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Subject: "Do you agree with the word or title BLACK?" Previous topic | Next topic
allStah
Member since Jun 21st 2014
3096 posts
Sat Oct-10-20 05:06 PM

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"Do you agree with the word or title BLACK?"


          

I don’t. I’ve always considered myself to be African American. There is no country called Black or White, or Negro for that matter.

Tar is black. Graphite is black. By not recognizing the continent or land that I come from, is a disregard to my ancestors and bloodline.

In the 80s, black activists met at operation Push, and they all decided that our population would no longer go by the phrase Black American. This is how the phrase or title African American came about.

The term Black became popular in the late 60s and 70s, because our population no longer wanted to be called Colored or Negro Americans.

Every other population is recognized by the name of the country or region they come from: Chinese American, Latin American or Mexican
American, etc.

What is your take?




  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
Black was the first title we settled on for ourselves that was far
Oct 10th 2020
1
That term originated with Europeans . They created that term
Oct 10th 2020
3
      Dosen't matter. The word Black is not a slur, and doesn't sound like one...
Oct 10th 2020
7
           It Might Not Sound Like A Slur But It Is One
Oct 12th 2020
20
https://youtu.be/rZHwGnGrm_k
Oct 10th 2020
2
Unless we calling ourselves Black in an indigenous language of our
Oct 10th 2020
4
Dead Mike
Oct 10th 2020
5
Yes. Wholeheartedly.
Oct 10th 2020
6
In America, i’m Black. Outside the borders, I’ll be African American...
Oct 10th 2020
8
May I ask how you also feel about the Black American Descendents of
Oct 10th 2020
9
RE: May I ask how you also feel about the Black American Descendents of
Oct 10th 2020
10
Aight, Sports weekend is over.
Oct 13th 2020
31
      Ok, I hear ya. Fair points.
Oct 14th 2020
49
I like it more than African American
Oct 11th 2020
11
Black/AA...anything but ADOS (does any other group define themselves
Oct 12th 2020
12
I get what you are saying
Oct 12th 2020
13
Jews didn't rebrand themselves as descendants of the Holocausts, though
Oct 12th 2020
14
      Right. But would you agree tho that what the ADOS folks are after
Oct 12th 2020
15
      I think reparations based on failed polices of the 60s 90s is what we'll...
Oct 12th 2020
18
           Ok. I respect your opinion.
Oct 14th 2020
51
                The only way reparations will get any traction
Oct 15th 2020
56
                     I hear you. Fwiw I'm not a lawyer by any means (lol, I'm sure that's obv...
Oct 17th 2020
95
      What?
Oct 12th 2020
16
      Uh.. you sure about that?
Oct 12th 2020
17
           Jewish people are wanting to be called something else? link it up
Oct 12th 2020
19
                I said what I said
Oct 13th 2020
24
                     They've done what by action? Change their name? No? Okay then
Oct 13th 2020
25
                          Your words below
Oct 13th 2020
27
                               reminding folks (I was parroting your original language) is hardly actio...
Oct 13th 2020
28
                                    Nothing dishonest about my post or stance
Oct 13th 2020
30
                                         rebuffing Holocaust deniers is not some massive campaign to rebrand the ...
Oct 13th 2020
34
                                              Why do you keep bringing up deniers?
Oct 13th 2020
40
                                                   They're the reason why Jews have to remind folks about the Holocaust
Oct 13th 2020
48
                                                        It happened.. just like slavery happened
Oct 15th 2020
52
                                                             And yet the question that you can't answer "yes" too, did Jewish people
Oct 15th 2020
57
                                                                  I never said they changed their name
Oct 15th 2020
58
                                                                       Exactly, so if we want to remind folks about slavery, no need to change ...
Oct 15th 2020
62
                                                                            What's wrong with rebranding black identity?
Oct 15th 2020
63
                                                                                 I literally said we've rebranded. Obviously that isn't the issue. read f...
Oct 15th 2020
66
I think that's a pretty decontextualized way to look at it.
Oct 13th 2020
38
      ?
Oct 13th 2020
46
      We live in America. You are using that alt right bullshit argument
Oct 15th 2020
53
      Which begs the question
Oct 15th 2020
54
      But the country doesn't make these distinctions when violating folks rig...
Oct 15th 2020
65
           If your fam emigrated in the 60s, you chose this life
Oct 15th 2020
69
                Exactly.
Oct 15th 2020
74
                children of those immigrant parents had no say..they ass out too? Crazy
Oct 15th 2020
78
                     The reparations are for slavery. Full stop.
Oct 15th 2020
79
                     and you weren't enslaved. full stop. This is how reparations will play o...
Oct 15th 2020
81
                          And there's the white supremacist talking point
Oct 15th 2020
83
                          offering a better strategy isn't a white supremacist talking point.
Oct 16th 2020
85
                          This is some “conservative” white supremacist ass posting right here...
Oct 16th 2020
86
                               limiting the scope of reparation to shut out other Blacks is no differen...
Oct 16th 2020
87
                                    Nope. Sorry but you ain’t in the group.
Oct 16th 2020
90
                                         Don't worry. It's not up to you. The folks who it IS up to say no
Oct 16th 2020
92
                     yeah you lost credibility here
Oct 16th 2020
93
                          You are...who?
Oct 16th 2020
94
*identifying as Blizzack.* 'Africa' not even African, and it is
Oct 13th 2020
21
Black-ish
Oct 13th 2020
22
You would have known that information had it not been withheld
Oct 13th 2020
26
      As a creative I always laugh at the Black White color theory
Oct 13th 2020
29
      RE: As a creative I always laugh at the Black White color theory
Oct 13th 2020
32
           all of it is made up.
Oct 13th 2020
33
           @the end of the day, we don't own these label. You Black if the cop says...
Oct 13th 2020
35
           African doesn’t make sense, but black does?
Oct 13th 2020
36
                African made more sense when we got here.
Oct 13th 2020
37
                It less about what we are called?
Oct 13th 2020
42
                     Doesn’t he get to choose what label he wants?
Oct 13th 2020
43
                     He said it is less about what he is called.
Oct 13th 2020
44
                          It matters less what we are called vs how we are treated
Oct 13th 2020
45
                     how did you even get to that conclusion?
Oct 13th 2020
47
                Where in Africa? Can you land in Africa and have relatives meet you
Oct 13th 2020
41
           What about a sociological take on the "Black" and "White" labels?
Oct 15th 2020
55
      after the fact racial nomenclature always gonna be problematic.
Oct 19th 2020
96
To me it's an umbrella term
Oct 13th 2020
23
Right. It used to describe more than just African-Americans
Oct 13th 2020
39
I’m Black. Styles P made a song about it
Oct 14th 2020
50
I've been called "white" and an "agent on this board recenty
Oct 15th 2020
59
I’m not understanding your argument or the point that
Oct 15th 2020
60
      2 things
Oct 15th 2020
67
           My statement that all cultures have endured slavery
Oct 15th 2020
70
                Yeah...you need to go back to the drawing board fam
Oct 15th 2020
71
                     That’s what I meant. It was a typo.
Oct 15th 2020
72
                          You repeated the typo
Oct 15th 2020
73
                               It’s not specific.
Oct 15th 2020
75
                                    African isn't an ethnicity either
Oct 15th 2020
76
                                    African is definitely an ethnicity when tied with the nationality
Oct 15th 2020
84
                                    and btw, you repeated your typo again.
Oct 15th 2020
77
I use Caribbean American
Oct 15th 2020
61
Is this an ethnicity?
Oct 16th 2020
88
RE: I use Caribbean American
Oct 16th 2020
91
Im rolling with James Brown instead of the weirdos on okayplayer
Oct 15th 2020
64
I also want to push back on one of your initial assertions
Oct 15th 2020
68
Even more of a reason to identify with our true ethnicity.
Oct 15th 2020
80
      How does identifying as an ethnicity tangibly help black society?
Oct 15th 2020
82
im black, youre black, were black. outside of america we're AA
Oct 16th 2020
89

