in the early-mid 00's people who liked traditionally east coast rap music with samples and sampled drums became marginalized and had their impact/relevancy to rap music - essentially erased.

i've discussed the conditions that lead to this occurring and the eventual white flight and loss of capital that followed in not only rap music but all black music in the ensuing years.
i have discussed where the term backpacker originated in new york and what it has come to mean in post-white flight rap music.
but what i see on the horizon now is very interesting to me.
you have the biggest rap acts in the genre, the trendsetters and the only people who have any sort of market share of the few remaining demographics that purchase rap records guiding the direction of the sound of the music into an ultra-pop/non-black/max martin version of rap as a means to grab any remaining capital possible by just sidestepping demographics that would be considered "rap fans" and vying directly for the pockets of becky & friends exclusively.

leaving the remaining rap fans marginalized and having their impact/relevancy to rap music - essentially erased.

but instead of gangstarr, pete rock, tribe called quest, etc. being the acts who enjoyed major mainstream popularity a few short years earlier who were relegated to fringe cult status through the invisible push of mainstream labels/media outlets.
imo it's going to be acts that tried to make a mainstream, albeit black version of rap just a few short years earlier.

you already saw what happened to 50 cent - who at one point was considered jay/snoop/diddy status.
i predict that a lot of acts like rick ross, waka, gucci mane, ti, etc. will be marginalized and branded as "irrelevant" unless they adopt this new even SLICKER than slick, white, pop-asthetic the same way all the sample-based rap acts from the 90's were.
and again, i ask myself - were the black eyed peas really "sell-outs"?
or is history going to prove they were just 10 years ahead of their time in the natural evolutionary phase of rap music?

i guess time will see if there is any resistance from the masses.
i certainly never thought in 1999 that people would be scoffing at sample-based rap because bet/radio stopped playing it just based of how good the music in the samples was compared to 2-note keyboard melodies.
it will be interesting if black audiences start calling all rap non-pop and white sounding "bammer" in a similar way they turned on sample-based rap because of what was publicized...
i believe if this happens, and i am more inclined to believe it will than won't, that it will lead to the backpacker-iziation of the regular contemporary rap fan.

Good Posting. Even though I agree with you most of everything you said, do you really think that white people can really COMPLETELY effectively dictate the black music aesthetic? Like, do you think succeeding generations will scoot closer to some lily white miley cyrus type shit?

And THEN, they bring it back to where it all started(us) and take credit for revolutionizing music?

crazier things have happened, i guess.

Lebron couldn't win a chip without two superstars from his draft class. He didn't just need help. The nigga needed the cheat code to enable god mode.(c)Kira

>Good Posting. Even though I agree with you most of everything
>you said, do you really think that white people can really
>COMPLETELY effectively dictate the black music aesthetic?

something i noticed about a decade ago was that we don't really have an aesthetic per say in america.
we take things white people do and flip them
and that is usually what becomes the alternative "black" style.
this ranges from everything to clothing to instruments.
there are black innovations - absolutely.
but the majority, especially in the last 20 years, is just re-stylings on existing "white" things.

with that said, have you not noticed in the last 5 years the dosage of "whiteness" in young black culture?
from clothing styles to things with "cool" factor?
odd future wolf gang were the biggest thing in rap last year and they can make somebody as white as peter rosenberg feel comfortable.

>Like, do you think succeeding generations will scoot closer to
>some lily white miley cyrus type shit?

it's always going to have a spin to make it different from the white version.
but black music has been going down a very "pop", very "white" avenue for the better part of 6 years now.
the writing has been on the wall.
but if contemporary rap fans, the ones who scoff at "backpackers" choose not to follow where the trendsetters take the rap genre,
they will be the dust - much like people who favored rap music from the 90's were left in the mid-00's.
if you think somebody like 2 chainz or a$ap bukkake is the future of rap music, despite maybe even being adorned with that phoney title - you're wrong, that is unless they adopt and adhere to this new emergent direction.
nicki minaj is going to debut likely at #1 anchored with a single that would make lmfao queezy.

this is a business.
and business follows where the money is - regardless of the expense on art/culture/influence.
i believe that people who aren't willing to get on board with this are going to be left in the dust just like "backpackers" were.

No gold or platinum albums until 1998. No singles that charted high on the Billboard 100 (Mass Appeal, their highest, got to 67 according to Wikipedia)

They were successful within their genre, but did not cross over (nor did I ever think they attempted to).

Do you have anything to suggest the contrary?

EDIT: I do agree with the premise of your post though.

___________________________
OL' DIRTY BASTARD on himself:
"I may curse, I may have a bad mouth, whatever whatever. I'm not that bad, yaknow'mean. Bad to y'all, I dunno how y'all... I don't give a fuck. Um, I'm a good person at heart, for real and shit.

there are a dozen other acts i could have named instead of them.
i guess i just thought premo and didn't censure myself.

>there are a dozen other acts i could have named instead of
>them.
>i guess i just thought premo and didn't censure myself.

they sold ~300K regularly and got enough exposure via MTV, BET through a major label

were able to promote a B-Side and make it a club hit in the early '90s

"middle class" rap isn't allowed through the usual channels in 2012

>>there are a dozen other acts i could have named instead of
>>them.
>>i guess i just thought premo and didn't censure myself.
>
>they sold ~300K regularly and got enough exposure via MTV, BET
>through a major label
>
>were able to promote a B-Side and make it a club hit in the
>early '90s
>
>"middle class" rap isn't allowed through the usual channels in
>2012

i mean 300k is pretty godly by today's rap standards but yeah that was "underground" by 1998 standards.
i should have named another example to tout for major mainstream success with sample-based music who were left in the dust when rap music evolved without their inclusion when stephen & friends took the helm.

