So this dude was lingering around the gas station after work yesterday.

He walks up to me with a card and a bucket, and says he's from a ministry for recovering drug addicts, celebrating an anniversary, and they were out witnessing and collecting donations.

I said I'm sorry, I don't have any cash on me. He said ok and just walked off.

So I said... that's it? No witnessing, just asking for money? He said, oh yeah, you have a point.

I told him that this wasn't a good look, because it gives the impression that the ministry angle is just a ruse for the money.

I said I'm an atheist, but I was once a Christian for nearly twenty years, and while I’m not actually interested in hearing about the ministry itself, if this is what he’s trying to live by, he’s got to do better because he’s leaving a poor impression of that ministry.


So he says I’ll believe again someday. I said no, I won’t. He said I need to devote myself more, pray more, read more bible, seek him more, etc.

So I explained that I’ve been there, done that, and dipped into a couple examples of how christianity and religion as a whole don’t really hold up to very basic scrutiny. I let him know that if this ministry is helping him stay clean, by all means, keep at it. And if that belief is what he thinks he needs to hold onto to stay the course, so be it.

I then told him that he’s a man with a mind and if he wakes up and decides not to use, it’s because he made that choice for himself, and he can make that same choice every day if he so chooses.

He just said to have a nice life.
And that was that.

Naturally I’ve replayed the interaction and there are certain things I’d have said differently or with greater clarity. It was an interesting exchange, having had so many from his side of the coin way back when.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

How am I a terrible atheist?

Please explain.

Is it because I held him accountable to his dishonest pretense?

Is it because I let him know he was showing himself to be a poor representative of his ministry?

Or because I encouraged him to continue with that ministry if that was what he thought he needed to stay clean?

Or was it when I didn't impose my lack of belief onto him, choosing instead to take a cliffs note approach to why I'm no longer a believer?

Was it when I encouraged him with the notion that he may well have the strength and capability of making the choices he needs to stay clean?

I'm just wondering what you find so terrible about those things.

begging is hearing no and continuing to give a sob story or guilt trip you

You said no, he moved on... then you engaged him, told him he was terrible at his ministry and how you are an atheist and he could be one too.

Should’ve just left it alone but you got a chance to tell someone else how you are no longer a believer.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

But you taking a Simple Simon perspective on this is no surprise.

You really want this to be the sort of vile, malicious attack you imagine it was.

It was anything but. Hate to disapopoint.

But let's entertain that for a second. Try and put your personal disdain for me, as well as your inherently simplistic nature, aside for a minute.

If people can go out and proselytize, or pretend to proselytize, it's fair game to challenge them.

And you seemed disappointed in that for some reason.


>
>If people can go out and proselytize, or pretend to
>proselytize, it's fair game to challenge them.

_______________________________________

but it sounds like CT was disappointed in dude because he didn’t try to work him over.

I have much more respect for those who hear no and respect my time instead of continuing to hound me.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

>but it sounds like CT was disappointed in dude because he
>didn’t try to work him over.

You said you can't entertain what I didn't put in the story.

Yet you entertain this, instead of entertaining the actual reasoning I've actually stated several times.

And I think that prssents a negative image of the ministry.

You haven't at all explained what was so wrong abut that.

If anything it was just the typical annoying “I’m an Atheist” speech

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

The reaction you've had is entirely over the top.

You think it's shitty to hold someone accountable for presenting one motive and showing another.

Nad lmao at being more bothered by an "I'm an atheist speech" than a guy saying hes out witnessing and collecting money for a ministry, but offering zero witness when he doesn't get money.

You're bothered by a reasonable conversation on the matter, but tnot that.

and grateful when they respect my no and KIM

I don’t give speeches or try to fix them so they can annoy people more than they already are.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

_______________________________________

He presented himself as being out witnessing *and* getting donations, but had no word to offer when he didn't get a donation.

I told him how that looks and encouraged him to do better. I told him i was an atheist because I didn't want or need the witness and wasn't requesting any.

He then tried to witness and I explained why I don't believe.

I then encouraged him to do what he felt he needed to do. That's the opposite of a fight.

But you keep closing the distance

_______________________________________

Telling me I'll believe someday, and teling me what I need to do to make that happen is not a retreat.

He engaged and we had a conversation.

You and others keep inferring an imposition ghat isn't there and didn't happen.

You want us to see the behind the scenes, but you didn't film it

_______________________________________

How you choose to fill in those blanks is up to you, of course.

But you choose to characterize this as "looking for a fight", which isn't at all the case and not evident in my telling.

You have to reach for that conclusion.

Not the life and message of a Northeast African man who spent some time in North Africa as a kid

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

It's not a good look and makes him look like a poor representative. He listened and I think someone who was insincere wouldn't have stuck around tk hear what i had to say. Like I said, he said I had a point about that and then tried.

