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Subject: "Civil War vs. Infinite Crisis" This topic is locked.
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Melanism
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Thu Feb-22-07 08:42 AM

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"Poll question: Civil War vs. Infinite Crisis"


          

They both had their great moments (Spidey's unmasking, the return of the Crisis of Infinite Earths survivors), their highly questionable moments (Clor? Superboy Prime moving planets and reality-altering punches), their questionable editorial decisions (delays, unfinished artwork) and both were 7 issues.

So which was the better of the two?

Poll result (27 votes)
Civil War (12 votes)Vote
Infinite Crisis (15 votes)Vote

  

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
i ain't read CW but it's GOT to be better than that craptacular IC
Feb 22nd 2007
1
nooooooooooooooooooo
Feb 23rd 2007
51
LOL
Feb 23rd 2007
56
      i didnt even follow annihilation
Feb 23rd 2007
58
ill show u CW in thirty seconds
Feb 23rd 2007
69
      Quiet as kept, that was kinda accurate... n/m
Feb 23rd 2007
70
      Yep. That's right on the money.
Feb 23rd 2007
71
      yeah, that's funny as hell
Feb 23rd 2007
72
      **BOSTON BRAND**
Feb 23rd 2007
73
      It's funny 'cause it's true, AF. He just saved you $20 on a trade.
Feb 23rd 2007
74
           damn... the ending was really like that?
Feb 23rd 2007
76
                yup....same thing Thing said
Feb 24th 2007
79
      His IC one was shorter and possibly better.
Feb 23rd 2007
77
           not better
Mar 04th 2007
80
civil war all the way
Feb 22nd 2007
2
C-Dubb
Feb 22nd 2007
3
Superboy's death>>>>>>>>>THOR-3PO getting hit by a hammer
Feb 22nd 2007
4
WRONG
Feb 22nd 2007
8
      and Superboy's death looks even more like some cynical shit
Feb 22nd 2007
9
      that too
Feb 22nd 2007
10
      Like DC I "respectfully disagree" with your ruling!
Feb 22nd 2007
11
           For me there wasn't enough build-up for there to have been an anti-clima...
Feb 22nd 2007
15
                fans' expectations are the only thing ruining CW for them.
Feb 23rd 2007
64
Civil War, but CW vs. 52 would be a better battle...
Feb 22nd 2007
5
No it wouldn't. Only if you want to have a reason to vote for DC.
Feb 22nd 2007
6
52 would win that one... but is it really a fair match up?
Feb 22nd 2007
7
      Yeah, 52 has a distinct advantage.
Feb 22nd 2007
12
I guess I'll go with CW
Feb 22nd 2007
13
civil war, EASY
Feb 22nd 2007
14
Offtopic- What didn't you like about Identity Crisis
Feb 22nd 2007
17
      it seemed really forced and really nonsensical and
Feb 22nd 2007
23
      I did the same, from the library. It was really good.
Feb 23rd 2007
65
SUB POST: Where does Annihilation fit in?
Feb 22nd 2007
16
The main mini-series was better than CW...
Feb 22nd 2007
18
It was better overall but it had less pressure
Feb 22nd 2007
19
      very true. But on the flipside....
Feb 22nd 2007
38
IC, only because it gave us 52!
Feb 22nd 2007
20
infinite crises by a mile
Feb 22nd 2007
21
^^^A gentleman and a scholar n/m
Feb 22nd 2007
22
I am going to log in under all my aliases to put IC in the lead
Feb 22nd 2007
24
better come up with some more aliases, buddy
Feb 22nd 2007
37
Spider-Man's unmasking >>>>>>>>>>>> anything that happened in IC
Feb 22nd 2007
25
true...but IC had some nice oh shit! moments itself
Feb 22nd 2007
31
The very end of issue #7 was very well done
Feb 22nd 2007
32
yeah, that moment was a lil too over the top
Feb 22nd 2007
41
the joker scene was dope n/m
Feb 22nd 2007
42
this line alone beats the whole of CW
Feb 23rd 2007
52
blue beetle's intelligence and death was better
Feb 22nd 2007
40
      ^^I AGREE! And the arc with Supes nearly murking Bats was classic!
Feb 23rd 2007
46
I'm going to vote Civil War based on focus
Feb 22nd 2007
26
a fair assessment
Feb 22nd 2007
29
what i didn't like about civil war
Feb 22nd 2007
27
I'm more curious to know what you liked about Infinite Crisis
Feb 22nd 2007
28
RE: I'm more curious to know what you liked about Infinite Crisis
Feb 22nd 2007
33
Whoa
Feb 22nd 2007
34
      but only wonder woman was out of character
Feb 22nd 2007
35
           Shall I go on
Feb 22nd 2007
36
                i never said it was perfect
Feb 22nd 2007
39
                Only one of these didn't work:
Feb 23rd 2007
44
                     and it's not like batman hasn't used a gun before
Feb 23rd 2007
45
crisis had..
Feb 23rd 2007
53
      Inifinite Crisis did not change the DCU in any significant way
Feb 23rd 2007
54
           well lets see
Feb 23rd 2007
55
                Hm. I was under the impression that 52 was a bit of an afterthought
Feb 23rd 2007
57
                     OYL was announced arround issue 3
Feb 23rd 2007
59
Mac Gargan. Yup, former Scorpion.
Feb 23rd 2007
68
Civil War... Both should of been much better...
Feb 22nd 2007
30
Honestly
Feb 22nd 2007
43
man, WHAT is the qoute in your sig referring to?
Feb 23rd 2007
47
      RE: man, WHAT is the qoute in your sig referring to?
Feb 23rd 2007
75
Mongo's answer (edited).
Feb 23rd 2007
48
I was just talking about the miniseries not the aftermath
Feb 23rd 2007
49
Then ok. Throw it where you wanna.
Feb 23rd 2007
50
Damn, Mongo...nice breakdown.
Feb 23rd 2007
60
      RE: Damn, Mongo...nice breakdown.
Feb 23rd 2007
61
      On Thor:
Feb 23rd 2007
62
           I reiterate
Feb 23rd 2007
63
                that's why I referred to it as "the load".
Feb 23rd 2007
66
                     ah...yes.
Feb 23rd 2007
67
I'm just guessing, since I didn't read IC, but CW.
Feb 24th 2007
78
Civil war started off strong, then lost focus. But Im still a Marvel Gir...
Mar 04th 2007
81

