The sage whose words are ambiguous you call great.
Those who advocate discipline you shun.
With one, you treat words the way you want.
With the other, you resent having no quarter.


It is unfortunate that we need the words of the wise. Those they are essential to our beginnings on a spiritual path, they can cause problems because they must be interpreted to be understood. Because words are imperfect, every generation rewrites itself.

People love ambiguity, especially when it comes to religion. They can interpret things any way they want. If they are unhappy with the cast given to a particular teaching, they invent ways to circumvent it, which is why we have so many authorities, schools, sects.

It is no accident that the most revered sages are dead. They aren't around to correct our misguided notions, to change their teachings, or even to make mistakes that might mitigate our reverence. Christ, Mohammed, Buddha, Lao Tzu- how many of us are actually devoted to the wisdom that they embodied? Or have we made them mere screens open which we project our own ideas?

It is important to spend time with a living teacher, one who can correct mistakes and discipline you. But the object of study should not be the creation of a new orthodoxy. Rather, your goal should be to bring yourself to a state of independence. All teachings are mere references. The true experience is living your own life. Then, even the holiest of words are only words.

PEACE BLACK PEOPLE!

except for the independence part

i prefer to "free thought leading to understanding" which is different than being totally seperated

otherwise, good stuff

Peace...

https://twitter.com/onnextlevel

bismillah

however, this does not apply to those words (the qur'an) spoken by muhammad.

revelation (or divine inspiration) was sent to muhammad
in two parts:
1. the qur'an (specific wording by Allah to muhammad, to be kept separate from the explanation, by order of Allah)
2. the explanation of the qur'an (collections of authentic sayings,actions, and approvals of muhammad, kept separate from the words of the qur'an, by order of Allah)

for example, the qur'anic wording is vague on the description of preparing one's self for prayer:
the qur'an 5:6 O ye who believe! when ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (and arms) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and (wash) your feet to the ankles. If ye are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body.

but, muhammad explains separately, exactly how to prepare for the prayer:Sahih Bukhari (collections of muhammad's sayings, actions, and approvals)-Volume 1, Book 4, Number 165 :
Narrated Humran:
(the freed slave of 'Uthman bin 'Affan) I saw 'Uthman bin 'Affan asking (for a tumbler of water) to perform ablution (and when it was brought) he poured water from it over his hands and washed them thrice and then put his right hand in the water container and rinsed his mouth and washed his nose by putting water in it and then blowing it out. Then he washed his face thrice and (then) forearms up to the elbows thrice, then passed his wet hands over his head and then washed each foot thrice. After that 'Uthman said, "I saw the Prophet performing ablution like this of mine, and he said, 'If anyone performs ablution like that of mine and offers a two-rak'at prayer during which he does not think of anything else (not related to the present prayer) then his past sins will be forgiven.

as you can see, muhammad showed uthmaan the exact way to prepare for prayer, and uthmaan showed humran.

and this is the case thoughout the qur'an. its explanation lies with muhammad, and cannot be understood w/o muhammad.


now, people have tried to give certain meaning to certain verses of the qur'an, as you have said, for their own selfish purposes.
but they are incorrect in doing that.
they should ask learned muslims for the meanings, instead of making up their own.
and that's why for a muslim, it is critical to know his deen (way of life,i.e. islam), and to study and ask questions to knowledgeable persons, so he won't sin by speaking falsely about the qur'an.

i learn from a brother from libya, who has studied for 10+years, and has a doctorate in islamic law. and he, along w/ other knowledgeable brothers, have corrected me in my ways and practices, numerous times.

and i am devoted to the wisdom that Allah gave to muhammad ,to give to the world.


out.



Allah says about Truth and Falsehood in The Qur'an:
21:18 Nay! We hurl The Truth against falsehood, and it knocks out it's brain, and behold, falsehood perishes! Ah! woe be to you for the false things you ascribe.