I wasn't trying to hear the witnessing personally. More power to him, but he needs to make sure he's trying to witness as well, and not just asking for money.

so seems like that was the goal just based behavior.

What was your goal? To tell him to do better about the subject you have no interest in?

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

>What was your goal? To tell him to do better about the subject
>you have no interest in?

The way you guys keep going out of your way to re-frame it like this is telling.

Anyhow, he may have been trying to scam, I don't know.

But if he's going to walk that walk, I thought I'd let him know he can and should do it upright.

and not really knowing how

Happens all the time

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

>So this dude was lingering around the gas station after work
>yesterday.
>
>He walks up to me with a card and a bucket, and says he's from
>a ministry for recovering drug addicts, celebrating an
>anniversary, and they were out witnessing and collecting
>donations.
>
>I said I'm sorry, I don't have any cash on me. He said ok and
>just walked off.

You didn't want to be preached to
He didn't seem like he wanted to "preach" (assuming he actually was a preacher and not just using that for sympathy)

------

12 play and 12 planets are enlighten for all the Aliens to Party and free those on the Sex Planet-maxxx

XBL: trkc21
Twitter: @tyrcasey

I think there's some knee-jerk assumptions of malice on my part that aren't present.

The discussion was a bit more detailed and I gave the gist. I've been a Christian and I've been down that road, and sometimes you need a little guidance to course correct.

Body language, vocal tone, etc aren't ging to translate, and guys like legs absoluately won't even entertain the notion that, when I said "so no witnessing if I don't have money?", I was smiling and laughing.

Or that the reason I told him to stick with that ministry if that's what he thinks he needs to stay clean was because I had just told him I was an atheist and gave a couple reasons why... but didn't want to him to think I was trying to deconvert him.

So there are some things that won't necessarily translate in my retelling of the exchange.

So I didn't just end it there and then because I had the choice to give him food for thought regarding the way he's repping that ministry, or let him keep doing it in a way that looks really bad.

I made what I think was the more empathetic choice.

I don't like being "witnessed to" in public, and I am guessing you don't either. You were home free, then decided to prolong the conversation to talk about how he was doing a subpar job of a thing you didn't want to put up with to begin with. So now that he's heard your words, what next?

Does he get more aggressive with his pitches? Lead off the next person with a heartfelt anecdote about how he got saved instead of just asking for money? Do you think you made him a better person by prolonging it?

I just can't fathom being hit up for money by randos on the street (which is always annoying particularly when they do the "I'm a pastor just trying to . . ." angle) and then going "no, I'll teach him a thing or two, about my personal religious beliefs."

------

12 play and 12 planets are enlighten for all the Aliens to Party and free those on the Sex Planet-maxxx

XBL: trkc21
Twitter: @tyrcasey

>You were home free, then decided to
>prolong the conversation to talk about how he was doing a
>subpar job of a thing you didn't want to put up with to begin
>with.

First, it happens a lot out here and I keep it short and sweet when I decline.

The atheist thing doesnt even come up unless they press in.

That doesn't mean that I don't see some practical value in religion. In this case, it's a recovery ministry. I thought it was worthwhile to show him how his MO looks.

And your characterization of this as me telling him he's doing a subpar job wasn't at all my tact. We can mince words and say it's essentially the same thing, but there's an insistence and casti bug as negative a light as possible at every turn.

>So now that he's heard your words, what next?
>
>Does he get more aggressive with his pitches? Lead off the
>next person with a heartfelt anecdote about how he got saved
>instead of just asking for money? Do you think you made him a
>better person by prolonging it?

I think he may actually witness to people instead of just asking for money. If you're asking me to imagine what form that takes, I'm not interested in speculating on that.

I'd like to think I planted a seed that allows him to put some stock in himself though. But who knows. It's not as though I planned this interaction and had some overarching goal.

>I just can't fathom being hit up for money by randos on the
>street (which is always annoying particularly when they do the
>"I'm a pastor just trying to . . ." angle) and then going "no,
>I'll teach him a thing or two, about my personal religious
>beliefs."

No, this had nothing to dk with teaching him about my *lack of* religious belief.

Again, you're naking an effort to characterize this in a very different way.

If it's not the choice you'd make, so be it. Is the barometer for whether or not an in action is worthwhile, whether or not it's an action you would take?

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

And you choose to fill those blanks exclusively with negatives and refuse to consider a more positive light.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

Simply believing shit that has no supporting evidence is apparently your thing

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

Ok, you will be.

Dude, you're going about life in a horrible manner and you're proud of your action. You also made this post looking for a debate. But the jokes on you, because all you did was make yourself look like a Butt.


"He walks up to me with a card and a bucket, and says he's from a ministry for recovering drug addicts, celebrating an anniversary, and they were out witnessing and collecting donations."