Teknontheou
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Sat Oct-10-20 05:16 PM

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1. "Black was the first title we settled on for ourselves that was far"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

away from any slur (Negro and Nigger were too close). For a long time it was the unofficial title of of the ethnicity of people from the United States who descended from Africans and had been enslaved on this soil. It worked just fine until large numbers of people from the diaspora started to come to the US in the 60s. I get the fact that we are not the only black people, but we are the only people who chose Black, for a time, as our demonym. I'm all for it.

  

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allStah
Member since Jun 21st 2014
3096 posts
Sat Oct-10-20 05:36 PM

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3. "That term originated with Europeans . They created that term "
In response to Reply # 1


          

to identify our culture or existence when we were slaves. It derives out of degradation, and we basically adopted the title out of habit/ignorance.

  

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Teknontheou
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Sat Oct-10-20 07:31 PM

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7. "Dosen't matter. The word Black is not a slur, and doesn't sound like one..."
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

to anyone's ears now.

  

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Dj Joey Joe
Member since Sep 01st 2007
13540 posts
Mon Oct-12-20 10:06 PM

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20. "It Might Not Sound Like A Slur But It Is One"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

Just like how african-americans use the word nigga, it's a slur but not one when african-americans use it as positive term with each other, or like how we use negative terms like "bad", "dope", "funk", "ill", "that's sick", "that's my shit", "chillin'", and so on; we use these terms in a positive way, lol.

Also how come the name african-american describes a whole continent but not a country, especially when the name Africa is named after a caucasian Yemenite chieftian named Africus?


https://DjJoeyJoe.bandcamp.com/album/Emerald-Dust

---------
"We in here talking about later career Prince records
& your fool ass is cruising around in a time machine
trying to collect props for a couple of sociopathic degenerates" - s.blak

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
67653 posts
Sat Oct-10-20 05:21 PM

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2. "https://youtu.be/rZHwGnGrm_k"
In response to Reply # 0


          

https://youtu.be/rZHwGnGrm_k

I’m Black

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
15510 posts
Sat Oct-10-20 06:34 PM

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4. "Unless we calling ourselves Black in an indigenous language of our"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Origin like Kemmenu(kemetic)

NO!

Black was given to us by frivolous, childish, greedy, devilish, object oriented Eurasians to be the antithesis to their mythical whiteness(pinkness) in their global caste system of imperialism and exploitation.

It shows no cosmic or creation story origin, no land origin, etc etc.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

  

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MEAT
Member since Feb 08th 2008
20059 posts
Sat Oct-10-20 06:49 PM

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5. "Dead Mike"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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FLUIDJ
Member since Sep 18th 2002
42887 posts
Sat Oct-10-20 07:31 PM

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6. "Yes. Wholeheartedly. "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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FLUIDJ
Member since Sep 18th 2002
42887 posts
Sat Oct-10-20 07:39 PM

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8. "In America, i’m Black. Outside the borders, I’ll be African American..."
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Oct-10-20 07:44 PM by FLUIDJ

  

          

If you ask me my race, it’s black.

Simple really. Don’t overthink it.
Just stay black. Be Black. Represent African American. And be proud.


"Get ready....for your blessing....."
"Bury me by my Grand-Grand and when you can come follow me"

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
1578 posts
Sat Oct-10-20 08:03 PM

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9. "May I ask how you also feel about the Black American Descendents of"
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Oct-10-20 08:03 PM by kfine

          

US Slavery/ Black ADOS/ Black American DOS title(s)?


Disclaimer: I'm pretty open about being lowercase black/daughter of immigrants (for lack of a better term, literally) and hesitated about responding... but I do use the term Black American and/or Black ADOS pretty frequently in my posts here (in part because one or more of these terms are what the Black Americans in my life strongly prefer to be called), and would hate for anyone to misconstrue or feel offended by my doing so. I do have my own views on all this (and, tbf, think the ADOS folks' quantitative argument on this issue is pretty airtight), but I'll only engage further if it's cool. I'm asking first and foremost to learn.



>I’ve always considered myself to be African
>American. There is no country called Black or White, or Negro
>for that matter.
>
>Tar is black. Graphite is black. By not recognizing the
>continent or land that I come from, is a disregard to my
>ancestors and bloodline.
>
>In the 80s, black activists met at operation Push, and they
>all decided that our population would no longer go by the
>phrase Black American. This is how the phrase or title African
>American came about.
>
>The term Black became popular in the late 60s and 70s, because
>our population no longer wanted to be called Colored or Negro
>Americans.
>
>Every other population is recognized by the name of the
>country or region they come from: Chinese American, Latin
>American or Mexican
>American, etc.
>

  

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allStah
Member since Jun 21st 2014
3096 posts
Sat Oct-10-20 09:08 PM

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10. "RE: May I ask how you also feel about the Black American Descendents of"
In response to Reply # 9


          

I’ll follow up tomorrow. Caught up in sports at the moment. So I don’t want to treat your post like a magazine.

  

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allStah
Member since Jun 21st 2014
3096 posts
Tue Oct-13-20 11:51 AM

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31. "Aight, Sports weekend is over."
In response to Reply # 9


          

I don’t concur with ADOS, for the simple fact that no other culture describes themselves as descendants of slavery. It’s not a true identity. Slavery is a tool and a byproduct of war. When people are captured or conquered, they are basically war captives, and are either killed, enslaved or traded to be enslaved.

And every culture on earth has been through slavery, some cultures longer then others.

During the Shang dynasty, 5 percent of China was enslaved. That was for like 500 years. The Arabian slave trade existed for 7 centuries. There was a Native American slave trade. Incas, Myans, Aztecs all had slaves. Aztecs used their slaves for human sacrifice. And we all know about the Holocaust

All of those forms of slavery were unique in their on way, but slavery is slavery. However, descendants of those cultures are not identifying themselves as descendants of those slaveries. That is a dark history, that degraded their true existence. They recognized it and got compensation or reparations for it, but they didn’t and don’t identify themselves as such.

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
1578 posts
Wed Oct-14-20 07:40 PM

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49. "Ok, I hear ya. Fair points."
In response to Reply # 31


          


>They recognized it and got compensation or reparations for it,
>but they didn’t and don’t identify themselves as such.
>

^I think they do in the transitional justice process tho, no? I'd be curious to know whether you too share Nonaime's aversion to doing so even in legal contexts then, where the trauma serves to define a legal/protected class, describe injuries and damages, justify reparations sought, etc.

  

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Boogie Stimuli
Member since Sep 24th 2010
13093 posts
Sun Oct-11-20 07:49 PM

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11. "I like it more than African American"
In response to Reply # 0


          

My ancestors could've been indigenous or from somewhere else for all I know.


