i'm checking out a premier text on yoruba religion and this is the first question popping into my head as i read the intro...

the text: Olodumare, God in Yoruba belief, by E. Bolaji Idowu

himself raised raised in Ikorodu, Nigeria in the early nineteen hundreds came from a family with strong lineage ties to the Afrikan diety Ogun...later became a Methodist Minister and played a key role in shaping the concept of (get this) "Indigenous African Christianity".

and this is supposedly THE book on Yoruba religion...*scratches head*

being that in 1955 the Yoruba speaking part of Nigeria was attacked by Muslim and Christian converts in an "anti-witchcraft" craze (called Antinga) in which Yoruba priests and priestesses were killed and shrines destroyed, WHY do there exist Nigerian/Yoruba Christians. This confuses me...and i'm wondering how the author could call himself Yoruba and profess to still BE Yoruba at the core while being a Methodist minister.

this is a serious question, and i'm looking for well thought out sensible, non-emotionally fueled answers. thanks ini advance.

*disclaimer: if you're not familiar with yoruba and intend to simply search keywords in efforts to "answer", cease now, for your reply will probably not witstand the followup questions. if you're an American person, don't answer, i'm too tired to even listen to yall anymore. and if you're European/white, then just close this window or just click outta this post, cuz well...you don't matter.*

for those left able to answer, "AND YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE", stop playing Warcraft and answer the query!

Red, Black, Green

-------------
"Everywhere is war- m'say war" -- Bob Marley

www.jru.org.jm
Gone clear...Jamaican Rugby nah ras. Mo' Fiya!


"Be intent on action, not on the fruits of action; avoid attraction to the fruits and attachment to inaction! Perform action, firm in discipline, relinquishing attachment; be impartial to failure and sucess - this equanimity is called discipling. Wise men disciplined by understanding relinquish the fruit born of action; freed from these bonds of rebirth, they reach a place beyond decay." --Teachings of Krishna

"...If it were not for them in my life I might have not realized just how dangerous Western culture is for thinking Afrikans and would have gone on to become another empty, wasted intellectualizer." --Larry D. Crawford (Mwalimu A. Bomani Baruti)

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

and "jen n juicy" and "serpentinefire"

oh yeah! i got The Sex Imperative. inbox me your number! we have a LOT to talk about.

Red, Black, Green

I am not Nigerian but many Haitians still honour ancestral gods like Ogoun through Vodou but still consider themselves catholic.
Their reasoning is that God is too busy to take care of mortals thus they can provide sacrifices to lesser gods who are closer to humans. It's the same reasoning for other synchretic religions all over the Caribbean and South America like Santeria,etc..
I would be curious to know as well if it is the same dynamic in the original religion among the Yoruba.

The same way Nubians justified theirs. By simple conversion.

Does being Yoruba (or of any Afrikan culture) mean you have to believe in Paganistic deitys?



Peace and Love
-Ren

---
In memory of my sig..

"paganistic dieties?"

Explain this please

I take issue with that phrase as well

"The problem comes when you find harangue passing off as art. It seems to me the best art is political and you ought to be able to make it unquestionably political and irrevocably beautiful at the same time."
Toni Morrison

I smell Christian Ethnocentricism. *snif *snif...and it stanks.


*********************************************************
Recommended reading:

******Parable of the Sower- by Octavia Butler*******
Story about a hyper-empath who becomes the founder of a humanist cult created to transform the destiny of humankind

******The spirit of Terrorism- Jean Baudrillard*******
A MUST read for every thinking being
online copy @
http://awake.sparklehouse.com/downloads/papers/baud_terr.html

http://www.youtube.com/user/kimmayluv

this should have been such an OBVIOUS inference in the original post...for if there were not converts i wouldn't have been able to even ASK the question...would i?

i'm asking for an explanation of why and how they justified converting.

or are you just talking to be talking?

Red, Black, Green

>this should have been such an OBVIOUS inference in the
>original post...for if there were not converts i wouldn't
>have been able to even ASK the question...would i?
>
>i'm asking for an explanation of why and how they justified
>converting.
>
>or are you just talking to be talking?

By "conversion" I meant their belif in God IS their justification. Unless you're thinking of Yoruba (which I don't see how) as a religious group then asking them how they justify being Christians makes no sense whatsoever.





Peace and Love
-Ren

---
In memory of my sig..

1)Main Entry: pa·gan
Pronunciation: 'pA-g&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin paganus, from Latin, country dweller, from pagus country district; akin to Latin pangere to fix -- more at PACT
Date: 14th century
1 : HEATHEN 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
2 : one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic personMain

2)Entry: poly·the·ism
Pronunciation: 'pä-lE-(")thE-"i-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: French polytheisme, from Late Greek polytheos polytheistic, from Greek, of many gods, from poly- + theos god
Date: 1613
: belief in or worship of more than one god

3)Main Entry: 1god
Pronunciation: 'gäd also 'god
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old High German got god
Date: before 12th century
1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind

africans didn't believe in God, this is a european creation. If the european is looking at the "dietites" or "gods" of the afrikan people worshipped and calls it "polytheistic" or "heathen worship" then it does so in reference to it's OWN idea of this "thing" that governs and created the universe. Seeing as how afrikans in this case don't ascribe to a "god" as defined in the above definition, then the word "polytheistic" wouldn't apply and neither would "pagan". The concept of god as definied by europeans rests within very SPECIFIC properties. African descriptions of the "governing body of the cosmos" are SO different as to not even be compared to the european concept of "god".

