Printer-friendly copy Email this topic to a friend
Lobby General Discussion topic #12770070

Subject: "The most popular anti-depressants based on a theory we know is wrong" Previous topic | Next topic
imcvspl
Member since Mar 07th 2005
42196 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 06:25 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
"The most popular anti-depressants based on a theory we know is wrong"


  

          

http://io9.com/the-most-popular-antidepressants-are-based-on-a-theory-1686163236

One in ten Americans takes an anti-depressant drug like Zoloft or Prozac. But these drugs are designed based on a theory that's already been roundly disproven: the "chemical imbalance" theory of depression. Why haven't our drugs kept up with the science of depression?

Image Credit: Tom Varco | CC BY-SA 3.0

The number of people taking antidepressants has increased by over 400% since the early '90s. In a certain light, this could be perceived as a success for public health; it is clear, for example, that tens of millions of people have found antidepressants to be effective. What's less clear is why these medications work, but decades of research on the subject suggest that an explanation parroted in ad campaigns and physicians' offices alike – that depression boils down to a "chemical imbalance" – is wrong.

This is the story of how pharmaceutical companies and psychiatrists convinced the public that depression was the result of a simple chemical imbalance – and how scientists, patients, and psychiatrists are working to piece together the more complicated truth.

Better Thinking (And Feeling) Through Chemistry

The Most Popular Antidepressants Are Based On A Theory We Know Is Wrong

Flickr user spike55151. CC BY-NC-SA 2.0

Psychiatry in the 1950s was a field in transition. Mental disorders were often believed to be the direct result of social circumstance, and many psychiatrists relied on talk therapy to treat their patients. The few drug therapies that did exist were rarely well-suited for treating particular maladies. Morphine and opium were sometimes used to treat depression, while insulin shock therapy was used to render uncooperative schizophrenic patients comatose.

By the end of the 1950s, Thorazine, a new psychiatric drug, had become the treatment of choice for schizophrenia. Thorazine simplified the problem of safely keeping aggressive patients calm and docile, and was seen as far less cruel than putting those patients in a coma.

The Most Popular Antidepressants Are Based On A Theory We Know Is Wrong
During the 1960s, researchers confirmed that neurotransmitters, like dopamine or serotonin, served as the chemical signals that allowed neurons to communicate, underpinning much of the brain's function. Thorazine was soon found to inhibit dopamine receptors in mice, blocking the normal effects of dopamine, and potentially explaining its sedating effects in humans.

Drugs similar to Thorazine were then developed on the premise that excessive dopamine in the brain could be responsible for certain aspects of schizophrenia. These drugs quickly demonstrated that the chemical manipulation of neurotransmitters could be effective in treating mental disorders.

Psychiatry had lagged behind other medical fields for decades, in large part because it lacked treatments tailored to treat specific conditions. Thorazine helped accelerate the acceptance of biological psychiatry, which focused on the biological basis of mental disorders. Biological psychiatry also provided a welcome opportunity for psychiatrists to work directly with pharmaceutical companies to develop targeted, drug-based treatments for mental disorders. Change was in the air.

Framing Low Serotonin As The Culprit Behind Depression

Psychiatrists in the mid-20th century were also keen to develop drug therapies for more common mental disorders, like depression. Case reports had documented mood changes in patients being treated with various drugs for non-psychiatric illnesses. Iproniazid, used to treat tuberculosis, seemed to improve patients' moods, while reserpine, originally used to manage high blood pressure, appeared to mimic depression. Just why either of these drugs influenced mood remained anyone's bet.

The Most Popular Antidepressants Are Based On A Theory We Know Is Wrong
Thorazine's documented effects on dopamine receptors raised the possibility that iproniazid and reserpine might be influencing mood via their effects on some neurotransmitter. Remarkably, this appeared to be the case. Iproniazid increased serotonin levels in the brain, while reserpine decreased serotonin levels. Other drugs which had similarly shown promise as anti-depressants in the 1950s, like imipramine, were also shown to raise serotonin levels.

These examples suggested that low serotonin might be responsible for depression's symptoms, and that boosting serotonin's levels might alleviate these symptoms. In other words, they indicated that depression could be due to a chemical imbalance in the brain, and that this imbalance could be corrected through the targeted use of proper drugs.


Based on rodent studies, researchers could reasonably surmise that the drugs would increase serotonin levels. What they couldn't assume was that a boost in serotonin levels would be of benefit to people suffering from depression. And yet, at least for some patients, the therapeutic effects of these drugs were undeniable. But these early anti-depressants caused severe side effects, and psychiatrists were skeptical that patients would agree to take them. Pharmaceutical companies saw a major (and, potentially, majorly lucrative) opportunity: A drug that could increase serotonin levels without causing severe side effects could revolutionize the treatment of depression.

