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Subject: "What is your view on immigration?" Previous topic | Next topic
Stringer Bell
Member since Mar 15th 2004
3149 posts
Thu Feb-23-17 09:21 PM

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"What is your view on immigration?"


          

I don't hear people who oppose stepped up enforcement of immigration laws express their own views about where the limits of immigration should be. I'm starting to fear that the left/resistance will become a kind of "party of no" (akin to the Repubs during the obama years) who do not have any kind of coherent political platform except for obstructing whatever the repubs propose. In this environment, the repubs could seem like the only option for anyone who cares about immigration enforcement, which is a large number of voters.

Should leftists know how many immigrants should be admitted into the country, roughly, in order to be able to have a positive policy prescription? How does one go about figuring this out? I don't have a clue, but my gut feelings are as follows:

I'm personally in favor of amnesty for present occupants (except criminals above a certain level of crime that I haven't fully thought about). I could be pursuaded that these occupants should pay a token fine before being "naturalized".

Going forward, I'm in favor of legally letting in significant but sensible numbers of immigrants, in conjunction with tight border controls that are sensible. I don't really see the benefit in the age of nuclear weapons and terrorism for not having strict border controls in place (provided the unintended consequences aren't terribly high, an open question).

How many immigrants represent "significant but sensible" numbers? I have no idea. I feel that it's possible to let in too few or too many.

This seems like a problem to me, because I cannot look at a specific policy proposal and decide if it's too loose or too restrictive.

Something like the Trump Muslim Ban is an easy exception; it seems obviously too harsh in both the details and rhetoric accompanying it. That's a plainly bad policy.

But what if trump says, we are cutting Obamas number of annual Syrian refugee admittees from 10k to 8k? How do I know if Trumps number is wrong? How do I know if Obamas.number was right?

It may be academic right now, when Trumps xenophobic rhetoric demands pushback almost in spite of potentially sound policy suggestions. But I'm looking longer term.

Sorry to write so much. Any thoughts?

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
aaaaaaahhhhhhhh aahhhhhhhhhhhh aughhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
Feb 23rd 2017
1
What is your view on immigration rdhull?
Feb 23rd 2017
2
guess youre not familiar with Led Zeppelin
Feb 23rd 2017
3
      !!!
Feb 23rd 2017
4
well played.
Feb 24th 2017
8
It's all politics
Feb 24th 2017
5
Repubs were on board for reform for a min. Talk radio killed that quick
Feb 24th 2017
39
1. Total amnesty. 2. Make naturalization easier (cheaper and more plenti...
Feb 24th 2017
6
Yep.
Feb 24th 2017
9
What always freaks me out
Feb 24th 2017
19
      agreed.
Feb 24th 2017
20
Doesn't bother me ONE bit.
Feb 24th 2017
7
Agreed.
Feb 24th 2017
11
this is where i'm at with it...
Feb 24th 2017
25
Deport those with criminals backgrounds probation with amnesty the rest
Feb 24th 2017
10
What Ronald Reagan did in the 80's
Feb 24th 2017
12
we need to deport all undocumented, illegal, whatever adj TODAY
Feb 24th 2017
13
we don't know how America works w/o a source of cheap labor.
Feb 24th 2017
21
      ^^^^^^^^^^
Feb 24th 2017
23
      I know it doesn't cover the whole spectrum
Feb 25th 2017
41
      I expect they will propose people who receive public assistance
Feb 26th 2017
49
I'm Black.. I got more important shit to worry about.
Feb 24th 2017
14
answer the qeustion, fella. What's your *view* on it?
Feb 24th 2017
17
      I really don't care one way or the other
Feb 24th 2017
31
           word. That seems reasonable.
Feb 24th 2017
35
I'm not sure I fully understand what's happening...
Feb 24th 2017
15
it plays on the fears of 'Muricans
Feb 24th 2017
16
      I had an argument with a friend about this
Feb 24th 2017
26
           they make themselves look even dumber, man.
Feb 24th 2017
29
I support open borders
Feb 24th 2017
18
I have to read this later
Feb 24th 2017
24
oh and since overstays are the main source of undocumented ppl...
Feb 24th 2017
22
Oh, Canadians don't count...
Feb 24th 2017
32
That's the shit I don't like
Feb 24th 2017
34
My aunt dated a canadian who wound up getting deported
Feb 24th 2017
40
Irish Illegals
Feb 26th 2017
47
i love my cleaning ladies, whether they're legal or not.
Feb 24th 2017
27
plenty 'Americans' clean toilets.
Feb 24th 2017
28
      <------ and *this* guy who was a janitor in college.
Feb 24th 2017
33
wps ......i could care less who's here
Feb 24th 2017
30
right. do black folks even care lol
Feb 24th 2017
36
not trippin.
Feb 24th 2017
37
republicans love those useful boogeymen
Feb 24th 2017
38
I would just like a more honest and open discussion on the topic
Feb 25th 2017
42
Only allow the criminals, exiled warlords, bottom feeders
Feb 25th 2017
43
Come on in.
Feb 25th 2017
44
My thing is that without sufficient education or access to culture
Feb 26th 2017
45
I'm 100% against it - unless the immigrant lives on Earth
Feb 26th 2017
46
motherfuck your permission-
Feb 26th 2017
48
the pupusas from the el salvadoran bakery down the street are worth
Feb 26th 2017
50
without Immigration you don't have an America
Feb 27th 2017
51