AFKAP_of_Darkness
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1. "i ain't read CW but it's GOT to be better than that craptacular IC"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Stryfe
Member since Jun 16th 2002
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Fri Feb-23-07 09:14 AM

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51. "nooooooooooooooooooo"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

dont think that...dont ever subject yourself to the complete nonsense that was civil war...where the final conclusion was Cap rehashing what Thing said....4 issues earlier...only to know have everyone realise...omg..the god that is Cap has spoken...now we see the folly of our ways....


trust me..superboy punching reality is still better then this nonsense

patience is a virtue,but heaven awaits those who prey

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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Fri Feb-23-07 10:09 AM

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56. "LOL"
In response to Reply # 51


  

          

>dont think that...dont ever subject yourself to the complete
>nonsense that was civil war...where the final conclusion was
>Cap rehashing what Thing said....4 issues earlier...only to
>know have everyone realise...omg..the god that is Cap has
>spoken...now we see the folly of our ways....

maybe i'll just wait for Annihilation

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Stryfe
Member since Jun 16th 2002
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Fri Feb-23-07 10:19 AM

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58. "i didnt even follow annihilation"
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

but every single issue i glanced through was better then the whole CW mini combined

patience is a virtue,but heaven awaits those who prey

  

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Stryfe
Member since Jun 16th 2002
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Fri Feb-23-07 05:59 PM

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69. "ill show u CW in thirty seconds"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

http://the-isb.blogspot.com/2007/02/civil-war-in-30-seconds.html

patience is a virtue,but heaven awaits those who prey

  

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Marbles
Member since Oct 19th 2004
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Fri Feb-23-07 06:23 PM

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70. "Quiet as kept, that was kinda accurate... n/m"
In response to Reply # 69


  

          

Peace,

*** MARBLES ***

  

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mrhood75
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Fri Feb-23-07 07:17 PM

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71. "Yep. That's right on the money."
In response to Reply # 69


  

          

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
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Fri Feb-23-07 07:31 PM

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72. "yeah, that's funny as hell"
In response to Reply # 69


          

  

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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73. "**BOSTON BRAND**"
In response to Reply # 69


  

          

that's hilarious

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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mrhood75
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74. "It's funny 'cause it's true, AF. He just saved you $20 on a trade."
In response to Reply # 73


  

          

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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76. "damn... the ending was really like that?"
In response to Reply # 74


  

          

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

  

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Stryfe
Member since Jun 16th 2002
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Sat Feb-24-07 09:42 AM

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79. "yup....same thing Thing said"
In response to Reply # 76


  

          

over in FF

patience is a virtue,but heaven awaits those who prey

  

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lonesome_d
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77. "His IC one was shorter and possibly better."
In response to Reply # 69


          

  

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Calico
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80. "not better"
In response to Reply # 77


  

          

..but still really good

"yes, sometimes my rhymes are sexist, but you lovely bitches and hos should know i'm tryin to correct it"- hiphopopotamus

  

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Toothpick
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Thu Feb-22-07 09:47 AM

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2. "civil war all the way"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

for all it's flaws, i can still recommend it to other people for a fun read. i can't do the same for IC.

----------------------------------------------

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bamf.

  

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buckshot defunct
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3. "C-Dubb"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Better art, better story, better tie-ins

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Gemini_Two_One
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4. "Superboy's death>>>>>>>>>THOR-3PO getting hit by a hammer"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I swear that whole story could have been told in one double issue. The payoff was marginal at best. When I was a kid I read mostly Marvel, for the exception of Batman. I hoped Civil War might re-spark my interest in Marvel...needless to say it did not. Issue 7 was a damn letdown! For a comic that was late the story and ending seemed rushed. Oh and Captain America with from hero to quitter because a fireman said look at the destruction you caused? Like that is the first time a city has been destroyed by him and other heros! I swear I want my money back for Civil War. The only book I really enjoyed was the Civil War: Front Line


!sig!
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"If I was to follow you home would you keep me
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buckshot defunct
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8. "WRONG"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

Superboy's death was a half assed editorial sacrificial lamb to spare Nightwing's ass.

Clor getting bodied with his own hammer was a work of art.

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AFKAP_of_Darkness
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9. "and Superboy's death looks even more like some cynical shit"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

when you factor in this bullshit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superboy#Legal_status

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buckshot defunct
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10. "that too"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          


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@kennykeil

  

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Gemini_Two_One
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11. "Like DC I "respectfully disagree" with your ruling!"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

The whole Thor thing was anti-climatic for me. That was it...he gets bodied by hit own hammer?


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"If I was to follow you home would you keep me
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Would I fuck you till your sleepy?"

  

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buckshot defunct
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15. "For me there wasn't enough build-up for there to have been an anti-clima..."
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

At least where Robo-Thor is concerned.

He was an interesting plot twist, beyond that I didn't have any expectations for the "character" <---- using the term really loosely here.

Civil War and Infinite Crisis both set out to make lots of money and re-shape their respective universes... So that those universes might in turn make lots of money. Infinite Crisis had a larger scope perhaps, but unfortunately there wasn't any story there. It was just a big, clumsy continuity hammer. At least with Civil War things were a bit more story driven. Sure there were plot holes, and some questionable characterizations, and some straight up dumb shit... but there was always a story. Things changed because of the motivations and actions of the characters involved. In Infinite Crisis things changed because... Superboy Prime punched time.

