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Subject: "The Black Panthers were FLAT WRONG" This topic is locked.
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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
10706 posts
Thu Jan-27-05 11:13 AM

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"The Black Panthers were FLAT WRONG"
Thu Jan-27-05 11:15 AM

  

          

for point #8 in the 10 point program. It reads:

#8. WE WANT FREEDOM FOR ALL BLACK MEN HELD IN FEDERAL, STATE, COUNTY AND CITY PRISONS AND JAILS.
We believe that all Black people should be released from the many jails and prisons because they have not received a fair and impartial trial.

I respect much of what the Panthers were trying to accomplish, and I realize that they were trying to offset the unfairness and lack of representation that Black people received in the legal system. But letting EVERY brother in prison go free would have been a TERRIBLE mistake, because truth be told, a lot of those brothers DESERVED to be locked up.

-Sold drugs in the community? Stay in jail!
-Shot and killed a brother over a dice game? Stay in jail!
-Pimping our women? Stay in jail!
-Child-molester? Put your behind UNDER the jail!

#8 was a poorly thought-out, knee-jerk reaction to the problem of legal injustice for Black people. It would have been horribly detrimental if parasites like this were unleashed back on our communities in 1966.

What do you cats think?

PEACE




"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
they revised their entire platform in 1971...it then read:
Jan 27th 2005
1
Thanks for the revision...but I still have beef with this:
Jan 27th 2005
2
      but what's the point of prisons?
Jan 27th 2005
3
           RE: but what's the point of prisons?
Jan 28th 2005
20
                is "punishment" the most appropriate way to deal with
Feb 01st 2005
54
political prisoners
Jan 27th 2005
4
There is a HUGE difference between a
Jan 27th 2005
5
      isn't all crime political tho?
Jan 27th 2005
6
           Nope, not at all. There is NOTHING
Jan 27th 2005
7
                i see politics of gender all over that...
Jan 27th 2005
8
                     That is a nice semantical answer and all,
Jan 27th 2005
9
                          we don't often agree
Jan 28th 2005
21
                               What have we ever disagreed on?
Jan 28th 2005
23
                                    homosexuality, existence of god
Jan 31st 2005
42
                                         What exactly is your stance on
Jan 31st 2005
44
                                              I'm an atheist, and pro-gay
Jan 31st 2005
47
                                                   I gotcha...PEACE
Jan 31st 2005
48
He (They) also said
Jan 27th 2005
10
I think you're right about a lot of what you said.
Jan 27th 2005
11
And this is why some people who want
Jan 31st 2005
46
Americans are stupid becasue Guilt makes anyyou stupid
Jan 27th 2005
12
Please, PLEASE take your foolishness out of
Jan 27th 2005
13
      RE: Please, PLEASE take your foolishness out of
Jan 28th 2005
17
to me...
Jan 27th 2005
14
No it's actually right.
Jan 27th 2005
15
be that as it may
Jan 28th 2005
16
Yup. It forces reform in our legal system.
Jan 28th 2005
19
This is an 'on-paper' solution:
Jan 28th 2005
22
      2 Questions
Jan 28th 2005
24
      Come on man, let's be serious...
Jan 31st 2005
26
           RE: Come on man, let's be serious...
Feb 01st 2005
52
      You missed my point. Half of the population
Jan 28th 2005
25
           And you are missing mine...
Jan 31st 2005
27
                but you never read point 9 of the original ten point program..
Jan 31st 2005
28
                Okay...
Jan 31st 2005
30
                BUT...the problem is not that ppl thrive off the "weakness"
Jan 31st 2005
33
                     You make some excellent points...if i am
Jan 31st 2005
34
                          i gotchu.
Jan 31st 2005
36
                good points but
Jan 31st 2005
35
                     but you can't read point 8 w/o reading point 9
Jan 31st 2005
37
                          Ok, if you have access to it
Jan 31st 2005
38
                               the original #9:
Jan 31st 2005
39
                                    Question Brother Shakur,
Jan 31st 2005
41
                                         it's my understanding that it was retroactive...
Jan 31st 2005
43
                                         I need to go back and read
Jan 31st 2005
45
                                              lol...ideals get a bad wrap, imo
Jan 31st 2005
49
                                         Yeah, that was my question...
Jan 31st 2005
50
                RE: And you are missing mine...
Jan 31st 2005
40
they were wrong on a couple of different levels....
Jan 28th 2005
18
finally, a thread I can get down with....
Jan 31st 2005
29
Once again, I'm trying to have a serious
Jan 31st 2005
31
      i know you cant handle the truth,
Jan 31st 2005
32
i think it's kind of implied in there....
Jan 31st 2005
51
i wouldn't say "flat" wrong...
Feb 01st 2005
53

HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Thu Jan-27-05 11:34 AM

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1. "they revised their entire platform in 1971...it then read:"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

9. WE WANT FREEDOM FOR ALL BLACK AND OPPRESSED PEOPLE NOW HELD IN U. S. FEDERAL, STATE, COUNTY, CITY AND MILITARY PRISONS AND JAILS. WE WANT TRIALS BY A JURY OF PEERS FOR All PERSONS CHARGED WITH SO-CALLED CRIMES UNDER THE LAWS OF THIS COUNTRY.

