.

Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

--
Sometimes you have to look reality in the face and say 'No!'
-Ben (Reaper)

If you need any help, don't. Hesitate to ask.

its always the same people too..

no matter how many times they get burned they always reach out on some “hey, check this out when you have a minute”

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC5lsemxaJo

...I'm from the era when A.I. was the answer, now they think ai is the answer - Marlon Craft

I feel like the last few years/decades show that people need something to believe in. I'd rather it be someone who died 2000 years ago and their is a body of knowledge and history to draw on as opposed to JIm Jones.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

>I feel like the last few years/decades show that people need
>something to believe in. I'd rather it be someone who died
>2000 years ago and their is a body of knowledge and history to
>draw on as opposed to JIm Jones.

"If it's a lie, then we fight on that lie." huh?

both options are "god" awful

how about disposing with the NEED to believe in "something," entirely

>**********
>"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then
>they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
>
>"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

________________________________________________

The ULTIMATE negation of everything.

The space between despair and orgasm is hard to fill ~ Maron

And I am not sure there is a truth.

But we are hard wired to believe in something. Look at your language:

"how about disposing with the NEED to believe in "something," entirely"

You highlighted "NEED". How can you dispose of something you need?

If we can get rid of it, then we don't need it.

And I am not even a moral relativist. All belief systems aren't equal.

So I advocate on belief systems not based on whether they are truth or lie, I advocate based on whether they improve people's lives.

Some people center their life around the gym. Who am I to knock if it has them healthy and living well?

Everything can be abused. A religion based on loving your neighbor got exploited into turning other people into slaves.

You want people to get off religion, that's cool but you have anything better?


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

however, we know this stuff harms people because it's used to suppress, stifle, limit the choices of others. you're made to feel less that when you don't believe in god or religion.

going to the gym isn't affecting large swaths of humanity. nobody does pushups before eating or raiding the capital.

Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

________________________________________________

The ULTIMATE negation of everything.

The space between despair and orgasm is hard to fill ~ Maron

pardon the wait I was in the middle of a pool game(s)

>And I am not sure there is a truth.

the truth is that that's a lie

>But we are hard wired to believe in something. Look at your
>language:

our proclivity as a species towards believing in something we can't readily prove is not a biological imperative

>"how about disposing with the NEED to believe in "something,"
>entirely"
>
>You highlighted "NEED". How can you dispose of something you
>need?

my bad, I mistyped, should've went w/ disposing of the notion

>If we can get rid of it, then we don't need it.
>
>And I am not even a moral relativist. All belief systems
>aren't equal.
>
>So I advocate on belief systems not based on whether they are
>truth or lie, I advocate based on whether they improve
>people's lives.

by a vast majority of accounts it does just the opposite, and the evidence of such ain't anecdotal

>Some people center their life around the gym. Who am I to
>knock if it has them healthy and living well?

see my latter response

>Everything can be abused. A religion based on loving your
>neighbor got exploited into turning other people into slaves.

I agree, also, see the latter response

>You want people to get off religion, that's cool but you have
>anything better?

philosophy?
>**********
>"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then
>they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
>
>"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

________________________________________________

The ULTIMATE negation of everything.

The space between despair and orgasm is hard to fill ~ Maron

>And I am not sure there is a truth.

There is no "a" truth. Truth is proposition dependent.

1 + 1 = 2 is true, dependent upon given definitions of one, plus, equals, and two.

1 + 1 = 2 is true based on the normative and practical definitions of those terms.

Sure, we can start changing those definitions, but then it quickly falls apart, becoming something that is no longer useful in the process.

>But we are hard wired to believe in something. Look at your
>language:

No, we have a historical tendency to seek answers to life's biggest questions- and by and large, the "answers" that are derived from religion are based on imagination, not demonstrable reality.

>"how about disposing with the NEED to believe in "something,"
>entirely"
>
>You highlighted "NEED". How can you dispose of something you
>need?

I think this is simply playing on words. Can you demonstrate that humans "need" to believe in religious concepts? I say that the most you can do is demonstrate that we historically have, but that doesn't demonstrate that we do so because we have a "need" in a literal sense.

Rather, it demonstrates that we have a strong desire to answer certain questions. the belief in religious concepts is simply a method of attempting to answer those questions.

I think you are confusing the place for the map on this point.

>I advocate based on whether they improve
>people's lives.

>Some people center their life around the gym. Who am I to
>knock if it has them healthy and living well?

Agreed- but if that gym routine caused significant and demonstrable harm to the world around that person, it's a different discussion.

>Everything can be abused. A religion based on loving your
>neighbor got exploited into turning other people into slaves.

Was it based on loving your neighbor though?