Each event fit its respective company perfectly though. IC was huge and capey and unapologetically dorky. CW was a 4 color sideshow of heroes behaving badly. The former aimed high and missed its mark. The latter gave my inner 12 year old just what he needed.

-----------------------------
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@kennykeil

  

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Invisiblist
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64. "fans' expectations are the only thing ruining CW for them."
In response to Reply # 15


          

It never set itself up to be something it wasn't.

  

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Marbles
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5. "Civil War, but CW vs. 52 would be a better battle..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


And no "Big Event" comes close to touching Crisis on Infinite Earths. After all of these years, nothing has come close.

Peace,

*** MARBLES ***

  

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Melanism
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6. "No it wouldn't. Only if you want to have a reason to vote for DC."
In response to Reply # 5


          


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buckshot defunct
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7. "52 would win that one... but is it really a fair match up?"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

Civil War was a crossover book that touched damn near every Marvel title out there (But don't you just love how Daredevil stays above all the bullshit and does his own thing?)

The core Civil War miniseries was only 7 issues.

52 is completely self contained, and because there's 52 of them it can tell a lot more story. If this were a monthly book it would take nearly 4.5 years to complete. There's nothing "mini" about it.

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@kennykeil

  

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Marbles
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12. "Yeah, 52 has a distinct advantage."
In response to Reply # 7


  

          



True, DC has the advantage by having a lot more space for their story. Although with all the crossovers and Civil War specials, I bet Marvel had something close to 52 issues for the Civil War.

I guess I was thinking in terms of their effect on their respective Universes. I gotta hand it to Marvel, CW is shaking things up a great deal. I don't like all of the changes but I certainly applaud them for making moves.

Now that I think about it, has 52 really had any major impact yet? Great stories but I don't know if we've had anything really stick yet. We still have World War III to look forward to though.

Peace,

*** MARBLES ***

  

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mrhood75
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13. "I guess I'll go with CW"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

The IC series had serious problems with focus, and never really lived up to its potential after issue #1. There were occasional good moments sprinkled throughout the series, but there was too much treading water. I'd say the IC tie-ins were pretty useless as well, although some of the mini-series before the event were damn good.

The CW series is a lot more similar to the IC series than we'd care to admit. The high points were higher than what IC had to offer, but they spent a lot of time treading water too, and they had problems getting both sides motivation straight until, say #5. And the delays was a serious momentum killer. This shouldn't have taken almost a year to tell. Some of the tie-ins were REALLY good, some sucked ass.

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kayru99
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Thu Feb-22-07 11:16 AM

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14. "civil war, EASY"
In response to Reply # 0


          

The past 3 years of dc comics have been some of the stupidest shit i've seen in comics in a minute.

Identity crisis was a fuckin mess. Infinite Crisis was even worse. And anything that was remotely cool that happened around those series kinda disappeared (the villain army, the evil omacs, superman being susceptible to mind control, wonder woman being ready to clap on fools, and all things gail simone)

Civil War 7 was a letdown, cuz i don't think they know how to end alla this shit yet. But with that, at least the whole thing is a lot more cohesive than the bullshit that dc been doing. PARTS of 52 have been good (black adam, island of supervillains) others i've kinda stopped caring about. Seriously, is Renee Montoya THAT important that its gonna take over half of the series for her to become the Question?

  

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Marbles
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17. "Offtopic- What didn't you like about Identity Crisis"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          


Admittedly, I didn't read it when it was being published but I just copped the trade from the library. I thought it was fantastic.

Peace,

*** MARBLES ***

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
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Thu Feb-22-07 04:14 PM

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23. "it seemed really forced and really nonsensical and"
In response to Reply # 17


          

totally gratuitous.

The DC universe has a completely different feel than the marvel universe. It feels much bigger to me, and way more...stately? Older? DC comics seem like classic comics, for both good (Batman stories) and bad (damn near every superman story).

Identity Crisis just seemed like a very poorly thought-out attempt at "dirtying up" that universe. Instead of making it more relatable, it just felt like a bunch shocks for their own sake.

Shit felt like a comic snuff film, especially if you throw in Infinite Crisis as the bookend.

What's even more ironic, was that DC was making all this big to do about changing the overall darkness of the dc universe to a lighter tone. Their first steps included a rape, a double murder, and a headshot to one of the funniest characters in their universe.

  

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Invisiblist
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65. "I did the same, from the library. It was really good."
In response to Reply # 17


          

  

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buckshot defunct
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16. "SUB POST: Where does Annihilation fit in?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I know less people were reading it... but for those that did, whaddaya think?

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@kennykeil

  

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mrhood75
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18. "The main mini-series was better than CW..."
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

...both in how it was written and in terms of action. I'll even to get to the other four other series. But the action was top notch, and the characterizations were believable and well done.

I'll say the only problems with it was that Nova's narration was pretty annoying at times, and that they tried to cram too much stuff into issue #6. In retrospect, it could have used some extra pages.

However, action-wise, nothing in CW topped the Drax rampage, the Ronan/Super-Skrull rampage, or the Galactus event. Shoot, even the climax to Nova vs. Annihullus was better than Hercules vs. Clor.

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Melanism
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19. "It was better overall but it had less pressure"
In response to Reply # 16


          

They used characters nobody was using or people had pretty much had forgotten existed.
-------------------
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buckshot defunct
Member since May 02nd 2003
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38. "very true. But on the flipside...."
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

People might be less inclined to geek out over Annihilation for the very same reason.

It's hard for me to compare the two on an even playing field because Civil War had all the characters I've loved for years. Annihilation at its best could only hit me so hard, because I was still in the process of warming up to the characters.

And let's not front... hype counts for a lot. I like hype. Hype is fun.

-----------------------------
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@kennykeil

  

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JRennolds
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20. "IC, only because it gave us 52!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

CW was okay though...

