i'm checking out a premier text on yoruba religion and this is the first question popping into my head as i read the intro...

the text: Olodumare, God in Yoruba belief, by E. Bolaji Idowu

himself raised raised in Ikorodu, Nigeria in the early nineteen hundreds came from a family with strong lineage ties to the Afrikan diety Ogun...later became a Methodist Minister and played a key role in shaping the concept of (get this) "Indigenous African Christianity".

and this is supposedly THE book on Yoruba religion...*scratches head*

being that in 1955 the Yoruba speaking part of Nigeria was attacked by Muslim and Christian converts in an "anti-witchcraft" craze (called Antinga) in which Yoruba priests and priestesses were killed and shrines destroyed, WHY do there exist Nigerian/Yoruba Christians. This confuses me...and i'm wondering how the author could call himself Yoruba and profess to still BE Yoruba at the core while being a Methodist minister.

this is a serious question, and i'm looking for well thought out sensible, non-emotionally fueled answers. thanks ini advance.

*disclaimer: if you're not familiar with yoruba and intend to simply search keywords in efforts to "answer", cease now, for your reply will probably not witstand the followup questions. if you're an American person, don't answer, i'm too tired to even listen to yall anymore. and if you're European/white, then just close this window or just click outta this post, cuz well...you don't matter.*

for those left able to answer, "AND YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE", :) stop playing Warcraft and answer the query!

-------------
"Everywhere is war- m'say war" -- Bob Marley

www.jru.org.jm
Gone clear...Jamaican Rugby nah ras. Mo' Fiya!


"Be intent on action, not on the fruits of action; avoid attraction to the fruits and attachment to inaction! Perform action, firm in discipline, relinquishing attachment; be impartial to failure and sucess - this equanimity is called discipling. Wise men disciplined by understanding relinquish the fruit born of action; freed from these bonds of rebirth, they reach a place beyond decay." --Teachings of Krishna

"...If it were not for them in my life I might have not realized just how dangerous Western culture is for thinking Afrikans and would have gone on to become another empty, wasted intellectualizer." --Larry D. Crawford (Mwalimu A. Bomani Baruti)

and "jen n juicy" and "serpentinefire"

oh yeah! i got The Sex Imperative. inbox me your number! we have a LOT to talk about.

I am not Nigerian but many Haitians still honour ancestral gods like Ogoun through Vodou but still consider themselves catholic.
Their reasoning is that God is too busy to take care of mortals thus they can provide sacrifices to lesser gods who are closer to humans. It's the same reasoning for other synchretic religions all over the Caribbean and South America like Santeria,etc..
I would be curious to know as well if it is the same dynamic in the original religion among the Yoruba.

The same way Nubians justified theirs. By simple conversion.

Does being Yoruba (or of any Afrikan culture) mean you have to believe in Paganistic deitys?



Peace and Love
-Ren

"paganistic dieties?"

Explain this please

I take issue with that phrase as well

I smell Christian Ethnocentricism. *snif *snif...and it stanks.


*********************************************************
Recommended reading:

******Parable of the Sower- by Octavia Butler*******
Story about a hyper-empath who becomes the founder of a humanist cult created to transform the destiny of humankind

******The spirit of Terrorism- Jean Baudrillard*******
A MUST read for every thinking being
online copy @
http://awake.sparklehouse.com/downloads/papers/baud_terr.html

this should have been such an OBVIOUS inference in the original post...for if there were not converts i wouldn't have been able to even ASK the question...would i?

i'm asking for an explanation of why and how they justified converting.

or are you just talking to be talking?

>this should have been such an OBVIOUS inference in the
>original post...for if there were not converts i wouldn't
>have been able to even ASK the question...would i?
>
>i'm asking for an explanation of why and how they justified
>converting.
>
>or are you just talking to be talking?

By "conversion" I meant their belif in God IS their justification. Unless you're thinking of Yoruba (which I don't see how) as a religious group then asking them how they justify being Christians makes no sense whatsoever.





Peace and Love
-Ren

1)Main Entry: pa·gan
Pronunciation: 'pA-g&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin paganus, from Latin, country dweller, from pagus country district; akin to Latin pangere to fix -- more at PACT
Date: 14th century
1 : HEATHEN 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
2 : one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic personMain

2)Entry: poly·the·ism
Pronunciation: 'pä-lE-(")thE-"i-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: French polytheisme, from Late Greek polytheos polytheistic, from Greek, of many gods, from poly- + theos god
Date: 1613
: belief in or worship of more than one god

3)Main Entry: 1god
Pronunciation: 'gäd also 'god
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old High German got god
Date: before 12th century
1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind

africans didn't believe in God, this is a european creation. If the european is looking at the "dietites" or "gods" of the afrikan people worshipped and calls it "polytheistic" or "heathen worship" then it does so in reference to it's OWN idea of this "thing" that governs and created the universe. Seeing as how afrikans in this case don't ascribe to a "god" as defined in the above definition, then the word "polytheistic" wouldn't apply and neither would "pagan". The concept of god as definied by europeans rests within very SPECIFIC properties. African descriptions of the "governing body of the cosmos" are SO different as to not even be compared to the european concept of "god".

>1)Main Entry: pa·gan
>Pronunciation: 'pA-g&n
>Function: noun
>Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin paganus, from
>Latin, country dweller, from pagus country district; akin to
>Latin pangere to fix -- more at PACT
>Date: 14th century
>1 : HEATHEN 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic
>religion (as in ancient Rome)
>2 : one who has little or no religion and who delights in
>sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or
>hedonistic personMain
>
>2)Entry: poly·the·ism
>Pronunciation: 'pä-lE-(")thE-"i-z&m
>Function: noun
>Etymology: French polytheisme, from Late Greek polytheos
>polytheistic, from Greek, of many gods, from poly- + theos
>god
>Date: 1613
>: belief in or worship of more than one god
>
>3)Main Entry: 1god
>Pronunciation: 'gäd also 'god
>Function: noun
>Etymology: Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old
>High German got god
>Date: before 12th century
>1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a : the
>Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is
>worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe b Christian
>Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all
>as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
>
>africans didn't believe in God, this is a european creation.

umm, no it isnt. Unless you consider Romans, Greeks, Egyptians,
Aztecs, "Mid Easterners", and various other cultures European.

Didn't the Kemetians have the first idea of recognizing a monotheistic God?

>If the european is looking at the "dietetics" or "gods" of
>the afrikan people worshipped and calls it "polytheistic" or
>"heathen worship" then it does so in reference to it's OWN
>idea of this "thing" that governs and created the universe.

That's a pretty simplistic view of the situation. And in use of the word "paganistic" I didn't necessarily mean polytheism (and certainly not heathen worship) but rather "local" gods, and cultures that create their own deities for the specific purpose of elevating their own culture (or a god within self) and not in a universal sense.

Also, the "big 3" (islam, judaism, christianity) came not from Europe, but out of the so-called "Mid East" (which I believe at one time was considered a part of Africa, or was it not?) so I don't see how you could pretend as if God is a European "invention" when the concept of "God" is way older than any such things as Europeans.

>Seeing as how afrikans in this case don't ascribe to a "god"
>as defined in the above definition, then the word
>"polytheistic" wouldn't apply and neither would "pagan." The
>concept of god as definied by europeans rests within very
>SPECIFIC properties. African descriptions of the "governing
>body of the cosmos" are SO different as to not even be
>compared to the european concept of "god".

Alright, perhaps I used the word "pagan" in a very narrowminded way. Regardless though, this doesn't have anything to do with Europe or Europeans at all, really.