Allah says about Moses and Pharoah in The Qur'an:
10.075 Then after them sent We Moses and Aaron to Pharaoh and his chiefs with Our Signs. But they were arrogant: they were a people in sin.
10.076 When the Truth did come to them from Us, they said: "This is indeed evident sorcery!"
10.077 Said Moses: "Say ye (this) about the truth when it hath (actually) reached you? Is sorcery (like) this? But sorcerers will not prosper."
10.078 They said: "Hast thou come to us to turn us away from the ways we found our fathers following,- in order that thou and thy brother may have greatness in the land? But not we shall believe in you!"
10.079 Said Pharaoh: "Bring me every sorcerer well versed."
10.080 When the sorcerers came, Moses said to them: "Throw ye what ye (wish) to throw!"
10.081 When they had had their throw, Moses said: "What ye have brought is sorcery: Allah will surely make it of no effect: for Allah prospereth not the work of those who make mischief.
10.082 "And Allah by His words doth prove and establish His truth, however much the sinners may hate it!"
10.083 But none believed in Moses except some children of his people, because of the fear of Pharaoh and his chiefs, lest they should persecute them; and certainly Pharaoh was mighty on the earth and one who transgressed all bounds.
10.084 Moses said: "O my people! If ye do (really) believe in Allah, then in Him put your trust if ye submit (your will to His)."
10.085 They said: "In Allah do we put out trust. Our Lord! make us not a trial for those who practise oppression;
10.086 "And deliver us by Thy Mercy from those who reject (Thee)."
10.087 We inspired Moses and his brother with this Message: "Provide dwellings for your people in Egypt, make your dwellings into places of worship, and establish regular prayers: and give glad tidings to those who believe!"
10.088 Moses prayed: "Our Lord! Thou hast indeed bestowed on Pharaoh and his chiefs splendour and wealth in the life of the present, and so, Our Lord, they mislead (men) from Thy Path. Deface, our Lord, the features of their wealth, and send hardness to their hearts, so they will not believe until they see the grievous penalty."
10.089 Allah said: "Accepted is your prayer (O Moses and Aaron)! So stand ye straight, and follow not the path of those who know not."
10.090 We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam)."
10.091 (It was said to him): "Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)!
10.092 "This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!"
10.093 We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place, and provided for them sustenance of the best: it was after knowledge had been granted to them, that they fell into schisms. Verily Allah will judge between them as to the schisms amongst them, on the Day of Judgment.

subhakallahumma wabihamdika ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa attuubu ilaika

Although it may be a serious waste of time to ask this...

BUT can this guy do anything other than copy and paste Islamic information from whatever site he is getting this stuff from?

It's like the token christian woman on Politically Incorrect who can't even THINK without including a bible verse to simple questions like "What's your favorite movie"

If he were separated from the information on the internet do you guys think he'd actually be able to respond? Or is it just me who thinks he's just hacking up new stuff he's learning in books/online after incorporating it into his already held beliefs. Then when someone does crush his statements he never responds!

I don't have the time, But if someone can fine "ONE" fallacy in the whole of these teachings he keeps posting up, I'd be grateful. Dude, Come original and stop copying/pasting everything that supports your claims. Oh, I forgot when someone gets to the core of that you hide under Allah's skirt.

I'M OUTTIE

:o

DAMN! Man, that was just wrong!

bismillah

>Although it may be a serious
>waste of time to ask
>this...

>BUT can this guy do anything
>other than copy and paste
>Islamic information from whatever site
>he is getting this stuff
>from?

yes he can. hes about to do it,......now.

>It's like the token christian woman
>on Politically Incorrect who can't
>even THINK without including a
>bible verse to simple questions
>like "What's your favorite movie"

no its not. its like providing the audience the proof of what your saying, so none of the "smartass" people (whoever they may be) can try to make him look stupid by saying that he made it up or he dont know what hes talkin about. besides, there are a lot of ppl who do the same thing, you just cant tell b/c theyve removed all headers, footers, author's names, links, etc..... he likes to leave that type of stuff, so ppl wont:
1. think he just making it up, and
2.think that they are just his ideas and opinions, and not the ideas and opinions of the most learned muslims to ever exist (if your referring to his islamic posts and not his secular one ).

copying and pasting is a good thing. unless your TRYING to write a rap

>If he were separated from the
>information on the internet do
>you guys think he'd actually
>be able to respond?

i think he would. he's just not a really, really fast typist like some of you guys are. and by the time he makes his point, a million and one things are said. he could just drop one-liners, but he could not validate his point w/ one-liners when several-liners are coming at him.

