Yup. I said it.
Think about it hard.
Think about it real hard.

Yes apart of it stems from his passing. Yes unlike Jimi there will be many artists who will be able to surpass him (some who already have). But he laid down a musical blueprint like Jimi. And in his relatively short career left a legacy of music both official and unofficial that will be studied and listened to for the years to come.

Do the knowledge.
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If he changed it from your stance, what was it before and what is it now?

Hip Hop evolves so much and so fast(from a sound perspective), but it hasn't evoled in regards to content... I believe the Jimi of Hip Hop hasn't happened yet, though we've had a glimpse here and there--> Pac, Andre 3000, Lauryn. I think the Jimi of hip hop will change the lyrical content vs the sound... at least I hope so.

>If he changed it from your stance, what was it before and
>what is it now?

Are you limiting hip-hop to what is popular?

He made the instrument of hip-hop a forefront player, where as before it was limited to playing a supporting role. There were people who did/attempted to do it before, but it became with Dilla.
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Rock n Roll?

Dilla DID NOT change Hip Hop. And no this isn't about what's popular, bcuz we all know how OKP feels about popularity. You really gave me a Yoda response to the question BTW. What Jimi brought to rock n roll FAR exceeded what Dilla brought to producing IMO. Dilla has a cult following. He shouldn't be mentioned in the same post as Jimi. But we ain't gonna agree on this shit, I already know it.

>What Jimi
>brought to rock n roll FAR exceeded what Dilla brought to
>producing IMO.

Can you give me a Yoda response illustrating that?

>Dilla has a cult following. He shouldn't be
>mentioned in the same post as Jimi. But we ain't gonna agree
>on this shit, I already know it.

It's funny how cats like to remember Jimi. I'm assuming you're black. And based on that assumption back when Jimi was alive you would have been saying something to the affect of "Jimi has a cult following." Decades later though you're ready to openly embrace his legacy as untouchable particularly as it relates to not every having to take black rock seriously because you know, no one could be better than Jimi, and besides Black Rock has a 'cult following.'

Yeah I'm overgeneralizing and making assumptions about you, but fuck it. You ain't said nothing worth more than its weight in salt, and considering this is a messageboard...

YODA!!!

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Dilla to Tchaikovsky if you want to, it's not gonna change the fact that Dilla's overall influence of the sound of Hip Hop is limited. Kanye has had more influence imo. Outside of OKP and a few underground heads I know, Dilla is pretty anonymous. You might as well compare Cody Chestnutt to Jimi at this point.

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http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=17&topic_id=104783&mesg_id=104783&page=6

I've treaded this road before.
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Sorry I gotta hang you out to dry on that one.
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abilty to make good music vs. technical music

I've heard just about everything Dilla has put out and I still give
his catalogue a 4/10 at BEST. Does he chop up and create interesting
sounds, sure, but does that mean it sounds good--> no. For every 1 Dilla track I like, there are about 5 that I don't. But if you're in to his sound, there's nothing wrong with that... you just hear something I don't.

>But if you're in to his sound, there's nothing wrong with
>that... you just hear something I don't.

I'm not *that* into his sound.

But I am 'into' a lot of the music that has resulted from his influence and it has forced me to go back and do his work justice. I still am not at ?uesto levels of awe with it, but I understand the fruits based on the tree he established. Theses fruits have spawned new 'genres' that have taken life of their own. That in and of itself is on par with hendrix (note on par not the same). Hendrix redefined a genre. Dilla spawned new ones. So to go back on your question, did he even have to change 'hip-hop'? I contend in a few years 'hip-hop' will have to change itself to account for him and his spawns.

Think about it.

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>I understand the fruits based on the tree he established.
>Theses fruits have spawned new 'genres' that have taken life
>of their own. That in and of itself is on par with hendrix
>(note on par not the same). Hendrix redefined a genre. Dilla
>spawned new ones.

What new genres of music are you referring to?

>What new genres of music are you referring to?

Time will tell how they play out but considering some hip-hop heads would separate them from hip-hop and thrust them into electronic music categorically, while some electronica would categorically thrust them distinguishably from electronic music as hip-hop is telling that there is a newness about them distinct from either classification. That said as I said above I think hip-hop will end up changing its definition to include them in the future.
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>>What new genres of music are you referring to?
>
>Time will tell how they play out but considering some hip-hop
>heads would separate them from hip-hop and thrust them into
>electronic music categorically, while some electronica would
>categorically thrust them distinguishably from electronic
>music as hip-hop is telling that there is a newness about them
>distinct from either classification. That said as I said
>above I think hip-hop will end up changing its definition to
>include them in the future.


Who is the "them" that you are referring to? I need you to give names and examples.

Exile being considered instrumental hip-hop. Nosaj Thing not being considered hip-hop. Both fall under the influence of Dilla. Doing distinctly different things. And yet agreement about how they should be classified is iffy.
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>Exile being considered instrumental hip-hop. Nosaj Thing not
>being considered hip-hop. Both fall under the influence of
>Dilla. Doing distinctly different things. And yet agreement
>about how they should be classified is iffy.


Well I can see why Nosaj Thing is not considered Hip Hop. From what I have heard, there are way too many electronica elements, sounds and production techniques employed to classify that music as Hip Hop. The sound is just way too trippy and not in a soulful way at all.

As far as Exile goes, though I like some of what I have heard, I'm not hearing anything too different from what Dilla was doing when he was alive. Unfortunately, that is the case with alot of these cats who proudly claim they were influenced by Dilla. They don't seem to be building on his legacy at all. To my ears, many of them are only imitating and copying...often times in a very bad and mediocre way. I'm not hearing the progression within the Hip Hop context at all.

>Well I can see why Nosaj Thing is not considered Hip Hop. From
>what I have heard, there are way too many electronica
>elements, sounds and production techniques employed to
>classify that music as Hip Hop. The sound is just way too
>trippy and not in a soulful way at all.

Nosaj Thing is hip-hop. He's not just hip-hop, but he is hip-hop. One day hip-hop will be able to embrace it (especially if he goes from remixing rappers to working with them). Fortunately he doesn't HAVE to get the full embrace to keep doing his thing.

>As far as Exile goes, though I like some of what I have heard,
>I'm not hearing anything too different from what Dilla was
>doing when he was alive. Unfortunately, that is the case with
>alot of these cats who proudly claim they were influenced by
>Dilla. They don't seem to be building on his legacy at all. To
>my ears, many of them are only imitating and copying...often
>times in a very bad and mediocre way. I'm not hearing the
>progression within the Hip Hop context at all.

There is newness that Exile brings to the table, and a handful of others. I don't see him in the imitators category at all. The fact that he also has live chops alone is an addition. But technique wise he's got somethings. Getting the average fan to talk about them is another story. I'd articulate them here, but not without listening again to point out specifics. Unfortunately can't do that right now.

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>Nosaj Thing is hip-hop. He's not just hip-hop, but he is
>hip-hop. One day hip-hop will be able to embrace it
>(especially if he goes from remixing rappers to working with
>them). Fortunately he doesn't HAVE to get the full embrace to
>keep doing his thing.

lol...He may be "Hip Hop" but I'm not hearing that prominently in his musical output. It's kind of like how you have some of these indie rock bands who utilize certain Hip Hop production techniques (like big heavy sampled drum sounds for example) but that doesn't mean they are making Hip Hop music. When I hear his music I don't immediately think "yeah that's Hip Hop" moreso than I think "yeah that is Hip Hop inspired". I think the audience for his style of music is limited. I don't think he will be embraced on a larger scale (not necessarily meaning mainstream popularity) until he can produce music that can fit into the current Hip Hop context while still being undeniably progressive. His shit doesn't "bang" nor is it particularly "soulful". Hip Hop music tends to lean in either one of those directions. Thus, he has to show he can be consistent doing one of those two styles of Hip Hop music, with his own progressive spin on it, before he will begin to be embraced...if being embraced within Hip Hop is even a goal of his.


>There is newness that Exile brings to the table, and a handful
>of others. I don't see him in the imitators category at all.
>The fact that he also has live chops alone is an addition.
>But technique wise he's got somethings. Getting the average
>fan to talk about them is another story. I'd articulate them
>here, but not without listening again to point out specifics.
>Unfortunately can't do that right now.


That's cool. Perhaps at another time then.

>lol...He may be "Hip Hop" but I'm not hearing that prominently
>in his musical output. It's kind of like how you have some of
>these indie rock bands who utilize certain Hip Hop production
>techniques (like big heavy sampled drum sounds for example)
>but that doesn't mean they are making Hip Hop music.

Why hip-hop sucks in 2010? © DJ Shadow
The notion that "hip-hop" is anything more than technique.
^^^ bait^^^

>I think
>the audience for his style of music is limited.

LOL!!! His audience is broader than a lot of 'hip-hop' cats.

>I don't think
>he will be embraced on a larger scale (not necessarily meaning
>mainstream popularity) until he can produce music that can fit
>into the current Hip Hop context while still being undeniably
>progressive.

He doesn't need to prove himself to hip-hop.

>His shit doesn't "bang" nor is it particularly
>"soulful".

I'd suggest you listen more. He makes shit that bangs. He also makes shit that is soulful (without soul samples). Sometimes in the same song. Not always. Like true hip-hop he has no limits. Remember when DJ's were spinning punk shit. What that wasn't hip-hop? Punk don't bang nor is it soulful. A lot of Bomb Squad lacks 'soulfulness' and what?

>Hip Hop music tends to lean in either one of those
>directions.

Myopic hip-hop does. But that's boring and lifeless.

^^^ more bait ^^^

>Thus, he has to show he can be consistent doing
>one of those two styles of Hip Hop music, with his own
>progressive spin on it, before he will begin to be
>embraced...if being embraced within Hip Hop is even a goal of
>his.

Again, he don't need hip-hop. But compare the original Drake "Forever" to the Nosaj Thing remix and you'll see that perhaps hip-hop could use him.


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>LOL!!! His audience is broader than a lot of 'hip-hop' cats.

How so?


>He doesn't need to prove himself to hip-hop.

If you want to be embraced by Hip Hop then yes you need to prove yourself to that community that what you are doing is worthy of attention.



>I'd suggest you listen more. He makes shit that bangs. He
>also makes shit that is soulful (without soul samples).
>Sometimes in the same song. Not always. Like true hip-hop he
>has no limits. Remember when DJ's were spinning punk shit.
>What that wasn't hip-hop? Punk don't bang nor is it soulful.
>A lot of Bomb Squad lacks 'soulfulness' and what?


Perhaps we have different tastes regarding what "bangs" and what is "soulful". Can you point out some examples of tracks by him that "bang" or are "soulful" to you?