These companies began hunting for new chemicals that met these criteria.

SSRIs Top The Charts, To The Tune Of The Chemical Imbalance Theory

In the early 1970s, pharmaceutical chemists struck gold with the invention of drugs like fluoxetine (Prozac) and sertraline (Zoloft). These compounds were part of a new class of anti-depressants, called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), that raised serotonin levels by preventing neurons from recycling serotonin that had already been released. Promisingly, SSRIs were about as good at treating depression as their predecessors, but they caused milder side-effects.

The Most Popular Antidepressants Are Based On A Theory We Know Is Wrong
Left: Prozac prevents serotonin from being reabsorbed, increasing its concentration in the synapse. Wikimedia Commons/vtvu. CC BY-SA 3.0

It took about twenty years for the first SSRIs to pass through clinical trials and receive FDA approval. Psychiatrists and drug companies alike were happy to trumpet a biological explanation for depression (low serotonin), and an appropriate, relatively safe remedy (SSRIs).

"Why am I depressed, and what can I do about it?" a patient might ask. "Well, there's research indicating that depression is related to low levels of serotonin," a psychiatrist might reply. "And here's a pill that will increase your serotonin levels, and alleviate your depression."

Television commercials soon parroted the same ideas. (It's worth noting that the U.S. and New Zealand are the only Western countries in the world that allow pharmaceutical companies to advertise to the general public). In 1997, the FDA shifted its rules and made it easier for companies to run infomercials about pharmaceutical drugs. Ads like the one below, for Zoloft, suggested to TV viewers that they might be suffering from depression and not even realize it.



The ad, like many pharmaceutical commercials, was careful not to make absolute claims about Zoloft's effectiveness. Instead, it prefaced a definitive statement (that Zoloft works to correct an imbalance) with an inconclusive one (i.e. that while its cause is unknown, depression may be related to an imbalance of natural chemicals). But couched in this careful language was an implication, that psychiatrists not only had a good idea of how depression worked, but had figured out how to treat it.

The effects of this and other direct-to-consumer marketing campaigns soon became starkly evident: By 2006, anti-depressants in the U.S. represented the most popular category of prescription drug.


Chances are, though, that you might know a few people who have struggled to cope with depression, in spite of seeking treatment. Not every depressed patient can be helped by anti-depressants that are said to "correct" a supposed serotonin deficit.

The Myth Of The Chemical Imbalance Theory

The chemical imbalance theory may have spurred chemists to invent modern anti-depressants, but the task of proving that low serotonin is to blame for depression – and that boosting serotonin levels is the key to its treatment – has turned out to be impossible.

The Most Popular Antidepressants Are Based On A Theory We Know Is Wrong
To start, it is impossible to directly measure brain serotonin levels in humans. You can't sample human brain tissue without also destroying it. A crude work-around involves measuring levels of a serotonin metabolite, 5-HIAA, in cerebrospinal fluid (CSF), which can only be obtained with a spinal tap. A handful of studies from the 1980s (like this one) found slightly decreased 5-HIAA in the CSF of depressed and suicidal patients, while later studies have produced conflicting results on whether SSRIs lower or raise CSF levels of 5-HIAA. These studies are all circumstantial with regards to actual serotonin levels, though, and the fact remains there is no direct evidence of a chemical imbalance underlying depression.

The corollary to the chemical imbalance theory, which implies that raising brain serotonin levels alleviates depression, has also been hard to prove. In fact, the serotonin-depleting drug reserpine was itself shown to be an effective anti-depressant in the 1950s, the same decade in which other studies claimed that reserpine caused depression-like symptoms. At the time, few psychiatrists acknowledged these conflicting reports, as the studies muddled a beautiful, though incorrect, theory. Tianeptine is another drug that decreases serotonin levels while also serving as a bona-fide anti-depressant. Tianeptine does just the opposite of SSRIs – it enhances serotonin reuptake. Wellbutrin is a third anti-depressant that doesn't increase serotonin levels. You get the picture.

If you prefer your data to be derived more accurately, but less relevantly, from rodents, you might consider a recent meta-analysis carried out by psychologist Paul Andrews (McMaster University, Ontario) and colleagues. This meta-analysis revealed that, in rodents, elevated serotonin was usually associated with depression. While Andrews argues that depression is therefore a disorder of too much serotonin, it's clear from decades of conflicting literature that any chemical imbalance theory, serotonin low or high, will be exceedingly difficult to prove.

