77. "RE: then why not just take 'Black' out the equation?" In response to In response to 71
> >And see this is what I'm tryna get at. If the loan officer >tells me no and tells my white neighbor yes, I'll be ready to >holla racism, HOWEVER if the same loan officer that told me no >tells my black neighbor yes, I'll be more open to finding out >why I didn't get the loan and asking my black neighbor how did >they go about getting theirs.
You'd be wrong to hollar racism until you knew why your white counterpart got it and you didn't. I mean, you didn't say ya'll were identical except for race, so assuming race was what made the difference would've been jumping to conclusions.
Of course you can't make that conclusion if another black person gets it and you don't but what if he got some other form of preference?
Basically what I'm saying is that you don't know what limited you until you ask the same questions of both your neighbors. How you say you'd react is probably common but that doesn't mean it's the right or constructive way to react.
You're also missing out on access to possibly better services. The average black consumer pays higher interest rates than whites for many reasons, race being one of them. But it's not just bc the loan officer is cheating them, it's bc the avg black consumer is recommending his bad loan officer to other black consumers.
Daily, someone in the situation you described goes to their black neighbor for advice, unaware that the black neighbor is paying 1% more than the white neighbor. If he ever finds out what the white neighbor is paying, he'll again cry racism bc the white neighbor was obviously keeping a secret (instead of acknowledging he probably shoulda asked him how he got his loan and what rate he got in the first place).
It's possible the black neighbor has the best rate in town, but reality shows we're perenially underserved so it seems logical that our referrals are probably below par as well. Opening up discussion like this to whoever is down to talk would help bring more of these injustices to light and improve our lot.
>Granted that sounds bogus, but >I'm able to rule out a lot of bs when discussing issue that >may be race related...talking to a white person about how they >got their loan will only help so much and if after applying >the same effort I don't get positive results, I can validate >my race cry, but why, just to prove the establishment is >racist? I don't have time for that shit, so it would suit me >best to push that aside and ask someone who perhaps got over >that hurdle in advance so I can do the same.
I can see what you're saying but you seem to be assuming that race is such a big factor in every single interaction with whites that it automatically invalidates any insight a white person might have about difference in treatment. Race is usually the most blatant difference but I usually try to delve past the obvious before making a judgement call.
Why? Bc race-based decisions are often the most irrational so in my mind I have to disqualify plausible, rational explanations before I delve into the irrational. I know it's tempting and emotionally satisfying to think racism is what's holding you back, but there's often another explanation.
Also by going through the plausible explanations first, you're gathering evidence that will be helpful should racism turn out to be the issue.
>Therefore if my >effort is shot I know its me and therefore will work on >me...not trying to get some civilrights law suit going.
You wouldn't bring a civil rights suit if you were discriminated against?
I can understand your apprehension if you thought your case was weak (i.e. "that white guy got a loan but I didn't"), but if you've gathered substantial information that proves racism on a companies part, I'd think righteous indignation or just a feeling of duty for your community would impel you to go through with the suit.
But hey, do you.
>Funny thing is that back in the day, Blacks could only turn to >blacks for constructive info and we owned more then than we do >now. Why is that?
You've answered your own question. There was no other choice. There was a defacto solidarity. That doesn't mean that they were passing better information around. If they were, their businesses wouldn't have suffered when the repealing of the segregation laws opened up our businesses to competition from the mainstream.
>>I believe there's a standard formula for success here .. >i.e. >>the people that are successful here (financially, socially, >>etc) tend to do the same things, even wen they come from >>different cultures. Maybe there's a black spin on it, but I >>have a feeling it'll mostly be the same as what everyone >else >>has done. >> >The Black Spin is what I'm aiming for, because I've already >come to the realization that my skin color will be a factor at >some point, why would I ignore it?
In my mind, the Black Spin is the trivial/easy part of the equation. The hard part is specifying what ideas work universally. After that, The Black Spin is just translating those ideas into a form palatable and relevant to the black community.
> >>Now, much of our community would consider that "selling >out". >>But truth be told, the other groups that come here (and many >>of us look to as examples for maintaining their heritage AND >>succeeding) are the biggest "sellouts" in this nation. Think >>about it... >> >>+They left their "hood" for our deluxe country on the >>west-side (of the earth). >>+Sure, they keep some of their old traditions but they >>invariably change their bahavior to fit in better. >>+They kick some money home but nothing really improves at >home >>(that's why they stay here). >>+And though some people are proud of their accomplishments, >>many are jealous that they're still stuck in the hood they >>grew up in. >> >What exactly would we consider "selling out"?