HERE COMES THE LONG RETORT AND BABAL!


.
.
“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” ~ Albert Einstein

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

>Dude, you're going about life in a horrible manner

False. I went about this in a good, well intentioned manner. But you keep

>and you're
>proud of your action.

I wouldn't say proud, but im fine qith ir.

You also made this post looking for a
>debate.

No I just thought it was an interesting encounter.

. But the jokes on you, because all you did was make
>yourself look like a Butt.

...like...a butt? Did you really just say that?


>
>"He walks up to me with a card and a bucket, and says he's
>from a ministry for recovering drug addicts, celebrating an
>anniversary, and they were out witnessing and collecting
>donations."

Yes. And he didn't offer any witnessing when I didn't offer money.

You, of course, being someone who preaches an unfounded lie and has no problem selling snake oil, don't see why that's problematic. But a christian with integrity would, or at least should.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

He’ll respond with some long explanation and retort that justifies his constant antics and railing against Religion

If it's all good to promote religion, as you often do, what's the problem with railing against it?

He walks up to me with a card and a bucket, and says he's from a ministry for recovering drug addicts, celebrating an anniversary, and they were out witnessing and collecting donations.

I said I'm sorry, I don't have any cash on me. He said ok and just walked off.


^^ At this point you should have just KIM.





.
.
“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” ~ Albert Einstein

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

He said he was out there to witness *and*.

As a Christian, i'm sure you would agree that it's important to read the passage before and after a verse. Likewise, we shouldn't simply discard the portions before or after words in sentences

You don't get to move the goalpost to a scenario void of religion being an overt element of his pitch.

Rather, you can, because disregarding facts that don't support your presuppositions is the only way you're able to discuss anything.

and like the miserable person you are you tried to manipulate that guy into an argument because you knew he wasn't a formidable Christian apologist. So you took advantage of this simple inquiry and made it a sport. SMH
.
.
“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” ~ Albert Einstein

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

The entirety of christian apologetics consists of arguments from ignorance, personal incredulity, and/or faith.

You also have that special class of pre-suppositionalists, who basically try to jedi mind trick people with confident assertions while providing no good supporting evidence.

Christian apologetics is nothing more than layer upon layer of insulation deflection, and poor understanding.

You're an amazing example of this.

Second, this notion that I somehow tried to prey someone ill-equipped to handle a challenge to his beliefs is hilarious, because preying on ignorance is synonymous with religious evangelism. You taking issue with the mere idea of preying on someone's ignorance may be the height of hypocrisy.

Dude, you stay looking for an argument regarding anything related to the Lord God because you screwed up your relationship with Him and can't humble yourself to repent. You're too weak to have faith because you're a control freak and you want to try and take your broken faith out on other people. You need healing dude.


.
.
“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” ~ Albert Einstein

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

There are plenty of people who can frame bullshit well enough to impress their choir.

They all do exactly what you do, direct, deflect, redirect, and launch every fallacy they can find.

None of which is "formidable".

Then, of course, are the dregs, which is you, who do shit like everything you just wrote.

Here, go on and investigate each of them and then tell us all how much they lack, oh great one.


#10: Dr. Frank Turek

Dr. Frank Turek has a Master’s degree in Public Administratives from George Washington University and a Doctorate in Philosophy of Religion from Southern Evangelical Seminary. He’s written 4 books and co-authored more books as welled. He’s well known for his book I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist and Stealing From God: Why Atheists Need God To Make Their Case. He’s debated Christopher Hitchens, David Silverman, and many other atheists. He hosts a TV show called I Don’t Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist and hosts a radio show called Cross-Examined. He Speaks at college campuses to give a case for the truth of the Gospel. Dr. Frank Turek is also the president of CrossExamined.org.
http://crossexamined.org

#9: Dr. Hugh Ross

Hugh Ross has a degree in Physics from the University of British Columbia and a PhD in Astronomy from the University of Toronto. Hugh is the owner of Reasons to believe which is an organization that gives scientific reasons to believe in God and Christianity. He has defended the proposition that the age of the Earth is compatible with the Bible. He has written many scientific books for presenting the science for God. Improbable Planet was written by him to show that Earth’s origin is best explained by God. He’s debated many Young Earth Creationists like Kent Hovind and Ken Ham. He’s also debated atheists like Lewis Wolpert. He has truly demonstrated that faith and Science are compatible.
http://www.reasons.org/

#8: James Warner Wallace

James Warner Wallace was an atheist for 35 years and turned Christian when applying his homicide detective skills to the claims of Christianity. He found the gospel accounts of Jesus of Nazareth to be reliable eyewitness accounts. He’s written three books for developing a solid case for the truth of Christianity. His book Forensic Faith, has shown that all Christians should make the case for Christianity since it’s a reasonable faith. God’s Crime Scene, makes the case for the existence of God and explains why we need to go outside the room to account for certain phenomena’s of our universe. Cold Case Christianity, makes the case for the reliability of the New Testament documents and the truth of the Christian faith. He has teamed up with Frank Turek on Fearless Faith Seminars to help spread the need for Apologetics. He shows what apologetics can do for an unbeliever.
http://coldcasechristianity.com/