Though the dubious chemical imbalance theory provided psychiatry with dozens of somewhat-worthwhile anti-depressants, depression still afflicts many of us. Ditching the chemical imbalance theory, and possibly weaning society off SSRIs, will not be easy for the millions of Americans who currently depend on them. Any changes, we can expect, will be slow – but the time has come to move beyond the chemical imbalance theory of depression.

Bringing The Public Up To Speed With 50 Years Of Brain Science

To spur psychiatry forward, we need an improved public understanding of depression, and new forms of treatments. To learn more about the former , I contacted Jeffrey Lacasse – an assistant professor in the College of Social Work at Florida State University who specializes in mental health and psychiatric medications – and neuroanatomist Jonathan Leo of Lincoln Memorial University in Tennessee. In 2007, Lacasse and Leo published research on the media's propagation of the chemical imbalance theory. In their investigation, the researchers followed up on every mention of the chemical imbalance theory they could find over a one-year span, turning up zero hard evidence to substantiate the theory in the process. I wanted to know the extent to which the public dialogue about depression has shifted since their investigation was published.

In a joint e-mail, Lacasse and Leo told me that the public portrayal of the chemical imbalance theory has dropped off noticeably in the past few years. Though TV commercials promoted SSRIs using the chemical imbalance theory in the early 2000s, "we noticed these advertisements came to a screeching halt around 2006-07," they said. It's not entirely clear why these advertisements disappeared, but the researchers speculate it's because the underlying science had failed to corroborate the theory, and finally come to the attention of advertising execs who had knowingly skipped their homework.

The Most Popular Antidepressants Are Based On A Theory We Know Is Wrong

Flickr user pasukaru76. CC BY 2.0.

But Lacasse and Leo say depressed patients are still routinely told by their GPs and psychiatrists that they have a chemical imbalance, in spite of criticisms from prominent academic psychiatrists like Ronald Pies, who "states that no knowledgable, well-trained clinician would say such a thing."

"If patients search the internet on these issues," Lacasse and Leo say, "we would expect them to be very confused."

The two researchers are concerned "that the story most patients have been hearing from their clinicians for the past 25 years simply has never lined up with the actual scientific data," raising the question of whether patients have had the opportunity to give fully-informed consent.

There is no question that antidepressants can be very beneficial for some people. But the effectiveness of these medications has been shown to vary widely. As noted in a meta-analysis of antidepressant drug effects published January 2010 in The Journal of the American Medical Association:

The magnitude of benefit of antidepressant medication compared with placebo increases with severity of depression symptoms and may be minimal or nonexistent, on average, in patients with mild or moderate symptoms. For patients with very severe depression, the benefit of medications over placebo is substantial.
Some psychiatrists vehemently disagree with the way journalists and other psychiatrists have pushed back against the chemical imbalance theory, and anti-depressants in general, noting that these therapies are effective, even if we don't fully understand why they work.

For what it's worth, the sudden cessation of televised versions of the chemical imbalance theory still perplexes Lacasse and Leo, who are continuing to study how the public portrayal of depression influences patients. Thankfully, the chemical imbalance theory now seems to exist solely in the lay audience's mind, and potentially in the offices of less-than-responsible psychiatrists. It seems there exists opportunity for change.

The Science Of Depression Advances – With Luck, Psychiatry Will Follow

To get a sense of where an expert in depression felt the study and treatment of depression was heading, I contacted Poul Videbech, a professor of psychiatry at Aarhus University Hospital in Denmark. He was frank with his assessment of the field: " The truth is, the chemical imbalance theory has been immensely fruitful, as it has inspired us to develop new drugs," he said.

"At the same time," he adds, "it has probably been wrong, or at very least partially wrong. Depression – which is several disease entities – is much more complicated than this simplistic theory assumes. "

Videbech says depression's wide range of symptoms can be linked to myriad overlapping factors, from genetic vulnerability, to deficiency of certain neurotransmitters (chemical imbalance theory - lite), to disruptions in circadian rhythms, to factors that can alter the survival and growth of neurons. The birth of new neurons, for example, is a hallmark of a healthy brain; a prominent new theory about how SSRIs work has connected elevated serotonin levels to the elevated birth of neurons. But the science still has a ways to go.

" It is also obvious that psychological stress and so-called early lifetime stress can cause depression," he says. That's not to say that depression's social underpinnings are distinct from its biological ones, Videbech adds. "The dichotomy of depressions being either 'biological' or 'psychological' disorders," he says, "is thus false, and not justified by scientific literature."

This dichotomy, he says, is upheld in large part by lay people, who may think that treatment with anti-depressants implies a biological origin for the disease. "It is a major pedagogical task for doctors (and journalists) to eradicate these old fashioned beliefs. They are so beautifully simple to explain," says Videbech, "but nevertheless wrong."