Christianity is based on belief that a god sacrificed itself to itself to allow people to atone for a set of rules it created, but only if said people believe that this happened. The real kicker here is that this "gift" comes with the threat of eternal torment if you don't accept it.

That's a much more accurate description of what Christianity is based on, and it's anything but love thy neighbor. It's believe this or else.

>You want people to get off religion, that's cool but you have
>anything better?

Secular humanism, for starters.

But that's a very broad question, as though there must be some other alternative that serves as an all-encompassing umbrella.

The alternative is piecemeal, and starts with abandoning religion.

-Sig-

“Why didn’t you do this in your own god damn country?"

-All Stah's view on undocumented immigrants wanting to be treated like human beings.

human beings run on faith/belief. We have to believe in something more in order to make progress. It is how we're made.

It's not an accident that a good chunk of the early philosophers and scientists were men of faith

>human beings run on faith/belief. We have to believe in
>something more in order to make progress. It is how we're
>made.

Our progress directly coincides with a decrease in religious beliefs.
Even those who retain religious beliefs largely do so on an exponentially dogmatic scale than their ancestors, up to and including explaining away or flat out ignoring the most vile and problematic elements of religion.

>It's not an accident that a good chunk of the early
>philosophers and scientists were men of faith

Agreed. The vast majority of the world believed in a god at the time. so it's a statistical certainty that a good chunk of nearly any discipline would be people of faith.

-Sig-

“Why didn’t you do this in your own god damn country?"

-All Stah's view on undocumented immigrants wanting to be treated like human beings.

At my gym is only young immigrant kids who love Tate. Religious ones too. Not sure why or what the appeal is for them.

>Religious ones too. Not sure why or what the appeal is for
>them.

but I also hear that young men are spending less time interacting with women and more time online.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

>but I also hear that young men are spending less time
>interacting with women and more time online.


Right society as a whole is going in 2 different extreme directions

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

haven't had sex as adults.

these graphs show: https://imgur.com/a/REt6s1E

things are not going well for a lot of people. people are losing togetherness recipes. you see it on every level: families, friendships, romantic relationships, strangers in a city, national politics..and so on.

my take (basically): the smartphone simulates connection but has actually driven people apart from one another. texting with a friend vs talking on the phone for 15 min. one transmits way more meaning, actually forges bonds. online interaction is mostly a sham. falling in love, laughing with friends, getting to know anyone--all these are better done in person (or at least a phone call where u talk spontaneously). we've moved away from that and an alarming number of the young people born into the smartphone world are not doing well. suicide, self-harm, isolation are on the rise.

religious participation has been declining in america (i know there are exceptions) since wwii. religion wasn't just about the word of god in the good book. it was the center of folks' social world. it was community. secular attempts to replace this have not been successful.

many of them have been weird, sending all sorts of mixed messages. so kids are raised into a world with no ideology to follow that will lead them down a path to prosperity, happiness, a circle of love around them and such.

hm just rambling here, my point is that it is not generally acknowledged that we are in bad shape as a nation when it comes to getting along with one another.

people like to blame the other side politically. but it's both sides that are fucked up because both sides have phones/internet and suffer from the confusion, false connection, negative feelings they drum up in so many

to your point, it's much easier to send a message vs calling. relationships seem more transaction based. I'm sure that's always been the case, but now we can see it more clearly because of the tools.

we can share a ton of info, but the nuances of in person or even on call communication can't be conveyed the same way electronically.

the internet is a great connector and divider at the same time.

Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

>religious participation has been declining in america (i know
>there are exceptions) since wwii. religion wasn't just about
>the word of god in the good book.

The "good" in the "good book" pales in comparison to the monstrous bad, up to and including homicide, genocide, slavery, and more.

I mean, god murdered the entire population in that book.

A supposedly perfect god that made a multitude of mistakes, starting by giving his first two human creations an order not to eat of the fruit that would grant them the sort of knowledge that they would need in order to grasp the actual consequences of their action, and then punishing not only them, but all of humanity, as punishment.

What's good about that? That's horrific.

That's before he drowns the entire world to death.

or decides to harden the heart of the leader of the nation supposedly enslaving his people, then murdering the first born child of every house that didn't have it's doorway covered in blood, as a way to send a message.

That's a mafia boss tactic. There's nothing good about that.

The list of atrocities is ridiculously long before we get to the warm & fuzzy Jesus, and that still doesn't fix it.

it was the center of folks'
>social world. it was community.

So was Nazism.

Does that mean it was good?

Does being the center of people's social world and community make it good?

I'd say no, particularly in light of the facts that he religion was largely spread under the threat of death at worst, or being shunned at best. Not good options.

With that community comes social pressure to go along to get along. There's a dark, insidious underbelly to that benefit.

secular attempts to replace
>this have not been successful.

What are the secular attempts to replace religion, specifically, and how have they failed?

