[]okay a couple of questions:

1) Is all music a product of one culture or another

if yes then continue:
2) Does this mean that listeners of music are broadly sweeped into two categories; a) practioners of the culture and b) people who operate outside it and are only enjoying the tangible benefits of the culture

3) When we say a music has died are we refering more to the culture being dead? and is it possible to create music after its founding culture is no more


oh and disco if you dont respond to this post i'm calling you out

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>1) Is all music a product
>of one culture or another

Some cases are easier to define than others.
Hip Hop is recent. We know it came from american black folks, caribbean black folks, and caribbean latino folks. Hip Hop is a product of all of those cultures.

>if yes then continue:
>2) Does this mean that listeners
>of music are broadly sweeped
>into two categories; a) practioners
>of the culture and b)
>people who operate outside it
>and are only enjoying the
>tangible benefits of the culture

Why yes. Although a less common form of this argument is, hip hop separated into 3 categories, artists, folks who participate in the artists culture, and those outside of said culture who appreciate the art.

>3) When we say a music
>has died are we refering
>more to the culture being
>dead? and is it possible
>to create music after its
>founding culture is no more

Sort of..When we say Jazz died, we mean that unlike Gospel, black folks my age have no real experience with it, and the vast majority have no interest in pursuing it. Thus that same Afrikan American perspective that pervaded much of jazz when we were involved on a large scale, is gone. Indeed, jazz on larger level doesn't really appeal to young folks. Rock and Roll on the other hand seems to have found a nice home with white teenagers though.

The same can't be said for Gospel. Subtract Kurt Franklin n'nem, you've still got the same stuff our parents listened to, as well as their parents, all the way back to Jamestown. Folks my age are still in choirs, some want to go on and perform for the church. Many an R&B singer has come out of that musical culture.

one
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

>
>>1) Is all music a product
>>of one culture or another
>
>Some cases are easier to define
>than others.
>Hip Hop is recent. We
>know it came from american
>black folks, caribbean black folks,
>and caribbean latino folks.
> Hip Hop is a
>product of all of those
>cultures.

So to which culture do the various rock hybrids and variations fall into, do they each have their own or does it get lumped into the monolithic white culture?

>
>>if yes then continue:
>>2) Does this mean that listeners
>>of music are broadly sweeped
>>into two categories; a) practioners
>>of the culture and b)
>>people who operate outside it
>>and are only enjoying the
>>tangible benefits of the culture
>
>Why yes. Although a less
>common form of this argument
>is, hip hop separated into
>3 categories, artists, folks who
>participate in the artists culture,
>and those outside of said
>culture who appreciate the art.
>

how does the appreciation of the music change as you move from group to group?
ie is one saying how does this music affect my culture or reflect it, while the other stops at just enjoyment.

>>3) When we say a music
>>has died are we refering
>>more to the culture being
>>dead? and is it possible
>>to create music after its
>>founding culture is no more
>
>Sort of..When we say Jazz died,
>we mean that unlike Gospel,
>black folks my age have
>no real experience with it,
>and the vast majority have
>no interest in pursuing it.
> Thus that same Afrikan
>American perspective that pervaded much
>of jazz when we were
>involved on a large scale,
>is gone. Indeed, jazz
>on larger level doesn't really
>appeal to young folks.
>Rock and Roll on the
>other hand seems to have
>found a nice home with
>white teenagers though.
>
But rock has certainly changed its sound over the last 40 years, is that due to changes in culture or evolution of the music?

>The same can't be said for
>Gospel. Subtract Kurt Franklin
>n'nem, you've still got the
>same stuff our parents listened
>to, as well as their
>parents, all the way back
>to Jamestown. Folks
>my age are still in
>choirs, some want to go
>on and perform for the
>church. Many an R&B
>singer has come out of
>that musical culture.
>

is gospel exempt b/c it was never really popular music and by that i mean got widespread play in secular venues and on radio. In short, b/c it never had a golden age?

or because the culture hasnt changed at all?




[]

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>>Some cases are easier to define
>>than others.

>So to which culture do the
>various rock hybrids and variations
>fall into,

Like I said, some are easier to define than others.

Emo is definitely white folks doing they thing. The rock and roll is so far removed from what Chuck and Little Richard were doing it's not even funny.

It gets funny when you talk about black bands that play indy/grunge/emo/punk.

>how does the appreciation of the
>music change as you move
>from group to group?

Intensity, I'm not sure of. Cause i've met lots of cats who love my favorite mc's way more than me, and have no clue about what they're saying.

But knowledge of the context in which the music is made has a profound effect on understanding the music. It's hard to describe why "Pimp tha Pen" is such a good song to folks who don't live in Texas. If appreciating music were merely a logical exercise, the Record business would be so much different.

- environment affects how you listen to music.
Your culture, what your parents listen to, what you listened to as a kid when you did not have a choice, what your other family listened to, what was popular in your neighborhood, ...All affects what you think of music now. You might not think it does, but it does.

At Dj Krush, I saw this sister rocking the raver gear and alladat. But when it came time to dance, she did this thing that I've seen my mother, sorority sistas, broads the club, sistas at rock shows...I don't know how to explain it, but it's often hard to deny where you come from.

- enviroment affects how you make music - go with or against the grain.

Take the K-Otix for instance. They consciously choose not to speak on things that other Houston mc's like the Geto Boys are known for. Time and time again, I hear from them, and other Texas mc's who grew up UGK, the Geto Boys, Tribe, Heavy D, et cetera, distancing themselves from what folks have characterized the south as.

Compare that to Lil O, who's father is a Nigerian Doctor. His lexus in his first video was a gift from pops. Sugarland, Clemens/Dulles HS ain't that hard. He went with the grain.

>ie is one saying how does
>this music affect my culture
>or reflect it, while the
>other stops at just enjoyment.

The cat in the culture generally just enjoys it.

The cat outside of the culture looks to see how the music affects his culture, as well as its own.

>But rock has certainly changed its
>sound over the last 40
>years, is that due to
>changes in culture or evolution
>of the music?

I'm not sure if they are easily taken apart.

The artist base has changed color, and thus others have brought different perspectives. In Rock it seems that white folks(artists and audience) were interested in what black folks were doing, but Black folks (mainly the audience) didn't care what white folks were doing. (although if you've got examples holla at me)

I think Rock and Roll has primarily changed because white artists and audiences changed the expectations. And then dissatisfied white cats pushed the music even further. And the music itself will evolve for all sorts of other reasons.