We believe that the many Black and poor oppressed people now held in United States prisons and jails have not received fair and impartial trials under a racist and fascist judicial system and should be free from incarceration. We believe in the ultimate elimination of all wretched, inhuman penal institutions, because the masses of men and women imprisoned inside the United States or by the United States military are the victims of oppressive conditions which are the real cause of their imprisonment. We believe that when persons are brought to trial they must be guaranteed, by the United States, juries of their peers, attorneys of their choice and freedom from imprisonment while awaiting trial.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
10706 posts
Thu Jan-27-05 11:54 AM

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2. "Thanks for the revision...but I still have beef with this:"
In response to Reply # 1
Thu Jan-27-05 11:56 AM

  

          

>We believe in the ultimate elimination of all wretched, >inhuman penal institutions, because the masses of men and >women imprisoned inside the United States or by the United >States military are the victims of oppressive conditions which >are the real cause of their imprisonment.

I am not saying that people haven't been affected by European imperialism...I would be a fool to say that. However, the above statement takes personal responsibility and common decency out of the equation, and gives people excuses to partake in animalistic behavior. I don't buy the "the Devil made me do it" mentality. Just because outside forces try to dehumanize and demonize us, that doesn't mean we have to fall for their wicked tactics.

PEACE

"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Thu Jan-27-05 12:03 PM

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3. "but what's the point of prisons?"
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

*proceeds to make a prison abolition post*

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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MilesMarc
Member since Jan 26th 2005
44 posts
Fri Jan-28-05 10:13 AM

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20. "RE: but what's the point of prisons?"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

The point of prison is punishment...to take away a person freedom nothing more nothing less...ain't nothing wrong with prisons, it's the system that places innocent people in prison.

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Tue Feb-01-05 08:58 AM

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54. "is "punishment" the most appropriate way to deal with"
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

transgressor in a "democracy"?

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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AbdulJaleel
Charter member
23875 posts
Thu Jan-27-05 12:25 PM

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4. "political prisoners"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

like jamil al-amin and mumia abu jamal

where the police was just after them

i have to disagree

free h rap brown

www.instagram.com/schemeofthings

  

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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
10706 posts
Thu Jan-27-05 01:03 PM

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5. "There is a HUGE difference between a"
In response to Reply # 4
Thu Jan-27-05 01:06 PM

  

          

political prisoner, and a low-life criminal. That is like comparing apples to trucks. You can't equate the two. And it makes no sense to say: "Well, If I want to free Mumia Abu Jamal, and free Jamil Al-Amin, and free Leonard Peltier, and free Geronimo Pratt...I need to free Slim the Pimp, Mike the Murderer, Chester the Molester, and Crack-selling Chris from around the way..."

"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Thu Jan-27-05 01:08 PM

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6. "isn't all crime political tho?"
In response to Reply # 5


  

          

*goes back to prison abolition post*

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
10706 posts
Thu Jan-27-05 01:28 PM

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7. "Nope, not at all. There is NOTHING"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

"political" about a Cat #1 going to a club, trying to talk to Cat #2's date...Cat # 2, because he "ain't going out like a punk", starts a fight, breaks a beer bottle, and cuts Cat #1's throat, and Cat# 1 bleeds to death right there at the club's buffett set-up in front of the hot wings...

Ain't nothing political 'bout that, Black.

"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Thu Jan-27-05 01:31 PM

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8. "i see politics of gender all over that..."
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

but who knows.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
10706 posts
Thu Jan-27-05 01:39 PM

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9. "That is a nice semantical answer and all,"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

but the bottom line is this: gender politics, racial politics, or social politics SHOULD NOT override HUMAN DECENCY and make you kill a cat for trying to talk to your date...PERIOD.

"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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johnny_domino
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Fri Jan-28-05 11:14 AM

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21. "we don't often agree"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          

and I've got plenty of problems with the prison system and prison philosophy as it currently stands in the U.S.

But we definitely agree here.

  

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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
10706 posts
Fri Jan-28-05 12:19 PM

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23. "What have we ever disagreed on?"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

Besides maybe me pulling for the Yankees in last years ALCS?

"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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johnny_domino
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Mon Jan-31-05 12:23 PM

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42. "homosexuality, existence of god"
In response to Reply # 23
Mon Jan-31-05 12:23 PM

  

          

n/m

  

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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
10706 posts
Mon Jan-31-05 12:27 PM

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44. "What exactly is your stance on"
In response to Reply # 42


  

          

those subjects again? Refresh my memory...

"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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johnny_domino
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Mon Jan-31-05 12:47 PM

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47. "I'm an atheist, and pro-gay"
In response to Reply # 44
Mon Jan-31-05 12:50 PM

  

          

Well I dunno if that's the right term. But basically the idea that gay rights are civil rights, I'm for gay people having the same protection under law that other people/groups are entitled to, and I don't think it's a "special right" to spell that out in law, so they can't legally be discriminated against.

We don't often come up directly against each other, but I feel like we often just don't often post about the same stuff. Not that we always disagree, but we're rarely in the same post, posting along the same lines.

  

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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
10706 posts
Mon Jan-31-05 12:52 PM

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48. "I gotcha...PEACE"
In response to Reply # 47


  

          


"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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Yank
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Thu Jan-27-05 01:57 PM

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10. "He (They) also said"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

that those same defendants were to be re-tried by there own peers within the community to recieve a fair and just trial.

How many of those dudes do you think got a fair trial regardless if they were innocent or guilty.

Lies run sprints.
Truths run marathons.