#7: Dr. J.P Moreland

Dr. J.P Moreland is a Professor of Philosophy at Talbot School of Theology and Biola University. He holds four degrees which are B.S. in chemistry from the University of Missouri, Th.M. in theology from Dallas Theological Seminary, M. A. in philosophy from the University of California-Riverside, and Ph.D. in philosophy from the University of Southern California. He has written many book on apologetics and philosophy. The reason he is on my top ten list is how Dr. Moreland is the defender of the soul and dualism today. He’s written many books about consciousness, free will, and the soul. He is a colleague of apologists like Dr. William Lane Craig. Moreland has challenged skeptics to rethink their materialist worldview concerning the soul.
http://www.jpmoreland.com/

#6: Lee Strobel

Lee Strobel was a journal writer for the Chicago Tribune and wrote for other newspapers as well. He has two degrees which include a Bachelor of Journalism from the University of Missouri and his Master of Studies in Law at Yale Law School. He was an atheist writer who wanted to prove the gospels were wrong and that Jesus Christ did not rise from the Dead. He turned Christian when he investigated the claims of the gospels from using his journalism skills. Just like J Warner Wallace, he turned Christian while trying to prove Christianity to be false. He has written The Case for Christ, The Case for a Creator, and The Case for Faith. These books have left in impact in the field of apologetics. Lee Strobel has made the case for Christianity through his extensive writings and commitments to the Gospel.
https://leestrobel.com/

#5: Dr. Gary Habermas

Dr. Habermas is the chairman of the philosophy and theology at Liberty University. He has a PhD from Michigan State University in history and philosophy of religion and a master's degree from the University of Detroit in philosophical theology. He has made the case for the resurrection, the most important event of Jesus’ earthly ministries. He has debated Anthony Flew on the question of whether the resurrection actually happened. 4 of the seven judges voted that Gary won and the other four were undecided. He has co-authored over 35 books and written over 100 articles concerning his fields of study.
http://www.garyhabermas.com/

#4: Dr. Norman Geisler

Dr. Geisler has co-authored over 100 books and written hundreds of articles concerning Christian Apologetics. He has many degrees in theology and philosophy. Some refer to him as a cross between Thomas Aquinas and Billy Graham. He has also coauthored I don’t have enough Faith to be an Atheist with Frank Turek. He has taught people like Dr. William Lane Craig and Greg Koukl. Norman has participated in many debates and has sealed the deal with many concerning the truth of Christianity. Dr. Norman Geisler has set the foundation for modern day Christian Apologetics.
http://normangeisler.com/

#3: Dr. John Lennox

John Lennox is a professor of Mathematics at Oxford University (same University that Richard Dawkins teaches at). John Lennox holds an MA and DPhil from Oxford University and an MA in Bioethics from the University of Surrey. He was taught under the great C.S Lewis so he has some teaching experience from one of the best apologists. He’s written books like God’s Undertaker: Has Science Buried God? Another great book of his is Seven Days that Divide the World. This book gives John’s commentary of the controversy concerning the different interpretations of Genesis 1. Lennox has debated many of the New Atheists like Christopher Hitchens and Lawrence Krauss. The best of his debates are the two debates with the main horseman of the New Atheist movement. He’s debated Richard Dawkins twice and gave him a run for his money twice. These two debates are the closest we will get to see of a Richard Dawkins vs. William Lane Craig style debate. John Lennox has made science very compatible with the Faith of Christians.
http://www.johnlennox.org/

#2: Ravi Zacharias

Almost on his deathbed at age 17, Ravi felt dead inside. He heard the gospel and came to Christ. Ever since then, he has defended the truth of the Christian Faith with grace and clarity. He started Ravi Zacharias International Ministries which has offices in many places on the globe. Their goal is to spread the Gospel to as many countries as possible and to give a defense for the Gospel. Ravi Zacharias has written many books concerning apologetics and the divinity of Jesus Christ. In Jesus among other Gods, Ravi compares the main differences between Christianity and other Religions. His most recent book Jesus Among Secular Gods, Ravi Zacharias and Vince Vitale compare the main differences between Jesus and new secular religions that have attacked the truth of Christianity. Ravi Zacharias has defended the truth of Christianity against those who deny the deity of Christ.
http://rzim.org/