>is gospel exempt b/c it was
>never really popular music and
>by that i mean got
>widespread play in secular venues
>and on radio.

>or because the culture hasnt changed
>at all?

The black church is a powerful force. I've read lots of interviews of soul singers that left the church for secular venues. Aretha comes to mind for one. But it was a hard thing to do.

And for some reason, talking about God in any form turns people off. (which makes me wonder why Creed and POD are so popular..could it be that they just talk about the principles and do everything but name names?)

One,
k.orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

>The cat in the culture generally
>just enjoys it.
>
>The cat outside of the culture
>looks to see how the
>music affects his culture, as
>well as its own.
>

so when we talk history of music, do we get more useful knowledge from the observer or the participant?

>>But rock has certainly changed its
>>sound over the last 40
>>years, is that due to
>>changes in culture or evolution
>>of the music?
>
>I'm not sure if they are
>easily taken apart.
>
>The artist base has changed color,
>and thus others have brought
>different perspectives. In Rock
>it seems that white folks(artists
>and audience) were interested in
>what black folks were doing,
>but Black folks (mainly the
>audience) didn't care what white
>folks were doing. (although if
>you've got examples holla at
>me)
>
>I think Rock and Roll has
>primarily changed because white artists
>and audiences changed the expectations.
> And then dissatisfied white
>cats pushed the music even
>further. And the music
>itself will evolve for all
>sorts of other reasons.
>

i think you can also look at it like this:
-white musicians influenced by black music were reaching a white audience, so as the generations of music increased, the intial influence was lessened and people started working on ideas and concepts created by the later generations.

until it got to the point where those ideas branched off into very different variations w/ new sub-cultures




[]

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>so when we talk history of
>music, do we get more
>useful knowledge from the observer
>or the participant?

Utility?

2 kids that love Ghost face. One from Chicago, One from NY. Who's gonna be able to tell you more about Ghost is saying?

2 kids that love Aesoprock, one from Manhattan, the other from Manitoba.

Who's gonna tell you more about what Aesop is saying? I can't call it, but the manhattan kid gets an edge.

A lot of utility will stem from the type of music and the folks involved.

>until it got to the point
>where those ideas branched off
>into very different variations w/
>new sub-cultures

I'll agree with that.

one
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

>And for some reason, talking about
>God in any form turns
>people off. (which makes
>me wonder why Creed and
>POD are so popular..could it
>be that they just talk
>about the principles and do
>everything but name names?)


Indeed...my family is BIG into gospel music. they consider the Winans to be great artists with unlimited talent. But when it came to their more mainstream/secular hits ("It's OK", "Love Has No Color", "It'll Be All Over In The Morning"), they just about never specifically mention God or Jesus Christ.

It went down like this in the Harris household (referring to "It'll Be All Over In The Morning"-

AUNT RUBY: "I like the song, but it ain't gospel."

ME: "Why not?"

AUNT RUBY: "'Cause the never tell you *who* is gonna make it all right."

Peace,

*** MARBLES ***

>1) Is all music a product of one culture or another

Similar to a question I recently asked. I think the answer is "yes". But is it the cultural product of the artists or the listeners? When I posted about this, I was specifically thinking of rock music as it stands today.

Peace,

*** MARBLES ***

>
>>1) Is all music a product of one culture or another
>
> Similar to
>a question I recently asked.
> I think the answer
>is "yes". But is
>it the cultural product of
>the artists or the listeners?
> When I posted about
>this, I was specifically thinking
>of rock music as it
>stands today.

expand on that, cuz im not sure i see where you are going. interesting though
[]

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I guess I was asking whether a particular genre of music is defined by the artists that create or perform the music or by the listeners. I was thinking of rock, because in the recent issue of Vibe (don't ask), Lenny Kravitz was scolding someone for referring to him as the black rock guy. He gave him the speech that rock was created by blacks, etc.

My thoughts are that rock & roll hasn't been black for a long time, whether it's defined by the listeners or the artists. I don't mean to imply that NO black folks are artists or fans, but the large majority are not. yet, rock music was created by black folks.

So how do we define rock? Someone else (forget who, my apologies) suggested that you define musical genres by the instruments. I thought that was an interesting take also.

Peace,

*** MARBLES ***

Some music is targeted at certain cultures w/o being parts of it.

2 examples:

Britney Spears - music made by older men in Sweden, targeted at (US) teen culture.

Average White Band - made music associated w/Black (American) culture, but they weren't part of it.

Pick a rapper. Music targeted at "the streets"...how many of them are from there?

fuck you.

>Some music is targeted at certain
>cultures w/o being parts of
>it.
>
>2 examples:
>
>Britney Spears - music made by
>older men in Sweden, targeted
>at (US) teen culture.
>

well not to start another britany debate but its her face on the album cover and its her voice, so isnt that operating within us teen culture?

>Average White Band - made music
>associated w/Black (American) culture, but
>they weren't part of it.
>

interesting

but whose fault is it? the band's or the fans?

i mean they played as close as you can get to authentic music it was just that the fans of the original music didnt accept them into their culture.

(not specifcally with AWB, but its the same arguement for all the white bands stole the blues and turned it into rock agruments)

>Pick a rapper. Music targeted
>at "the streets"...how many of
>them are from there?

but dont they understand street culture, if they didnt how could their music be accepted there?

[]

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>>Some music is targeted at certain
>>cultures w/o being parts of
>>it.
>>
>>2 examples:
>>
>>Britney Spears - music made by
>>older men in Sweden, targeted
>>at (US) teen culture.
>>
>
>well not to start another britany
>debate but its her face
>on the album cover and
>its her voice, so isnt
>that operating within us teen
>culture?

We're talking about the music and where it comes from, right? Her music, her songs...the whole thing came from outside the culture being targeted.

Want genuine teen music? Check for the Beastie's 1st album.

>>Average White Band - made music
>>associated w/Black (American) culture, but
>>they weren't part of it.
>>
>
>interesting
>
>but whose fault is it? the
>band's or the fans?

Umm...the band's. Or their parents. Or whatever.

I mean, as far as I know they weren't part of Black culture, but they made "Black music". I could be wrong...I'm assuming they weren't part of the culture cuz they weren't Black.

>i mean they played as close
>as you can get to
>authentic music it was just
>that the fans of the
>original music didnt accept them
>into their culture.

