I was watching some Maury Povich ("I'm 16 and my older boyfriend is cheating!") and Jenny Jones ("My family is forcing me to strip!"). I started to think about the way most people think about poor whites. And most of us just like to laugh. "Stupid trailer trash, haha". Now, Black people and other minorites have enough problems to concentrate on without worrying about whites, but isn't it slightly wrong when we cry over our problems but make light of all the social dysfunctions affecting lots of young white people? The baby-having, the woman-abusing, the drinking, the low self-esteem... it's all very saddening. But we're too busy mocking. Even though, as you can see from watching those shows, our problems are not only similar but entangled in many lower-income areas where there are both blacks and whites. I see some of what my high school friends used to call "white trash" and I almost feel like they are more equipped to understand some hip hop than my black ass, pardon my language. But whether being poor gives you more right to claim hip hop is a whole nother question. Anyway, what do you think, people?

just a matter of what you think the most important way to see the world is. some think it's race, some income, some religion, some nationality, others politics, etc. Marx hated nationalism and religion (the opiate of the people) because they distracted people from what he thought was the most important way to divide society - along class lines. who's to say which division captures society the best? personally i don't put too much stock into religious differences, but i do think economics (income, class, etc) is an important division to pay attention too.
______________________________________
"if you tremble with indignation at every injustice then you are a comrade of mine."
- Che Guevara

Valuable and enlightening comment. But can you clarify what your opinion on my specific topic is?

how much of that shit is really real? i think its all played up cuz sensationalism sells and people (god knows why) wanna see other peoples' dirty laundry.

i'm not too clear on what your question is and where you want this discussion to go. all i know is poverty sucks and its unjust.

sunny

I find it hard to believe that the indignant yet shameful look in the young pregnant woman whose sister takes the money she makes stripping to dress her son in Tommy Hilfiger is fake. The point of this post is to discuss whether we disregard the situation of poor white people as something to laugh at.

>I
>see some of what my
>high school friends used to
>call "white trash" and I
>almost feel like they are
>more equipped to understand some
>hip hop than my black
>ass, pardon my language.
>But whether being poor gives
>you more right to claim
>hip hop is a whole
>nother question. Anyway, what
>do you think, people?

a lot of hiphop is all about what it means to be black in america. emcees speak on race all the time, and the american public associates hiphop and rap with "black." well, what if black/white isn't the best way to see the world? what if it is rich/poor? everyone is gonna have their own opinion but yes, i think that being poor and disadvantaged in america is a lot more in tune with what hiphop is all about. the fact that a lot more black people are poor than white people might make people associate hiphop only with black, not also with poor. that's what i'm tryin to say... i think. btw i put up an explanation of OEO that you asked about earlier. check it out and let me know what you think.

Peace
______________________________________
"if you tremble with indignation at every injustice then you are a comrade of mine."
- Che Guevara

Interesting opinion. I haven't gotten a chance to take the time to read the OEO post yet, but I'll try to soon. Great sig, btw (wow, I wouldn't have understood that last part back before I joined the boards).

>>I
>>see some of what my
>>high school friends used to
>>call "white trash" and I
>>almost feel like they are
>>more equipped to understand some
>>hip hop than my black
>>ass, pardon my language.
>>But whether being poor gives
>>you more right to claim
>>hip hop is a whole
>>nother question. Anyway, what
>>do you think, people?
>
>a lot of hiphop is all
>about what it means to
>be black in america.
>emcees speak on race all
>the time, and the american
>public associates hiphop and rap
>with "black." well, what
>if black/white isn't the best
>way to see the world?
> what if it is
>rich/poor? everyone is gonna
>have their own opinion but
>yes, i think that being
>poor and disadvantaged in america
>is a lot more in
>tune with what hiphop is
>all about.

The South Bronx and other NY neighborhoods where hip-hop grew were not solely African-American. They were diverse neighborhoods containing blacks, Puerto Ricans, whites, Asians, Christians, Muslims and many others. The only thing that united these people and created the base for hip-hop was poverty and urban living.

JMello

"Those of us who spent time in the agricultural sector and in the heartland, we understand how unfair the death penalty is - the death tax is."

"Si, I'm very concerned about the amount of acreage in cultivation for the growth of cocoa leaves."