Red, Black, Green

>1)Main Entry: pa·gan
>Pronunciation: 'pA-g&n
>Function: noun
>Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin paganus, from
>Latin, country dweller, from pagus country district; akin to
>Latin pangere to fix -- more at PACT
>Date: 14th century
>1 : HEATHEN 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic
>religion (as in ancient Rome)
>2 : one who has little or no religion and who delights in
>sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or
>hedonistic personMain
>
>2)Entry: poly·the·ism
>Pronunciation: 'pä-lE-(")thE-"i-z&m
>Function: noun
>Etymology: French polytheisme, from Late Greek polytheos
>polytheistic, from Greek, of many gods, from poly- + theos
>god
>Date: 1613
>: belief in or worship of more than one god
>
>3)Main Entry: 1god
>Pronunciation: 'gäd also 'god
>Function: noun
>Etymology: Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old
>High German got god
>Date: before 12th century
>1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a : the
>Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is
>worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe b Christian
>Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all
>as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
>
>africans didn't believe in God, this is a european creation.

umm, no it isnt. Unless you consider Romans, Greeks, Egyptians,
Aztecs, "Mid Easterners", and various other cultures European.

Didn't the Kemetians have the first idea of recognizing a monotheistic God?

>If the european is looking at the "dietetics" or "gods" of
>the afrikan people worshipped and calls it "polytheistic" or
>"heathen worship" then it does so in reference to it's OWN
>idea of this "thing" that governs and created the universe.

That's a pretty simplistic view of the situation. And in use of the word "paganistic" I didn't necessarily mean polytheism (and certainly not heathen worship) but rather "local" gods, and cultures that create their own deities for the specific purpose of elevating their own culture (or a god within self) and not in a universal sense.

Also, the "big 3" (islam, judaism, christianity) came not from Europe, but out of the so-called "Mid East" (which I believe at one time was considered a part of Africa, or was it not?) so I don't see how you could pretend as if God is a European "invention" when the concept of "God" is way older than any such things as Europeans.

>Seeing as how afrikans in this case don't ascribe to a "god"
>as defined in the above definition, then the word
>"polytheistic" wouldn't apply and neither would "pagan." The
>concept of god as definied by europeans rests within very
>SPECIFIC properties. African descriptions of the "governing
>body of the cosmos" are SO different as to not even be
>compared to the european concept of "god".

Alright, perhaps I used the word "pagan" in a very narrowminded way. Regardless though, this doesn't have anything to do with Europe or Europeans at all, really.


Peace and Love
-Ren

---
In memory of my sig..

"Didn't the Kemetians have the first idea of recognizing a monotheistic God?"

they didn't have a word or concept withing their ideology that mimicked the concept we know as "god". if you were to look for teh word "god" you wouldn't find one in their literature. simply, of course, because this is a european term. LIKEWISE when looking for concepts similar to GOD of european usage you would find only "parts". the reason the term "god" is used in ANY way relating to Kemet is becasue this is simpy the "closest" word in this language to describe the ideas they were seeing...

if i told you i had a concept of this being that controlled the universe that was all knowing, but was neither omnipotent and omni present...would you say i worshipped a God? no. because the concept of ideas concerning god exist within narrow parameters and carry certain properties. to say that kemetians believied in "god" is a disservice to their spiritual system. it's like saying someone who eats only chicken and fish is a vegetarian!

Red, Black, Green

>"Didn't the Kemetians have the first idea of recognizing a
>monotheistic God?"
>
>they didn't have a word or concept withing their ideology
>that mimicked the concept we know as "god". if you were to
>look for teh word "god" you wouldn't find one in their
>literature. simply, of course, because this is a european
>term.

I meant "god" as in a ANY deity, creator, etc. Not as to latch on to the word "god". But in the sense of people recognizing a supreme being.

LIKEWISE when looking for concepts similar to GOD of
>european usage you would find only "parts". the reason the
>term "god" is used in ANY way relating to Kemet is becasue
>this is simpy the "closest" word in this language to
>describe the ideas they were seeing...

I think you're getting confused by simple words. The focus here isn't on the specific term of "god" but rather the concept of any deity, supreme being, or whatever you wish to call it. I understand that 'god' is a European term (the reason why I used it is because we are speaking a European language) but the idea of a Supreme Being is NOT a European invention.

>if i told you i had a concept of this being that controlled
>the universe that was all knowing, but was neither
>omnipotent and omni present...would you say i worshipped a
>God? no. because the concept of ideas concerning god exist
>within narrow parameters and carry certain properties. to
>say that kemetians believied in "god" is a disservice to
>their spiritual system. it's like saying someone who eats
>only chicken and fish is a vegetarian!

Then let us (me really) refrain from using the word "god" and use "deity" from here on since you seem to view it in a narrowminded context, whereas my use of it was just another word for deity. Okay, player?


