Y'all watching? It's real good so far

_______________________________________

My only complaint was they didn't mention anything about Assata Shakur.

<<<<"Nothings more attractive than a heavy praying woman" � Andre 3000

Like it's way too much to digest in one watch. Haven't seen Bobby Seale yet...wonder if he spoke at all

STILL didn't cover it all.

<<<<"Nothings more attractive than a heavy praying woman" � Andre 3000

I saw it over the summer too.
Been trying to find a download since then.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

can be told and not JUST FILLER MATERIAL. I mean, interesting, compelling, individuals who's stories are just as intriguing as anyone else that's being featured.

<<<<"Nothings more attractive than a heavy praying woman" � Andre 3000

Very inspiring. Makes me want read into more of their history.

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http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/07/03/ex-black-panther-leader-elaine-brown-slams-stanley-nelson-s-condemnable-documentary.html

------------------
One Hundred.

I guess she had some really bad experiences during her time with the party and it's made her really bitter, ala Janet Hubert-style.

<<<<"Nothings more attractive than a heavy praying woman" � Andre 3000

Check the article. Its her rebuttal of the documentary.

------------------
One Hundred.

That's all I'm saying. So THIS ain't really all that surprising.

If she thinks the documentary was that horrible and misleading, she should do her own.

The BPP meant different things to many people. As good as I thought this documentary was, I can see that it had some shortcomings, but you CAN'T get Everything in and this AIN'T my vision, so there you go. That doesn't make this presentation a bad one.

<<<<"Nothings more attractive than a heavy praying woman" � Andre 3000

She has a BPP project coming - it's based on her book.

Her main problems with this one lie in its portrayal of Huey as a drug-addicted maniac who was uninterested in revolution and seems to let the government off the hook by not giving a proper examination of the mechanism behind and reasoning for COINTELPRO.

fuck you.

.

------------------
One Hundred.

should put it out to the masses, via video presentation.

I can't wait to see what all she chooses to present and how she shows it.

<<<<"Nothings more attractive than a heavy praying woman" � Andre 3000

kinda like straight outta compton, I would expect most interested viewers already had exposure to the BPP before watching this doc

but having watched it now for the 2nd time

the start is very jarring

within the first 5 minutes the BPP is in the capital with guns

there is a definite correlation to BLM

there needed to be specifics

names, dates, etc...for the inspiration to start the BPP

by any means necessary was quoted by BPP members more than a couple of times

but you don't actually go through the thought process of choosing a different route compared to SNCC, SLCC, non-violent groups associated with MLK...

I do agree Huey was painted in a strange light

it felt almost intentional

the clip where he's rifling off statutes that allow the BPP to be armed was inspiring, but there wasn't alot of that

as mentioned above, no Assata, and being from philly, there is a famous image of a raid on a BPP compound that also wasn't mentioned

i.e. they keep it all the way Oak, LA and Hampton.

but overall, I agree with Elaine

the portrayal of Huey feels like an equivalent, if not more, in blame for the demise of the party

than blaming the government, cointelpro, pds, etc...

I'm waiting for her HBO series.

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

They paint him in a way that you almost forget the government was behind all of that mess that broke it up. AND they don't get into just how far the infiltration went. Did it involve drugs too?

I still dug the doc a lot and it just makes me want to learn more.

This post was paid for by the following.

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www.debunkthemyth.org
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that amounted to him saying that the FBI only needed to plant a seed of discord via COINTELPRO and then the Panthers did the rest of the work of dismantling the Party. that gave me the impression that the documentary was letting the Bureau off the hook.

>They paint him in a way that you almost forget the government
>was behind all of that mess that broke it up. AND they don't
>get into just how far the infiltration went. Did it involve
>drugs too?

hello. all i heard was the FBI sent some mail that couldn't be traced to the Bureau.

>I still dug the doc a lot and it just makes me want to learn
>more.

agreed...but it made me want to learn more in part b/c i felt like the doc was misrepresenting the Party's history. or at least it seemed to conflict w/the history as i know it. but i don't have particularly in-depth knowledge of the Party's history.

fuck you.

Elaine saying he was elevated in the doc

again, blaming the party for it's demise

by presenting the leadership in an inflammatory light

chaotic, disorganized, unpredictable, dangerous, and flat out crazy

I didn't know the timeline before seeing this doc

Soul on Ice predated Eldridge joining the BPP

and if you've read the book, you know that dude is flat out crazy

but functional

yeah, it will be interesting to contrast the HBO project with the docs I've seen

the mixtape was pretty good too, but I have high hopes for the Elaine project

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

>and if you've read the book, you know that dude is flat out
>crazy
>
>but functional

mom and i used to see him on the bus in Oakland and Berkeley. she'd tell me stories about him and the BPP and would remind me that while he used to be less crazy than the ranting, disheveled man i saw on the bus she always thought he was at least a little crazy. LOL

fuck you.

