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|Forum name||General Discussion|
|Topic subject||Never knew the 1st Lionel Jefferson (Mike Evans) created Good Times|
13463015, Never knew the 1st Lionel Jefferson (Mike Evans) created Good Times|
Posted by legsdiamond, Thu Jun-23-22 01:47 PM
Just watched a video on the actual creator for Good Times, Sanford and Son, The Jeffersons and Good Times and how Norman Lear stole most of the credit.
Those shows were too Black for a white jewish dude to create them.
Mike Evans and Eric Monte came up with these shows. I had no idea the original Lionel Jefferson created most of these shows.
13463025, I remember watching something about that. |
Posted by Lurkmode, Thu Jun-23-22 03:49 PM
Norman Lear still getting credit with the help of Jimmy Kimmel with the live shows.
13463026, yep little known fact|
Posted by mikediggz, Thu Jun-23-22 03:55 PM
Posted by handle, Thu Jun-23-22 06:00 PM
Mike Evans and Eric Monte created Steptoe and Son?????
Cooley High - yes. Good Times - yes. What's Happening!? Yes (see Colley High.) Jeffersons? Disputed but got a settlement.
But not All In The Family, One Day at a Time, Mary Hartman, Maude, A.k.a Pablo and CERTAINLY NOT Sanford and Son, or Sanford Arms, Grady or Sanford!
And Lear developed and/or produced the shows - he doesn't have "created by" on the vast majority.
You're right though - Norma Lear is a Jew.
13463052, I didnt say anything about the white shows|
Posted by legsdiamond, Fri Jun-24-22 07:49 AM
you are correct on Sanford and Son
but he didn’t envision Black people when recreating that show
13463034, Lear didn't steal anything|
Posted by jrocc, Thu Jun-23-22 07:39 PM
he gets the credit for producing these shows, not creating them. most of these shows already existing in the UK before they were remade in the States.
13463035, What ?|
Posted by Lurkmode, Thu Jun-23-22 07:56 PM
The Jeffersons and Good Times existed in the UK ? No
13463038, Lear is not credited as creator on either of these|
Posted by handle, Thu Jun-23-22 10:34 PM
>The Jeffersons and Good Times existed in the UK ? No
Created by Eric Monte and Mike Evans
Developed by Norman Lear
Developed by Norman Lear
13463047, You missed a reply|
Posted by Lurkmode, Fri Jun-24-22 06:43 AM
Lear was a thief
13463071, That link is weak|
Posted by handle, Fri Jun-24-22 10:17 AM
It's simply a restatement of what Eric Monte is saying, and some titles placed over it.
And her closing statement of "Hey, Norman Lear REFUSES to respond to us, so we'll never know how much he stole - but he certainly stole a lot that's for certain."
It's fucking weak, IMHO.
But they do point our Norman Lear is a Jew a couple of times. That's good reporting!!! (What do Jews know about living in a ghetto anyways? )
13463097, Your reply is weak|
Posted by Lurkmode, Fri Jun-24-22 11:58 AM
You jumped in the thread to cover for Lear as if he is your Father. You were quick to whitesplain something the op never brought up. You wasted no time excusing and justifying Lear's theft in another reply, but for some reason you went to sleep at the wheel when another poster started talking about the UK Jeffersons and Good Times.
Newsflash Jews can be called out. Keep the same energy for Eric Monte missing residuals and getting blacklisted.
13463098, Norma Lear is a Jew and I am white|
Posted by handle, Fri Jun-24-22 12:02 PM
Eric Monte MUST have been wronged!! A YouTube video with TITLES restating things he stated is proof.
EDIT; I'm white.
Norman lear is jewish.
13463108, You really like Lear|
Posted by Lurkmode, Fri Jun-24-22 12:19 PM
You going hard for him but still nothing about Eric Monte, John Amos fired, Esther Rolle demanding her character have a husband. I guess you believe everything is a lie if it comes from Blacks.
13463123, he made MAUDE!!!! |
Posted by legsdiamond, Fri Jun-24-22 12:54 PM
Posted by Lurkmode, Fri Jun-24-22 12:58 PM
13463206, Guess it's settled then.|
Posted by handle, Sun Jun-26-22 10:59 AM
>I guess you believe everything is a lie if it comes from Blacks.
Nope, just that the video is a regurgitation of the same stuff he's been peddling for decades. I remember this from the mid 2000s too. Now it's in a Youtube video and *you* believe every word of it....
AND if anyone disagrees it's because they're white.
Note: Eric Monte has also said he created "The Cosby Show." Believe that too?