Videbech also mentioned several new therapies that could gain traction in coming years. Ketamine, for example, shows promise, but must be given at regular intervals; transcranial magnetic stimulation, in which magnets are used to non-invasively manipulate brain activity, and wake therapy, in which patients are kept awake for prolonged periods, are two other options backed by reams of scientific evidence. In the future, we may even see psychedelics return to the psychiatric clinic; a number of psychedelic compounds – including psilocybin, the hallucinogen found in magic mushrooms – have shown promise as antidepressants in recent years, a fact that has led many to call for an end to bans on psychoactive drug research.

Psychiatry has been slow to actively correct the myth of the chemical imbalance theory of depression, and SSRIs remain the therapy of choice for millions of patients, but scientists and psychiatrists seem eager to improve our understanding of depression and its treatment. Big Pharma may have led the public to believe that drugs alone could cure a singular cause of depression, but evidence-based reasoning and experimentation stand to put us back on track.

Update: This piece originally stated that "studies have shown that much of {'antidepressants'} effect is likely due to placebo." In fact, meta analyses have concluded that the magnitude of benefit of antidepressant medication compared with placebo tends to increase with severity of depression symptoms. The piece has been revised to clarify this point.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top


Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
pills, pills, pills!
Apr 02nd 2015
1
RE: The most popular anti-depressants based on a theory we know is wrong
Apr 02nd 2015
2
I didn't want any of the SSRI's bc of the 'sexual side effects'.
Apr 02nd 2015
3
Some actually increase libido..
Apr 02nd 2015
29
anxiety is a physical disorder
Apr 02nd 2015
4
this is nonsense
Apr 02nd 2015
12
no it's not.
Apr 02nd 2015
20
      reading material:
Apr 02nd 2015
21
shut the fuck up.
Apr 02nd 2015
18
      first of all
Apr 02nd 2015
19
           RE: first of all
Apr 02nd 2015
23
                noone should take those published studies seriously?
Apr 02nd 2015
26
RE: The most popular anti-depressants based on a theory we know is wrong
Apr 02nd 2015
5
agreed.
Apr 02nd 2015
7
^^^
Apr 02nd 2015
9
this is NOT nonsense
Apr 02nd 2015
13
this is a fantastic reply
Apr 02nd 2015
15
I have absolutely nothing to add.
Apr 02nd 2015
17
Can you be a body builder without eating protein?
Apr 02nd 2015
25
True, SSRI's like any treatment of depression is likely unable
Apr 02nd 2015
30
      my thoughts on depression
Apr 03rd 2015
34
^
Apr 02nd 2015
27
thanks for this
Apr 02nd 2015
28
L-Tryptophan works far better and has ALWAYS been better
Apr 02nd 2015
6
well thats not totally true
Apr 02nd 2015
14
      no, it caused exactly two deaths due to contamination
Apr 02nd 2015
24
What is this a surprise or something?
Apr 02nd 2015
8
do you know how HARD "they" will fight to keep that suppressed?
Apr 02nd 2015
10
      Oh yes they are probably fighting right now.
Apr 02nd 2015
11
terrible headline, and the implication of the thesis statement is false
Apr 02nd 2015
16
yah....
Apr 02nd 2015
32
Omega-3 and Depression
Apr 02nd 2015
22
oh for christ's sakes.....
Apr 02nd 2015
31
      ok you take christ, i'll take pete
Apr 02nd 2015
33

Deadzombie
Member since Aug 21st 2008
13358 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 06:51 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
1. "pills, pills, pills!"
In response to Reply # 0


          

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

neuro_OSX
Member since Oct 29th 2004
1157 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 07:03 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
2. "RE: The most popular anti-depressants based on a theory we know is wrong"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Pharmaceutical commercials need to banned the same way cigarette commercials were banned in 1971, big pharma is without question out of control.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

SoWhat
Charter member
154163 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 07:23 AM

Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
3. "I didn't want any of the SSRI's bc of the 'sexual side effects'."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Bc fuck that.

fuck you.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
obsidianchrysalis
Member since Jan 29th 2003
7929 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 03:19 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
29. "Some actually increase libido.."
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

Wellbutrin and Lexapro.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

initiationofplato
Member since Nov 06th 2013
2420 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 08:57 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
4. "anxiety is a physical disorder"
In response to Reply # 0


          

your brain is not getting enough of the proteins it needs, take a flax seed oil and fish liver oil supplement to fix that.