Peace and Love
-Ren

---
In memory of my sig..

after MONTHS of explanation (check the archives), this statement:

"The focus here isn't on the specific term of "god" but rather the concept of any deity, supreme being, or whatever you wish to call it. "

is an obvious UNIVERSALIZATION. to say that "whatever" traditional afrkans "want to call it" would even ADHERE to the subtle ideas you express in the above phrase in a typical european universalization. do you know what universalization is?

using the words "ANY diety" denotes a commonality among concepts (i won't even get into specific words here) between VERY VERY different ideological systems. to equate or even compare the Yoruba with the Roman pantheon is a disservice to the spiritual system of the Yoruba, for while YOU might see similarities... there are enough differences in abstract concepts so as to not even BEGIN to say the phrase "supreme being". not every system even HAS a concept of a "supreme" being in the first place. for you to say this is to operate from YOUR center and compare and synthesiz something you see closely resembling YOUR concept in another system.

then again you're probably one of the people who say, EVERYONE HAS A CONCEPT OF GOD, even Buddhists (who certainly DON'T). your fusion of these concepts from one tradition to another is known as universalism. one of the first steps to avoid doing so is to LEARN about something from within that system and not from a translated or translitereated standpoint as it seems you are doing. once there, it's STILL hard to operate from the "others" center due to the original perspective you have. to even use the word or apply the concept of "god" (in its abstract sense) to traditional afrikan systems is pitiful. yes, you can find similarities, but that is of use only to the European trying to understand and relate "another" EXTREMELY different system to their own.

iinterestingly enough they're practically the only group that does this. oter systems simply don't try to explain others with respect to their systems. they recognize the differences and are comfortable with it. europeans ALWAYS try to universalize their perspectives and ideas for export upon others.

Red, Black, Green

>after MONTHS of explanation (check the archives), this
>statement:
>
>"The focus here isn't on the specific term of "god" but
>rather the concept of any deity, supreme being, or whatever
>you wish to call it. "
>
>is an obvious UNIVERSALIZATION. to say that "whatever"
>traditional afrkans "want to call it" would even ADHERE to
>the subtle ideas you express in the above phrase in a
>typical european universalization. do you know what
>universalization is?

Yes, and thats exactly what I was doing.

>using the words "ANY deity" denotes a commonality among
>concepts (i won't even get into specific words here) between
>VERY VERY different ideological systems.

The only common trait needed for this discussion is "does X group believe this person, being, etc is a deity in ANY sense." I'm not trying to make "european" religions (another dubious sentiment) and traditional Afrikan religions appear the same.

to equate or even
>compare the Yoruba with the Roman pantheon is a disservice
>to the spiritual system of the Yoruba, for while YOU might
>see similarities... there are enough differences in abstract
>concepts so as to not even BEGIN to say the phrase "supreme
>being".

If there was a disservice then Yoruba people TODAY wouldn't be partaking in BOTH.

Second of all, I'm not trying to make the two appear the same (once again). The purpose of the universalization was to find a common definition and view of "Deity" as for compare and contrast and not a commonality between actual faiths.

But I guess your over the board attempt to differentiate from all things "European" won't allow you to do such a thing in any example.

not every system even HAS a concept of a "supreme"
>being in the first place. for you to say this is to operate
>from YOUR center and compare and synthesiz something you see
>closely resembling YOUR concept in another system.

Again, the rationalization was a common view of the word "Deity" (which I use as synonymous with "God").

I'm aware every system does not have a "Supreme" being but I would think every system DOES have a common centerpiece as the purpose for the religion in the first place. And by "centerpiece" I mean something (or things) that could apply to a variety of different systems. That was the only "universalization" on my part.

>then again you're probably one of the people who say,
>EVERYONE HAS A CONCEPT OF GOD, even Buddhists (who certainly
>DON'T).

It depends on what your view of "GOD" is.

your fusion of these concepts from one tradition to
>another is known as universalism. one of the first steps to
>avoid doing so is to LEARN about something from within that
>system and not from a translated or translitereated
>standpoint as it seems you are doing. once there, it's STILL
>hard to operate from the "others" center due to the original
>perspective you have.

It isn't about operating in one from the perspective of another one, but about an objective commonality.

to even use the word or apply the
>concept of "god" (in its abstract sense) to traditional
>afrikan systems is pitiful.

again, I'm using the word "god" interchangeably with "deity" which I never ever restricted to one view OR system. But as the piece in every system that makes the clock tick. Which I DO believe every system has (cultures and humanity as large really). If you can prove the contrary then please do so.

But please don't mistake that for trying to find common view IN a given deity, as in people viewing IT (a given deity) in the same capacity as a different group altogether.

yes, you can find similarities,
>but that is of use only to the European trying to understand
>and relate "another" EXTREMELY different system to their
>own.

LOL. Son, you keep pretending as if I'm trying to view Yoruba from a Christian standpoint, which I'm not and never was.

>iinterestingly enough they're practically the only group
>that does this.

hence why it is more approachable for contrast than other systems.

oter systems simply don't try to explain
>others with respect to their systems. they recognize the
>differences and are comfortable with it. europeans ALWAYS
>try to universalize their perspectives and ideas for export
>upon others.

Right.


Peace and Love
-Ren

---
In memory of my sig..

and you will realize what a goof you are making of yourself- the big 3? Whose big 3? Pagan = Local...when did this happen? Cmon money...you can't be serious.
-------------
"Everywhere is war- m'say war" -- Bob Marley

www.jru.org.jm
Gone clear...Jamaican Rugby nah ras. Mo' Fiya!