rdhull
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Thu Feb-23-17 09:31 PM

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1. "aaaaaaahhhhhhhh aahhhhhhhhhhhh aughhhhhhhhhhhhhh!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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Stringer Bell
Member since Mar 15th 2004
3149 posts
Thu Feb-23-17 09:40 PM

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2. "What is your view on immigration rdhull?"
In response to Reply # 1


          

.

  

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rdhull
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Thu Feb-23-17 09:43 PM

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3. "guess youre not familiar with Led Zeppelin"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

  

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Stringer Bell
Member since Mar 15th 2004
3149 posts
Thu Feb-23-17 09:44 PM

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4. "!!!"
In response to Reply # 3


          

Very nice one. Lol!

  

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Shogun
Member since Jun 25th 2003
3042 posts
Fri Feb-24-17 08:05 AM

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8. "well played."
In response to Reply # 1


          

___________

Back again for the first time.

  

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Deacon Blues
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Fri Feb-24-17 05:18 AM

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5. "It's all politics"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


Democrats have had a plan for years, Obama increased deportations during his first term in hopes that republicans would consider immigration reform.

Republicans decided it was better politically for them to block it.

dude

  

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Mynoriti
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Fri Feb-24-17 07:22 PM

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39. "Repubs were on board for reform for a min. Talk radio killed that quick"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

They had that whole "gang of eight" thing trying to come up with a bi-partisan reform bill.
Eric Cantor got primaried in a huge upset and they all scurried like rats.

--------
http://ambitiondeficitdisorder.tumblr.com/

  

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SoWhat
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Fri Feb-24-17 08:00 AM

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6. "1. Total amnesty. 2. Make naturalization easier (cheaper and more plenti..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

3. Open borders.

They're here - let 'em stay. Let 'em bring their ppl. Let more folks in.

fuck you.

  

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Shogun
Member since Jun 25th 2003
3042 posts
Fri Feb-24-17 08:05 AM

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9. "Yep. "
In response to Reply # 6


          


>They're here - let 'em stay. Let 'em bring their ppl. Let
>more folks in.

I feel the same way.

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janey
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Fri Feb-24-17 02:39 PM

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19. "What always freaks me out"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

is when people who believe in efficient markets don't believe in open borders. It's the same damn thing.

Anything else is just fear mongering imo.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

  

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SoWhat
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Fri Feb-24-17 03:13 PM

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20. "agreed."
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

fuck you.

