Such an exceptional line. And not at all wrong in the context of the debate.
JJ's just smarter than a lot of these ESPN blowhards. Funnier too. He's got a great career ahead of him in media if he doesn't get fed up with the nonsense, lol.
4. "That’s because they are." In response to Reply # 1 Wed Apr-20-22 01:15 PM by allStah
1960s muscle cars were the first and greatest of their time. Now we got new muscle cars with computerized features making them the best of this era, but the original muscle cars will always be revered as classics.
Bob Cousy is a 1960s muscle car.
ALL HAIL THE KING of LOSING: LEBRON Bulls | Bears | White Sox | Yankees | Notre Dame | Illinois | Chelsea | Real Madrid
20. "That was the skillset of that time." In response to Reply # 9 Wed Apr-20-22 03:17 PM by allStah
go see what the long jump use to look like or how passing in football was before the late 60s.
TVs didn’t have remotes. You had to get up and turn a knob to change the channel.
Also, the rules didn’t allow for crossing the ball over or shifting the ball. The rules were more strict. Some would say that the way players dribble now is cheating. The ball had to constantly dribble with ZERO pause or hesitation.
3. "No one cares about JJ Reddick." In response to Reply # 0
His points or perceptions are irrelevant, and don’t prove anything. There just his takes. Period. He isn’t even a hall of famer.
I never judge eras. It’s like when people say we didn’t have the technology of your time, of course you didn’t, but you had the latest technology of your time. It’s evolution .
If Cousy existed in this era he would play the way players play now, and if Curry existed in Cousy’s era he would play like the players of that era.
Those plumbers and firefighters were the great athletes of their time, and athletes had to work regular jobs because they weren’t paid handsomely. That makes them even greater.....
Today’s players couldn’t imagine doing something like that. But a lot of athletes before the late 70s/ 80s held blue collar jobs in the offseason. Just like athletes went to war and served in the army.
ALL HAIL THE KING of LOSING: LEBRON Bulls | Bears | White Sox | Yankees | Notre Dame | Illinois | Chelsea | Real Madrid
5. "A whole bunch of saying something to say nothing. " In response to Reply # 3 Wed Apr-20-22 01:27 PM by blueeclipse
This is way off base.
The real argument is about athleticism and talent.
Not about who would have worked a second job or served in the military.
The standards are when were the best athletes ALLOWED TO PLAY.
When did white people allow black athletes to play in mass?
That's when everything changed and that's the only point.
If you send Steph Curry back he would dominate because he's a better athlete. Cousy today would probably be riding the end of the bench or may not even be in the league.
JJ can speak on this all he wants because he played and has a insider perspective. WTF does him not being a HOF have to do with his opinion?
6. "If you were to send Curry back in time? " In response to Reply # 5 Wed Apr-20-22 01:43 PM by allStah
This isn’t a Micheal J Fox film. Speak real life.
The athletes of that era had great athleticism for that era, black or white. Cousy was one of the first basketball magicians doing insane passes with the ball,and that led to Pistol Pete , which led to Magic Johnson, which led to Jason Kidd, etc
Black and white players weren’t doing crossovers or switch handed dribbles, because the skillset didn’t exist yet, same thing with shooting threes, it didn’t exist.
Cousy skillset is based on the era he was born in and so is Curry’s.
Julius jumped high as hell, then Mike came and jumped higher, and then Vince came and jumped higher, and then Gordon and Zach came and jumped higher.
It’s called evolution.
Stop with the hypotheticals and science fiction to push a bullshit narrative and to shit on someone who did something that you couldn’t and can’t do.
ALL HAIL THE KING of LOSING: LEBRON Bulls | Bears | White Sox | Yankees | Notre Dame | Illinois | Chelsea | Real Madrid
8. "RE: If you were to send Curry back in time? " In response to Reply # 6 Wed Apr-20-22 01:56 PM by blueeclipse
You sound salty and sensitive.