>many of them have been weird, sending all sorts of mixed
>messages. so kids are raised into a world with no ideology

So no religion= no ideology?

Can you actually make that case?

>follow that will lead them down a path to prosperity,
>happiness, a circle of love around them and such.

So is church membership always the path to prosperity, happiness, and a circle of love?

Because there are countless people who have the exact opposite of that story.

-Sig-

“Why didn’t you do this in your own god damn country?"

-All Stah's view on undocumented immigrants wanting to be treated like human beings.

nice bars, respect.

2nd, you're reading me completely wrong on religion. my point was it was a system of social regulation for (in places) a thousand plus years that has since wwii unraveled very quickly. there's good and there's bad to any change like this. we need to acknowledge it and see what we can do to promote communities to replace it. because if we sit idly by the Andrew Tates of the world will fill the void.

and people doing everything less and less in person makes all this harder. i think prioritizing in-person conversations among many different sorts of people is a good start. online info silos are not the world of people out there

>nice bars, respect.
>
>2nd, you're reading me completely wrong on religion.

I was blind, but now I see.

my point
>was it was a system of social regulation for (in places) a
>thousand plus years that has since wwii unraveled very
>quickly. there's good and there's bad to any change like this.
>we need to acknowledge it and see what we can do to promote
>communities to replace it. because if we sit idly by the
>Andrew Tates of the world will fill the void.
>
>and people doing everything less and less in person makes all
>this harder. i think prioritizing in-person conversations
>among many different sorts of people is a good start. online
>info silos are not the world of people out there
>

Agreed.

However, I do not believe there to be "a" solution, because where religion is an institutional catchall with inbuilt defense mechanisms, and a millennia head start, "the" solution is nascent and piecemeal, largely addressing individual issues in different ways.

Unfortunately, part of that solution is ripping off the band-aid.

I don't forsee any large-scale, imminent exodus from religion, but we are seeing an increasingly strong trickle. I also think it's pertinent to still address the far simpler and more pressing question of whether or not it's actually true, regardless of whether we have a replacement ready to go. I think this is a process.

But I definitely get where you're coming from.

-Sig-

“Why didn’t you do this in your own god damn country?"

-All Stah's view on undocumented immigrants wanting to be treated like human beings.

My point is, got a better alternative to religion?

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

any sort of deity, what are they doing?

you don't need to believe in a higher power to exist in the world. folks generally know the basics. it's not that hard.

Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

>any sort of deity, what are they doing?
>
>you don't need to believe in a higher power to exist in the
>world. folks generally know the basics. it's not that hard.

who is “folks” that “know the basics”?

Sounds like you spend too much time on the internet too lol

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

I'm generalizing, but folks know the basics.

don't steal from people. pretty simple concept. you don't need god for that. whether you choose to follow the basics might be in question.

Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

>I'm generalizing, but folks know the basics.
>
>don't steal from people. pretty simple concept. you don't need
>god for that. whether you choose to follow the basics might be
>in question.

What does “don’t steal” entail? Toilet paper at work? Corporate embezzling? How many actual people do you know that “don’t steal” on any level and are full blown atheist or “agnostic”?

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

in question. that has nothing to do with believing in god or not. that's choices that people make.

are you playing robin hood with the toilet paper? is it yours to take home? your coworkers can't clean their butts because somebody took the tp and is now selling it?? how's that not stealing?

when has embezzling ever not been steeling? lol

I'm not suggesting that anybody is free from doing something illegal or unethical. sometimes circumstances dictate decisions and you do things you wouldn't normally do. knowing the basics and doing them are not the same. again, that has nothing to do with god or lack there of.

Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

"knowing the basics" that's some internet tree hugger bs lol

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

that comes from your community. if you're in a gang, gang shit is your measure of morality. if you're in a cult, cult shit is your morality.

Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

>that comes from your community. if you're in a gang, gang
>shit is your measure of morality. if you're in a cult, cult
>shit is your morality.

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

doesn’t mean they won’t do it.

I do believe some savages lack a conscious or shut that shit off but most sane folks knkw right from wrong.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

How many actual people do you know that
>“don’t steal” on any level and are full blown atheist or
>“agnostic”?

aetheist or agnostic folks don't believe in not stealing?

> How many actual people do you know that
>>“don’t steal” on any level and are full blown atheist
>or
>>“agnostic”?
>
>aetheist or agnostic folks don't believe in not stealing?
>

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

>My point is, got a better alternative to religion?

That's a broad question.

There are numerous answers, but I think it's more productive if you can define which parts of religion you want an alternative to.

Even without that, it's easy to see those alternatives in action.

We can start with morality, because most of us do not get our actual morality from a religious text. Most of us get most of our morality from the societal standards of our time and geographical location. We can narrow that down to a much more local framework of our communities and families.