GOMD

  

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justin_scott
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21. "infinite crises by a mile"
In response to Reply # 0


          

civil war started out great, but fizzled quick (with a few exceptions...she hulk 8, new avengers 22)

but then again, check the sig.

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Gemini_Two_One
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22. "^^^A gentleman and a scholar n/m"
In response to Reply # 21
Thu Feb-22-07 04:17 PM by Gemini_Two_One

  

          

!sig!
www.myspace.com/gemini2one

"If I was to follow you home would you keep me
Would you feed me, would you pet me
Would I fuck you till your sleepy?"

  

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Gemini_Two_One
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24. "I am going to log in under all my aliases to put IC in the lead"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Wonder-Alias Powers Activate!


!sig!
www.myspace.com/gemini2one

"If I was to follow you home would you keep me
Would you feed me, would you pet me
Would I fuck you till your sleepy?"

  

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buckshot defunct
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37. "better come up with some more aliases, buddy"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          


-----------------------------
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@kennykeil

  

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Melanism
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25. "Spider-Man's unmasking >>>>>>>>>>>> anything that happened in IC"
In response to Reply # 0


          


-------------------
"Fuck yo couch, nigga!" - Tom Cruise

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buckshot defunct
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31. "true...but IC had some nice oh shit! moments itself"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

Enough time has passed that we sort of forget about them... But worlds were rocked when Earth-2 Superman showed up.

Or how about crazy hypno Superman almost killing Batman?

Or how about Wonder Woman murking Max Lord

Or Batman's "Last time you inspired anyone was when you were dead" line...

Or Superboy Prime going apeshit insane


I'm fuzzy on the details, it was a while ago. But for the first half of Infinite Crisis, we were going completely bonkers over it. I remember that much. Too bad it didn't live up to its potential.

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mrhood75
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32. "The very end of issue #7 was very well done"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

Notably the death of Alex Luthor. Him getting fucked up and murked by the Joker after he didn't let Joker "play" was quite poetic. Plus Superboy Prime carving the "S" into his own chest while in the Green Lantern's prison was suitably creepy too.

IC started to fall off after Superboy went ape-shit and killed all the extra Teen Titans/Outsiders, but up until then, it was doing pretty good.

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justin_scott
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41. "yeah, that moment was a lil too over the top"
In response to Reply # 32


          

but it was one of the very few problems i had. and it was the biggest for me.

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Misses Snarko Snarkalicious
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Thu Feb-22-07 09:21 PM

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42. "the joker scene was dope n/m"
In response to Reply # 32


          

.

  

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Stryfe
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52. "this line alone beats the whole of CW"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

Batman's "Last time you inspired anyone was when you were dead" line...

patience is a virtue,but heaven awaits those who prey

  

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justin_scott
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40. "blue beetle's intelligence and death was better"
In response to Reply # 25


          

but spiderman was my number two. like i've said, i understand both sides, but one good thing is this leaves open the chance of dark peter, which i like, altho i think back in black may be a bad attempt to sell issues. i hope not, as spiderman is one of my favorite characters

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JRennolds
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46. "^^I AGREE! And the arc with Supes nearly murking Bats was classic!"
In response to Reply # 40


  

          

IC >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CW

GOMD

  

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lonesome_d
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26. "I'm going to vote Civil War based on focus"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Infinite Crisis was a good time, but it was a mess of sub-plots, some of which barely touched on the main series.

the magic/rock of eternity/Atlantis stuff? You could miss that entirely.

then there's the villains united bit. Cool, but inessential to the overall storyline. (VU/Secret Six were both better than IC though.)

And the superboy prime stuff.

And the Alex Luthor/multiverse stuff.

And the space stuff, which noone has figured out yet in any way.



Civil War, though, was about one issue. And it remained about one issue. And that paid off, even though I had trouble keeping track of how the non-major characters were aligned.

  

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buckshot defunct
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29. "a fair assessment"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          


-----------------------------
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@kennykeil

  

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justin_scott
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27. "what i didn't like about civil war"
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Feb-22-07 07:14 PM by justin_scott

          

first, it started off as a reality show gone bad. reality shows are bad enough in real life, and in a comic book it's as uncreative as i've ever seen a major event start (knightfall at least began with an interesting premise, then became wretched).

second, did anybody take a moment to learn about these villains they were about to fight? "hmmm, nitro can blow himself up. let's not rush into this with spectators all around." and then YOU THROW HIM INTO A BUS. YOU THREW A BOMB INTO A HUGE GAS CAN!

now at this point, civil war is actually fairly good, even with this lame beginning. the problem is, it quickly falls apart. of course major events have to happen during major events, but at least they should be believeable. mr fantastic's attitude during civil war was so far off that he became creepy. clone thor killing goliath was pathetic and tasteless. the punisher killing stiltman 2 was....ok, that was good. spiderman unmasking was ok. i can understand both sides of the argument, but at least it's believeable in the situation peter was in.

wolverine became a mess. so now he's damn near indestructable? he can fall thousands of feet, be blown up, burned, and not die? i wish they would stop adding arsenal to wolverine's rep. i mean, nowadays he's basically immortal. and how about that underwater scene where he's in iron mans' suit with his claws out? now that's he's one of the more popular characters, they've tried to make wolvie too cool in an attempt to continue his popularity.

bringing back captain mar-vell from the dead? *shakes head*

the thunderbolts was an interesting idea, and i liked it at first, at least until venom and green goblin entered. that felt too forced and meant for shock rather than a good idea or a natural progression. am i the only one who doesn't like the look of the new venom (also, is it truly max gorgan aka scorpion? one of my favorite villians along with electro)?

we're not even talking about the shipping schedule or the fact that frontline was supposed to be ten issue at first. basically, marvel made great money off civil war and decided to add about a 1/4 more than originally intended, so they either didn't plan this event out well enough, or they are gouging us consumers.

also, after awhile, those civil war covers got annoying. the civil war banner on the front page takes up room that should be used for art.

i can't speak on the last month as i haven't bought anything CW related except "the return," but from what i've heard of CW 7, it seems to have gone out with a yelp instead of a roar.


the difference between marvel and DC is right now, DC has a better editorial staff, because while infinite crises had it's problems, it held everything together, unlike civil war.