>I don’t. I’ve always considered myself to be African
>American. There is no country called Black or White, or Negro
>for that matter.



There's no country called Africa or African either.



>Tar is black. Graphite is black.



So are the cosmos.



>By not recognizing the
>continent or land that I come from, is a disregard to my
>ancestors and bloodline.




Are you doing country or continent? You said country first, now you're saying continent. That said, do you know what country in Africa you hail from? People born on the continent tend to refer to themselves by the country they come from.



>In the 80s, black activists met at operation Push, and they
>all decided that our population would no longer go by the
>phrase Black American. This is how the phrase or title African
>American came about.
>
>The term Black became popular in the late 60s and 70s, because
>our population no longer wanted to be called Colored or Negro
>Americans.



And in 2016 or so, many began referring to themselves as ADOS for political reasons. We all have the freedom to self-identify. Given our unique history, that can only be respected.




>Every other population is recognized by the name of the
>country or region they come from: Chinese American, Latin
>American or Mexican
>American, etc.
>
>What is your take?



My take on that last part is every other population has a very different history from us. They usually aren't anymore than 3 generations removed from a homeland that they can visit and be welcomed in by relatives with whom they are in contact with or at least know of them. That ain't us, so it's a bad comparison imo.


~
~
~
~
~
"Until you get outta my way, I don't wanna hear what you say aye aye"

  

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nonaime
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Mon Oct-12-20 04:10 AM

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12. "Black/AA...anything but ADOS (does any other group define themselves"
In response to Reply # 0


          

by the worst thing that has happened to them?)

~~~~~~~~
A bad Samaritan averaging above average men (c) DOOM

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
67653 posts
Mon Oct-12-20 05:47 AM

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13. "I get what you are saying"
In response to Reply # 12


          

but jewish people have done a pretty good job making the Holocaust something you will never forget.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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nonaime
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Mon Oct-12-20 08:10 AM

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14. "Jews didn't rebrand themselves as descendants of the Holocausts, though"
In response to Reply # 13


          

Even as they, rightfully, make sure that folks don't forget what was done to them. We should certainly take the same stance with respect to our atrocities...but to use that to define who and who isn't Black in THIS country? I'll pass.

~~~~~~~~
A bad Samaritan averaging above average men (c) DOOM

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
1578 posts
Mon Oct-12-20 11:59 AM

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15. "Right. But would you agree tho that what the ADOS folks are after "
In response to Reply # 14
Mon Oct-12-20 12:00 PM by kfine

          

seems to be restitution, not just branding?? As in, the branding is a means to a desired end: reparations.

For example, that reparations task force bill (AB 3121) just signed into law in California a few weeks ago (due in part to tireless advocacy from ADOS California). The language "Special Consideration for African Americans Who are Descendants of Persons Enslaved in the United States" is used multiple times in the law:

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201920200AB3121

Which, quantitatively, is kind of a critical distinction to make no? Because at this point in time in America, there *are* both naturalized and native-born Black "African" descended people who are also "Americans" who are "Descendants of Persons Enslaved", but who are *not* "African Americans Who are Descendants of Persons Enslaved in the United States." If or when reparations are administered by any gov on US soil, there will need to be some form of indisputable classification - some box that can be checked by Black American DOS and Black American DOS only - to ensure provisions are correctly formulated, designated, and delivered to the rightful beneficiaries.

Does your issue with DOS labelling extend even to legal contexts, like pursuit of class action?

  

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nonaime
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Mon Oct-12-20 08:17 PM

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18. "I think reparations based on failed polices of the 60s 90s is what we'll..."
In response to Reply # 15


          


I don't see how you can ignore immigrants who were just as impacted by redlining, aggressive policing (see: A. Diallo) etc just because they weren't also victims of slavery. And I am certain that this will be a conclusion drawn by any taskforce.

If Black/Brown folks get a check cut in Cali, it'll because of something like the rampart scandal in LA that affected Black and Brown folks. How would you prove that so called ADOS were more impacted than non ADOS?

There's no need to rebrand ourselves as ADOS.

~~~~~~~~
A bad Samaritan averaging above average men (c) DOOM

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
1578 posts
Wed Oct-14-20 08:54 PM

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51. "Ok. I respect your opinion."
In response to Reply # 18


          

Tbf, there's a more exclusive focus on slavery in the federal bill (HR40 https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/40/text), which kind of addresses your critique a bit better. You're probably right about the broad scope of AB 3121 being problematic; I'm not well-versed in Californian history.


But since you bring up incorporating black immigrants re: reparations, being one myself let me just ask: say HR40 was revised (as I've seen some calls for) to examine Black American justice claims from the founding of the republic to the passage of the civil rights act i.e. the slavery and jim crow eras (which, despite the broader scope of AB 3121 and narrower scope of HR40, seem to be the eras most frequently addressed in the policy dialogue on this issue)... The proportion of free black immigrants impacted during this period is microscopic, no?? Or at least, certainly not large enough to invalidate reparations altogether?

Because I've got to say: I truly see zero reason to center or include us in reparations for Black Americans whatsoever. (This isn't to say I disagree black immigrants suffer in a racist society; we absolutely do. But off top there's at least 4 parameters I think disqualify us completely).

I feel like humane immigration reforms would be more transformational for us than reparations.




>
>I don't see how you can ignore immigrants who were just as
>impacted by redlining, aggressive policing (see: A. Diallo)
>etc just because they weren't also victims of slavery.

How would you prove that so called ADOS were
>more impacted than non ADOS?
>
>There's no need to rebrand ourselves as ADOS.

  

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nonaime
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Thu Oct-15-20 10:11 AM

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56. "The only way reparations will get any traction"
In response to Reply # 51


          

is to broaden the scope. It can’t be just for injustices during slavery. As you know, this reparations bill has been introduced for quite some time now. Until we have true equal protection under the law, as guaranteed by the 14th amendment, we shouldn't make the Civil Rights era as the endpoint either. That’s why my opinion is that Black immigrants are part of the fight, too.

If you and I are in the same situation that’s about to go south because of our skin color...we Black. All this “b” vs “B” or ADOS vs non is silly noise. This country doesn’t split hairs about any of that when it comes to how it is currently not living up to its own ideals with respect to race.

>there's at least 4 parameters I think disqualify us completely).

What are those, if you don't mind answering?

~~~~~~~~
A bad Samaritan averaging above average men (c) DOOM

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
1578 posts
Sat Oct-17-20 09:32 AM

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95. "I hear you. Fwiw I'm not a lawyer by any means (lol, I'm sure that's obv..."
In response to Reply # 56
Sat Oct-17-20 09:34 AM by kfine

          

but I imagine *clearly* defining the class, injuries, and restitution sought might be especially important when seeking damages from a gov, no?

Like, if class action for reparations turned into this broad sweeping referendum on the general impact of racism as you suggest... wouldn't it be tougher for a task force to even begin to scratch the surface?? Not to mention a case for why *only* Black people should receive reparations v. other groups likely to claim a history of discrimination (which, tbf, seems partly your point).