~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
cgonz00cc
Member since Aug 01st 2002
32966 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 12:30 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
12. "this is nonsense"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

        
initiationofplato
Member since Nov 06th 2013
2420 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 01:59 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
20. "no it's not."
In response to Reply # 12


          

see my response to joe corn.

~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

            
initiationofplato
Member since Nov 06th 2013
2420 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 02:03 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
21. "reading material:"
In response to Reply # 20
Thu Apr-02-15 02:08 PM by initiationofplato

          

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/237508.php

http://www.lef.org/magazine/2007/10/report_depression/Page-01

http://www.todaysdietitian.com/newarchives/011012p22.shtml


Omega-3 and Depression
As reported in Science Daily, a 2001 study completed in Finland showed that infrequent consumption of fish and depression were significantly correlated. A Dutch study published in 2003 showed that people who were depressed and those without depression had significantly different intakes of omega-3 fatty acids. In a newer study published in the June 2010 issue of "Journal of Clinical Psychiatry," it was found that omega-3 supplements were as efficient as conventional antidepressant medications in the treatment of major depression.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/390161-how-does-omega-3-help-with-anxiety/

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/746870


nonsense? try again.

~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
15139 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 01:00 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
18. "shut the fuck up. "
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

replies like this infuriate me
because i think of ppl
with mental health isues reading
it, and possibly being led astray.

seriously, if you have a mental
health issue, see a professional
and learn more about
what you are going through.




>your brain is not getting enough of the proteins it needs,
>take a flax seed oil and fish liver oil supplement to fix
>that.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

        
initiationofplato
Member since Nov 06th 2013
2420 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 01:58 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
19. "first of all"
In response to Reply # 18
Thu Apr-02-15 02:08 PM by initiationofplato

          

calm your tits.

secondly, this came directly from a medical professional.

thirdly, i had a room mate who was on anxiety medicine, who went into a clinical trial, which replaced his medication with omega fatty acids, proteins, etc. and he hasn't returned to the medicine since.

maybe you need to educate yourself before you lash out.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/237508.php

http://www.lef.org/magazine/2007/10/report_depression/Page-01

http://www.todaysdietitian.com/newarchives/011012p22.shtml

Omega-3 and Depression
As reported in Science Daily, a 2001 study completed in Finland showed that infrequent consumption of fish and depression were significantly correlated. A Dutch study published in 2003 showed that people who were depressed and those without depression had significantly different intakes of omega-3 fatty acids. In a newer study published in the June 2010 issue of "Journal of Clinical Psychiatry," it was found that omega-3 supplements were as efficient as conventional antidepressant medications in the treatment of major depression.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/390161-how-does-omega-3-help-with-anxiety/

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/746870

~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

            
Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
15139 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 02:14 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
23. "RE: first of all"
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

>calm your tits.
>

no.

mental health is an important issue to me.

for lots of reasons.

spitting your pseudoscientific
bullshit is not just condescending, it's dangerous.

because if somebody reads that shit you posted, and tries eating more protien, and still has mental health issues, they
may think they are untreatable.

had that person sought treatment from a professional,
they might learn that there is no quick fix for mental health,
and that you cannot get better unless you and your doctor work together to create a treatment program that can get you well enough to be able to take a
more active role in managing your own mental health.

your post is bullshit and nobody should take it seriously.

my role here is to use whatever credibility I have on this forum
to let any lurkers reading that you are full of shit.


and now that I have done that,
you can take the last word.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                
initiationofplato
Member since Nov 06th 2013
2420 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 02:20 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
26. "noone should take those published studies seriously?"
In response to Reply # 23
Thu Apr-02-15 02:20 PM by initiationofplato

          

because you say so?

you are clearly not interested in learning.


>spitting your pseudoscientific
>bullshit is not just condescending, it's dangerous.

there are published, peer reviewed studies on this.

>
>because if somebody reads that shit you posted, and tries
>eating more protien, and still has mental health issues, they
>
>may think they are untreatable.


ugh. S C I E N T I F I C S T U D I E S.

R E A D T H E M.


>
>your post is bullshit and nobody should take it seriously.
>
>my role here is to use whatever credibility I have on this
>forum
>to let any lurkers reading that you are full of shit.
>
>
>and now that I have done that,
>you can take the last word.
>
>

You're not interested in learning. you just wanna be loud and sport your cape. i get it.

~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

obsidianchrysalis
Member since Jan 29th 2003
7929 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 11:05 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
5. "RE: The most popular anti-depressants based on a theory we know is wrong"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

The truth is, this is a timely article, but also dangerous because the writer didn't seem to include enough science about the factors involved in the 'chemical imbalance' theory of mental disorders and tie that lack of knowledge into a clear understanding of better science.