#1: Dr. William Lane Craig

Dr. William Lane Craig is perhaps one of the best defenders of the Christian Faith today. He has done over hundred of debates defending the Christian Faith against other Worldviews. He has debated most of the New Atheist Horsemen, excluding Dawkins of course. He has many degrees concerning philosophy and religion. He has a B.A from Wheaton College. He has a M.A from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. He has a Ph.D. from the University of Birmingham and University of Munich. William Lane Craig is currently a research Professor of Philosophy at Talbot School of Theology. Craig has defended his five-point case for Christianity which consist of the Kalam Cosmological argument, the Fine-Tuning of argument, the Moral argument, the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the fact that we can experience God. He has written and coauthored over 30 books concerning Christian Philosophy and Apologetics. Dr. William Lane Craig has truly made the Christian Faith a Reasonable Faith.
https://www.reasonablefaith.org/





.
.
“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” ~ Albert Einstein

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

My prior statements stand, as is.

You can count their credentials as "Formidable", but their actual arguments?

Not so much, and logical fallacies abound with every last one of them. In fact I've responded to several of your posts where you used their material.

But yes, they're all successful bullshit artists who managed to impress millions of choir members without providing actual, good evidence for their position.

What you've done is present the best in a field of a really bad crop. Every apologist uses the same junk, and you just presented the guys who do the best job of shining it up 🤣

It's very sad. But that's the darkness of your life.


.
.
“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” ~ Albert Einstein

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

I love how you so consistently deflect with these sorts of personal attacks.

You ignore everything I say on the actual subject at hand, opting instead for these little personal jabs.

Because that's just the kind of christian you are.

.
.
“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” ~ Albert Einstein

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

Of course, what you actually said was a convoluted mess, as i pointed out.

So it makes sense why you'd want to divert from that.

.
.
“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” ~ Albert Einstein

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

You know the whole selling things in a place of worship for worship thing

Question two is how do we explain that phrases referencing a time when cross species hybridization would re-surface we're written at a time when such a thing was for all intents and purposes impossible?

Not talking about religion but what we base it on. I mean if it's all bogus question two should not exist

*Runs out of thread*

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

>You know the whole selling things in a place of worship for
>worship thing

For question 1, Jesus himself said he came to fulfil the law. He also gave instruction to follow all of the commandments.

If you're asking if he's "anti-religion", that's a fairly broad question that depends very much on how you define religion. Further, he was a rabbi, and even referred to as much by the pharisees.

It's hard to say he was anti religion when he claimed to be literal embodiment of religious law of the time, and had a grouo of disciples who referred to him as rabbi.

If he instructed people to adhere to all of the commandments of the god of the Jews, it doesn't follow that he was anti-religion.

Also, you need to clarify the correlation your making between being "anti-religion" and "the whole selling things in a place of worship thing"

You're referencing the cleansing of the temple, and I don't quite see your correlation to that being an example of him being anti-religion.

>Question two is how do we explain that phrases referencing a
>time when cross species hybridization would re-surface we're
>written at a time when such a thing was for all intents and
>purposes impossible?
>
>Not talking about religion but what we base it on. I mean if
>it's all bogus question two should not exist

Can you clarify this question? As written, it's a little sloppy.

As it stands, regardless of what you're specifically referring to, it looks like you're making an argument from ignorance, I.E, implying that if we cannot account for this in some other way, it must mean not only that god exists, but the specific god of this specific book.

And there's a massive can of worms to unpack with that.

Meaning it's what humans do in order to make themselves believe they are doing something that can carry over into a life after death

Religion is ritual without connection e.g. selling birds and other items for sacrifices/offerings in the case of the temple cleansing

Also remarks like "you worship your father the devil" appear to be strongly anti religion as those words were directed at the religious leaders who were certainly more concerned with laws

We may have to stop there because I think without believing in any kind of supreme creator everything is religion so even if there really was a savior for the species who could demonstrate such and had a roadmap for us to live by in order to enjoy life eternally (whatever that translates to) it would still be considered religion by non believers which would be their right (to not believe) of course

>Can you clarify this question? As written, it's a little
>sloppy.

At least one biblical book and the epic of Gilgamesh as well claim the world when Noah lived was one of creation run amok in the form of chimeras (mixed creatures eg the minotaur, satyr, sphinx, etc.)

The person we call Jesus is quoted as saying "in the Days Noah so shall it be at the coming of the son of man"

We have the scientific ability to do exactly what is described as having happened in Noah's time by beings greater than ourselves and have done so

Is this just a really good guess based on the scientific progress of 70AD?

>
>As it stands, regardless of what you're specifically referring
>to, it looks like you're making an argument from ignorance,
>I.E, implying that if we cannot account for this in some other
>way, it must mean not only that god exists, but the specific
>god of this specific book.
>
>And there's a massive can of worms to unpack with that.