On the other hand, a tighter scope might at least lead to a stronger evidentiary base... right? For example, say a class is specified as all Africans enslaved on US soil and their descendants; and a time period is specified as say, 1776-1968 (*to at least restrict to slavery and jim crow under the US gov and not Crowns of former colonies). And when assessing damages, a task force can point to actual proclamations or federal and state legislation eg. the order to appropriate and distribute assets to the formerly enslaved that was later scrapped; or specific benefits denied to the formerly enslaved and their descendants like wages, pensions, disability income, GI bill provisions, farm assistance, etc; and other relevant damages shared by class members eg. excess injuries and mortality due to terrorist and/or sexual violence, and destruction of property, businesses, neighborhoods and so on.

Isn't part of the goal in this sort of proceeding to not only justify a settlement, but demonstrate that the atrocities and disposession suffered during slavery and jim crow were so severe that the effects persist inter-generationally to current and future descendants of those enslaved? Or do you feel that in addition to broadening class membership, reparations should serve a different purpose altogether? like a sort of reset on racism? honest question


> That’s why my opinion is that Black immigrants are part of
>the fight, too.
>


I understand. We can be allies without being beneficiaries too tho.


>>there's at least 4 parameters I think disqualify us
>completely).
>
>What are those, if you don't mind answering?


I feel like I've been so long-winded already lol, but sure:

*proportionality - historically, black immigrants have accounted for such a small proportion of African-Americans compared to Black Americans. Statutory quotas enacted in the early 1900s capped (legal) immigration flow to like 2-3% the population size of whatever foreign-born population already resident in the US the immigrant would belong to (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_immigration_to_the_United_States#Quotas_enacted_between_1921_and_1924) and remained in effect until their repeal in the '65 INA. The vast majority of black immigrant lineages in the US began in the last few decades (https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/24/key-facts-about-black-immigrants-in-the-u-s/ft_18-01-24_blackimmigrants_us_pop/) and we account for only ~10% of all African-Americans in the US (https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/24/key-facts-about-black-immigrants-in-the-u-s/).

*relative exposure (both length and severity) - since most black immigrant lineages in the US are only a few decades old (and at most a few generations deep), we've endured much less cumulative exposure to racism in the US than Black American DOS lineages. The timescales (decades v. centuries) and number of generations affected (1-3 v. at least 10+) differ by an order of magnitude. Additionally, and it may be controversial to acknowledge this but, the severity of racism experienced by black immigrants is much different since most of us arrived after the civil rights era, when numerous statutory protections and enforcement measures became law (tho I concede these protections obv haven't eradicated racism altogether for either group).

*relative risk - even if we focused exclusively on higher order effects of institutionalized racism like mass incarceration, poverty, etc, black immigrants account for a smaller proportion of the African-Americans in these populations. For example, incarceration rates for black immigrants (incl. undocumented immigrant detention) has historically been much lower than those of native-born Black people (www.nber.org/papers/w13229.pdf#page=36). Furthermore, almost 30% of Black Americans live below the poverty line (higher than all other immigrant groups) in contrast to 20% of black immigrants (https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2015/04/ST_2015-04-09_black-immigrants-15.png) which, given that we account for ~10% of all African-Americans in the US, translates to just a 2% chance that an African-American one encounters will be a black immigrant living in poverty (*We definitely exist tho, make no mistake. My family experienced a number of financial blows growing up).

*outcomes - if we look at key social and economic development domains like health, education, and income, Black Americans are in far greater need of investment than black immigrants. Post-secondary educational attainment is almost 10% lower among Black Americans than black immigrants, for example, and almost half that of African immigrant post-secondary educational attainment specifically (https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/04/09/a-rising-share-of-the-u-s-black-population-is-foreign-born/st_2015-04-09_black-immigrants-12/). Median annual household income is also ~10k higher among black immigrants (https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/04/09/a-rising-share-of-the-u-s-black-population-is-foreign-born/st_2015-04-09_black-immigrants-13/).

I'm sure this isn't exhaustive and there are probably other relevant contrasts to draw, but my argument basically boils down to: Why should black immigrants share membership with Black Americans in a legal and/or protected class seeking reparations when a) we've historically been and continue to be such a small proportion of Black African-descended people in the US and are mostly recent arrivals; b) the nature of any racism we've experienced in the US is fundamentally different than the atrocities endured during Slavery and Jim Crow, due in part to statutory protections that weren't available to those suffering then; and c) we're in better shape across many of the socio-economic domains reparations are being sought to improve? It's also probably worth noting that there doesn't seem to be a huge clamor for reparations among black immigrants (or at least, I've not heard of any immigrant groups demanding reparations from the US gov yet).

I do get the tension between the pan-african and ADOS camps on this issue. But tbh, I feel like pan-african sentiment underpins my perspective as well. Because aside from reparations simply being the ethical thing to do, it's almost *because* I see Black Americans as my fellow African-descended brothers and sisters that I hope yall recieve the justice and restitution you deserve. Not unlike how I'd feel if an immediate family member of mine was abducted, experienced unconscionable trauma, and we later reconnected after they regained freedom. Of course I also experience pain in the situation, but how or why would I even compare??? My family member hasn't even received the care they need yet. So yes I agree black immigrants also contend with racism, but I can't emphasize enough how extremely ok it is to focus exclusively on the families centuries deep in the shit first.

  

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MEAT
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16. "What?"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

------
“There is no fate that cannot be surmounted by scorn.” -Albert Camus

  

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legsdiamond
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17. "Uh.. you sure about that? "
In response to Reply # 14


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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nonaime
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19. "Jewish people are wanting to be called something else? link it up"
In response to Reply # 17


          

~~~~~~~~
A bad Samaritan averaging above average men (c) DOOM

  

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legsdiamond
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24. "I said what I said"
In response to Reply # 19


          


I never said they did it by name.. they’ve done it by
action. 

They have been extremely good at making sure we never forget. 

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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nonaime
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25. "They've done what by action? Change their name? No? Okay then"
In response to Reply # 24


          

>I never said they did it by name.. they’ve done it by
>action. 

What action? 

>
>They have been extremely good at making sure we never
forget.

Are they dropping leaflets by your house or something? Stop
denying the Holocaust and you won't have that problem, I
guess. They've been good at rebutting folks who deny the
Holocaust happened. Otherwise, what are you talking about? 

~~~~~~~~
A bad Samaritan averaging above average men (c) DOOM

  

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legsdiamond
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27. "Your words below"
In response to Reply # 25


          

	
Even as they, rightfully, make sure that folks don't forget
what was done to them. 

That’s the action I’m talking about. All that denier stuff
you added just shows you are in your feels. 

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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nonaime
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28. "reminding folks (I was parroting your original language) is hardly actio..."
In response to Reply # 27
Tue Oct-13-20 11:32 AM by nonaime

          

leading to a rebranding of Jewish identity. I specifically
said "Jews didn't rebrand themselves" in the same
post.