My rebuttle is based entirely on your premise of if Curry "existed" back in the day. I didn't say anything about a time machine. I'm just saying Curry as an athlete. You can put whatever stipulations on it you want. Whether he would shoot threes or know how to crossover. Whatever.
Evolution or not we will never know how black players would have dominated the early NBA because they weren't allowed to play in mass.
Putting the best players on the court is part of this "evolution" as well.
We should side eye a lot of these 1940's/50's/60's players and their accomplishments because they weren't playing in a era where the best athletes could play.
10. "It would have been the same as Pistol Pete and Larry Bird" In response to Reply # 8
and Jerry West who held their own and then some against black players.
Bob Cousy’s talent was undeniable, and he had no control over who he played against. And Bill Russell and Wilt were a part of his era. Bill Russell was his damn teammate, and there were other black players in the league. Bob did play against and with black players.
You making this into some type of culture war that has nothing to do with the players.
You make ZERO sense.
Yes, black players should have been allowed to play from the very beginning, but that has shit to do with Bob Cousy skillset and talent. Bob Cousy spoke out against racism and befriend his black teammates
You didn’t think this through.
ALL HAIL THE KING of LOSING: LEBRON Bulls | Bears | White Sox | Yankees | Notre Dame | Illinois | Chelsea | Real Madrid
28. "I did think this through....." In response to Reply # 10
You did not.
You decided to try to disrespect JJ Redick for reasons unknown and discredit his opinion which honestly probably matters more than anyone in this thread.
You then tried to make this about defending Bob Cousy against the reality that he didn't play against the most talented players. My issues is not with Cousy. I didn't say one bad word about him.
My issue is with the hypocritical measuring of athletes who played in a non inclusive era.
Out of all the arguments comparing eras......this one to me is the most important.
What JJ Redick said not only applied to the lack of talent and skilled players that Cousy was playing against but the lack of talented skilled black athletes as well.
There's no getting around it. Keep trying to talk around it if you want. It happened. And it is bullshit.
That applies to Bill Russell and Wilt as well. But I guarantee you that they acknowledge it.
There weren't more than 4 black players on any team in the NBA until the mid to late 60's. The Celtics were the first to have 5 in 1963.
31. "No. You didn’t think this through, because you’re talking out " In response to Reply # 28 Wed Apr-20-22 04:49 PM by allStah
of your ass.
Do you not understand that Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, and Elgin Baylor played during that same era, as well as Chuck Cooper.
Also, similar to MLB in the 20s,30s 40s and 50s, basketball teams would do basketball tours where they played against black basketball teams. Bob Cousy was a star in those games!
It’s like when Babe Ruth played against negro league players in the 20s because he appreciated black players...Bob Cousy did the same thing.
Know your history before you open your mouth. You’re wrong and JJ Reddick is wrong.
ALL HAIL THE KING of LOSING: LEBRON Bulls | Bears | White Sox | Yankees | Notre Dame | Illinois | Chelsea | Real Madrid
21. "The argument you were making was based on their assist totals" In response to Reply # 19
and finals appearances... and they're all very comparable in that regard. So for you to go from "Stockton is number 1 in assists. Kidd is number 2. Paul (who is number 3), doesn't belong in the conversation" is just really poor logic. That's all.
--
"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."
26. "That was in combination with all their other accomplishments, " In response to Reply # 21 Wed Apr-20-22 03:38 PM by allStah
which is clearly stated.
Translation: Paul hasn’t done or accomplished enough.
And what I was also pointing out is that Stockton/ Kidd are ahead of Paul in numbers, finals accomplishments, but he would remove them to go with Paul.
Basically, he makes zero sense.
ALL HAIL THE KING of LOSING: LEBRON Bulls | Bears | White Sox | Yankees | Notre Dame | Illinois | Chelsea | Real Madrid
22. "He’s very easily on the same level as Kidd. " In response to Reply # 16 Wed Apr-20-22 03:13 PM by Ryan M
The title that Kidd won as the 3rd best player in his twilight is not the separation you think it is.