It takes more than making music to be accepted into a culture. I could make a bomb assed piece of Bhangra...but I'm not going to be accepted as an Indian b/c of it. You know?

>but dont they understand street culture,
>if they didnt how could
>their music be accepted there?

We're talking about the music coming FROM the culture, right?

fuck you.

>We're talking about the music and
>where it comes from, right?
> Her music, her songs...the
>whole thing came from outside
>the culture being targeted.
>

But Britany is the one delivering the music, she is the vehicle. If the culture itself doesnt care where the music came from, only that its being presented to them from one of their own, then i dont think you can say that she is outside of teen culture.

>>but dont they understand street culture,
>>if they didnt how could
>>their music be accepted there?
>
>We're talking about the music coming
>FROM the culture, right?

again, this music is not being made in a vacuum. regardless of whether or not the artists religously adhere to their culture, its still being made for a certain group of people. Its not just being put out there simply because the artist can put it out there. so it still has ties to the culture, and is influenced by the cultures values.


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influences the culture's values.

But yeah, I see what you're saying. Though I don't feel that's the same as the music coming from the culture.

fuck you.

>but dont they understand street culture,
>if they didnt how could
>their music be accepted there?
>

marketing...

in both cases...marketing is so much different today.

where the AWB wasn't getting heard at the apollo theater..i'd bet you NSYNC could get up there and do "gone" (have they already?)

the line between music coming from culture, and music created for a culture (sowhat's examples) is quite blurred with the state of radio/tv/magazines/ etc...

peace
Kyle


Much love,
Kyle



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much love,
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C'mon how you gonna diss the ?uestion like that, of course he wasn't a Fat Boy. Now previous to Roots life, Quest did appear on television. He played Shirley on "What's Happenin?" - fxsnyc 6/19/01

fuck you.

>[]okay a couple of questions:
>
>1) Is all music a product
>of one culture or another
>
sure.

>
>if yes then continue:
>2) Does this mean that listeners
>of music are broadly sweeped
>into two categories; a) practioners
>of the culture and b)
>people who operate outside it
>and are only enjoying the
>tangible benefits of the culture

You know what makes things messed up now is that culture is "marketed" as it wasn't in the past. Music was a leader in forming culture before. Now it's just a by-product of mass marketing and ultra-corporate control of entertainment. Before guys could come out with 2 or 3 albums a year. Tour all over the place. If it was good, if people felt it, they were successful. Now there are other factors tied to this that is hindering what music can do for culture. I was watching Rap City on Thanksgiving with my moms, and she was like "why are all the videos the same?" I told her they have to be like this to get on t.v. now? Women, jewelry, drank, cars, etc. When I was younger artists of a more conscious type could get videos played too. There is ZERO diversity in todays mainstream and I think that it's having a negitive influence on our culture and our young people.

p


DOWN WITH THE IDIOT STORE AND EVERYONE WHO SHOPS THERE. . .
"sont les mots qui vont tres bien ensemble, tres bien ensemble"--the beatles, michelle

Sont des mots qui vont tres bien ensemble, tres bien ensemble.--the beatles, michelle

interesting topic. I think that while music is a by product of culture, it can also be said that music can create its own subculture. For example, before DnB was born there were no such things as Junglists. Same thing with House music and Houseboys/girls.
Howessenever, Some subcultures have created forms of music that have outlasted the culture that created them, i.e "true B-boys", Punks, Mods (well except for Paul Weller and Liam Gallagher).

So to answer your question, uhh yes. and no.

_____________________________
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______________



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just a few responses:

"Average White Band: Made music associated with Black Culture, but they weren't part of it"....

it gets tricky when you start trying to pigeon-hole people's races with their respective cultures .... they are not synonymous, as i'm sure anyone on this board who listens to a music genre outside of their "prescribed cultural norms" will tell you ..... just for example, you'd be hard pressed by me to prove that Southern culture, is not on the by and large whole, Black culture .... black or white ...


(paraphrasing) Rock was originally black music, it's just not anymore


Tell that to Vernon Reid, Larry Graham, Prince, Mos Def, the members of Bad Brains, so on and so forth ....


as for music being marketed today, and wasn't in the past:

RACE RECORDS....

ALAN LOMAX recordings ... (re: the appropriation of folk music for the greater white society)


it ALWAYS been about marketing ....

***********
http://mal-contented.livejournal.com
http://www.last.fm/listen/user/MaliceGrant/personal

"Before guys could come out with 2 or 3 albums a year. Tour all over the place. If it was good, if people felt it, they were successful."


Tell that to Bessie Smith and all the original jazz musicians and .....

***********
http://mal-contented.livejournal.com
http://www.last.fm/listen/user/MaliceGrant/personal

>it gets tricky when you start
>trying to pigeon-hole people's races
>with their respective cultures ....
>they are not synonymous, as
>i'm sure anyone on this
>board who listens to a
>music genre outside of their
>"prescribed cultural norms" will tell
>you .....

What?

just for example,
>you'd be hard pressed by
>me to prove that Southern
>culture, is not on the
>by and large whole, Black
>culture .... black or white
>...

Oh my God.

There's an overriding Southern culture, but it doesn't equal Black culture.

fuck you.

where you from?

as for the first part, there's a lot of people equating someone's "culture" with someone's "race", implying that they are one and the same, go hand in hand, etc ... that's not so.
to conflate the two is a gross mistake ...

as for the second, we can debate that 'til the cows come home ...

***********
http://mal-contented.livejournal.com
http://www.last.fm/listen/user/MaliceGrant/personal

>as for the first part, there's
>a lot of people equating
>someone's "culture" with someone's "race",
>implying that they are one
>and the same, go hand
>in hand, etc ... that's
>not so.
>to conflate the two is a
>gross mistake ...

I know. And I admit I don't know enough about AWB to say for sure, so I'm working off assumption.

>as for the second, we can
>debate that 'til the cows
>come home ...

If you say so. But I already know I'm right, so I wouldn't debate w/you.

___________

"Can I sing to you while you bring yourself to joy?"

fuck you.

>>as for the second, we can
>>debate that 'til the cows
>>come home ...
>
>If you say so. But
>I already know I'm right,
>so I wouldn't debate w/you.


I would like to hear your argument here.