That's what we're talking about. and just shows that you can't
have an honest discussion.

~~~~~~~~
A bad Samaritan averaging above average men (c) DOOM

  

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legsdiamond
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30. "Nothing dishonest about my post or stance"
In response to Reply # 28


          

Try telling someone Jewish that the Holocaust is in the past
or something they should get over and see how that works for
you. 

How often do we hear “that’s how it started with the
Jews” when discussing the media, censorship, gun rights,
etc.. they have done an incredible job branding the Holocaust.


But WE need to get over the past, slavery was a long time ago,
etc. 

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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nonaime
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34. "rebuffing Holocaust deniers is not some massive campaign to rebrand the ..."
In response to Reply # 30


          

>Try telling someone Jewish that the Holocaust is in the
past
>or something they should get over and see how that works
for
>you. 

Try telling any person/group that the horrible thing that they
went through should be gotten over and see how it goes. And it
wouldn't mean that the person/group is rebranding themselves
either.

If people would stop denying that the Holocaust happened,
Jewish people wouldn't be put in a position to have to remind
folks...this isn't a rebranding attempt.

>But WE need to get over the past, slavery was a long time
ago,
>etc. 

Yet we have the nmaahc, there seems to be a slavery/struggle
themed movie/TV series that comes out every other year...and I
would hope that folks don't see this as an attempt to tie our
identity to only being about suffering, even as we never
forget the suffering that we went through. Which was my
original point about not wanting to be called ADOS.

~~~~~~~~
A bad Samaritan averaging above average men (c) DOOM

  

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legsdiamond
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40. "Why do you keep bringing up deniers? "
In response to Reply # 34


          

It has nothing to do with denying it. 

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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nonaime
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48. "They're the reason why Jews have to remind folks about the Holocaust"
In response to Reply # 40
Tue Oct-13-20 04:52 PM by nonaime

          

And as long as you keep talking about Jewish folks are trying
to rebrand themselves, I'll be here.

~~~~~~~~
A bad Samaritan averaging above average men (c) DOOM

  

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legsdiamond
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52. "It happened.. just like slavery happened"
In response to Reply # 48


          

ADOS isn’t rebranding, it’s part of our history just like
the Holocaust happens to the Jews. 

Did your people immigrate here or were they descendants of
slaves? 



****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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nonaime
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57. "And yet the question that you can't answer "yes" too, did Jewish people"
In response to Reply # 52
Thu Oct-15-20 10:45 AM by nonaime

          

change their name. But this was never meant to be a drawn out
discussion about something that Jewish people didn't do.

We as a group have gone through several rebrands: Black – we
were letting folks know that we were rejecting the massa’s
label of colored / negro; 
African American – we were letting folks know that we were
robbed of our roots...but we know where those roots are.

And now ADOS...African Descendants of Slaves. REBRAND – we
don’t want to be lumped in with the more inclusive people of
color. And we want folks to know that we Blacks are different
than you other b/Blacks. So when these reparation checks come
in...don’t have your hands out. 
Everyone: How are y’all different? Cuz you all look Black to
me. 
People who want to be called ADOS: Ummm...uhhhh...cause our
great great great great great...great granddaddy were enslaved
and that makes us different. 

>Did your people immigrate here or were they descendants of
slaves? 

Yes to both and against their wills in both cases.  Even
though both are true and are both part of history, being
forced to do something against my will isn't how I would
describe myself...but hey...that's just me.

~~~~~~~~
A bad Samaritan averaging above average men (c) DOOM

  

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legsdiamond
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58. "I never said they changed their name"
In response to Reply # 57


          

so why do you keep asking me that question? 

I said they did a great job reminding people of their hardship
and atrocities in regards to the worst thing that ever
happened to them. 



****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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nonaime
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62. "Exactly, so if we want to remind folks about slavery, no need to change ..."
In response to Reply # 58
Thu Oct-15-20 11:51 AM by nonaime

          

Folks who want to rename themselves as ADOS want to rebrand
the Black identity. There is no other reason for the name
change. 

~~~~~~~~
A bad Samaritan averaging above average men (c) DOOM

  

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CIPHA
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63. "What's wrong with rebranding black identity?"
In response to Reply # 62


  

          

Nigger, nigga, colored, negro, black, afro American, African
American. It's been done before. 

Everybody else gets to use specific language to identify
themselves. Have you asked by the LGBTQ community needs an
identifier for every specific iteration of sexual and gender
identity/orientation?

_____________________________________

"I heard em' say I was a conscious rapper/ but Im a monster when I have to slap the shit out of a nonsense actor" -Talib Kweli, Good To You

  

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nonaime
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66. "I literally said we've rebranded. Obviously that isn't the issue. read f..."
In response to Reply # 63
Thu Oct-15-20 12:30 PM by nonaime

          

.

~~~~~~~~
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Buddy_Gilapagos
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38. "I think that's a pretty decontextualized way to look at it. "
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

The reason we use any of these terms are to differentiate ourselves from others.

I am not a fan of the ADOS movement but I get why its important for them in a reparations conversation to distinguish Africans who were never descendent of slavery from Africans who were.

It has little to do with defining a people by their worst atrocities that happened to them or more to do with who is entitled to reparations and not.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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allStah
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46. "?"
In response to Reply # 38


          

You do know slavery comes out of tribalism, right?
You do know African tribes had slaves and sold those slaves to Europeans and Arabian right?

There is no distinction...There have been slaves or slavery throughout the world through the existence of mankind.

  

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legsdiamond
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53. "We live in America. You are using that alt right bullshit argument"
In response to Reply # 46


          

What ADOS cares about is reparations from America for the crimes committed IN America. What happened in Africa, is for Africans to figure out. What happened in South America is for South Americans to figure out.

No other race has to deal with this bullshit oppression olympics and it’s sad to hear our own people (if your Black) say stuff like that.

“You weren’t the first race to be slaughtered or oppressed.. y’all will be alright”

Same people saying this shit to us are quick af to cape for other races. All that energy but when we start talking about our shit them people are exhausted and want to move on.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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legsdiamond
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54. "Which begs the question "
In response to Reply # 38


          

How many people against ADOS are actually descendants of slaves? What’s the reason they don’t approve of reparations for ADOS? Usually it’s financial.

a. They wouldn’t receive a check
b. Their kids or SO wouldn’t receive a full check due to the obvious.
c. They are already financially secure due to their “bootstraps”






****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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nonaime
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65. "But the country doesn't make these distinctions when violating folks rig..."
In response to Reply # 38


          

>It has little to do with defining a people by their worst
>atrocities that happened to them or more to do with who is
>entitled to reparations and not.

If my family immigrated to this country in the 60s (or even now) and this country started cutting checks (to be quite frank...I don't think this is how any reparations would be handled...so it's really a moot point). But anyway, if this country started cutting checks and told me that, in spite of all the crap that my family has gone through since the 60s, that we weren't entitled to anything since our family was never enslaved. I would file a lawsuit so quick asking the government to prove that the current plight of Black people is directly tied to slavery and not to failed modern/current policies (e.g.; war on drugs, stop and frisk, etc).

Or supposed, oth, that Reconstruction was allowed to run its course...13th, 14th and 15th amendments were take seriously. No jim crow. No need for Brown vs Board of Education. We're fully integrated into society just like the Irish. (no...they weren't enslaved or treated as we were).

Would we be asking for reparations due to slavery if we were well off and treated equally now?

I don't think we would. Just like the Irish and Chinese aren't (both were treated poorly by this country...back then).

The only reason we can talk about reparations now is that this country hasn't fulfilled its promises to Black folks...all Black folks. Current policies,rooted in slavery for sure, but current policies nonetheless are the cause of our ills.

~~~~~~~~
A bad Samaritan averaging above average men (c) DOOM

  

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CIPHA
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69. "If your fam emigrated in the 60s, you chose this life"
In response to Reply # 65


  

          

You don't get to lecture the people who were brought here involuntarily.

_____________________________________

"I heard em' say I was a conscious rapper/ but Im a monster when I have to slap the shit out of a nonsense actor" -Talib Kweli, Good To You

  

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legsdiamond
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74. "Exactly. "
In response to Reply # 69


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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nonaime
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78. "children of those immigrant parents had no say..they ass out too? Crazy"
In response to Reply # 69


          

~~~~~~~~
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CIPHA
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79. "The reparations are for slavery. Full stop."
In response to Reply # 78


  

          

We don't even need to get into the rest. Slavery was plenty enough.