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

>Meaning it's what humans do in order to make themselves
>believe they are doing something that can carry over into a
>life after death
>
>Religion is ritual without connection e.g. selling birds and
>other items for sacrifices/offerings in the case of the temple
>cleansing
>
>Also remarks like "you worship your father the devil" appear
>to be strongly anti religion as those words were directed at
>the religious leaders who were certainly more concerned with
>laws

Cool. But that doesn't reconcile the fact that his entire persona was crafted out of Jewsish religious texts, or the fact that he told his followers to follow all of the commandments, regularly quoted scripture, etc.

So if he was anti-religion, that's an awfully contradictory position for him to have held.

That said, the actual existence of this person is not settled history, and the supernatural claims have no good supporting evidence.

To that end, what is the relevance of the question of whether he is anti-religious?

>We may have to stop there because I think without believing in
>any kind of supreme creator everything is religion

"Everything" isn't religion, whether or not one believes in a supreme creator.

so even if
>there really was a savior for the species who could
>demonstrate such and had a roadmap for us to live by in order
>to enjoy life eternally (whatever that translates to) it would
>still be considered religion by non believers which would be
>their right (to not believe) of course

...ok. Again, relevance? What is the broader point in that?

>At least one biblical book and the epic of Gilgamesh as well
>claim the world when Noah lived was one of creation run amok
>in the form of chimeras (mixed creatures eg the minotaur,
>satyr, sphinx, etc.)
>
>The person we call Jesus is quoted as saying "in the Days Noah
>so shall it be at the coming of the son of man"
>
>We have the scientific ability to do exactly what is described
>as having happened in Noah's time by beings greater than
>ourselves and have done so
>
>Is this just a really good guess based on the scientific
>progress of 70AD?

You're leading the evidence, not being lead by it. Prophecy is perhaps the weakest of all biblical claims, for myriad reasons. As far as this "as in the days of Noah" bit, you can literally look at anything that occurred during those times and apply it to nearly any point in history, and say that that point in history was as it was in the days of Noah.

There is absolutely zero archeological evidence to support the real-world existence of the sort of creatures you mention. They exist as creatures of myth, and nothing more.

Further, you say "is this just a really good guess", yet none of that is present in the passage to which you're referring.

Matthew 24:37-39:

"For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

You formed a conclusion based on something that isn't even mentioned in the passage, and then asked "is this just a really good guess"?

So, can you better clarify your question? Because as it stands, you're incorrect in both the premise and conclusion. The conclusion you drew here is entirely baseless.

Regarding the persona of the individual like you mentioned earlier it's a faith issue. Personally I wouldn't rely on Europe's or any other non African culture to give an accurate account of the life and times of a Northeast African man. Maybe if Alex Haley had written about them but I digress.

>So if he was anti-religion, that's an awfully contradictory
>position for him to have held.
>
>That said, the actual existence of this person is not settled
>history, and the supernatural claims have no good supporting
>evidence.

If that's what you choose to believe that's cool. Cesars and plenty of 1st century scholars did believe in the existence of this person and have written about as much so how one reconciles that is up to them and not really what we were discussing.

>To that end, what is the relevance of the question of whether
>he is anti-religious?

The relevance is that it's a moot point to discuss if one does not believe in unseen intelligences greater than our own. That and what we call religion is mostly (not entirely) the illusion of action in the first place

>>At least one biblical book and the epic of Gilgamesh as well
>>claim the world when Noah lived was one of creation run amok
>>in the form of chimeras (mixed creatures eg the minotaur,
>>satyr, sphinx, etc.)
>>
>>The person we call Jesus is quoted as saying "in the Days
>Noah
>>so shall it be at the coming of the son of man"
>>
>>We have the scientific ability to do exactly what is
>described
>>as having happened in Noah's time by beings greater than
>>ourselves and have done so
>>
>>Is this just a really good guess based on the scientific
>>progress of 70AD?
>
In 70AD the book of Enoch and specifically the book of Giants (both found in the dead sea scrolls along with the more known books) and which also mentions Gilgamesh by name (who was considered a giant even in the Mesopotamian epic) -- these books would have been a part of what was studied concerning the teachings of who we call Jesus.

Most scholars agree on this if not entirely IINM.

Here is what's written in the dead sea scrolls

third fragment - 1Q23 Frag. 1 + 6

2 donkeys, two hundred asses, two hundred . . . rams of the] 3 flock, two hundred goats, two hundred 4 field from every animal, from every 5 for miscegenation

The fourth fragment - 4Q531 Frag. 2
they defiled 2 giants and monsters 3 they begot, and, behold, all 4 with its blood and by the hand of 5 which did not suffice for them and 6 and they were seeking to devour many 7 8 the monsters attacked it.

This is the time of who we call Noah and these scrolls are attributed to that time as he is mentioned in these writings as well as the writing themselves being attributed to one in his line

So when Jesus says "in the days of Noah" it is a reference to these writings which were found with those that have been incorporated into what we call the bible. Writings anyone called "rabbi" would have been more than familiar with in 33AD

There has been no other time in human history where science can and has created interspecies miscegenated life. It can not be said that there have been other times with the exception of our world of today and the time referenced in these writings regardless of it being fiction or non.