-------------------------
::bounce'n off yo'radar::
Blaktroniks - Testing
Colonel Red - Soul Believer
Til Tuesday - Voices Carry
Prickly Pear/Jinesis - Ppl
Kashif - The Mood
Blk Bobby - The Grn Lite
Zo/Tigallo - Human

aGainst.The.gRain.radiO
fridays.10a-

fuck you.

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.

-------------------------
::bounce'n off yo'radar::
Blaktroniks - Testing
Colonel Red - Soul Believer
Til Tuesday - Voices Carry
Prickly Pear/Jinesis - Ppl
Kashif - The Mood
Blk Bobby - The Grn Lite
Zo/Tigallo - Human

aGainst.The.gRain.radiO
fridays.10a-

So solid I won't even go into it.

I know what I know cuz I've seen it. And if you haven't seen it, you won't know and unless I could physically show it to you, I'm wasting my time trying to convince you.

fuck you.

Okay, players, I gotta fess up from the start that I do have a bias in this.

I'm a white MC, grew up in slums in New England (where the poor are grouped by class, not race) and have never really seen that music follows racial boundaries...until the marketing takes over.

Rap, and later Hip Hop, was part of the music I grew up with. My parents were young music fans, and I heard P-Funk, Kurtis Blow and the Treacherous Three at the same time as I was hearing U-Roy, the Bad Brains, Dead Kennedys, and the Ramones. I know black punk rockers and industrial fans just like I know white and Asian and Latino B-boys. Take a look at the photos of the original B-Boys and graf kings (like Freedom, Dondi, StayHigh149) and you will see a group as racially diverse as the 7 Train at rush hour.

From what I can recall from the singles and acts I followed in my childhood, it wasn't really til the late 80s that rap (by that point "hip hop") became Nationalistic as a whole. This did the labels a HUGE favor, because (a) Afrocentric music will sell to young Black listeners and (b) Afrocentric music will ALWAYS sell to young White listeners who want to piss off their parents. The young and poor see in Black culture a reflection of the powerlessness they feel at the time. I'm not excusing the mooks who call each other's white asses "nigga," I'm just saying that I can see what the appeal is. I never fell into that, though...probably because it wasn't some cinema fnatasy to me, it was my neighborhood, my friends.

My take is that hip hop is a YOUTH music by now, not a RACIAL music. Kids of all colors listen to it, love it, live it, and people in their 40s of all colors just don't get it (white parents run to their Hall and Oates records, black ones to their Teddy Pendergrass). I don't like Eminem all that much, but I gotta admit that the man has skills as a rhyme-writer, and from all I can tell he's opened a lot of doors (look at all the white cats doing legitimate hip hop now, and ask yourself if there would have been magazine reviews for Aesop Rock, let alone Bubba Sparks). And Eminem gets props in the black music fan community, the same way that Average White Band, KC and the Sunshine Band, Artie Shaw, or Elvis Presley did.

All of those predominantly white acts made music which didn't EXPLOIT another culture so much as CELEBRATE it, and which was played BACK to that culture as a show of respect. Which is a big difference between Eminem or Aesop Rock and, say, the Insane Clown Posse's "pimp" posturing and outdated dickswinging lingo.

You want to talk about white musicians with no ties to the Black culture they were borrowing, leave Presley alone, and focus your crosshairs on the Rolling Stones, a bunch of rich Brits whose closest connection to black culture was buying Robert Johnson records as imports.


As for rock: Rock and roll was innovated by Chuck Berry, Lightnin' Hopkins, etc. But "Rock" music has gone in all sorts of directions since, many of which (the Who, Velvet Underground, Sonic Youth, post-punk) have little to do with 12-bar blues convention. By now, a band that follows the Blues scales is considered "revivalist"...as in, they are part (not all) of what is keeping that form of music from disappearing into obscurity.

More soon, hope I've made a point or two.

Peace and Respect.

------
"Saying rap is not work is ludicrous...whoever said it must be new to this..."

www.soundclick.com/oldscratch

Look man, if you ever ever ever defend your right to make hip-hop again (or even appear to mount a defense), I'll slap you myself.

Fuck that shit. Just make the music. If you're good no one who matters will care where you came from or what you look like.

fuck you.

:7

much love,
Kyle

Detroit..Let's GO!!! May 12th Dilla Walk for Lupus...Belle Isle...

http://walk.lupusresearch.org/goto/blackeyedskeez

Even a Dollar can HELP..


http://www.myspace.com/jedikyle
http://www.detroitderbygirls.com/

>I know black punk rockers and industrial fans just like I know
>white and Asian and Latino B-boys. Take a look
>at the photos of the original B-Boys and graf kings
>(like Freedom, Dondi, StayHigh149) and you will see a group
>as racially diverse as the 7 Train at rush hour.

Yes, there exceptions to every rule and several of them at that. But, going back to the days of the "original b-boys & graf kings", take a look at who was in the parks partying to hip-hop, who was at the parties, who was trading mix-tapes and spreading them to other cities. Bet you a dollar to a donut that
90%+ were black or latino.

>My take is that hip hop is a YOUTH music by now, not a RACIAL >music. Kids of all colors listen to it, love it, live it, and >people in their 40s of all colors just don't get it

The above is somewhat true, but again I go to my food analogy. No matter who is making it or eating it or listening to it, that doesn't erase the history or path taken for that music/food/cultural aspect to get where it is. Everyone in the world could be eating lasagna, but it's still of Italian origin. I never want hip-hop, soul, blues or gospel music to be considered anything other than black music. That doesn't mean that everyone can't participate and enjoy it, either

>the same way that Average
>White Band, KC and the
>Sunshine Band, Artie Shaw, or
>Elvis Presley did.

I don't know if black folks were ever giving Elvis props. I'm too young to know but I have never heard any older folks shower him with praise.

>You want to talk about white
>musicians with no ties to
>the Black culture they were
>borrowing, leave Presley alone, and
>focus your crosshairs on the
>Rolling Stones, a bunch of
>rich Brits whose closest connection
>to black culture was buying
>Robert Johnson records as imports.

I give the Beatles & Stones credit...they have *ALWAYS* said that they were trying to imitate what black artists were doing. I have heard them endlessly state that black music was a major inspiration to them. How different is what they did from what kids in Denmark or France are doing today?


Peace,

*** MARBLES ***

SoWhat:

Not trying to defend my making the music I make and love. I don't think it needs to be defended, and was trying to convey that. But go ahead and slap me if it looks like I'm just being self-deprecating, awright?