This is easily proven in the fact that morality has changed dramatically over the course of time, even among those who use the same religious texts as our ancestors.

That's without getting into the fact that people have to twist and turn and use all manner of apologetics to account for what are, by and large, morally abhorrent parts of books such as the bible.

Earlier you mentioned that a religion based on loving your neighbor was used to justify slavery. The problem with that statement is that the bible does all the heavy lifting of that justification.

It provides a veritable how-to guide for where and how to get your slaves, how you can treat them, and how to keep them in perpetuity.

And when Jesus spoke on the subject, he said that slaves should love their masters, even the cruel ones.

So that old testament how-to guide is in no way undone by any edict given by Jesus. I'd say it contradicts the "love thy neighbor" edict, except for the fact that it draws a distinction between slaves and masters, and it's clear that slaves don't count as thy neighbor.

So we can easily establish that we don't *really* get our morality from the bible. That's an illusion.

We derive our morality from a set of objective goals.

If I go around killing people, I get put in prison, and/or society shuns me.

Thus, barriers are created that make it clear that it is in my best interest not to kill other people.

No god is needed in that equation, and even if someone says they don't kill because the bible said not to, that point is still demonstrably true, and the same results can be achieved with a dubious belief in a deity.

I'd argue that's a better framework, because it dispenses with the unnecessary fluff. It's a leaner framework that requires less moving parts.

Easy peazy.


Once we dispense with that,

-Sig-

“Why didn’t you do this in your own god damn country?"

-All Stah's view on undocumented immigrants wanting to be treated like human beings.

So I guess we'll be soon seeing something else?

to fix what real life people have done.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

<--- Big Baller World Order

not a single person here could say they're more "rational" than malcolm or martin just because they dont believe in god. get over yourself.


if you can't out organize your local church with free community resources then that cynicism is leading nowhere

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

>if you can't out organize your local church with free
>community resources then that cynicism is leading nowhere

Just such a narrow, shortsighted, simplistic, context-free view of how religion got to where it is and how legitimately impossible it would be for any one person or even group of people, at this point, to "out organize" the largest organized religion (even just a local branch of such) in human history.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

And I wasn't responding to allStah. But by then it was too late to edit.

I'll see myself out.

----------------------------------------

"Fuck aliens." © WarriorPoet415

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

..at least it was acknowledged. Hopefully the word spreads lol.


*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...

with philosophy.

That's a dorm room discussion, not something at all based on real world experience or even a study of history.

I get all the arguments how bad religion has been for people on a MACRO level, but as I sit here and think about everyone I know who has religion in their life I really can't think of too many people I know where religion has been a bad thing in their life.

I think of the older drunks and wild boys who clean up and end up deacons.

I think of all the people whose social life revolve around the church. Besides the post office, doctors office, drug store, my grandmother only otherwise left the house to go to the Church. What was she supposed to replace church with?

I think about all the people who go through some really fucked up horrible situations where dispair is easy who despite it all are actually hopeful, people who have a sense of purpose because of their faith. What are you all proposing be the alternative source of hope for these people?


And here is the thing, it's not like I see athiest walking around and appearing visibly better off. In fact, there is a close co-relation between every atheist and perpetually miserable person I know.

Yeah I actually don't think we need religion for the moral code. I think the biggest value religion has is given people a sense of hope and purpose in what can feel like miserable times. What do you suggest we replace that with?!?!



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

and you grown too

smfh

________________________________________________

The ULTIMATE negation of everything.

The space between despair and orgasm is hard to fill ~ Maron

What's the real medicine?

And I am all for security blankets for those who need it.

If you really looked at it, you will see those who are most likely to cling to religion are those most in need of it.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

>What's the real medicine?

For what? Name the sickness.

As it stands, Christianity, for example, both gives you the sickness and sells you the cure. It monopolizes both ends of that spectrum.

>And I am all for security blankets for those who need it.

I'm not, if those blankets actively prevent people from achieving active security. But that process is not as simple as this simple analogy.

>If you really looked at it, you will see those who are most
>likely to cling to religion are those most in need of it.

Is that really true though? You could define that in ways that show that everyone who clings to religion "needs" it.

But there is no cure that religion offers that cannot be had through other means- and for whatever ailments it does "cure", that cure rests largely on illusion and magical thinking more than demonstrable reality.

Hence, the placebo.

And even if there were no "real" medicine, that wouldn't make the placebo any less of a placebo; the effect is the same even if there were nothing else to compare it to.

But we have many things we can draw direct comparisons to.

Do you pray for a broken arm?
Or do you go to the doctor and get it treated?

Nevermind the logistics and whatabout this person who has no insurance and all that. The simple, rational answer is, people go to the doctor for that.

God doesn't heal amputees, curiously enough.