  

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Shogun
Member since Jun 25th 2003
3042 posts
Fri Feb-24-17 08:04 AM

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7. "Doesn't bother me ONE bit."
In response to Reply # 0


          

As long as they're paying taxes, I have NO beef with it. All that 'undocumented' shit is just that. If they work, pay taxes and don't fuck with me, I don't care.


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Stringer Bell
Member since Mar 15th 2004
3149 posts
Fri Feb-24-17 10:48 AM

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11. "Agreed."
In response to Reply # 7


          

Westerners are having fewer children, leading to aging population problems. It blows my mind that more people don't see immigration as an obvious component to solving this.

  

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The3rdOne
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Fri Feb-24-17 03:24 PM

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25. "this is where i'm at with it..."
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

most of these Mexicans in them border states are only coming home!! lolol

  

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Atillah Moor
Member since Sep 05th 2013
13825 posts
Fri Feb-24-17 10:17 AM

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10. "Deport those with criminals backgrounds probation with amnesty the rest"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

secure the border or better enforce it and whatever immigration laws are written

But immigration is about destabilizing Mexico for slave labor, law enforcement jobs, and cartel drug mules not providing stability to migrants.

  

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j.
Member since Feb 24th 2009
3819 posts
Fri Feb-24-17 11:24 AM

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12. "What Ronald Reagan did in the 80's"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Saint Ronnie PROPOSED and SIGNED a FULL FUCKIN AMNESTY! in 1986
wild how he would now be considered to the left of Obama today (on immigration)

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128303672

  

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j.
Member since Feb 24th 2009
3819 posts
Fri Feb-24-17 11:27 AM

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13. "we need to deport all undocumented, illegal, whatever adj TODAY"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

so hard working honest red blooded AMERICANS
can run and do all the back breaking physical manual less than minimum wage no rights no workers comp no OSHA jobs these damm immigrants keep taking away from us!

  

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SoWhat
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Fri Feb-24-17 03:14 PM

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21. "we don't know how America works w/o a source of cheap labor."
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

we've never seen it.

that's how i know this talk about deportin' 'em all is bullshit. b/c who is going to be that class of ppl who provide cheap labor? America has not ever existed w/o that class of ppl.

fuck you.

  

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Shogun
Member since Jun 25th 2003
3042 posts
Fri Feb-24-17 03:19 PM

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23. "^^^^^^^^^^"
In response to Reply # 21


          


>that's how i know this talk about deportin' 'em all is
>bullshit. b/c who is going to be that class of ppl who
>provide cheap labor? America has not ever existed w/o that
>class of ppl.

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The3rdOne
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Sat Feb-25-17 09:08 AM

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41. "I know it doesn't cover the whole spectrum"
In response to Reply # 21
Sat Feb-25-17 09:09 AM by The3rdOne

  

          

...of cheap labor, but why do you think the private prisons stock went up like 600% after Orange got in?? This is next tier type shit within walls. Also, I honestly can see laws created in conjuction with private sector work release programs in the future if these fucker contiune to have their way.

+ greater class divide. You cannot have a greater amount of economically flourishing people without the expansion of poor people to get rich off of.

  

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cp900
Member since Aug 20th 2006
1501 posts
Sun Feb-26-17 12:32 PM

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49. "I expect they will propose people who receive public assistance"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

as a next step.

GT: SoulGatherer

  

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
67264 posts
Fri Feb-24-17 11:32 AM

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14. "I'm Black.. I got more important shit to worry about. "
In response to Reply # 0


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Shogun
Member since Jun 25th 2003
3042 posts
Fri Feb-24-17 02:30 PM

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17. "answer the qeustion, fella. What's your *view* on it?"
In response to Reply # 14


          

whether it's 'important' to you or not, you still have a view on it, right?

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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
67264 posts
Fri Feb-24-17 03:46 PM

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31. "I really don't care one way or the other "
In response to Reply # 17


          

Sad shit if they get deported but you knew the risk

If an amnesty bill was passed on would be cool with it. I wouldn't spend more than it would cost to keep hard working immigrants but if you break the law in a major way... gotta go.