"...it's about past 7 here, so we're actually in different timelines."

"I am mindful not only of preserving executive powers for myself, but my predecessors, as well. And that's why I made the decision."

"I'm about to name my brother the ambassador to Chad."

"They don't seem to be flocking in right now, but it is dove season in Texas. I'm a hunter and if I decide to shoot some dove, I'll shoot 'em and eat 'em."

--President-Select George W. Bush--

i'm feeling you on this one, possibly because i've got a much different view of things than y'all in amerikkka. Hip-hop, as far as it's worldwide impact goes (and muddafuck all of y'all that think no-one else but the US can live hip-hop culture) is primarily a class division. In countries like mine, where the race boundaries are not as defined as they are in America, hip-hop speaks to and is lived by all races- white, brown, black, asian, afrikan, polynesian, maori, whatever. The only people who seem to get it wrong are those who get into it because they see it merely as the 'cool' thing to do--- most people in the hip-hop culture in my city live it because it gives them a voice, it empowers them, it makes them feel like they are making a difference in the world, or at least in their neighbourhood. And these are all people who are living on the dole, on or near the minimum living allowance, or simply getting their soul sucked out by an employer so they can buy a new 12"....
Like anything, people jump on a bandwagon just cos it's going past and they wanna go somewhere. But this magical religion we have built called hip-hop has the ability to empower those who aren't in the positions of power... those of us who routinely get fucked over by landowners, lawmakers and employers....

hip-hop speaks to anyone who's ever had to sell drugs to pay rent.....
anyone who's gone a day without food to buy a record.....
anyone who spent their bill money to get into the club, just to see their favourite DJ...
anyone who spends friday night on the street kicking rhymes with their crew...
anyone who steals spraypaint cos they need to...
anyone who lives on the poverty line...
anyone who's had to ask the government for a food grant...
anyone who gets harassed by cops for no reason...

empowerment.
i like that word.
my man says, "hip-hop makes you feel BIG". Owning three houses and five cars could also make you feel big, but that's the realm of the fat cats on top. And, capitalism being a white-run game around the world (not exclusively, predominantly), this means that yes, hip-hop will have to be conscious about race, race struggles, etc, because as long as there are landlords who don't wanna rent their house to anyone who isn't white, as long as their are employers who are only after people from the right schools/families/neighbourhoods (read:race) then yes, hip-hop has to be conscious of race. Because there's fuck-all other ways to release that rage and frustration....

but that said, it will always appeal to different peoples on different levels. Some people only hear the beat: some melody: some people get off on hearing swear words...

i've completely forgotten where i'm going with this.

empowerment.
thats it, right there.
strength to those who need it.
payback to the downpressah.



CHEWWWWWWWWWWWWW mee, piTch!

__marching through the monotonous ignorance virus__

aotearoa hip-hop worldwide...
king kapisi
che fu
nuvonesia
p-money
te kupu
DLT
upper hutt posse
urban disturbance

__i poo paintings__
http://www.paulwalsh.co.nz

>But this magical
>religion we have built called
>hip-hop has the ability to
>empower those who aren't in
>the positions of power... those
>of us who routinely get
>fucked over by landowners, lawmakers
>and employers....
>
>hip-hop speaks to anyone who's ever
>had to sell drugs to
>pay rent.....
>anyone who's gone a day without
>food to buy a record.....
>anyone who spent their bill money
>to get into the club,
>just to see their favourite
>DJ...
>anyone who spends friday night on
>the street kicking rhymes with
>their crew...
>anyone who steals spraypaint cos they
>need to...
>anyone who lives on the poverty
>line...
>anyone who's had to ask the
>government for a food grant...
>anyone who gets harassed by cops
>for no reason...
>
>empowerment.
>i like that word.
>my man says, "hip-hop makes you
>feel BIG".

YES. damn, THAT was what I was tryin to say. Anyone who spent their bill money to see a DJ... funny you should say that, I just did it and my roommates are some kinda mad right now, but eff it. Fidel Castro calls hiphop the music of the socialist revolution. Thanks for the international perspective.