But let someone's cancer go into remission, and it's Hallelujah, praise Jesus.

-Sig-

“Why didn’t you do this in your own god damn country?"

-All Stah's view on undocumented immigrants wanting to be treated like human beings.

Otherwise there's no incentive to keep going.


These thought exercises don't have real world applications when you're going through real shit.

The community support the children and elderly receive is unmatched.

You're put into a network of black people who sees your humanity and supports you with no need to go through college hazing or military training. Just show up.

And like you said, whats the secular alternatives for that.

A socialist organization that'll exile you for screwing up someone's pronouns? lol

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

but most communities also have community centers

We have a community center and that is where we spent the bulk of our time.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

>but most communities also have community centers
>
>We have a community center and that is where we spent the bulk
>of our time.

they're just being intentionally daft to protect their sky daddy/genie

________________________________________________

The ULTIMATE negation of everything.

The space between despair and orgasm is hard to fill ~ Maron

nor do I rock with traditional religion but I do believe in a higher power.

just pointing out that one can have community outreach without a church

I do believe a lot of churches have great community outreach as well. I just dont believe without the church the world would fall apart or grandma wouldn’t leave the house.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

or should I say I'm more of an agnostic with atheistic sensibilities/leanings

or to borrow from Dawkins' summation 'no one is exactly 100% atheist' or at least they shouldn't be

>nor do I rock with traditional religion but I do believe in a
>higher power.

there's glaringly apparent "higher powers" all around us, you ain't gotta search too hard

>just pointing out that one can have community outreach without
>a church
>
>I do believe a lot of churches have great community outreach
>as well. I just dont believe without the church the world
>would fall apart or grandma wouldn’t leave the house.

i'm in agreement on that last part

why does the galvanizing principle have to be a dubiously contradictory, archaic, and outdated one?

why can't it be the upliftment of humanity for humanity's sake?

________________________________________________

The ULTIMATE negation of everything.

The space between despair and orgasm is hard to fill ~ Maron

It's a perfectly reasonable position. Whether it's rational depends upon the reasoning of a given person. Two people can hate religion for different reasons, and one may be rational, and the other may not.

>not a single person here could say they're more "rational"
>than malcolm or martin just because they dont believe in god.

It's not nearly that simple.

To the question of whether or not a god exists, sure. But we don't have either of them here to have an actual conversation to determine that.

So no, nobody here could say that with any intellectual honesty.

But to the question of whether I or Buddy, for example, have the more rational perspective on whether or not an actual god actually exists in reality, we could have that discussion and parse that answer.

But whether one of us is more rational than the other on that specific topic doesn't necessarily lend itself to telling anyone which of us is more rational overall.

>if you can't out organize your local church with free
>community resources then that cynicism is leading nowhere

I disagree completely.

First, religion has a foothold and a massive head start. It's the White People of belief systems. That shit has taken root. It currently has several significant advantages, up to and including legal protections for charitable functions that secular organizations simply are not privy to.

A church doesn't have to open it's books in the way a secular charitable organization would, for example.

Moreover, that the act of changing the world's view on religion is a tall order that has, does, and will continue to be a slow process doesn't mean it's leading nowhere.

Minds can be changed, and with that change comes actions.

-Sig-

“Why didn’t you do this in your own god damn country?"

-All Stah's view on undocumented immigrants wanting to be treated like human beings.

>
>I disagree completely.
>
>First, religion has a foothold and a massive head start. It's
>the White People of belief systems. That shit has taken root.
>It currently has several significant advantages, up to and
>including legal protections for charitable functions that
>secular organizations simply are not privy to.
>
>A church doesn't have to open it's books in the way a secular
>charitable organization would, for example.
>


But you do understand that when it comes to the black radical tradition our greatest champions have been religious, or at best, ambivalent to religion?

You simply can't organize effectively if you're being antagonistic to people for being religious.


There's time to talk alternatives and there's time to work with whats there.

"They used to call me Baby Luke....but now? The whole damn 2 Liiiive Crew."

But you do understand that when it comes to the black radical
>tradition our greatest champions have been religious, or at
>best, ambivalent to religion?
>
>You simply can't organize effectively if you're being
>antagonistic to people for being religious.
>
>
>There's time to talk alternatives and there's time to work
>with whats there.

Yep. I’m not a fan of the OP header, but i also did not want to speak to it from the direct standpoint of the Black community. It’s not exactly my place.

So i stuck to the broader issues of religion.

I would like to see religion eradicated, but through a reasoned examination of the evidence.

Because of that, I get that reasonable people can disagree- even to the point of being factually wrong. I don’t think it’s productive to take a scorched earth approach because too many people rely on the church for, if nothing else, community.

