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Subject: "Never knew the 1st Lionel Jefferson (Mike Evans) created Good Times" Previous topic | Next topic
legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Thu Jun-23-22 01:47 PM

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"Never knew the 1st Lionel Jefferson (Mike Evans) created Good Times"
Thu Jun-23-22 01:47 PM by legsdiamond

          

Just watched a video on the actual creator for Good Times, Sanford and Son, The Jeffersons and Good Times and how Norman Lear stole most of the credit.

Those shows were too Black for a white jewish dude to create them.

Mike Evans and Eric Monte came up with these shows. I had no idea the original Lionel Jefferson created most of these shows.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
I remember watching something about that.
Jun 23rd 2022
1
yep little known fact
Jun 23rd 2022
2
Nope
Jun 23rd 2022
3
I didnt say anything about the white shows
Jun 24th 2022
12
Lear didn't steal anything
Jun 23rd 2022
4
What ?
Jun 23rd 2022
5
Lear is not credited as creator on either of these
Jun 23rd 2022
6
You missed a reply
Jun 24th 2022
9
      That link is weak
Jun 24th 2022
14
           Your reply is weak
Jun 24th 2022
16
                Norma Lear is a Jew and I am white
Jun 24th 2022
17
                     You really like Lear
Jun 24th 2022
18
                          he made MAUDE!!!!
Jun 24th 2022
19
                          lmao
Jun 24th 2022
20
                          Guess it's settled then.
Jun 26th 2022
21
                               Nah you will keep defending racism
Jun 26th 2022
22
                                    gotta love how they protect their own
Jun 27th 2022
23
                                    They don't stop won't stop going all out to protect them
Jun 27th 2022
24
                                    ..
Jun 27th 2022
25
                                         smh
Jun 27th 2022
26
SPLENDID times.
Jun 24th 2022
7
LOL
Jun 24th 2022
13
I laffed... n/m
Jun 24th 2022
15
The Edwards.
Jun 24th 2022
8
lol
Jun 24th 2022
10
lmao
Jun 24th 2022
11
indirectly
Jun 27th 2022
28
The Jeffersons were a spin off from All In The Family
Jun 27th 2022
27

Lurkmode
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Thu Jun-23-22 03:49 PM

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1. "I remember watching something about that. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Norman Lear still getting credit with the help of Jimmy Kimmel with the live shows.

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mikediggz
Member since Dec 02nd 2003
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Thu Jun-23-22 03:55 PM

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2. "yep little known fact"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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handle
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Thu Jun-23-22 06:00 PM

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3. "Nope"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Mike Evans and Eric Monte created Steptoe and Son?????

Cooley High - yes. Good Times - yes. What's Happening!? Yes (see Colley High.) Jeffersons? Disputed but got a settlement.

But not All In The Family, One Day at a Time, Mary Hartman, Maude, A.k.a Pablo and CERTAINLY NOT Sanford and Son, or Sanford Arms, Grady or Sanford!

And Lear developed and/or produced the shows - he doesn't have "created by" on the vast majority.

You're right though - Norma Lear is a Jew.

------------


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http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Jun-24-22 07:49 AM

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12. "I didnt say anything about the white shows"
In response to Reply # 3


          

you are correct on Sanford and Son

but he didn’t envision Black people when recreating that show

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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jrocc
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Thu Jun-23-22 07:39 PM

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4. "Lear didn't steal anything"
In response to Reply # 0


          

he gets the credit for producing these shows, not creating them. most of these shows already existing in the UK before they were remade in the States.

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
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Thu Jun-23-22 07:56 PM

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5. "What ?"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

The Jeffersons and Good Times existed in the UK ? No

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handle
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Thu Jun-23-22 10:34 PM

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6. "Lear is not credited as creator on either of these"
In response to Reply # 5


          

>The Jeffersons and Good Times existed in the UK ? No

Good Times:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Times
Created by Eric Monte and Mike Evans
Developed by Norman Lear

The Jeffersons:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jeffersons

Created by:
Don Nicholl
Michael Ross
Bernie West

Developed by Norman Lear

------------


Gone: My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

  

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Lurkmode
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Fri Jun-24-22 06:43 AM

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9. "You missed a reply"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

Lear was a thief

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUt_nNs4i5g

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handle
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Fri Jun-24-22 10:17 AM

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14. "That link is weak"
In response to Reply # 9


          

It's simply a restatement of what Eric Monte is saying, and some titles placed over it.

