I don't hear people who oppose stepped up enforcement of immigration laws express their own views about where the limits of immigration should be. I'm starting to fear that the left/resistance will become a kind of "party of no" (akin to the Repubs during the obama years) who do not have any kind of coherent political platform except for obstructing whatever the repubs propose. In this environment, the repubs could seem like the only option for anyone who cares about immigration enforcement, which is a large number of voters.

Should leftists know how many immigrants should be admitted into the country, roughly, in order to be able to have a positive policy prescription? How does one go about figuring this out? I don't have a clue, but my gut feelings are as follows:

I'm personally in favor of amnesty for present occupants (except criminals above a certain level of crime that I haven't fully thought about). I could be pursuaded that these occupants should pay a token fine before being "naturalized".

Going forward, I'm in favor of legally letting in significant but sensible numbers of immigrants, in conjunction with tight border controls that are sensible. I don't really see the benefit in the age of nuclear weapons and terrorism for not having strict border controls in place (provided the unintended consequences aren't terribly high, an open question).

How many immigrants represent "significant but sensible" numbers? I have no idea. I feel that it's possible to let in too few or too many.

This seems like a problem to me, because I cannot look at a specific policy proposal and decide if it's too loose or too restrictive.

Something like the Trump Muslim Ban is an easy exception; it seems obviously too harsh in both the details and rhetoric accompanying it. That's a plainly bad policy.

But what if trump says, we are cutting Obamas number of annual Syrian refugee admittees from 10k to 8k? How do I know if Trumps number is wrong? How do I know if Obamas.number was right?

It may be academic right now, when Trumps xenophobic rhetoric demands pushback almost in spite of potentially sound policy suggestions. But I'm looking longer term.

Sorry to write so much. Any thoughts?

.

Very nice one. Lol!

Democrats have had a plan for years, Obama increased deportations during his first term in hopes that republicans would consider immigration reform.

Republicans decided it was better politically for them to block it.

They had that whole "gang of eight" thing trying to come up with a bi-partisan reform bill.
Eric Cantor got primaried in a huge upset and they all scurried like rats.

3. Open borders.

They're here - let 'em stay. Let 'em bring their ppl. Let more folks in.

>They're here - let 'em stay. Let 'em bring their ppl. Let
>more folks in.

I feel the same way.

is when people who believe in efficient markets don't believe in open borders. It's the same damn thing.

Anything else is just fear mongering imo.

~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

As long as they're paying taxes, I have NO beef with it. All that 'undocumented' shit is just that. If they work, pay taxes and don't fuck with me, I don't care.

Westerners are having fewer children, leading to aging population problems. It blows my mind that more people don't see immigration as an obvious component to solving this.

most of these Mexicans in them border states are only coming home!! lolol

secure the border or better enforce it and whatever immigration laws are written

But immigration is about destabilizing Mexico for slave labor, law enforcement jobs, and cartel drug mules not providing stability to migrants.

Saint Ronnie PROPOSED and SIGNED a FULL FUCKIN AMNESTY! in 1986
wild how he would now be considered to the left of Obama today (on immigration)

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128303672

so hard working honest red blooded AMERICANS
can run and do all the back breaking physical manual less than minimum wage no rights no workers comp no OSHA jobs these damm immigrants keep taking away from us!

we've never seen it.

that's how i know this talk about deportin' 'em all is bullshit. b/c who is going to be that class of ppl who provide cheap labor? America has not ever existed w/o that class of ppl.

>that's how i know this talk about deportin' 'em all is
>bullshit. b/c who is going to be that class of ppl who
>provide cheap labor? America has not ever existed w/o that
>class of ppl.

...of cheap labor, but why do you think the private prisons stock went up like 600% after Orange got in?? This is next tier type shit within walls. Also, I honestly can see laws created in conjuction with private sector work release programs in the future if these fucker contiune to have their way.

+ greater class divide. You cannot have a greater amount of economically flourishing people without the expansion of poor people to get rich off of.

as a next step.

whether it's 'important' to you or not, you still have a view on it, right?

Sad shit if they get deported but you knew the risk

If an amnesty bill was passed on would be cool with it. I wouldn't spend more than it would cost to keep hard working immigrants but if you break the law in a major way... gotta go.

It's not an issue I will fight for tho

idk..
it has racist undertones..
as it seems unfair to throw folks out
or prevent them from coming in


here at work, our Mexican housekeeper said she think 45* hates her. She's sweet as pie too.

>idk..
>it has racist undertones..


absolutely it is. Dipshits and underachievers are buying into that "they're gonna take away our jobs" nonsense. I had to explain it to a guy ( who works in a specialized field in an office) how that's complete bullshit. "so an immigrant is just gonna sneak in here one day and do Tech support?" He stopped spouting off that dumb shit.


>as it seems unfair to throw folks out
>or prevent them from coming in
>

agreed.

>
>here at work, our Mexican housekeeper said she think 45* hates
>her. She's sweet as pie too.
>

He does. He hates anybody not pink.


>
>

"They're taking our jobs."

Don't these people understand that the only reason jobs exist is because of...people? Like, you put a community of people somewhere, jobs spring up because the community exchanges goods and services with each other.

The introduction of people introduces demand, and also a supply of labor to satisfy that demand.