There are already groups out there- freedom from religion foundation, and recovering from religion, for starters, that help people through the roller coaster of a transition. But those groups are not large enough to handle a massive exit all at once.

But as time goes on, more people are exposed to the idea that it *is* silly, and those beliefs are continually challenged, more and more people will change their minds on the subject.

For the Black community in particular, I recognize this is problematic in part for the same reason you ignored Brew:

Atheists who are out are largely white, and a bunch of white atheists attacking the church has a certain connotation. There are prominent Black atheists, and a group called Black Nonbelievers, for those who are interested in the subject. But even they lament the difficulty of being atheist in the Black community.

So there are serious challenges on this front as it is, and I absolutely recognize many of the ones that impact Black believers in particular.

-Sig-

“Why didn’t you do this in your own god damn country?"

-All Stah's view on undocumented immigrants wanting to be treated like human beings.

And in fact, life experience tells me they would be worst off.

I call myself a history nerd and if you look at most of human history it is primarily kill or be killed, might is right and life is a just a brutish awful experience.

And I think religion has played a role in changing us from that world view.

Don't get me wrong, all those awful things continue to happen even in, and especially in, the name of religion, again, anything can be exploited for man's depravity. The westboro baptist church people were going to be awful people anyway, they just used religion as their outlet for their terrible hearts.

but on a thousand of years timeline, we actually do treat each other better than we did 2000 years ago. I think religion played a role in that.

That's my macro perspective.

On a personal level, again, I can't think of anyone who is deeply religious who I think would be better off if they didn't have religion in their life. Again, the folks I know who use religion to treat other people poorly I am fairly certain they were going to treat people poorly anyway and are just using religion as the vehicle.


And I do know people who became better people once they "got religion" (granted the argument goes both ways and maybe those people were just looking for a vehicle to improve themselves). For some people it's the gym (for example), others it's religion.

And you say religion is silly but to me its all made up and silly. If a person derives a great amount of joy and meaning being a Knicks fan, who the fuck am I to knock it.

And again I think people think there is this thing out there called the Truth and if we all ascribed to it we would be better off and I just don't (a) know there is this thing called Truth, (b) if there is this thing called truth whether it's something that exist separate from us or if it's something we make and (c) even if there is a truth we would be better off ascribing to it.

To put another way, I think the idea of scrapping what we have and starting from scratch and creating a new better system for everyone is a pipe dream.

I do believe in taking what we have an incrementally improving and making it better. It's a long view but the only thing that has seemed to work through out history.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"
**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

>And in fact, life experience tells me they would be worst
>off.
>
>I call myself a history nerd and if you look at most of human
>history it is primarily kill or be killed, might is right and
>life is a just a brutish awful experience.

>
>And I think religion has played a role in changing us from
>that world view.

>
>Don't get me wrong, all those awful things continue to happen
>even in, and especially in, the name of religion, again,
>anything can be exploited for man's depravity. The westboro
>baptist church people were going to be awful people anyway,
>they just used religion as their outlet for their terrible
>hearts.

considering all the things that are done in the name of religion. I'm not even saying to completely get rid of it, but it's usage should at least be reexamined.

yes, there will always be terrible people. if those terrible people are also using their religion to berate, belittle, reduce the rights, or in other ways make other folks lives harder, what good is the religion providing? that's tend be how it goes. those terrible people get into office and make restrictive policies. those terrible people kill others for not believing or living the same way. those terrible people touch kids and tell them to be quiet about it.

Women still can't be whole humans in a lot places largely because religion.

of course, not all terrible people are religious, but that's akin to saying not all cops are bad. enough of them are so that things should be looked at more closely.




>
>but on a thousand of years timeline, we actually do treat each
>other better than we did 2000 years ago. I think religion
>played a role in that.
>
>That's my macro perspective.
>
>On a personal level, again, I can't think of anyone who is
>deeply religious who I think would be better off if they
>didn't have religion in their life. Again, the folks I know
>who use religion to treat other people poorly I am fairly
>certain they were going to treat people poorly anyway and are
>just using religion as the vehicle.

>
>
> And I do know people who became better people once they "got
>religion" (granted the argument goes both ways and maybe those
>people were just looking for a vehicle to improve themselves).
> For some people it's the gym (for example), others it's
>religion.
>
>And you say religion is silly but to me its all made up and
>silly. If a person derives a great amount of joy and meaning
>being a Knicks fan, who the fuck am I to knock it.

that works if it went both ways. folks that don't believe/follow have very few spaces to be comfy saying they don't believe.