Peace
______________________________________
"if you tremble with indignation at every injustice then you are a comrade of mine."
- Che Guevara

Yo- I feel your stance- i think it's cool you look past the color barrier, but your need to categorize hip hop fans is still way too shallow. True hip hop fans don't need to be part of the struggle u described. A person can be a white suburban kid frustrated with the bullshit they see around them and for that person Kweli, or Dilated could be the answer. Hip hop is for those who feel it in their hearts, but it's definitely different for everyone. Hip hop can be a savior to people from nearly every walk of life. One (from the burbs)



"The task of philosophy is learning how to die." - Socrates

"Drink Bud Light beer with Buzz Lightyear."- RZA

"Socialism...let's hear that dirty word."-Jay Bulworth

the imperfect is our paradise - wallace stevens

I agree. I was just tryin to explain what hiphop means to me. I know hiphop heads from the burbs who love the music, and the range that this music has always amazes me. It's just one way of breakin it down - it's just one opinion.

Peace
______________________________________
"if you tremble with indignation at every injustice then you are a comrade of mine."
- Che Guevara

that's it, too.

"A person can be a white suburban kid frustrated with the bullshit they see around them and for that person Kweli, or Dilated could be the answer."

notice i said '_primarily_ a class division'? Not _just_, or _only_. It's just that anyone who supports hip-hop culture cannot HELP but be conscious of the struggles of daily life which are the main fuel for our collective fires..... it's not like other music.
It makes us talk about "us", for starters. I never met any of y'all, but we have this common dialogue. I don't care where you live, if you listen to hip-hop (and i mean listen in the truest sense- like, feeling it in your SOUL) then you cannot help but be aware of how life is in the ever-growing, worldwide, non-stop ghetto that is the lifestyle of most of us....

The ghetto monster doesn't care what colour you are, or where you're from, or what music you like... if you can't battle your way forward in the struggle, it'll eat you up and not think twice.

One love.... whoever you are, i've got your back.

I think this convo that has evolved is great: tohunga said some true stuff, the root tempered it with an intersting comment as well. The conclusion I've come to is that, even though its roots are in the ghettos of urban Black America, hip hop is a flexible apparatus that can be used in many ways to express and make art. Now, when someone uses that apparatus to talk about Black pride, I'm gonna relate more than the next man. When someone uses it to talk about poverty, the next man is gonna relate more than me. Yet both of us can relate to both, just on different levels. This is a simple summary of what I'm thinking. If anyone wants to add more thoughts (on this or on the original talk), be my guest.

By the way, tohunga, after reading your 1st reply, just wanted to let you know I'm Canadian. Other non-Americans know why I feel the need to distinguish!

The
>conclusion I've come to is
>that, even though its roots
>are in the ghettos of
>urban Black America, hip hop
>is a flexible apparatus that
>can be used in many
>ways to express and make
>art.

people that 'use' hip hop for other purposes tend to discredit the origins

i've seen plenty of suburban white kids that i used to go to hs with appropriate certian aspects and compltely remove them from the origin, and turn around and claim it for their own

-------- B EZ ------------

IM and ICQ name: reefdogg1 (number one at the end)

lil kids call me smokeymon ....

>people that 'use' hip hop for
>other purposes tend to discredit
>the origins
>
that's the danger. it's a free world but i don't advocate people trying to contort or ignore history. we all have claim to hip-hop regardless of our economic or social backgrounds but respect the architect(c)Bahamadia.

SIGNATURE STARTS YONDER
effasig4now...
**************************
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(THE HICE IS URS)
**************************
The emoticon as 'O' symbol is a registered trademark of dafriquan.
No biting without written permission.
*************************

RIP JDILLA
THE ILLEST THAT EVER DID IT

>anyone who's gone a day without
>food to buy a record.....

That's me, MANY times. And soon to be many more.

"How the hell you was Pookie?"
"I was poor white trash Pookie."

--
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I agree with you that socioeconomic status is probably a better indicator than race.

As an aside, I have a pet peeve about the term "White Trash". It implies that "trash" in its natural state is usually a color other than white. It irks me almost as much as the n-word, yet it seems to still be generally PC to use the term.
___________________________________________________________

"It's just a song." (c)Goodie Mob

"Once you've won the rat race, will you still be a rat?" (c) Me

"Don't go losing your today hiding your soul in your solitude." (c) Zap Mama

"Life's a b***h, then you die; but for now, Life, close your eyes and feel this d**k." - Jay-Z

"I think we may be integrating into a burning house...We'll have to become the firemen." - Martin Luther King, Jr. (speaking to Harry Belafonte)

wow- good point there.