Just pretend it's a black person doing everything I bulleted. Many other black people would consider that "sellout behaviour". I don't.
>>If the hood does improve, thouggh, it's invariably through >the >>hard work of those that were still at home uplifting >>themselves. Eventually that starts to attract their >countrymen >>back (see Ethiopia, India, Korea) bc they now feel their >>country is moving in the same direction they are. >> >>Examples are out there, yet we're supposed to sit with >>blinders on and re-invent the wheel. >> >No bodies talking about re-inventing the wheel, but about >seeing and understanding whats out there and NOT being afraid >to discuss that info and most of all the info from your own >community amongst those that make up your community. Theres no >need to go searching for information outside your community >when their are folks right next door setting positive >examples. That's like driven to some white burbs for a pair of >shoes when the Black owned store around the corner has the >same shoe for a lessor price.
You keep going back to this "either/or" paradigm..... Either you're discussing these issues exclusively within your group OR you're discussing it explicitly OUTSIDE your group.
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying we should remain open to insight from WHOMEVER is knowledgeable and useful. If your black neighbors have all the hookups and knows what the deal is, I have no problem with you sticking with them.
Unfortunately, you're probably in a rare group. The average person needs to remain receptive to whoever has the best information, and that can be anyone.
>>Despite the fact many people feel it is, this does not have >to >>be a zero sum game. I mean, there are some teams or >companies >>where it's everybody for themselves but that's not how the >>whole or even most of the corporate world acts. >> >U can't be serious. There's not a company I know who's top >execs are willing to give fair play to ground workers. A good >example is the United Airlines issue. They'd rather pay pilots >minimum wage w/ only dental benefits if they can continue >living it up while supplying passengers with video game >equipment on flights...hell them bastards aren't even willing >to better the safety of planes for fear of cost and loosing >their plush lifestyles. Ha, and you think the US could give >more of a damn?
Pilots make 250k a year. You must mean the stewards and stewardesses.
If you think about what they do, they're basically waitresses. They make more in base salary but don't get tips. Ok, maybe a stewardess should be allowed to get tips but how much do you think their services are really worth? Do her daily actions ensure her and all her workmates get paid and get those dental benefits? Does she find financing to pay for the planes she's serving drinks and peanuts in?
And flying is statistically safer than crossing the street or driving in a car. Millions of people fly daily around the world. How many get injured or die in a year? Maybe, MAYBE a couple hundred worldwide. 0.0001%
Yo, that's just a horrible example.
>>To extend the analogy, everyone doesn't look at our >upliftment >>as their downfall. I will admit there are those that do but >>they are slowly fading away. >> >It aint fading fast enough. Drugs are still a heavy issue in >the Black community, not to mention other things. It continues >to exist in our communities for the sole purpose of control >and its just as vivid today as it was in the 80's. We've just >learned to adapt.
Sole purpose is control? Cmon now, leave a little door open for personal responsibility. Did someone force you try your first drug or did you choose to?
>> >>I can't account for your experiences. The only white people >I >>know that comment on the black community to me are those >that >>are already deep in the black community... and they're >usually >>saying the same things other black people are saying. > >Well who are these white folks, do they have the power to >ignitiate action and have they or are they just throwing out >more opinions? >What do you consider 'deep in the black community'? Are you >saying they were born and raised in Black communities, >intermarried?
Ignitiate is a great word. I'm stealing it.
No, they don't have the power to ignitiate structural change, because they're mostly peers. Being white, though, they'll still have influence when they gain more power through the years.
And by deep in the community, I mean they participate in the community as much as the community is willing to accept them. I'm not talking some "I wanna be down" types. I'm talking about folks that understand that they may not be fully accepted but are
And the community they participate in is predominantly black, so I'd call it the black community.
and just how black is the community if there's a >multiple number of whites within it? Would that be considered >a mixed or multicultural community?
If the overwhelming majority is still black, it's a black community.
>We could be talking about solutions for our communities...but >instead we're discussing rather or not to include somebody >else in a discussion we have yet to even parttake in...sad.
I see it as part of the solution. I'm very interested in finances and technology and I try to share whatever information I can with other younger and less knowledgable black people ... but guess where I get some of that info I'm passing down?
People ask how I learn some of these things and I'm honest... by experience and by picking the brain of anyone that will give me the time of day. I fyou've got some info I want or need, I'm gonna ask. If you don't tell me, I'll find another source.
>Answer back if you like, I'll read but this tail chancing >needs to end.