It's not an issue I will fight for tho

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Shogun
Member since Jun 25th 2003
3042 posts
Fri Feb-24-17 03:48 PM

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35. "word. That seems reasonable."
In response to Reply # 31


          

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Trinity444
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Fri Feb-24-17 02:24 PM

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15. "I'm not sure I fully understand what's happening..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

idk..
it has racist undertones..
as it seems unfair to throw folks out
or prevent them from coming in


here at work, our Mexican housekeeper said she think 45* hates her. She's sweet as pie too.


  

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Shogun
Member since Jun 25th 2003
3042 posts
Fri Feb-24-17 02:29 PM

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16. "it plays on the fears of 'Muricans"
In response to Reply # 15


          

>idk..
>it has racist undertones..


absolutely it is. Dipshits and underachievers are buying into that "they're gonna take away our jobs" nonsense. I had to explain it to a guy ( who works in a specialized field in an office) how that's complete bullshit. "so an immigrant is just gonna sneak in here one day and do Tech support?" He stopped spouting off that dumb shit.


>as it seems unfair to throw folks out
>or prevent them from coming in
>

agreed.

>
>here at work, our Mexican housekeeper said she think 45* hates
>her. She's sweet as pie too.
>

He does. He hates anybody not pink.


>
>

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Stringer Bell
Member since Mar 15th 2004
3149 posts
Fri Feb-24-17 03:27 PM

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26. "I had an argument with a friend about this"
In response to Reply # 16


          

"They're taking our jobs."

Don't these people understand that the only reason jobs exist is because of...people? Like, you put a community of people somewhere, jobs spring up because the community exchanges goods and services with each other.

The introduction of people introduces demand, and also a supply of labor to satisfy that demand.

There isn't some fixed amount of jobs (like a game of musical chairs) where introducing more people causes there to not be enough jobs to go around. This is literally the level of these folks' thinking though.

  

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Shogun
Member since Jun 25th 2003
3042 posts
Fri Feb-24-17 03:45 PM

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29. "they make themselves look even dumber, man."
In response to Reply # 26


          

they guy I'm talking about spoke almost EXCLUSIVELY in buzzwords he'd picked up on TV.

He called Obama a Socialist. I asked him to tell me what a socialist was. "I don't want to talk about it." Riiight

He referred to " Government Handouts". I pointed out to him that unemployment, Financial Aid, and down payment assistance fall under that definition. *crickets*

He used "they're gonna take our jobs", "they come over here and..." and "I don't need the government telling me what to do" every other day, and NEVER said anything of substance in a discussion about government policy.


Basically, he took his cues from Fox News, and never picked up a newspaper or book to learn what any of that shit means.

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janey
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Fri Feb-24-17 02:38 PM

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18. "I support open borders"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

There's an excellent piece in my college magazine from about 5 years ago. The first position in this article is the one I favor:

http://magazine.pomona.edu/2012/summer/beyond-the-wall/


~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

  

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Stringer Bell
Member since Mar 15th 2004
3149 posts
Fri Feb-24-17 03:20 PM

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24. "I have to read this later"
In response to Reply # 18
Fri Feb-24-17 03:21 PM by Stringer Bell

          

but a few questions I have re: open borders. Would open borders have to mean that there is no border enforcement, or can it include border enforcement but in a context where anyone who wishes to enter is (eventually) allowed to? And can open borders still mean vetting of some kind before naturalization (and exclusion of criminals)?

Forgive my ignorance.

  

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SoWhat
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Fri Feb-24-17 03:18 PM

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22. "oh and since overstays are the main source of undocumented ppl..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

and Canadians overstay more than ppl from anywhere else....

i expect to see lots of Canadians in immigration court over the next few months. RIGHT?

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/14/illegal-immigrants-who-overstay-visas-almost-never/

fuck you.