I don't recall any of the other hundreds of people Lear has worked with accusing him of being a “a racist, a hypocrite, a thief, and a liar."
Weird that even John Amos hasn't mentioned that - especially in in the decades after? Where's the support from the black (or other) cast members for these accusations? Or other writers?
So Lear's got the entire world gassed up
- and I don't believe anything that black people say -
or Eric Monte might be a little angry and bitter that his 1970's success hasn't continued and it's because of a decades long campaign by the Norman Lear to fuck him.
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0599088/ <-Eric Monte
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005131/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1 <-Norman Lear
13463254, Nah you will keep defending racism|
Posted by Lurkmode, Sun Jun-26-22 06:29 PM
>Nope, just that the video is a regurgitation of the same stuff
>he's been peddling for decades. I remember this from the mid
>2000s too. Now it's in a Youtube video and *you* believe every
>word of it....
Your assumption, I never said I believe every word because it's in a Youtube video. The fact that you believe that and ran with it says a lot about you.
>AND if anyone disagrees it's because they're white.
Nope you didn't just disagree, you made excuses, deflected in an attempt to avoid the obvious, Lear/Hollywood racism.
>Note: Eric Monte has also said he created "The Cosby Show."
>Believe that too?
Did he say it in a Youtube video ?
"...still nothing about Eric Monte, John Amos fired, Esther Rolle demanding her character have a husband."
^^^^^^^If you are going to ask me questions make sure you address the issues I raised.
>I don't recall any of the other hundreds of people Lear has
>worked with accusing him of being a “a racist, a hypocrite,
>a thief, and a liar."
You don't recall anything about why John Amos got fired from the show, or Ether Rolle saying she wanted her character to have a husband and Father ? Eric Monte never "peddled" anything about that ? Yeah right
>Weird that even John Amos hasn't mentioned that - especially
>in in the decades after? Where's the support from the black
>(or other) cast members for these accusations? Or other
Do you know what blacklist is and how it works ?
>So Lear's got the entire world gassed up
>- and I don't believe anything that black people say -
>or Eric Monte might be a little angry and bitter that his
>1970's success hasn't continued and it's because of a decades
>long campaign by the Norman Lear to fuck him.
So Eric Monte is just a bitter Black man. Hollywood is not racist. Norman Lear is not racist. Norman Lear had all these shows but he never had any influence or power.
Eric Monte sued CBS, Tandem Productions, producers Norman Lear and Jerry Perenchio in 1977 because he was a little angry and bitter that his 1970's success didn't continue.
Eric Monte received a 1 million dollar settlement and a small percentage of the residuals from Good Times because he was a little angry and bitter that his success 1970's didn't continue.
When the opportunities to pitch new scripts dried up after the lawsuit it had nothing to do with Norman Lear and Hollywood blacklisting him, no it was the fact that he was a little angry and bitter that his 1970's success didn't continue.
13463273, gotta love how they protect their own|
Posted by legsdiamond, Mon Jun-27-22 07:13 AM
13463280, They don't stop won't stop going all out to protect them|
Posted by Lurkmode, Mon Jun-27-22 09:34 AM
Posted by handle, Mon Jun-27-22 10:34 AM
>You don't recall anything about why John Amos got fired from the show, >or Ether Rolle saying she wanted her character to have a husband and >Father ? Eric Monte never "peddled" anything about that ? Yeah right
Disagreements over the creative direction of the show? Yes.
I never took those FAMOUS disagreements to mean they accused Lear of being just a plain racist, liar, hypocrite and thief. I took that that they had different ideas of where the show was going.
I recall that Lear did place a working father into the show and did change scripts based on actor input - but ultimately had a different direction for the show than what some of the biggest stars on the show wanted.
They fired Amos and leaned HEAVILY into JJ - which made the show much more like Happy Days. And then Ester Rolle left for two seasons and CAME BACK.
(It's not like What's Happening was leaning into hard social issues over and over.)
So Good Times remains one of my favorite comedies of all time, because when it was at its best, it stood shoulder-to-shoulder with any of Norman Lear’s shows. You alluded earlier to some of the negative aspects of the show for you, but I’m wondering, overall, what your main recollection of the show is four decades later?
I remember — I couldn’t forget — the fact that Norman was probably the most courageous producer/writer/director that had come into television. I was very fortunate to get to work for him. We tackled subject matter that nobody touches today, things like seniors being forced to eat pet food because of financial constraints. J.J. getting shot by a gang member. You can’t open the paper today without seeing some subject we covered 40 years ago. I knew I was in a blessed situation. And also, I was carrying the weight of being the first black father of a complete family, and I carried that responsibility seriously. Maybe too much so. Norman thought I was taking on too much of a burden with it. But it was my responsibility. I knew that millions of black people were watching. I knew that my own father was watching. My own children were watching. And I was not going to portray something that was less than redeeming.