--
the untold want by life and land ne'er granted
now voyager sail thou forth to seek and find

She was in Oakland around that time, knew a lot of the Panthers and her words were:

"Them niggas was crazy... All of 'em"


---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

I'll beat him to death with a marshmellow

= bat shit crazy

with a simultaneous, RIGHT ON!

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

There are people who believe he joined the Panthers specifically for the guns. And given what he went on to do after the Panthers, it makes sense.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

crazy and evil..at least he became that, and not dealing with the multiple questionable aspects about Clever...

and I agree with her on that as far as being a bit of an unfair portrayal...


it's possible that to assure Clever's wife be involved in it, he didn't want to go to negative on him....

I dunno.

was largely because of (and somewhat understandable) the stress he was under. COINTELPRO did what it was supposed to do. The shit worked. Huey became incredibly paranoid and fearful. He became a drug addict. Those things can't be disputed. The stuff about the penthouse with the guards roughing people up, sexually assaulting people -- that was stuff I hadn't heard of before this doc. But Huey was in nonstop state of intense stress for years, and I have no doubt that changes you. For the worst.
Eldridge on the other hand, was always "off." I guess Eldridge did get off a bit light though, they didn't show who he became in the 80s...

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

I think alot of those issues get overlooked in how some of the idols of the time are remembered

watching 'what happened miss simone' really gave you that insight into what caused her later troubles

to Elaine's sentiment that cointelpro, hoover, etc...aren't investigated in depth in this doc

makes it harder to complete that connection

and leaves the door open for Huey the thug

akin to Nina's schitzo

instead of presenting, as you said, how effective those counter BPP strategies really were

and our government's responsibility in carrying out those strategies.

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

because the narrative I had in my head (and what's been taught to me) was that they were awesome, US government destroyed them, and that's it. Similar to the way we treat other past black leaders as deities I think its important to paint them as human, flaws and all...because there are lessons to be learned.

>They paint him in a way that you almost forget the government
>was behind all of that mess that broke it up. AND they don't
>get into just how far the infiltration went. Did it involve
>drugs too?

If one deals with the personal shortcomings of any group that doesn't mean that the Gov. DIDN'T do all the things they did to them.

it's actually more accurate to deal with both sides of it....

I don't see it as contradictory to view the Panthers and their movement as historic, heroic and great.....and deal with the personal flaws of those involved.

anytime you're dealing with humans you're going to have those type of issues...personal flaws vs. impact of positive deeds.

that is

the BPP was revolting against the system that made them flawed to begin with

if you were to detail, in depth, the flaws of every member

it would be just as glaring an indictment on the system that manifested those flaws

the takeaway should be the determination, organizing, and execution of plans to overcome those flaws

which was the intent of the BPP

clinics, education, self defense, etc...

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

while watching I was a bit disappointed with the way Huey was portrayed overall. I mean it was he started something...he went to jail...he became a violent drug dealer and crack head...then he died.

It just kind of minimized his influence in the entire thing, while exhalting Clever's. Which most people know there would be just as much, or more info about Clever that could taint his character and sanity as it would Huey's.

I tell you the one part that was very powerful to me...was the gentleman who was in the shoot out in LA, when asked how he "felt" during it.... he said he felt free....he was a "free Negro"....decades earlier one was literally either a slave, or a Free Man, or a Free Negro.... based upon your specific status in terms of where you lived.... This man was a Free Negro based upon his action of defending himself. He was defining himself as opposed to society defining him. Very powerful stuff....

But I would definitely want to see Elaine Brown's book become an HBO documentary. I think you'd get a more full view of the party.

I was there in that shootout with him as he said that. I was able to visualize how liberating that felt, knowing that he is in the fight for his life, and at that moment in time he controlled his destiny to the utmost degree.

