some kind of way(Beat It, Bad, Smooth Criminal, Rock My World)

*******
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equinox
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236. "RE: Disco..."
In response to Reply # 229


  

          

also dismisses Sylvester who was on the scene before during and after the supposed transition

-------------------------
::bounce'n off yo'radar::
Blaktroniks - Testing
Colonel Red - Soul Believer
Til Tuesday - Voices Carry
Prickly Pear/Jinesis - Ppl
Kashif - The Mood
Blk Bobby - The Grn Lite
Zo/Tigallo - Human

aGainst.The.gRain.radiO
fridays.10a-

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Mon Oct-08-01 08:05 AM

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237. "huh?"
In response to Reply # 236


  

          

>also dismisses Sylvester who was on
>the scene before during and
>after the supposed transition

clarify, please?

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equinox
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Mon Oct-08-01 08:23 AM

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238. "RE: huh?"
In response to Reply # 237


  

          

well it was another argument against the notion that prince introduced sexuality issues into pop culture. Sylvester was there before him in all his flaming glory. he was cutting records before the disco era, during it and after it.

so Prince may have carried the torch for what was begun before he showed up on the scene but he wasnt the originator.

-------------------------
::bounce'n off yo'radar::
Blaktroniks - Testing
Colonel Red - Soul Believer
Til Tuesday - Voices Carry
Prickly Pear/Jinesis - Ppl
Kashif - The Mood
Blk Bobby - The Grn Lite
Zo/Tigallo - Human

aGainst.The.gRain.radiO
fridays.10a-

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Mon Oct-08-01 08:27 AM

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239. "definitely..."
In response to Reply # 238


  

          

there were other folks even before Sylvester... the lead singer of the Dynamic Superiors (can't remember his name) was a flamboyant tranny... and a lot of them "soul singers" in the 70s looked like girls.

_____________________

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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246. "Tony Washington"
In response to Reply # 239


  

          

that was the name of the flamboyant lead singer of the Dynamic Superiors

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equinox
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Mon Oct-08-01 06:11 AM

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212. "the times"
In response to Reply # 209


  

          

you have to take into consideration the mood of society particularly american society at the time. music does continue to speak to what is going on in the society, no? that was the era of 'ME', right?. and sex with wild abandon. and living for the moment, no?

so if people are obssessed with themselves, riding its on dick, figuratively and literally, doesnt it follow that the music will highlight the spririt of the times?

which also can mean that soul music was not dead, it just evolved into other forms and concerned itself with a broader set of issues. i mean we did live lives outside of civil rights (which you seem to claim is the end all be all of soul music)

-------------------------
::bounce'n off yo'radar::
Blaktroniks - Testing
Colonel Red - Soul Believer
Til Tuesday - Voices Carry
Prickly Pear/Jinesis - Ppl
Kashif - The Mood
Blk Bobby - The Grn Lite
Zo/Tigallo - Human

aGainst.The.gRain.radiO
fridays.10a-

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Mon Oct-08-01 06:15 AM

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214. "waitaminnit!"
In response to Reply # 212


  

          


>which also can mean that soul
>music was not dead, it
>just evolved into other forms
>and concerned itself with a
>broader set of issues. i
>mean we did live lives
>outside of civil rights (which
>you seem to claim is
>the end all be all
>of soul music)


DID i claim that? or are your comprehensive reading skills just a little dull?

YOU be the judge.

_____________________

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equinox
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Mon Oct-08-01 06:20 AM

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216. "RE: waitaminnit!"
In response to Reply # 214


  

          

notice i said 'seems'

so you answer your own question. you frontin' like your last name is webster and you got the lock on the definition of soul music.

-------------------------
::bounce'n off yo'radar::
Blaktroniks - Testing
Colonel Red - Soul Believer
Til Tuesday - Voices Carry
Prickly Pear/Jinesis - Ppl
Kashif - The Mood
Blk Bobby - The Grn Lite
Zo/Tigallo - Human

aGainst.The.gRain.radiO
fridays.10a-

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Mon Oct-08-01 06:24 AM

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217. "FYI"
In response to Reply # 216


  

          

i never said that. this is a dialogue. i'm learning just by talking to these people. i never claimed to have all the answers.

i never said that the civil rights movement was the end-all and be-all of soul music. you may even notice that in the last post i made before "waitaminnit!" (i can't remember the #) i emphasized that "true" soul (damn i said it again!) to me was NOT about "conscious" lyrics at all, but about a certain ebullience of spirit which i noted the Jackson 5 had in spades. and they were FAR froma "conscious" group.