Peace and Love
-Ren

"Didn't the Kemetians have the first idea of recognizing a monotheistic God?"

they didn't have a word or concept withing their ideology that mimicked the concept we know as "god". if you were to look for teh word "god" you wouldn't find one in their literature. simply, of course, because this is a european term. LIKEWISE when looking for concepts similar to GOD of european usage you would find only "parts". the reason the term "god" is used in ANY way relating to Kemet is becasue this is simpy the "closest" word in this language to describe the ideas they were seeing...

if i told you i had a concept of this being that controlled the universe that was all knowing, but was neither omnipotent and omni present...would you say i worshipped a God? no. because the concept of ideas concerning god exist within narrow parameters and carry certain properties. to say that kemetians believied in "god" is a disservice to their spiritual system. it's like saying someone who eats only chicken and fish is a vegetarian!

>"Didn't the Kemetians have the first idea of recognizing a
>monotheistic God?"
>
>they didn't have a word or concept withing their ideology
>that mimicked the concept we know as "god". if you were to
>look for teh word "god" you wouldn't find one in their
>literature. simply, of course, because this is a european
>term.

I meant "god" as in a ANY deity, creator, etc. Not as to latch on to the word "god". But in the sense of people recognizing a supreme being.

LIKEWISE when looking for concepts similar to GOD of
>european usage you would find only "parts". the reason the
>term "god" is used in ANY way relating to Kemet is becasue
>this is simpy the "closest" word in this language to
>describe the ideas they were seeing...

I think you're getting confused by simple words. The focus here isn't on the specific term of "god" but rather the concept of any deity, supreme being, or whatever you wish to call it. I understand that 'god' is a European term (the reason why I used it is because we are speaking a European language) but the idea of a Supreme Being is NOT a European invention.

>if i told you i had a concept of this being that controlled
>the universe that was all knowing, but was neither
>omnipotent and omni present...would you say i worshipped a
>God? no. because the concept of ideas concerning god exist
>within narrow parameters and carry certain properties. to
>say that kemetians believied in "god" is a disservice to
>their spiritual system. it's like saying someone who eats
>only chicken and fish is a vegetarian!

Then let us (me really) refrain from using the word "god" and use "deity" from here on since you seem to view it in a narrowminded context, whereas my use of it was just another word for deity. Okay, player?


Peace and Love
-Ren

after MONTHS of explanation (check the archives), this statement:

"The focus here isn't on the specific term of "god" but rather the concept of any deity, supreme being, or whatever you wish to call it. "

is an obvious UNIVERSALIZATION. to say that "whatever" traditional afrkans "want to call it" would even ADHERE to the subtle ideas you express in the above phrase in a typical european universalization. do you know what universalization is?

using the words "ANY diety" denotes a commonality among concepts (i won't even get into specific words here) between VERY VERY different ideological systems. to equate or even compare the Yoruba with the Roman pantheon is a disservice to the spiritual system of the Yoruba, for while YOU might see similarities... there are enough differences in abstract concepts so as to not even BEGIN to say the phrase "supreme being". not every system even HAS a concept of a "supreme" being in the first place. for you to say this is to operate from YOUR center and compare and synthesiz something you see closely resembling YOUR concept in another system.

then again you're probably one of the people who say, EVERYONE HAS A CONCEPT OF GOD, even Buddhists (who certainly DON'T). your fusion of these concepts from one tradition to another is known as universalism. one of the first steps to avoid doing so is to LEARN about something from within that system and not from a translated or translitereated standpoint as it seems you are doing. once there, it's STILL hard to operate from the "others" center due to the original perspective you have. to even use the word or apply the concept of "god" (in its abstract sense) to traditional afrikan systems is pitiful. yes, you can find similarities, but that is of use only to the European trying to understand and relate "another" EXTREMELY different system to their own.

iinterestingly enough they're practically the only group that does this. oter systems simply don't try to explain others with respect to their systems. they recognize the differences and are comfortable with it. europeans ALWAYS try to universalize their perspectives and ideas for export upon others.

>after MONTHS of explanation (check the archives), this
>statement:
>
>"The focus here isn't on the specific term of "god" but
>rather the concept of any deity, supreme being, or whatever
>you wish to call it. "
>
>is an obvious UNIVERSALIZATION. to say that "whatever"
>traditional afrkans "want to call it" would even ADHERE to
>the subtle ideas you express in the above phrase in a
>typical european universalization. do you know what
>universalization is?

Yes, and thats exactly what I was doing.

>using the words "ANY deity" denotes a commonality among
>concepts (i won't even get into specific words here) between
>VERY VERY different ideological systems.

The only common trait needed for this discussion is "does X group believe this person, being, etc is a deity in ANY sense." I'm not trying to make "european" religions (another dubious sentiment) and traditional Afrikan religions appear the same.

to equate or even
>compare the Yoruba with the Roman pantheon is a disservice
>to the spiritual system of the Yoruba, for while YOU might
>see similarities... there are enough differences in abstract
>concepts so as to not even BEGIN to say the phrase "supreme
>being".

If there was a disservice then Yoruba people TODAY wouldn't be partaking in BOTH.

Second of all, I'm not trying to make the two appear the same (once again). The purpose of the universalization was to find a common definition and view of "Deity" as for compare and contrast and not a commonality between actual faiths.

But I guess your over the board attempt to differentiate from all things "European" won't allow you to do such a thing in any example.

not every system even HAS a concept of a "supreme"
>being in the first place. for you to say this is to operate
>from YOUR center and compare and synthesiz something you see
>closely resembling YOUR concept in another system.

Again, the rationalization was a common view of the word "Deity" (which I use as synonymous with "God").

I'm aware every system does not have a "Supreme" being but I would think every system DOES have a common centerpiece as the purpose for the religion in the first place. And by "centerpiece" I mean something (or things) that could apply to a variety of different systems. That was the only "universalization" on my part.

>then again you're probably one of the people who say,
>EVERYONE HAS A CONCEPT OF GOD, even Buddhists (who certainly
>DON'T).

It depends on what your view of "GOD" is.

your fusion of these concepts from one tradition to
>another is known as universalism. one of the first steps to
>avoid doing so is to LEARN about something from within that
>system and not from a translated or translitereated
>standpoint as it seems you are doing. once there, it's STILL
>hard to operate from the "others" center due to the original
>perspective you have.

It isn't about operating in one from the perspective of another one, but about an objective commonality.

to even use the word or apply the
>concept of "god" (in its abstract sense) to traditional
>afrikan systems is pitiful.

again, I'm using the word "god" interchangeably with "deity" which I never ever restricted to one view OR system. But as the piece in every system that makes the clock tick. Which I DO believe every system has (cultures and humanity as large really). If you can prove the contrary then please do so.

But please don't mistake that for trying to find common view IN a given deity, as in people viewing IT (a given deity) in the same capacity as a different group altogether.

yes, you can find similarities,
>but that is of use only to the European trying to understand
>and relate "another" EXTREMELY different system to their
>own.

LOL. Son, you keep pretending as if I'm trying to view Yoruba from a Christian standpoint, which I'm not and never was.

>iinterestingly enough they're practically the only group
>that does this.

hence why it is more approachable for contrast than other systems.

oter systems simply don't try to explain
>others with respect to their systems. they recognize the
>differences and are comfortable with it. europeans ALWAYS
>try to universalize their perspectives and ideas for export
>upon others.

Right.


Peace and Love
-Ren

and you will realize what a goof you are making of yourself- the big 3? Whose big 3? Pagan = Local...when did this happen? Cmon money...you can't be serious.
-------------
"Everywhere is war- m'say war" -- Bob Marley

www.jru.org.jm
Gone clear...Jamaican Rugby nah ras. Mo' Fiya!


"Be intent on action, not on the fruits of action; avoid attraction to the fruits and attachment to inaction! Perform action, firm in discipline, relinquishing attachment; be impartial to failure and sucess - this equanimity is called discipling. Wise men disciplined by understanding relinquish the fruit born of action; freed from these bonds of rebirth, they reach a place beyond decay." --Teachings of Krishna

"...If it were not for them in my life I might have not realized just how dangerous Western culture is for thinking Afrikans and would have gone on to become another empty, wasted intellectualizer." --Larry D. Crawford (Mwalimu A. Bomani Baruti)

what the hell? nothing.