Some DJ's were spinning punk records yes, but they weren't calling it Hip Hop. lol


As far as the Bomb Squad goes, it depends on what era you are talking about. Their work with Public Enemy and Ice Cube was at times both soulful AND banging. Nowadays they are more into Dub Step but I don't see Shocklee trying to pass it off as Hip Hop though.


>Again, he don't need hip-hop. But compare the original Drake
>"Forever" to the Nosaj Thing remix and you'll see that perhaps
>hip-hop could use him.

Well I never said that he needed Hip Hop but you seem to be implying that he wants some kind of Hip Hop acceptance. Thus, I gave my opinion on what he needs to do to get that. *shrugs*

As far as the Drake remix...you're talking about this right

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMNHLkm1WeY

The only thing that even makes that even remotely Hip Hop is the fact that Drake is on it! lol It's okay I guess but eh...

>>LOL!!! His audience is broader than a lot of 'hip-hop'
>cats.
>
>How so?

I could be wrong but I think he could outsell a venue than a grip of hip-hop beatmakers, and a fair share of MC's.

>
>>He doesn't need to prove himself to hip-hop.
>
>If you want to be embraced by Hip Hop then yes you need to
>prove yourself to that community that what you are doing is
>worthy of attention.

I never said he wants to be embraced. Should he be. Yes. Does he need or want to, nope.

>Perhaps we have different tastes regarding what "bangs" and
>what is "soulful". Can you point out some examples of tracks
>by him that "bang" or are "soulful" to you?

I'd say that Forever remix bangs and is soulful, by example, but you'd disagree. *shrug*

>Some DJ's were spinning punk records yes, but they weren't
>calling it Hip Hop. lol

*record scratch* Grandmaster Flash et al are all looking at you sideways.

>As far as the Bomb Squad goes, it depends on what era you are
>talking about. Their work with Public Enemy and Ice Cube was
>at times both soulful AND banging.

At times. But at times neither. Still hip-hop though.

>Well I never said that he needed Hip Hop but you seem to be
>implying that he wants some kind of Hip Hop acceptance. Thus,
>I gave my opinion on what he needs to do to get that.
>*shrugs*

Nah I'm implying hip-hop needs to embrace him. He don't need nothing, really. He doing fine.

>As far as the Drake remix...you're talking about this right
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMNHLkm1WeY
>
>The only thing that even makes that even remotely Hip Hop is
>the fact that Drake is on it! lol It's okay I guess but eh...

The drums!!

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>I could be wrong but I think he could outsell a venue than a
>grip of hip-hop beatmakers, and a fair share of MC's.

The operative word being "could". There are alot of cats that theoretically "could" but will they? Until he does...eh. lol



>I never said he wants to be embraced. Should he be. Yes.
>Does he need or want to, nope.


Okay.


>I'd say that Forever remix bangs and is soulful, by example,
>but you'd disagree. *shrug*


Yikes. lol I definitely disagree!


>*record scratch* Grandmaster Flash et al are all looking at
>you sideways.

Well give me some examples then...and please don't say Blondie or The Beastie Boys! lol


>At times. But at times neither. Still hip-hop though.


At times neither soulful or banging...huh? That's revisionism sir!


>Nah I'm implying hip-hop needs to embrace him. He don't need
>nothing, really. He doing fine.


Okay.


>The drums!!

Eh...it didn't move me but the fact you emphatically said "the drums" highlights an earlier point I made referencing some indie rock bands. Just because someone uses a known element of Hip Hop production doesn't mean what they are doing is also Hip Hop. *shrugs*

And just to bring it back to Jimi for a second...Jimi Hendrix revolutionized Rock music yes, but what he was doing was still within the confines of what makes up that genre. He was being progressive while remaining true to what people would deem the roots of the music.

I'm not hearing that with Nosaj at all...

>Well I can see why Nosaj Thing is not considered Hip Hop. From
>what I have heard, there are way too many electronica
>elements, sounds and production techniques employed to
>classify that music as Hip Hop. The sound is just way too
>trippy and not in a soulful way at all.


who says hiphop has to be soulful? is eminem soulful?
the man remixed drake. thats hiphop





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"when you apply his techniques from Donuts to other types of music besides soul/R&B, the possibilites are endless."- Small Pro

out

I mean true disciples of Dilla.

the notion of a true disciple implies 'studied under' not just 'studied'. they don't exist for either artist.

if you refine your request to something that exists i might be able to comply, but depending upon why you're asking you may have reached a conclusion before i can respond.
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After his first album or after his fifth? Tenth?

Many of those who could qualify for Dilla are still on their first or second album, as such it would be easy to shoot them down now.

That said search the boards for the Nosaj Thing post.
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was a hybrid of funk(parliment), rock(Jimi), and soul(Sly)... and I believe the infusion of all those sounds were superbly done. His live show is purely Jimi and James(more Jimi IMO). Obviously his style/appearance was Jimi all day. For You and Prince were kinda similar. Dirty Mind imo was Prince finding himself and his sound, and ultimately began to create his own brand.

a lot more style over substance/technique to the influence as a whole. I mean are there any Jimi-esque solos from Prince that really measure up? Did Prince adopt Hendrix's rhythm chops?
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there.

Jimi's style costarred to his substance. Even those who try to minimize his overall influence try to focus on the hocus pocus stage and guitar tricks, but they can NEVER discredit the sound. What came from Jimi's guitar was pure soul music in a rock n roll format.

>Jimi's style costarred to his substance. Even those who try to
>minimize his overall influence try to focus on the hocus pocus
>stage and guitar tricks, but they can NEVER discredit the
>sound.

IMHO the definitive part of Hendrix usually goes understated and his superior rhythm technique. And a big separation point for him and Dilla is that pretty much no one (maybe Ernie Isley) ever really could match up to that. However copyable, thoug Dilla drums are on par with it. I should say, a lot of folk do good imitation but few actually can really get it down to a tee. And on par with Hendrix, a lot of folk think its 'the drums' but a lot of it has to do with the hi-hats which most imitators ignore completely ala Hendrix's rhythm work.

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able to capture him yet. Once I heard Jimi, I could listen to anything he'd ever done, because it made sense. It took me listening to The Wind Cries Mary to really start paying attention, but when I finally bought Axis and heard the intro to Little Wing, I was with him. I haven't heard Dilla's Little Wing yet.

I think Dilla's peers that really appreciate him saw: him work, create, the passion, the pain... they loved him. To them, there may
never be another Dilla... likewise, to Jimi's peers, there will never be another Jimi.

:)
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nm

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"when you apply his techniques from Donuts to other types of music besides soul/R&B, the possibilites are endless."- Small Pro

I came into this topic without a yay or nay opinion. I have never heard anyone compare Dilla to Hendrix so I am asking questions out of a genuine interest in the topic.

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as would mike hampton & ernie isley.

just because they didn't study under hendrix doesn't mean that they're not disciples of jimi.

that's like saying just because mark washington didn't study under larry graham, he's not a disciple of him or his style.

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Its just saying that no one has fucking revolutionized Hip Hop really all at once like Hendrix did to R&R. If you had to pick "Who was the most innovative in Hip Hop" Dilla would be up there at the top

Especially considering what came after, and the (sic) state of rock today?

Serious question.

What are the elements of Hendrix that we still here today?
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The techniques, Hendrix was innovating so hard on all of his albums. His first album was basically taking the outdated R&R of the time and adding psychedelic flavor. The second two albums created a lot of techniques that later became standard. I remember I read a post by quest talking about how he wishes he could've seen what Hendrix would've done today (basically stating that being as he blew people's minds innovation-wise back in the late 60s, with the technology out today.....). This is just counting studio-innovation, not even considering his live act and his beautiful mentality when it came to life, the world and music displayed in his interviews. I get choked up watching those.

How did it trickle down into the music we now refer to as Rock N Roll?

Best you can pull from Axis is that he invented the phaser, but the phaser isn't a definitive sound of Rock N Roll.

What I'm asking you to articulate is how Hendrix techniques became standards in Rock N Roll.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBCsVNg5QVI

LOL!!

That really captures what I mean.
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after he came to the scene. That's all there is to it. He took music to places people never thought it could go.

Note: since I've asked 'nicely' more than once now, forgive me if i 'go in'

Don't run up in *my post with hendrix in the subject line* (as opposed to my hendrix post as this isn't necessarily one of those) trying to school me on hendrix. I know the story. Not only that I'm one of those cats that gets real sensitive around his name. I respect him in the highest high and wouldn't put words to mouth that I think would tarnish his name. I wouldn't raise someone to his level without thoroughly thinking through how I'm doing so. It's something folk coming in here with there one liners are taking for granted. You know how johnbook is a bout The Beatles? That's how I am about Hendrix. And from all angles too. Live, studio, personal life. You want to know about it, I can probably tell ya or tell ya who knows.

So there's no need to tell me to do my 'homework' especially considering I know how you 'do yours'. (<<< that was the jab at you. look around i take jabs at everyone don't take it personal).

Now let's start over. Can you articulate how Jimi's influence has trickled down to the rock n roll we see today?

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So many times at so many things, LOL. What the fuck is the point of me continuing this conversation, at all. If you know everything about Hendrix (lol like you can 'claim' another human for yourself lmfao) then why am I even having this conversation with you? I actually had a third answer written for you but this whole topic you are just so up your own ass. Take a walk or something man. Not just music, the entire world was effected by the messages of freedom and peace present in those solos -- the concept that anything could be possible. Hendrix was bigger than music and you asking for whether or not Rock musicians today have music that wouldn't have existed / did not have some sort of technique used by Hendrix from the 60s to establish this pseudo-definition in your mind is just hilarious. L.O.L. You claim you are a huge hendrix fan, but I'm not sure if you really got the point of his music.

OH SHIT HERE COMES A FLAMESFEST WHICH GUESS WHAT I COULDNT REALLY CARE ABOUT LOLZ. This topic is so fucking stupid. Real talk if you are looking for the type of answer you are looking for, Aphex Twin comes way closer. Aphex Twin has had ridiculous impact of instrumental music. Also, I'd point to Autechre too. Dilla was an incredible producer and the music he made had a certain approach to it that, even though it wasn't -technically- on the level of AFX it had elements to it that no one else had really gotten close to (except perhaps Madlib). Regardless though, there have been so few people who could qualify for "another generation's hendrix". To even imply that Dilla is a Hendrix of this generation -- to imply that any band is the _____ of the modern era is such flawed logic. Dilla is the Dilla of this generation, jesus.

>So many times at so many things, LOL. What the fuck is the
>point of me continuing this conversation, at all.

It's good practice for in depth discussion of music. I reply in kind. You post good I'll post good. You post dismissive I'll post dismissive. This is my M.O.

>If you know
>everything about Hendrix (lol like you can 'claim' another
>human for yourself lmfao) then why am I even having this
>conversation with you?