My name says it all. Dub Spt is a shortened form of my full hip hop name, Whiteboy Spits the Shit that Never Quits. Time for me to talk. Since I was eleven hip hop has been my life. I eat it, i sleep it, i breath it. I was never poor poor, but im certainly not suburbs, far from it. Ever since I've liked hip hop I've been called white trash. In battles, Im always called trailer park trash. Ive never lived in a trailer park, but so what if i had? To me, hip hop is not always about empowerment, and it is never about race. hip hop is about making me feel good and finding something Im good at. I will never have alot of underground stuff( i Live in Jacksonville), but i will never lose the love. love is what it's about. My people are misrepresented in hip hop, but so are blacks. No one can be fully represented we can only be us, and fuck what anybody else says. They call me The Shadow cause people ignore me because of how I look. I know what I am, so to hell with naysayers.

Irie,
Dub Spt
spitting truth since forever

- Dub

I give rappers the biz for being m-izza-a-archaic.

Personally, I think we've hit a time when the barriers of the point of origin start falling ... it's just not a new art anymore; the perception of it being a "black" thing or an "urban" thing or a "ghetto" thing come away naturally with age, and it becomes simply an "expression" thing. We're starting to see MCs with more bite than most out of Compton or Philly (no disrespect intended towards the city of the west or my own home town, of course) coming out of the practically-pure-white suburbs of Minnesota ... not to mention more hispanics, more asians, more native americans (I caught this great hip hop/roots reggae fusion band not too long ago that was entirely cherokee, I believe, but, that's far more off topic yet than the whole rest of this little rant of mine).

My whole original intent, really, was just to say: thank god you're doing what you're doing, regardless of what those with either more shallow or more possessive boundaries may say to you ... because really, you're doing what you love, and there's little in this world as perfect as an artist making public their passion.

Peace~
Michelle




It's like this: by being black ink, on my right hand, raised to touch and smile.

>I agree with you that socioeconomic
>status is probably a better
>indicator than race.
>
>As an aside, I have a
>pet peeve about the term
>"White Trash". It implies
>that "trash" in its natural
>state is usually a color
>other than white. It
>irks me almost as much
>as the n-word, yet it
>seems to still be generally
>PC to use the term.

So just start using black trash...I do


JMello

"Those of us who spent time in the agricultural sector and in the heartland, we understand how unfair the death penalty is - the death tax is."

"Si, I'm very concerned about the amount of acreage in cultivation for the growth of cocoa leaves."

"...it's about past 7 here, so we're actually in different timelines."

"I am mindful not only of preserving executive powers for myself, but my predecessors, as well. And that's why I made the decision."

"I'm about to name my brother the ambassador to Chad."

"They don't seem to be flocking in right now, but it is dove season in Texas. I'm a hunter and if I decide to shoot some dove, I'll shoot 'em and eat 'em."

--President-Select George W. Bush--

i remember my mom using the term "poor white trash" a lot when i was a child, and one day i made a comment about "poor black trash" - thinking it was funny/following her lead - and she slapped me.

anyway, jerry springer commented in some random interview years ago that the people on his show represent the amercia "affluent white america" does not want anyone to know exists. race is the #1 divide in this country at most because of slavery, at least because there is more than one race... in countries like china they piddle over class and politics (or in the middle east where religion divides) because everyone basically looks the same. it seems even the poorest, dumbest white person will think they are better than the most intelligent, affluent, attractive black person just because he/she has that skin. slavery here would not have "worked" otherwise... without going into the sexual dynamics of the divide, lower class white people need to look down on someone so the upper white class say, "here are the black people, look down on them. just don't come asking us for money..."

what hip hop does, well it brings in those class factors, deals with conditions of living that cross the racial divide. so the projects = the trailer parks, and so on.

i think the biggest general divide amongst all peoples is education. which i guess could go along with class...