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buckshot defunct
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28. "I'm more curious to know what you liked about Infinite Crisis"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

Your criticisms seem valid although I don't completely agree with them. And in some cases you're even going kind of easy on Civil War. There were a lot of weak points there. Honestly, we could go on for days.

But what I wanna know is, how was Infinite Crisis any better?

For all its faults, Civil War managed to tell a mostly coherent and entertaining story. Infinite Crisis was just a mess.

-----------------------------
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@kennykeil

  

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justin_scott
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33. "RE: I'm more curious to know what you liked about Infinite Crisis"
In response to Reply # 28
Thu Feb-22-07 08:16 PM by justin_scott

          

another thing i didn't like about civil war, is that while infinite crisis had been developing for years, civil war felt like it was thought up as a way to battle DC for sales.

as for infinite crisis, it basically began about 2003 i think. it was a natural progression. first off, me personally, i think seven issues of infinite crisis were better drawn than the whole of civil war. as for the story, IC #1 was excellent, especially with the build up from all the spin offs, esp. countdown to infinite crisis. i wonder if some people may have been thrown off by not having read "crisis on infinite earths." personally, i thought infinite crisis had problems, as any major event usually does, but i found it understandable, but then again, i have all the spin offs, and i've read past DC events.

blue beetle being murdered by maxwell lord was shocking, and it was blue beetle! they made a d list superhero's death not only matter, but happen with dignity. the idea of superman being manipulated by mind control added a new danger to superman, and batman's satellite being used against him was brilliant.

post 31 and 32 also add some great reasons why IC was MY favorite by far.

honestly, i felt IC edged CW by a landslide. maybe if marvel had a better editorial staff, or if JOEY Q wasn't in charge, CW might have been memorable. as it is, it will be remembered for being shocking for shock value alone.

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Melanism
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34. "Whoa"
In response to Reply # 33


          

>honestly, i felt IC edged CW by a landslide. maybe if marvel
>had a better editorial staff, or if JOEY Q wasn't in charge,
>CW might have been memorable. as it is, it will be remembered
>for being shocking for shock value alone.

Shock for shock value? Civil War? Really?

Oh let me count the ways:
- Max Lord shooting Blue Beetle in the head
- Wonder Woman turning Max Lord's head 90 degrees
- Superboy Prime punching Pantha's head off
- Black Adam sticking his hand through Psycho Pirate's face
- Superboy Prime beating Earth-1 Supes to death with his bare hands.

Riiiiiiight.
>
>


-------------------
"Fuck yo couch, nigga!" - Tom Cruise

http://melanism.com
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justin_scott
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Thu Feb-22-07 08:33 PM

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35. "but only wonder woman was out of character"
In response to Reply # 34


          

and with previous situations, it was fairly understandable. even superheroes reach a breaking point.

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Melanism
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36. "Shall I go on"
In response to Reply # 35


          

- Batman ignoring Blue Beetle which leads to his death
- Superman being largely absent from the proceedings
- Batman taking up a gun to shoot Alexander Luthor when Nightwing was WOUNDED...not killed but WOUNDED.

And let's not forget what got the ball rolling.
Sue Dibny getting raped by Dr. Light.
-------------------
"Fuck yo couch, nigga!" - Tom Cruise

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justin_scott
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39. "i never said it was perfect"
In response to Reply # 36


          

just that it was better imo. batman ignoring blue beetle was a letdown, granted, but it was also kind of a boy crying wolf scenerio.

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mrhood75
Member since Dec 06th 2004
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Fri Feb-23-07 01:26 AM

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44. "Only one of these didn't work:"
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

>- Batman ignoring Blue Beetle which leads to his death

Yeah, this was dumb and out of character for Batman. The whole sad-sack portrayal of Blue Beetle and Booster Gold in the jump-off was off in general.


>- Batman taking up a gun to shoot Alexander Luthor when
>Nightwing was WOUNDED...not killed but WOUNDED.

Eh, Batman's thought he was dead.

>And let's not forget what got the ball rolling.
>Sue Dibny getting raped by Dr. Light.

I have never gotten the hatred for this. I never saw it as gratuitous or exploitive. It was given a lot of emotional weight. And I'm sorry, villains are bad people that do very bad, very heinous things. So they fucked with his brain, which set off all sorts of ethical problems. I thought it was handled well.

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justin_scott
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45. "and it's not like batman hasn't used a gun before"
In response to Reply # 44


          

and it's dick grayson.

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Stryfe
Member since Jun 16th 2002
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Fri Feb-23-07 09:27 AM

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53. "crisis had.."
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

4 miniseries leading into an event..none of the miniseries was needed to understand the event..

I never read COIE, or the 4 miniseries but i understood everything that happened in Crisis
the even mini showed everything happening, wich was expanded on in the regular issies of affected characters
whereas CW was just a mess..u needed to read spidermanto understand the main, u needed ff for the main and so on

IC changed the DCU without invalidating most of the back story...everything we read up untill Crisis still happened, hell it even validated everything pre COIE

IC had their characters actually acting in character,...WW is a warrior...she will do what needs to be done, Supes sees everything black and white, nto to mention Bats

IC had their second or third stringers actually turn into import people(beetle, booster gold) ...CW gave us goliath..

i can go on and on and on and on.....

but it boils down to this..
IC did what it set out to do..change the DCU with respect to the past, the present and a framework for the future
CW did what it set out to do..while pissing on the past, forcing the present, and mandhandling the future

patience is a virtue,but heaven awaits those who prey

  

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lonesome_d
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54. "Inifinite Crisis did not change the DCU in any significant way"
In response to Reply # 53


          

at least not in any way that was evident when Infinite Crisis ended, and a year later it's STILL not exactly clear what the only major change - the muh-muh-muh-muh multiverse - is.