1) Because it's not just about Hendrix.
2) Because you wonder how someone like me could make such a claim.
3) Because you realize I'm not bat-shit crazy so if you engage it you may understand the perspective even if you don't agree.

>I actually had a third answer written
>for you but this whole topic you are just so up your own ass.

I'll fall back to my M.O. on this one. People come at me with dismissive out the ass talk, I'll reply in kind. When it goes in depth, I'm right there too.

>Take a walk or something man.

LOL!!! I took two today.

>Not just music, the entire
>world was effected by the messages of freedom and peace
>present in those solos -- the concept that anything could be
>possible.

Try to present that in musical terms not etheral terms. And could the whole world articulate the same sentiments, or are you hyperbolizing?

>Hendrix was bigger than music and you asking for
>whether or not Rock musicians today have music that wouldn't
>have existed / did not have some sort of technique used by
>Hendrix from the 60s to establish this pseudo-definition in
>your mind is just hilarious.

So much bigger than music you can't discuss the music? You can only go to these godlike qualities that make everything else unattainable. Hey man, I worship Jimi as a God too. If you want we can do a whole other post about that, but right here right now I want to talk about the music. Musicall techniques.

>L.O.L. You claim you are a huge
>hendrix fan, but I'm not sure if you really got the point of
>his music.

I wonder if you got it or were just blinded by the godliness of it. Just like some Dilla fans you want to heap on piles of musical praise but cannot back it up with music.

>This topic is so fucking stupid.

LOL!!! Don't make it stupider. Bring the music. I know you have it in you.

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That talk about Hendrix. Let's discuss how innovative Animal Collective are, hmmm? Frankly, I'm not really pissed at you or anything, I think you are being a bit unfair to me though. Because from my perspective I gave you 2 and 1/2 serious replies and you dismissed them. What he did was amazing and it influenced every musician post-Hendrix. Everyone has an opinion on the man. You say I should see things from your perspective, a more technical perspective when frankly while I comprehend said perspective it is not relevant to me. When I try to discuss my perspective you dismiss it. You dismiss that bit I say as being "hyperbolic", and to that I dismiss this discussion. Good day sir!

Name the modern rock artists that emulate that.
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if they in fact are.

>He made the instrument of hip-hop a forefront player, where as
>before it was limited to playing a supporting role. There
>were people who did/attempted to do it before, but it became
>with Dilla.

What exactly do you mean by this statement here?

So far I don't see a strong case being made for Dilla being the Hendrix of our generation but I'll wait and see what else the OP brings forth as evidence.

>>He made the instrument of hip-hop a forefront player, where
>as
>>before it was limited to playing a supporting role.

The instrument of hip-hop = production. If you think just of the beattape phenomena as a whole, yes beattapes existed long before dilla, but as a testament of a producer's work. Producers may have shared tapes prior to that, but the mark of the producer was in who had bought those beats not in th etapes themselves. How many beattapes were released last year. It's literally impossible to count. You can counter that with how many of them sold but that's just the surface of the influence.

From out of the beattape phenom you get producers comfortable enough, in a hip-hop context to see themselves as the focal point of a project without the need to get a bunch of MC's to validate their work. Yes there were artists who had done instrumental hip-hop prior, and folk outside of the genre who could today be classified under the umbrella (sic), but it became phenomenality (lol) post dilla.

And that's still just surface.

He laid out the blueprint technique for sampling to escape the legal realms. <<< This is foreshadowing I won't be debating the point yet.

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Madlib is the Hendrix if Hendrix lived of our Generation?

Ehhhh.... I don't know. I kind of agree with that. Madlib is a beast. That said a lot of it is consequential with him as well. Some artists have just as much material but not the channels/desire to put it all out the way Lib does. That said, we wouldn't have Dilla without Lib. Fa sho!!!
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>The instrument of hip-hop = production.

So you're saying that before Dilla there wasn't any emphasis on having solid production at the forefront?




If you think just of
>the beattape phenomena as a whole, yes beattapes existed long
>before dilla, but as a testament of a producer's work.
>Producers may have shared tapes prior to that, but the mark of
>the producer was in who had bought those beats not in th
>etapes themselves. How many beattapes were released last
>year. It's literally impossible to count. You can counter
>that with how many of them sold but that's just the surface of
>the influence.


I think that has more to do with the influence of the internet than Dilla.



>From out of the beattape phenom you get producers comfortable
>enough, in a hip-hop context to see themselves as the focal
>point of a project without the need to get a bunch of MC's to
>validate their work. Yes there were artists who had done
>instrumental hip-hop prior, and folk outside of the genre who
>could today be classified under the umbrella (sic), but it
>became phenomenality (lol) post dilla.

Isn't that the foundation of Hip Hop though? Where the DJ (often times the producer) was at the forefront of the music? I also don't see the widespread phenomenom you are referring to regarding beattapes as a showcase being something new. I see cats using the internet to showcase/sell their tracks, which makes this aspect of Hip Hop seem more visible BUT cats have been showcasing/selling their tracks long before Dilla.



>And that's still just surface.

I'm waiting for you to get deep though! lol



>He laid out the blueprint technique for sampling to escape the
>legal realms. <<< This is foreshadowing I won't be debating
>the point yet.

I would say Premo laid that blueprint before Dilla imo.

>>The instrument of hip-hop = production.
>
>So you're saying that before Dilla there wasn't any emphasis
>on having solid production at the forefront?

Absolutely not. I'm saying that even when it was at the forefront it was still as a supporting role. It's like the basketball assist. The assist itself could be bigger than the shot it spawned, but it's still just an assist. Dilla drove to the basket in a role reserved for the assist. Not the first again, but....

>I think that has more to do with the influence of the internet
>than Dilla.

I can see this point, except for, where are the Pete Rock beattpaes? The Premo beattapes? Etc. Anyone before him could have been in that spot, but it was his work that made it so. Consequential sure, but nonetheless.

>Isn't that the foundation of Hip Hop though? Where the DJ
>(often times the producer) was at the forefront of the music?
>I also don't see the widespread phenomenom you are referring
>to regarding beattapes as a showcase being something new. I
>see cats using the internet to showcase/sell their tracks,
>which makes this aspect of Hip Hop seem more visible BUT cats
>have been showcasing/selling their tracks long before Dilla.

DJ hasn't been at the forefront in a long time. And neither was the producer. GumDrops is right though there are a lot of producers that had more of an impact on the masses. And made a name for themselves that surpassed the artist they worked with, but they were still making assists. Consequentially, Dilla took it a step further.

>>He laid out the blueprint technique for sampling to escape
>the
>>legal realms. <<< This is foreshadowing I won't be debating
>>the point yet.
>
>I would say Premo laid that blueprint before Dilla imo.

You could say Paul C. or The Bomb Squad before that too. But there's something else in what Dilla did. But again I'm not going to talk about this much here.


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>Absolutely not. I'm saying that even when it was at the
>forefront it was still as a supporting role. It's like the
>basketball assist. The assist itself could be bigger than the
>shot it spawned, but it's still just an assist. Dilla drove
>to the basket in a role reserved for the assist. Not the
>first again, but....

You need to give concrete examples to prove your point because you already have agreed that he wasn't the first to put production at the forefront. You have to emphatically show what he did that puts him in a special category by himself.



>I can see this point, except for, where are the Pete Rock
>beattpaes? The Premo beattapes? Etc. Anyone before him could
>have been in that spot, but it was his work that made it so.
>Consequential sure, but nonetheless.


Did Pete Rock and Premo even give out beat tapes? I never worked with them so I can't say with any certainty but I can tell you that Beatminerz used to give out "beat tapes" to artists they were interested in working with. Just about every producer I worked with back in the day has done this at some point in time as well. When I was working as an A&R for a record company I used to get beat tapes in the mail every month from cats who were looking for production work. I also know some cats didn't like to give out tapes because they feared people would steal their ideas. From what I know this still is a concern today with many producers. Perhaps Premo and PR fall into this category.



>DJ hasn't been at the forefront in a long time. And neither
>was the producer. GumDrops is right though there are a lot of
>producers that had more of an impact on the masses. And made a
>name for themselves that surpassed the artist they worked
>with, but they were still making assists. Consequentially,
>Dilla took it a step further.


You have yet to explain how he took it a step further though. I think his death has given him a level of mystique that he wouldn't have received if he didn't pass so young. As you know, this isn't an uncommon thing within music. I remember some of his friends (who happened to be famous artists lol) talking about the influence he had on them musically but that is to be expected since they personally knew him and worked with him closely. What I think happened though is that because those friends garner a certain level of media attention, hipster outlets and certain Hip Hop circles latched onto that genuine mourning as some kind of "movement" as it was the "cool" and "trendy" thing to do at the time. I think alot of these so called Dilla fans who now sing his praises are highly suspect though as far as their motivations for doing so. Alot of it comes across as disingenuous in my eyes.


>You could say Paul C. or The Bomb Squad before that too. But
>there's something else in what Dilla did. But again I'm not
>going to talk about this much here.

No problem.

>I can see this point, except for, where are the Pete Rock
>beattpaes? The Premo beattapes? Etc. Anyone before him could
>have been in that spot, but it was his work that made it so.
>Consequential sure, but nonetheless.

It was the bootlegging of his work that made it so. There are pete rock beattapes, but theyre not widespread. and they were "out" before internet bootlegging went rampant




-------------------------
"when you apply his techniques from Donuts to other types of music besides soul/R&B, the possibilites are endless."- Small Pro

>
>Are you limiting hip-hop to what is popular?
>

RUN DMC

Too many contemporaries. Pac being the closest with the output, and for a while he held an influence, but that influence, like with Biggie is more style than substance, though people will hate my saying that. It's not that they as artists were more style over substance, but what people picked up on from them definitely was.
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when i said sure there were others that did it before dilla. Premo did a lot of shit Dilla gets credit for, and was regarded as a focal point of the music he made and yet he still couldn't cross the line to the forefront as effectively. But he doesn't have to worry about this title, he'll probably be the best solo producer of all time when the history books are written. His legacy lives on.

Shorter response - he's too old.
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Are black americans who have albums out that you can buy. Past that, I can't think of a single thing that ties them together.

career too long, filled with too many ups and downs. one of the most impactful things about jimi's career is what he was able to do in such a short time. one to one, dilla's career is too long too. But at the same time I think he passed at the same relative jump off point jimi was at. It'll be hard for anyone who's sustained a long career to measure up because the longer your career the more apt for peaks and valleys.
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I'm a fan, but his reach is not that far. Hell, even the revisionist hipster love he got postmortem has died down.