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

>But the jokes on you, because all you did was make
>yourself look like a Butt.

And is a genuinely good burn

------

12 play and 12 planets are enlighten for all the Aliens to Party and free those on the Sex Planet-maxxx

XBL: trkc21
Twitter: @tyrcasey

... "A Beautiful Struggle"
https://m.facebook.com/jamelabullock
Www.reverbnation.com/jamela

MELa
Musically.Entertaining.Lyrically.Alluring.

It's baffling that people would rather he continue to present a poor image of that ministry, than for me to call him on it.

Yeah yeah, you got a side to it, but 99% of the time most people just don't want to interact with people asking for money/street donations/a begger but I guess today was one of those days you felt like you had to prove a point of view to a stranger just cause.

Telling him you're an atheist seemed kind of weird when you could've easily just left that part out, he was ready to go to the next person but you kept going in, he said "you will soon believe again" and that seems like his response which you felt mad about in your head but he didn't take it as (which I'm glad) but I think you came in here for props about the whole interaction (which I think you don't deserve it) but that's just my two cents just like the two cents you gave that stranger who was doing what he was told by his ministry who just really might be only using him for money.

https://tinyurl.com/y4ba6hog

---------
"We in here talking about later career Prince records
& your fool ass is cruising around in a time machine
trying to collect props for a couple of sociopathic degenerates" - s.blak

>Yeah yeah, you got a side to it, but 99% of the time most
>people just don't want to interact with people asking for
>money/street donations/a begger but I guess today was one of
>those days you felt like you had to prove a point of view to a
>stranger just cause.

Right. Because people asking for change or preaching in a public place is such a rarity.

>Telling him you're an atheist seemed kind of weird when you
>could've easily just left that part out

Except I said it to make the point that I didn't need the preaching, while noting that this was what he presented as his purpose.

>he was ready to go to
>the next person but you kept going in, he said "you will soon
>believe again"

Yes, we had a conversation. He walked back toward me after I noted that he asked fornchange, but offered none of the witnessing he said he was also there for.

Not exactly running away.

>you felt
>mad about in your head

You're projecting, and wrong.

>I think you came in here for props about the whole
>interaction

You think I came here....for...props?

Here? For props? On THIS of all interactions? Do you hear yourself?

Because that's one of the most absurd assumptions made in a post that contains words written by Case One. Yea, that's saying something.

It was, IMO, an interesting interaction that, as I stated in the OP, I'd probably do differently. Perhaps not at all.

And I value thoughtful perspective, which I sometimes get here on OKP. Thus far, not much of that in here, though few posts on any subject that are dominated by case and legs is pretty lacking of thoughtful and genuine perspective.

>stranger who was doing what he was told by his ministry who
>just really might be only using him for money.

Maybe, but doubtful. It's hilarious that those trying super duper hard to twist this into something malicious on my part are giving neither him nor the ministry the benefit of the doubt as far as their intentions, while I've been pretty open to the notion him having good intentions despite poor execution.

Your two cents aren't even in the ball park of an accurate or even thoughtful assessment.

______________________________________

Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days

>Yeah yeah, you got a side to it, but 99% of the time most
>people just don't want to interact with people asking for
>money/street donations/a begger but I guess today was one of
>those days you felt like you had to prove a point of view to a
>stranger just cause.
>
>Telling him you're an atheist seemed kind of weird when you
>could've easily just left that part out, he was ready to go to
>the next person but you kept going in, he said "you will soon
>believe again" and that seems like his response which you felt
>mad about in your head but he didn't take it as (which I'm
>glad) but I think you came in here for props about the whole
>interaction (which I think you don't deserve it) but that's
>just my two cents just like the two cents you gave that
>stranger who was doing what he was told by his ministry who
>just really might be only using him for money.
>
>
>


.
.
“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” ~ Albert Einstein

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

Your sig has two ridiculously out of context quotes that, when not read in the vacuum you've presented them in, butnin the full context of the statements from which they were pulled, tell a verg different story.

And you try to rail against those who are stronger than you.
.
.
“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” ~ Albert Einstein

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

Faith is quite the opposite of courage.

Courage is founded on and in faith. Every person in the military that follows an order into a theater of war does so not based on the order alone or patriotism. The actions are based on the faith (in training, in integrity, in the cause, etc) that gives them the courage to move forward and execute the order. Faith is the seed of Courage. The same applies to Christianity and having faith in the Lord God. This is why strong Christians are courageous. I doubt that you've ever served anyone or rushed to the aid of anyone. That's why you're so miserable, you don't have the courage to move past the issues that hurt you because you lack the faith that is required.