Like the article mentioned, there is no 'E=mC²' of neurobiology. The amount of variables and factors involved in a clear-cut, simple relationship between depression (in this case) is simply beyond the knowledge of modern medicine. Likely because of the amount of resources needed to reduce something so complex as mental illness into a neat, orderly description.

One issue is that mental illness exists on a spectrum, from mild, 'normal' depression and anxiety which most everyone has at some point in their lives to moments of terrifying separations from reality.

The only things these illnesses have in common is that the person suffering has a mindbody connection which doesn't allow them to remain emotionally and physically competent to take care of themselves because of a source of stress, internal or external. If a study were to link genetics with ethnic and cultural factors, the thread would narrow even further.

Some of this is common sense. One woman may break up with her husband. She may grieve very deeply for a number of years, he may find a woman within a short time of the breakup. Same point of stress, different reactions.

One thing that was not listed but is a fact I learned from reading out psychiatric meds because of a case of depression is that the average amount of money spent for one drug to make it to market is 1B. Yeah, with a B. Also, the percentage of drugs that make it to market from the concept stage, IIRC is less than 5 pct.

In other words, the drug that hits has to make enough money to fund the other 95% of misses plus the corporate dynamics of hitting projections and the like.

Yes, Big Pharma is real, I guess. But like most ghosts they do serve a purpose.

Many people benefit from the SSRI's and other treatments. However they are rarely cure-alls. It's good that people are seeking help, it means less stress for everyone. But if someone read the article and thought, 'Well, the meds don't really work and I don't want to make fat cats fatter.' and decided to postpone or end their treatment than the article was unhelpful.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
SoWhat
Charter member
154163 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 11:36 AM

Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
7. "agreed."
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

fuck you.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
Backbone
Charter member
8302 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 11:41 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
9. "^^^ "
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

___________________
"So this is what everybody's always talking about! Diablo! If only I'd known. The beauty! The beauty!"

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
cgonz00cc
Member since Aug 01st 2002
32966 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 12:31 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
13. "this is NOT nonsense"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
John Forte
Member since Feb 22nd 2013
15330 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 12:44 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
15. "this is a fantastic reply"
In response to Reply # 5


          

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
Joe Corn Mo
Member since Aug 29th 2010
15139 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 12:57 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
17. "I have absolutely nothing to add. "
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

fantastic reply.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
initiationofplato
Member since Nov 06th 2013
2420 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 02:18 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
25. "Can you be a body builder without eating protein?"
In response to Reply # 5


          

Can you be a fire fighter without water?

Can your brain be balanced and calm if its not getting the essentials it needs?

No.

Everyone is seeking a complicated explanation to something which may be very simple.

The body / brain / heart has specific needs. If these needs are not met, expect things to break down and malfunction.

I have already posted numerous articles pointing to studies where Omega 3 fatty acids were proven to be as effective as conventional medication.

The first step for anyone seeking balance is to make sure the plumbing is working properly, and that the system is receiving everything that it needs.

If your blood sugar level is too low because you aren't eating, you are going to lose consciousness.

Equally, if your brain is not getting what it needs, it's going to lose its ability to maintain a balanced mood.

Most people suffering from anxiety turn to prescription meds, or alcohol, or other drugs. This complicates matters because you are introducing chemicals to a system that may not need them, and that has destructive properties, psychological, and more importantly, physical.

Speaking from personal experience, my ability to manage my mood or anxiety levels is noticeably different when I do not give my body/brain what it needs, and when I do. It is literally like night and day. Why don't people just try it before they knock it. There are good studies on this. Not everything has to be this complicated.

~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

        
obsidianchrysalis
Member since Jan 29th 2003
7929 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 03:32 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
30. "True, SSRI's like any treatment of depression is likely unable"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

to 'cure' depression.

Any psychologist or psychiatrist would ask a patient to look into following a spiritual tradition or faith, exercise, to watch their diet, attend group support meetings and / or build an emotional support system.

I'm sure some people think that they can take a pill and relieve their depression. I thought this. But my doctor urged me to go to therapy and the mix of all forms of the treatment helped more than taking an anti-depressant alone.

Depression can be thought of having a boulder land on your chest. You can try to will it off your chest or pray it away, but likely you're gonna need help getting that weight off of you and getting back to a healthy life. Meds help remove the bolder which is the key. But they other types of support are important also.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

            
initiationofplato
Member since Nov 06th 2013
2420 posts
Fri Apr-03-15 01:38 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
34. "my thoughts on depression"
In response to Reply # 30


          

I think part of the reason that nothing can "cure" it is because nothing is wrong that can be fixed with an external force. I am not suggesting that real symptoms do not manifest because they clearly do, and you can control some of them with medication that has an effect on your biology. At the core, when you get to the bottom of someone's depression, it is always a rationally constructed *irrational emotional and physical reaction* to a trigger event determined by external forces. The trigger event is always associated with the individual's history and experience in life and what they are emotionally susceptible to.