_____________________

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Mon Oct-08-01 06:25 AM

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218. "shee-it"
In response to Reply # 217


  

          

it was even in the thread you replied to that i said that! did you even bother to read it?

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equinox
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Mon Oct-08-01 06:31 AM

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221. "and i said"
In response to Reply # 217


  

          

it 'seems'.

its a big difference in saying that you did and it 'seems' you did something. in fact i offered it as a point for clarification.

yeah, this is a discussion that we all can use to bounce info off of each other and grow in the process. sometimes from reading what you write (and i've been doing that for awhile now), you come off with a supremacy complex with your information and like a know-it-all. so if you want to dialogue, thats cool, but dont resort to the insults because that's the most bullshit weapon in debate that is available for saying that you really dont what the fuck it is you talking about.

beyond that, carry on.

-------------------------
::bounce'n off yo'radar::
Blaktroniks - Testing
Colonel Red - Soul Believer
Til Tuesday - Voices Carry
Prickly Pear/Jinesis - Ppl
Kashif - The Mood
Blk Bobby - The Grn Lite
Zo/Tigallo - Human

aGainst.The.gRain.radiO
fridays.10a-

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Mon Oct-08-01 06:35 AM

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222. "okay then..."
In response to Reply # 221


  

          

please explain to me how you arrived at "it seems" i'm saying something when in fact i EXPLICITLY said the opposite in the very post you responded to?

just clarify that for me one time, god...

"supremacy complex"? wtf?

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AnaStezia
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Mon Oct-08-01 05:27 AM

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193. "Also"
In response to Reply # 187


          

Bear in mind that I said 'roughly' the same time. I will acknowledge that hip hop may have had an earlier start, but it did not give birth to house.

  

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equinox
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Mon Oct-08-01 05:45 AM

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202. "danger will robinson!"
In response to Reply # 193


  

          

they dont even sound the same. i dont understand the logic in the argument unless you're using that jungle brothers hiphouse joint that catapulted house onto the world dais. particularly folk into hip hop. but even then you have to know that it was being born years before the world outside of chi-ny-nj caught up.

i would like the house heads to talk about the chicago new jersey new york connections in the development of house. commercial disco died a bastardized death (everybody and her mama did a disco album...check it dolly parton did a disco album you know the hood was outta disco if dolly was doing disco) but Black folk wasnt through with it yet. so we flipped it inside out and got house.

-------------------------
::bounce'n off yo'radar::
Blaktroniks - Testing
Colonel Red - Soul Believer
Til Tuesday - Voices Carry
Prickly Pear/Jinesis - Ppl
Kashif - The Mood
Blk Bobby - The Grn Lite
Zo/Tigallo - Human

aGainst.The.gRain.radiO
fridays.10a-

  

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AnaStezia
Charter member
45338 posts
Mon Oct-08-01 05:48 AM

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205. "RE: danger will robinson!"
In response to Reply # 202


          

>they dont even sound the same.
> i dont understand the
>logic in the argument unless
>you're using that jungle brothers
>hiphouse joint that catapulted house
>onto the world dais.

That's exactly what I think he's stuck on. And that was waaaaaaaaayyyyy after house got started.

  

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scorpion
Charter member
29592 posts
Mon Oct-08-01 05:52 AM

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207. "RE: danger will robinson!"
In response to Reply # 205


  

          

>>they dont even sound the same.
>> i dont understand the
>>logic in the argument unless
>>you're using that jungle brothers
>>hiphouse joint that catapulted house
>>onto the world dais.
>
>That's exactly what I think he's
>stuck on. And that was
>waaaaaaaaayyyyy after house got started.

Nope! You were the first one to reply after I said that, so Ms. Gorilla Nuts, e-mail a friend or some'n for some facts, cuz until you do I'm stickin' to my story! I'm challenging you to change my opinion!
>



*******
allwedoiswindimoto.tumblr.com
www.windimoto.com

  

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AnaStezia
Charter member
45338 posts
Mon Oct-08-01 06:17 AM

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215. "RE: danger will robinson!"
In response to Reply # 207


          

Hey, that makes sbsolutely no difference to me. You can continue to be wrong and pretend to have the magic bullet theory all you want. I already stated my opinion. The world will go on just fine without yours. It's clear what yours is based on anyway.

As you were.

  

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AnaStezia
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45338 posts
Mon Oct-08-01 05:22 AM

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188. "RE: but..."
In response to Reply # 186


          

Thank you.