>and you will realize what a goof you are making of yourself-

yeah, it goes with the territory.

>the big 3?

Whose big 3?

The majority of humanities big 3.

Dude, it's just a commonality in reference to the 3 biggest monotheistic belif systems. Calm the fuck down.

Pagan = Local...when did this

>happen? Cmon money...you can't be serious.

Yeah, sometimes I post words off the top of the dome for shock effects.

OKP Experiment part 2.


It's cool when you have too big of a headache to have a discussion not so mediocre as to laugh at, and articulate abstract words that seemingly mean nothing at all. lol.







Peace and Love
-Ren

cause I wanna know too.

I had a post entitled 'a good read' that talked about this, but its gone and I can't remember the sight I picked it off of.
If I were not American, I'd say that mixing of Yoruba&Christianity is based on politics. Also according to that read, unlike Chrisitianity and Islam, African religions do not have a 'worship me only' rule.

it's an ethnic group and a language.

if you're Yoruba, you're Yoruba, just like if you're black, you're black or if you're Chinee, you're Chinese. so there are Yoruba Christians, Yoruba Muslims and Yoruba ancestral worshippers and Yoruba atheists.

it's only in the Diaspora that the particular forms of ancestor worship traditionally practiced by the Yoruba are called "Yoruba religion," but that term makes little sense in Nigeria.

all that's missing is nation/land and religion to describe the essential parts of a culture itself...

how could religion of a people with particular language and land allow for another religion to be adopted that tries to destroy the original one and its practicioners?

the way you put it, it seems like religion wouldn't be a part of the people... before christianity, the yoruba people would've practiced SOMETHING right? (ifa) so why was christianity so easily converted to in their particular case?

>how could religion of a people with particular language and
>land allow for another religion to be adopted that tries to
>destroy the original one and its practicioners?

The same way it happened in Scandinavia, Germany, Poland, Britain etc etc etc.

saying "the same way it did in..." is NOT answering the question SPECIFICALLY. it's just stating a similarity and not giving an actual REASON.

besides...what happens to, or developes with Europeans amongst themselves is no concern of mine in this post.

>saying "the same way it did in..." is NOT answering the
>question SPECIFICALLY. it's just stating a similarity and
>not giving an actual REASON.

If you had even a tiny grasp on what happened there it WOULD be an answer. Unfortunately I have neither the time nor the inclination to teach you EVERYTHING, so you'll have to look into some things yourself, young sir.

this is ridiculous

"Unfortunately I have neither the time nor the inclination to teach you EVERYTHING, so you'll have to look into some things yourself, young sir."

*shakes head*

aww man

u okp's are so funny

~either stand tall or sit the fuck down~mos def

"Then Columbus didn't find anything, he was simply lost. if I take a boat to England once I get there, regardless of how, can I simply rename the place...Harlem?"-Aquaman

"However, the village mentality, and understanding what worked for us before injustice, before yurugu infection, before colonialism is what will save us now. "-Firebrand

*shakes head*

straight up!!

Just say that you'll answer later or something...anything other than what you said.


If life isn't what you want it to be, under your control, then what are you waiting for?
*********************************************************
Recommended reading:

******Parable of the Sower- by Octavia Butler*******
Story about a hyper-empath who becomes the founder of a humanist cult created to transform the destiny of humankind

******The spirit of Terrorism- Jean Baudrillard*******
A MUST read for every thinking being
online copy @
http://awake.sparklehouse.com/downloads/papers/baud_terr.html

>all that's missing is nation/land and religion to describe
>the essential parts of a culture itself...
>
>how could religion of a people with particular language and
>land allow for another religion to be adopted that tries to
>destroy the original one and its practicioners?

From my understanding, they aren't a religious group.
Is there something you know to the contrary?

>the way you put it, it seems like religion wouldn't be a
>part of the people... before christianity, the yoruba people
>would've practiced SOMETHING right? (ifa) so why was
>christianity so easily converted to in their particular
>case?

Yeah but deciding to practice something else doesn't make them any less Yoruba. I doubt they view their culture/ethnicity as interchangable with the native religion (as you are doing, for whatever reason).


Peace and Love
-Ren

being that the yoruba people had (prior to christianity) a belief system...WHY did they adopt christianity. simple as that?

not that yoruba is a religion...that's not even the point. i'm asking specifically WHAT were their justifications for adopting it in light of what they practiced beforehand.

god damn people... in order to answer this question you have to 1)know what they practiced before hand. list the traditions they held. 2)pinpoint when there was a significant change from THAT (whatever it was) to christianity. 3)look for any texts or examples o people justifying their choice. 4)post them

fuck all this guessing and speculation shit! i asked for SPECIFIC REASONS!

If you can find it:

J. D. Y. Peel. Religious Encounter and the Making of the Yoruba. (African Systems of Thought.) Bloomington: Indiana University Press. 2000. Pp. xi, 420. $49.95.

J. D. Y. Peel has written widely on the Yoruba of southwestern Nigeria; this is his third book on this well-studied ethnic group. It is the product of years of archival research at the Anglican Church Missionary Society (CMS) in England. Peel uses CMS missionaries' "annual letters" and journals—"the pride of the archive"—to examine and to analyze "the nature and consequences of the CMS intervention in Yoruba history" in the nineteenth century (p. 44). These journals, as the author correctly notes, provide sociological and historical information about nineteenth-century Yoruba society, as well as accounts of CMS evangelical work among the Yoruba. In his analysis, therefore, he adopts an anthropological and historical approach to craft a very readable piece of work on the transformation of nineteenth-century Yoruba society. In the process, he highlights the role CMS African agents, most of whom were Yoruba, played in the religious and social transformation of nineteenth-century Yoruba society. After all, about fifty-five percent of the journal accounts emanate from them. This acknowledgement of the African factor is certainly a welcome departure from the hitherto obsessive focus on European missionaries as the sole architects of change in Africa.

if you don't know the answer. DON'T TALK. don't offer books or links that lead to nowhere in this post.

i asked for SPECIFIC information to GET specific information, not some half ass guesses or attempts at an answer. there are very SPECIFIC ways of going about getting these answers (for real scholars anyways), which is why i put the disclaimr in the post... i could really care less about what you people who "think" you know the answers are...unless you can give suitable, logically well thought out, valid answers to the above...then simply DO NOT POST.

as other okps have stated, and i alluded to in the post (as i referenced a poster i KNOW has the answer) there are people who KNOW how to answer this question. cats like you who simple post ambiguous answers or book titles are simply "talking" and not answering this query specifically.

my advice: consider this poster and this post stupid and LEAVE! like i said, your presence here is useless. just LEAVE the post. or can't you...?

>there are very SPECIFIC ways of going about getting
>these answers (for real scholars anyways)

Like asking members of a hip hop website?

ROFL

Try this like Utamaraboogedybongabogo:

http://members.aol.com/ishorst/love/Yoruba.html

for okayplayers reading...

when doing a CTRL+F on this webpage for the word "christian" we find one entry:

"Ironically, while in the New World Yoruba religion is in a period of modest ascendency, in Nigeria itself it is being eclipsed by forms of Islam and Christianity, especially evangelical protestantism. "

this IN NO WAY answers the question. AT ALL. apparently this poster cannot distinguish between "why" a person does somoething with "the fact that it was done". It is also very clear as to what i'm asking here, so a response like this seems to be just another google search attempt at "being a part of the discussion". sad.

also, being that there are Yoruba born Nigerians that practice christianity on this board (at least three who can give personal testimony) and others qualified to answer the query...okayplayer seems like JUST the place to ask this...plus, as stated above, others would like to know the answer to this question.

my advice to you: DO BETTER! much better.

http://www.freep.com/news/obituaries/nell24_20030124.htm

you simply want to talk and be heard.

pitiful.