We are all conditioned with the idea of beauty, wealth, popularity, financial security, material prosperity, love, fulfillment, enjoyment, gratification, etc. We enter a schooling and social system which essentially assess our ability to conform to and make use of these tools to *PERSONAL* advantage. We become convinced that our fulfillment and self worth is based on these principles. We are driven by a hyper reality which exists in our minds, one where we achieve A, B, or C. We have chosen to conform to external forces, which also come with a set of emotional responses. We are also led to believe that our very survival is directly associated to our mastership of the ideas (finding the best mate based on your "credentials").

Depression is a direct reflection of how we believe we measure up to or how we interact with the public domain. "I am x years old, I should be x, with x, for x reasons." We have not been taught to deal with internal forces of deep introspection, inner vision, inner seeking, inner dreaming and feeling, etc. More importantly, we are not given the time to learn about our inner self because it takes a great deal of energy, devotion and also a lot of maturity and discipline, but inevitably, you are forced to jump into the rat race to survive, and not just financial but in every aspect dealing with social status and prestige, and you are unable to discover or analyze your true self because you are dealing with the onslaught of irrational emotional and physical reactions you draw from your hyper reality.

The path to our depression is always different from one another, but they all share the same physical symptoms. It's that telling in itself? If it was an objective cause/medical problem, it would all stem from the same source but it does not, so therefore, it *must* be subjective.

Depression is a poorly lit room which is full of mirrors. When you are depressed, you point the finger at the world, and it inevitably the same finger points back at you, and you point back at the world, and it points back at you, because ultimately, it comes down to you and how you have chosen to measure yourself in those mirrors.

Physical symptoms are a testament to the power of consciousness. Some people break out into hives when they stand in front of a crowd. Others can make their hearts race, suck all the energy from their limbs, faint, vomit, lose sleep, etc etc. Some people make themselves believe that they have a multitude of disorders and diseases. They are able to produce real physical reactions, and look for ways to confirm and treat them. Someone who is more frail, whom is running a race against an athlete will lose, and not because they are a worse person, but because they don't have the right tool for the job. A body that is not taken care of and respected will not perform as well against anxiety and depression, but both anxiety and depression are important to understanding the inner self and why it reacts the way it does. Could depression be a defense mechanism ?

~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
dillinjah
Charter member
8149 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 02:25 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
27. "^"
In response to Reply # 5


          

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
Ashy Achilles
Member since Sep 22nd 2005
4084 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 03:05 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
28. "thanks for this"
In response to Reply # 5


          

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

PoppaGeorge
Member since Nov 07th 2004
10384 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 11:17 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
6. "L-Tryptophan works far better and has ALWAYS been better"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

and that's something that's been known for decades. It was once the preferred substance prescribed for dealing with depression and the like until Prozac came along.

If you don't know already, read about the banning of L-Tryptophan and the rise of Prozac. BigPharma got it banned in order to push these bullshit drugs on us.

---------------------------

forcing myself to actually respond to you is like bathing in ebola virus. - Binlahab

Like there is stupid, and then there is you, and then there is dead. - VAsBestBBW

R.I.P. Disco D

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
cgonz00cc
Member since Aug 01st 2002
32966 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 12:42 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
14. "well thats not totally true"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

There was a terrible instance of bad L-trp that caused like 2000 permanent disabilities, but the manufacturing flaws that caused them werent known at the time. So there was a moratorium, which im sure Big Pharm was glad for.

As of 2001 tho its no longer banned for sale or production

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

        
PoppaGeorge
Member since Nov 07th 2004
10384 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 02:18 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
24. "no, it caused exactly two deaths due to contamination"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

>There was a terrible instance of bad L-trp that caused like
>2000 permanent disabilities, but the manufacturing flaws that
>caused them werent known at the time. So there was a
>moratorium, which im sure Big Pharm was glad for.
>
>As of 2001 tho its no longer banned for sale or production

There was a contaminated batch of L-Tryptophan that came from Japan that caused two deaths. The FDA rushed in and banned L-Tryptophan for human use (except as an additive in baby food... let that sink in for a bit). The cause -was- known at the time and even with that knowledge the FDA still banned it.

A few days later, Prozac made the cover of Time Magazine.

Prozac was also directly attributed to over a dozen deaths during clinical trials but was still allowed on the market.