Marbles:

Elvis Presley was charting on the "Black" charts and playing in the Black crowds; fans and DJs were calling him "the Hillbilly Cat" which is sorta the 50s equivalent of going by "White Dogg"... before he went to Hollywood and the Army and started to suck like a hooker in Bridgeport, CT. By that point, however, the label was pushing him more as a teenybopper thing ala Pat (motherfucker) Boone, and his sound moved further from the music of his hometown and more into cheesedick ballads and such.

I'm not a big fan of his mucis, especially when he whitened it up. But again, I give more props to him covering "Mystery Train" or "Milkcow Blues" than I do to Mick Jagger singing in a Southern Black patois about how some "Brown Sugar" girl tastes "just like a Black girl should"...

------
"Saying rap is not work is ludicrous...whoever said it must be new to this..."

www.soundclick.com/oldscratch

>1) Is all music a product
>of one culture or another

Yes.

>2) Does this mean that listeners
>of music are broadly sweeped
>into two categories; a) practioners
>of the culture and b)
>people who operate outside it
>and are only enjoying the
>tangible benefits of the culture

Yes that's what happens. But in reality, it's common for people within a certain culture to reject their own culture and adopt another one.

>3) When we say a music
>has died are we refering
>more to the culture being
>dead? and is it possible
>to create music after its
>founding culture is no more

Music/culture does not die until there are no more practioners or audience to appreciate the art/practice. Our perception of "death" is alway correllated with mainstream popularity, which in wrong. I can't think of any form of music/culture that has truely "died". I also think people tend to mistake growth with death.

Peace

Wendell

Peace

Wendell

amen

***********
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[]"Music/culture does not die until there are no more practioners or audience to appreciate the art/practice. Our perception of "death" is alway correllated with mainstream popularity, which in wrong. I can't think of any form of music/culture that has truely "died". I also think people tend to mistake growth with death."

i think people are too quick to use the term dead but i do think its possible.


i mean is doo wop still alive and kicking?

it just depends on what has happened to the culture the music was created in.

Jazz contrary to popular belief is not dead, but there is still a jazz culture, at least in NYC. However the culture has changed to fit the music or maybe its the other way around. Anyway jazz still lives b/c it still has that culture.

and its in other things too, pyschadelic rock and roll is no more, ditto to true soul music.

the social groups that supported this music has been long gone*.



*by soul culture being gone i'm refering to the civil rights movement. R&B is not dead b/c it has evolved with black culture. BUt alot of its derivtives along the way are gone. THere influence is still felt, but they are gone none the less.

Giving You True Lesson Moderation Since'03
******

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>i mean is doo wop still
>alive and kicking?

Ask all the boy bands. It evolved, but the fundamentals are the same. Boys to Men and all the groups that followed them use whole harmony/spacing/tones that was originated by doo wop. My moms went to a show not long ago that had a lot of the doo wop artist of the 50's performing. It's not dead.

>Jazz contrary to popular belief is
>not dead, but there is
>still a jazz culture, at
>least in NYC. However the
>culture has changed to fit
>the music or maybe its
>the other way around. Anyway
>jazz still lives b/c it
>still has that culture.

Yep.

>and its in other things too,
>pyschadelic rock and roll is
>no more,

What do the B52's do??? I know they still tour. Remember that "groove is in the heart" song a while back, with Bootsy??? That was psychadelic rock and roll. Have you ever seen a what happens to a city when the Greatful Dead show up??? It's evolved into something else, but it ain't dead.

ditto to true
>soul music.
>the social groups that supported this
>music has been long gone*.

The church was THE major factor in Soul music and it ain't gone nowhere. Besides there are way too many praticioners of Soul music alive right now to say that it's really dead. Are you saying that when Stevie sung "Superstition" in 73 it was Soul, but in 01 it's something else??

>*by soul culture being gone i'm
>refering to the civil rights
>movement.

Stop right there. The Civil Rights Movement NEVER STOPPED. NAACP and most of the other organizations that were formed then are still alive and kicking today. And Blacks are still catching hell in this country.

R&B is not dead
>b/c it has evolved with
>black culture. BUt alot of
>its derivtives along the way
>are gone. THere influence is
>still felt, but they are
>gone none the less.

I'm starting to re-think my opinion about whether or not Soul ever TRUELY seperated from R&B. I don't think that they are mutually exclusive events. I think we have allowed these labels to seperate things that are really inseperable.

I gotta go.

Peace

Wendell

Peace

Wendell

>*by soul culture being gone i'm
>refering to the civil rights
>movement.

>Stop right there. The Civil Rights Movement NEVER STOPPED. NAACP >and
>most of the other organizations that were formed then are still >alive
>and kicking today. And Blacks are still catching hell in this >country.

b'sides, the signifying music of the (early to mid) Civil Rights Movement (the term as used in history "texts") was folk and sprititual. White sympathizers adopted the genre (already a black-originated music) to show their alliance and then made mad money off of it because it was made more easily accessible ... The original bus boycotters were singing "We Shall Overcome" not "What's going on", which came much later and is actually a result of the Black Power movement, which looked to a more direct African root connection for its musical sounds, racial identity, and its political formats...

What Wendell says is true .... interestingly enough, and relating back to the original question of this thread, the sound of music has often changed to reflect a cultural sentiment ... but evolution, as Wendell stated, does not equal death .... sure, Cymande and the Oneness of JuJu aren't dictating the norms of today's music, but you tell a house producer in Chicago that the Binge drum ain't part of his culture after he's turned it into a masterpiece, and you might damn well have a fight on your hands

***********
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>Ask all the boy bands.
>It evolved, but the fundamentals
>are the same. Boys
>to Men and all the
>groups that followed them use
>whole harmony/spacing/tones that was originated
>by doo wop. My
>moms went to a show
>not long ago that had
>a lot of the doo
>wop artist of the 50's
>performing. It's not dead.
>
>

1) of course their influence has been felt, but its not doo wop. im not saying that once a music's supporting culture disappears it is forgotten, but if the infastruture that helped spawn the music is gone, then i dont see how the music can continue to be made, unless its operating from a different culture
2) arent those doo wop revival concerts the ones with the notorious reputation of stealing a bands name b/c they didnt copyright it, and then using completely different people to sing the songs? doesnt sound like it has a pulse to me.