And her closing statement of "Hey, Norman Lear REFUSES to respond to us, so we'll never know how much he stole - but he certainly stole a lot that's for certain."

It's fucking weak, IMHO.

But they do point our Norman Lear is a Jew a couple of times. That's good reporting!!! (What do Jews know about living in a ghetto anyways? )

------------


Gone: My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

  

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Lurkmode
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Fri Jun-24-22 11:58 AM

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16. "Your reply is weak"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

You jumped in the thread to cover for Lear as if he is your Father. You were quick to whitesplain something the op never brought up. You wasted no time excusing and justifying Lear's theft in another reply, but for some reason you went to sleep at the wheel when another poster started talking about the UK Jeffersons and Good Times.

Newsflash Jews can be called out. Keep the same energy for Eric Monte missing residuals and getting blacklisted.

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handle
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Fri Jun-24-22 12:02 PM

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17. "Norma Lear is a Jew and I am white"
In response to Reply # 16
Fri Jun-24-22 12:05 PM by handle

          

Good points.

Eric Monte MUST have been wronged!! A YouTube video with TITLES restating things he stated is proof.

EDIT; I'm white.
Norman lear is jewish.

------------


Gone: My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

  

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Lurkmode
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Fri Jun-24-22 12:19 PM

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18. "You really like Lear"
In response to Reply # 17


  

          

You going hard for him but still nothing about Eric Monte, John Amos fired, Esther Rolle demanding her character have a husband. I guess you believe everything is a lie if it comes from Blacks.

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Jun-24-22 12:54 PM

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19. "he made MAUDE!!!! "
In response to Reply # 18


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
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Fri Jun-24-22 12:58 PM

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20. "lmao"
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

n/m

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handle
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Sun Jun-26-22 10:59 AM

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21. "Guess it's settled then."
In response to Reply # 18
Sun Jun-26-22 11:00 AM by handle

          

>I guess you believe everything is a lie if it comes from Blacks.

Nope, just that the video is a regurgitation of the same stuff he's been peddling for decades. I remember this from the mid 2000s too. Now it's in a Youtube video and *you* believe every word of it....

AND if anyone disagrees it's because they're white.

Note: Eric Monte has also said he created "The Cosby Show." Believe that too?

I don't recall any of the other hundreds of people Lear has worked with accusing him of being a “a racist, a hypocrite, a thief, and a liar."

Weird that even John Amos hasn't mentioned that - especially in in the decades after? Where's the support from the black (or other) cast members for these accusations? Or other writers?


So Lear's got the entire world gassed up
- and I don't believe anything that black people say -
or Eric Monte might be a little angry and bitter that his 1970's success hasn't continued and it's because of a decades long campaign by the Norman Lear to fuck him.

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0599088/ <-Eric Monte
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005131/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1 <-Norman Lear





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Gone: My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

  

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Lurkmode
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Sun Jun-26-22 06:29 PM

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22. "Nah you will keep defending racism"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          


>
>Nope, just that the video is a regurgitation of the same stuff
>he's been peddling for decades. I remember this from the mid
>2000s too. Now it's in a Youtube video and *you* believe every
>word of it....

Your assumption, I never said I believe every word because it's in a Youtube video. The fact that you believe that and ran with it says a lot about you.

>AND if anyone disagrees it's because they're white.

Nope you didn't just disagree, you made excuses, deflected in an attempt to avoid the obvious, Lear/Hollywood racism.

>Note: Eric Monte has also said he created "The Cosby Show."
>Believe that too?
>

Did he say it in a Youtube video ?

"...still nothing about Eric Monte, John Amos fired, Esther Rolle demanding her character have a husband."

^^^^^^^If you are going to ask me questions make sure you address the issues I raised.


>I don't recall any of the other hundreds of people Lear has
>worked with accusing him of being a “a racist, a hypocrite,
>a thief, and a liar."
>

You don't recall anything about why John Amos got fired from the show, or Ether Rolle saying she wanted her character to have a husband and Father ? Eric Monte never "peddled" anything about that ? Yeah right

>Weird that even John Amos hasn't mentioned that - especially
>in in the decades after? Where's the support from the black
>(or other) cast members for these accusations? Or other
>writers?