  

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Parvaneh27
Member since Oct 29th 2004
3347 posts
Thu Jan-27-05 04:00 PM

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11. "I think you're right about a lot of what you said."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

However, I doubt they wanted to free the "low life" criminals you're mentioning.
The platform was a tool used to help spread their message, so there's some rhetoric and glamour involved to get the main point across which is that they wanted to do something about the unfair imprisonment that was going on.

  

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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
10706 posts
Mon Jan-31-05 12:43 PM

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46. "And this is why some people who want"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

change have such a hard time getting support and serious consideration:

>The platform was a tool used to help spread their message,
>so there's some rhetoric and glamour involved to get the
>main point across which is that they wanted to do something
>about the unfair imprisonment that was going on.

The REAL issues get buried in wild, shock value, illogical demands...


"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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chrisdefendorf
Member since Dec 27th 2004
1731 posts
Thu Jan-27-05 04:15 PM

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12. "Americans are stupid becasue Guilt makes anyyou stupid"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Americans believe in punishment, which has never worked once.

Rehabilitate the suckers. Educate the fuckers.

But Punishment? No way. Martyrs punish everyone but themselves. That's why we have crime. Criminals (real criminals, not Political prisoners) are martyrs.

I know a brother who was repeatedly jailed becasue of is involvement in the Panthers. I talked to him about this shit.

Look at all the AbuGharibs here. I'm with Malachi on this one except the death penalty he's advocating, but I'm not saying I don't feel what he's feeling. He just believes in punishment.

But he can't be so bad, huh? he's on OK, he's got PE on his avatar, and he knows about the Nutcracker. Sweet.

Wide awake and dreaming,
Christopher

My best of OK blog will be up by 11pm, by th e way.

Official Whiteboy"?, WORD.
Google "Chris Defendorf "and/or
chrisdefendorf
http://profiles.myspace.com/users/10450673

you don't need to know my sig, because you know my steez. I have left okayplayer and

and and and

you don't need to know.

myspace.com/raspberry

  

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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
10706 posts
Thu Jan-27-05 04:25 PM

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13. "Please, PLEASE take your foolishness out of"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

my post...and not once did I advocate the death penalty.

"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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chrisdefendorf
Member since Dec 27th 2004
1731 posts
Fri Jan-28-05 06:13 AM

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17. "RE: Please, PLEASE take your foolishness out of"
In response to Reply # 13


  

          

didnt you say under the jail?

PEACE,
Christopher
Official Whiteboy"?, WORD.
Google "Chris Defendorf "and/or
chrisdefendorf
http://profiles.myspace.com/users/
10450673

you don't need to know my sig, because you know my steez. I have left okayplayer and

and and and

you don't need to know.

myspace.com/raspberry

  

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ConcreteCharlie
Member since Nov 21st 2002
71344 posts
Thu Jan-27-05 04:47 PM

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14. "to me..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

they were never flat wrong because they were totally inconsistent. one minute these bols are marxists, then nationalists and so forth. no consistent ideology over any number of years. also as i think someone mentioned point number eight was later revised, something about fair trials. i dunno, i was big into the panthers but in my opinion what they did in terms of organization was a lot more important than most of what they had to say because they waffled quite a bit over the years.

And you will know MY JACKET IS GOLD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

  

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Whateva
Member since Jul 07th 2003
4637 posts
Thu Jan-27-05 09:25 PM

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15. "No it's actually right."
In response to Reply # 0
Thu Jan-27-05 09:26 PM

  

          

America's system has been proven time and again to be institutionally racist. The logic is how can a black man get a constitutionally fair trial in the legal extension of a system set up to be unfair to African Americans. If the system is unfair to blacks, and the law is apart of the system, then law is unfair to blacks too. This makes any case ever brought against a black man invalid according to our Constitution.

***************************************
"Science" and Religion are the two most dangerous weapons of ideology. See holocaust.

Why do "scientists" constantly produce statistics based on "race", a social construct?

  

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LegacyNS
Member since Jan 16th 2004
38043 posts
Fri Jan-28-05 05:00 AM

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16. "be that as it may"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          


We KNOW that some of those folx were guilty. I could agree with coming up with some standard for reviewing cases & permitting new trials but just let everyone go free?