"Be intent on action, not on the fruits of action; avoid attraction to the fruits and attachment to inaction! Perform action, firm in discipline, relinquishing attachment; be impartial to failure and sucess - this equanimity is called discipling. Wise men disciplined by understanding relinquish the fruit born of action; freed from these bonds of rebirth, they reach a place beyond decay." --Teachings of Krishna

"...If it were not for them in my life I might have not realized just how dangerous Western culture is for thinking Afrikans and would have gone on to become another empty, wasted intellectualizer." --Larry D. Crawford (Mwalimu A. Bomani Baruti)

"Slaves got options...cowards aint got shit." --PS
"Once upon a time, little need existed for making the distinction between a nigga and a black—at least not in this country, the place where niggas were invented" -- Donnell A

what the hell? nothing.


>and you will realize what a goof you are making of yourself-

yeah, it goes with the territory.

>the big 3?

Whose big 3?

The majority of humanities big 3.

Dude, it's just a commonality in reference to the 3 biggest monotheistic belif systems. Calm the fuck down.

Pagan = Local...when did this

>happen? Cmon money...you can't be serious.

Yeah, sometimes I post words off the top of the dome for shock effects.

OKP Experiment part 2.


It's cool when you have too big of a headache to have a discussion not so mediocre as to laugh at, and articulate abstract words that seemingly mean nothing at all. lol.







Peace and Love
-Ren

---
In memory of my sig..

cause I wanna know too.

I had a post entitled 'a good read' that talked about this, but its gone and I can't remember the sight I picked it off of.
If I were not American, I'd say that mixing of Yoruba&Christianity is based on politics. Also according to that read, unlike Chrisitianity and Islam, African religions do not have a 'worship me only' rule.

Food/Drink PlayersCookbook Info:
To help: L9 Health Clinic http://www.commongroundrelief.org/node/242
DEADLINE: November 22, 2006
Please submit your recipes to playerscookbook@yahoo.com or inbox and don't forget PHOTOS.

*********************************

it's an ethnic group and a language.

if you're Yoruba, you're Yoruba, just like if you're black, you're black or if you're Chinee, you're Chinese. so there are Yoruba Christians, Yoruba Muslims and Yoruba ancestral worshippers and Yoruba atheists.

it's only in the Diaspora that the particular forms of ancestor worship traditionally practiced by the Yoruba are called "Yoruba religion," but that term makes little sense in Nigeria.

_____________________

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

all that's missing is nation/land and religion to describe the essential parts of a culture itself...

how could religion of a people with particular language and land allow for another religion to be adopted that tries to destroy the original one and its practicioners?

the way you put it, it seems like religion wouldn't be a part of the people... before christianity, the yoruba people would've practiced SOMETHING right? (ifa) so why was christianity so easily converted to in their particular case?

Red, Black, Green

>how could religion of a people with particular language and
>land allow for another religion to be adopted that tries to
>destroy the original one and its practicioners?

The same way it happened in Scandinavia, Germany, Poland, Britain etc etc etc.

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

"There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then look around and see someone white and feel relieved."
-Jesse Jackso

saying "the same way it did in..." is NOT answering the question SPECIFICALLY. it's just stating a similarity and not giving an actual REASON.

besides...what happens to, or developes with Europeans amongst themselves is no concern of mine in this post.

Red, Black, Green

>saying "the same way it did in..." is NOT answering the
>question SPECIFICALLY. it's just stating a similarity and
>not giving an actual REASON.

If you had even a tiny grasp on what happened there it WOULD be an answer. Unfortunately I have neither the time nor the inclination to teach you EVERYTHING, so you'll have to look into some things yourself, young sir.

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

"There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then look around and see someone white and feel relieved."
-Jesse Jackso

this is ridiculous

"Unfortunately I have neither the time nor the inclination to teach you EVERYTHING, so you'll have to look into some things yourself, young sir."

*shakes head*

aww man

u okp's are so funny

~either stand tall or sit the fuck down~mos def

"Then Columbus didn't find anything, he was simply lost. if I take a boat to England once I get there, regardless of how, can I simply rename the place...Harlem?"-Aquaman

"However, the village mentality, and understanding what worked for us before injustice, before yurugu infection, before colonialism is what will save us now. "-Firebrand

"The only thing we wanted for our country was the right to a decent existence, to dignity without hypocrisy , to independence without restrictions... The day will come when history will have its say."-Lumumba

*shakes head*

Red, Black, Green

straight up!!

Just say that you'll answer later or something...anything other than what you said.


If life isn't what you want it to be, under your control, then what are you waiting for?
*********************************************************
Recommended reading:

******Parable of the Sower- by Octavia Butler*******
Story about a hyper-empath who becomes the founder of a humanist cult created to transform the destiny of humankind

******The spirit of Terrorism- Jean Baudrillard*******
A MUST read for every thinking being
online copy @
http://awake.sparklehouse.com/downloads/papers/baud_terr.html

http://www.youtube.com/user/kimmayluv

>all that's missing is nation/land and religion to describe
>the essential parts of a culture itself...
>
>how could religion of a people with particular language and
>land allow for another religion to be adopted that tries to
>destroy the original one and its practicioners?

From my understanding, they aren't a religious group.
Is there something you know to the contrary?