12x all star 4x first team 5x second team 1x third team 7x first team defense 2x second team defense 5x assists titles 7x steals title 3rd all time in assists 4th all time in steals
Plus a finals appearance and a team primed to win this year…it’s a resume. You can argue CP3s team lost 1-3 series they should have won. That is not underachieving.
Kidd:
10x all star 5x first team 1x second team 4x first team defense 5x second team defense 5x assist titles 6x steals leader 2nd all time assists 2nd all time steals 1 title
And if we’re keeping it a buck? Both those resumes are better than Stocktons, Assist total aside.
27. "Did you read what you wrote?" In response to Reply # 22 Wed Apr-20-22 03:53 PM by allStah
“Plus a finals appearance and a team primed to win this year…it’s a resume. You can argue CP3s team lost 1-3 series they should have won. That is not underachieving.”
He lost. That’s underachieving and choking.
Kidd was the general of that Dallas team and the leader, Dirk didn’t win one without him. You would down play it though.
ALL HAIL THE KING of LOSING: LEBRON Bulls | Bears | White Sox | Yankees | Notre Dame | Illinois | Chelsea | Real Madrid
30. "Then Stockton underachieved." In response to Reply # 27
Anyway.
I hate getting into these arguments as far as rankings go. CP3 is in the discussion for Top 5 in the same way Lebron is in the discussion for top 3. Whether you believe it or not - it's not RIDICULOUS. It's also super subjective, obviously.
32. "Chris Paul is one of the biggest chokers in NBA history, " In response to Reply # 30
Stockton had an excuse. He ran into Jordan in both title games. Paul has choked off several times in the 1st round, and there were games where he completely gave up.
Plus let’s look at Stockton’s iron man history. Availability matters as well. John Stockton played in 15 seasons where he played all 82 games, and he played all 82 games in 7 consecutive seasons
Jason Kidd had 10 seasons where he played 80 or more games
Chris Paul only has one season where he played all 82 games.....one season. and 3 seasons where he played 80 or more games.
Like I said, he isn’t in the same universe as those guys.
ALL HAIL THE KING of LOSING: LEBRON Bulls | Bears | White Sox | Yankees | Notre Dame | Illinois | Chelsea | Real Madrid
34. "Chris Paul's playoff record:" In response to Reply # 32
2008 vs Dallas - 4-1 Win (NO was favored) 2008 vs Spurs - 3-4 Loss (not sure who was favored here but they both win 56 games) 2009 vs Denver - 1-4 Loss (Denver was favored) 2011 vs Lakers - 2-4 Loss (LAL was favored) 2012 vs Grizzlies - 4-3 Win (Clips were favored) 2012 vs Spurs - 0-4 Loss (SA was favored) 2013 vs Grizzlies - 2-4 Loss (both teams won 56 games) 2014 vs Warriors - 4-3 Win (Clips were favored) 2014 vs Spurs - 4-3 Win (Clips were favored) 2014 vs Rockets - 3-4 Loss (Both won 56 - I think Clips were favored tho) 2016 vs Blazers - 2-4 Loss (Clips were favored) 2017 vs Jazz - 3-4 Loss (both won 51 games) 2018 vs Wolves - 4-1 Win (Houston was favored) 2018 vs Jazz - 4-1 Win (Houston was favored) 2018 vs Warriors - 3-4 Loss (Warriors were favored, but this was a choke even if he didnt play games 6 and 7) 2019 vs Jazz - 4-1 win (Houston was favored) 2019 vs Warriors - 2-4 loss (Warriors were favored) 2020 vs Rockets - 3-4 loss (Houston was favored)
And then his Phoenix career. So - there are 2 or 3 series you can maybe point to that he SHOULD have won, but his "underachieving" status is so beyond exaggerated.