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lol

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"when you apply his techniques from Donuts to other types of music besides soul/R&B, the possibilites are endless."- Small Pro

-------------------------
"when you apply his techniques from Donuts to other types of music besides soul/R&B, the possibilites are endless."- Small Pro

follow me, chum?

keep that gay ish to yourself nigga

-------------------------
"when you apply his techniques from Donuts to other types of music besides soul/R&B, the possibilites are endless."- Small Pro

that would the logical choice imo.

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ditto...


murph71

I think its fair to bring up his contribution to the instrumental/production tip.
Donuts is a great album. But years prior Shadow laid out a blue print
that was amazing and really brought light to the instrumental/chop element.

As a lead championeer of the work of Shadow I would never deny his influence on Dilla and all of hip-hop. That said technique wise what Endtroducing brought to the table was mostly new in the condensation of forms. It will forever stand the test of time though, but the impact of it wasn't as immediate as with Dilla. Though again I will say a lot of Dilla's impact was consequential.
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quoted some magazine (nme? rollingstone? spin?) that dj shadow was the "jimi hendrix of the sampler."

that's the first thing i thought of when i saw this post.

Any one know where i can find the instrumental to "turn me up some"?

one of my fav dilla beats i had it on a cd but can't find the damn thing to save my life.

Inbox me if you do.

Peace

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and i dont mean impact in commercial terms, i mean they didnt have that impact of making everyone take notice immediately and change the game. its just been a subtle thing. yeah hes been influential but gamechanging? i dont see it.

the last time i read a beatmaker called the hendrix or page of the sampler, it was dj shadow. i can kinda see that a bit more obviously, in terms of virtuoso-ness, even though im not the biggest shadow fan. yeah i know dilla was a virtuoso too, but you could never HEAR it unless you were a super-super beat/digging nerd.

anyway, the REAL hendrixes of hip hop are probably the battle DJs. its q bert or mixmaster mike or someone. im not sure you can have a hendrix of the studio.

>anyway, the REAL hendrixes of hip hop are probably the battle
>DJs. its q bert or mixmaster mike or someone. im not sure you
>can have a hendrix of the studio.

I have to concede this point.

I don't agree with all of the impact stuff you mention though. I addressed Shadow above. And I've left a dangling carrot for anyone by admitting a lot of Dilla is consequential as well.

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in terms of game changing, i suppose he did, in his own sphere anyway. ie detroit rap. certain production touches here and there. but not in the way timbaland did. or marley marl before him, or rick rubin etc etc etc. anyway i think to be a hendrix of beats, you have to kinda make that virtuoso-ness apparent. it has to be somewhat in your face. and dilla obv was an expert in terms of manipulating samples, but it wasnt often apparent to all but a small circle of beatheads/insiders/those 'in the know'. BUT i can see what you mean. as only guitarists understood what hendrix was doing that was so different/difficult, just how producers can only see that with dilla.

im not sure hip hop even lends itself to virtuoso-ness in the first place though. unless you want to talk about some crazy abstract headache inducing (lol) beat manipulation production. venetian snares or someone. some breakcore guys maybe. and thats more post-drum n bass than hip hop.

but yeah, i think if you can include records of routines by the skratch piklz guys, those are your hip hop hendrixes. quite easily too. theyre virtuosos, can do it live, plus anyone who sees them would obv be able to marvel at their technique, expertise, and general insane level of skill.

what about the fact that producers are now taking it to the stage?

we're a few years away for it becoming definitive but... bubbling for sure.

just a note i saw Supernat with Dinji Brown (sp) doing live MPC's a looonnnnnngggg time ago. Shit I saw Shadow with Latyrx doing it, (though he was just loading sequences). So its not new, but a standard is brewing.
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i want to though.

i suppose yeah, that would prob create some hendrixes of the mpc, of course. though the thing there is i dont know if theres any limits to be pushed like there are with battle djs? (i dont know if they all use basically the same equipment or not - cos with dj champions, they all basically have to use the same set up dont they, whereas with producers, id imagine theres all diff types of setups you can go for, which might change the playing field a bit)

the other thing i wanted to mention before but forgot is that the thing with battle djs, or from what ive seen on the net, producer battles, is that its all about technique. of course, with guitarists, theres technique involved too, but with guitar playing, its about expression too. which might be a tangent, i dunno, but just thought to throw that in there.

> i mean they didnt
>have that impact of making everyone take notice immediately
>and change the game.

How soon we forget how out of fashion sampling had become. Dilla made it cool to sample again.

*chortle*

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come on

only after blueprint did everyone go from the post swizz beats back to sampling (and kanye rip offs)

just blaze fits in here too

*finds way to make my point*

i said "sample" not *sample*

LOL!!
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that metronomic thing i think we talked about before for example, which im sure dr dre stole for some of his beats from dilla.

To come in ready to call me a Dilladumbass, only to realize "I ain't the one," and concede to a cosignature.
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don't fuck around, I'm saying is all

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all time in hip hop
and if u wanna be real he's prolly not even top 10
this post is dumb
u can think dilla is the GOAT all day and night but let's not be silly here

*Hits up the jazz spot and hears Dilla's influence*
*Peeps out the electronic scene and hears Dilla's influence*
*Browses the alt-rock of today and hears Dilla's influence*
*Checks out the alt-soul of today and hears Dilla's influence.*
*Turns on Late Nite TV and hears Dilla's influence*

Holla atcha boy!!!

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smooth jazz and chopping loops before dilla right?
u kinda reaching

>smooth jazz and chopping loops before dilla right?

LOL @ smooth jazz. Especially if you think that's what I'm talking about.

Chopping loops has been more than accounted for elsewhere in the thread, and credit due has been given.

>u kinda reaching

Give me something to chew on and I'll get down and dirty with it. Otherwise *shrug*
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where are all these examples of Dilla influencing hip hop as a whole
where are the sounds and artist
where are the legions of copy cats?
i mean black milk?
really?
smh

and I'll provide examples to fit into your myopic view.

>where are the sounds and artist
>where are the legions of copy cats?
>i mean black milk?
>really?

all in together now MY-OP-IC

>smh


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if dilla is not even that influential in hip hop then he definitely is not that influential in music overall
that's a given

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"when you apply his techniques from Donuts to other types of music besides soul/R&B, the possibilites are endless."- Small Pro

As an aspiring music creator...Dilla is literally from another planet. He is one of those rare aliens, that this world is blessed with from time to time. Yes Andre 3000 is another one of those aliens, AND you can certainly add Lauryn Hill to that list to. Hendrix certainly was an alien.

Anyhow, Dilla created another world with his beats. The beats that define Dilla are the ones that take you to that place, and it's a place he literally created, that exists out in the universe somewhere, that we can get a glimpse of through listening to his music. It's so out of this world, and indescribable, yet familiar like you've already been there. It's so hard to explain, but if you FEEL music, there's no way you can't get into DILLA. take a minute to let that soak in.

He embodied the Detroit sound. He was so raw, and SO LIVE. It's crazy because I live in Orange County, and though my homie and I have been trying to create a defining sound for our town...SO MANY HEADS have been jocking Dilla's sound. It's ridiculous in how blatant it's been, but it's also a testament of how much of an impact his music really has.

J Dilla certainly changed my life. And hearing the story behind that actual shirt goes along with the beauty of Dilla in general. Folks act like everyone was on Jimi when he was alive.

Yes it became a fad to like Dilla, after he passed. And one of my best friends, who's also a producer put me onto Dilla about two years before he passed. Donuts is NOT the Dilla i'm referencing to,BUT could you really deny someone's passion and love for music, when they're producing on their DEATH BED? That cd is unbelievable when you take that into consideration, and realize the dude was literally dying as he was causing the beats to burp and hiccup and speed and slow down. He was communicating with us through his beats on that CD, and it's obviously not his best work. But that dude's your favorite producer's FAVORITE producer.

as far as disciples of his sound? BLACK MILK anyone?! if Dilla ain't the Hendrix of our generation in terms of hip hop, you better believe that it's going to be his music, or someone who idolized him who's gonna be the one. remember those words.

I can see how people that actually knew him say "Dilla changed my life" but other folks who say it are either really young, unlearned in Hip Hop music (music in general really) or are being opportunistic and/or disingenuous (no offense to anyone). Out of respect for the dead I won't say anything further than that though.

dougnut sign at Krispee Kreme, and I decided to play Donuts by Dilla
and whattaknow, I lost the urge to EAT doughnuts. Close one fam, close one.

>I can see how people that actually knew him say "Dilla
>changed my life" but other folks who say it are either really
>young, unlearned in Hip Hop music (music in general really) or
>are being opportunistic and/or disingenuous (no offense to
>anyone). Out of respect for the dead I won't say anything
>further than that though.


has music ever helped u thru a rough situation?
have u ever gotten an idea for a grand scheme while listening to music?
have u ever fell in love with someone while listening to music..?

c'mon sis.....
u not making sense.....
how does a musician changing a listener's life make them unlearned, oppurtunistic or disingenious..

if dilla changed his life....its his life.....not yours...

>has music ever helped u thru a rough situation?

Yes but that doesn't mean it changed my life. My ability to work out my problems was what did it.

>have u ever gotten an idea for a grand scheme while listening
>to music?

Yes...often times in combination with some good marijuana. However, my ability to put the grand scheme into a plan of action and execute was what changed my life.


>have u ever fell in love with someone while listening to
>music..?

hmmm...Probably but yet again the music in and of itself wasn't what changed my life. I could have fallen in love with someone when we walked in the park. Does that mean the park changed my life?

Being inspired by something and having your life changed are two very different things in my book. Perhaps this is where we see things differently. Perhaps you feel being inspired by something automatically changes you. I don't.


>c'mon sis.....
>u not making sense.....
>how does a musician changing a listener's life make them
>unlearned, oppurtunistic or disingenious..


Wait you forgot I also said really young. When you're young and impressionable you have a tendency to put importance on things that aren't really that important in the grand scheme of your life. That also ties into what I said about being unlearned in music. This cat has admitted he is an aspiring music creator and he only *recently* got into Dilla. That sounds like someone who is unlearned in Hip Hop. Maybe he is and maybe he isn't but I am telling you how it came across to *me*. To say someone is unlearned is not even meant as a negative statement towards him. I have run into a few cats like him over the years and he reminded me of those encounters. You took my comments as being disrespectful towards him when that is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar from the case.


The opportunism that sprang up around Dilla's legacy is very well documented. There were many people just looking to exploit the man after his passing.

The disingenuous part comes from people who seem like they are trying to "curry favor" with Dilla's peeps (most of them established and/or famous artists) by pretending to be more into Dilla's music then they really are. I have seen this happen before.



>
>if dilla changed his life....its his life.....not yours...

Come on man...Did I say his life was my life? No I didn't. If he believes Dilla changed his life then so be it. He posted his perspective and I posted mine. Please don't make it out to be anything more than that!