>the way you put it, it seems like religion wouldn't be a
>part of the people... before christianity, the yoruba people
>would've practiced SOMETHING right? (ifa) so why was
>christianity so easily converted to in their particular
>case?

Yeah but deciding to practice something else doesn't make them any less Yoruba. I doubt they view their culture/ethnicity as interchangable with the native religion (as you are doing, for whatever reason).


Peace and Love
-Ren

---
In memory of my sig..

being that the yoruba people had (prior to christianity) a belief system...WHY did they adopt christianity. simple as that?

not that yoruba is a religion...that's not even the point. i'm asking specifically WHAT were their justifications for adopting it in light of what they practiced beforehand.

god damn people... in order to answer this question you have to 1)know what they practiced before hand. list the traditions they held. 2)pinpoint when there was a significant change from THAT (whatever it was) to christianity. 3)look for any texts or examples o people justifying their choice. 4)post them

fuck all this guessing and speculation shit! i asked for SPECIFIC REASONS!

Red, Black, Green

If you can find it:

J. D. Y. Peel. Religious Encounter and the Making of the Yoruba. (African Systems of Thought.) Bloomington: Indiana University Press. 2000. Pp. xi, 420. $49.95.

J. D. Y. Peel has written widely on the Yoruba of southwestern Nigeria; this is his third book on this well-studied ethnic group. It is the product of years of archival research at the Anglican Church Missionary Society (CMS) in England. Peel uses CMS missionaries' "annual letters" and journals—"the pride of the archive"—to examine and to analyze "the nature and consequences of the CMS intervention in Yoruba history" in the nineteenth century (p. 44). These journals, as the author correctly notes, provide sociological and historical information about nineteenth-century Yoruba society, as well as accounts of CMS evangelical work among the Yoruba. In his analysis, therefore, he adopts an anthropological and historical approach to craft a very readable piece of work on the transformation of nineteenth-century Yoruba society. In the process, he highlights the role CMS African agents, most of whom were Yoruba, played in the religious and social transformation of nineteenth-century Yoruba society. After all, about fifty-five percent of the journal accounts emanate from them. This acknowledgement of the African factor is certainly a welcome departure from the hitherto obsessive focus on European missionaries as the sole architects of change in Africa.

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

"There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then look around and see someone white and feel relieved."
-Jesse Jackso

if you don't know the answer. DON'T TALK. don't offer books or links that lead to nowhere in this post.

i asked for SPECIFIC information to GET specific information, not some half ass guesses or attempts at an answer. there are very SPECIFIC ways of going about getting these answers (for real scholars anyways), which is why i put the disclaimr in the post... i could really care less about what you people who "think" you know the answers are...unless you can give suitable, logically well thought out, valid answers to the above...then simply DO NOT POST.

as other okps have stated, and i alluded to in the post (as i referenced a poster i KNOW has the answer) there are people who KNOW how to answer this question. cats like you who simple post ambiguous answers or book titles are simply "talking" and not answering this query specifically.

my advice: consider this poster and this post stupid and LEAVE! like i said, your presence here is useless. just LEAVE the post. or can't you...?

Red, Black, Green

>there are very SPECIFIC ways of going about getting
>these answers (for real scholars anyways)

Like asking members of a hip hop website?

ROFL

Try this like Utamaraboogedybongabogo:

http://members.aol.com/ishorst/love/Yoruba.html

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

"There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then look around and see someone white and feel relieved."
-Jesse Jackso

for okayplayers reading...

when doing a CTRL+F on this webpage for the word "christian" we find one entry:

"Ironically, while in the New World Yoruba religion is in a period of modest ascendency, in Nigeria itself it is being eclipsed by forms of Islam and Christianity, especially evangelical protestantism. "

this IN NO WAY answers the question. AT ALL. apparently this poster cannot distinguish between "why" a person does somoething with "the fact that it was done". It is also very clear as to what i'm asking here, so a response like this seems to be just another google search attempt at "being a part of the discussion". sad.

also, being that there are Yoruba born Nigerians that practice christianity on this board (at least three who can give personal testimony) and others qualified to answer the query...okayplayer seems like JUST the place to ask this...plus, as stated above, others would like to know the answer to this question.

my advice to you: DO BETTER! much better.

Red, Black, Green

http://www.freep.com/news/obituaries/nell24_20030124.htm

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

"There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then look around and see someone white and feel relieved."
-Jesse Jackso

you simply want to talk and be heard.

pitiful.

Red, Black, Green

Try this one:

http://www.delafont.com/comedians/Nipsey-Russell.htm

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

"There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then look around and see someone white and feel relieved."
-Jesse Jackso

"how could religion of a people with particular language and land allow for another religion to be adopted that tries to destroy the original one and its practicioners?"

because africans are vulnerable and trust worthy
many converted, other's didn't-but for those who did i can only guess they didn't do this knowingly (with the intention of destroying the original one and its practicioner's)

-and if they did it was because the "new" religion presented itself to be superior to their own

~either stand tall or sit the fuck down~mos def

"Then Columbus didn't find anything, he was simply lost. if I take a boat to England once I get there, regardless of how, can I simply rename the place...Harlem?"-Aquaman

"However, the village mentality, and understanding what worked for us before injustice, before yurugu infection, before colonialism is what will save us now. "-Firebrand

"The only thing we wanted for our country was the right to a decent existence, to dignity without hypocrisy , to independence without restrictions... The day will come when history will have its say."-Lumumba

>it's an ethnic group and a language.
>
>if you're Yoruba, you're Yoruba, just like if you're black,
>you're black or if you're Chinee, you're Chinese. so there
>are Yoruba Christians, Yoruba Muslims and Yoruba ancestral
>worshippers and Yoruba atheists.
>
>it's only in the Diaspora that the particular forms of
>ancestor worship traditionally practiced by the Yoruba are
>called "Yoruba religion," but that term makes little sense
>in Nigeria.