No need to keep moving the goalposts.

_____________________________________

"I heard em' say I was a conscious rapper/ but Im a monster when I have to slap the shit out of a nonsense actor" -Talib Kweli, Good To You

  

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nonaime
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81. "and you weren't enslaved. full stop. This is how reparations will play o..."
In response to Reply # 79


          

Money will be given to fund Black institutions, not individuals, that were impacted by slavery. And that will be where the bulk of the money goes.

If there are any checks issued to individuals, those will be for wrongs individuals suffered due to policies that *they* endured...unless it can be proven that a parent's hardship affected the child (and you can certainly make this case). But that hardship xfer isn't going to be traced all the way back to slavery.

~~~~~~~~
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CIPHA
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83. "And there's the white supremacist talking point"
In response to Reply # 81


  

          

"You weren't enslaved and I didn't enslave you" so all of that is over with.

I see yall.

_____________________________________

"I heard em' say I was a conscious rapper/ but Im a monster when I have to slap the shit out of a nonsense actor" -Talib Kweli, Good To You

  

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nonaime
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85. "offering a better strategy isn't a white supremacist talking point."
In response to Reply # 83


          

Reparations based on current policy failures is the better strategy. It's something that happens all the time; people who are directly impacted by bad policy get checks: farmers, Japanese, etc, etc...they don't cut checks directly to the third, fourth and fifth generation descendants of impacted folks. When has that ever happened?

But hey, y'all keep pushing a strategy that isn't working...pretty soon it'll be too late to get reparations based of civil rights era issues too.

~~~~~~~~
A bad Samaritan averaging above average men (c) DOOM

  

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legsdiamond
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86. "This is some “conservative” white supremacist ass posting right here..."
In response to Reply # 81


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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nonaime
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87. "limiting the scope of reparation to shut out other Blacks is no differen..."
In response to Reply # 86


          

at least the strategy I'm suggesting would actually work.

~~~~~~~~
A bad Samaritan averaging above average men (c) DOOM

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Fri Oct-16-20 10:33 AM

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90. "Nope. Sorry but you ain’t in the group. "
In response to Reply # 87


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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nonaime
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92. "Don't worry. It's not up to you. The folks who it IS up to say no "
In response to Reply # 90
Fri Oct-16-20 12:34 PM by nonaime

          

to slavery...and have been saying that for the past 30 odd years. but y'all can keep trying this draw up the middle. Good luck!

~~~~~~~~
A bad Samaritan averaging above average men (c) DOOM

  

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Brotha Sun
Member since Dec 31st 2009
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Fri Oct-16-20 12:42 PM

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93. "yeah you lost credibility here "
In response to Reply # 78


          

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

  

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nonaime
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94. "You are...who? "
In response to Reply # 93


          

~~~~~~~~
A bad Samaritan averaging above average men (c) DOOM

  

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poetx
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21. "*identifying as Blizzack.* 'Africa' not even African, and it is "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

non-specific.

If I knew specifically that I was Igbo, or Yoruba, Wolof, any of the other myriad people groups, i'd rep that.

If I knew that i came from a particular geographic area, i'd rep that.

what's the actual etymology of Alkebulan?

KMT is land of the Blacks.

nah. frfr, i'm good on what people wanna call themselves. the claiming of 'Africa' is similar to the claiming and repping of 'Black' as an empowering, de-stigmatizing move.

i feel like Black do what it need to do and is contextually expansive and specific (can reference the entire diaspora or refer to the af-am experience).


peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
I'm an advocate for working smarter, not harder. If you just
focus on working hard you end up making someone else rich and
not having much to show for it. (c) mad

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Tue Oct-13-20 08:49 AM

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22. "Black-ish "
In response to Reply # 21


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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allStah
Member since Jun 21st 2014
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Tue Oct-13-20 10:55 AM

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26. "You would have known that information had it not been withheld "
In response to Reply # 21
Tue Oct-13-20 11:07 AM by allStah

          

from you. The name of the region and country that you come from was suppressed, and you were re-identified as Negra or Black, to be presented as an existence that was less than European Caucasians.

Black isn’t even a color. It is the non-existence of color. Black absorbs all of light wavelengths and reflects nothing but darkness. White reflects all of light, which is why white is perceived. It is basically describing something that is nothing, or something that is non-existent.

You have African-Americans who don’t even know that. They are just repeating what they have learned, and choosing to accept it, or rebrand it as some type of honorable identity.

Africa exists, and my blood descends from it. My people descend from it, so that must be reflected in my identity.




  

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legsdiamond
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29. "As a creative I always laugh at the Black White color theory"
In response to Reply # 26


          


****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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allStah
Member since Jun 21st 2014
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Tue Oct-13-20 12:01 PM

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32. "RE: As a creative I always laugh at the Black White color theory"
In response to Reply # 29


          

It’s not a theory. It’s actual color science . Black doesn’t reflect light. It absorbs all of light, which is why you get hotter when wearing black material.

So the identification with the word black to reflect a skin color is incorrect,
because black isn’t even a color. Black and white are representations of light wavelengths being absorbed or reflected.

Why accept a name that we didn’t create, and was used to degrade us , and the
term isn’t a reflection of color?

It’s truly illogical.

  

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tariqhu
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33. "all of it is made up."
In response to Reply # 32


          

>It’s not a theory. It’s actual color science . Black
>doesn’t reflect light. It absorbs all of light, which is why
>you get hotter when wearing black material.
>
>So the identification with the word black to reflect a skin
>color is incorrect,
>because black isn’t even a color. Black and white are
>representations of light wavelengths being absorbed or
>reflected.
>
>Why accept a name that we didn’t create, and was used to
>degrade us , and the
>term isn’t a reflection of color?
>
>It’s truly illogical.

science isn't the determining factor in what we're called or been called previously. neither is science the reason for others being called white.

these are societal descriptions meant to separate and oppress. we all know that. so the color vs non-color debate doesn't fit this discussion since that's science issue. not a social or political issue.

I prefer Black to AA. AA never made sense to me. None of the terms really work, but to me, Black designates american born black people with some similarities in experience. but again, nothing really fits the whole body of black people.

Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

  

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nonaime
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35. "@the end of the day, we don't own these label. You Black if the cop says..."
In response to Reply # 33
Tue Oct-13-20 12:25 PM by nonaime

          

.

~~~~~~~~
A bad Samaritan averaging above average men (c) DOOM

  

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allStah
Member since Jun 21st 2014
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36. "African doesn’t make sense, but black does?"
In response to Reply # 33


          

Where do you think you descend from?

After the Civil War, some freed African American slaves and Africans of the Caribbean went back to Africa, re-settled and created the country Liberia.

There is nothing unusual about the truth of our identity or where we come from. ....if you chose not to accept it or associate with it , then that is on you.

You know where the word black comes from, but chose to use it?