  

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Stryfe
Member since Jun 16th 2002
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Fri Feb-23-07 10:02 AM

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55. "well lets see"
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

we have superboy as a major threat waiting to be released
a new status quo for bats
it validated everything that came before....
(undoing the change from COIE) sounds pretty big to me

plus..Crisis was meant to leadinto 52..explaing everything that happened after IC
so in that respect, we all knew that IC wasnt the end

patience is a virtue,but heaven awaits those who prey

  

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lonesome_d
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Fri Feb-23-07 10:19 AM

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57. "Hm. I was under the impression that 52 was a bit of an afterthought"
In response to Reply # 55


          

And yeah, the multiverse obviously would be a big change. But it's pretty clearly had little to no effect on any of the OYL titles (save possibly JSA), and we're almost done with 52 and it hasn't had any noticeable effect there either.

  

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Stryfe
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Fri Feb-23-07 10:23 AM

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59. "OYL was announced arround issue 3"
In response to Reply # 57


  

          


and more major effects
kyle rayner back as Ion
the retooling of checkmate
the multiverse(of course)
the retooling of the JSA, the JLA and to a lesser degree the titans

i dont read 53 anymore...mainly because i felt it was moving to slow...and ill be honest..i could've done without it, i prefer flash back in issues to a whole mini..but im still curious enough to buy the trade when the time comes

patience is a virtue,but heaven awaits those who prey

  

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Invisiblist
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68. "Mac Gargan. Yup, former Scorpion."
In response to Reply # 27


          

The suit found him after Mark Millar's 12-issue Marvel Knights Spider-man arc, which was great.

Also.......uh..........I've got Electro news for you, too. In that same arc Electro reveals to a shape-shifting prostitute (who usually changes into Sue Storm or Wanda Maximoff for her clientele) that he "learned to appreciate trying new things" while in jail. The way the scene is set up is very clever, and basically leads us to believe that he was going to request that the prostitute change into Spider-man so Electro could fuck him.

  

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phenompyrus
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30. "Civil War... Both should of been much better..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

Infinite Crisis #1 was an incredible beginning to the series (and one of the best DC single issues in recent memory), but unfortunately it never reached that mark again. The last issue fight scene was pretty cool, but DC really made some mistakes with this mini.

Civil War started well and got better up until the finale, which was by far the weakest issue of the bunch.

The 2 companies had ample opportunity to clean their respective universes up. Marvel has failed now 2x in a row (the joke that was HoM and recently Civil War) and DC failed with Infinite Crisis. I am not reading 52, so I cannot say anything about that at all.

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Brother_Afron
Member since Jul 06th 2003
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Thu Feb-22-07 09:44 PM

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43. "Honestly"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I can understand why someone would Like CW or IC better than the other, but ultimately the quality of the story-telling was the same. IC had giant premise that couldn't possible sustained, but the attempt was good.
CW was much more focused, but when it comes down to it, Millar isn't really that good of a writer, so he couldn't handle even that. So a good writer with an impossible story verses a good premise with a sketchy writer. Same result in the end.

Fun is the new gritty

  

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kayru99
Member since Jan 26th 2004
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Fri Feb-23-07 07:13 AM

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47. "man, WHAT is the qoute in your sig referring to?"
In response to Reply # 43


          

  

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Brother_Afron
Member since Jul 06th 2003
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Fri Feb-23-07 09:38 PM

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75. "RE: man, WHAT is the qoute in your sig referring to?"
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

The Icon book from Milestone.

Fun is the new gritty

  

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Mongo
Member since Oct 26th 2005
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Fri Feb-23-07 08:53 AM

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48. "Mongo's answer (edited)."
In response to Reply # 0
Fri Feb-23-07 08:57 AM by Mongo

  

          

Marvel takes bigger risks.

They've got a smaller body of iconic characters than DC, and have kept up by being a little more daring with their stuff. They've been known to shake up the X-Men, replace Spider Man with clones, turn Captain America into a redneck murderer (old Gruenwald series, drawn by Kieron Dwyer when he was really on top of his game), and do the Ultimate line - which was a a really great jumpstart to reimagining stories. Their status quo is less a matter of public record, whereas DC's major changes: Death of Superman, New Batman, killing off Robin - made it into mainstream news.

So when I heard about Civil War, I thought to myself 'Well, Bendis isn't writing it, so it'll be less about 'cracking the Internet open.' Let's see how it effects the Marvelverse.'

Here's the thing.

It HASN'T really.

- X books: Unaffected.
- Mighty Avengers: now government sponsored. Which they have been off and on again for DECADES. No Thor. Now Ares. Same premise.
- New Avengers: essentially re-hashed Defenders - a 'non-team' of underground heroes, taking on the weirdness the mainstream characters don't.
- Spiderman: the underdog hero hated by a public that doesn't understand or appreciate him.
- Captain America: Now THIS is different and interesting. But overall, they've not implied how this changes the overall Marvelverse, if at all. If anything, it seems to be a NON-effect, as Cap's presence is excised from any Avengers series or their tangents.
- Omega Flight: Alpha Flight.
- The Initiative: looks like this is taking the place of Young Avengers, as it follows War Machine, Yellowjacket, Justice and a small crew training the next generation of heroes.
- Fantastic Four: Supergenius + powerful wife, the Thing and Human Torch. Okay, so now the leader is much cooler, a better fighter, and his wife is a trained warrior. This isn't really a leap from the status quo so much as a shakeup. Hell, She-Hulk was a long-standing member of the team when the Thing left.
- Thunderbolts: under Nicieza, hasn't really had a status quo in years. But villains as heroes? Eh, been done. By Busiek. 'Written By Ellis' doesn't hold the same cachet it did five years ago.