Agree.
I'm Igbo and not Yoruba but I would have to agree. Yoruba or whatever tribe, is not interchangable with religion. It doesn't make you any less Yoruba or Igbo or whatever if you practice Christinaity or Islam or (insert religion here).

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Ifa the religion. Yoruba is the name for the people/ethnic group as the other poster responded. Also, in the America's Ifa, along with combinations of other traditional African religions served as survival religions for slaves. They would disguise their African Deities through the Catholic Saints which is why many people continued and still continue to claim both religions. For example, it has been reported that as many as 15 percent of people in New Orleans still practice Vodun or Voodoo today but they are also practicing Catholics.

"The problem comes when you find harangue passing off as art. It seems to me the best art is political and you ought to be able to make it unquestionably political and irrevocably beautiful at the same time."
Toni Morrison

He was alluding to this but got ignored.


*********************************************************
Recommended reading:

******Parable of the Sower- by Octavia Butler*******
Story about a hyper-empath who becomes the founder of a humanist cult created to transform the destiny of humankind

******The spirit of Terrorism- Jean Baudrillard*******
A MUST read for every thinking being
online copy @
http://awake.sparklehouse.com/downloads/papers/baud_terr.html

http://www.youtube.com/user/kimmayluv

As usual, Uta you are always asking "thought-provoking" questions that challenge our intellect. May the ancestor continue to bless you.

Empress, your analysis is on point from based upon what I know about indigenious African religions.

Uta, I'm still somewhat confused myself on this topic myself. I would like to point to a reference to an paper written by Temple University Professor Dr. Mambo Ama Mazama, "Afrocentricity and African Spirituality", Journal of Black Studies, Vol.33 No. 2, November 2002 218-234.

Abstract:

In this article, the author seeks to argue in support of the African ontological view as a valid way to view the world. Indeed, the argument in this work is that a central role of Afrocentric philosophy ought to be reestablishment of the process
by which Africans arrive at spirituality. Demonstrating that Christanity has often been the culprint behind White supremacy, the author suggests that it has gone hand-in-hand with the desacrilization of African culture.

it may draw on religious principles but has nothing to do with current events or foreign policy or the state of our world.

your voice and opinion don't matter. read another post.

Red, Black, Green

You're black. You're a moron.

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

"There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then look around and see someone white and feel relieved."
-Jesse Jackso

what is your puropse for being in ths thread?

Red, Black, Green

I feel a spiritual connection with the Yoruba, TraMond. What's yours?

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

"There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then look around and see someone white and feel relieved."
-Jesse Jackso

instead of just feeling, go PRACTICE and LIVE it...

meanwhile as i talk to some PRACTICING and dedicated cats from okayplayer who actuall ARE connected to it, we laugh at you responses...well, to put it truthly, "I" laugh, they just shake their heads and say "that guy makes my head hurt with his words" and "just stop reading thast guy". i'll take their advice.

also check response #49

Red, Black, Green

honestly, that's what my nana told me

but can you explain your connection?

~either stand tall or sit the fuck down~mos def

"Then Columbus didn't find anything, he was simply lost. if I take a boat to England once I get there, regardless of how, can I simply rename the place...Harlem?"-Aquaman

"However, the village mentality, and understanding what worked for us before injustice, before yurugu infection, before colonialism is what will save us now. "-Firebrand

"The only thing we wanted for our country was the right to a decent existence, to dignity without hypocrisy , to independence without restrictions... The day will come when history will have its say."-Lumumba

>honestly, that's what my nana told me
>
>but can you explain your connection?

I just love the word "Yoruba". I'm going to become Yoruba and learn to play the tuba and then hit the nightclub circuit and they can put "Surazal the Yoruba Wailin' That Tuba!" on the marquee. That's my connection.

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

"There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then look around and see someone white and feel relieved."
-Jesse Jackso

I guess you told him!!! LOL!!


*********************************************************
Recommended reading:

******Parable of the Sower- by Octavia Butler*******
Story about a hyper-empath who becomes the founder of a humanist cult created to transform the destiny of humankind

******The spirit of Terrorism- Jean Baudrillard*******
A MUST read for every thinking being
online copy @
http://awake.sparklehouse.com/downloads/papers/baud_terr.html

http://www.youtube.com/user/kimmayluv

you should have your own board where you can post stuff like this to feel good about yourself. DTS!

the simple answer brother is that if you do some serious research you will find that during the colonial occupation of Nigeria and its surrounding areas Yoruba was still in heavy practice before the imperialists brought their mind altering religion known today as christianity. but because of the diligence and strength of the afrikan spirit the elders and priests of the Yoruba order saw the obvious direct connection of their ancestors (orisha) and spirits within the context of this (orchestrated religion) and thus redefined or rather saw christianity for what it truly is at its core... Afrikan spirituality & mythology that was obvisouly stolen & twisted to create a religion to use as a tool for enslaving afrikans.. lest we not forget that although we are in the diaspora our brothers & sisters were also enslaved & colonialzed and are not a special againsts the evils of white supremacy.....