  

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Shogun
Member since Jun 25th 2003
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Fri Feb-24-17 03:46 PM

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32. "Oh, Canadians don't count..."
In response to Reply # 22


          

They're friendly, and stuff.


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legsdiamond
Member since May 05th 2011
67264 posts
Fri Feb-24-17 03:47 PM

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34. "That's the shit I don't like"
In response to Reply # 32


          

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

  

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Mynoriti
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Fri Feb-24-17 07:40 PM

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40. "My aunt dated a canadian who wound up getting deported"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

so it does happen lol

--------
http://ambitiondeficitdisorder.tumblr.com/

  

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Hamsterline
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Sun Feb-26-17 10:57 AM

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47. "Irish Illegals"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

Talking jobs in Boston. Jobs that blue collar people want. But not a peep about them either.

_________________________
"no manure, no magic"

  

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Flash80
Member since Jan 03rd 2007
6953 posts
Fri Feb-24-17 03:38 PM

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27. "i love my cleaning ladies, whether they're legal or not."
In response to Reply # 0


          

absent of another great depression, no american woman is gonna stick her hand in 10 toilets a day for a pittance.

  

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SoWhat
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Fri Feb-24-17 03:41 PM

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28. "plenty 'Americans' clean toilets."
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

including the black lady who cleans mine.

fuck you.

  

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Shogun
Member since Jun 25th 2003
3042 posts
Fri Feb-24-17 03:47 PM

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33. "<------ and *this* guy who was a janitor in college."
In response to Reply # 28


          

I stole the job from a Mexican dude though. He almost got me.


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ambient1
Member since May 23rd 2007
41077 posts
Fri Feb-24-17 03:46 PM

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30. "wps ......i could care less who's here"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

=======================================
Coolin...

  

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Trinity444
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Fri Feb-24-17 03:58 PM

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36. "right. do black folks even care lol"
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

  

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infin8
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Fri Feb-24-17 06:35 PM

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37. "not trippin."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

you wanna shoot thru and come check out this boolshyt we got goin, mo' power to ya.

'they're takin all the damn jobs' <-- (c) somebody who wouldn't do ANY of the jobs 'they' are 'taking', unless he can cop J's and purp.

Old people be complaining and I'm like 'you're about to retire and DIE...why you got your panties in a bunch?'

IG: amadu_me

"...Whateva, man..." (c) Redman

  

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Mynoriti
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35651 posts
Fri Feb-24-17 07:10 PM

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38. "republicans love those useful boogeymen"
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Fri Feb-24-17 07:26 PM by Mynoriti

  

          

Aside from digging the cheap labor, for people in positions of power, they can fuck americans over and just point the finger at Pedro, because he's the reason you can't find a good paying job, and why your healthcare costs went up, why our education system is shitty, why we can't take care of our veterans, and why you need to be very very afraid (i mean, along with refugees, and the knock-out game) and WHY U GOTTA PRESS 1 FOR ENGLISH!

For people not in positions of power, they get, an excuse for all their failures, and someone to feel superior to.

--------
http://ambitiondeficitdisorder.tumblr.com/

  

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Mignight Maruder
Member since Nov 30th 2003
7457 posts
Sat Feb-25-17 09:28 AM

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42. "I would just like a more honest and open discussion on the topic"
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Until recently it's never been a Republican/Democrat issue. Neither side ever really took a hard-line stance on the issue despite it increasingly becoming a major topic of national debate.

I realize many Americans lie somewhere in the middle, but far too often the conversation goes nowhere bc you have conservative bigots who make arguments steeped in unnecessary fear, xenophobia, and racism. On the other side, you get liberals who shout down anything proposed by a Republican and are unwilling to discuss any option that puts even limited restrictions on immigration.

On the surface, yeah sure, this country's founding gives it no merit to enforce an immigration rule. However, most countries do have policies in place to vet and restrict the number of immigrants coming in to their country. I don't think it's necessarily bad per se - if it's done in an equitable and just manner.