>
>And again I think people think there is this thing out there
>called the Truth and if we all ascribed to it we would be
>better off and I just don't (a) know there is this thing
>called Truth, (b) if there is this thing called truth whether
>it's something that exist separate from us or if it's
>something we make and (c) even if there is a truth we would be
>better off ascribing to it.
>
>To put another way, I think the idea of scrapping what we have
>and starting from scratch and creating a new better system for
>everyone is a pipe dream.
>
>I do believe in taking what we have an incrementally improving
>and making it better. It's a long view but the only thing that
>has seemed to work through out history.

it's a long, painful game. I just don't see how religion is overall helpful. I get that it's been used to organize and make changes for good. I believe those same things could've been done without it.

Y'all buy those labels, I was born supreme

>I call myself a history nerd and if you look at most of human
>history it is primarily kill or be killed, might is right and
>life is a just a brutish awful experience.
>
>And I think religion has played a role in changing us from
>that world view.

This is just incorrect. Religion has played a massive role in that kill or be killed culture.

Hell... the Bible is a leading cause of that.

Because the god of bible IS that type of god.

Go kill all the Midianites, kill all the boys and women who have known a man, and keep the young/virgin girls for yourselves.

Religion actively teaches that kill or be killed, us vs them mentality, and we see that play out through history.

>Don't get me wrong, all those awful things continue to happen
>even in, and especially in, the name of religion, again,
>anything can be exploited for man's depravity.

And yet religion remains one of the biggest and most influential and enabling means to that depravity.

The westboro
>baptist church people were going to be awful people anyway,
>they just used religion as their outlet for their terrible
>hearts.

ANd yet, their version of Christianity is far closer to what the bible teaches than the more peaceful variants.

>but on a thousand of years timeline, we actually do treat each
>other better than we did 2000 years ago. I think religion
>played a role in that.

>That's my macro perspective.

I think you are A. counting the hits and ignoring the myriad misses, and B. misdiagnosing misses as hits.

That change coincides with a decrease in religion.

Our improved morality flies in the face of religion.

It has improved largely by fighting against the dogmatic, hateful ideas of religion.

The best, kindest, most humane versions of religion are largely those versions which water down and/or flat out ignore the actual things being taught in those sacred texts.

Which demonstrates that it is definitively not religion that improves our moral foundations. WE, through reason and examination of increasing evidence to the contrary of those books, provide the foundation for those stronger moral ideals.

>On a personal level, again, I can't think of anyone who is
>deeply religious who I think would be better off if they
>didn't have religion in their life.

That you cannot conceive of them being better off without it, does not mean that it is not, or cannot be the case.

Whether or not they would be "better off" is too complex to conclude that so simply. There are too many variables to determine how well they'd be without religion. Going back to my earlier posts on the subject, this is proposition dependent.

You can't really say for certain that they're all that well off with religion.

Moreover, I know plenty of people with deeply held religious beliefs that aren't well off at all, and, truth be told, aren't all that happy outside the moments where they're putting on that "blessed to be a blessing!" show for their fellow churchgoers.

Often enough, people put on their god glasses to view any and everything, and I think you're doing it in this post:

If people are good, it's because of religion.
If they're bad, they were already bad and it's not religion's fault.

All the credit, none of the blame.

That speaks to indoctrination that is overriding reason from where I sit.

>Again, the folks I know
>who use religion to treat other people poorly I am fairly
>certain they were going to treat people poorly anyway and are
>just using religion as the vehicle.

Oh I agree- but that also proves much of my point that our morality does not come from any divine mandate, but from our own collective, reasoned evaluation of the evidence that shows us that we're all better off the better we treat each other.

I'll see your stance and raise it: Every person's "god" is essentially themselves. Whatever a person believes, that's what their god believes. This largely holds true as far as I can tell. What god thinks about X is largely a reflection of what the person thinks about X.

BUt this goes back to what I said earlier- none of the blame for the evils of the world, but all of the credit for the good. I think you are demonstrating a lack of objectivity here.

>And I do know people who became better people once they "got
>religion" (granted the argument goes both ways and maybe those
>people were just looking for a vehicle to improve themselves).
> For some people it's the gym (for example), others it's
>religion.

The fact that you point to a viable alternative is a buttress to my point. Whatever positives that are offered by religion, they can be had by other things without the significant baggage of religion.

>And you say religion is silly

I was being cheeky with it but I do not discount the gravity of it, to be clear.

but to me its all made up and
>silly. If a person derives a great amount of joy and meaning
>being a Knicks fan, who the fuck am I to knock it.

Tu quoque at best, disingenuous at worst.

The Knicks and Christianity are apples and automobiles by comparison.

"it's all made up" is a dodge, I think. The weight of religion pales most other institutions. If being a Knicks fan means you are trying to legislate the social views of Knicks fans on everyone else, then we should knock it.

Religion largely does just that, influencing people to impose those religious ideals on the rest of us.

That's a problem.