UP YOU MIGHTY PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Sling Shots To Ya Soul, Im Dennis The Menance Man"
http://www.SMALLEYEZ.BANDCAMP.COM <-- From The Sol FREE DOWNLOAD!
http://www.CheSingTheCool.com <- The Blog

and let that new system come in and kill yoruba people?

Red, Black, Green

brother if you look at the history of Afrikan people within the continent there are so many cases of self-destruction/enslavement... that it almost sickening to think about....WE need to stop romantizing Afrikan history and deal with the reality of our culture.. Afrikans did enslave Afrikans and doid kill other Afrikans.. and until we deal with this very disturbing issue...we will never move forward in our quest for liberation

"Sling Shots To Ya Soul, Im Dennis The Menance Man"
http://www.SMALLEYEZ.BANDCAMP.COM <-- From The Sol FREE DOWNLOAD!
http://www.CheSingTheCool.com <- The Blog

i am so sick and tired of "african's did this to themselves, and blah blah blah"

SO DID every other race/ethnicity group in this damn world

please

if you can't answer the damn question, don't answer that shit-instead of trying to disgrace african ppl as a form of your fucking cop out

~either stand tall or sit the fuck down~mos def

"Then Columbus didn't find anything, he was simply lost. if I take a boat to England once I get there, regardless of how, can I simply rename the place...Harlem?"-Aquaman

"However, the village mentality, and understanding what worked for us before injustice, before yurugu infection, before colonialism is what will save us now. "-Firebrand

"The only thing we wanted for our country was the right to a decent existence, to dignity without hypocrisy , to independence without restrictions... The day will come when history will have its say."-Lumumba

actually my brother it is this same ignorance that stifles our community.. if we cant recognize our own faults and atrocties how do you suppose we will remedy them... and oh yea... a real afrikan (conscious) brother knows when to guard his tongue..so i will practice this and ignore your obvious ignorance in the legtimate discussion of this topic

"Sling Shots To Ya Soul, Im Dennis The Menance Man"
http://www.SMALLEYEZ.BANDCAMP.COM <-- From The Sol FREE DOWNLOAD!
http://www.CheSingTheCool.com <- The Blog

where would you derive me being a male with a name like jenNjuice?

this is not about recognizing our own faults
-its about ppl like you that use that as a cop out whenever you just made an ass out of yourself..PERIOD

and don't give me that real african shit, this is a damn discussion-check the sig-

and for the record you are the ignorant one

~either stand tall or sit the fuck down~mos def

"Then Columbus didn't find anything, he was simply lost. if I take a boat to England once I get there, regardless of how, can I simply rename the place...Harlem?"-Aquaman

"However, the village mentality, and understanding what worked for us before injustice, before yurugu infection, before colonialism is what will save us now. "-Firebrand

"The only thing we wanted for our country was the right to a decent existence, to dignity without hypocrisy , to independence without restrictions... The day will come when history will have its say."-Lumumba

he's still a baby. let it go.

Red, Black, Green

this isnt a discussion this is REAL LIFE ..., were talking about Liberation not some of your silly literary banter about.... coppin out.. READ your history & prove me wrong....

"Sling Shots To Ya Soul, Im Dennis The Menance Man"
http://www.SMALLEYEZ.BANDCAMP.COM <-- From The Sol FREE DOWNLOAD!
http://www.CheSingTheCool.com <- The Blog

we're having a discussion about some real shit

i would've atleast thought you had some brain in there to follow that, but like uta said-i'll let you be, cuz talking to you is just making me feel dumb..PEACE

~either stand tall or sit the fuck down~mos def

"Then Columbus didn't find anything, he was simply lost. if I take a boat to England once I get there, regardless of how, can I simply rename the place...Harlem?"-Aquaman

"However, the village mentality, and understanding what worked for us before injustice, before yurugu infection, before colonialism is what will save us now. "-Firebrand

"The only thing we wanted for our country was the right to a decent existence, to dignity without hypocrisy , to independence without restrictions... The day will come when history will have its say."-Lumumba

what i dont get is why your so interested in attacking me.. & not the issue... hmmm (seems very european to me)..

also i apologize for the overgeneralization... i just assume that sisters or brothers for that matter dont talk to each other that way.....

"Sling Shots To Ya Soul, Im Dennis The Menance Man"
http://www.SMALLEYEZ.BANDCAMP.COM <-- From The Sol FREE DOWNLOAD!
http://www.CheSingTheCool.com <- The Blog

i was just responding to some ignorant stuff you said..PERIOD

as far as "talking to each other that way" you continue to prove how much shit your full of

it doesn't take curse words to insult someone, your condescending tone is doing quit well

that's "european" to me-just ask expertise

~either stand tall or sit the fuck down~mos def

"Then Columbus didn't find anything, he was simply lost. if I take a boat to England once I get there, regardless of how, can I simply rename the place...Harlem?"-Aquaman

"However, the village mentality, and understanding what worked for us before injustice, before yurugu infection, before colonialism is what will save us now. "-Firebrand

"The only thing we wanted for our country was the right to a decent existence, to dignity without hypocrisy , to independence without restrictions... The day will come when history will have its say."-Lumumba

my tone was by no means meant to be condescinding all i simply did was give evidence that im sure those who know & undertand will support my aforementioned statements although all ive seen from you thus far ...is your attacking & critizing of everything everyone is saying without giving any means of substantiating your stance... first explain to me why recognizing our own faults is a cop out.. (we are not everyone else).. and second explain to me how this does not directly deal with the issue at hand..