Try this one:

http://www.delafont.com/comedians/Nipsey-Russell.htm

"how could religion of a people with particular language and land allow for another religion to be adopted that tries to destroy the original one and its practicioners?"

because africans are vulnerable and trust worthy
many converted, other's didn't-but for those who did i can only guess they didn't do this knowingly (with the intention of destroying the original one and its practicioner's)

-and if they did it was because the "new" religion presented itself to be superior to their own

~either stand tall or sit the fuck down~mos def

"Then Columbus didn't find anything, he was simply lost. if I take a boat to England once I get there, regardless of how, can I simply rename the place...Harlem?"-Aquaman

"However, the village mentality, and understanding what worked for us before injustice, before yurugu infection, before colonialism is what will save us now. "-Firebrand

>it's an ethnic group and a language.
>
>if you're Yoruba, you're Yoruba, just like if you're black,
>you're black or if you're Chinee, you're Chinese. so there
>are Yoruba Christians, Yoruba Muslims and Yoruba ancestral
>worshippers and Yoruba atheists.
>
>it's only in the Diaspora that the particular forms of
>ancestor worship traditionally practiced by the Yoruba are
>called "Yoruba religion," but that term makes little sense
>in Nigeria.

Agree.
I'm Igbo and not Yoruba but I would have to agree. Yoruba or whatever tribe, is not interchangable with religion. It doesn't make you any less Yoruba or Igbo or whatever if you practice Christinaity or Islam or (insert religion here).

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Ifa the religion. Yoruba is the name for the people/ethnic group as the other poster responded. Also, in the America's Ifa, along with combinations of other traditional African religions served as survival religions for slaves. They would disguise their African Deities through the Catholic Saints which is why many people continued and still continue to claim both religions. For example, it has been reported that as many as 15 percent of people in New Orleans still practice Vodun or Voodoo today but they are also practicing Catholics.

He was alluding to this but got ignored.


*********************************************************
Recommended reading:

******Parable of the Sower- by Octavia Butler*******
Story about a hyper-empath who becomes the founder of a humanist cult created to transform the destiny of humankind

******The spirit of Terrorism- Jean Baudrillard*******
A MUST read for every thinking being
online copy @
http://awake.sparklehouse.com/downloads/papers/baud_terr.html

As usual, Uta you are always asking "thought-provoking" questions that challenge our intellect. May the ancestor continue to bless you.

Empress, your analysis is on point from based upon what I know about indigenious African religions.

Uta, I'm still somewhat confused myself on this topic myself. I would like to point to a reference to an paper written by Temple University Professor Dr. Mambo Ama Mazama, "Afrocentricity and African Spirituality", Journal of Black Studies, Vol.33 No. 2, November 2002 218-234.

Abstract:

In this article, the author seeks to argue in support of the African ontological view as a valid way to view the world. Indeed, the argument in this work is that a central role of Afrocentric philosophy ought to be reestablishment of the process
by which Africans arrive at spirituality. Demonstrating that Christanity has often been the culprint behind White supremacy, the author suggests that it has gone hand-in-hand with the desacrilization of African culture.

it may draw on religious principles but has nothing to do with current events or foreign policy or the state of our world.

your voice and opinion don't matter. read another post.

You're black. You're a moron.

what is your puropse for being in ths thread?

I feel a spiritual connection with the Yoruba, TraMond. What's yours?

instead of just feeling, go PRACTICE and LIVE it...

meanwhile as i talk to some PRACTICING and dedicated cats from okayplayer who actuall ARE connected to it, we laugh at you responses...well, to put it truthly, "I" laugh, they just shake their heads and say "that guy makes my head hurt with his words" and "just stop reading thast guy". i'll take their advice.

also check response #49

honestly, that's what my nana told me

but can you explain your connection?

~either stand tall or sit the fuck down~mos def

"Then Columbus didn't find anything, he was simply lost. if I take a boat to England once I get there, regardless of how, can I simply rename the place...Harlem?"-Aquaman

"However, the village mentality, and understanding what worked for us before injustice, before yurugu infection, before colonialism is what will save us now. "-Firebrand

>honestly, that's what my nana told me
>
>but can you explain your connection?

I just love the word "Yoruba". I'm going to become Yoruba and learn to play the tuba and then hit the nightclub circuit and they can put "Surazal the Yoruba Wailin' That Tuba!" on the marquee. That's my connection.

I guess you told him!!! LOL!!


*********************************************************
Recommended reading:

******Parable of the Sower- by Octavia Butler*******
Story about a hyper-empath who becomes the founder of a humanist cult created to transform the destiny of humankind

******The spirit of Terrorism- Jean Baudrillard*******
A MUST read for every thinking being
online copy @
http://awake.sparklehouse.com/downloads/papers/baud_terr.html

you should have your own board where you can post stuff like this to feel good about yourself. DTS!

the simple answer brother is that if you do some serious research you will find that during the colonial occupation of Nigeria and its surrounding areas Yoruba was still in heavy practice before the imperialists brought their mind altering religion known today as christianity. but because of the diligence and strength of the afrikan spirit the elders and priests of the Yoruba order saw the obvious direct connection of their ancestors (orisha) and spirits within the context of this (orchestrated religion) and thus redefined or rather saw christianity for what it truly is at its core... Afrikan spirituality & mythology that was obvisouly stolen & twisted to create a religion to use as a tool for enslaving afrikans.. lest we not forget that although we are in the diaspora our brothers & sisters were also enslaved & colonialzed and are not a special againsts the evils of white supremacy.....


UP YOU MIGHTY PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and let that new system come in and kill yoruba people?

brother if you look at the history of Afrikan people within the continent there are so many cases of self-destruction/enslavement... that it almost sickening to think about....WE need to stop romantizing Afrikan history and deal with the reality of our culture.. Afrikans did enslave Afrikans and doid kill other Afrikans.. and until we deal with this very disturbing issue...we will never move forward in our quest for liberation

i am so sick and tired of "african's did this to themselves, and blah blah blah"

SO DID every other race/ethnicity group in this damn world

please

if you can't answer the damn question, don't answer that shit-instead of trying to disgrace african ppl as a form of your fucking cop out

~either stand tall or sit the fuck down~mos def

"Then Columbus didn't find anything, he was simply lost. if I take a boat to England once I get there, regardless of how, can I simply rename the place...Harlem?"-Aquaman

"However, the village mentality, and understanding what worked for us before injustice, before yurugu infection, before colonialism is what will save us now. "-Firebrand

actually my brother it is this same ignorance that stifles our community.. if we cant recognize our own faults and atrocties how do you suppose we will remedy them... and oh yea... a real afrikan (conscious) brother knows when to guard his tongue..so i will practice this and ignore your obvious ignorance in the legtimate discussion of this topic

where would you derive me being a male with a name like jenNjuice?

this is not about recognizing our own faults
-its about ppl like you that use that as a cop out whenever you just made an ass out of yourself..PERIOD

and don't give me that real african shit, this is a damn discussion-check the sig-

and for the record you are the ignorant one

~either stand tall or sit the fuck down~mos def

"Then Columbus didn't find anything, he was simply lost. if I take a boat to England once I get there, regardless of how, can I simply rename the place...Harlem?"-Aquaman

"However, the village mentality, and understanding what worked for us before injustice, before yurugu infection, before colonialism is what will save us now. "-Firebrand

he's still a baby. let it go.

this isnt a discussion this is REAL LIFE ..., were talking about Liberation not some of your silly literary banter about.... coppin out.. READ your history & prove me wrong....

we're having a discussion about some real shit

i would've atleast thought you had some brain in there to follow that, but like uta said-i'll let you be, cuz talking to you is just making me feel dumb..PEACE