36. "Dogg, you're arguing longevity." In response to Reply # 35 Wed Apr-20-22 06:44 PM by Ryan M
Chris Paul is leading a team in his 17th season to a 1 seed.
He's 36 and is outside the top 50 in games played and yet this is his resume. He's had injuries - absolutely. Similar to Nash in that regard. But...look at the head to head shit. Titles and MVPs (regular season and Finals) ABSOLUTELY matter...but Kidd and Stockton have 1 title and no MVPs between them. CP3 has a similar resume and honestly...I'm not doing the Zeke comparison but his titles outweigh his longevity, clearly.
Oh, and DEFLECTION? Please argue your "one of the biggest chokers in NBA history" theory. I'm dying to know - given I actually came with facts.
41. "Yes. He is similar to Nash, but not " In response to Reply # 36 Wed Apr-20-22 08:55 PM by allStah
Stockton or Kidd.
Choker, injury prone, and nut puncher.
Those clippers teams are known as the biggest chokers in NBA history, but let you re-write the story.
Hell, you even talked about it as a lakers fan during those early exits.
Look at you now.
Fun Fact: Chris Paul is the first player in NBA history to lose not one, not two, not three, but FOUR best-of-seven series in which his team had a ‘2-0’ lead.
Just take the L
ALL HAIL THE KING of LOSING: LEBRON Bulls | Bears | White Sox | Yankees | Notre Dame | Illinois | Chelsea | Real Madrid
43. "all that and 2018 was his first time getting out of the second round..." In response to Reply # 34
>2008 vs Dallas - 4-1 Win (NO was favored) >2008 vs Spurs - 3-4 Loss (not sure who was favored here but >they both win 56 games) >2009 vs Denver - 1-4 Loss (Denver was favored) >2011 vs Lakers - 2-4 Loss (LAL was favored) >2012 vs Grizzlies - 4-3 Win (Clips were favored) >2012 vs Spurs - 0-4 Loss (SA was favored) >2013 vs Grizzlies - 2-4 Loss (both teams won 56 games) >2014 vs Warriors - 4-3 Win (Clips were favored) >2014 vs Spurs - 4-3 Win (Clips were favored) >2014 vs Rockets - 3-4 Loss (Both won 56 - I think Clips were >favored tho) >2016 vs Blazers - 2-4 Loss (Clips were favored) >2017 vs Jazz - 3-4 Loss (both won 51 games) >2018 vs Wolves - 4-1 Win (Houston was favored) >2018 vs Jazz - 4-1 Win (Houston was favored) >2018 vs Warriors - 3-4 Loss (Warriors were favored, but this >was a choke even if he didnt play games 6 and 7) >2019 vs Jazz - 4-1 win (Houston was favored) >2019 vs Warriors - 2-4 loss (Warriors were favored) >2020 vs Rockets - 3-4 loss (Houston was favored) > >And then his Phoenix career. So - there are 2 or 3 series you >can maybe point to that he SHOULD have won, but his >"underachieving" status is so beyond exaggerated. > >
auragin_boi Member since Aug 01st 2003 20939 posts
Fri May-06-22 04:44 PM
75. "KG got past the 2nd round once with Minny - 12 seasons, 1 time" In response to Reply # 43 Fri May-06-22 04:44 PM by auragin_boi
Lost in the first round his first 7 yrs in the league. Made the conference finals, lost, then missed the playoffs for the next 3 yrs. And he ain't a 6ft point guard.
Then got career revitalization when he was gifted to Boston with Ray Allen.
Sometimes...it ain't the guy that's the reason. Sometimes it's the circumstance or the guys around them (front office, team mates, coaches, etc).
24. "It’s hard to count Steph as a pure PG" In response to Reply # 17 Wed Apr-20-22 03:23 PM by Ryan M
And same with AI. So i get that.