______

"you came and opened me, now there's so much more i see"
stevie wonder verse / that's what friends are for

"...sell crazy somewhere else, lady. we're all stocked up here."
jack nicholson line / as good as it gets

"it took a while to get me here and i'm gonna take my time"
gwen stefani / eve's -let me blow ya mind-

i'm feeling your remarks on the treatment of and terms used to denounce poorer whites, as james marshall told cuba gooding jr. in gladiator (old skool boxing movie) poverty isn't just a black disease. sometimes us as black folk may feel that being black means the world owes us an apology, but i have friends of all nationalities that would stand up against oppression just as quickly as a person of color. just as "eracism" has no set skin color, the "epidemic" of poverty has no preference, only socio-economic "body count".

"viagra? that's like when you take the venom out of a snake...you get a...well...a belt!" -Quagmire

It aint the color of your skin,
It aint your religion,
It's what's within
that makes you you and it makes him him.

By---->BRIONE

Peace

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http://Twitter.com/KNOWLEGEisKING

Notorious BIG and Jay-Z - The Definition Of It - Album Produced By KNOWLEGE
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I think if you truly identify with hiphop, then its probably in you. I do think hiphop is black music, however, like all US black music that has come out, there have always been our paler brethren accepting it as their own, whether for better or for worse. And for those who want to set up a hierarchy of oppression...ie...class trumps race...it's never a good idea, because things just dont quite work that way.

It just BES that way sometimes.

Yabbadabbadoozilla! (c) Bootzilla
http://www.funkknots.com
http://www.cartoonista.com
http://www.pocho.com

"Men lied about that ---
Some of them cried about that ---
Some of them died about that ---
But everything fightin' about a spoonful
That spoon, that spoon, that ---
It could be a spoonful of water
Saved me from the desert sand
But one spoon of them forty-five
Saved you from another man" -Howling Wolf

"You might as well pay attention/ you can't afford free speech" -George Clinton

"People need to stop saying that there is one way to be--and then the issue will disappear." Ntozake Shange-interview in _Mother_ _Jones_

>And for those
>who want to set up
>a hierarchy of oppression...ie...class trumps
>race...it's never a good idea,
>because things just dont quite
>work that way.

Hierarchy of oppression? I don't remember trying to tell everyone that class trumps race all the time everywhere. Common consensus seems to be that everyone has a claim to hiphop, just in different ways, and I was simply tryin to put forth how I most identify with hiphop - what it says to me most of the time. I can see the other sides, but for me they just don't speak as loud.

Peace
______________________________________
"When I gave food to the poor, people called me a saint. But when I asked why the poor were hungry, people called me a communist."
- Don Helder Camara

"I think if you truly identify with hiphop, then its probably in you. I do think hiphop is black music, however, like all US black music that has come out, there have always been our paler brethren accepting it as their own, whether for better or for worse. And for those who want to set up a hierarchy of oppression...ie...class trumps race...it's never a good idea, because things just dont quite work that way."


Maybe not in the US- your society is way too strict in the black/white divisions, from what i can tell- but for the majority of the rest of the world, there is, more often than not, unity in oppression AS WELL AS race.

And of course hiphop is a creation of black america. Nobody can deny that. But if you have given something this powerful to the world, ya gotta understand that the rest of the world wants to create their interpretations, for themselves, through (and about) their own society and culture. And if the culture they are living in is more racially tolerant than American culture, then race struggles won't have so much emphasis in their artistic expression for the simple fact that their race- them being who they are- doesn't have so much emphasis in their everyday life.

Good points, though. I was reading "Crosstown traffic", a biography of Hendrix, last night. The author (forget his name) raised some thought-provoking points about the "borrowing" of black music, from the blues to rock'n'roll. Being a Polish boy raised amongst Maori and fed on reggae and hip-hop since i was little (the first record I bought was the 'Raising Hell' 7") I find myself throwing these concepts around in my head...

I'm sure that if my country actually had, like America has, a "black part of town", or a history of slavery as opposed to a (mostly) clean history of unity and co-operation between different races, or a deeply-ingrained class structure based primarily on race, then these are questions that I would have to think long and hard about, to work out where I stand.
As it is, though, the culture I live in doesn't require me to act a certain way or like a certain type of music because of who I am, and I am not confronted for being a "white boy who thinks he's black" just because I like hip-hop... I'm just another person.

In Aotearoa, we can call everyone 'bro' or 'sis'.

(cue Nelson from the Simpsons: HA-ha)

In the words of Chris Rock " I can't be worried about them ".


You are on the right path to a hot bottom. Shrek

Shit happens