Civil War's been a really REALLY good story.

I completely understand Melanism's preference.

But in the end, I care more about what happens to the DC Universe BECAUSE of its iconic status quo.

Infinite Crisis on its own SUCKED.

Big.

They nuked Superboy, who was potentially one of the coolest re-iterations since the original COIE, screwed up the Flash, and none of the OYL storylines really mean anything. And for what? There were no other Earth's before - or so we were told - and now there are...what? There was no clear point or answer to the series.

But as far as opening potential storylines, it's done WONDERS.

52 has reinvigorated the weekly serial format. This WWIII / Countdown / 52 mystery is COMPELLING. I actually WANT to know what happened, and where this is leading us. With Crisis, DC created a fantastic springboard for MORE stories, and that's the hook. I want to see wha the Hell 52 is. I want to know how they remix the DCverse. I want to see the new status quo they're building.

Civil War is finite. It's a good story, but the 'OOOOO/AAAAAAH' factor is ultimateley limited. They've spun the whole GOVERNMENT OUT OF CONTROL and GOVERNMENT SUPERTEAMS so many times, I almsot don't care. And the face that the government won in the end wasn't actually very interesting. I was hoping they'd do something unexpected, like maybe Iron Man would recant...or someone would die and force everyone to pause...but Cap biting the bullet in his typically Nobler-Than-Thou manner was kind of...well, predictable. They never tied in Annhilation, which is a potentially more world-shaking storyline, and World War Hulk - which will be GREAT - hasn't promised anything earth-shattering. In fact, Quesada's even said that it's going to have LESS impact that CW. Meaning the CW story doesn't actually do much for future storylines.

So for Mongo, the answer is Infinite Crisis. Not on the credit of the story alone, which was a mess, but as a foundation for future storytelling.

  

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Melanism
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Fri Feb-23-07 09:03 AM

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49. "I was just talking about the miniseries not the aftermath"
In response to Reply # 48


          

Your post is basically a vote for Civil War.
-------------------
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Mongo
Member since Oct 26th 2005
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Fri Feb-23-07 09:06 AM

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50. "Then ok. Throw it where you wanna."
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

I didn't click on either of the two above yet.

The commentary stands.

  

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Marbles
Member since Oct 19th 2004
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Fri Feb-23-07 10:37 AM

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60. "Damn, Mongo...nice breakdown."
In response to Reply # 48


  

          

>Marvel takes bigger risks.

This is the only part that I disagree with but it's ultimately a matter of opinion.

Civil War has left a lot of questions and your post brings some of them to mind for me.

1) Are they gonna undo Spider-Man's ID being public? How can he operate underground with the New Avengers if everyone knows he's Peter Parker?

2) The X-Men mostly played the sidelines but what are the effects of the registration act on them? Are they exempt since they have Sentinels in their backyard?

3) Where is Thor? Did he take off to Asgard or something?

4) On a scale of 1-10, just how lame are the New Thunderbolts (cheap shot, I know).

Peace,

*** MARBLES ***




>They've got a smaller body of iconic characters than DC, and
>have kept up by being a little more daring with their stuff.
>They've been known to shake up the X-Men, replace Spider Man
>with clones, turn Captain America into a redneck murderer (old
>Gruenwald series, drawn by Kieron Dwyer when he was really on
>top of his game), and do the Ultimate line - which was a a
>really great jumpstart to reimagining stories. Their status
>quo is less a matter of public record, whereas DC's major
>changes: Death of Superman, New Batman, killing off Robin -
>made it into mainstream news.








>
>So when I heard about Civil War, I thought to myself 'Well,
>Bendis isn't writing it, so it'll be less about 'cracking the
>Internet open.' Let's see how it effects the Marvelverse.'
>
>Here's the thing.
>
>It HASN'T really.
>
>- X books: Unaffected.
>- Mighty Avengers: now government sponsored. Which they have
>been off and on again for DECADES. No Thor. Now Ares. Same
>premise.
>- New Avengers: essentially re-hashed Defenders - a 'non-team'
>of underground heroes, taking on the weirdness the mainstream
>characters don't.
>- Spiderman: the underdog hero hated by a public that doesn't
>understand or appreciate him.
>- Captain America: Now THIS is different and interesting. But
>overall, they've not implied how this changes the overall
>Marvelverse, if at all. If anything, it seems to be a
>NON-effect, as Cap's presence is excised from any Avengers
>series or their tangents.
>- Omega Flight: Alpha Flight.
>- The Initiative: looks like this is taking the place of Young
>Avengers, as it follows War Machine, Yellowjacket, Justice
>and a small crew training the next generation of heroes.
>- Fantastic Four: Supergenius + powerful wife, the Thing and
>Human Torch. Okay, so now the leader is much cooler, a better
>fighter, and his wife is a trained warrior. This isn't really
>a leap from the status quo so much as a shakeup. Hell,
>She-Hulk was a long-standing member of the team when the Thing
>left.
>- Thunderbolts: under Nicieza, hasn't really had a status quo
>in years. But villains as heroes? Eh, been done. By Busiek.
>'Written By Ellis' doesn't hold the same cachet it did five
>years ago.
>
>Civil War's been a really REALLY good story.
>
>I completely understand Melanism's preference.
>
>But in the end, I care more about what happens to the DC
>Universe BECAUSE of its iconic status quo.
>
>Infinite Crisis on its own SUCKED.
>
>Big.
>
>They nuked Superboy, who was potentially one of the coolest
>re-iterations since the original COIE, screwed up the Flash,
>and none of the OYL storylines really mean anything. And for
>what? There were no other Earth's before - or so we were told
>- and now there are...what? There was no clear point or answer
>to the series.
>
>But as far as opening potential storylines, it's done WONDERS.
>
>
>52 has reinvigorated the weekly serial format. This WWIII /
>Countdown / 52 mystery is COMPELLING. I actually WANT to know
>what happened, and where this is leading us. With Crisis, DC
>created a fantastic springboard for MORE stories, and that's
>the hook. I want to see wha the Hell 52 is. I want to know how
>they remix the DCverse. I want to see the new status quo
>they're building.
>
>Civil War is finite. It's a good story, but the
>'OOOOO/AAAAAAH' factor is ultimateley limited. They've spun
>the whole GOVERNMENT OUT OF CONTROL and GOVERNMENT SUPERTEAMS
>so many times, I almsot don't care. And the face that the
>government won in the end wasn't actually very interesting. I
>was hoping they'd do something unexpected, like maybe Iron Man
>would recant...or someone would die and force everyone to
>pause...but Cap biting the bullet in his typically
>Nobler-Than-Thou manner was kind of...well, predictable. They
>never tied in Annhilation, which is a potentially more
>world-shaking storyline, and World War Hulk - which will be
>GREAT - hasn't promised anything earth-shattering. In fact,
>Quesada's even said that it's going to have LESS impact that
>CW. Meaning the CW story doesn't actually do much for future
>storylines.
>
>So for Mongo, the answer is Infinite Crisis. Not on the credit
>of the story alone, which was a mess, but as a foundation for
>future storytelling.
>