~either stand tall or sit the fuck down~mos def

"Then Columbus didn't find anything, he was simply lost. if I take a boat to England once I get there, regardless of how, can I simply rename the place...Harlem?"-Aquaman

"However, the village mentality, and understanding what worked for us before injustice, before yurugu infection, before colonialism is what will save us now. "-Firebrand

what i dont get is why your so interested in attacking me.. & not the issue... hmmm (seems very european to me)..

also i apologize for the overgeneralization... i just assume that sisters or brothers for that matter dont talk to each other that way.....

i was just responding to some ignorant stuff you said..PERIOD

as far as "talking to each other that way" you continue to prove how much shit your full of

it doesn't take curse words to insult someone, your condescending tone is doing quit well

that's "european" to me-just ask expertise

~either stand tall or sit the fuck down~mos def

"Then Columbus didn't find anything, he was simply lost. if I take a boat to England once I get there, regardless of how, can I simply rename the place...Harlem?"-Aquaman

"However, the village mentality, and understanding what worked for us before injustice, before yurugu infection, before colonialism is what will save us now. "-Firebrand

my tone was by no means meant to be condescinding all i simply did was give evidence that im sure those who know & undertand will support my aforementioned statements although all ive seen from you thus far ...is your attacking & critizing of everything everyone is saying without giving any means of substantiating your stance... first explain to me why recognizing our own faults is a cop out.. (we are not everyone else).. and second explain to me how this does not directly deal with the issue at hand..

don't reply to this anymore...take it to the inbox or something.

hell, i'll send you a copy of The Sex Imperative ( a book i know you'll LOVE) if you can withstand the urge. :)

eh.. i wouldnt mind a copy...lol... ive been tryin to buy it from Beruti.. for the past two weeks... ill prob see him on thursday to get it from him...

at Greenbriar Mall during his signing session.

plenty of copies at Medu Bookstore in Greenbriar...
...at Fihankra's today i saw mad copies (ralph david abernathy in west end)
at Mutana's health cafe on RDA as welll
and Shrine of the Black Madonna on RDA as well...

nah.. its not i cant find it.. gotta get some $$$.....lol.... were you at the finch lecture???

beruti.... told me he wanted me & some brothers to come to his house one day & discuss his other text NEGRO.....

i'd go speak with hinm on that.

no doubt man... from what ive read thus far it breaks down everything that occurs at the "HOUSE"...

:(

yes send it to me

definately:)

~either stand tall or sit the fuck down~mos def

"Then Columbus didn't find anything, he was simply lost. if I take a boat to England once I get there, regardless of how, can I simply rename the place...Harlem?"-Aquaman

"However, the village mentality, and understanding what worked for us before injustice, before yurugu infection, before colonialism is what will save us now. "-Firebrand

but you better be ready. 10 pages into it and you'll wanna single-handedly wanna lay waste to this whole big shabang! TRUST!

Men on this board kill me with that "he" crap!!

Why ASSUME gender on this board!!!

Now back to your originally scheduled program.


If life isn't what you want it to be, under your control, then what are you waiting for?
*********************************************************
Recommended reading:

******Parable of the Sower- by Octavia Butler*******
Story about a hyper-empath who becomes the founder of a humanist cult created to transform the destiny of humankind

******The spirit of Terrorism- Jean Baudrillard*******
A MUST read for every thinking being
online copy @
http://awake.sparklehouse.com/downloads/papers/baud_terr.html

just forget about him and remember this the next time he replies to something.

yeah

this is why i don't be posting here

friggin idiots

~either stand tall or sit the fuck down~mos def

"Then Columbus didn't find anything, he was simply lost. if I take a boat to England once I get there, regardless of how, can I simply rename the place...Harlem?"-Aquaman

"However, the village mentality, and understanding what worked for us before injustice, before yurugu infection, before colonialism is what will save us now. "-Firebrand

and ask white peopel and americans to stay the fuck out.

it 1)irritates the "sensitive" emotional people who'll stay out because of offense. and 2)let's muhfuckas know if they say some stupid shit, they'll be challenged.

noted....

brother but this is a very intersting topic... and as i stated above deals with both the complexties of the menticide that was implanted within all Afrikan people but also in Nigeria... and the adoption of these Christian (watered down & altered Afrikan spirituality) for some became the only way that they could reconnect the old with the New.... if you seen A GREAT & MIGHTY WALK ... by the GREAT ELDER JOHN HENRIK CLARKE he states how all religions are derivitive of Afrikan spirituality and was in a sense an attepmt to harness that energy and use it as a weapon for enslavement

i'm more interested in the specifics of how they justified it for THEMSELVES. this is not just to ask an open ended question cuz i wanna apply it to how african people are accepting a few different european imports...i'm trying to look for something within that.

i understand.. where your coming from... but i think to derive that we must delve deep into the context of afrikan spirituality... im sure as you know to Afrikans everything is interconnected... so i think we must first look at the origins and foundation of christianity....then.. we can establish the reasoning.. behind the internalization of these idealogies that appear foreign..but are nothing but a (twisted) redressing of ancient mythology....

something they did to justify and allow this "import" of european christianity into their culture turned and hurt them...yet they still practice it today. this could be considered insanity...to house the oppressor that is literally KILLING you.

if you want, you could find out what aspects of their prior spiritual system coincided with the christian beliefs being brought in. this means you'll have to first find out what they believed before the influx of christianity and then compare/contrast it with christianity.

i'm more interested in THEIR answers as to why they converted...

is thier anyone on this board of Yoruba decendance?

jen i think... and others whose names i can't remember.

i see.... i think those are the people who should be offering some support in discussing this topic...

& yes i know i am new here in the activist board..& will be prone to neophyte attacks.. im just here to gain & share knowledge that will help me to develop myself & community...

and survives today. Once again, we can't use the Webster's definition for another culture's practice- you have to allow them to define it.

-------------
"Everywhere is war- m'say war" -- Bob Marley

www.jru.org.jm
Gone clear...Jamaican Rugby nah ras. Mo' Fiya!


"Be intent on action, not on the fruits of action; avoid attraction to the fruits and attachment to inaction! Perform action, firm in discipline, relinquishing attachment; be impartial to failure and sucess - this equanimity is called discipling. Wise men disciplined by understanding relinquish the fruit born of action; freed from these bonds of rebirth, they reach a place beyond decay." --Teachings of Krishna

"...If it were not for them in my life I might have not realized just how dangerous Western culture is for thinking Afrikans and would have gone on to become another empty, wasted intellectualizer." --Larry D. Crawford (Mwalimu A. Bomani Baruti)

hallap...arent you white?

>this is a serious question, and i'm looking for well thought
>out sensible, non-emotionally fueled answers. thanks ini
>advance.
>
>*disclaimer: if you're not familiar with yoruba and intend
>to simply search keywords in efforts to "answer", cease now,
>for your reply will probably not witstand the followup
>questions. if you're an American person, don't answer, i'm
>too tired to even listen to yall anymore. and if you're
>European/white, then just close this window or just click
>outta this post, cuz well...you don't matter.*

You must really get off on this sort of thing huh? The latter part of your post reads like a personals ad...

"Young, opinionated, strong-minded individual seeks a worthy opponent in message board debate. Looking for meaningful exchange where you may express your opinion so that I may shoot it down with circular rhetoric and glossary etymologies. Only non-American, non-white, and serious inquiries need apply..."


"Mos Def has been a Muslim since 1996, yet he eats ham hocks and smokes Newports..." --Mos Def article in Untold Magazine

"Am I supposed to explain myself to you? They (Black intllectuals) act like you owe them or like you are part of this movement or something. There's no movement. Fuck ya'll artist movement. That's wack." -- Mos Def

"Spoken word, poetry, I don't know a thing about either one of them..." -- Mos Def

by Europeans.... just my way of saying "you don't belong here in this post, so stay out." *shrugs* certain opinions and ideas simply don't interest me, AT ALL. if i'm missing out on some great truth or some special enlightenment by NOT interacting with them...then so be it.

at least i'm honest in my request...

this debate has been going on within Nigeria for some time now? no?