I think that's about as counterproductive as locking up folx w/o fair trials is racist.



```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
-------------------------------------------------CLOSING CREDITS--------------------------------------------------------```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````


“Why ya’ll fools claim corners, we gone claim theories..
Ya’ll some stickball ngaz, we the World Series..” - Dove - De La Soul


"Before I battle strangers, I make em sign disclaimers
That states they're aware of the danger.... " - Canibus


"I honestly can’t see myself voting for someone that I could beat in a spelling bee. I guess if he can’t spell something, he’ll blow it up. How do you spell Baghdad? BOOM! That’s how you spell it!" – D.L. Hughley

"And on the 7th day, the Lord made NFL Sunday Ticket in HD, & it was good..."


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<---- 5....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dlgiritpmfo

=======================================

  

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Whateva
Member since Jul 07th 2003
4637 posts
Fri Jan-28-05 06:22 AM

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19. "Yup. It forces reform in our legal system."
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

People will be extrememly angry, but our for the tension between races to end, everyone has to be treated like Americans. Our constitution says, no fair trial, no conviction. There's no gray area. Now is it feasible? Probably not. In theory it works, but in reality some deserve to be in jail(or punished in some way for their malicious acts. Leave the drug users and political prisoners out.). In any case, any half-brain idiot knows that 47% of the world prisons, 80% of the prisoners, and less than 1 percent of the world's population just doesn't add up to justice.

***************************************
"Science" and Religion are the two most dangerous weapons of ideology. See holocaust.

Why do "scientists" constantly produce statistics based on "race", a social construct?

  

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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
10706 posts
Fri Jan-28-05 12:15 PM

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22. "This is an 'on-paper' solution:"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

>America's system has been proven time and again to be
>institutionally racist. The logic is how can a black man get
>a constitutionally fair trial in the legal extension of a
>system set up to be unfair to African Americans. If the
>system is unfair to blacks, and the law is apart of the
>system, then law is unfair to blacks too. This makes any
>case ever brought against a black man invalid according to
>our Constitution.

These words look good and noble and right "on paper", and on paper ONLY. In reality, it is as wrong as two left shoes. And I'm looking at it from a "revolutionary" standpoint...allow me to explain:

DRUG DEALING is detrimental to our communities, it is predatory. Drug-dealers prey on the weaknesses of people to feed their own selfish greed. They are selling a false "escapism" that destroys the clear-headedness that we as a people need. Let's not mention the effects on drug user's mental, physical, and psychological health. It makes the goal of nation-building all the more difficult when you have a segment of that nation selling pain, and profiting from that pain.

PIMPS who exploit our women, and have them out there on the strip are disgusting. They turn our women into little more than sexual slaves. He has no respect for them. They are a commodity to him. These sisters have little to no respect for themselves, they bring children into this world with no moral guidelines. Their sons are raised with no respect for women, and their daughters are raised with no respect for themselves. A cycle that is oftentimes doomed to repeat itself is started. Mary McLeod Bethune said that "The true worth of a race must be measured by the character of it's woman." Why do we want anyone back among us who would destroy the "worth" of our people by mentally, psychologically and physically tearing down something that should be precious to us? The ones who feed, nurture and educate us from the time we are born...our beloved women.

PEDOPHILES who exploit and destroy young lives before they even get a chance to really begin...you want THEM back in the community? How can you trust ANYBODY who is SICK ENOUGH to sexually abuse a child? Our children are the future...our babies are the ones that we are supposed to love and nurture and protect...and somebody who will scar these young brothers and sisters FOR LIFE to satisfy their sick sexual desires deserves to be locked in the most terrible of conditions. PERIOD.

Black MURDERERS of BLACK people also need to stay locked up. For centuries we have had to put up with the oppressor de-valuing Black life, and a Black man is going to follow suit? I don't want to hear that it is because of conditioning. Yeah, crackers have tried to tell us that our lives aren't worth anything for the past 400 years. BUT, plain old GOD-given conscience should tell you not to murder your own. Where is your sense of self-preservation? Where is the NATURAL AFFECTION for your own people? And what is funny is often times the white man has this type of cat so SHOOK, that he wouldn't raise a hand against a cracker...but he'll shoot another brother over a female, because the other brother owes him $20 from a dice game, or because he stepped on his new T-Mac Adidas.

All of the aforementioned behavior is COUNTER-REVOLUTIONARY. It destroys the fabric of BLACK LIVES. People who participate in such behavior FOR WHATEVER REASON are detrimental to our upliftment on all kinds of levels...and what is more, if your COUNTER-REVOLUTIONARY behavior that serves our enemy's designs lands you in the white man's jails and prisons, that is what you get...we are better off without you...don't drop the soap.

PEACE




"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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jahmani3
Charter member
454 posts
Fri Jan-28-05 01:09 PM

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24. "2 Questions"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

>DRUG DEALING is detrimental to our communities, it is
>predatory. Drug-dealers prey on the weaknesses of people to
>feed their own selfish greed. They are selling a false
>"escapism" that destroys the clear-headedness that we as a
>people need. Let's not mention the effects on drug user's
>mental, physical, and psychological health. It makes the
>goal of nation-building all the more difficult when you have
>a segment of that nation selling pain, and profiting from
>that pain.


All Drugs? Marijuana, Asprin, Sugar, or are we talking all illegal drugs? There are people in jail for having small amounts of Marijuana that IMHO should be free. What about the cigarette companies or alcohol companies, should they be jailed? (IMHO more so that the Marijuana dealer, never seen that advertisement.)
>
>PIMPS who exploit our women, and have them out there on the
>strip are disgusting. They turn our women into little more
>than sexual slaves. He has no respect for them. They are a
>commodity to him. These sisters have little to no respect
>for themselves, they bring children into this world with no
>moral guidelines. Their sons are raised with no respect for
>women, and their daughters are raised with no respect for
>themselves. A cycle that is oftentimes doomed to repeat
>itself is started. Mary McLeod Bethune said that "The true
>worth of a race must be measured by the character of it's
>woman." Why do we want anyone back among us who would
>destroy the "worth" of our people by mentally,
>psychologically and physically tearing down something that
>should be precious to us? The ones who feed, nurture and
>educate us from the time we are born...our beloved women.

Some of these Pimps are WOMEN & just like video hofessionals, SOME of the fingers need to point at the women who chose this profession. Now do these women need to be punished? I feel they need help and education. Choices out of despair are always good choices.

<<< Sig >>>>