  

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tariqhu
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37. "African made more sense when we got here."
In response to Reply # 36


          

it doesn't makes sense 4-5 hundred years later. we don't have that level of connectivity to the continent.

and as was said earlier, the name of the continent wasn't named by the people that lived there. so how is that any different than black?

if we're going by the non-euro desciptions, isn't everybody Akebulan? are we Akebulan-Americans instead?

my bigger point, its that none of it make sense from a science perspective. ultimately, it matters less what we're called vs how we're treated.

Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

  

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allStah
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42. "It less about what we are called?"
In response to Reply # 37


          

So I guess you would be cool with Nigger-American, huh?

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Tue Oct-13-20 03:07 PM

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43. "Doesn’t he get to choose what label he wants? "
In response to Reply # 42


          

Why would you go there?

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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allStah
Member since Jun 21st 2014
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44. "He said it is less about what he is called."
In response to Reply # 43


          

As if it doesn’t matter, so I want to know, would he be okay with that terminology?’

It is a fair question based on the subject and context of the matter.

And the question is not for you, but for the user I asked

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Tue Oct-13-20 03:30 PM

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45. "It matters less what we are called vs how we are treated"
In response to Reply # 44


          

That doesn’t mean it doesn’t matter at all.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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tariqhu
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47. "how did you even get to that conclusion?"
In response to Reply # 42


          

matters less doesn't mean it doesn't it doesn't matter at all.



Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

  

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legsdiamond
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Tue Oct-13-20 01:50 PM

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41. "Where in Africa? Can you land in Africa and have relatives meet you"
In response to Reply # 36


          

at the airport?

I have no connection to Africa.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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kfine
Member since Jan 11th 2009
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Thu Oct-15-20 09:58 AM

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55. "What about a sociological take on the "Black" and "White" labels?"
In response to Reply # 32
Thu Oct-15-20 10:08 AM by kfine

          

Which is to say, perhaps the reason "Black" and "White" have been adopted (and persisted) as ethnoracial descriptions so successfully is because so many Americans are not the descendants of "pure" (for lack of a better term) ethnic unions, talk more of pure racial unions, and thus have a mix of heritage lines that they may or may not know of (or were robbed of knowing in the case of Black American DOS). For example, a White American may actually be Norwegian-Dutch-German American, right? Likewise, a Black American may actually be a Mandinka-Fante-Bamileke American, and so on.

I forget what I was reading not too long ago, some article about something going on in France... But I remember being struck by how unfamiliar it felt to read them say French v. other, meaning their default when talking about their native "White" people/descendants is to say French not White because that is their indigenous European identity (which itself is a blend of tribes from the area or conquered in it eg. Frankish, Gaul/Gallo-, etc). One tends to come across similar media language from Britain (eg. Britons) and other European countries (eg. Swedes).

Tbh, "White" tends to only be a popular label in nation-states which are:

*multi-ethnic (where there's a constant and diverse population of "others" to juxtapose against each other),
*wealthy (and thus attracting a steady and dynamic stream of "others" through migration, tourism, etc),
*post-colonial (and thus have a foundational legacy of oppression which shaped social stratification from jump and its accompanying labels/categories)

right? Like US, Canada, Australia, etc (I'm sure somebody somewhere has studied this). Similarly, "Black" tends to only be a popular label in post-colonial nation-states where institutionalized enslavement of Africans was a key antecedent to the state's founding (eg. Black Americans, Black Jamaicans, Black/Afro- Brazilians, Black South Africans).

*not denying the racist/oppressive elements of the labels by any means, but do think the sociological aspect might play a role too









>It’s not a theory. It’s actual color science . Black
>doesn’t reflect light. It absorbs all of light, which is why
>you get hotter when wearing black material.
>
>So the identification with the word black to reflect a skin
>color is incorrect,
>because black isn’t even a color. Black and white are
>representations of light wavelengths being absorbed or
>reflected.
>
>Why accept a name that we didn’t create, and was used to
>degrade us , and the
>term isn’t a reflection of color?

  

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poetx
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96. "after the fact racial nomenclature always gonna be problematic. "
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

so this ain't so much of an absolute to me as it is me picking my offramp (as w/ music, fashion, whatever) and saying, this is what i rock with, good, bad or indifferent.

>from you. The name of the region and country that you come
>from was suppressed, and you were re-identified as Negra or
>Black, to be presented as an existence that was less than
>European Caucasians.

i know this, man. (i know you know i know, but still, it needs saying).

there's nothing magical about 'Black', and it certainly exists within a whole ass eurocentric worldview replete with negative connotations and denotations. but idgaf.

when Black people said, we know all that shit. but Black is Beautiful, that was cool.


>Black isn’t even a color. It is the non-existence of color.
>Black absorbs all of light wavelengths and reflects nothing
>but darkness. White reflects all of light, which is why white
>is perceived. It is basically describing something that is
>nothing, or something that is non-existent.

i know. don't care.

>
>You have African-Americans who don’t even know that. They
>are just repeating what they have learned, and choosing to
>accept it, or rebrand it as some type of honorable identity.

i think there's more intentionality to it than that, but grant that that's an interpretation.

>Africa exists, and my blood descends from it. My people
>descend from it, so that must be reflected in my identity.


this is like indians, i mean, American Indians, i mean, Native Americans (who never gave a fuck about Amerigo Vespucci, really)... they are Sioux, they are Cree, they are Iriquois, they are Wampanoag, they are Lenni Lenape, they are Lumbee. and yeah, there are gonna be some who were snatched from their people and miseducated and have no idea to which nation they belong. (i like 'First Nations' as a designation, don't know how universally they rock w/ that).

Black to me is like the X in Malcolm X (or Louis X, or Clarence 13 X or whatever X you prefer).

it's a signifier, a placeholder, a vessel into which we've poured the contents of our culture, our pain, our history. i can put it in the African American bag, too. i don't like having to tack on American to add specificity. 'African' / 'Afrikan' (why it feel more 'Black' to spell it with a k? ) is coo, but only my pan african ppls feel me on the definition and i don't be having time to explain to everybody else.

it's a tragically interesting ass conversation to even have.

peace & blessings,

x.

www.twitter.com/poetx

=========================================
I'm an advocate for working smarter, not harder. If you just
focus on working hard you end up making someone else rich and
not having much to show for it. (c) mad

  

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Bluebear
Member since Apr 06th 2003
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Tue Oct-13-20 10:24 AM

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23. "To me it's an umbrella term"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

for AA's and Black folks from the rest of the world. a way of signifying our shared struggle.

  

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Buddy_Gilapagos
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39. "Right. It used to describe more than just African-Americans"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

  

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spirit
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50. "I’m Black. Styles P made a song about it"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

  

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CIPHA
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59. "I've been called "white" and an "agent on this board recenty"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

simply for defending black men,aAnd yall got mufuckas in here using the "other cultures had slaves", "black people sold/enslaved other people", and other full on white supremacist talking points arguments?

Wow.

_____________________________________

"I heard em' say I was a conscious rapper/ but Im a monster when I have to slap the shit out of a nonsense actor" -Talib Kweli, Good To You

  

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allStah
Member since Jun 21st 2014
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Thu Oct-15-20 11:18 AM

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60. "I’m not understanding your argument or the point that"
In response to Reply # 59


          

you’re trying to make.

Please elaborate.