Do you know what blacklist is and how it works ?

>
>So Lear's got the entire world gassed up
>- and I don't believe anything that black people say -
>or Eric Monte might be a little angry and bitter that his
>1970's success hasn't continued and it's because of a decades
>long campaign by the Norman Lear to fuck him.
>

So Eric Monte is just a bitter Black man. Hollywood is not racist. Norman Lear is not racist. Norman Lear had all these shows but he never had any influence or power.

Eric Monte sued CBS, Tandem Productions, producers Norman Lear and Jerry Perenchio in 1977 because he was a little angry and bitter that his 1970's success didn't continue.

Eric Monte received a 1 million dollar settlement and a small percentage of the residuals from Good Times because he was a little angry and bitter that his success 1970's didn't continue.

When the opportunities to pitch new scripts dried up after the lawsuit it had nothing to do with Norman Lear and Hollywood blacklisting him, no it was the fact that he was a little angry and bitter that his 1970's success didn't continue.


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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Mon Jun-27-22 07:13 AM

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23. "gotta love how they protect their own"
In response to Reply # 22


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Lurkmode
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Mon Jun-27-22 09:34 AM

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24. "They don't stop won't stop going all out to protect them"
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

n/m

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handle
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Mon Jun-27-22 10:34 AM

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25. ".."
In response to Reply # 22


          

>You don't recall anything about why John Amos got fired from the show, >or Ether Rolle saying she wanted her character to have a husband and >Father ? Eric Monte never "peddled" anything about that ? Yeah right

Disagreements over the creative direction of the show? Yes.

I never took those FAMOUS disagreements to mean they accused Lear of being just a plain racist, liar, hypocrite and thief. I took that that they had different ideas of where the show was going.

I recall that Lear did place a working father into the show and did change scripts based on actor input - but ultimately had a different direction for the show than what some of the biggest stars on the show wanted.

They fired Amos and leaned HEAVILY into JJ - which made the show much more like Happy Days. And then Ester Rolle left for two seasons and CAME BACK.

(It's not like What's Happening was leaning into hard social issues over and over.)

https://www.vulture.com/2015/10/john-amos-mary-tyler-moore-good-times.html

Swipe:
So Good Times remains one of my favorite comedies of all time, because when it was at its best, it stood shoulder-to-shoulder with any of Norman Lear’s shows. You alluded earlier to some of the negative aspects of the show for you, but I’m wondering, overall, what your main recollection of the show is four decades later?

I remember — I couldn’t forget — the fact that Norman was probably the most courageous producer/writer/director that had come into television. I was very fortunate to get to work for him. We tackled subject matter that nobody touches today, things like seniors being forced to eat pet food because of financial constraints. J.J. getting shot by a gang member. You can’t open the paper today without seeing some subject we covered 40 years ago. I knew I was in a blessed situation. And also, I was carrying the weight of being the first black father of a complete family, and I carried that responsibility seriously. Maybe too much so. Norman thought I was taking on too much of a burden with it. But it was my responsibility. I knew that millions of black people were watching. I knew that my own father was watching. My own children were watching. And I was not going to portray something that was less than redeeming.

You were vocal when the show started moving in a different direction, playing to the popularity of Jimmie Walker’s character, J.J.

The writers began to lose focus on my other two children: Bern Nadette Stanis, who portrayed Thelma, and of course Ralph Carter, who portrayed Michael — the militant midget, we called him, because of his political convictions. With their aspirations to become a Supreme Court justice and a surgeon, I thought we could’ve gotten a great deal of mileage out of that. They chose to go for the obvious and the comedic. It started to dissipate into something I wasn’t terribly proud of. I thought there was a little too much buffoonery. And it wasn’t a matter of being jealous of . I love comedians; I love anyone who could make somebody laugh. But by the same token, I had these other two children in the family, and I felt it was doing a disservice to them and to the image of young people to say, “You guys don’t really matter. We’re more interested in seeing J.J. with a chicken hat on. At least that’s the way I saw it.

It’s what led to you getting fired from the show, right?

I was categorized by Norman as a “disruptive element.” When he made the call telling me I would no longer be with the show, he said that’s how I was described and assessed by the rest of the cast, and certainly the production company — a disruptive element. So they killed me off.