Or
>is it just me who
>thinks he's just hacking up
>new stuff he's learning in
>books/online after incorporating it into
>his already held beliefs.

probably not. he knows of at LEAST 2 others besides yourself. they probably will post their takes on your questions by the time he finishes his "original" and not "copied/pasted" post. or maybe not, who knows.

Then
>when someone does crush his
>statements he never responds!

now where/when did that happen to him? not saying he invinvcible or something. yeah,....he can get it too. btw,....there are several ?s that he left out there that noone answered, but he's not chasing after them, does he thinks hes won the arguement. but he most certainly will bring them up again in the future.


>I don't have the time, But
>if someone can fine "ONE"
>fallacy in the whole of
>these teachings he keeps posting
>up, I'd be grateful.

if you scrutinize solarus' posts, like you do his, youll probably find a whole slew of "fallacies". dont mean they are correct, though.

Dude,
>Come original and stop copying/pasting
>everything that supports your claims.

hmm, sounds good. he'll be sure to try and do that. but its so hard for him, being a slow typist and all. besides, he would rather post something that SUPPORTS "his" claims, than to just post "his" claims alone. the copied and pasted stuff helps "his" point when ppl are not accepting of what "he" says. like those "AT LEAST 2 PPL" he mentioned. and maybe YOU now. man, where have you been hiding all this time! just been lurking, huh? i understand.


>Oh, I forgot when someone
>gets to the core of
>that you hide under Allah's
>skirt.

Allah does not have a skirt. But Allah does have "kiraman katibeen". oh, sorry, you probably dont know arabic. geez, my mistake. "kiraman katibeen" are angels that record our actions and words, both good and bad..........like the statement you just made about Allah!!!

out.

p.s: as im sure youve noticed, his sig is a copy/paste job too!!!
and he knows you know all of that is just too much typing. besides, why sould he make things hard on himself. hes too smart for that. but hey, what do "I" know???


Allah says about Truth and Falsehood in The Qur'an:
21:18 Nay! We hurl The Truth against falsehood, and it knocks out it's brain, and behold, falsehood perishes! Ah! woe be to you for the false things you ascribe.

Allah says about Moses and Pharoah in The Qur'an:
10.075 Then after them sent We Moses and Aaron to Pharaoh and his chiefs with Our Signs. But they were arrogant: they were a people in sin.
10.076 When the Truth did come to them from Us, they said: "This is indeed evident sorcery!"
10.077 Said Moses: "Say ye (this) about the truth when it hath (actually) reached you? Is sorcery (like) this? But sorcerers will not prosper."
10.078 They said: "Hast thou come to us to turn us away from the ways we found our fathers following,- in order that thou and thy brother may have greatness in the land? But not we shall believe in you!"
10.079 Said Pharaoh: "Bring me every sorcerer well versed."
10.080 When the sorcerers came, Moses said to them: "Throw ye what ye (wish) to throw!"
10.081 When they had had their throw, Moses said: "What ye have brought is sorcery: Allah will surely make it of no effect: for Allah prospereth not the work of those who make mischief.
10.082 "And Allah by His words doth prove and establish His truth, however much the sinners may hate it!"
10.083 But none believed in Moses except some children of his people, because of the fear of Pharaoh and his chiefs, lest they should persecute them; and certainly Pharaoh was mighty on the earth and one who transgressed all bounds.
10.084 Moses said: "O my people! If ye do (really) believe in Allah, then in Him put your trust if ye submit (your will to His)."
10.085 They said: "In Allah do we put out trust. Our Lord! make us not a trial for those who practise oppression;
10.086 "And deliver us by Thy Mercy from those who reject (Thee)."
10.087 We inspired Moses and his brother with this Message: "Provide dwellings for your people in Egypt, make your dwellings into places of worship, and establish regular prayers: and give glad tidings to those who believe!"
10.088 Moses prayed: "Our Lord! Thou hast indeed bestowed on Pharaoh and his chiefs splendour and wealth in the life of the present, and so, Our Lord, they mislead (men) from Thy Path. Deface, our Lord, the features of their wealth, and send hardness to their hearts, so they will not believe until they see the grievous penalty."
10.089 Allah said: "Accepted is your prayer (O Moses and Aaron)! So stand ye straight, and follow not the path of those who know not."
10.090 We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam)."
10.091 (It was said to him): "Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)!
10.092 "This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!"
10.093 We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place, and provided for them sustenance of the best: it was after knowledge had been granted to them, that they fell into schisms. Verily Allah will judge between them as to the schisms amongst them, on the Day of Judgment.