How Christianity has altered the cultural psyche of the Yoruba, making them more of a passive people-- unwilling to challenge the oppressive force of Europeans.

I do NOT consider myself an expert on the topic in any shape or form--just an observer--

I must admit that it always puzzles me when I encounter a person
from Nigeria who practices Christianity. There are many Nigerians at the neighboring school (Morgan State) and often I conversate with cab drivers who are natives of the country.

Now don't get me wrong--I believe that people have the RIGHT to believe or NOT believe in whatever they want, but I've just noticed a few things.

1) They seem more eager to conform--and sometimes even ashamed of their African heritage--quick to explain how "civilized" their countries are--as if one would assume otherwise--

2) More likely to have undergone skin bleaching or have mothers that did so--making efforts to look less "ethnic" ie. hair style, clothing...

3) Isn't it true that many Yoruba practice both (Christianity & traditional African thought) in order to compensate for the western worlds 'one day a week' kind of worship?

I personally feel that they may have traded a more complex, spiritually fulfilling, human centered belief system, in exchange for a cold, naive, and prudish version such as Christianity--again, this is just my personal opinion.






If life isn't what you want it to be, under your control, then what are you waiting for?
*********************************************************
Recommended reading:

******Parable of the Sower- by Octavia Butler*******
Story about a hyper-empath who becomes the founder of a humanist cult created to transform the destiny of humankind

******The spirit of Terrorism- Jean Baudrillard*******
A MUST read for every thinking being
online copy @
http://awake.sparklehouse.com/downloads/papers/baud_terr.html

-------------
"Everywhere is war- m'say war" -- Bob Marley

www.jru.org.jm
Gone clear...Jamaican Rugby nah ras. Mo' Fiya!


"Be intent on action, not on the fruits of action; avoid attraction to the fruits and attachment to inaction! Perform action, firm in discipline, relinquishing attachment; be impartial to failure and sucess - this equanimity is called discipling. Wise men disciplined by understanding relinquish the fruit born of action; freed from these bonds of rebirth, they reach a place beyond decay." --Teachings of Krishna

"...If it were not for them in my life I might have not realized just how dangerous Western culture is for thinking Afrikans and would have gone on to become another empty, wasted intellectualizer." --Larry D. Crawford (Mwalimu A. Bomani Baruti)

i'm not yoruba but i'm nigerian (bini) so ill give my opinion

i would actually say that you could replace the word yoruba with the whole of africa. anyways, the way i see it is the europeans/arabs came to africa conqeured it by force. with such conquest came the imposing of their beliefs on africa. their beliefs being = culture and the way they worship being part of their culture.

now, for an african to believe and follow meant the african was given power over other africans but as always was never seen as an equal to the oyinbos. such a situation was enticing to those who had no 'power' previously and to those had already. basically africans were told, we conqured you, therefore our culture is superior to yours and our god is also superior to yours

so given up their beliefs was a small price to pay for the power (or so it seemed) they got in return. as well, they could also console themselves that they were still binis, yorubas, igbos etc. even though they didnt worship in those ways. heck, bini, yoruba, igbo etc are ethnic groups anyways.

*shrug* i do not know if this helps

seriously, though... read Chinua Achebe's "Arrow of God"...

it's not uncommon that when a people are conquered, they accept the gods of their conquerors. not only because they are forced to, but obviously, if these people kicked their asses, their gods must be stronger, right?

it just seemed that the Christian God was more powerful than all local ones, and people switched over because everybody wants to be on a winning team. plus, Christianity brought with it certain "goodies" that some would describe as "modernity"... people wanted to be a part of that.

and i was supposed to be defending my master's proposal today.

But looks like that won't happen :-(.

there's like 30 ft of snow in some places round here. never seen this much snow in my life.

be back later today.

related to yoruba language
but I guess I need to take that
to google, cuze this thread
is about something else




The OH NO sig:

"I got it from the bottom of my soul...It picks up the energy in which you emit into the universe......(pause) for though we are ships passing in this vast sea we call life ...I beacon for you oh medina....*gets on one knee* the heaven shine for us....only gaze above to see what we can become....let the heavens guide you and if not the heaven's Place your hand close to the earth and feel the tremble of my heart.....MY HEART BEATS FOR YOU....My heart beats for LOVE!!!!!!!!!!"Viagra dude

avatar:!!! little brother!!!

some personal friends of mine
who happen to be a priestess and priest in the religion
had a very long and drawn out debate with a yoruba couple
about yorubaness and christianity and ifa
and all that sort of thing
and basically this same sort of question came up...

"how do you as a yoruba person justify being christian?"

finally

the yoruba brotha made this very simple statement

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

**************************************
odo nyera fie kwan...love lights it's own path, it does not get lost on it's way home
(the meaning of my avatar)


" There is no jewel rarer than a woman, no conditon superior to that of a woman.
There is not, nor has been, nor will be any destiny equal to that of a woman...
There is not,nor has been, nor will be any holy place like unto a woman.
There is no prayer equal to a woman...."
Saktisangama Tantra (Ancient Indian Scripture)


never ever doubt a girl in the dancehall they'll make you limp home --Science Fiction

BTW, Geminis are the astrological freaks. Plus we're SMART!
heh heh. --janey

a woman w/out standards is subject to someone else's view point of love--morpheme

fuck road rage, i got stupid muthafucka rage.--pervblx

AIM--> cislandbushmama

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."

"Jesus will forgive me, Sango will not."
(((THE ESSENCE OF GROSSNESS)))


Do better??? Naw just go pray to jeebus.


LOL

i wanted to make a tshirt that said that to wear around the nigerians here in west end now... that quote says it all right there.

pathetisad!

nothing to see here....

>i'm checking out a premier text on yoruba religion and this
>is the first question popping into my head as i read the
>intro...
>
>the text: Olodumare, God in Yoruba belief, by E. Bolaji
>Idowu
>
>himself raised raised in Ikorodu, Nigeria in the early
>nineteen hundreds came from a family with strong lineage
>ties to the Afrikan diety Ogun...later became a Methodist
>Minister and played a key role in shaping the concept of
>(get this) "Indigenous African Christianity".
>
>and this is supposedly THE book on Yoruba
>religion...*scratches head*
>
>being that in 1955 the Yoruba speaking part of Nigeria was
>attacked by Muslim and Christian converts in an
>"anti-witchcraft" craze (called Antinga) in which Yoruba
>priests and priestesses were killed and shrines destroyed,
>WHY do there exist Nigerian/Yoruba Christians. This confuses
>me...and i'm wondering how the author could call himself
>Yoruba and profess to still BE Yoruba at the core while
>being a Methodist minister.
>
>this is a serious question, and i'm looking for well thought
>out sensible, non-emotionally fueled answers. thanks ini
>advance.
>
>*disclaimer: if you're not familiar with yoruba and intend
>to simply search keywords in efforts to "answer", cease now,
>for your reply will probably not witstand the followup
>questions. if you're an American person, don't answer, i'm
>too tired to even listen to yall anymore. and if you're
>European/white, then just close this window or just click
>outta this post, cuz well...you don't matter.*
>
>for those left able to answer, "AND YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE",
>:) stop playing Warcraft and answer the query!

Maybe the yoruba's actually picked up their bibles and read it and realised that the people who killed their people in the name of "christianity" where acting on their own and that it had absolutely nothing to do with God's will. To understand why some yoruba people embrace christianity, you have to understand christianity.

only ya'll say stupid shit like this

"To understand why some yoruba people embrace christianity, you have to understand christianity."