.
.
“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” ~ Albert Einstein

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

>Every person in the
>military that follows an order into a theater of war does so
>not based on the order alone or patriotism. The actions are
>based on the faith (in training, in integrity, in the cause,
>etc) that gives them the courage to move forward and execute
>the order.

Cool story. We were discussing faith from a religious standpoint, and you respond with an equivocation to something else entirely.

Further, it's a loose and sloppy analogy. These are entirely different usages of the word "faith", not to mention the way you kinda-sorta-not-really tied it to "courage".

What's funny is, regardless of how poor this analogy is- and it is terrible- what you did was try to make a case for courage stemming from faith. Not faith coming from courage.

It's a weird and convoluted tangent you're on.

>Christianity and having faith in the Lord God. This is why
>strong Christians are courageous.

Yes, the strong belief that dying is actually a good thing because it sends you to your concept of heaven can certainly lead to a certain amount of courage.

None of thisnhas anything to do with wehether or not any god actually exists, much less the sadistic narcissistic deity of the bible.

I doubt that you've ever
>served anyone or rushed to the aid of anyone.

Oh....k.... how does this tie in to....

That's why
>you're so miserable, you don't have the courage to move past
>the issues that hurt you because you lack the faith that is
>required.

^^^^and.....boom, back to these vague references to "issues that have hurt me", saying I'm miserable, as though any of that has anything to do with whether a god exists.

.
.
“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” ~ Albert Einstein

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

Go out of your way to create a debate, then devolve into nothing but name callong and personal allusions instead of engaging on the subject.

Where's all that light, joy, love, etc you're supposed to be brimming with as a born again, spirit-filled servant of the lord?

Because what you're doing would be frowned upon by any christian with a modicum of integrity.

And Jesus certainly wouldn't approve.

for no reason.


.
.
“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” ~ Albert Einstein

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

i think your first instinct that it sounded like a scam was correct

--
Sometimes you have to look reality in the face and say 'No!'
-Ben (Reaper)

If you need any help, don't. Hesitate to ask.

The bucket had the ministry name on it.

Seems a little elaborate for that. But it could have been something akin to the "buy this comically large pixie stick to keep kids off drugs" thing.

Anti-gentrification, cheap alcohol & trying to look pretty in our twilight posting years (c) Big Reg
http://Tupreme.com

You accosted dude on some "you should be witnessing to me bro", but then you tell him you're an ex-christian and atheist who will never believe again, which means his instinct/intuition/or whatever was correct to just walk away from you. He could've been witnessing to others but just not to you, in particular, because the "spirit led him not to" as some christians might say.

You seem to want to present yourself as a stand-up guy, and that's cool, so I'll say that it would have been more honest of you to tell him to hold on because you wanted to share some secular, every day wisdom with him... that you don't think all that christian and bible stuff is necessary. That's essentially what your purpose was, but you didn't own it and chose to pass it off on him by calling him a dishonest rep for the ministry.

~
~
~
~
~
Days like this I miss Sha Mecca

for, I dunno, supposedly disrespecting someone's beliefs?

when his sig intentionally misrepresents the views of an atheist who's been dead for over 60 years.

>when his sig intentionally misrepresents the views of an
>atheist who's been dead for over 60 years.

Yep. In fact I pointed that out in this very thread.... and his response was that I lacked the courage to have faith.

His very next response was that I was a coward for not having faith, and some meandering nonsense about the military, for some reason.

I went there with a huge, neon sign with a giant,flashing arrow on me and a bullhorn asking for any theists within line of sight or earshot to come to me, present themselves as there to both witness and to solicit donations, but to only solicit donations, just so I could get that small opening to "stick my chest out".

Yep. My first thought after I got off work wasn't "I'm on E, let me get some gas and get home".

It was absolutely, "where can I find a theist to "stick my chest out" toward, and then do nothing that remotely looks like sticking my chest out".

and there’s nothing wrong with asking for funds without “witnessing” if the cause seems right.

Aside from that your reasoning for no longer believing is a dumb one. I hear too much about people placing their entire belief system based on faith. People are not told to follow blindly. What trumps all things is LOVE. If a person doesn’t have that then they have nothing... not even faith. God sends his blessings on the just and the unjust. The only thing that I place faith in is that God will reward those who love Him and love their neighbor (friend or foe).

Day 12 - no weed

the longest I've gone in 10 years was
7 months (2009)
40 days (2018)

You can do this.

It helps
... "A Beautiful Struggle"
https://m.facebook.com/jamelabullock
Www.reverbnation.com/jamela

MELa
Musically.Entertaining.Lyrically.Alluring.

Glad you got his message, even in the wrong post

not prove a point to you

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

.
.
“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.” ~ Albert Einstein

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

You've exhibited so much love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.

Way to show us all what Jesus would do.