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

back then and probably plat eventually.

http://i54.tinypic.com/2j51hj4.jpg

Jordan!

and I don't mean the music genre but of the wide view 'popular' music(major labels or album sales in the hundred thousands) ideal as opposed to 'underground' (death metal, polka, etc)

It's not as if a Pearl Jam could make it and seem relevant in this environment, or even a White Stripes if we have to be honest and they were just ten years removed.

The relevancy grinder eats everyone up in popular culture; no one is immune. Id argue it's WORSE in hip-hop since it's so forward leaning as far as looking for 'new sounds' (even if they are shitty). I do like the point about Black Eyed Peas though; with hip-hop being effectively pop music(now we switch back to the narrow TRL live genre view) for decades why not embrace it 100%?

>The relevancy grinder eats everyone up in popular culture; no
>one is immune. Id argue it's WORSE in hip-hop since it's so
>forward leaning as far as looking for 'new sounds' (even if
>they are shitty). I do like the point about Black Eyed Peas
>though; with hip-hop being effectively pop music(now we switch
>back to the narrow TRL live genre view) for decades why not
>embrace it 100%?

and with the AMOUNT of music that is "mainstream" diminishing with every passing month and only a few major acts getting the VAST majority of the remaining market share that still purchases albums...

where does that leave the remnants and profiteers of the old "hiphop industry" model that was helping print money for media giants from 96-01?

are these businesses and corporations going to willingly ignore and pretend that all these very POP rap acts that are dominating the genre in sales don't exist on the basis of integrity?
you think BET is going to impose a media blackout on a super-popular black rapper because they're too "mainstream"?

this is the next evolutionary phase of black music.
and people who don't follow suit are going to be left in the dust just like "backpackers" were a decade ago...

because it's a repeat of the exact same principle in action, just taken to a much further white-friendly and "commercial" extreme.

_______________________________________
When discourse of Blackness is not connected to efforts to promote collective black self determinism
it becomes simply another recourse appropriated by the colonizer

http://hardboiledbabesanddarkchocolate.tumblr.co

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

what else is the mechanism that leads black youth to abandon past music so easily and declared it 'irrelevant'.


they see black music as a 'continuum' and what ever is most popular currently the rock with it, they don't care that it was and still is a part of a 'genre'.

_______________________________________
When discourse of Blackness is not connected to efforts to promote collective black self determinism
it becomes simply another recourse appropriated by the colonizer

http://hardboiledbabesanddarkchocolate.tumblr.co

I feel like there's some stuff here I agree with, and other stuff that i'd like to see clarified.

>I feel like there's some stuff here I agree with, and other
>stuff that i'd like to see clarified.

at the end of the '90s, fans of sample-based hip hop were pushed into the margin in favor of the new keyboard-based trend; as the '00s passed through, the style of music was completely irrelevant and fans of such music were derided as backpackers.

now, with the rise of OONTZ-y "rap" music, fans of Rick Ross, and other artists who make the kind of rap championed as boom-bap rap was pushed out of the mainstream are in danger of becoming the new "backpackers", because the current 1/99 distribution model only has room for "white" pop music for rap.

i.e. Nicki Minaj's rise will be the fall of Ro$$, Waka, Jeezy, et al

and fans of that type of rap will look like fans of Mic Geronimo in 2012

she was never even in the same lane as them. she's on the rihanna, katy perry, gaga side.

<--- Big Baller World Order

>she was never even in the same lane as them. she's on the
>rihanna, katy perry, gaga side.

that's what the future of "mainstream rap" very well could be

a lot of "backpackers" were essentially just fans of mainstream rap who put their feet down and said - i'm not following this direction,
once mainstream rap started veering into another direction in the early 00's.

...and they were left behind.
(but what wasn't calculated was that a HUGE portion of them were the white buying audience that made up the rap sales boom of 1996-2001 and that loss of confidence in that demographic was partly responsible for what caused sales to dramatically drop.)

so today, if there is a large segment of remaining non-"backpacker" regular mainstream rap fans who put their foot down and say - i'm not following this new direction that has been becoming more and more emergent over the last 5 years - they will be left behind in exactly the same fashion as "backpackers" were.

because it's a repeat of the exact SAME scenario just taken to a more white-friendly, commercialized extreme than the commercial rap sound in the early-mid 00's that deterred many fans from continuing to support the genre.

and i get it... like i've touched on countless times,
there used to be a large portion of fans who were not a top 40 "pop" audience that still purchased rap records in massive numbers that totally evaporated in the last 10 years.
it used to be you didn't need to score a top 10 billboard hit to go multi-platinum.
but due to bootlegging and aforementioned white flight - that is no longer the reality of the mainstream rap in the music industry.

