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Lobby General Discussion topic #13381047

Subject: "But we don't do that same de-coupling in the United States" Previous topic | Next topic
Walleye
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15523 posts
Tue Apr-28-20 02:03 PM

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23. "But we don't do that same de-coupling in the United States"
In response to In response to 20


          

We joined the war in Europe similarly late and with similar self-interest, but didn't accomplish or lose as much. So why is our heroic intervention in WWII an acceptable source of national mythology and not theirs? I'm actually teaching a very remedial class in 20th century history right now and one of the points that I'm trying to drive home is that trying to find moments where you say "the USSR was acting based on national self-preservation in this case" and "the USSR was acting based on ideology in this case" sort of misses the point when you remember they were figuring out on the fly what it meant to have a modern, bounded nation state based on a fundamentally internationalist ideology.

Past that, I think you're mischaracterizing the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. It reads like two major powers who were aware that their objectives for Eastern Europe were going to collide, violently, sooner rather than later and wanted to put it off for as long as possible. It was a disastrous concession to the Nazis, but it wasn't friendship.

It's also worth arguing that maybe you should widen your scope as long as we're arguing about whether there is a natural, active opposition between fascism and communism. World War II wasn't the only grounds for the Soviet Union to act on anti-fascism as a goal - and it wasn't the only time that it did. The USSR sent thousands of people to fight for the Spanish republic in the Spanish Civil War,just as the Nazis sent their support for the Nationalists. We can see that as a proxy war with self-preservation at stake or we can see that as an ideological conflict, but I think the correct answer is that both sides understood it as both of those things. If you want another example, very early in the existence of the Soviet Union, Lenin offered vocal support and advice for the Bavarian Soviet Republic in 1919, before the Bavarian communists were smashed to pieces by the proto-fascist Freikorps - many of which would become literal Nazis as soon as it was available as a political option.

So, I agree that I'm romanticizing their involvement, but don't view that as a misunderstanding of the events in play. Look at photos from the Battle of Berlin. Their involvement *was* romantic - at least as much as war can possibly be - and as one last point I think it's also worth taking a different, bottom-up perspective that includes the huge number of communist partisans that were independent of the USSR who took up arms against fascists in the 30's and 40's. Stalin vs. Hitler isn't the only way to look at this, and there are millions of dead communists who entered this struggle independent of that top-down conflict.

______________________________

"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"

--Walleye's Dad

  

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It's the 75th anniversary of Mussolini's death [View all] , Walleye, Tue Apr-28-20 08:23 AM
 
Subject Author Message Date ID
i got some down time, i'll bite. Why should any of us on OKP care
Apr 28th 2020
1
what an odd stance. the poster is presenting history. an observation
Apr 28th 2020
2
Yeah, the photos are something else
Apr 28th 2020
7
stance? not a stance. a question. please settle down.
Apr 28th 2020
15
      asking someone: 'feed me a position!'. is odd to me.
Apr 28th 2020
18
      stop being weird fam. this is where I spend my down time.....
Apr 28th 2020
21
           i can be 'weird' if i want. the fuck?
Apr 28th 2020
22
           Why you poasting like it's 2008? It's 2020, this ain't that kinda party ...
Apr 28th 2020
24
                way to silly it up by stating the year in which i joined.
Apr 28th 2020
26
           I didn't really think it was an odd question
May 01st 2020
41
      also, stance doesn't mean 'up in arms'. it's simply a position.
Apr 28th 2020
19
It's more than fine not to care
Apr 28th 2020
3
      Thank you for the very thorough response!
Apr 28th 2020
4
      I'm always intrigued by US, ahistorial, views about the war anod "who" w...
Apr 28th 2020
5
      And folks will pretend your first point somehow doesn't count
Apr 28th 2020
8
           Don't wanna derail, but it seems like you're romanticizing USSR's motiva...
Apr 28th 2020
20
               
                     You write very well
Apr 28th 2020
27
                     I think it's near impossible *and* we should do it anyhow
Apr 28th 2020
29
                     wrestling coaches almost always have reactionary political instincts
Apr 28th 2020
30
                     Well said. It's extremely complicated.
Apr 28th 2020
28
                          And the complexity is the fun part
Apr 28th 2020
32
                               Ha yep. Fun/interesting, and endlessly frustrating too.
Apr 28th 2020
33
      *fire emojis*
Apr 28th 2020
14
Got a song out of it at least
Apr 28th 2020
6
I got a good beginners introduction to Mussolini with this Podcast
Apr 28th 2020
9
Shit, this looks good
Apr 28th 2020
11
Checked the Ivan The Terrible pod yesterday. Real life Game of Thrones.....
Apr 29th 2020
38
I was incredibly into Russian History when I was sixteen
Apr 29th 2020
39
Just started listening to this - thanks.
Apr 29th 2020
40
I wonder how popular it would be to hang criminal bodies in public in th...
Apr 28th 2020
10
That's a big part of why I think this is important
Apr 28th 2020
12
      Our system has diffused responsibility so much and made everything legal
Apr 29th 2020
36
           Exactly
Apr 29th 2020
37
Just became familiar with this through Celtic vs. Lazio
Apr 28th 2020
13
That's extremely good
Apr 28th 2020
16
      Nothing from florida could ever be Maoist. From rednecks
Apr 28th 2020
17
           Good call - plus, I forgot about the Packers
Apr 28th 2020
25
                ah what a waste of a specialty
Apr 28th 2020
31
is there a decent movie on this?
Apr 28th 2020
34
That's a really good question!
Apr 28th 2020
35

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