..anybody from dilla's camp 'having issues' with people *saying/feeling* that dilla changed their lives....
it's just others looking on...
i just feel its impossible for someone to say how something/someone can affect another individual...

....u said it's your humble opinion...it's just that..(in my opinion..lol)..it didn't come across all that humble...
sounded like u were talking down to the poster.....just me tho...

if that wasn't your intention...cool...
*peace sign*

....u said it's your humble opinion...it's just that..(in my
>opinion..lol)..it didn't come across all that humble...
>sounded like u were talking down to the poster.....just me
>tho...

I'm not sure why you would say that when I made sure to type "no offense to anyone" in my intial reply. *shrugs*


>if that wasn't your intention...cool...
>*peace sign*

Nope that wasn't my intention...not at all.

peace

nm

-------------------------
"when you apply his techniques from Donuts to other types of music besides soul/R&B, the possibilites are endless."- Small Pro

get that bullshit outta here, he changed your life? for real? C'mon son he was good but to put him on a hendrix level..... okay. Outside detroit, this website and your small circle of nerdlike friends nobody knows about him. Maybe 10yrs down the road they'll open up a time capsule and discover his ass but who knows. Man u need to get out the house and let birdshit hit u in the face, cause u too deep into this shit. peace

.....if he didn't change yours....fine....
if the poster up top...years down the line realizes dilla really didn't change his life..and he was just being 'emotional' now....fine...

but u can't know that man....
i'm tired of people telling other people how to feel....

is he detracting from dilla's legacy?....no....is he taking food out of dilla's family's mouth....no

if dilla changed his life....fk.....allow him to feel that way....
live YOUR life and k.i.m.

but he was laying it on pretty thick,i couldn't help myself.

dropping a long list of artist the other poster is going to dismiss out of pocket for not fitting into his myopics won't do much. elsewhere in the post i've names some artists. if you're looking more than on a surface level at the music today all of the things i alluded to in the above post are obvious and connect directly to artists making music.

if you want to come at me like my shit is stupid when you haven't done the homework to know who those artists are that's your problem not mine. i know you'll come back with the burden of proof is on me, and as i said elsewhere i've provided examples to posters that approached the discussion on a somewhat level playing field. the above poster's myopics limit his ability to see this beyond what he wants. aka it's all about hip-hop. in fact it's not all about hip-hop at all. it's much bigger than hip-hop.
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Watch me back it up in the 10's
http://avanturb.com

you say he changed electronic music, but you dont give any examples. usually when someone makes an outlandish statement, its up to that person to support it. I havent heard dilla's influence in drum and bass, or even in detroit techno. im not saying it is NOT there, but you made a statement that you arent even trying to back up.

in fact, regarding techno, i would say its the other way around. Jay Dee may have expanded on some of the principles in early techno, but he hasnt changed the game. Kids in the hood were making techno while Jay Dee was still using his speak-n-spell.

And to say he's influencing late night TV is asinine. Just because his friend got a job working for Jimmy Fallon doesnt mean program directors are basing their shows on a quantized Dilla track.

>you say he changed electronic music, but you dont give any
>examples.

I didn't say he changed electronic music. I said I turn on some electronic music and hear his influence.

> usually when someone makes an outlandish statement,
>its up to that person to support it.

where was the outlandish statement again?

>I havent heard dilla's
>influence in drum and bass, or even in detroit techno.

you must have missed all the drum and bass artist that went dubstep and hopped on the dilla quantization craze.

>im not
>saying it is NOT there, but you made a statement that you
>arent even trying to back up.

because the person I was replying to originally in this part of the thread wasn't coming from that angle at all.

>in fact, regarding techno, i would say its the other way
>around. Jay Dee may have expanded on some of the principles
>in early techno, but he hasnt changed the game. Kids in the
>hood were making techno while Jay Dee was still using his
>speak-n-spell.

It's a good thing I didn't say that Jay Dee changed Techno. That would have been outlandish.

>And to say he's influencing late night TV is asinine. Just
>because his friend got a job working for Jimmy Fallon doesnt
>mean program directors are basing their shows on a quantized
>Dilla track.

Did I say he's influencing late night tv, or did i say i turn on late night tv and hear his influence. See how you're twisting what I'm saying to make me look stupid. Except I'm not stupid. I'm actually very clear about what I'm saying.

Now if you want to start over and address what I say instead of what you've twisted me to say, I'm all for it.

We can start with the electronic music I hear with his influence.

The polyrhythms of dubstep (on top of the two step) frequently employ dilla esque sense of rhythm. Dubstep as a sound is permeating through a lot of electronic music today particularly for its rhythmic sensibilities. It's not all of music of course but it's got it's strong little niche.

If you let others tell it Nosaj Thing is an electronic artist. More or less a non sample based producer, that manages to incorporate dillaisms into his work, most clearly with the rhythm.

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Watch me back it up in the 10's
http://avanturb.com

>>you say he changed electronic music, but you dont give any
>>examples.
>
>I didn't say he changed electronic music. I said I turn on
>some electronic music and hear his influence.

if the music didnt change after him, how can you hear an influence?

>> usually when someone makes an outlandish statement,
>>its up to that person to support it.

you basically said that Dilla *influenced* a decently sized protion of the entertainment spectrum in america.

>you must have missed all the drum and bass artist that went
>dubstep and hopped on the dilla quantization craze.

no, i didnt miss all the artists that went dubstep, but ive never heard a dubstep record that contained any rhythmic characteristics that werent done before in jungle.

>>im not
>>saying it is NOT there, but you made a statement that you
>>arent even trying to back up.
>
>because the person I was replying to originally in this part
>of the thread wasn't coming from that angle at all.

well i agree there, but thats not me

>It's a good thing I didn't say that Jay Dee changed Techno.
>That would have been outlandish.

IF Jay Dee were to have influenced Techno the only way to detect that is in changes in the music. No change = no influence

>Did I say he's influencing late night tv, or did i say i turn
>on late night tv and hear his influence. See how you're
>twisting what I'm saying to make me look stupid. Except I'm
>not stupid. I'm actually very clear about what I'm saying.

but my point still stands. no one at NBC gives a shit about Jay Dee. Jimmy Fallon hired Jay Dee's friend. To claim that as a Dilla "win" is suspect.


>The polyrhythms of dubstep (on top of the two step) frequently
>employ dilla esque sense of rhythm. Dubstep as a sound is
>permeating through a lot of electronic music today
>particularly for its rhythmic sensibilities. It's not all of
>music of course but it's got it's strong little niche.

but jungle like Soundmurderer, Paradox, and others are the foundation for polyrhythmic dubstep. if anything, i would say that Dilla was influenced by those early junglists.

EDIT: chase & status, two of those d&b cats that went dubstep, have a very easily identifiable musical basis. their music usually falls into one of three categories: an expansion of the jumpup sound like "druids", amen rollers like "in love", and ragga based tracks like "duppy man" or the "hot wuk" remix.

their dubstep is very clearly an evolution of the ragga sound they like. now, that being said, i dont know what goes into RECORDING dubstep. its very possible that the techniques associated with it are based off of Dilla's studio know-how. however, sonically, that seems like convergent evolution to me.

>>I didn't say he changed electronic music. I said I turn on
>>some electronic music and hear his influence.
>
>if the music didnt change after him, how can you hear an
>influence?

I'm hearing artists putting his influence into their work. Electronic is a pretty broad form. You'll be able to find plenty of artists that have no DIlla influence. But there are some that have.

>>> usually when someone makes an outlandish statement,
>>>its up to that person to support it.
>
>you basically said that Dilla *influenced* a decently sized
>protion of the entertainment spectrum in america.

*blankstare* where did i say that?

>>you must have missed all the drum and bass artist that went
>>dubstep and hopped on the dilla quantization craze.
>
>no, i didnt miss all the artists that went dubstep, but ive
>never heard a dubstep record that contained any rhythmic
>characteristics that werent done before in jungle.

nice one. doesn't keep the artists from being influenced by dilla though. and you know (i hope) that's a broad generalization that wouldn't hold up to scrutiny. i don't have time to scrutinize it though so two points.

>well i agree there, but thats not me

i'm talking to you now.

>>It's a good thing I didn't say that Jay Dee changed Techno.
>>That would have been outlandish.
>
>IF Jay Dee were to have influenced Techno the only way to
>detect that is in changes in the music. No change = no
>influence

yeah but he didn't, and i never said he did, so making your point here doesn't add or diminish anything.

>>Did I say he's influencing late night tv, or did i say i
>turn
>>on late night tv and hear his influence. See how you're
>>twisting what I'm saying to make me look stupid. Except I'm
>>not stupid. I'm actually very clear about what I'm saying.
>
>but my point still stands. no one at NBC gives a shit about
>Jay Dee. Jimmy Fallon hired Jay Dee's friend. To claim that
>as a Dilla "win" is suspect.

Who said anything about a Dilla win? What are we winning. I'm just stating a fact. I turn on NBC and can hear Dilla's influence. You cannot deny that.

>
>>The polyrhythms of dubstep (on top of the two step)
>frequently
>>employ dilla esque sense of rhythm. Dubstep as a sound is
>>permeating through a lot of electronic music today
>>particularly for its rhythmic sensibilities. It's not all
>of
>>music of course but it's got it's strong little niche.
>
>but jungle like Soundmurderer, Paradox, and others are the
>foundation for polyrhythmic dubstep. if anything, i would say
>that Dilla was influenced by those early junglists.

Wait wait wait... was DIlla influenced by jungle or by techno? Hmmmmm.... there's a full circle to the electronic 'influnece' i've articulated elsewhere though not in this thread. another discussion at another time.

I'll make this point here without having to get into origins and such. Regardless of how you historically place the rise of dubstep, if I interview five artists and they all cite Dilla as a major influence on them, and can talk about the specifics of drum patterns and rhythms they love and studied from Dilla, he had a musical influence on them.


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I talked a lot of shit in the 00's
Watch me back it up in the 10's
http://avanturb.com

>I'm hearing artists putting his influence into their work.
>Electronic is a pretty broad form. You'll be able to find
>plenty of artists that have no DIlla influence. But there are
>some that have.

thats possible, but my whole point is that what you're calling Dilla's influence might in fact be something else. and in the case of dubstep i believe that it is.

>>>> usually when someone makes an outlandish statement,
>>>>its up to that person to support it.
>>
>>you basically said that Dilla *influenced* a decently sized
>>protion of the entertainment spectrum in america.
>
>*blankstare* where did i say that?

aside from hip hop...
*Hits up the jazz spot and hears Dilla's influence*
*Peeps out the electronic scene and hears Dilla's influence*
*Browses the alt-rock of today and hears Dilla's influence*
*Checks out the alt-soul of today and hears Dilla's influence.*
*Turns on Late Nite TV and hears Dilla's influence*


>>>you must have missed all the drum and bass artist that went
>>>dubstep and hopped on the dilla quantization craze.