In the early 90's, a treatment for the very condition that the contaminated L-Tryptophan was banned for was patented... The treatment used L-Tryptophan to treat it.

In the 80's, the FDA was controlled by individuals installed during the Reagan administration by Donald Rumsfeld, then president and CEO of GD Searle, the company that brought us aspartame. Those individuals were "sympathetic", to say the least, to Pharma's requests.




---------------------------

forcing myself to actually respond to you is like bathing in ebola virus. - Binlahab

Like there is stupid, and then there is you, and then there is dead. - VAsBestBBW

R.I.P. Disco D

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Atillah Moor
Member since Sep 05th 2013
13825 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 11:39 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
8. "What is this a surprise or something? "
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I'm still waiting for the report linking anti depressants to acts of mass killing.

People acting like the love money isn't the root of all evil or something.

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
PoppaGeorge
Member since Nov 07th 2004
10384 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 11:50 AM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
10. "do you know how HARD "they" will fight to keep that suppressed?"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

The number of lawsuits and the cost would be mind-bending. Every school shooting and mass shooting since Columbine, big or small, would be under scrutiny and the families that lost people in those shootings will be coming for BigPharma's throat.


---------------------------

forcing myself to actually respond to you is like bathing in ebola virus. - Binlahab

Like there is stupid, and then there is you, and then there is dead. - VAsBestBBW

R.I.P. Disco D

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

        
Atillah Moor
Member since Sep 05th 2013
13825 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 12:01 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
11. "Oh yes they are probably fighting right now. "
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

In time it will all come out though.

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

cgonz00cc
Member since Aug 01st 2002
32966 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 12:46 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy listClick to send message via AOL IM
16. "terrible headline, and the implication of the thesis statement is false"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Modulating NT levels as a treatment for many neuropsychological disorders is still a valid and effective treatment plan

There is good info in there about the "1 disorder 1 treatment" approach. Which is silly.

But the reference to a theory that everyone knows is wrong is misleading and/or dishonest

Also such terrible abuse of the word "theory"

WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
11281 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 06:10 PM

Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
32. "yah...."
In response to Reply # 16


          

Amongst other problems......there's a huge difference between disputing evidence that supports a theory and proving the theory to be 'wrong'.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

initiationofplato
Member since Nov 06th 2013
2420 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 02:07 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
22. "Omega-3 and Depression"
In response to Reply # 0


          


As reported in Science Daily, a 2001 study completed in Finland showed that infrequent consumption of fish and depression were significantly correlated. A Dutch study published in 2003 showed that people who were depressed and those without depression had significantly different intakes of omega-3 fatty acids. In a newer study published in the June 2010 issue of "Journal of Clinical Psychiatry," it was found that omega-3 supplements were as efficient as conventional antidepressant medications in the treatment of major depression.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/390161-how-does-omega-3-help-with-anxiety/

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/746870

~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
denny
Member since Apr 11th 2008
11281 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 04:39 PM

Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
31. "oh for christ's sakes....."
In response to Reply # 22


          

There are many people who maintain sufficient levels of omega 3 and still suffer from depression/mental illness. It's laughable that you think the solution is this simple.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

        
initiationofplato
Member since Nov 06th 2013
2420 posts
Thu Apr-02-15 06:20 PM

Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this authorClick to view this author's profileClick to add this author to your buddy list
33. "ok you take christ, i'll take pete"
In response to Reply # 31


          

>There are many people who maintain sufficient levels of omega
>3 and still suffer from depression/mental illness. It's
>laughable that you think the solution is this simple.

Fist of all. I am not suggesting that omega fatty acids alone will cure you. It is a combination of things, but providing your brain with essentials is CRITICAL. I am very well experienced with depression and anxiety, I know the hell a person can bury themselves in quite well.

I also know that you are speculating by suggesting that people suffering from depression are maintaining excellent nutrition. Speaking from my experience and those around me, I was not eating properly, and neither were the people close to me. You are living in a personal dark hell filled with desperation, despair, and worry. The last thing on your mind is: "Am I getting the essential omega 3 count in my brain."

As I said previously, start with the plumbing first. Then begin to address the other factors. I guarantee that if you dose with fish oil in the morning, and flax seed oil at night, or throughout the day, you are going to feel much better, simply because your brain will have what it needs to manage itself, and because omega fatty acids function as an anti inflammatory to your neurological anatomy.

You can't run a car engine without oil, and equally, you cannot run a brain without the proper nutrition.

~Experience is the currency of the soul.

  

Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Lobby General Discussion topic #12770070 Previous topic | Next topic
Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.25
Copyright © DCScripts.com