we often talk about first week numbers in rap music.
that's kind of a near-sighted outlook on the bigger issue of diminishing returns in the entire genre.
sure, lil wayne might be able to return a yield of a million buys even in 2011 and that's comparable to a successful first week in say 2001.
but what about everybody else outside of that elite circle of rap acts?
what are their first week numbers?
what is their ability to get booked for shows like?
etc.
i would imagine it is impossible for as many people to be earning a living in the rap portion of the entertainment industry compared to just 10 years ago due to what i've touched on.
so something has to give to allow people to earn a living and that is the type of rap music they make and the demographics they tap...
and if people identifiable as "rap fans" are viewed as increasingly less important to the profitability of rap music - they will not be catered to.

what percentage do you think of rap music's record sales are down from 2001-2011? i'd estimate easily a double-digit percentage, if not over 50%.
and that isn't just effecting lil wayne or drake's numbers.
that's effecting EVERYBODIES numbers.
all of the little smaller acts too.
...and because their yields and market share is so much smaller - it's effecting them much more than wayne or drake.

i can tell you from working in business and my own investments that if a yield drops even a FRACTION of what that likely percentage was in a 10 year span - somebody loses their job and there is a major overhaul made.
and with labels scaling back to only allow for only a few acts being publicized and eating up any of the remaining mainstream market share and mtv/bet only showing so few music videos anymore.
it's very plausible that somebody is going to be "cut" from the mainstream roster.
...and i can promise you right now that it won't be acts making white-friendly pop rap.

this is music/art but the driving forces is always capital.
and if you expect corporate entities to not follow where any remaining capital is this quarter on the basis of "keeping integrity" you are going to be left with a frown on your face bemoaning the present state of rap music like "backpackers" were circa 2003.

And because the driving force is capital the rap "middle class" will be kept around on a certain level as long as they bring in consistent money. Consistency is king right now as much as pop is king. Labels need both now more than ever. And keep in mind this slicker than slick pop cycle we're seeing is a part of the 80's twenty year cycle (slick 80's). The 80's cycle will be over by 2015 (and in come 90's) and "slicker than slick" will be irrelevant. So yes Black Eyed Peas are sellouts, but being that they came out in the 90's they may be able to adapt to the next cycle.

>this is music/art but the driving forces is always capital.
>and if you expect corporate entities to not follow where any
>remaining capital is this quarter on the basis of "keeping
>integrity" you are going to be left with a frown on your face
>bemoaning the present state of rap music like "backpackers"
>were circa 2003.

http://i54.tinypic.com/2j51hj4.jpg

>And because the driving force is capital the rap "middle
>class" will be kept around on a certain level as long as they
>bring in consistent money. Consistency is king right now as
>much as pop is king. Labels need both now more than ever. And
>keep in mind this slicker than slick pop cycle we're seeing is
>a part of the 80's twenty year cycle (slick 80's). The 80's
>cycle will be over by 2015 (and in come 90's) and "slicker
>than slick" will be irrelevant. So yes Black Eyed Peas are
>sellouts, but being that they came out in the 90's they may be
>able to adapt to the next cycle.

imo, cycles is a poor, uneducated explanation.
small parallels? sure.
cycles? no.
innovations make things obsolete.
that is a key concept of any introduction to business text.
technology changes, standards change.
the conditions that lead to the adherence of standards change.
corporations run everything.
what they want to succeed will ultimately be.

but keep up the circle jerk. If you're too stupid to see the many parallels, that's not something I can help you with.

http://i54.tinypic.com/2j51hj4.jpg

i introduced the word parallel into the conversation.
you said cycles as in something is going to come back in full-force after x amount of years have passed just through probability.
it really doesn't always work like that with style & art.
especially when corporations are at the helm of dictating what is popular as a means of profiteering from it.
i mean there are numerous examples to feed you from the last 150 years - things that happened are not going to "come back" but if you can't deduce that yourself - why bother?

You're reading things that aren't there. And I give a fuck what word you introduced nerd. I said nothing of full force. I obviously implied parallels because I'm referring to what has already happened in the past decade. I said already said it won't be exactly the same. You're not even qualified to speak on this so why bother? I'm done throwing pearls to swine. You're just a armchair A&R, zero credentials. And can't discuss intelligently with ppl who actually are qualified. And you don't even know who is who.

People like you are very out of touch and make it worse by pretending not to be.

And stop upping your bullshit ass posts.

>i introduced the word parallel into the conversation.
>you said cycles as in something is going to come back in
>full-force after x amount of years have passed just through
>probability.
>it really doesn't always work like that with style & art.
>especially when corporations are at the helm of dictating what
>is popular as a means of profiteering from it.
>i mean there are numerous examples to feed you from the last
>150 years - things that happened are not going to "come back"
>but if you can't deduce that yourself - why bother?

http://i54.tinypic.com/2j51hj4.jpg

>You're reading things that aren't there. And I give a fuck
>what word you introduced nerd. I said nothing of full force. I
>obviously implied parallels because I'm referring to what has
>already happened in the past decade. I said already said it
>won't be exactly the same. You're not even qualified to speak
>on this so why bother? I'm done throwing pearls to swine.
>You're just a armchair A&R, zero credentials. And can't
>discuss intelligently with ppl who actually are qualified. And
>you don't even know who is who.
>
>People like you are very out of touch and make it worse by
>pretending not to be.
>
>And stop upping your bullshit ass posts.

gensu, i am aware of who you are and your "qualifications".
perhaps if i told you who i am you would be of mine too.
but it doesn't matter on here.
we are all just lines of text espousing our feelings & positions.
personally, i believe you have a vested interest to sort of "believe" that things are "cyclical" and that the 90s or "sampling soul music from 50 years ago" will somehow continue on forever. but i don't agree. and i especially don't agree following some sort of mock-up time line that by 2015 it will be 20 years from whatever yadda yadda.
it happened, it peaked and now it's over.
i say move on with your life or suffer the consequences.