"Sling Shots To Ya Soul, Im Dennis The Menance Man"
http://www.SMALLEYEZ.BANDCAMP.COM <-- From The Sol FREE DOWNLOAD!
http://www.CheSingTheCool.com <- The Blog

don't reply to this anymore...take it to the inbox or something.

hell, i'll send you a copy of The Sex Imperative ( a book i know you'll LOVE) if you can withstand the urge.

Red, Black, Green

eh.. i wouldnt mind a copy...lol... ive been tryin to buy it from Beruti.. for the past two weeks... ill prob see him on thursday to get it from him...

"Sling Shots To Ya Soul, Im Dennis The Menance Man"
http://www.SMALLEYEZ.BANDCAMP.COM <-- From The Sol FREE DOWNLOAD!
http://www.CheSingTheCool.com <- The Blog

at Greenbriar Mall during his signing session.

plenty of copies at Medu Bookstore in Greenbriar...
...at Fihankra's today i saw mad copies (ralph david abernathy in west end)
at Mutana's health cafe on RDA as welll
and Shrine of the Black Madonna on RDA as well...

Red, Black, Green

nah.. its not i cant find it.. gotta get some $$$.....lol.... were you at the finch lecture???

beruti.... told me he wanted me & some brothers to come to his house one day & discuss his other text NEGRO.....

"Sling Shots To Ya Soul, Im Dennis The Menance Man"
http://www.SMALLEYEZ.BANDCAMP.COM <-- From The Sol FREE DOWNLOAD!
http://www.CheSingTheCool.com <- The Blog

i'd go speak with hinm on that.

Red, Black, Green

no doubt man... from what ive read thus far it breaks down everything that occurs at the "HOUSE"...

"Sling Shots To Ya Soul, Im Dennis The Menance Man"
http://www.SMALLEYEZ.BANDCAMP.COM <-- From The Sol FREE DOWNLOAD!
http://www.CheSingTheCool.com <- The Blog

:(

Red, Black, Green

yes send it to me

definatel

~either stand tall or sit the fuck down~mos def

"Then Columbus didn't find anything, he was simply lost. if I take a boat to England once I get there, regardless of how, can I simply rename the place...Harlem?"-Aquaman

"However, the village mentality, and understanding what worked for us before injustice, before yurugu infection, before colonialism is what will save us now. "-Firebrand

"The only thing we wanted for our country was the right to a decent existence, to dignity without hypocrisy , to independence without restrictions... The day will come when history will have its say."-Lumumba

but you better be ready. 10 pages into it and you'll wanna single-handedly wanna lay waste to this whole big shabang! TRUST!

Red, Black, Green

Men on this board kill me with that "he" crap!!

Why ASSUME gender on this board!!!

Now back to your originally scheduled program.


If life isn't what you want it to be, under your control, then what are you waiting for?
*********************************************************
Recommended reading:

******Parable of the Sower- by Octavia Butler*******
Story about a hyper-empath who becomes the founder of a humanist cult created to transform the destiny of humankind

******The spirit of Terrorism- Jean Baudrillard*******
A MUST read for every thinking being
online copy @
http://awake.sparklehouse.com/downloads/papers/baud_terr.html

http://www.youtube.com/user/kimmayluv

just forget about him and remember this the next time he replies to something.

Red, Black, Green

yeah

this is why i don't be posting here

friggin idiots

~either stand tall or sit the fuck down~mos def

"Then Columbus didn't find anything, he was simply lost. if I take a boat to England once I get there, regardless of how, can I simply rename the place...Harlem?"-Aquaman

"However, the village mentality, and understanding what worked for us before injustice, before yurugu infection, before colonialism is what will save us now. "-Firebrand

"The only thing we wanted for our country was the right to a decent existence, to dignity without hypocrisy , to independence without restrictions... The day will come when history will have its say."-Lumumba

and ask white peopel and americans to stay the fuck out.

it 1)irritates the "sensitive" emotional people who'll stay out because of offense. and 2)let's muhfuckas know if they say some stupid shit, they'll be challenged.

Red, Black, Green

noted....

brother but this is a very intersting topic... and as i stated above deals with both the complexties of the menticide that was implanted within all Afrikan people but also in Nigeria... and the adoption of these Christian (watered down & altered Afrikan spirituality) for some became the only way that they could reconnect the old with the New.... if you seen A GREAT & MIGHTY WALK ... by the GREAT ELDER JOHN HENRIK CLARKE he states how all religions are derivitive of Afrikan spirituality and was in a sense an attepmt to harness that energy and use it as a weapon for enslavement

"Sling Shots To Ya Soul, Im Dennis The Menance Man"
http://www.SMALLEYEZ.BANDCAMP.COM <-- From The Sol FREE DOWNLOAD!
http://www.CheSingTheCool.com <- The Blog