>nice one. doesn't keep the artists from being influenced by
>dilla though. and you know (i hope) that's a broad
>generalization that wouldn't hold up to scrutiny. i don't
>have time to scrutinize it though so two points.

perhaps

>>IF Jay Dee were to have influenced Techno the only way to
>>detect that is in changes in the music. No change = no
>>influence
>
>yeah but he didn't, and i never said he did, so making your
>point here doesn't add or diminish anything.

well when you said electronic music, i brought up techno specifically because of the Detroit connection. And while im sure Jay Dee may have provided some Detroit techno prod/DJs with inspiration, HE is a branch off of THEIR tree. not the other way around.

>Who said anything about a Dilla win? What are we winning.
>I'm just stating a fact. I turn on NBC and can hear Dilla's
>influence. You cannot deny that.

fine. i have to agree with that, but its a hollow statement based more on circumstance than any brilliance of Dilla's art.

>Wait wait wait... was DIlla influenced by jungle or by techno?
> Hmmmmm.... there's a full circle to the electronic
>'influnece' i've articulated elsewhere though not in this
>thread. another discussion at another time.

well all electronic music traces its roots back to Detroit Techno. Jungle/drum and bass has just gone so far in its own way as to be able to exert its own influence.

>I'll make this point here without having to get into origins
>and such. Regardless of how you historically place the rise
>of dubstep, if I interview five artists and they all cite
>Dilla as a major influence on them, and can talk about the
>specifics of drum patterns and rhythms they love and studied
>from Dilla, he had a musical influence on them.

Agreed...IF you can do this. but unless a few of those dudes are flagship artists (for the sake of conversation we'll say Ed Rush or Optical (DnB producers/DJs)), a genre wide influence should not be assumed.

-------------------------
"when you apply his techniques from Donuts to other types of music besides soul/R&B, the possibilites are endless."- Small Pro

Crazy influential among his peers, a couple of songs that the average joe might know, but for the most part the regular music-listening public wouldn't be able to tell you much about Dilla at all.

Oh, and see Anvil: The Story of Anvil. Awesome movie.

Carry on.

>Crazy influential among his peers, a couple of songs that the
>average joe might know, but for the most part the regular
>music-listening public wouldn't be able to tell you much about
>Hendrix at all.

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I talked a lot of shit in the 00's
Watch me back it up in the 10's
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name the top ten producers in hip hop. anyone.

Dilla never has been.

It's a shame that he hasn't. But he hasn't.

According to the RIAA, Jimi had 5 gold-selling albums while he was alive.

I sure hope not.
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Both are great, it has nothing to do with greatness. They're both influential. They're both talented. But in terms of mainstream success, it's a huge difference.

HuH????




murph71

Are you serious?

That's just the easy undebatable one. There are others.
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Watch me back it up in the 10's
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Madlib is dope but he ain't surpassed Dilla in my beatmaking bible.

Were you one of those that said Beat Konducta Movie Scenes is better than Donuts?

take away all the shit that surrounded Donuts and yes MS is the better record
in fact most people here didn't like Donuts when it came out

Madlib is not fuckin with Dilla. If Madlib has surpassed Dilla, can someone, anyone explain to me why Dilla's BBE LP came out in '01 and it's shittin on Madlib's BBE LP which came out in what 08??? He had 7 years to get nicer and he didn't step up to the plate with home run power.

PS Movie Scenes is not fuckin with Donuts, you can't be fucking serious.

you do realize that Madlib and Dilla came out about the same time, right?
and the beats on MS are just as good as whats on Donuts
the only thing that puts Donuts over are the internal meanings and the psychology behind the sample choices
you're a Dilla Dumbass so you'll never admit to anyone being better than Dilla so thats par for the course
so I'll just tell you to keep it th' fuck movin' and get th' fuck outta my thread before I dump dick in yo booty

I love Madlib as much as I do Dilla, often having trouble deciding on who I consider to be greater, but I definitely have to side with Donuts on this argument. Seriously some beats on MS are just straight to the skip button for me. Donuts has a unique flavor for each of its tracks, each with its own message, while MS has beats like Electric Company. It may be hard to not be biased in this decision, but Donuts is just overall more enjoyable to listen to.

especially uncivilized ignorant faggots that can't acknowledge logical knowledgeable statements like say, Welcome to Detroit > WLIB.

Movie scenes had a couple cool joints, but the best joints were imitation Dilla.


I don't understand why people say Donuts was inspired by Madlib, yall musta never heard the Dill Withers tape. Right now, Madlib's making a lot of beats that sound like homage paying Donuts. Madlib got way more from Dilla than Dilla got from Lib.

>especially uncivilized ignorant faggots that can't
>acknowledge logical knowledgeable statements like say, Welcome
>to Detroit > WLIB.
>

WTD is waaaaaaay doper than WLIB
I can't listen to the record even halfway thru before I get tired of it

>Movie scenes had a couple cool joints, but the best joints
>were imitation Dilla.
>

actually Donuts was imitation Madlib

>
>I don't understand why people say Donuts was inspired by
>Madlib, yall musta never heard the Dill Withers tape. Right
>now, Madlib's making a lot of beats that sound like homage
>paying Donuts. Madlib got way more from Dilla than Dilla got
>from Lib.
>

I've heard the Dill Withers tape
you obviously haven't herd enough Madlib
Libby doing that style predates Dilla by damn near 5 yrs
you sound like a reterded chustestuffing fagcake with prejizz in his adam's apple, you fool ass cockcavorter, you

i ain't up on every single jazz song he ever released or didn't release, but i know madlib's catalog. madlib didn't turn off the quantize until after he noticed dilla did. madlib ain't put claps on his snares until dilla had made it his signature. madlib didn't fuck with the synthy sound until the YNQ shit came out and this is how many years after raise it up and the don't nobody care about us...

madlib is definitely an ill muhfucka, but he ain't so ill that he's shitting on his main influence. your admission that wtd is waaaaaay doper than wlib is proof that he ain't surpassed the GOAT.

and Dilla isn't his main influence either, fool
I never said he surpassed Dilla but Dilla didn't surpass him either
they were equal in my eyes and I don't favor one another

LMAO


-------------------------
"when you apply his techniques from Donuts to other types of music besides soul/R&B, the possibilites are endless."- Small Pro

they were on par when dilla was alive.
since he has passed lib has had the opportunity to do things dilla never did.
anyone that can't see that objectively is not worth talking to.
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Watch me back it up in the 10's
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how does having the opportunity to do something someone else didnt, equal surpassing them?

john legend has the opportunity to do things stevie wonder doesnt...

"This one is for Dilla..." who would have flipped the fuck out if he heard it and been inspired to do more.
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Watch me back it up in the 10's
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-------------------------
“The other dude after me didn’t help my case. It was just like…crazy nigga factory going on.”
Dre makes no apologies for his own eccentricities. “I was young, and searching, trying to find myself,” he says. “Never did.”-- Andre B

very pompous. I'm not sure if you're just trying to get in someone's good graces or simply batshit insane.

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you're right i dont...and it doesnt matter. this post is pretty ridiculous.

NO

Hell, even people who didn't listen to rock knew Jimi, he was iconic.

To have Jimi-style influence, people have to at least know you. It's easy to get swept away by the pro-Dilla Lesson forget that most people have never heard of him, and people that have don't all ride for him like people do here.

This is a unique environment, not indicative of the Hip Hop community as a whole.

You say you hear Dilla's influence in late night TV? *shrugs* People see the virgin mary in tortillas.

Not to knock Dilla, bur Jimmy didn't play the guitar, that shit was an extension. Have you seen woodstock? He doesn't even look at the guitar. Just frying face off that headband, playin with his eyes closed. Two completely different musicians. Two completely different time periods. Two totally different people. Apples & oranges.
___

And yes you're saying amongst his peers and beyond Jimi was known. Fine. Amongst his peers and beyond Dilla is known too. Is it as broad a base know but who gives a fuck. Let's talk about the musical parallels not the heresay ones.
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I talked a lot of shit in the 00's
Watch me back it up in the 10's
http://avanturb.com

>To have Jimi-style influence, people have to at least know you.

I know it's probably not what you meant but 'style' in the above sentence means more than you put on it. I'm not talking style I'm talking technique influence. Musical talent, not type of stardom. I could care less about the stardom level of either artist.


>It's easy to get swept away by the pro-Dilla Lesson forget that most people have never heard of him, and people that have don't all ride for him like people do here.

Again I'm not using popularity to validate my claim. And popularity is the worst argument against a comparison of musical impact. Only thing worse is to bunch me in with the pro-Dilla Lesson. Never been one of em. And again they don't shape my claim. I'm talking strictly on musical merits and how the musical influence dispersed. Care to counter that?

>This is a unique environment, not indicative of the Hip Hop community as a whole.

This is a weak attempt to divert the discussion away from the topic at hand. There are ways to shut me down. Only one of them has been utilized so far.

>You say you hear Dilla's influence in late night TV? *shrugs* People see the virgin mary in tortillas.

Holla at ya message board leader about the virgin mary in tortillas. Don't get mad if he doesn't reply though, he's busy throwing Dillaisms all over late night tv.

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I talked a lot of shit in the 00's
Watch me back it up in the 10's
http://avanturb.com

>I know it's probably not what you meant but 'style' in the
>above sentence means more than you put on it. I'm not talking
>style I'm talking technique influence. Musical talent, not
>type of stardom. I could care less about the stardom level of
>either artist.

Jimi influenced more people because more people cared about the music he made. Fourteen-year-old kids listened to his records and went on to carry his influence into the next generation of music. My point isn't that Jimi was more famous, but rather his widespread appeal is indicitive of the great number of people that cared about his music. Not that many people care about Dilla, even those who have heard of him. A select group of fanatics do, but most people don't.


>Again I'm not using popularity to validate my claim. And
>popularity is the worst argument against a comparison of
>musical impact.

Just so we're clear, no it's really not. You can't make musical impact if no one ever heard of you. The more people hear you the more of an impact you can make. You can make an impact with a small amount of the *right* people hearing you, theoretically, but popularity is generally correlated with impact. And I wasn't using popularity to invalidate your claim, but rather the fact that nobody really cared.

>I'm talking strictly on musical merits and
>how the musical influence dispersed. Care to counter that?

Yes. You are at least a little fanatic in how you imagine these influences to reveal themselves. You see them everywhere and the reason is obvious; it's because you really want to.