Nuff said.

http://i54.tinypic.com/2j51hj4.jpg

http://i54.tinypic.com/2j51hj4.jpg

It's the people that have the final say so in the music that they respect and love or just happen to listen to on the regular. If they don't respect it, they throw it away and get ready for any new flavor of the month act with the hot sound. Black people/the hip hop audience don't support the music as much as you think they do. They wait for other outlets to tell them what to like and listen to. As for those that don't follow the mainstream, they keep listening to their tapes, cds, and dusty ass records, rather than find new music on their own. IMO, thats like 90% of the problem with the music not going forward in a "respectable" direction or the direction that I think you're reffereng to.

We shouldn't even be putting the word black in the picture reffering the musical genre of hip hop. The majority of black people don't like hip hop and an even smaller sect can really be considered hip hop fans.

╭∩╮（︶︿︶）╭∩╮





www.last.fm/user/Tha_Abstract

tremendous, powerful posting.

do or die

http://i54.tinypic.com/2j51hj4.jpg

_______________________________________
When discourse of Blackness is not connected to efforts to promote collective black self determinism
it becomes simply another recourse appropriated by the colonizer

http://hardboiledbabesanddarkchocolate.tumblr.co

go roll by there & grab some

jst make sure u get it AFTER the sell by date, cop before that & u might do some time


do or die

i.e. GTFOOHWTPBJ

take care.

and perhaps the greatest response I've ever read on a message board.

Perhaps because the 'backpacker hip hop' thing in it of itself took things to such a geeky and nerdy level. But in critiquing that geek/nerd takeover of hip hop.....we have seen geekdom taken to heights never before seen. We are in unchartered territories here and David Bammer is a scenester without a scene.

as does the resurgence of hardcore rappers like meek millz and lil reese/chief keef
but sales matter.....not buzz so we'll see

~~~~~~

and i mean if nas had done <100k it would have been a colossal L wouldn't it?

Pink Friday is a pop album with huge single made by an artist at the probably height of her career who's associated with the two biggest pop rappers of the moment. Nas is an 40+ rapper who is 10 + years past his commercial prime who's associated Jungle. I'm shocked he did over 75k without a big single. Shows that theres an older hip hop audience out there who's still willing to buy albums.

>and i mean if nas had done <100k it would have been a
>colossal L wouldn't it?

~~~~~~

These are signs of the 90's 20 year cycle coming into play now. Albums like these being #1 will be very common again by 2015-2025ish. Samples won't be coming back as strong as then but "soulful" and "lyrical" will.

http://i54.tinypic.com/2j51hj4.jpg

I think it just shows people 30 and over are a viable demographic for hip hop. Kids in their tweens and twenties are doing their own thing entirely and this album has little to do with that. Who cares though? Rap fans of all ages/subgenres seem pretty happy with the genre overall these days.

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

.

chief keef will probably gain loads of non hip hop fans due to his music being simple and dumb as shit.....I personally believe in the minstrel show factor

----------
https://93millionmilesabove.blogspot.com/
https://rateyourmusic.com/~Kosa12

that's the point
rap that is consider "authentic" in the streets is being set up to be marketed and sold to the masses again
doesn't matter if you think it's cooning or not
1000s of young BLACK listeners love it in his home base and it's anti-pop

~~~~~~

now, i really don't want to sound like i'm hating on chief keef because he's like 13 years old.
but to be fair... he is sort of a b-grade waka who makes the same song over and over again.
i mean he's released dozens of songs since "i don't like" and people keep going back to that.
i really don't think he's going to ever HAVE another "i don't like".
where whatever label that threw a million dollars at him on the strength of his youtube hits for one video is failing is not shooting a REAL video for "i don't like" and having it out there like... last month.

meanwhile, the real waka/lex luger have only sold about 60k records of triple F in the nearly 1 month it's been out.

just some things to consider...

want sells
lil reese got a major deal with even LESS buzz/exposure than chief keef
the labels are willing to sell non pop if the people want non pop
they saw the response in chicago to that music and they think it can go national just like waka did
and it's not really about the quality of the music, that's subjective anyway
it's about whether or not these artists can be themselves and still get major label push
we know for a fact nikki minaj changed her whole style , went from wearing doorags rapping about murders to wearing pink wigs doing pop, just to get Baby and the majors to invest in her
if dudes like chief keef and meek millz can get major budgets behind them doing rap the way they want to do it ...which is "real rap/hip hop" whether yall agree or not then that kind of disproves this thread

~~~~~~

>if dudes like chief keef and meek millz can get major budgets
>behind them doing rap the way they want to do it ...which is
>"real rap/hip hop" whether yall agree or not then that kind of
>disproves this thread

if that happens i'm not too pigheaded to concede.
but i don't know...
how many times did we see this same scenario in the 00's?
all the got-signed-but-never-came-out mixtape/dvd rappers with small hood buzz that we were promised they would "take things back" or "change the game" in some way for the "better".