You were vocal when the show started moving in a different direction, playing to the popularity of Jimmie Walker’s character, J.J.
The writers began to lose focus on my other two children: Bern Nadette Stanis, who portrayed Thelma, and of course Ralph Carter, who portrayed Michael — the militant midget, we called him, because of his political convictions. With their aspirations to become a Supreme Court justice and a surgeon, I thought we could’ve gotten a great deal of mileage out of that. They chose to go for the obvious and the comedic. It started to dissipate into something I wasn’t terribly proud of. I thought there was a little too much buffoonery. And it wasn’t a matter of being jealous of . I love comedians; I love anyone who could make somebody laugh. But by the same token, I had these other two children in the family, and I felt it was doing a disservice to them and to the image of young people to say, “You guys don’t really matter. We’re more interested in seeing J.J. with a chicken hat on. At least that’s the way I saw it.
It’s what led to you getting fired from the show, right?
I was categorized by Norman as a “disruptive element.” When he made the call telling me I would no longer be with the show, he said that’s how I was described and assessed by the rest of the cast, and certainly the production company — a disruptive element. So they killed me off.
You weren’t alone in your concerns about the direction of the show, though. Based on everything I’ve read, Esther Rolle shared your sense of responsibility to put out the right image to viewers.
She’d come from very modest circumstances. I think Esther didn’t get her first pair of new shoes until she was 13 or 14 years old. She knew deprivation, and she knew hardship. So her reaction to playing that character was based in truth, as mine was. We always felt that we would be the ultimate litmus test for the veracity of the dialogue and the character situations. I remember having a with her, and telling her that we were going to have to stick together and make sure that what we felt about the characters, and their integrity as a family, became a bond with us. And she had no problem with that.
The show was built around a character she had first played on All in the Family, but from what I’ve read, she was very interested in having another strong adult character on the show to play opposite.
Were it not for Esther Rolle, quite frankly, I would not have gotten the job as James Evans. She insisted that she have a husband on the show. She did not want to perpetuate the negative stereotype of another matriarchal family. She told Norman, “I want a husband. I want a husband who works. And I don’t want him to be an alcoholic or druggie. I want a husband who’s going to be a family man.” And when I got to read for her, for Ms. Rolle and Norman, in his office, at the conclusion of the reading, she turned to Norman and said, “He’ll do just fine.” And that’s how I got the job as J.J.’s daddy. I thank Esther to this day for the opportunity.
If there was any upside to your exit from the show, it was that it gave Ms. Rolle one of her most iconic moments on the series— when she broke down in the kitchen after your death and screamed, “Damn, damn, damn!” I’ve always wandered if you watched that episode. It would’ve been strange to see your character mourned like that!
It’s a very rare experience. Not too many people get to see their own funeral. I saw the episode years and years ago. It’s still a mystery to me how my character died. It’s a matter of conjecture. Some people say he died on the Alaskan pipeline. Some say he died in a truck crash. All I know is that I died. And hopefully there was some insurance for the family.
Your departure from Good Times also made you available for Roots. It’s being remade for next year, and LeVar Burton is associated with it. Any feelings about whether this is a good idea?
All I know about it is that LeVar is onboard as a co–executive producer, and that Laurence Fishburne has been cast as the late Alex Haley. I’m curious about how they’re going to do the story this time. Are they going to do a replication of the original, or is it going to be a new script? I have faith it’s going to be done right, though, because it’s a Wolper project. Mark — David’s son — had the rare privilege of learning at his father’s knee what goes into a project to make it the resounding worldwide success that Roots became.
Ms. Rolle quit Good Times a year after you were fired, in part because she had many of the same concerns you did about the direction of the show. Did you ever talk to her about her decision to leave?
She never expressed to me personally why she left the show. But it was obvious. And from what I was able to infer from the articles I read, she left the show after I’d been killed off the show. She thought it was going downhill into an area of buffoonery and away from what her intentions were initially. But the show suffered so badly in the ratings, they brought her back for one more year, and then the show ultimately went off the air.
You’ve put the whole experience behind you and made up with Mr. Lear, right?