>Jimi influenced more people because more people cared about
>the music he made. Fourteen-year-old kids listened to his
>records and went on to carry his influence into the next
>generation of music.

This is what I keep debating. I'll give fourteen year olds saying hey I want to play guitar because after hearing Jimi. And that's all well and good, but what I really don't hear is people really applying jimi's musical influence into their own skill set. An example of what I'm talking about would be if you could say well The Black Keys have a Jimi-esque approach to fusing blues and rock. But they don't. At all. Even if they were influenced by him it doesn't show up in the music. Only a handful of artists ever took up that torch and so no matter how influential he may have been on a 'ethereal' level, it didn't play out practically in the music. He was raised so high as a God that his music was deemed almost godly and unattainable by mere mortal guitarists.

Dilla on the other hand, his techniques disseminated. They are still challenging to do beyond the imitation level, but at the same time they are spreading. Far and wide. Folk seem so concerned with his popularity in mainstream views but it's beyond that. I mean you can still get a nice set of top hip-hop producers to tell you about his influence. But the real testament is that I can turn on the BBC and hear about the musical movements bubbling over there and those artists are talking about dilla influence. There's a scene in Korea that will drop Dilla's name as an influence. In New Zealand you got a soul collective putting out Dillafied soul. I talk to young jazz heads and they're saying they got their sense of rhythm listening to ?uest and Dilla.

This type of musical influence is contagious and spreading. It keeps Dilla in the realm of the living as opposed to Hendrix's godly status. It has nothing to do with fame or hits or popularity, or how 'deep' the impact of the work was, it's about the musical message was disseminated.


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I talked a lot of shit in the 00's
Watch me back it up in the 10's
http://avanturb.com

as i've said a lot of it for dilla is consequential. dilla's legacy is a product of circumstance, but even without those circumstances the others that could have never got to really cannonize it. closest was shadow.
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I talked a lot of shit in the 00's
Watch me back it up in the 10's
http://avanturb.com

Are you really trying to put Dilla's influence over Hendrix's influence now? Are you serious?!?!?!?!

Not only that but you keep saying to everyone that popularity means nothing and is a weak argument (blah, blah, blah) but yet you've just typed how you can turn on the BBC and hear people talking about Dilla's influence, how there are crews in Korea and New Zealand who speak upon Dilla's influence etc... Basically what you are doing now is trying to use the same popularity argument FOR Dilla to try and prove your point (of which you don't have any really).

Man just STOP already!

I came into this conversation with an open mind about the topic but after discussing this with you and reading the rest of the conversation I will say that Dilla was NOT the Hendrix of this generation. Fuck outta here with that bullshit! I think you are being disingenuous and you even admitted yourself that you weren't even that big of a fan. Why you now decided to try and make a case for him just reeks of ULTERIOR MOTIVES that are not at all altruisitic. If an argument could be made on behalf of Dilla you certainly aren't the person to do it.

Just STOP already because you are embarassing yourself at this point.

Shock posting doesn't suit you at all.

*shaking my goddamn head*

>Are you really trying to put Dilla's influence over Hendrix's
>influence now? Are you serious?!?!?!?!

Only if you qualify it the way I have. If you do the abridged version of course it sounds ridiculous.

>Not only that but you keep saying to everyone that popularity
>means nothing and is a weak argument (blah, blah, blah) but
>yet you've just typed how you can turn on the BBC and hear
>people talking about Dilla's influence, how there are crews in
>Korea and New Zealand who speak upon Dilla's influence etc...
>Basically what you are doing now is trying to use the same
>popularity argument FOR Dilla to try and prove your point (of
>which you don't have any really).

No I'm talking about artists. Not fans. But artists that are actively putting his musical influence into their work. See the clip from the jimi doc above and take the quote I pulled from it. Rock didn't radically change it's direction after Hendrix. It stood in shock and awe bearing witness to greatness. What could they do after that? "Get on stage and just strummed." Other than a handful of fringe artists that has been the trajectory of rock since. You don't hear Hendrix coming out of a grip of guitar players the way you do Dilla coming out of a grip of MPC players.

This takes nothing away from what Hendrix did. It doesn't diminish it in one bit. It just says that the influence of Dilla is more direct.

>Man just STOP already!

Nope.

>I came into this conversation with an open mind about the
>topic but after discussing this with you and reading the rest
>of the conversation I will say that Dilla was NOT the Hendrix
>of this generation. Fuck outta here with that bullshit!

The passion you put into that. :)

>I
>think you are being disingenuous and you even admitted
>yourself that you weren't even that big of a fan.

Why disingenuous, because I'm honest and objective. Does the fact that I'm not a fan and can respect the work of an artist indicate I'm not being honest?

>Why you now
>decided to try and make a case for him just reeks of ULTERIOR
>MOTIVES that are not at all altruisitic.

Ultereior motives that are not all altruistic? Like what, I'm trying to get Dilla to executive produce my next project? WTF? What do I gain by doing this other than getting more OKP's to think I'm batshit crazy until they come down to my level of insanity and realize I may not be so crazy after all. That takes time though.

I do have ulterior motives though. I want to see if people can speak on musical influence objectively. So far, not so good results.

>If an argument could
>be made on behalf of Dilla you certainly aren't the person to
>do it.

On behalf of Dilla? What does that mean. As for arguments being made. I'm pretty sure I'm the only one foolish enough to make such a claim, let alone actually face the ridicule to defend it.

>Just STOP already because you are embarassing yourself at this
>point.

The folk on here I give a fuck about know better than to dismiss me out of pocket.

>Shock posting doesn't suit you at all.

*This* is not shock posting.

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>Hell, even people who didn't listen to rock knew Jimi, he was
>iconic.
>
>To have Jimi-style influence, people have to at least know
>you. It's easy to get swept away by the pro-Dilla Lesson
>forget that most people have never heard of him, and people
>that have don't all ride for him like people do here.
>
>This is a unique environment, not indicative of the Hip Hop
>community as a whole.
>
>You say you hear Dilla's influence in late night TV? *shrugs*
>People see the virgin mary in tortillas.



What u^^said....On the money....



murph71

right?

because of jimi, both soul and funk artists added the guitar in a new dimension in their music in the 70's, starting with funkadelic and going strong for that entire decade, and on thru to the 80's.

as much as i like his stuff, (or some of it anyway) i can't see where dilla did that.

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and before you even come with vodoo, try again. good album, but not hardly genre changing.

Don't get me started on jazz. LOL.

^^^ pushing buttons ^^^
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and I don't care wat anyone says, when Phife said 'yall ain't doing neo-soul, yall doing Tribe' he was correct in saying such
and don't forget who REALLY kicked off that sound
ALI SHAHEED MUHAMMAD

i'm just defending the argument. i've left holes all over this bitch for anyone willing to go beyond a knee jerk response to be able to tear it apart (no popwell-o), but its funny how dilladumbass and dilladetractors seem incapable of having in depth discussion on it.

kudos to the handful of cats in here holdin' it down.
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I talked a lot of shit in the 00's
Watch me back it up in the 10's
http://avanturb.com

>i'm just defending the argument. i've left holes all over
>this bitch for anyone willing to go beyond a knee jerk
>response to be able to tear it apart (no popwell-o), but its
>funny how dilladumbass and dilladetractors seem incapable of
>having in depth discussion on it.
>

I see wat ur getting at dont worry bout it
you can't have an in depth discussion based on hyperbole

>kudos to the handful of cats in here holdin' it down

yyyyyyeah nigga
thats me up and mothafuckin' down

Q-Tip did most of the music not Ali.

Otherwise, no.

Edit: Wonky won't last another year, that's why I'm not including that.

>Edit: Wonky won't last another year, that's why I'm not
>including that.


-------------------------
“The other dude after me didn’t help my case. It was just like…crazy nigga factory going on.”
Dre makes no apologies for his own eccentricities. “I was young, and searching, trying to find myself,” he says. “Never did.”-- Andre B

.

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Watch me back it up in the 10's
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I talked a lot of shit in the 00's
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I think his influence on what hip-hop sounds like today will always be discernible. He created a soundscape that certain producers will always try to recreate and mostly never even acheive,like Hendrix on the guitar so i get the comparison. I just think Hip-hop isnt in the state Rock/Blues was in '69. Its apples and oranges. Hip-hop, though more apparent in its primitive days, is still too regional to crown 1 person with that honor, or burden.
p.s.ive been playing guitar for 10+years not that it should matter

Dilla was dope though..

but you talking straight crazy.

the massage is in the medium
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I'm not saying hip hop isn't original..not at all. But you can't fairly compare someone who actually played the instruments, arranged the music, and the musicians...with someone who manipulates the final product..

it's just not comparable..

>I'm not saying hip hop isn't original..not at all. But you
>can't fairly compare someone who actually played the
>instruments, arranged the music, and the musicians...with
>someone who manipulates the final product..

the massage is the medium

>it's just not comparable..

It is, just not on a one to one level. Except you started by admitting hip-hop is original despite the fact by your definition it shouldn't be. Rather it doesn't have to be. Under these conditions the artist that is able to bring something noteworthy enough to be called original, well that has to be respected.

So there are parallels which can be made on the measure of originality. And so I say the measure of originality for their medium between Jimi and Dilla are on a parallel level. Strictly talking music originality. Dilla has some shortcomings, yet arguably because of them, it could be said that the breadth of Dillas influence has the ability to dare I say it have a broader, in a direct sense, influence than Hendrix's, this could be argued as being enough to weigh out the shortcomings he has.

I'm strictly speaking musical here. The only personal element that comes into play is their both passing early in life, and the way that's affected the sense of overall output with them.

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I talked a lot of shit in the 00's
Watch me back it up in the 10's
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When you're discussing a genre that began with sampling.
What you're saying is like saying Jay-Z can't compare
himself to Jordan because he doesn't play basketball.
He's saying he is to Rap what Jordan is to basketball.
In the same vein, the poster is saying that Dilla is to
Hiphop what Hendrix is to rock and roll.
Not that I necessarily agree with either of the comparisons,
but they CAN be made logically.

and comparing someone who makes something out of what others did in MUSIC...compared to someone who made original music from their own musicianship...are 2 different things in my opinion...

you can compare whatever you want.

-------------------------
"when you apply his techniques from Donuts to other types of music besides soul/R&B, the possibilites are endless."- Small Pro

has worked with/directed musicians same as hendrix. some of you anti sample guys will never know how musical that shit really is.

-

influence to permeate into both popular culture and other bands. And I don't think that's happened with Dilla yet. My prediction is he'll stay an underground icon, but will never have a true lasting effect on music. I wish it wasn't that way, goddam everyone should be taking inspiration from Dilla. But right now not many are, and I don't see many in the future doing so either.