http://profiles.myspace.com/users/8577171

"Niggas ain't become American til
9/11" Our Immortal Negro
Prophet Talib Kweli

"Peace cannot be achieved
through violence, it can only be
attained through understanding."
EINSTEIN

Your Mother is the closest thing
to God. Nas -Vibe Magazine-

"What's the difference between a
Catholic Priest and acne.....Acne
doesn't come on your face til
you're 14." OUCH

"Peace cannot be achieved through violence, it can only be attained through understanding." R.W. Emerson

Peace & Blessings
One Love
R.D.

  

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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
10706 posts
Mon Jan-31-05 06:36 AM

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26. "Come on man, let's be serious..."
In response to Reply # 24


  

          


>All Drugs? Marijuana, Asprin, Sugar, or are we talking all
>illegal drugs? There are people in jail for having small
>amounts of Marijuana that IMHO should be free. What about
>the cigarette companies or alcohol companies, should they be
>jailed? (IMHO more so that the Marijuana dealer, never seen
>that advertisement.)
You know exactly what I mean when I "drugs". I'm talking about illegal drugs, I'm not talking about aspirin, sugar, coffee or tea. I'm not even talking about tobacco, because as much as I hate tobacco products, and I personally think they should be banned, the fact of the matter is that tobacco isn't illegal. Same thing with alcohol, I personally don't drink and I've seen alcohol abuse ruin lives, families, etc....but once again, alcohol isn't illegal. As far as marijuana goes...I know I might step on some toes, but I really think we as a people need to let the weed go as well. What REAL positive comes from people smoking marijuana? Escapism? The inhalation of smoke into the lungs can't be good for you, and I've read that the THC in marijuana does all types of damage to the brain. And once again, it is illegal.

>Some of these Pimps are WOMEN & just like video
>hofessionals, SOME of the fingers need to point at the women
>who chose this profession. Now do these women need to be
>punished? I feel they need help and education. Choices out
>of despair are always good choices.
I agree...to an extent. I'm not saying that prostitutes(on various levels) don't bear any responsibility for their "line of work". Some of them are in this "profession" due to bad life choices. Some women are prostitutes because having sex is no big thing to them, so they may as well make some loot if they are gonna be having sex. However, many of them are young girls who are victims of physical and sexual abuse at home, become runaways, and then get exploited and turned out by some vulture pimp.

"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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jahmani3
Charter member
454 posts
Tue Feb-01-05 05:10 AM

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52. "RE: Come on man, let's be serious..."
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

>
>>All Drugs? Marijuana, Asprin, Sugar, or are we talking all
>>illegal drugs? There are people in jail for having small
>>amounts of Marijuana that IMHO should be free. What about
>>the cigarette companies or alcohol companies, should they be
>>jailed? (IMHO more so that the Marijuana dealer, never seen
>>that advertisement.)
>You know exactly what I mean when I "drugs". I'm talking
>about illegal drugs, I'm not talking about aspirin, sugar,
>coffee or tea. I'm not even talking about tobacco, because
>as much as I hate tobacco products, and I personally think
>they should be banned, the fact of the matter is that
>tobacco isn't illegal. Same thing with alcohol, I
>personally don't drink and I've seen alcohol abuse ruin
>lives, families, etc....but once again, alcohol isn't
>illegal. As far as marijuana goes...I know I might step on
>some toes, but I really think we as a people need to let the
>weed go as well. What REAL positive comes from people
>smoking marijuana? Escapism? The inhalation of smoke into
>the lungs can't be good for you, and I've read that the THC
>in marijuana does all types of damage to the brain. And
>once again, it is illegal.

I'm not sure where you read about the negative affects of Marijuana, but here's a link you may find interesting.

http://www.askmen.com/sports/health/20_mens_health.html

I know it has effects on the lungs, smoking anything will, but like cigarettes, that's a choice of the user.

Have you ever seen the Budweiser commercial talking about once prohibition was over, "This is the cart that carried the first case of beer to the White House". That commercial makes me sick. I know alcohol is legal now, but why? Better yet why did it become legal? I agree with you it's bad, though I'm know hypocrite, I keep a bottle of Hennessey & Bacardi in the house. I want to be the first farmer to transport a pound of herb to the White House once it becomes legal. Then have a commercial in 50 years talking about "This is the Navigator that carried Maui Waui to the President of the USA".

>
>>Some of these Pimps are WOMEN & just like video
>>hofessionals, SOME of the fingers need to point at the women
>>who chose this profession. Now do these women need to be
>>punished? I feel they need help and education. Choices out
>>of despair are not always good choices.
>I agree...to an extent. I'm not saying that prostitutes(on
>various levels) don't bear any responsibility for their
>"line of work". Some of them are in this "profession" due
>to bad life choices. Some women are prostitutes because
>having sex is no big thing to them, so they may as well make
>some loot if they are gonna be having sex. However, many of
>them are young girls who are victims of physical and sexual
>abuse at home, become runaways, and then get exploited and
>turned out by some vulture pimp.

No argument there, but pimping as a profession, while disgusting to me, does not always constitute as tough a penalty. Hell, prostitutes are usually released the next morning. If these Male or Female pimps are beating or forcing women to do their bidding, then by all means lock'em up for battery or misguiding a minor(whatever the charge). I was just saying it's not always forced.

<<< Sig >>>>

http://profiles.myspace.com/users/8577171

"Niggas ain't become American til
9/11" Our Immortal Negro
Prophet Talib Kweli

"Peace cannot be achieved
through violence, it can only be
attained through understanding."
EINSTEIN

Your Mother is the closest thing
to God. Nas -Vibe Magazine-

"What's the difference between a
Catholic Priest and acne.....Acne
doesn't come on your face til
you're 14." OUCH

"Peace cannot be achieved through violence, it can only be attained through understanding." R.W. Emerson

Peace & Blessings
One Love
R.D.

  

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Whateva
Member since Jul 07th 2003
4637 posts
Fri Jan-28-05 03:29 PM

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25. "You missed my point. Half of the population"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

of African Americans could be rabid serial killers and this would still apply. It's the simple principle. No fair trial, no conviction. That's truly American. That's respecting what makes America "good"; The Constitution.

Major reform in America's system is the only solution. Either that or getting rid of the "deviants". Hmmmm... Seems like the latter would be easier, but that's just me.

***************************************
"Science" and Religion are the two most dangerous weapons of ideology. See holocaust.

Why do "scientists" constantly produce statistics based on "race", a social construct?

  

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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
10706 posts
Mon Jan-31-05 06:44 AM

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27. "And you are missing mine..."
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

>of African Americans could be rabid serial killers and this
>would still apply. It's the simple principle. No fair trial,
>no conviction. That's truly American. That's respecting what
>makes America "good"; The Constitution.
>
>Major reform in America's system is the only solution.
>Either that or getting rid of the "deviants". Hmmmm... Seems