the reason they never came out is because the white people in charge of the labels they were signed to didn't see any returns worth gambling on.
which begs the question - why did they even get signed in the first place? which i weighed here last week:

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=2723050&mesg_id=2723050&page=

That and the liability of uncleared samples make synth beats more attractive to push by the labels. When the purchasing went down and liabilities went up, the tightening of the belt resulted in the economy beats getting pushed. I remember in the mid 2000s when labels were scouting for beats and the usual disclaimer was "no samples". Also, if a single has samples that means the profits get divided more, so pushing non sample stuff meant more $$. The problem today is that despite all the options and capabilities of synths, the aesthetic is pretty lazy. History repeats itslef, tough...because if everything sounds the same, the "cool" thing will be the one that sounds different. I don't see labels turning their backs on promoting economy clearance free beats.

-------------------------
“The other dude after me didn’t help my case. It was just like…crazy nigga factory going on.”
Dre makes no apologies for his own eccentricities. “I was young, and searching, trying to find myself,” he says. “Never did.”-- Andre B

Running the early 00's.

Samples are more expensive, they aren't totally off the table it seems.

the audience has responded more to the non-sample based hip hop, imo.

one
k. orr

>the audience has responded more to the non-sample based hip
>hop, imo.

to the remaining fans of rap music - samples mean nothing.
but to all the fans that were lost from attrition, particularly the white one's who bought all those rap records from 96-01 - they matter quite significantly.
go look at the youtube comments on any 1990's sample-based rap video - regardless of how good it even was when it was out - if you think i'm selling wolf tickets.

>to the remaining fans of rap music - samples mean nothing.

it's not like older fans were or have been all that discerning when it comes to style of production.

I don't know any real fan of hip hop that didn't like the Neptunes and Timbaland's sample lite approach. Same with Mannie Fresh and Beats by the Pound, and countless other producers who weren't digging in the crates.

>but to all the fans that were lost from attrition,
>particularly the white one's who bought all those rap records
>from 96-01 - they matter quite significantly.

i still can't figure out how you know what group of people was buying what. You certainly can't get that from sound scan. And it's not like white kids 1) monolithic, 2) only like certain kinds of hip hop.

I've gone to some G-shit, white kids everywhere.
I've gone to some backpacker stuff, white kids everywhere.

In the fact the only time I know i'm gonna see a majority black crowd, is something like Essence fest

>go look at the youtube comments on any 1990's sample-based rap
>video - regardless of how good it even was when it was out -
>if you think i'm selling wolf tickets.

I typically can't tell the race of youtube repliers.

one
k. orr

ok so you're arguing the conditions and popularity of rap music haven't changed since 2001?

there was a demographic of white dollar purchasers that existed from 96-01 that dissipated from the genre when the BET/corporations imposed "party all the time" rap in about 2002 onward...

reason being: white people or white men specifically wanted a ghetto tour guide.
put that over a loop from a great song from the 1970's and you have the "golden era" of rap music from a sales point of view.

NWA, onyx, DMX were 3 of the biggest selling rap acts and most popular rap acts with white men. not by coincidence.

>ok so you're arguing the conditions and popularity of rap
>music haven't changed since 2001?

No, i'm not saying that.


>there was a demographic of white dollar purchasers that
>existed from 96-01 that dissipated from the genre when the
>BET/corporations imposed "party all the time" rap in about
>2002 onward...

yeah, I don't know where this "fact" of yours is coming from.
It seems awfully convenient for your argument.

>reason being: white people or white men specifically wanted a
>ghetto tour guide.
>put that over a loop from a great song from the 1970's and you
>have the "golden era" of rap music from a sales point of
>view.

Yeah, I just don't think all white folks operate that way.

Are there some that get some kind of voyeuristic thrill, but it's the same black cats bumping rick ross on the way to their consulting jobs.

>NWA, onyx, DMX were 3 of the biggest selling rap acts and most
>popular rap acts with white men. not by coincidence.

Where does this "fact" come from?
What is your source?

k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

>>ok so you're arguing the conditions and popularity of rap
>>music haven't changed since 2001?
>
>No, i'm not saying that.
>
>
>>there was a demographic of white dollar purchasers that
>>existed from 96-01 that dissipated from the genre when the
>>BET/corporations imposed "party all the time" rap in about
>>2002 onward...
>
>yeah, I don't know where this "fact" of yours is coming from.
>It seems awfully convenient for your argument.

the fact is simply through observation.
rap sales dropped from the early 00's onward, partly due to bootlegging but partly due to lack of interest from the genre's biggest purchaser.
i have already explained this in great detail.
but again, if you think i'm lying go anywhere where rap from 1996-2001 that largely contains samples is located and look to see if there are any other brown faces.
i mean just look at the records and sales in 1998-1999-2000 alone pertaining to rap music.
that was the peak period of rap music as a commercial commodity and it was due to a swell of white fans.
if you can't recognize that without me showing you venn diagrams and shit - then this exchange is a waste of time.
but thanks for your replies.

>i have already explained this in great detail.

I'll just let you cook.

carry on,
k. orr

ok, YOU convince ME otherwise.
come up with an explanation that attempts to weigh and consider all things involved in their present state in contrast to previous...
i will read every word and reply to every point i agree or feel the need to refute.
show me something...

I'll go the distance with you, no prob.