  

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Mongo
Member since Oct 26th 2005
45670 posts
Fri Feb-23-07 11:01 AM

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61. "RE: Damn, Mongo...nice breakdown."
In response to Reply # 60


  

          

>>Marvel takes bigger risks.
>
> This is the only part that I disagree with but it's
>ultimately a matter of opinion.
>
> Civil War has left a lot of questions and your post brings
>some of them to mind for me.
>
> 1) Are they gonna undo Spider-Man's ID being public? How
>can he operate underground with the New Avengers if everyone
>knows he's Peter Parker?

I guess that's a reason to pick up Spidey + New Defenders.

Which is to say YOU can.

I'm not sure I care.

>
> 2) The X-Men mostly played the sidelines but what are the
>effects of the registration act on them? Are they exempt
>since they have Sentinels in their backyard?

See, this doesn't make sense to me at all.

They SAY they're on the sidelines, so they're left on the sidelines?

How many of these other shmucks locked up in 42 did the same thing?

It's not terribly consistent. Once again, the X-verse slides out of the mainstream MU.

Still, I thought they were tangental to the actual story. Having X-Men in there might have muddled things.

>
> 3) Where is Thor? Did he take off to Asgard or something?

Mike Oeming wrote the series out of existence. Rather unceremoniously. And crappy. Ragnofok. Word has it JMS may be rebooting it. I don't know how much I care at this point now that I know they can clone him.

>
> 4) On a scale of 1-10, just how lame are the New
>Thunderbolts (cheap shot, I know).

I liked it better as Suicide Squad, as written by Ostrander. Amanda Waller >> Norman Osborn.

>
> Peace,
>
>*** MARBLES ***

  

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bluetiger
Charter member
36723 posts
Fri Feb-23-07 12:30 PM

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62. "On Thor:"
In response to Reply # 60
Fri Feb-23-07 12:30 PM by bluetiger

  

          

> 3) Where is Thor? Did he take off to Asgard or something?

Thor is supposedly now a cosmic, interstellar deity

The load from wikipedia:
"Thor eventually inherited the Odinforce, which saw him become as powerful as his father, Odin. In this form, Thor was capable of manipulating vast amounts of energy for a variety of purposes including temporary augmentation of physical attributes, energy projection, matter manipulation and interdimensional teleportation. While in possession of the Odinforce, Thor was capable of decapitating a Desak-occupied Destroyer with one hammer throw. Thor later acquired the knowledge of the Runes and a level of enlightenment that allowed him to free Asgard from the eternal cycle of Ragnarok. Leaving Asgard to become "Endgame Thor" and a cosmic deity, he entered into hibernation in an unknown location in space."


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Mongo
Member since Oct 26th 2005
45670 posts
Fri Feb-23-07 12:46 PM

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63. "I reiterate"
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

>Mike Oeming wrote the series out of existence. Rather unceremoniously. And crappy. Ragnofok. Word has it JMS may be rebooting it. I don't know how much I care at this point now that I know they can clone him.

  

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bluetiger
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Fri Feb-23-07 12:55 PM

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66. "that's why I referred to it as "the load"."
In response to Reply # 63


  

          

what they've done to Thor has hurt my little tiny blackened with hellfire evil heart.

The Sig Below:
Rule No. 1: Never Lose Money. Rule No. 2: Never Forget Rule No. 1.

dale si tu puedes

www.myspace.com/ryendavidmusic
www.last.fm/user/lateralus418
http://tinyurl.com/9u9nm

  

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Mongo
Member since Oct 26th 2005
45670 posts
Fri Feb-23-07 12:57 PM

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67. "ah...yes."
In response to Reply # 66


  

          

  

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Invisiblist
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33759 posts
Sat Feb-24-07 01:51 AM

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78. "I'm just guessing, since I didn't read IC, but CW."
In response to Reply # 0


          

Why?

Because the arguments on whether or not CW was dope or not hinge not only on how we think they're using the characters, but on our personal views. Honestly, I rode for anti-reg for a very long time, and now I feel like a dummy just like Cap does. That's good fucking writing. On here we didn't even get too deep into the whole "are they acting in character" thing, but we DID find out a lot about each other as we talked about the series.

GOOD FUCKING WRITING.

  

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Natural Mystic
Charter member
posts
Sun Mar-04-07 02:47 PM

81. "Civil war started off strong, then lost focus. But Im still a Marvel Gir..."
In response to Reply # 0


          


Sorry Justin.

Civil war.

______

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