You weren’t alone in your concerns about the direction of the show, though. Based on everything I’ve read, Esther Rolle shared your sense of responsibility to put out the right image to viewers.

She’d come from very modest circumstances. I think Esther didn’t get her first pair of new shoes until she was 13 or 14 years old. She knew deprivation, and she knew hardship. So her reaction to playing that character was based in truth, as mine was. We always felt that we would be the ultimate litmus test for the veracity of the dialogue and the character situations. I remember having a with her, and telling her that we were going to have to stick together and make sure that what we felt about the characters, and their integrity as a family, became a bond with us. And she had no problem with that.

The show was built around a character she had first played on All in the Family, but from what I’ve read, she was very interested in having another strong adult character on the show to play opposite.

Were it not for Esther Rolle, quite frankly, I would not have gotten the job as James Evans. She insisted that she have a husband on the show. She did not want to perpetuate the negative stereotype of another matriarchal family. She told Norman, “I want a husband. I want a husband who works. And I don’t want him to be an alcoholic or druggie. I want a husband who’s going to be a family man.” And when I got to read for her, for Ms. Rolle and Norman, in his office, at the conclusion of the reading, she turned to Norman and said, “He’ll do just fine.” And that’s how I got the job as J.J.’s daddy. I thank Esther to this day for the opportunity.

If there was any upside to your exit from the show, it was that it gave Ms. Rolle one of her most iconic moments on the series— when she broke down in the kitchen after your death and screamed, “Damn, damn, damn!” I’ve always wandered if you watched that episode. It would’ve been strange to see your character mourned like that!

It’s a very rare experience. Not too many people get to see their own funeral. I saw the episode years and years ago. It’s still a mystery to me how my character died. It’s a matter of conjecture. Some people say he died on the Alaskan pipeline. Some say he died in a truck crash. All I know is that I died. And hopefully there was some insurance for the family.

Your departure from Good Times also made you available for Roots. It’s being remade for next year, and LeVar Burton is associated with it. Any feelings about whether this is a good idea?

All I know about it is that LeVar is onboard as a co–executive producer, and that Laurence Fishburne has been cast as the late Alex Haley. I’m curious about how they’re going to do the story this time. Are they going to do a replication of the original, or is it going to be a new script? I have faith it’s going to be done right, though, because it’s a Wolper project. Mark — David’s son — had the rare privilege of learning at his father’s knee what goes into a project to make it the resounding worldwide success that Roots became.

Ms. Rolle quit Good Times a year after you were fired, in part because she had many of the same concerns you did about the direction of the show. Did you ever talk to her about her decision to leave?
She never expressed to me personally why she left the show. But it was obvious. And from what I was able to infer from the articles I read, she left the show after I’d been killed off the show. She thought it was going downhill into an area of buffoonery and away from what her intentions were initially. But the show suffered so badly in the ratings, they brought her back for one more year, and then the show ultimately went off the air.

You’ve put the whole experience behind you and made up with Mr. Lear, right?

I certainly did. It was a matter of me maturing, and the posttraumatic stress syndrome I’d suffered as a result of playing football and boxing. Once I’d matured, I’d realized the mistakes I’d made in addressing my grievances about scripts. Everything to me at the time was confrontational. I was younger, I was angry, I was mad at the world. I wanted to right every wrong with every line. And they got tired of it. I told Norman to his face, when I was at an event honoring him, “I would have fired me, too.” Because life’s too short to put up with somebody who’s unhappy on a job where they’re making an incredible salary and receiving the acclamation of millions.
--

I didn't read "RACIST" in that I read "different" and even "wrong" but not racist. And never have a heard "lairs" and "thieves" from anyone other than Eric Monte.

Hey, you want to believe a Youtube video that's basically a transcript of Eric Monte saying that Norman Lear is lying thieving Jew who was destroyed his life because he was too black and talked too much - I don't see that from what I've heard.

BUT as LEGS points out: I'M WHITE.

I'm firing myself from this thread now.



------------


Gone: My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

  

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Lurkmode
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Mon Jun-27-22 02:20 PM

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26. "smh"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

>Disagreements over the creative direction of the show? Yes.
>

You mean "too much buffoonery" don't whitewash it.