subhakallahumma wabihamdika ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa attuubu ilaika

look here

if someone doesn't like your posts (or anyone else's): don't read/reply

period.

a word of advice to all: handle your business, and don't try to appease/justify yourself to folk who take potshots.

it's pointless/tiring and has no value because it isn't going to stop the rain from falling

this is a message board, we don't all have to agree, like each other or do anything beyond be civil (cause i said so, and i can) and follow the guidelines (because that's what they are there for)

y'all wear me OUT sometimes trying to clown others (beyond what is fair as "funnin'") when you got a big red nose on and your name is bozo

Sorry abduhu, I was wrong. Sincerely.

in the immortal words of the dopest m.c. to ever come out, "It's All Good!".-m.c. hammer

now back to our regularly scheduled program.

subhakallahumma wabihamdika ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa attuubu ilaika

"if you scrutinize solarus' posts, like you do his, youll probably find a whole slew of "fallacies". dont mean they are correct, though."

Am I one of those two people you mentioned?

I'm just happy to know that I'm on your mind

I'm jealous of all the attention you give Allah

Or should I say A.lien L.ifeform L.iving off A.frikan H.umanity.}>

Your personal okaystalker,
The Solar I(eye) C(see) E(equality)
or
The Solar U(universal) S(self/savior)



"Activism is the practice of using an internal, self-determining source of power to live one's life and/or enact some sort of change. Power is the ability to define reality, while self-determination is to decide or define one's self. Therefore activism, is not simply something done to right some wrong or to fight some cause but rather it is a way of life. Activism is the way of life where one can define self and change anything that may impede or control the reality that one chooses to live."-Solarus

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

Allah says about Truth and Falsehood in The Qur'an:
21:18 Nay! We hurl The Truth against falsehood, and it knocks out it's brain, and behold, falsehood perishes! Ah! woe be to you for the false things you ascribe.

Allah says about Moses and Pharoah in The Qur'an:
10.075 Then after them sent We Moses and Aaron to Pharaoh and his chiefs with Our Signs. But they were arrogant: they were a people in sin.
10.076 When the Truth did come to them from Us, they said: "This is indeed evident sorcery!"
10.077 Said Moses: "Say ye (this) about the truth when it hath (actually) reached you? Is sorcery (like) this? But sorcerers will not prosper."
10.078 They said: "Hast thou come to us to turn us away from the ways we found our fathers following,- in order that thou and thy brother may have greatness in the land? But not we shall believe in you!"
10.079 Said Pharaoh: "Bring me every sorcerer well versed."
10.080 When the sorcerers came, Moses said to them: "Throw ye what ye (wish) to throw!"
10.081 When they had had their throw, Moses said: "What ye have brought is sorcery: Allah will surely make it of no effect: for Allah prospereth not the work of those who make mischief.
10.082 "And Allah by His words doth prove and establish His truth, however much the sinners may hate it!"
10.083 But none believed in Moses except some children of his people, because of the fear of Pharaoh and his chiefs, lest they should persecute them; and certainly Pharaoh was mighty on the earth and one who transgressed all bounds.
10.084 Moses said: "O my people! If ye do (really) believe in Allah, then in Him put your trust if ye submit (your will to His)."
10.085 They said: "In Allah do we put out trust. Our Lord! make us not a trial for those who practise oppression;
10.086 "And deliver us by Thy Mercy from those who reject (Thee)."
10.087 We inspired Moses and his brother with this Message: "Provide dwellings for your people in Egypt, make your dwellings into places of worship, and establish regular prayers: and give glad tidings to those who believe!"
10.088 Moses prayed: "Our Lord! Thou hast indeed bestowed on Pharaoh and his chiefs splendour and wealth in the life of the present, and so, Our Lord, they mislead (men) from Thy Path. Deface, our Lord, the features of their wealth, and send hardness to their hearts, so they will not believe until they see the grievous penalty."
10.089 Allah said: "Accepted is your prayer (O Moses and Aaron)! So stand ye straight, and follow not the path of those who know not."
10.090 We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam)."
10.091 (It was said to him): "Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)!
10.092 "This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!"
10.093 We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place, and provided for them sustenance of the best: it was after knowledge had been granted to them, that they fell into schisms. Verily Allah will judge between them as to the schisms amongst them, on the Day of Judgment.