But his injuries are the underachievement part and that’s not all that debatable. Someone like Harden has absolutely underachieved. It’s hard to say that about CP3 when his teams ran into absolute monsters.
As for Nash - he had a humongous peak but honestly his longevity doesn’t live up to these other names. He also absolutely underachieved more than the others IMO. So yes the MVPs count for a lot but it’s hard to compare to those other numbers and metrics.
15. "RE: JJ climbing up chimneys, he wants ALL the the smoke, I love it lol....." In response to Reply # 7 Wed Apr-20-22 02:33 PM by allStah
Mine is the same. Slightly different order.
Magic Kidd Oscar Zeke Stockton.
I got Kidd as the greatest PASSER of all time...from Dallas, Suns, Nets, Knicks, and back to Dallas...no one in the history of the game has as many tandems and trios that he set up or created.
Mashburn/Jackson Martin/Jefferson Jefferson/Vinsanity Matrix/ I can’t think of the other guy’s name.
ALL HAIL THE KING of LOSING: LEBRON Bulls | Bears | White Sox | Yankees | Notre Dame | Illinois | Chelsea | Real Madrid
25. "Bob Cousy is one of the greatest dribblers, finishers and passers" In response to Reply # 0
of all time. He played when you couldn’t palm the ball, or crossover. You had to really dribble with your hand on TOP of the ball. There were no hesitations allowed. And he was one of the first little men to finish around and under the rim through big centers and forwards
If you don’t know your focking history, just say so
i saw all the lolz first then saw the 40 sec. mark. still made me bust out
-The Knicks’ coaching search still includes a lone frontrunner, Kurt Rambis, whose qualifications for the position include a strong relationship with Jackson and a willingness to take the job.
52. "Max Kellerman had to fall back in the ESPN pecking order" In response to Reply # 0
>JJ's just smarter than a lot of these ESPN blowhards. Funnier >too. He's got a great career ahead of him in media if he >doesn't get fed up with the nonsense, lol.
because he rubbed Screaming A the wrong way if I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure if being smarter is necessarily a good thing in terms of JJ wanting to carve a long term lane for himself at ESPN.
Based on the Youtube clips where he'd going NBA player interviews for his podcast, that seems like a better, more nuanced, and meaningful lane than being just another sullen screaming/talking head on ESPN. Hopefully he'll carve a non-ESPN lane for himself rather than going on First Take is having to bark out his points in the rare silent spaces Screaming A and Madd Dogg will allow him to speak.
"Sean sparks like John Starks, nah, Sean ball like John Wall" - Rest In Power Forever Sean Price.
First Take's twitter account never tweets out the clips Redick goes viral for, lmao. They stay tweeting out SAS and Perk clips. They know JJ's so far above the level of the usual discourse on that show. Only a matter of time before they stop letting him on.
56. "Mad Dog is just Will Cain with a more subtle dog whistle" In response to Reply # 54
He speaks for boomers and mediocre, envious, spiteful white men, and little else
The fact that he had the audacity to say this has nothing to do with race was hilariously in the nose, because that’s exactly how it works with those people. They dance around the edges and avoid the key phrases- but the sentiment is there.
Just like the shit about Cousy. It’s why those guys love Bird so much- because he was a white dude in a modern era dominated by Black men, who was so brash and so good that he could talk crazy shit and back it up against those Black men Bird had the goods against a remarkable generation of athletes, in a way that They inly wish guys like Cousy could, but the kicker here is, he talked a *lot* of shit.
Never once have a I heard one of MD’s base of white boomers say Larry Legend should tone it down.
JJ rightly called out the undertones of that shit. It’s fun to watch MD get chewed up by someone who should be one of his own, just like Max used to eat up Will.
57. "Here's the full clip. Peep SAS and JJ's body language" In response to Reply # 54
The second that piece of shit Mad Dog- and jesus, people with cornball names like that still pop?- but check the body language and facial expression of both SAS and JJ when he starts that bullshit.