I've said it before, the person who's taken Dilla's legacy on best is Black Milk. If he can blow up, then Dilla could become the legend he deserves to. Most producers out there are going backwards though.

in the timeframe of them creating their best works outside of the minority that really enjoy it off the bat
I personally don't think that something has to be able to be digested right away to be brilliant, we're just so used to instant gratification and niggas that don't want us to have to think because they're dumb as fuck in the first place

his career was alot longer than Jimi's...Jimi was on for like 5 years.

>his career was alot longer than Jimi's...Jimi was on for like
>5 years.

crazy when you think about it, isn't it?

.

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Machine Hype - http://machinehype.tumblr.com/
15 cosigns howisya - http://tinyurl.com/15cosignshowisya

Most people know who Hendrix is but most people don't know who Dilla is.

the use of feedbacks...
the colorful chords...

everybody that came after jimi changed up their sound.

a lot of those distortion pedals they sell for guitars
are trying to immitate the sounds that hendrix got
with a marshal amp, a wah wah, and tons of volume and feedbacks...

it influenced everything from punk to grunge to "classic rock"

no.

just no.

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hendrix made feedback sound like notes.
before hendrix, feedback was something musicans tried to avoid.
it was considered a bad sound.
precautions were taken to avoid feedback.

now just about every guitar player uses feedback.
it's considered good.


the impact was seismic.
gutiar playing after hendrix was different.



what sounds did dilla create in hip-hop that had never been
heard before?

what sounds did dilla create
that became so popluar that they influenced musicians
outside of the context of hip-hop.

and i say outside the context of hip-hop
because anybody that plays guitar
uses sounds that were considered bad
because hendrix made that an acceptable thing.

there is no comparison.

You probably don't know who Albert Collins in. You also probably don't realize how many artists recorded feedback before Hendrix. You should probably look those things up and think about how you want to debate this with me first.

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i do know this though...

the top acts of the 60s
were following hendrix because he was a game changer.

and even though hendrix may have not been the FIRST person to do things
(is anybody ever the first to do anything? MJ didn't "invent" the moonwalk)
i do know that hendrix was almost certainly one of the most POPULAR guys to do it.

that counts for something.

i'm going to leave this alone.
maybe i don't know enough about hendrix or rock music in general.

Nobody.

Pete Rock and Q-Tip were funky, but I'm sure they'll BOTH tell you that their minds were blown when they heard Dilla's stuff for the first time.

I could write a book on this (as could many others on this site), but I thought it was obvious by now.

He was using the MPC3000 like nobody else.

into what it is today.

You're reaching. plain and simple. so much so that if i heard this in person i'd slap you.

as well as tons of other things he did

but just what he did for the chop is enough for me :-)
>

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but I have noticed that influence creeping up like shit in the newer hip-hop I've latched on to in the last few years.

shit, even in Madlib beats. and I consider them contemporaries

...for a LONG TIME.

I think it's a fair comparison to make... at least for argument's sake.

Dilla = Hendrix....

HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa.... Thanks for that...

is Dilla. i think thats a compliment to both Dilla and Hendrix.

dilla would be equivalent to a hendrix. donuts is a testament to that.

the willingness to experiment and master his tool/weapon/method of expression.

jimi's was the guitar. dilla's was the sampler. i mean we've got a grip of folks that have come along and played the guitar, and there are people who could be argued to be better technically

albert king, b.b. king...that stuff can be argued. primo, pete rock, dre....

but as far as their bodies of work and the sonic backdrops they've provided...

you can't contest that.

do you make music? are you passionate about making music, or creating or some sport or something that you don't just do, but live?

these dudes were spiritually in tune with their music and it's not something you hear.

you feel them.

you can't 'feel' Primo or Pete's shit?
you're fucking crazy at least and a real spermswisher at most

i think you misunderstood that part. im saying you can feel pete rock and primo. they are masters of the sampler as well, and they came before dilla. but there was something that dilla was bringin that was a little bit more special.

and fall back on the name callin. it aint that serious. its just opinions.

lol...lol...lol....not sure how you can love Dilla and not even like Pete and Preme....wow

but it is WAAAAAAAY beyond that. This is a religion.

Let Dilla be Dilla doggie. Hendrix's technical ability is far greater than rearranging an already composed piece of music. Dilla was a master arranger, that's it. Hendrix fused blues with jazz and wrote technically sophisticated song structures which he performed uniquely every time he performed, he was notorious for never playing the same song twice, meaning, every performance yielded a new outcome even though it was the same song because he would improvise so much on the spot, based on how he felt, what he experienced. There was nothing "Arranged" or "Rehearsed" about his sound.. he was a wild man with a guitar that was literally on fire. Dilla had some dope drum patterns and he knew how to work a chop but you're fucking crazy if you think he was on Hendrix level. Dilla prolly rolled over in his grave after he heard this post form the dead horse.

There is no Hendrix of our generation. Dilla is his own man, you are belittling his legacy by comparing him to another musician, from another fukcing genre all together you numb skull. Go play with some lego's, you'll feel better.

>Let Dilla be Dilla doggie. Hendrix's technical ability is far
>greater than rearranging an already composed piece of music.

Hendrix kicked open the doors of what people could/would do with a guitar. If you can't see a parallel of what Dilla (or other innovators) did with a more contemporary style of music-making, then think a little harder.

>Hendrix fused blues
>with jazz and wrote technically sophisticated song structures
>which he performed uniquely every time he performed, he was
>notorious for never playing the same song twice, meaning,
>every performance yielded a new outcome even though it was the
>same song because he would improvise so much on the spot,
>based on how he felt, what he experienced. There was nothing
>"Arranged" or "Rehearsed" about his sound.. he was a wild man
>with a guitar that was literally on fire. Dilla had some dope
>drum patterns and he knew how to work a chop but you're
>fucking crazy if you think he was on Hendrix level. Dilla
>prolly rolled over in his grave after he heard this post form
>the dead horse.

You're comparing live performance to recording. What a waste...

>>Let Dilla be Dilla doggie. Hendrix's technical ability is
>far
>>greater than rearranging an already composed piece of music.
>
>Hendrix kicked open the doors of what people could/would do
>with a guitar. If you can't see a parallel of what Dilla (or
>other innovators) did with a more contemporary style of
>music-making, then think a little harder.
>

What Hendrix accomplished with the guitar is not even remotely comparable to what Dilla did with an mpc. How many Dilla clones are there out there today?

Many.

How many Hendrix clones?

None.

He can't be imitated.

Dilla presented a style that almost anyone with good practice can copy. You guys just don't get it and are reaching way too hard. Not everyone has to reflective of someone from another era. Why is this so important for you? Hendrix was also international and Dilla was underground. Why do you persist in this idiotic comparison? Furthermore, Hendrix was a real songwriter.. Dilla was a beat maker. How many other points do you need to hear about to realize that you're dead wrong? I love Dilla too but this is insulting to both artists.


>>Hendrix fused blues
>>with jazz and wrote technically sophisticated song
>structures
>>which he performed uniquely every time he performed, he was
>>notorious for never playing the same song twice, meaning,
>>every performance yielded a new outcome even though it was
>the
>>same song because he would improvise so much on the spot,
>>based on how he felt, what he experienced. There was nothing
>>"Arranged" or "Rehearsed" about his sound.. he was a wild
>man
>>with a guitar that was literally on fire. Dilla had some
>dope
>>drum patterns and he knew how to work a chop but you're
>>fucking crazy if you think he was on Hendrix level. Dilla
>>prolly rolled over in his grave after he heard this post
>form
>>the dead horse.
>
>You're comparing live performance to recording. What a
>waste...

Exactly why this is even a stupider shockier comparison. Dilla recorded, meaning.. he has unlimited takes to get it right. Hendrix performed it live and did it in a way that people still get wet dreams about.

Go fly a kite.

Please don't invent shit about one to suit your fantasy though. Keep things real and savvy.

...is comparable to what Dilla accomplished with his own "instrument."

He had trained and experienced and accomplished musicians rethinking the way that music could sound good.

Ultimately, I think it's a stupid argument to make, but I think it's an easy concept to understand. And if you don't think that Dilla had that effect on people, then you're wrong. If you think that Hendrix had more of that effect on people, I have nothing to say to refute that. To me, it's not a more or less kind of argument.

Part of why he was able to get the sounds out of his instrument was because of this fact. He was able to use his thumb while playing and hit chords/note combinations that other's couldn't. Much like Rachmaninov (famous pianist/composer) could do because of his freakishly big hands... both of these guys remain technically near impossible to play because of this reason alone... furthermore...

The MPC is not a guitar. The MPC's learning curve does not equate to the learning curve of a guitar... You can figure out how to use an MPC right out of the box... but you won't be able to play a damn thing on the guitar out of the box... first of all. You need to know what scales are and then have the hand/finger dexterity to pull it off. An MPC is a sequencer.... it's basically a basic midi sequencer/computer in a box... it's not even close to the same thing... you're comparing apples to oranges and saying that Dilla can make orange juice with apples.... furthermore... what Sally Sue does with an easy bake oven will not equate to what an experience chef can do with a pan.

You can't just take away the details because it suits your argument... you have to give Hendrix more props because he was a well versed musician/composer... fusing multiple genre's into his own crazy and unique style... which literally changed the scope of rock n'roll... Dilla is just not seeing that. I love the guy too but you guys should let the man lie in memory as one of the greatest hip hop producers ever but don't compare him to people form other genre's eras.. because you feel misty when you pop on Donuts. It's not fair.

>Go play with some lego's, you'll feel better.

hehe, "lego feet"... anyway, this topic was spun off of mary anne hobbs calling flying lotus the hendrix of this generation, so there's more ammo if you want to go off on a year-old post some more

>hehe, "lego feet"... anyway, this topic was spun off of mary
>anne hobbs calling flying lotus the hendrix of this
>generation, so there's more ammo if you want to go off on a
>year-old post some more

BarTek's just trying to make up for lost time. And he catching me when I'm soooooo bored too. He just said Deadmau5.... like fa real... sullying up my shit.
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"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."

Now I know you're just crazy. You should read up on Ableton Live and who helped make it what it is today.. and you will see deadmau5 come up a lot.

Boredom should no be no excuse for bad shock posts.

>Boredom should no be no excuse for bad shock posts.

i look more like this

http://tinyurl.com/78hfjkz

touche.

dilla of his generation.


how in the hell did you get the hendrix comparison.


if you Really break it down, in terms of a funky cat 'owning' his instrument, like hendrix owned his guitar, all due respect to jay dee--- love dilla, but in terms of live musicianship/showmanship/and a cat 'owning' the mpc, you'd have to give that to Araabmuzik right now.

jay dee is the dilla of his era. can we leave it at that?

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=2710250&mesg_id=2710250&page=#2712890

oh, wait, i just upped this