But back to my main point. People need to be more honest. The vast majority of undocumented immigrants aren't coming here if a job doesn't await them. Are we supposed to pretend that only liberals (you know, the lazy entitled party?) are hiring these undocumented workers? Are we supposed to pretend that only liberals are renting their homes/apartments to undocumented families? Are we supposed to pretend that they aren't contributing in a meaningful way to our expanding economy?

Mass deportation will cause a shit ton of problems for our country that I'm not sure we are prepared to confront. I could say much more....

  

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Musa
Member since Mar 08th 2006
15500 posts
Sat Feb-25-17 10:11 AM

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43. "Only allow the criminals, exiled warlords, bottom feeders"
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and other lowly individuals looking for an opportunity to exploit come here.

After all those attributes represent the Euros who founded and run this country.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

  

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Sepia.
Member since Feb 25th 2009
12896 posts
Sat Feb-25-17 11:49 AM

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44. "Come on in. "
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*shrug*

  

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mellowboogie
Member since Jun 26th 2006
3582 posts
Sun Feb-26-17 06:21 AM

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45. "My thing is that without sufficient education or access to culture "
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and an honest

Noone is allowed to have an honest conversation because the world has become too PC.

The left are like 'let everyone in, we're all equal, we all bleed the same color blood' and the right are like 'they're too different, this country belongs to us, fuck off you liberal annoyances'


Do I support immigration? Absolutely, I think it can be wonderful, socially enhancing, economically productive and just better over all to have a society that's doesn't do things one way.

But there has to be room for an honest discussion about fear, and why the fear is there in order for it to move forward with better support from the majority.
A bunch of rich 'hippy' white kids living in middle class areas with the best access to education screaming 'let them in' isn't always a realistic model for some people.
If subjects like anthropology, sociology and cultural studies were being taught in secondary schools with access to information about how other cultures really live, not just what we see in movies or in the news, there would be a much better acceptance of immigration.

But people have to be able to voice their fears without being attacked or it's always going to be an issue resulting in extreme defensiveness and irrational arguments.

It just feels like there's no middle ground, it's 2 extremes not listening to each other.

'Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent. ~Victor Hugo'

  

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handle
Charter member
16747 posts
Sun Feb-26-17 10:47 AM

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46. "I'm 100% against it - unless the immigrant lives on Earth"
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Babies are leaving heaven and coming out of American Women's Vaginas and invading this country.

No more childbirth!

------------
My prayers have been answered!

Gone
My Discogs collection for The Roots:
http://www.discogs.com/user/tomhayes-roots/collection

  

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kinetic94761180
Member since Jul 05th 2002
17385 posts
Sun Feb-26-17 11:59 AM

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48. "motherfuck your permission-"
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it was never yours to begin w/.

_____________
if racism is a cancer, black thought is the answer.

Rjcc is code for "bitch-ass troll"

DROkayplayerâ„¢

  

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decaturpsalm
Member since Apr 24th 2005
19268 posts
Sun Feb-26-17 12:36 PM

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50. "the pupusas from the el salvadoran bakery down the street are worth"
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twice as much as they are charging for them

matter fact, im gonna get some today

_______________________________________
touched like midas these bitch ass niggas they study and bite us.

  

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mistermaxxx08
Member since Dec 31st 2010
16076 posts
Mon Feb-27-17 12:30 PM

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51. "without Immigration you don't have an America"
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somebody gotta work, and if you start banning well them jive turkeys can't have drugs brought into the community and they don't want to be found out on their ways.

i ain't tripping if you is cool, however alot of turkeys who weren't speaking english are learning on the fly and trying to be cool

ain't nobody getting deported with paper

mistermaxxx R.Kelly, Michael Jackson,Stevie wonder,Rick James,Marvin Gaye,El Debarge, Barry WHite Lionel RIchie,Isleys EWF,Lady T.,Kid creole and coconuts,the crusaders,kc sunshine band,bee gees,jW,sd,NE,JB

Miami Heat, New York Yankees,buffalo bills

  

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