~either stand tall or sit the fuck down~mos def

"Then Columbus didn't find anything, he was simply lost. if I take a boat to England once I get there, regardless of how, can I simply rename the place...Harlem?"-Aquaman

"However, the village mentality, and understanding what worked for us before injustice, before yurugu infection, before colonialism is what will save us now. "-Firebrand

Some Yoruba people are not attached to their old traditions this day and age. The school system is largely British in structure and the Nigerian (Afrikan, in general) race for "modernity" is almost always a race to Westernization or at the very least a race to some sort of foreign ideal. For instance,a friend of mine's father (chezaray's)is Yoruba and was born and raised in Nigeria but now lives in the States. When asked if he was familiar with "Oshun" (the orisha) he said "I've heard of it. It was a river that some of the 'old' people left food in every once in awhile." "Old" is not necessarily a term for the elderly but also a term for people who practiced the "old" ways. He did not even realize that the people were leaving ritual offerings. Thus in that case he was clearing not taught the old ways and religiously was raised in foreign belief systems.

Another reason could be that Christianity could SOCIALLY offer more benefits to certain people. I'm going to universalize right now. I think that it will always be the case where a complex social group (i.e. large body of people where a variety of roles are played, some of which are solely or primarily dedicated to preserving the group as a whole) will possess some sort of system where a certain faction will be dispossessed at some level. There will be those with power and prestige and those without. In any given system, the easiest way for the dispossessed to not be dispossessed anymore, is to not follow the current regime and social order. On this level foreign ideas and beliefs will often prove attractive to the persons of lower status in a society. Hell look how christianity was STARTED!

Christianity (as opposed to Ifa AND Islam) IS the religion of modernity and so-called "forward-thinking" in much of West Afrika. Christianity and Western culture go hand-in-hand in this region therefore technology always follows Christianity.

Nevertheless, certain traditions among the yoruba people maybe less desirable to some more than others and thus any other perspective may appear attractive. One tradition of some Yoruba groups was the practice of paying a sort of "redemption"/burial fee to priests of Sango if a relative died by being struck by lightning. Lightning was(is) a weapon of Sango and if one was killed by it then the person was suspected of having committed wrong of some sort. Therefore if the relatives did not want the wrong to come on them then they would have to pay a costly price priests to redeem the victim and bury him/her. Now what if the relatives were poor? Clearly Christianity my serve as a way out of having to pay the priests money that they don't have to appease Sango's ill-temper. Surely, Jesus will forgive but Sango will not.

Lastly, being that the Nigerian colonial system owes its creation to the knowledge of its "motherland," the U.K., then its obvious which religion is the one of power.

for onlooking okaybootlickers and psuedoscholars, THIS is hw you articulate a well thought out answer.

take note.

.

certainly has helped to clarify a couple of my questions.



*********************************************************
Recommended reading:

******Parable of the Sower- by Octavia Butler*******
Story about a hyper-empath who becomes the founder of a humanist cult created to transform the destiny of humankind

******The spirit of Terrorism- Jean Baudrillard*******
A MUST read for every thinking being
online copy @
http://awake.sparklehouse.com/downloads/papers/baud_terr.html

.

I think this applies to all african ethnic groups, most of whom are either muslim or christian, who at one time had our own thing. it certainly applies to the akan ethnic group of ghana which encompasses the ashanti, akim and others. i was born into the akan ethnic group and not ONE time have family members referred to akan spiritual traditions, rituals or practices as anthing worthy of note. most have no information, as there was no education on these matters. sure they use the word nyame and onyankipo, but only within a christian context as a translation for the word god. any way, john henrik clarke said it best. "They defiled what was sacred to us, and made us laugh at it."

i think the colonial educational system that was forced on the afrikans in the name of "progress" is key. With that came the air of colonial sophistication, jobs (because a new colonial economic system was put in place), colonial prestige and their colonial religion. remember young malidoma in of the water and the spirit taken away to school, which was really religious indoctrination. all colonial schools were religious schools. so if you spoke the colonial language, you were taught their religion-- without exception. in fact many africans learned english or french by being forced to read the bible. just as learning arabic and reading the koran went hand in hand.

another aspect is the fact that queen elizabeth was more powerful than our paramount cheifs, and this was readily acknowledged in african society. what this realization did to the african psyche is devestating. if she is more powerful then her religion must be real and ours must be sub-ordinate at best or at worst irrelevent.

a real story: my father told me that the impetus for ghanaians pushing for independence was from a british shipwreck in the 1930s. he said the british sailors came into the villages bleeding and dirty asking for help en masse. he said this changed the average african villagers opinion of whites. i asked him how. he said, "up until then, not many of us had ever really seen white people bleed." this event was covered in the colonial run newspapers and african people were shocked. he said, "whenever the whites would get sick, they would go to their own colonial and military hospitals. their human weakness was never seen by the masses of africans. whenever we saw them, they were in white colonial attire and very clean." this was heavy to me. he then said after that incident with the sailors, people began questioning the legitimacy of colonial rule en masse, and the anti-colonial movement got legs.

also, the usurping of traditional healers in society with western medicine is key. our medicine men and women were openly referred to as charlatains while it was prestigious to become a london trained physician from the colonies. this was and is desired in african households over becoming a traditional akan priest or healer. the economic connections with religion were usurped by the colonizers. therefore to be viable in a real sense was to be with the winning team.

as spiritual systems only are meaningful and reinforced when practiced as a way of life, when the economic pulse of a certain way of life is shattered and replaced with another "way of life" through economic rewards and punishment, most people will chose to be on the winning team, however that concept may be defined.




Silence is golden. But protest is platinum.

With No Apology,

Isanusi

Nigerian, or Christian, but my family history is similar enough that I feel entitled to speak my piece:

>as spiritual systems only are meaningful and reinforced when
>practiced as a way of life, when the economic pulse of a
>certain way of life is shattered and replaced with another
>"way of life" through economic rewards and punishment, most
>people will chose to be on the winning team, however that
>concept may be defined.

This right here is the truth. All over the world, from the Pacific Islands to the Amazon, the arrival of the modern industrialised world has seemingly inevitably resulted in the mass extinction of ancestral religions. Ancestral religions are a product of traditional village society; when that society breaks down, the old religion often disappears with it.

it all depends on food clothing and shelter,
and you have to THINK to get that stuff, not
no praying and other bullshit people make
up to trick people into believing they are
going to get shit by putting there hands together,
rubbing some sticks, or knocking there head to the
ground.

part of any religious/spiritual system is organization and unity of large groups of people. The problem is in the methods that a given system takes to handle such matters

>it all depends on food clothing and shelter,
>and you have to THINK to get that stuff, not

Not true. Rituals are equally important in the creation of a "civilization." And you don't have to "think" very much to get food, clothing and shelter. Animals do it just fine (minus the clothing).

>no praying and other bullshit people make
>up to trick people into believing they are
>going to get shit by putting there hands together,
>rubbing some sticks, or knocking there head to the
>ground.

OK. Now what about the congregating that goes on? THat is probably the MOST important, especially when discussing Black folks. Look at the elements of the Christian Church in the Americas that have been ADDED by Black people. Obviously, "catching the spirit" is just as social as it is a "spiritual" experience. In the West Indies, going to some "Christian" Churches is like going to a club up here.

but it seems that we are finally getting somewhere.

Thanks for that wonderful insight.

much respect.