Cause the more I read this post, the more i'm unsure of your overarching argument.

one
k. orr

you prove to me how and where i'm wrong from your own deduction of present events in contrast to previous and the route on how it got this way.

*********************
www.dumhi.com -- We are ALL dumhi

it's a shame.

http://i54.tinypic.com/2j51hj4.jpg

The keyboard beat era started in the late '90s and only lasted 2-3 years.

After that sample based music was just as popular as synthy beats from people like The Neptunes, Timbaland, Lil' Jon, etc and was popular concurrently.

Pop rappers like Minaj, Flo Rida, BEP, etc are not leaders in the culture. No one is following them.

In addition, "Mercy", a song with several samples, is a pop hit. It's currently #13 on the Billboard top 100.

The Pete Rocks and D.I.T.Cs of the late '90s put the nail in their own coffin by creating an "us vs. them" paradigm. It wasn't the fault of Swizz Beatz and his ilk.

mind
--------
matter

>The keyboard beat era started in the late '90s and only
>lasted 2-3 years.
>
>After that sample based music was just as popular as synthy
>beats from people like The Neptunes, Timbaland, Lil' Jon, etc
>and was popular concurrently.

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=2642986&mesg_id=2642986&listing_type=search#2643911

>Pop rappers like Minaj, Flo Rida, BEP, etc are not leaders in
>the culture. No one is following them.

oh really?
collectively they are a few of the most popular black acts of the past 10 years.

>In addition, "Mercy", a song with several samples, is a pop
>hit. It's currently #13 on the Billboard top 100.

touche. although it's just a vocal sample.
the beat is very much not a sample, right?
i mean if we're gauging based on that then niggas in paris had samples too... but i wouldn't call that a sample really per say.

>The Pete Rocks and D.I.T.Cs of the late '90s put the nail in
>their own coffin by creating an "us vs. them" paradigm. It
>wasn't the fault of Swizz Beatz and his ilk.

really? i would swear it was based on the fact they all got dropped by major labels and ignored by BET starting from 2002 onward...

Got it.

>>The keyboard beat era started in the late '90s and only
>>lasted 2-3 years.
>>
>>After that sample based music was just as popular as synthy
>>beats from people like The Neptunes, Timbaland, Lil' Jon,
>etc
>>and was popular concurrently.
>
>http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=2642986&mesg_id=2642986&listing_type=search#2643911

Now look at the number one hits from those years and see how many had samples.

>>Pop rappers like Minaj, Flo Rida, BEP, etc are not leaders
>in
>>the culture. No one is following them.
>
>oh really?
>collectively they are a few of the most popular black acts of
>the past 10 years.

No one is following them. No one.

>>In addition, "Mercy", a song with several samples, is a pop
>>hit. It's currently #13 on the Billboard top 100.
>
>touche. although it's just a vocal sample.
>the beat is very much not a sample, right?
>i mean if we're gauging based on that then niggas in paris had
>samples too... but i wouldn't call that a sample really per
>say.

There are 4 samples on that song. 2 vocal, one beat and the hook is chopped and screwed.

>>The Pete Rocks and D.I.T.Cs of the late '90s put the nail in
>>their own coffin by creating an "us vs. them" paradigm. It
>>wasn't the fault of Swizz Beatz and his ilk.
>
>really? i would swear it was based on the fact they all got
>dropped by major labels and ignored by BET starting from 2002
>onward...

Why did they get dropped? Because they didn't sell. Why didn't they sell? Because no one wants to sit thru an album of someone whinning about real hip-hop and how the culture dying. Shut up and make a hot record. They did it to themselves by becoming relics.

mind
--------
matter

>in the early-mid 00's people who liked traditionally east
>coast rap music with samples and sampled drums became
>marginalized and had their impact/relevancy to rap music -
>essentially erased.

David argues that from 2000-2005,
- the people who liked traditional east coast rap became marginalized, and their influence as an audience was essentially erased

1) The decline of the "traditional east coast rap" audience came WAY before the 2000's.

The Chronic and Doggy style, as much as they sampled, pretty much opened the flood gates for hip hop that didn't have that boom bap sound.

1996 saw both Cash Money and No Limit Records bring a New Orleans Bounce style into the mix.

1998 gave us Swizz Beats.

Somewhere in there Timbaland and the Neptunes were crafting their sound and doing big #'s with it.

And ATL was becoming much bigger than Dungeon Family and Jermaine Dupri.

But as all of that happened between 94-00,

A very important record dropped on 9/11/2001 - The Blueprint, which for many critics, hailed the return of sampling.

Let us all be clear, the Blueprint was a HUGE album.

Jay followed that with the Black Album, which many consider to be his masterpiece, and it too was sample heavy.

If anything, 00-2005 was the RESURGENCE of popular mc's using a traditional east coast sound to take over the airwaves.

a quick sampling of big songs from those years

01 - Just Like Music - Erick Sermon
02 - Oh Boy - Cam'Ron (and Dipset was very sample heavy)
03 - Pump it Up - Joe Buddens - jacking one of the most loved samples in hip hop
04 - Slow Jamz - Twista
05 - Go Crazy - Young Jeezy

I could go on, but you've got folks from LI, Harlem, New Jerz, Chicago, and ATL pushing that sampled sound making major noise.

So from the very beginning, Mr. Bammer has his history wrong.

And this is the foundation of his argument.