>I never took those FAMOUS disagreements to mean they accused
>Lear of being just a plain racist, liar, hypocrite and thief.
>I took that that they had different ideas of where the show
>was going.
>



Rolle and Amos became openly critical – voicing their criticism in interviews with Ebony Magazine and TV Guide. Rolle’s comments about the JJ character in a 1975 Ebony article,

“He’s 18 and doesn’t work. He can’t read and write. He doesn’t think. The show didn’t start out to be that. Michael’s role of a bright, thinking child has been subtly reduced. Little by little – with the help of the artist – Jimmie Walker, I suppose they couldn’t do that to me – they have made him more stupid and enlarged the whole role. have been quietly slipped in on us through the character of the oldest child. I resent the imagery that says to black kids that you can make it by standing on the corner saying ‘Dy-no-mite!”


>I recall that Lear did place a working father into the show
>and did change scripts based on actor input - but ultimately
>had a different direction for the show than what some of the
>biggest stars on the show wanted.
>
>They fired Amos and leaned HEAVILY into JJ - which made the
>show much more like Happy Days. And then Ester Rolle left for
>two seasons and CAME BACK.
>

More like Happy Days lmao Esther Rolle left because of the buffoonery and the pay raise she didn't get.

>(It's not like What's Happening was leaning into hard social
>issues over and over.)
>

smh another deflection


>
>I didn't read "RACIST" in that I read "different" and even
>"wrong" but not racist. And never have a heard "lairs" and
>"thieves" from anyone other than Eric Monte.
>

You read excuses for racism not "different"

>Hey, you want to believe a Youtube video that's basically a
>transcript of Eric Monte saying that Norman Lear is lying
>thieving Jew who was destroyed his life because he was too
>black and talked too much - I don't see that from what I've
>heard.
>

Norman Lear could tell you everything Eric Monte said is true and you still would go out of your way to excuse it.

>BUT as LEGS points out: I'M WHITE.
>
>I'm firing myself from this thread now.
>
>
>

No surprise take your ball and run Forest run.

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FLUIDJ
Member since Sep 18th 2002
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Fri Jun-24-22 05:20 AM

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7. "SPLENDID times."
In response to Reply # 5
Fri Jun-24-22 05:20 AM by FLUIDJ

  

          

Ain't we Blokes lucky we got em, aye?

"Get ready....for your blessing....."
"Bury me by my Grand-Grand and when you can come follow me"

  

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My_SP1200_Broken_Again
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13. "LOL"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

  

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Marbles
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Fri Jun-24-22 11:37 AM

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15. "I laffed... n/m"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

  

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FLUIDJ
Member since Sep 18th 2002
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Fri Jun-24-22 05:23 AM

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8. "The Edwards."
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

Moving on up...
To a deluxe flat in Kensington.


"Get ready....for your blessing....."
"Bury me by my Grand-Grand and when you can come follow me"

  

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Lurkmode
Member since May 07th 2011
4650 posts
Fri Jun-24-22 06:44 AM

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10. "lol"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

n/m

---------------------------
Signature

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
75189 posts
Fri Jun-24-22 07:44 AM

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11. "lmao"
In response to Reply # 8


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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jrocc
Charter member
6456 posts
Mon Jun-27-22 05:24 PM

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28. "indirectly"
In response to Reply # 5


          

both shows are spin-offs of All In The Family which is a remake of a British show. Good Times is actually a spin-off of Maude which itself is a spin-off of All In The Family.

i wasn't actually saying that Good Times and Jeffersons themselves were British shows. i was saying that most of what Norman Lear is famous for is either stuff that he didn't create or based on British shows. he's mostly known as a producer.

  

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Adwhizz
Member since Nov 12th 2003
40677 posts
Mon Jun-27-22 02:43 PM

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27. "The Jeffersons were a spin off from All In The Family"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

I'm not going to discredit this guy's claims but Sitcoms being inspired by international shows and then localized with actors of different racial backgrounds isn't unheard of.

Sanford and Son was based on a British show called Steptoe and Son.
They even had an episode poking fun at this called "Steinberg and Son" where Fred was upset about a new TC show with a Jewish Cast that was very similar to him and Lamont's life

R.I.P. Loud But Wrong Guy
Dec 29th 2009 - Dec 17th 2017

  

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