*********************************************************
Recommended reading:

******Parable of the Sower- by Octavia Butler*******
Story about a hyper-empath who becomes the founder of a humanist cult created to transform the destiny of humankind

******The spirit of Terrorism- Jean Baudrillard*******
A MUST read for every thinking being
online copy @
http://awake.sparklehouse.com/downloads/papers/baud_terr.html

*making list of okps to talk to in the furture...you're on!*

very true

but there are still traces of traditional spirituality behind the "religion"

i mean i be going to this ghanian "church" on 174, and no amount of "christianity" and all that other shit was allowing them to see and move ppl the way they did

it was more of an ancestral calling, in disguise of them praying to "yesu christo"

~either stand tall or sit the fuck down~mos def

"Then Columbus didn't find anything, he was simply lost. if I take a boat to England once I get there, regardless of how, can I simply rename the place...Harlem?"-Aquaman

"However, the village mentality, and understanding what worked for us before injustice, before yurugu infection, before colonialism is what will save us now. "-Firebrand

Although this story went down in Sumatra, not West Africa, I think it's pretty illustrative of how the conversion process operates:

My grandfather was a traditional Toba Batak (ethnic group in northern Sumatran highlands) chief. From the 1870s til 1908, he was a guerilla commander against Dutch expansion in the Bataklands. He surrendered after the Singamangaraja (=Great Lion King), the semi divine nominal king of all Batak clans (and my grandfather's brother-in-law) was captured and executed. He was baptised "Cyrus" as part of his submission. This was only a nominal conversion: he continued to practice the old religion until his death in 1963.

His children, however, were sent to missionary boarding school, where they were raised in a completely Christian environment. If they did not leave school as full-fledged Christians, they certainly became it once they moved to the big cities for employment: in the mostly Muslim cities, there is a severe social stigma attached to "heathens" (in fact,the word "Batak" originally meant "savage").

It's clear that my family's conversion was imposed by the outside world: my grandfather had no choice but to be baptised and send his children to missionary school, my dad's generation had no choice but to claim Christianity if they were to be respected in the modern world.

Having said that, I don't agree with your suggestion that it is impossible to be Yoruba and Christian, or in my case Toba Batak and Christian. Much of what makes Bataks distinctive has survived the switch from the ancestors to Jesus Christ as the main object of worship. The clans with their extraordinarily complex kinship terminoloy remain intact. Adat (=customary law) still covers all aspects of life, from birth, marriage, land ownership, where to sit at a social gathering, inheritance, etc. The skulls of the revered ancestors are still proudly displayed on special occasions, and the Batak countryside is covered in huge monuments raised in their honor.

The Batak churches tolerate and even encourage all of this because it is not believed to be in direct contradiction with Christianity: as long as the ancestors are not literally worshipped, showing them respect and observing their customs is not considered bad. The point of all these examples is to show that just by becoming Christian a Batak does not renounce all his heritage. Many things are lost, but not so many that the word "Batak" becomes meaningless. I'm sure the same is true for the Yoruba.

This is not to say that I approve of the conversion to Christianity. I just think you have too inflexible a view on the ethnic identity of traditional peoples if you think their self-identity cannot survive the introduction of foreign concepts like Christianity.

*edit*: I just noticed the dates make it seem like i'm in my 40s, actually I'm just 21. My grandfather had my dad when he was in his 70s, my dad had me when he was in his 50s. This is how a 21 year old is only 2 generations removed from someone born in the mid-19th century!

There is a big difference. One of the major differences is the particular European group in power. In your case it was the Dutch. In the case of the Yoruba it was the British. The tactics of conversion used by the British are alot more dubious than the Dutch and most of the other European nations. An analysis of British colonies would show that. Nevertheless you can still be Yoruba and Christian. The only issue would be the amount of comprise that one would have to make with oneself.

FORNICATION!!!!!!

key words: "syncretic religions" & "santeria on cuba"

What is interesting in my informal study is that African indentured servants were more apt to change their name to Christain names(euphemism for European names more so than East Indians indentured servants who by in large keep their Hindu names. This always puzzled.

yoruba is a tribe not a religion

plus "Yoruba" does not refer to a "tribe" either.

There is somthing that is being repeated on this subject that is becoming more and more clearly false with every repetition: you can be yoruba and christian at the same time. at first glance this proposition seems reliable as, yes, there are black folks who were born in nigeria and are of a certain ethnic group referred to as yoruba. some of these folks also claim that their desired model of perfection is a cultural foreigner who does not speak their language and has always looked like their colonizer. let's call the guy jesus, and his followers "christians". some of this guy's followers happen to speak an indigenous african language (yoruba, akan, etc...)

peep this: to be christian vis-a-vis european indoctrination is to renounce the original ethnic groups way of life, moral center, aspirations, ancestors and therefore to renounce yourself. the african who is stripped of his/her original spiritual understanding of his/her relation to the spirit world, cannot be a fully functioning african. the spirit and the african are inextricably tied to one another. this african who is stripped is functionally no more an african, but a shell of him/herself. is a car really a car when it is stripped of its engine, when the only importance of a car is its functionality?

imagine the christian akan person or christian yoruba person meeting his ancestors before the european invasion. imagine this christian akan person discussing his new european "sensibilities/religion" with the old folks. he would surely be an outcast and functionally useless. i can imagine the old folks asking, does this jesus speak twi? the answer would be no. does this jesus enjoy peanut butter soup? the answer is, i do not know? then they laugh and say why should we worship him again? of course this is meant to be comedic but, the question is what is an african doing with a bleached out hebrew hero. if this is his ultimate human being, and desired model of perfection, he has transformed himself out of an african reality and is consequently as useful-- in an african context-- as a crippled man trying to hunt wild animals.

to be akan or yoruba without the required deification of "self" and ancestral ways is to call yourself a swimmer who cannot swim. he has forgotten that "swimmer" is a noun that really is an action verb. this "swimmer" is unfamiliar with the water. but he has been fooled through generations to be satisfied with practicing breast strokes in the air. he knows not the water, he has only heard distant rumors of it. he has lost his context and perspective. he has lost his definitional functionality. in fact, if you throw him in the water, he will drown. the poor "swimmer".



Silence is golden. But protest is platinum.

With No Apology,

Isanusi

that helps in answering that question"

"Africa

Meanwhile, Africa did not fare much better. Here the religion was attacked on three fronts. Yorubaland was largely structured in the form of City-States much as ancient Greece used to be. To regard the Yoruba as a single nation is as naive as saying all Europeans are the same, where there are language and cultural differences between the diverse range of countries. The religion was practiced slightly differently from region to region and in different areas the orishas that were worshipped were different. Even in Ifá, which is arguably the most homogenous of the religious practices in Yorubaland, the very order of the divination signs or Odu are different between Ile Ife and Oyo. These City-States were invaded by successive waves of Fulani tribes who spread the religion of Islam by sword throughout much of the area. There were the effects of the slave trade itself where prisoners captured by warring City-States were sold to the Portuguese, Spanish and English who traded in human lives for a living. This decimated many of the religious groups and partially explains why some orishas much worshipped in Cuba and Brazil are virtually non-existent in modern day Nigeria. Then there was the effect of Colonialism itself. The Colonialists regarded the Yoruba peoples as little more than ignorant savages, children who were in great need of being 'civilized' by the superior Western Europeans who found the Slave Trade and the horrendous Middle Passage a morally acceptable practice. The Yorubas in Nigeria were forced to speak the language of their oppressors and were encouraged to give up their own language. Missionaries taught many of them to practice Christianity and to forget their own ways and religion and the populace were drawn towards the relative wealth of the larger cities where 'civilization' took a particularly harsh toll on the religion.

By the mid twentieth century, the Traditional Yoruba Religion was only practiced by an estimated 10% of the population, the rest had become either Christians or Islamic. Many of the Igbo Orisha had fallen into disuse and decay and many sacred posts were left unfilled due to lack of interest on the part of the young who were more interested in finding their fortunes in the cities and the 'modern world'. The practice of reading the merindilogun or cowrey shell divination had almost ceased to be practiced in Nigeria, with people frequenting Ifá priests or Babalawos almost exclusively.And the religion itself was having to adapt itself to a rapidly changing world, much as what had happened in Cuba and Brazil."

From http://www.seanet.com/~efunmoyiwa/africa.html