>And again I think people think there is this thing out there
>called the Truth and if we all ascribed to it we would be
>better off and I just don't (a) know there is this thing
>called Truth, (b) if there is this thing called truth whether
>it's something that exist separate from us or if it's
>something we make and (c) even if there is a truth we would be
>better off ascribing to it.

I think this is a straw man.

The argument is about whether This Thing, being religion, is true.

Not whether there is "a" capital T Truth.

There doesn't need to be a capital T Truth, and that's an entirely seperate discussion even if there is. Moreover, much of religion is saying "this is the truth, ascribe to this or else"

So religion is the exact problem you're talking about here.

>To put another way, I think the idea of scrapping what we have
>and starting from scratch and creating a new better system for
>everyone is a pipe dream.

I don't think anyone is attempting or even suggesting we start from scratch. Scrapping religion and it's myriad societal ills, sure. But we don't need to start from scratch. We already have foundations on which to build.

>I do believe in taking what we have an incrementally improving
>and making it better. It's a long view but the only thing that
>has seemed to work through out history.

That's what's already happening, and it's what's been happening. Religion isn't improving so much as it's being watered down to accommodate the morality that we have, as I mentioned, improved in spite of that religion.

The alternatives are already there. They just need mass adoption. That's a tall order, to be sure. But the building blocks are already there. It's not as though there's this great unknown where it's pure chaos in the absence of religion.

But there is a tendency to throw the proverbial baby out with the metaphorical bath water, in that believers often cannot see a good existence apart from their religious beliefs. That's the indoctrination talking, and you don't see it until you're free of it.

I've been there so I get it.

-Sig-

“Why didn’t you do this in your own god damn country?"

-All Stah's view on undocumented immigrants wanting to be treated like human beings.

Hella simplistic worldview.
Wild cuz folks always begin and end with large scale European xtianity in their critique of religion...as if what we consider "rationality" aint poisonous as fuck, from the same source, and equally as violent.

.

If you can show the benefits of religion over it's detriments especially as it concerns African people I would like to know it.

In my observation religion has been our downfall and I can point to several instances of it causing our divide and eventual colonization and enslavement.

<----

Soundcloud.com/aquil84

(HIP HOP)
http://aquil.bandcamp.com

and edited it for slaves to control them.

but its still man manipulating something for their own benefit.

I believe if religion was removed something shitty would replace it because humans always find ways to manip for their own selfishness.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

The bible is, and always has been, explicit on the subject.

>but its still man manipulating something for their own
>benefit.

What is there to manipulate about

“‘44Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.

45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.

46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly"?

What is there to manipulate about that?

It says I can buy slaves from those outside my in-group and own them as property that I can leave to my children.

It's crystal clear. There's nothing to manipulate about that.

>I believe if religion was removed something shitty would
>replace it because humans always find ways to manip for their
>own selfishness.

Sure, but the fact still remains that the bible actively advocates for the ownership of human beings as property that you can pass down to your children.

That humans read that and decided to do it would be the fault of the god that sent that how-to guide to be written, not the people who followed the guide.

That's not the only verse, mind you. And this is NOT talking about indentured servitude to pay debts. That would still be horrendous, but that's not what this is about. That comes in Leviticus 39-43.

47-53 gets deeper into the weeds on another form of slavery with a different and more complicated set of rules.

But 44-46 is a whopper. But if that's not enough, head to Exodus21 if you want even more details on how to treat your slaves.

There's nothing to manipulate here. It's a ridiculously meticulous guide on where to get them, how long you can keep them, how to keep the ones you're technically supposed to free, how badly you're allowed to beat them, the fucking works.

Where's the manipulation?

-Sig-

“Why didn’t you do this in your own god damn country?"

-All Stah's view on undocumented immigrants wanting to be treated like human beings.

they removed anything in the bible that spoke of rebellions by slaves. Exodus from Egypt removed.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/heavily-abridged-slave-bible-removed-passages-might-encourage-uprisings-180970989/#:~:text=When%2019th%2Dcentury%20British%20missionaries,of%20enslaved%20Israelites%20from%20Egypt.


That meant the missionaries needed a radically pared down version of the Bible. “A typical Protestant edition of the Bible contains 66 books, a Roman Catholic version has 73 books and an Eastern Orthodox translation contains 78 books,” the museum says in a statement. “By comparison, the astoundingly reduced Slave Bible contains only parts of 14 books.”

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*

And yea, I agree that that’s heavy manipulation.

I was so fixated on the parts that are there that wouldn’t need to be removed to send that message, I couldn’t see the parts that would need to be removed in order to reinforce it.

Point taken.

-Sig-

“Why didn’t you do this in your own god damn country?"

-All Stah's view on undocumented immigrants wanting to be treated like human beings.

****************
TBH the fact that you're even a mod here fits squarely within Jag's narrative of OK-sanctioned aggression, bullying, and toxicity. *shrug*