>>and its in other things too,
>>pyschadelic rock and roll is
>>no more,
>
>What do the B52's do???
>I know they still tour.
> Remember that "groove is
>in the heart" song a
>while back, with Bootsy???
>That was psychadelic rock and
>roll. Have you ever
>seen a what happens to
>a city when the Greatful
>Dead show up??? It's
>evolved into something else, but
>it ain't dead.
>

as far as old acts touring...i dont think it really applies. I've been to those shows and it is basically a best of revue. they arent really creating anything new, just hauling out the old stuff to make a living. the musicians arent literaly dead, but the creativity and freshness of it all is long gone.

and again i think there is a difference between the influence of a style being shown and the life/death of that style. And that is mostly due to the fact that when the music is influenced by a previous style it is operating from a diff. cultural context, its not a resurrecting the old music.


>Are
>you saying that when Stevie
>sung "Superstition" in 73 it
>was Soul, but in 01
>it's something else??
>

no not at all. you are never going to change what the music is simply because the culture is gone. However i dont think you can make soul music today b/c the culture now isnt the same as it was then. That's why they call it neo-soul and not soul. Its influenced by it, but at its core its still the product of a modern culture.

Giving You True Lesson Moderation Since'03
******

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"as far as old acts touring...i dont think it really applies. I've been to those shows and it is basically a best of revue. they arent really creating anything new, just hauling out the old stuff to make a living. the musicians arent literaly dead, but the creativity and freshness of it all is long gone."


i've been wondering about this a lot lately. I do marketing and promotions and have worked the Salem and Spitkickers touring shows in this region every time ... Which means I've seen a De La show about 12 times in the last 2 and some change years .... Recently, they were back at Mt. Holyoke ...

Im a die-hard De La fan and would never consider them to be among the "dead" groups, but if what you say above is the law, then yes ... they are ...

Because I've seen the same show 12 times ... and because it's always the same show. Not necessarily because De La want it to be, but because their audiences (in some parts) are rarely interested in their new stuff. In fact, they don't envision De La as having new stuff. They only want the Daisy Age De La ... and when group members ask them again and again if they can do some new stuff (or do they wanna hear the same old stuff), the resounding answer is usually for the old.

Classics, yes they are .... but what do you do with a modern day band who might be forging a new ground for themselves, but whose audience only wants them to be what they were 8 years ago ????

***********
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http://www.last.fm/listen/user/MaliceGrant/personal

just looking for opinions ... in no way meant to insult, degrade, or otherwise take away from De La glory .... just wondering about these things lately ...

***********
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http://www.last.fm/listen/user/MaliceGrant/personal

"That's why they call it neo-soul and not soul. Its influenced by it, but at its core its still the product of a modern culture."


the labels you're using have been assigned by a media and marketing population trying to find ways to take something time-standard and sell it to a new audience -- this stuff's been here.
_____________________________________________________________

"style is the death of creativity." -- Don Cherry

***********
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>1) of course their influence has
>been felt, but its not
>doo wop. im not
>saying that once a music's
>supporting culture disappears it is
>forgotten, but if the infastruture
>that helped spawn the music
>is gone, then i dont
>see how the music can
>continue to be made, unless
>its operating from a different
>culture

The flaw in your logic is that you are trying to place static event (the creation of Doo Woop) onto an evolving process (the culture of Black America). Culture evolves and grows and moves with the conditions of that culture. I'm not aware of any specific event that created Doo Woop, nor am I willing to say that artist like Take 6 or Boys 2 Men aren't continuing the Doo Woop traditions. Honestly, we are all vesting too much into the titles that are given to music for marketing purposes.

>2) arent those doo wop revival
>concerts the ones with the
>notorious reputation of stealing a
>bands name b/c they didnt
>copyright it, and then using
>completely different people to sing
>the songs? doesnt sound like
>it has a pulse to
>me.

According to my moms, Gene Chandler and various other groups were there and accounted for. And really, does it matter who sings the songs as long as the songs are getting sung.

>as far as old acts touring...i
>dont think it really applies.
>I've been to those shows
>and it is basically a
>best of revue. they arent
>really creating anything new, just
>hauling out the old stuff
>to make a living. the
>musicians arent literaly dead, but
>the creativity and freshness of
>it all is long gone.

I very clearly stated my position about practioners. Take it or leave it. Question: Mozarts been dead for over two hundred years right??? Is his compositions dead??? Be vary careful with this one, cause if the answer is yes, then EVERYTHING dies after conception. That may be a factor in life, but not culture.

>and again i think there is
>a difference between the influence
>of a style being shown
>and the life/death of that
>style. And that is
>mostly due to the fact
>that when the music is
>influenced by a previous style
>it is operating from a
>diff. cultural context, its not
>a resurrecting the old music.

Once again, static circumstances on an evolving process.

you
>are never going to change
>what the music is simply
>because the culture is gone.
>However i dont think you
>can make soul music today
>b/c the culture now isnt
>the same as it was
>then.

I use to believe that too, now I'm not so sure.

That's why they call
>it neo-soul and not soul.

No it's not. We both know the term was coined by Kedar to catergorize new artists. I will not say that the actual music is new, or the intent in which it was made. But for conversation sake, how do you "categorize" Luther and Anita Baker???

>Its influenced by it, but
>at its core its still
>the product of a modern
>culture.

Yes, evolution of that culture.

Peace

Wendell

Peace

Wendell

[]it cant be just one evolving culture, unless you are going with a very broad definiton of culture.

jazzz and doo wop, both artforms of the black community aroudn the same time period.

musically they dont really have much in common, im saying that different cultures produced those styles.

When jazz was abandoned by mainstream black culture it transfered to a different jazz sub culture and the music changes, that isnt an evolution of culture its a jump. And mainstream black culture shifted in a way that might as well be considered a new culture musically.

or is all that crap?

Giving You True Lesson Moderation Since'03
******

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>[]it cant be just one evolving
>culture, unless you are going
>with a very broad definiton
>of culture.

I do. I've found that Black people all over the country have the same "roots" so to speak. Like being a descendant from someone in the south. That commonality is really strong becaue it crosses so many aspects of our culture. From dietary habits (Greens and grits) to religion (various denominations) to music. I came to this conclusion when I went away to school. I had friends from Cali to NYC (and almost everywhere in between) and when we all met, we were expecting to have nothing in common with one another. We came to learn that we weren't all that different at all and had shared mainly the same experiences. Of course there were some regional differences, but fundamentally our outlook on life wasn't all that different.