  

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HotThyng76
Charter member
51232 posts
Fri Oct-05-01 10:50 AM

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164. "Oh..about house music."
In response to Reply # 124


  

          

>House is an underground music still
>to this day, so its
>social impact is minimal.

Ha. House isn't quite underground, but it's not totally mainstream either. It's important enough to the music industry that many major pop/R&B/country artists have house remixes of their songs to get some crossover appeal.

>Musically it is similar to disco,
>but I always thought hip-hop
>birthed house...

Hip-hop and house were born around the same time, and both share roots in disco. House took much of the disco aesthetic to heart, while hip-hop only borrowed disco's structure.




____________________

"Mother, mother, everybody thinks we're wrong/But who are they to judge us, simply cuz our hair is long?"

_______________________

  

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bluetiger
Charter member
36728 posts
Fri Oct-05-01 11:47 AM

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166. "ARCHIVE THIS POST."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Thanks for reading. I Love You.

"Color - There are a lot of things that we consider reality but are merely our perceptions of the outside world. Color is the most obvious example. Color doesn't really exist in nature, the colors we see are just our eyes' and mind's way of defining the refracted light from certain objects. How do we even know that what we define as "blue" looks the same to me as it does to you???? Maybe it looks completely different." - JMello

"I'm sick of class struggle. God complexes. Genetic politics. Apathy. Ego. And RACE more than anything else.
The very concept of race is just becoming more and more INSANE to me now." - DarkStar

In Rotation:
Tool - Lateralus
King Crimson - Discipline
NIN - The Fragile
Bob Marley - Rastaman Vibration
Jeff Buckley - Grace
Slum Village - Fantastic Vol II

↑ yours

"you and whose army?" - thom yorke

¥ not ¿?

™ & © & Æ

*Alter Your Ego*

¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤

don't be fkn evil.

  

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alek
Charter member
3625 posts
Fri Oct-05-01 08:48 PM

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172. "..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

>This is for AFKAP to continue
>his theories on soul...

...yeah, thank God you prompted him -- I really don't think he writes about it enough.

Alek

______________________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What?! What?!

____________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What? What?

  

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taygravy
Charter member
6656 posts
Mon Oct-08-01 07:12 AM

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226. "Dearest Moderator"
In response to Reply # 172


          

Please archive. A ton of jewels being dropped up in here.

"What about his momma? What about his father Josephine?"
-Vincent Mason, pondering the wretched state of Johnny's grief-stricken parents

AND NOW.....9th Wondah presents "Mr. Dream Merchant"-Vol. 2
(starring the Justice League of America, NC's dopest collective of emcees)

ALBUM DROPPING DEC. 2001

www.theforeignexchangemusic.com

  

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equinox
Charter member
3150 posts
Mon Oct-08-01 06:13 AM

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213. "start another thread"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

this shit is gonna crash
from post count

-------------------------
::bounce'n off yo'radar::
Blaktroniks - Testing
Colonel Red - Soul Believer
Til Tuesday - Voices Carry
Prickly Pear/Jinesis - Ppl
Kashif - The Mood
Blk Bobby - The Grn Lite
Zo/Tigallo - Human

aGainst.The.gRain.radiO
fridays.10a-

  

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Brandard
Charter member
11908 posts
Mon Oct-08-01 08:40 AM

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240. "hell no"
In response to Reply # 213


  

          

this thread will not only be the largest in the archives, but also the most informative

let's go 400!

Giving You True Lesson Moderation Since'03
******

Want something archived? thats what an inbox is for

  

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equinox
Charter member
3150 posts
Mon Oct-08-01 08:44 AM

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241. "RE: hell no"
In response to Reply # 240


  

          

long as it doesnt topple the lesson

-------------------------
::bounce'n off yo'radar::
Blaktroniks - Testing
Colonel Red - Soul Believer
Til Tuesday - Voices Carry
Prickly Pear/Jinesis - Ppl
Kashif - The Mood
Blk Bobby - The Grn Lite
Zo/Tigallo - Human

aGainst.The.gRain.radiO
fridays.10a-

  

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Brandard
Charter member
11908 posts
Thu Oct-11-01 04:26 AM

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247. "ARCHIVE"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

*****Rename Brandard Contest 2001******

well its time for me to get a new name, since this one has become false. I used to go to Brandeis, but now i got to Rutgers. oops.

so hit my inbox with a suggestion and i'll put it in my sig so people can vote on it, then on Veteran's Day i will unveil the new name.

suggestions so far:
1)gradual
2)keep Brandard dumbass its been your name for over a year
3)....

Giving You True Lesson Moderation Since'03
******

Want something archived? thats what an inbox is for

  

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