Later, SAS tells MD that Dray is being unfairly crucified by the likes of him (MD), and MD says, "what, I can't have an opinion?"
That's all it takes for this fucking buffoon to feel attacked?
========================================= I'm an advocate for working smarter, not harder. If you just focus on working hard you end up making someone else rich and not having much to show for it. (c) mad
62. "i dont see jj lasting long on tv." In response to Reply # 54
hes just head and shoulders above everyone else in terms of knowledge and insight and he has very little tolerance for the passive ignorance you have to entertain on these debate shows to make other people come off as near-equally credible authorities on the subject.
you gotta be willing to laugh off a lot of dumb shit and treat wrong takes like valid opinions worthy of level headed challenges. you can tell he struggles to play that game tho. dude be getting red, rolling his eyes, taking shit personal, etc.
its hard for him to hide his disgust at times and not come off as looking down on these folks. i seen him almost be about to light up malika andrews once lol.
66. "I don't think so. Max was deferential to a fault" In response to Reply # 65 Thu May-05-22 09:12 PM by Cold Truth
JJ was an athlete, who competed at an elite collegiate level, followed by a respectable pro career as an important piece on a couple of contending teams.
As far as I can tell, his peers respect him.
All that to say, he has a backbone and his tone in situations show that while he's holding back a few degrees worth of heat, he's not here for the fuck shit.
So it's possible, but he comes across like the type to stand up and make you knock him down rather than roll over.
I like Max, and he very often had insightful points that relied heavily on contextual elements to make his points, but he's too jovial and was a bit of a pushover.
JJ has a competitive dog in him that Max doesn't. And while he wasn't a champion or an all star, he had a career that you can't exactly shit on, so he can speak with a fair amount of authority.
69. "he's too logical / even keeled for SAS & Mad Dog & ruins the shtick" In response to Reply # 67
...that they're trying to push (two loud animated guys yelling back and forth like those two Muppets that always argue...I'm forgetting their names and don't feel like googling)
Mad Dog doing his best Laura Ingraham impression with that "shut up and dribble bit" comment about Draymond was cringe though.
>They just gotta tune him up a bit on the show business aspect >of it cause he takes it too seriously and gets angry.
Agreed
------------------- I wanna go to where the martyrs went the brown figures on the walls of my apart-a-ment...
70. "I’ve said before I think ESPN messes up when they take guys that…" In response to Reply # 67
specialize in one sport and try to present them as all sports experts and they just sound like a loudmouth at the bar.
Max is a boxing guy and sounds foolish when he talks about any other sport.
Stephen A is a basketball guy that sounds foolish when he talks about any other sport.
They try to balance it out now with separate shows and rotation sport specific co-hosts but it’s still weird.
I think the whole sportswriter yelling their opinion thing is getting played anyway. Even Wilbon and Kornheiser are annoying to me and I used to love those guys now they just come off as old men yelling at clouds.
74. "As a DC native, I gotta love Wilbon and Tony. But you're right" In response to Reply # 70
The two of them are definitely Statler and Waldorf at this point, and that's fine. They were like that when George Michael had his show (RIP to the legend)
As for the ESPN personalities, you're 1000% right. Max knows an insane amount of boxing, whether he's a good TV personality or not. For sports in general, he's not good. Never has been, never will be.
SAS definitely knows his wheelhouse, and sounds foolish once the NBA playoffs are done. But he's a brand now, so somebody is listening (not me). Honestly, Shannon kinda has a similar trajectory, but it feels he does a bit more work to get knowledgeable on things (or he's just a better fit with Skip).
<-- Dave Thomas knows what's up... __________________________
Jay: Look here homie, any nigga can get a hit record. This here is about respect. Game: Like Gladys Knight. Jay: Aretha Franklin. Game: Word, I like her too. Jay: Nigga...
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