Without the foundation, the house does not stand.

>i've discussed the conditions that lead to this occurring and
>the eventual white flight and loss of capital that followed in
>not only rap music but all black music in the ensuing years.

I've already kicked out the legs on this one,

But something must be said about this idea of "white flight"

Mr. Bammer has, in my mind at least,never fleshed out the idea.

But according to him, white people en masse stopped listening to either 1) rap music as a whole, 2) particular sub-genres of rap music - namely the so-called "backpacker genre"

Now, I don't know about you, but I have a very tight definition of what a backpacker is. Tommy Hilfiger, Jansport, Timberlands...fan of nyc hip hop from 93-97, with love for groups like the Alkaholiks. I consider them to be Heads, short for hip hop heads.

Now the group that came later, or evolved from this group of heads, is what a lot of folks refer to as backpackers. Into Boho stuff like the Roots/Blackstar, and also things like Anticon and Antipop Consortium with a shout to project blowed, atmosphere, living legends, company flow, el-p, aesop rock.

Those people had their own big time message board.

But # wise, we're talking less than 5,000 people US. if Buck 65 did a show, it might bring in 50-300 people. (Where the roots might rock a crowd of 2-3000 people)

So from an economic stand point, if Sole's 1,000 or so fans decided to jump into the Fleet Foxes camp, it wouldn't make any kind of dent to the hip hop underground.

So if these particular white folks who listened to "backpacker" music bounced, no one would notice, because backpacker music was never moving units, much less the hip hop nation in the 1st place.

1) I first challenged David Bammer on this concept 6 months ago

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=2649693&mesg_id=2649693&listing_type=search#2649698

"this lends credence to my theory on white flight from rap music in relation to a) lost music of the 00's b) the music of 02-04 being completely forgotten already." - bammer

"this happened?" - k_orr

2) "the genre had already experienced a major white flight in (it's biggest and most profitable) demographic that purchased it's product from 1996-2001." -

david bammer from - http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=2657926&mesg_id=2657926&listing_type=search

"even as white flight from black genres occured due to lack of interest."

"you can trace the white flight from the genre from about 2002 on.
i mean i already talked about where the contemporary usage of the term "backpacker" came from at great lengths."


D has gone on at length about the "white flight" from hip hop, but as i've said earlier
- the backpack scene was already tiny
- if you include stuff like the Soulquarians with the same people that Linda Tripp - The scene is still small compared to the overall hip hop market.

I don't think there was any white flight to begin with.
And even if there white folks stopped supporting this small group of artists, those artists weren't popular to begin with.


>i have discussed where the term backpacker originated in new
>york and what it has come to mean in post-white flight rap
>music.

I take issue with this post-white flight rap concept.
Please see above

>but what i see on the horizon now is very interesting to me.
>you have the biggest rap acts in the genre, the trendsetters
>and the only people who have any sort of market share of the
>few remaining demographics that purchase rap records guiding
>the direction of the sound of the music into an
>ultra-pop/non-black/max martin version of rap as a means to
>grab any remaining capital possible by just sidestepping
>demographics that would be considered "rap fans" and vying
>directly for the pockets of becky & friends exclusively.

Yeah, I just don't see the world this way.

Is he talking about Jay and Kanye?
Rick Ross, Drake, or Wayne?

Ye' definitely has shades of electronica.
Drake sings.
Wayne wants to play the guitar...

But the conscious push to grab suburban white teenager dollars?

Really?

And this approach,this argument, also denies black agency.

The push towards Electronica/oontz oontz/"dancey" black music is

1) not new - please see Techno, House, and various other musics that were either invented by, pioneered by, and definitely enjoyed by black people all over the country, and has been for DECADES.

2) embraced by black american teenagers all over the country - Rihiana and Usher aren't just being played in Laguna Beach, but they get love in Compton.

>leaving the remaining rap fans marginalized and having their
>impact/relevancy to rap music - essentially erased.

Black Rap fans, much like white, latino, and asian rap fans - follow the trends.

Maybe, a black rap fan is 2 nano-seconds ahead of his white/asian/latino counterpart on banging Kendrick Lamar...but chances are high that most black fans are grabbing their new joints from white and asian dudes with blogs, or off of filesharing network, where eastern europeans digitize everything.

All that to say, that you're going to find a mix of people loving each and every rap style.

In Houston for example, you'll find a significant white and latino market for "screw music". Which is as black as rap can get in Texas, given that most of the lyrics refer to stuff only happening in black neighborhoods of Houston. Most of the slang is from those hoods.

>but instead of gangstarr, pete rock, tribe called quest, etc.
>being the acts who enjoyed major mainstream popularity a few
>short years earlier who were relegated to fringe cult status
>through the invisible push of mainstream labels/media
>outlets.

Depending on how you define popularity.
The hey day for Pete Rock was 92.
Tribe peaked around 96, but they continued to sell based on their past work.
Gangstarr has done well, but never super star status.

The key to keep in mind is that these groups in the later days weren't multi-platinum, song of the summer, heavy rotation artists.

They were largely fringe, imo, during those times.

>imo it's going to be acts that tried to make a mainstream,
>albeit black version of rap just a few short years earlier.
>
>you already saw what happened to 50 cent - who at one point
>was considered jay/snoop/diddy status.
>i predict that a lot of acts like rick ross, waka, gucci mane,
>ti, etc. will be marginalized and branded as "irrelevant"
>unless they adopt this new even SLICKER than slick, white,
>pop-asthetic the same way all the sample-based rap acts from
>the 90's were.