>like the latter would be easier, but that's just me.

On paper that SOUNDS like the noble thing to do, that SOUNDS like you are righting wrongs. The fact of the matter is this you are gonna be looking real stupid when you have EVEN MORE drugs on the streets, more and more drug related crimes in our neighborhoods, and littles kids getting raped left and right, all because you've let some cats out of jail on some technicality type stuff when in actuality they NEEDED to be locked up in the first place.

"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Mon Jan-31-05 06:58 AM

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28. "but you never read point 9 of the original ten point program.."
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

or it least you failed to post it.

nowhere did the panthers suggest that there weren't folks that did not commit crimes. they just said that every Black person charged WITH a crime needs to get a new trial with a jury of their peers, member of their community.

is that really dead wrong?

my second point is...MOST PEOPLE THAT ARE IN PRISON ARE IN FOR NON-VIOLENT OFFENSES. so your point about pedophiles and murderers is moot cuz no one is saying "let the serial killers stay free." your point about "pimps" is always moot because few ppl actually go to prison for facilitating prostitution. pimps are usually in jail for a drug related offense or a violent crime.

lastly, when we talk about criminalization of drug trafficking, we need to be explicitly clear about the drug trade. DEALERS DONT MAKE PPL USE DRUGS. if there were no Black dealers, Black ppl will use illicit drugs. i'm of the opinion that we need to have a better (and by better, i mean more honest and non-condemning) conversation on why folks use drugs. simply ask two questions, "what's a drug?" and "are all drugs bad?"

the real problem with the drug trade, imo, is the violence that surrounds it. that's what's truly detrimental to the community.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
10706 posts
Mon Jan-31-05 07:40 AM

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30. "Okay..."
In response to Reply # 28


  

          


>my second point is...MOST PEOPLE THAT ARE IN PRISON ARE IN
>FOR NON-VIOLENT OFFENSES. so your point about pedophiles and
>murderers is moot cuz no one is saying "let the serial
>killers stay free." your point about "pimps" is always moot
>because few ppl actually go to prison for facilitating
>prostitution. pimps are usually in jail for a drug related
>offense or a violent crime.
Just because your crime is "non-violent", does that mean that you are less of a "threat" to society? You may not be likely to go bust a cap in a brother's head, but are your crimes a threat to the FABRIC of society? And by the way, I personally know 2 pimps who have done time for "facilitating prostitution"...my wife's father and her half-brother. Convicted for a prostitution ring...hookers on the street, "massage" parlors, a couple of brothels, the whole 9.

>lastly, when we talk about criminalization of drug
>trafficking, we need to be explicitly clear about the drug
>trade. DEALERS DONT MAKE PPL USE DRUGS. if there were no
>Black dealers, Black ppl will use illicit drugs. i'm of the
>opinion that we need to have a better (and by better, i mean
>more honest and non-condemning) conversation on why folks
>use drugs. simply ask two questions, "what's a drug?" and
>"are all drugs bad?"
>
>the real problem with the drug trade, imo, is the violence
>that surrounds it. that's what's truly detrimental to the
>community.
A couple of comments on the drug subject...you say dealers don't "make" people use drugs. That may be true, but they certainly are a vital part of the "support system" that feeds people's weaknesses...and that has been known to decimate communities...one of the ways that this decimation takes place is via the violence that you refer to...not to mention contributing to the breakdown of the family unit and increases in other forms of crime as well. As far as the criminalization of the drug trade, I am well aware of the fact that the Black kid selling rocks with a 9mm in his waistband is going to be looked at by "white society" as much more of a menace than the white Ivy league school graduate who owns a brokerage or a law firm that is laundering money for his partner's thriving business of importing and wholesaling cocaine from Bolivia. That is where racism rears it's ugly head once again in the legal system. But all that being said, the young brother selling pain and death, and participating in the CYCLE of pain and death still needs to be LOCKED UP. For what crime? Treason, in my opinion.

"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Mon Jan-31-05 08:08 AM

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33. "BUT...the problem is not that ppl thrive off the "weakness""
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

of others...it's that the so-called "weakness" exists in the first place.

you can lock up all the drug dealers and try to rid the world of the drug trade but folks will just find other ways that feed their "weakness."

how about we seek to address the "weaknesses" primarily as opposed to focusing an overwhelming amount of energy, imo, on folks that feed it?

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
10706 posts
Mon Jan-31-05 08:27 AM

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34. "You make some excellent points...if i am"
In response to Reply # 33
Mon Jan-31-05 08:28 AM

  

          

reading you correctly, you are saying fight the infection, not just the symptoms...I concur somewhat. There are a host of factors that contribute to and have contributed to the illness of Black people in America.(both internal and external...)

My thing is this, it doesn't have to be either fight the infection or fight the symptoms. I'm all for fighting the infection, the cause of being sick, but I'm also not opposed to taking something to reduce the fever and get rid of the sore throat...know what I mean?

"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Mon Jan-31-05 08:59 AM

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36. "i gotchu."
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

but don't tell folks to wear a hat to prevent the flu, if they don't own shoes.

you know what i'm saying?

i'm not suggesting an either or just a deemphasis on punitive responses.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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LegacyNS
Member since Jan 16th 2004
38043 posts
Mon Jan-31-05 08:33 AM

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35. "good points but"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

in MALACHI's original post it says..


"WE WANT FREEDOM FOR ALL BLACK MEN (etc ... )"

I don't think anyone would be against granting new trials since we're all fully aware of the bias inherent in the system.

Of course the exorbitant sentences of some non-violent offenders, in relationship to the punishment for violent offenders, is an issue that needs to be addressed. This is especially true as it relates to drug related offenses & the disparity in sentencing for certain substances.

However, we play a role the drug trade since we participate in the trafficking of drugs throughout our community. The mantra can't be "until we stop the boats & planes, we're not going to address the problem in the hood" ( not saying that's your position but I'm just illustrating a point ). We have a much better chance of controlling a community than battling "the forces that be" which permit the drug trade on a larger scale. So, we have do some something about drug trafficking because as you mentioned dealers kill people over who will sell drugs ( as well as innocents caught in the crossfire ) regardless of folx desire to use them. Both issues need to be addressed but there's no reason they can't be addressed in parallel.

The fact of the matter is.. fair trial or not, some of those folx need to be locked up. If we could devise a way to review cases & grant new trails, I'd be all for it. I just don't agree with "releasing" folx which is what the original post suggests. Now, if that should be interpreted as "granting new trails", I'm with it.