But, when you add in other people of African heritage from other countries (Haiti or Jamica or Africa) you get a very different world view.

>jazzz and doo wop, both artforms
>of the black community aroudn
>the same time period.
>
>musically they dont really have much
>in common, im saying that
>different cultures produced those styles.

No, because neither are tied to any particular set of people within the culture. I don't believe the two to be mutually exclusive. Who's to say that our favorite doo-woop'ers weren't accomplished Jazz cats in their spare time and vice versa?

>When jazz was abandoned by mainstream
>black culture it transfered to
>a different jazz sub culture
>and the music changes, that
>isnt an evolution of culture
>its a jump. And mainstream
>black culture shifted in a
>way that might as well
>be considered a new culture
>musically.

We should remember that Jazz was "Pop" music for a while in this country. So it wasn't just abandoned by Black culture, it was abonded by the mainstream in general.

Honestly, I think Jazz turned inward after it found it couldn't compete with more "fun music" like Rock & Roll and R&B. Jazz cats got more concerned about making music for other cats and expanding boundaries than for entertaining the general public.

It also became hip for non-musical people to "understand" this music more than the masses. Hell, most of us pretend to understand what they were/are doing now, so nothing has really changed. Add into this, the lack of singers and words in general, and you get what made Jazz less appealing to the masses.

If you asked me, Jazz is one of the few art forms that stayed true to it's artistic intergrity.

>or is all that crap?

I wouldn't call your thoughts/beliefs crap. We all trying to figure this shit out... except for Alek.



Peace

Wendell

Peace

Wendell

>
>I'm starting to re-think my opinion
>about whether or not Soul
>ever TRUELY seperated from R&B.
> I don't think that
>they are mutually exclusive events.
> I think we have
>allowed these labels to seperate
>things that are really inseperable.
>
>

much love,
Kyle

Detroit..Let's GO!!! May 12th Dilla Walk for Lupus...Belle Isle...

http://walk.lupusresearch.org/goto/blackeyedskeez

Even a Dollar can HELP..


http://www.myspace.com/jedikyle
http://www.detroitderbygirls.com/

______________________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What?! What?!

____________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What? What?

"Yes that's what happens. But in reality, it's common for people within a certain culture to reject their own culture and adopt another one."

that's not true...certain types of people are more prone to that than others. There are some groups of people who need to eat up the culture of others because historically they seem to lack creative thought & ability (comparitively).

C'mon how you gonna diss the ?uestion like that, of course he wasn't a Fat Boy. Now previous to Roots life, Quest did appear on television. He played Shirley on "What's Happenin?" - fxsnyc 6/19/01

different from what you expressed???

Peace

Wendell

Peace

Wendell

all this without even TOUCHING on the economics side ....

***********
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>[]okay a couple of questions:
>
>1) Is all music a product
>of one culture or another

It has to be. Cause u wouldnt be the same person had u lived somewhere else and gone thru different situations.

>
>if yes then continue:
>2) Does this mean that listeners
>of music are broadly sweeped
>into two categories; a) practioners
>of the culture

Or intrigued by it. I'm not a Gangster, but i love gangster movies. Always wished my uncle or somebody in the family had direct ties.


and b)
>people who operate outside it
>and are only enjoying the
>tangible benefits of the culture

Could be. They are putting the art out there to be judged


>3) When we say a music
>has died are we refering
>more to the culture being
>dead?

I think so. I wish people would realize that 88 is gone and soon 01 will be gone to. Take a listen now cause now u can tell what people are really like when their music came out. Instead of hearing the shit 4 years later and not being in that time to really jugde the music.

and is it possible
>to create music after its
>founding culture is no more

It would be hard to not bite off of those who were creating from that time if u did not take part in that time period. Otherwise i dont see how u can speak accurately if u werent there or speaking from second hand knowledge. Cause no body tells the whole story, both sides.

"Dont see my ones, dont see my guns / Get it??"

Early!

"Just cause I beat a body dont think I'm lucky / Nawww... I Stay in shit like a box of Huggies" O

"From the home of Smokin Joe / That nigga dropped Ali" O

"Nigga, I'm keepin it gutter, gat and a butter / Eight wonder, young nigga hotter than thun

Malice raises a good point about De La's current status as a "revue" act. I'm as big a fan as they have, and I gotta say that I was more thrilled to hear "Saturdays" the last time I saw them than I was to hear "Oooh"...but I don't think that I am just demanding that they never grow. It took me a few months to not be disappointed by BUHLOONE MINDSTATE, and a year or so to recognise just how damned strong the record was. Loving an act's old work shouldn't -- and DOESN'T, Mal -- always mean that you are showing disinterest in the new work.


One thing I think is part of the old acts coming back with a "best of" show is that there are so many MORE fans of hip hop now who never got to see them (or hear their records) when they were new, but who know that these are people who influenced hip hop immeasurably.

Six months or so ago, there was a "Hip Hop All Stars" type of show in NYC organized by KRS...it had Whodini, Dana Dane, Stetsa, Doug E. and Slick Rick, Kool Moe Dee, and about a thousand others. Nothing could have kept me from that show...and it wasn't for some dumb-ass "ironic detachment" old-schoolism, it was the fact that I never got the chance to hear Moe Dee do "I Go To Work" live as a kid, cuz I was too young, too far from NYC, whatever. But what was coolest about the show wasn't hearing that song, or "La Di Da Di" or whatever...it was hearing the NEW verses Moe Dee was spitting in the onstage cypher, hearing the new singles Poor Righteous Teachers had to promote, and seeing just how vibrant hip hop is when it acknowledges its past.

just another long, random thought...

--Stoph

------
"Saying rap is not work is ludicrous...whoever said it must be new to this..."

www.soundclick.com/oldscratch

...(assuming he can get some funds to get across an ocean, ANY ocean)...says:

>1) Is all music a product
>of one culture or another

Well, if you define culture as "the totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought" (dictionary.com), then obviously music comes from culture.

Here's the crux, as I see it. Whether you see music IN culture or music AS culture (a basic question in anthro/ethno study).

If it's a cultural component, then theoretically it can have a separate but probably inter-related evolution. But it's also unique and corruptible.

If it's a cultural product, it can be exported, adapted, etc.