TI already rapped over Crystal Waters, so I'm not sure where your argument is going.

>and again, i ask myself - were the black eyed peas really
>"sell-outs"?
>or is history going to prove they were just 10 years ahead of
>their time in the natural evolutionary phase of rap music?

^This is the bulk of his argument, imo.

>i guess time will see if there is any resistance from the
>masses.
>i certainly never thought in 1999 that people would be
>scoffing at sample-based rap because bet/radio stopped playing
>it just based of how good the music in the samples was
>compared to 2-note keyboard melodies.
>it will be interesting if black audiences start calling all
>rap non-pop and white sounding "bammer" in a similar way they
>turned on sample-based rap because of what was publicized...

Again, this defies history, given how much love sample based hip hop got with Kanye, Just Blaze, and the Heat Makerz.

>i believe if this happens, and i am more inclined to believe
>it will than won't, that it will lead to the
>backpacker-iziation of the regular contemporary rap fan.

one
k. orr

>in the early-mid 00's people who liked traditionally east
>coast rap music with samples and sampled drums became
>marginalized and had their impact/relevancy to rap music -
>essentially erased.
>
>i've discussed the conditions that lead to this occurring and
>the eventual white flight and loss of capital that followed in
>not only rap music but all black music in the ensuing years.
>i have discussed where the term backpacker originated in new
>york and what it has come to mean in post-white flight rap
>music.
>but what i see on the horizon now is very interesting to me.
>you have the biggest rap acts in the genre, the trendsetters
>and the only people who have any sort of market share of the
>few remaining demographics that purchase rap records guiding
>the direction of the sound of the music into an
>ultra-pop/non-black/max martin version of rap as a means to
>grab any remaining capital possible by just sidestepping
>demographics that would be considered "rap fans" and vying
>directly for the pockets of becky & friends exclusively.
>
>leaving the remaining rap fans marginalized and having their
>impact/relevancy to rap music - essentially erased.
>
>but instead of gangstarr, pete rock, tribe called quest, etc.
>being the acts who enjoyed major mainstream popularity a few
>short years earlier who were relegated to fringe cult status
>through the invisible push of mainstream labels/media
>outlets.
>imo it's going to be acts that tried to make a mainstream,
>albeit black version of rap just a few short years earlier.
>
>you already saw what happened to 50 cent - who at one point
>was considered jay/snoop/diddy status.
>i predict that a lot of acts like rick ross, waka, gucci mane,
>ti, etc. will be marginalized and branded as "irrelevant"
>unless they adopt this new even SLICKER than slick, white,
>pop-asthetic the same way all the sample-based rap acts from
>the 90's were.
>and again, i ask myself - were the black eyed peas really
>"sell-outs"?
>or is history going to prove they were just 10 years ahead of
>their time in the natural evolutionary phase of rap music?
>
>i guess time will see if there is any resistance from the
>masses.
>i certainly never thought in 1999 that people would be
>scoffing at sample-based rap because bet/radio stopped playing
>it just based of how good the music in the samples was
>compared to 2-note keyboard melodies.
>it will be interesting if black audiences start calling all
>rap non-pop and white sounding "bammer" in a similar way they
>turned on sample-based rap because of what was publicized...
>i believe if this happens, and i am more inclined to believe
>it will than won't, that it will lead to the
>backpacker-iziation of the regular contemporary rap fan.

that the fans of the current music aesthetic stand to become marginalized if a new, more mainstream and pop aesthetic becomes popular.

this is probably true, but it also *has* been true in pretty much every 20th century form of music.

i'm sure big band jazz fans got pushed out for bop and hard bop and jazz of the 50's and the same thing happened to the bop and cool jazz folks when free and smooth jazz hit in the 60's and 70's. and jazz overall got marginalized when funk and disco grew popular in the late 70's.

you do bring up an interesting point about black aesthetics reinterpreting or recontextualizing white culture by another standard of thought. what you said there seems to make sense since the forms of culture that survived the passage of men and women from Africa to the West was stripped from them, but those men and women still had a sense of the ways they lived their life back home so they co-opted the European ways and made them more familiar.

but while you didn't say this, you seem to be asking, if hip-hop REALLY goes pop, will it be hip-hop in anything besides a loose association?

__________________________________________

http://www.twitter.com/chriscjamison/

People who don't take risks generally make about two big mistakes a year. People who do take risks generally make about two big mistakes a year.

Peter Drucker

_______________________________________
When discourse of Blackness is not connected to efforts to promote collective black self determinism
it becomes simply another recourse appropriated by the colonizer

http://hardboiledbabesanddarkchocolate.tumblr.co

I have a few friends in the industry who are/were hardcore backpackers in the 90's... off the dome freestyle, ASR keyboard sampling, hip hop encylcapedia types...

these niggas are 30+, dress like they are in the 80's and write songs for 14 year old white chicks. Shits disgusting but it pays the bills...

Most of the songs suck azzz but that's what the labels want. It's insane to bet/swim against the new wave/youth movement once you made it into the industry.

Every once and a while they will do some art shit with an urban act but no one cops it or it gets the "critical acclaim" while going wood on the charts.