subhakallahumma wabihamdika ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa attuubu ilaika

Greetings,

Interesting What made you write that? The beginning part is Zen? I presume Though provoking

The sage whose words are ambiguous you call great.
Those who advocate discipline you shun.
With one, you treat words the way you want.
With the other, you resent having no quarter.


The first stanza reminds me of how people can lose themselves and still rely on the information of the west. specifically nutrition. so much was said in the vegetarian posts on just surface regurgitated data that i know people don't really know what they're talking about which is why when their information is scrutinized they shut up and never respond. western information concerning nutrition is contradictory within itself so in reality people can say anything, be refuted, then come up with another answer that will justify their claim. SEE anything posted by Marinera

The second stanza reminds me that there are those out there that call for action which requires discipline, something activists all have, but those who don't fear. to say one was vegetarian and stopped because it was too hard or couldn't resist cravings or was nutrient deficient, is just sad on the individual's part not the lifestyle. this is proven by all the healthy vegans like ourselves. simply put "if you aren't now, you never were" don't just make excuses. SEE posts by MAHI

the third stanza gets on the idea of people easily manipulationg the rhetorical nature of western talk/information to fufill their ideology regardless of whether its true or not TO THEMSELVES and how often i see it happen here. SEE posts by Yusuf

the last stanza shows how people react to those people described in the second part, those having the discipline to ACT not only TALK. a book will only take you so far, people can read on and on how a vegetarian diet is better but only 3 or 4 will ACTUALLY do it. SEE post by blessnm

PEACE

Greetings,

Allrighty then... I feel you though As do some others I again would assume But to come out and say it, Calling people out like that?! You're might be seen as a Steve Cokely in a minute.

I definitely agree after reading those posts though. Gotta go now.

Blessings All

I actually like the name calling...
If I am making a fool of myself, and I do often, call me out..
please...

peace...

https://twitter.com/onnextlevel

no, not really, i could see it sounding that way, look at it moreso as reference

"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

funny. it seems as though you target muslims most of all. see mahi and yusef are muslim. in islam we dont not deem haram/forbidden what Allah has not deemed forbidden. I know you do not like Allah or muslims for that matter but that is a fact. there are muslims who go almost a year without red meat and some go longer than that because some foods are not available in the islamicly acceptable standard. this is a blessing from Allah in my view because people are not active enough in this society to be eating the way that they do. this is my opinion.

we are to live our lives by the decree of Allah and the example of Muhammad(peace be upon him). that will NEVER change wether you like it or not. Islam covers everything in life and muslims should address life islamically.

when a person hates a thing, they are likely to stay away from it.

when a person hates a people, he is likely to stay away from those people.

when a person cares for people, he addresses them carefully

MAKE A DECISION.

if that's just the way it seems, so be it. i don't care. (especially since it isn't true)

and the whole "not eat what allah has forbidden":

i can get with that, recently i had to accept that you can never expect people to live the same standards as oneself. i can never ask people of a tradition that eats meat to change, even if eating meat gets worse and worse on the planet.

abduhu once said, "don't judge islam by muslims, judg muslims by islam"

he also made a comment about the state of america, essentially judging the gross state of this culture by "his" standards, not the gross standards americans set for themselves (why, because they're substandard). i do the same when i judge islamic culture. i "can" judge muslims by their own standards, but i judge my surroundings by "my" standards. not that i attack muslims, but those standards are nowhere near coming close to what i've set for myself. peace


"REAL RECOGNIZE REAL, and even more than that, the fake, they REALLY REALLY recognize REAL!" -BlackThought

____________________________
"the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks

.