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
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Thu Oct-15-20 01:08 PM

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67. "2 things "
In response to Reply # 60


          

Your “both sides had slaves” argument is a trash take that white problem use when discussing reparations

and rjcc said dude was white in another post.. and then followed up with “oh, I dont actually know, I was just bullshittin’”

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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allStah
Member since Jun 21st 2014
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70. "My statement that all cultures have endured slavery"
In response to Reply # 67
Thu Oct-15-20 03:08 PM by allStah

          

has nothing to do with reparations or the argument for or against it.

That statement is in regards to the ignorance that people have when it comes to what slavery is, and the history of slavery in this world. And it is that ignorance that people become self-centered when it comes to the burdens of their cultures.

I have studied the history of slavery for different cultures and tribes, and all that shit is BAD, no burden is greater or heavier than the other.

So with that being said, the term ADOS, or the African Descendants of Slavery has no definition when all cultures have been through slavery. It is not an identity. Africans over in Africa are also descendants of slavery because Africans had slaves, which is how Africans American became salves. It’s an illogical definition.

I believe in reparations on the mere facts that we were never paid for the labor we provided, because that labor was implemented involuntarily. Also that labor was exercised to build properties and lands of tremendous value that we have never received royalties or payments for, and the 40 acres and a mule that was promised to each feed slave was rescinded.


  

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CIPHA
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71. "Yeah...you need to go back to the drawing board fam"
In response to Reply # 70


  

          

You think ADOS means African Descendants of Slavery.

It don't.

It means AMERICAN Descendants of SLAVES.

Perhaps now you'll rethink this position.

_____________________________________

"I heard em' say I was a conscious rapper/ but Im a monster when I have to slap the shit out of a nonsense actor" -Talib Kweli, Good To You

  

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allStah
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Thu Oct-15-20 03:40 PM

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72. "That’s what I meant. It was a typo."
In response to Reply # 71
Thu Oct-15-20 03:50 PM by allStah

          

It’s still the same thing, and my argument still stands.
The history of man have been through slavery....

So no matter if it’s American or African...descendants of slavery title
still remains illogical.

Descendants of slavery is a generic term because almost every culture has been through slavery throughout their history.

Native Americans were slaves for awhile in this country, but they refused to remain slaves. So by them being the original people of this land, that would also apply to them, would it not?.




  

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CIPHA
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73. "You repeated the typo"
In response to Reply # 72


  

          

It's not descendants of slavery. It's American (specific place) Descendants of SLAVES (specific people).

That's not illogical unless you desperately want it to be.

_____________________________________

"I heard em' say I was a conscious rapper/ but Im a monster when I have to slap the shit out of a nonsense actor" -Talib Kweli, Good To You

  

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allStah
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Thu Oct-15-20 04:27 PM

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75. "It’s not specific."
In response to Reply # 73


          

Even grammatically it is illogical..

By that logic, a Chinese person, who descends from slaves of the Shang dynasty could
Move to America, become an American , and say that he is an American Descendent of Slavery. He is now American, and he also descends from slavery.

It should actually be Descendants of American Slavery....if we want to be grammatically correct.

But even still it’s a generic term that does not acknowledge my indigenous blood or my roots.

Also American is a nationality, not an ethnicity. So stop treating it like it’s an ethnicity.

This is why African- American is used...African being the ethnicity and American being the nationality.

  

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CIPHA
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76. "African isn't an ethnicity either"
In response to Reply # 75


  

          

Just like American isn't. But the "American" in ADOS is very important because America, the country, actually enslaved us.

So if a Chinese person wants to claim ADOS, so be it, more power to you. But America don't owe you anything. ADOS is claiming that America owes us a quantifiable debt based on our status.

And why does it need to acknowledge your indigenous blood?

_____________________________________

"I heard em' say I was a conscious rapper/ but Im a monster when I have to slap the shit out of a nonsense actor" -Talib Kweli, Good To You

  

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allStah
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Thu Oct-15-20 07:47 PM

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84. "African is definitely an ethnicity when tied with the nationality"
In response to Reply # 76
Thu Oct-15-20 07:48 PM by allStah

          

American.

An ethnicity is a social category, to distinguish a group from another group in a region or area.

The ethnicity African American distinguishes us from other Americans in this country....similar to that of black American, which I do not agree with.

American as itself is simply a nationality.

  

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CIPHA
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Thu Oct-15-20 04:40 PM

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77. "and btw, you repeated your typo again. "
In response to Reply # 75


  

          

Slaves, not slavery. It's not a concept or an abstract idea. A real thing that happened to real people that we can identify.

_____________________________________

"I heard em' say I was a conscious rapper/ but Im a monster when I have to slap the shit out of a nonsense actor" -Talib Kweli, Good To You

  

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luminous
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Thu Oct-15-20 11:34 AM

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61. "I use Caribbean American"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

--
Sometimes you have to look reality in the face and say 'No!'
-Ben (Reaper)

  

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CIPHA
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Fri Oct-16-20 09:15 AM

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88. "Is this an ethnicity?"
In response to Reply # 61


  

          

_____________________________________

"I heard em' say I was a conscious rapper/ but Im a monster when I have to slap the shit out of a nonsense actor" -Talib Kweli, Good To You

  

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allStah
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Fri Oct-16-20 10:47 AM

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91. "RE: I use Caribbean American"
In response to Reply # 61


          

The Caribbean is an area, territory or land that people inhabit or originate from. Now people may ask what island or area in the Caribbean you come from, or if you are Latin or African, but at least it is an area or region.

I wouldn’t define it an ethnicity.... but it would let me know that you are either African or Latin, and your language would be be specific about that.

  

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atruhead
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Thu Oct-15-20 12:18 PM

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64. "Im rolling with James Brown instead of the weirdos on okayplayer"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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CIPHA
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Thu Oct-15-20 01:56 PM

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68. "I also want to push back on one of your initial assertions "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

that "Every other population is recognized by the name of the country or region they come from: Chinese American, Latin American or Mexican
American, etc."

While it's true that those ethnic/national groups have maintained a self identity, America has always "whiteness" (as opposite of blackness) and disregarded ethnonational origin.

Starting with the Naturalization Act of 1790, it restricted citizenship to "any alien, being a free white person". Not free Chinese person, not free Latin person, etc. White.

And groups, such as the Armenians, have gone to court and fought for their whiteness, and won.

So we didn't create blackness out of thin air.

_____________________________________

"I heard em' say I was a conscious rapper/ but Im a monster when I have to slap the shit out of a nonsense actor" -Talib Kweli, Good To You

  

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allStah
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Thu Oct-15-20 05:19 PM

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80. "Even more of a reason to identify with our true ethnicity. "
In response to Reply # 68


          

We didn’t have a choice, but now we do.

It baffles me how people want to run away from their true ethnic identity, or
being related to African

And again your basing your actions on the actions of people who disliked and disregarded you. This is why that entire foundation gets stripped, and you go back to your true , original identity.



  

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CIPHA
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Thu Oct-15-20 06:04 PM

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82. "How does identifying as an ethnicity tangibly help black society?"
In response to Reply # 80


  

          

In America?

_____________________________________

"I heard em' say I was a conscious rapper/ but Im a monster when I have to slap the shit out of a nonsense actor" -Talib Kweli, Good To You

  

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BrooklynWHAT
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Fri Oct-16-20 09:29 AM

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89. "im black, youre black, were black. outside of america we're AA"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

<--- Big Baller World Order

  

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