```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
-------------------------------------------------CLOSING CREDITS--------------------------------------------------------```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````


“Why ya’ll fools claim corners, we gone claim theories..
Ya’ll some stickball ngaz, we the World Series..” - Dove - De La Soul


"Before I battle strangers, I make em sign disclaimers
That states they're aware of the danger.... " - Canibus


"I honestly can’t see myself voting for someone that I could beat in a spelling bee. I guess if he can’t spell something, he’ll blow it up. How do you spell Baghdad? BOOM! That’s how you spell it!" – D.L. Hughley

"And on the 7th day, the Lord made NFL Sunday Ticket in HD, & it was good..."


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<---- 5....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dlgiritpmfo

=======================================

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Mon Jan-31-05 09:01 AM

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37. "but you can't read point 8 w/o reading point 9"
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

it's just an unbalanced critique.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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LegacyNS
Member since Jan 16th 2004
38043 posts
Mon Jan-31-05 09:55 AM

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38. "Ok, if you have access to it"
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

post it so we can have a more comprehensive understanding..

```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
-------------------------------------------------CLOSING CREDITS--------------------------------------------------------```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````


“Why ya’ll fools claim corners, we gone claim theories..
Ya’ll some stickball ngaz, we the World Series..” - Dove - De La Soul


"Before I battle strangers, I make em sign disclaimers
That states they're aware of the danger.... " - Canibus


"I honestly can’t see myself voting for someone that I could beat in a spelling bee. I guess if he can’t spell something, he’ll blow it up. How do you spell Baghdad? BOOM! That’s how you spell it!" – D.L. Hughley

"And on the 7th day, the Lord made NFL Sunday Ticket in HD, & it was good..."


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<---- 5....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dlgiritpmfo

=======================================

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Mon Jan-31-05 10:13 AM

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39. "the original #9:"
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

We Want All Black People When Brought To Trial To Be Tried In
Court By A Jury Of Their Peer Group Or People From Their Black
Communities, As Defined By The Constitution Of The United States.

We believe that the courts should follow the United States Constitution so that Black people will receive fair trials. The Fourteenth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution gives a man a right to be tried by his peer group. A peer is a person from a similar economic, social, religious, geographical, environmental, historical and racial background. To do this the court will be forced to select a jury from the Black community from which the Black defendant came. We have been, and are being, tried by all-White juries that have no understanding of the "average reasoning man" of the Black community.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
10706 posts
Mon Jan-31-05 12:12 PM

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41. "Question Brother Shakur,"
In response to Reply # 39
Mon Jan-31-05 12:12 PM

  

          

does the original #9 have reference retroactively to all the incarcerated Black people that would be let go from #8, or simply going forward?

"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Mon Jan-31-05 12:25 PM

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43. "it's my understanding that it was retroactive..."
In response to Reply # 41
Mon Jan-31-05 12:25 PM

  

          

i may be wrong tho. but i'm pretty sure Huey Newton addresses it in Revolutionary Suicide (but imma have to check).

i'd also like to also remind that huey newton was 24 when this was written, so we should be mindful of that.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
10706 posts
Mon Jan-31-05 12:36 PM

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45. "I need to go back and read"
In response to Reply # 43


  

          

"Revolutionary Suicide" again anyway...I haven't read it since '89 or '90.

But you also make an interesting point. Huey was 24 when the original 10 point program was written...don't you think that it is full of an angry, idealistic, revolutionary 24 year-olds "fire", but not quite enough "reasoning"?

PEACE

"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Mon Jan-31-05 01:57 PM

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49. "lol...ideals get a bad wrap, imo"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

ideals are integral in establishing organizing principles. what's your reference point otherwise?

there has to be a world that you seek to build, short term and long term. now,i'm not advocating total ignoring practicality (that would be silly) but to elevate it only allows you to work on the turf predefined by the system you seek to change.

you need both.

sure. there's idealism in the ten point program but for all it's idealism of the points, the party fought to make them real. so criticism of the idealism is only relevent, imo, when there's no work put in to employ those changes.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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LegacyNS
Member since Jan 16th 2004
38043 posts
Mon Jan-31-05 03:40 PM

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50. "Yeah, that was my question..."
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

If it wasn't,.. I definitely have a problem w/ #8..
If not,.. then that's fine..