I certainly did. It was a matter of me maturing, and the posttraumatic stress syndrome I’d suffered as a result of playing football and boxing. Once I’d matured, I’d realized the mistakes I’d made in addressing my grievances about scripts. Everything to me at the time was confrontational. I was younger, I was angry, I was mad at the world. I wanted to right every wrong with every line. And they got tired of it. I told Norman to his face, when I was at an event honoring him, “I would have fired me, too.” Because life’s too short to put up with somebody who’s unhappy on a job where they’re making an incredible salary and receiving the acclamation of millions.
I didn't read "RACIST" in that I read "different" and even "wrong" but not racist. And never have a heard "lairs" and "thieves" from anyone other than Eric Monte.
Hey, you want to believe a Youtube video that's basically a transcript of Eric Monte saying that Norman Lear is lying thieving Jew who was destroyed his life because he was too black and talked too much - I don't see that from what I've heard.
BUT as LEGS points out: I'M WHITE.
I'm firing myself from this thread now.
Posted by Lurkmode, Mon Jun-27-22 02:20 PM
>Disagreements over the creative direction of the show? Yes.
You mean "too much buffoonery" don't whitewash it.
>I never took those FAMOUS disagreements to mean they accused
>Lear of being just a plain racist, liar, hypocrite and thief.
>I took that that they had different ideas of where the show
Rolle and Amos became openly critical – voicing their criticism in interviews with Ebony Magazine and TV Guide. Rolle’s comments about the JJ character in a 1975 Ebony article,
“He’s 18 and doesn’t work. He can’t read and write. He doesn’t think. The show didn’t start out to be that. Michael’s role of a bright, thinking child has been subtly reduced. Little by little – with the help of the artist – Jimmie Walker, I suppose they couldn’t do that to me – they have made him more stupid and enlarged the whole role. have been quietly slipped in on us through the character of the oldest child. I resent the imagery that says to black kids that you can make it by standing on the corner saying ‘Dy-no-mite!”
>I recall that Lear did place a working father into the show
>and did change scripts based on actor input - but ultimately
>had a different direction for the show than what some of the
>biggest stars on the show wanted.
>They fired Amos and leaned HEAVILY into JJ - which made the
>show much more like Happy Days. And then Ester Rolle left for
>two seasons and CAME BACK.
More like Happy Days lmao Esther Rolle left because of the buffoonery and the pay raise she didn't get.
>(It's not like What's Happening was leaning into hard social
>issues over and over.)
smh another deflection
>I didn't read "RACIST" in that I read "different" and even
>"wrong" but not racist. And never have a heard "lairs" and
>"thieves" from anyone other than Eric Monte.
You read excuses for racism not "different"
>Hey, you want to believe a Youtube video that's basically a
>transcript of Eric Monte saying that Norman Lear is lying
>thieving Jew who was destroyed his life because he was too
>black and talked too much - I don't see that from what I've
Norman Lear could tell you everything Eric Monte said is true and you still would go out of your way to excuse it.
>BUT as LEGS points out: I'M WHITE.
>I'm firing myself from this thread now.
No surprise take your ball and run Forest run.
13463044, SPLENDID times.|
Posted by FLUIDJ, Fri Jun-24-22 05:20 AM
Ain't we Blokes lucky we got em, aye?
"Get ready....for your blessing....."
"Bury me by my Grand-Grand and when you can come follow me"
Posted by My_SP1200_Broken_Again, Fri Jun-24-22 09:08 AM
13463091, I laffed... n/m|
Posted by Marbles, Fri Jun-24-22 11:37 AM
13463045, The Edwards.|
Posted by FLUIDJ, Fri Jun-24-22 05:23 AM
Moving on up...
To a deluxe flat in Kensington.
"Get ready....for your blessing....."
"Bury me by my Grand-Grand and when you can come follow me"
Posted by Lurkmode, Fri Jun-24-22 06:44 AM
Posted by legsdiamond, Fri Jun-24-22 07:44 AM
Posted by jrocc, Mon Jun-27-22 05:24 PM
both shows are spin-offs of All In The Family which is a remake of a British show. Good Times is actually a spin-off of Maude which itself is a spin-off of All In The Family.
i wasn't actually saying that Good Times and Jeffersons themselves were British shows. i was saying that most of what Norman Lear is famous for is either stuff that he didn't create or based on British shows. he's mostly known as a producer.
13463309, The Jeffersons were a spin off from All In The Family|
Posted by Adwhizz, Mon Jun-27-22 02:43 PM
I'm not going to discredit this guy's claims but Sitcoms being inspired by international shows and then localized with actors of different racial backgrounds isn't unheard of.
Sanford and Son was based on a British show called Steptoe and Son.
They even had an episode poking fun at this called "Steinberg and Son" where Fred was upset about a new TC show with a Jewish Cast that was very similar to him and Lamont's life