>2) Does this mean that listeners
>of music are broadly sweeped
>into two categories; a) practioners
>of the culture and b)
>people who operate outside it
>and are only enjoying the
>tangible benefits of the culture

Nope. It's a spectrum. Especially given the fact that a) no one "practices" culture, they live it -- and to some extent, have to grow in it, and b) even if they did "practice," they practice on a spectrum as well.

Someone living in Johannesburg could probably offer more about Western culture than someone living in the Montana badlands.

I do think, however, that you can roughly divide music listeners into musicians and appreciators. But I'm not sure what good it does you.

>3) When we say a music
>has died are we refering
>more to the culture being
>dead? and is it possible
>to create music after its
>founding culture is no more?

Whenever I refer to a type of music being "dead" I'm pretty much always talking about its generative period. For instance, rock n roll is long dead, but we've still got your Lyle Lovett, your Matchbox Twenty, your Travis, even your Strokes. It's like an old oak tree...once it dies and stops growing, it still sticks around in its former shape and looks nice.

Soul, of course, is not dead because it's not a genre.

(*putting on safety goggles*)

Alek
______________________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What?! What?!

____________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What? What?

>>3) When we say a music
>>has died are we refering
>>more to the culture being
>>dead? and is it possible
>>to create music after its
>>founding culture is no more?
>
>Whenever I refer to a type
>of music being "dead" I'm
>pretty much always talking about
>its generative period. For
>instance, rock n roll is
>long dead, but we've still
>got your Lyle Lovett, your
>Matchbox Twenty, your Travis, even
>your Strokes. It's like
>an old oak tree...once it
>dies and stops growing, it
>still sticks around in its
>former shape and looks nice.
>
but what is at the root of the generative period's demise?

i mean over the past few hundred years we have seen alot of styles come and go, i would assume its not a unique scenario for each one.

To me the most logical explanation to me is that its a shifting or in the extreme cases a complete breakdown of the culture which the music had ties.

Swing --> Bebop = shift
blues--> rock = new culture


>Soul, of course, is not dead
>because it's not a genre.
>
and not to jack my own thread but i still think you getting hung up on the word Soul.

capital S = genre
lower case s = that quality that all music has within it



[]

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******

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>but what is at the root
>of the generative period's demise?

A mix of innovation and changing receptivities.

If you want to define that as a cultural shift, I'd agree.

I don't think it signals a cultural "death," though.

>and not to jack my own
>thread but i still think
>you getting hung up on
>the word Soul.

>capital S = genre
>lower case s = that quality
>that all music has within
>it

Well, not to jack your own post-jack, but I'm not getting hung up. I know "Soul" with a capital "S" is our conventional way of talking about a particular genre. Doesn't mean it should be, and it doesn't mean that such a genre actually exists.

(I have yet to hear a solid, convincing enumeration of its musical characteristics...usually it all comes back to some emotional/communicative quality, and I tend to believe that you can get those qualities from all different shapes and colors of music)

I'm still open to movement on this, but it's been a while now, and I think it would have happened if it was going to.

Alek

______________________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What?! What?!

____________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What? What?

[]i guess it is just shifting without any real endpoints.

that's kind of hard to reconile though, the same culture that spawned swing music also spawned james brown and The Roots w/ a few twists and turns along the way.

but it does make more sense that way.

and far as the soul debate i leave that one up to the heavy hitters, i definitely dont have the artillery for that debate.

Giving You True Lesson Moderation Since'03
******

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>that's kind of hard to reconile
>though, the same culture that
>spawned swing music also spawned
>james brown and The Roots
>w/ a few twists and
>turns along the way.


I didn't say it was the same culture. If you don't want to define different cultures by geographical, economic, or ethnic differences then sure: it's all the same river and it carries everyone upstream.

But I think you can make those divisions, to a certain extent.

Different smaller cultures have evolved and shifter.

Which is not to say that the shifts haven't been radical as hell.

Hiphop was a 180 and damn near nullified most of the music before it.

Same with jazz. "You mean you make it up??"

>and far as the soul debate
>i leave that one up
>to the heavy hitters, i
>definitely dont have the artillery
>for that debate.

Neither does anyone else. Artillery doesn't equal # of albums or square feet of musical knowledge.

Alek

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Turntablism along with B-boying are two of the biggest hip hop cultures which have become multi-racial.

The last seven concerts i've been to i've only seen white, asian, and hispanic Deejays. It might be the area i'm living in but African Americans still hold the mold for MCing and Beat Boxing but turntablism and bboying(probably because of the new and ever growing rave culture instead of hip hop)are the most diverse of all the hiphop cultures. We'll see if the trend continues. I believe that turntablism is the most diverse because of the low of DJs during the WU/Tupac/Biggie/Dr.Dre era and the underground stayed with the turntables. The mainstream hip hop music from this time never seemed to use a whole lot of turntablism unlike groups like Tribe, Pharcyde, Souls of Mischief, PE and others. Plus turntablism has expanded to typically white musics like Punk, techno, rap metal (god help this horrible genre) and drums n' bass.

"lurking in the boards since 99"

you're calling drum & bass a "typically white music"?

*falls out in laughter*

"a man must dream a long time in order to act with grandeur, and dreaming is nursed in darkness." © Jean Genet

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http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/287/6/c/the_wire_lineup__huge_download_by_dennisculver-d30s7vl.jpg
The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

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-------------------------
::bounce'n off yo'radar::
Blaktroniks - Testing
Colonel Red - Soul Believer
Til Tuesday - Voices Carry
Prickly Pear/Jinesis - Ppl
Kashif - The Mood
Blk Bobby - The Grn Lite
Zo/Tigallo - Human

aGainst.The.gRain.radiO
fridays.10a-

i equate turntablism with the technical aspects of spinning. when how clever you spend exceeds the importance of what you spin. ummmm but that's only one part of DJ'n. i mean i aint tryna pay 20 bonz to see no muhfugka look pretty spinning records. or its only so much beatjuggling a bruh can take in any given evening. equally as important what is the turntablist playing and how is the puzzle fitting together. very key aspects of DJ culture.

-------------------------
::bounce'n off yo'radar::
Blaktroniks - Testing
Colonel Red - Soul Believer
Til Tuesday - Voices Carry
Prickly Pear/Jinesis - Ppl
Kashif - The Mood
Blk Bobby - The Grn Lite
Zo/Tigallo - Human

aGainst.The.gRain.radiO
fridays.10a-