```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
-------------------------------------------------CLOSING CREDITS--------------------------------------------------------```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````


“Why ya’ll fools claim corners, we gone claim theories..
Ya’ll some stickball ngaz, we the World Series..” - Dove - De La Soul


"Before I battle strangers, I make em sign disclaimers
That states they're aware of the danger.... " - Canibus


"I honestly can’t see myself voting for someone that I could beat in a spelling bee. I guess if he can’t spell something, he’ll blow it up. How do you spell Baghdad? BOOM! That’s how you spell it!" – D.L. Hughley

"And on the 7th day, the Lord made NFL Sunday Ticket in HD, & it was good..."


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<---- 5....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dlgiritpmfo

=======================================

  

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Whateva
Member since Jul 07th 2003
4637 posts
Mon Jan-31-05 12:03 PM

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40. "RE: And you are missing mine..."
In response to Reply # 27


  

          


>On paper that SOUNDS like the noble thing to do, that SOUNDS
>like you are righting wrongs. The fact of the matter is
>this you are gonna be looking real stupid when you have EVEN
>MORE drugs on the streets, more and more drug related crimes
>in our neighborhoods, and littles kids getting raped left
>and right, all because you've let some cats out of jail on
>some technicality type stuff when in actuality they NEEDED
>to be locked up in the first place.

I simply don't believe it's stupidity. No fair trial, no conviction. That's not a technicality, it's what mkes America, America. Anything less, is corrupt. I don't know about you, but this American refuses to be content with a corrupt legal system. For christ's sake, this is our great nation's sense of right and wrong; the first two things we learn as children. If you read my earlier post, I've even stated that it's probably not feasible, but it is, in fact, the correct answer.


***************************************
"Science" and Religion are the two most dangerous weapons of ideology. See holocaust.

Why do "scientists" constantly produce statistics based on "race", a social construct?

  

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StillWaters
Charter member
4846 posts
Fri Jan-28-05 06:16 AM

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18. "they were wrong on a couple of different levels...."
In response to Reply # 0


          

snd they still r

Honor the Iris's in your life!

RIP James "Jay Dee" Yancey


religion is the aspiration of man toward an idealized existence, in which the functions of god and man are harmonious, even identical. (c)amiri baraka

  

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suavebr0
Member since Jan 31st 2005
28 posts
Mon Jan-31-05 07:09 AM

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29. "finally, a thread I can get down with...."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

...now THIS is what i'm talking about people!

wet dreams:
http://www.anncoulter.org/

a true american hero:
http://www.geocities.com/tnudc/edgerton.html

  

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MALACHI
Member since Jan 22nd 2003
10706 posts
Mon Jan-31-05 07:49 AM

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31. "Once again, I'm trying to have a serious"
In response to Reply # 29


  

          

discussion. An interchange of ideas and thoughts whether other's views agree with mine or not. I started this post because I thought the subject was worthy of intelligent discussion.

I would appreciate not having childishness infused in my posts. Thank you for your future cooperation.

"Is it not one father that all of us have? Is it not one God that has created us? Why is it that we deal treacherously with one another?" --Malachi 2:10

  

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suavebr0
Member since Jan 31st 2005
28 posts
Mon Jan-31-05 07:58 AM

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32. "i know you cant handle the truth,"
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

but you're the one who ends up looking like an idiot for refusing to address any of my points.

wet dreams:
http://www.anncoulter.org/

a true american hero:
http://www.geocities.com/tnudc/edgerton.html

  

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hdub
Member since Oct 19th 2004
3264 posts
Mon Jan-31-05 04:29 PM

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51. "i think it's kind of implied in there...."
In response to Reply # 0


          

...that they would give them a retrial- of course the logistics behind this would be maddening, but so would the logistics behind freeing every black man in an american prison because a few of them probably really deserve to be in there

...(the end)...

  

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Fiver
Member since Oct 18th 2004
1090 posts
Tue Feb-01-05 05:45 AM

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53. "i wouldn't say "flat" wrong..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

...but:

1) The 10 Point Program was contradictory - 1 point demanding seccession and then another demanding assistance from the government they were attacking.

2) Eldridge Cleaver - wow, I mean WOW.

that out of the way, they did a lot for a community: a community that was completely disassociated from the rest of America.

The Black Panthers were set to self-destruct, but the Federal Government (COINTELPRO) helped raise the party to a level of martyrdom. Now, the reality of the movement has been so stretched to fit American Romanticism, I doubt people could truly look at it with the objectivity needed. I base this on watching Bobby Seale speak and noticing what the academics held as truth and what Mr. Seale said.

grendel has had an accident, so may you all.

  

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