There isn't some fixed amount of jobs (like a game of musical chairs) where introducing more people causes there to not be enough jobs to go around. This is literally the level of these folks' thinking though.

they guy I'm talking about spoke almost EXCLUSIVELY in buzzwords he'd picked up on TV.

He called Obama a Socialist. I asked him to tell me what a socialist was. "I don't want to talk about it." Riiight

He referred to " Government Handouts". I pointed out to him that unemployment, Financial Aid, and down payment assistance fall under that definition. *crickets*

He used "they're gonna take our jobs", "they come over here and..." and "I don't need the government telling me what to do" every other day, and NEVER said anything of substance in a discussion about government policy.


Basically, he took his cues from Fox News, and never picked up a newspaper or book to learn what any of that shit means.

There's an excellent piece in my college magazine from about 5 years ago. The first position in this article is the one I favor:

http://magazine.pomona.edu/2012/summer/beyond-the-wall/


~ ~ ~
All meetings end in separation
All acquisition ends in dispersion
All life ends in death
- The Buddha

|\_/|
='_'=

Every hundred years, all new people

but a few questions I have re: open borders. Would open borders have to mean that there is no border enforcement, or can it include border enforcement but in a context where anyone who wishes to enter is (eventually) allowed to? And can open borders still mean vetting of some kind before naturalization (and exclusion of criminals)?

Forgive my ignorance.

and Canadians overstay more than ppl from anywhere else....

i expect to see lots of Canadians in immigration court over the next few months. RIGHT?

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/14/illegal-immigrants-who-overstay-visas-almost-never/

They're friendly, and stuff.

so it does happen lol

Talking jobs in Boston. Jobs that blue collar people want. But not a peep about them either.

absent of another great depression, no american woman is gonna stick her hand in 10 toilets a day for a pittance.

including the black lady who cleans mine.

I stole the job from a Mexican dude though. He almost got me.

you wanna shoot thru and come check out this boolshyt we got goin, mo' power to ya.

'they're takin all the damn jobs' <-- (c) somebody who wouldn't do ANY of the jobs 'they' are 'taking', unless he can cop J's and purp.

Old people be complaining and I'm like 'you're about to retire and DIE...why you got your panties in a bunch?'

Aside from digging the cheap labor, for people in positions of power, they can fuck americans over and just point the finger at Pedro, because he's the reason you can't find a good paying job, and why your healthcare costs went up, why our education system is shitty, why we can't take care of our veterans, and why you need to be very very afraid (i mean, along with refugees, and the knock-out game) and WHY U GOTTA PRESS 1 FOR ENGLISH!

For people not in positions of power, they get, an excuse for all their failures, and someone to feel superior to.

Until recently it's never been a Republican/Democrat issue. Neither side ever really took a hard-line stance on the issue despite it increasingly becoming a major topic of national debate.

I realize many Americans lie somewhere in the middle, but far too often the conversation goes nowhere bc you have conservative bigots who make arguments steeped in unnecessary fear, xenophobia, and racism. On the other side, you get liberals who shout down anything proposed by a Republican and are unwilling to discuss any option that puts even limited restrictions on immigration.

On the surface, yeah sure, this country's founding gives it no merit to enforce an immigration rule. However, most countries do have policies in place to vet and restrict the number of immigrants coming in to their country. I don't think it's necessarily bad per se - if it's done in an equitable and just manner.

But back to my main point. People need to be more honest. The vast majority of undocumented immigrants aren't coming here if a job doesn't await them. Are we supposed to pretend that only liberals (you know, the lazy entitled party?) are hiring these undocumented workers? Are we supposed to pretend that only liberals are renting their homes/apartments to undocumented families? Are we supposed to pretend that they aren't contributing in a meaningful way to our expanding economy?

Mass deportation will cause a shit ton of problems for our country that I'm not sure we are prepared to confront. I could say much more....

and other lowly individuals looking for an opportunity to exploit come here.

After all those attributes represent the Euros who founded and run this country.

*shrug*

and an honest

Noone is allowed to have an honest conversation because the world has become too PC.

The left are like 'let everyone in, we're all equal, we all bleed the same color blood' and the right are like 'they're too different, this country belongs to us, fuck off you liberal annoyances'


Do I support immigration? Absolutely, I think it can be wonderful, socially enhancing, economically productive and just better over all to have a society that's doesn't do things one way.

But there has to be room for an honest discussion about fear, and why the fear is there in order for it to move forward with better support from the majority.
A bunch of rich 'hippy' white kids living in middle class areas with the best access to education screaming 'let them in' isn't always a realistic model for some people.
If subjects like anthropology, sociology and cultural studies were being taught in secondary schools with access to information about how other cultures really live, not just what we see in movies or in the news, there would be a much better acceptance of immigration.

But people have to be able to voice their fears without being attacked or it's always going to be an issue resulting in extreme defensiveness and irrational arguments.

It just feels like there's no middle ground, it's 2 extremes not listening to each other.

Babies are leaving heaven and coming out of American Women's Vaginas and invading this country.

No more childbirth!

it was never yours to begin w/.

twice as much as they are charging for them

matter fact, im gonna get some today

somebody gotta work, and if you start banning well them jive turkeys can't have drugs brought into the community and they don't want to be found out on their ways.

i ain't tripping if you is cool, however alot of turkeys who weren't speaking english are learning on the fly and trying to be cool

ain't nobody getting deported with paper