I never caught his name but that moment. And when he was saying towards the end that people saw the Panthers in the leather and with the guns but that all he was was a Black man. So poignant,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnoLuTH2W5o&feature=youtu.be&t=1h25m53s

I can't say for sure whether she was or wasn't. And I think there is also something to be said about the discrediting of women (solely by men).
But I can't say I agree with her critique. Maybe because I know a little more of Panther history than many. But I didn't get the impression that they made it seem like the party self destructed without the intervention of outside forces. It was always clear to me that what happened to Huey was at the very least, partially because of the chaos caused by the CIA/FBI/Police/COINTELPRO and the stress and paranoia that those things caused in him. I didn't think the free breakfast/clinic/education programs were glossed over either, but maybe that's because I had knowledge of them prior.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

is the 'secret agent'/'agent provocateur' tag is put on folks all willy-nilly. it's too easy to tag a person w/that as a result of a disagreement. and w/o proof. of course, the lack of proof can be blamed on the secret nature of 'agent' work. it's sad.

anyway - re: the PBS documentary and the breakfast program...i think Elaine's complaint there was the the doc presented the breakfast program as representative of the BPP's Survival Programs as if Survival wasn't connected to revolution - as if when BPP focused on Survival under Newton the Party was largely unconcerned w/the revolution. Elaine seems to dispute that.

fuck you.

On the Cointelpro situation. It makes everything so messy. Elaine could've been feds, but, she also might not have been. And given the well known chauvinism of the party, any critique she gave of them, was probably not well taken.

From what I know, when Huey was in charge the party was doing a lot survival and revolution (which as you said aren't antithetical), but when Eldridge got in charge, the focus was definitely narrowed.

--

"You can't beat white people. You can only knock them out."

>On the Cointelpro situation. It makes everything so messy.
>Elaine could've been feds, but, she also might not have been.
>And given the well known chauvinism of the party, any critique
>she gave of them, was probably not well taken.
>
>From what I know, when Huey was in charge the party was doing
>a lot survival and revolution (which as you said aren't
>antithetical), but when Eldridge got in charge, the focus was
>definitely narrowed.


The insidiousness of COINTELPRO and the United States govt in 1970 is a stark reminder of the potential power they could have today.

I usually try not to be a conspiracy theorist, but I couldnt help but wonder if they were able to do that shit 40 years ago --what kind of worldwide conspiracies are "they" involved in against the people...

Everything from 9/11 conspiracies to brainwashing us via media consumption seems much more plausible.

---
"though time has passed, im still the future" (c) black thought

>The insidiousness of COINTELPRO and the United States govt in
>1970 is a stark reminder of the potential power they could
>have today.
>
>I usually try not to be a conspiracy theorist, but I couldnt
>help but wonder if they were able to do that shit 40 years ago
>--what kind of worldwide conspiracies are "they" involved in
>against the people...
>
>Everything from 9/11 conspiracies to brainwashing us via media
>consumption seems much more plausible.

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

i say this as some one who was part of a Black and Brown collation who brought her to speak at my college as an undergrad

her claims in this lil' essay are hurt alert. the only one i rock with is how tertiary the doc made Huey, everything else... she on that bullshit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eX6W2rvzydo

from Eyes On The Prize. So good.

starts...
shoot..
how many eps in are they?
i'm gonna google....just in case though

it's a 2 hour documentary.

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/videos/the-black-panthers-vanguard-of-the-revolution/

fuck you.

How deeply, if at all, does the documentary go into the BPP vs US Organization? Doe it go into how COINTELPRO was directly responsible for the events that led up to the shooting at UCLA and the retaliatory shootings after that or does it even get a mention?

If this stuff isn't discussed, then I have no wish to see this. It's bad enough that I'm reading in this thread that Huey was reduced to a drug addicted maniac, but the FBI has to be blamed for some of the shit that went down with the Panthers.

Hampton'

I'm hoping that goes into more detail about the government's invovlement, as I assume it would be hard not to

in this doc

that is the only example given of a BPP mole

to answer your question, no.

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

and holds the Feds responsible for the crime as history should.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLSr76vKjBw

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

pulled off that youtube link now but can seen here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7JIR1u9qw

and

https://www.amazon.com/Murder-Fred-Hampton-Howard-Alk/dp/B006VRCMWK

Is it as comprehensive as BPP historians want/need it to be, no, but still it was well executed in the 2 hour time frame they had to squeeze it in.

Not to take away from Huey's and Eldridge's Panther legacy, but I wanted more information on David Hilliard.

They didn't shy away from what Conintelpro was and the extent of what they were capable of and the measures they took were addressed, but it's impossible to capture all of their tactic in 120 without it being solely about Cointelpro.

All in all, it is a good documentary for those who don't know too much about the Panthers.

>They didn't shy away from what Conintelpro was and the extent
>of what they were capable of and the measures they took were
>addressed, but it's impossible to capture all of their tactic
>in 120 without it being solely about Cointelpro.

There was a documentary about the Panthers that went into quite a bit of detail about how COINTELPRO created dissent between the BPP and US Organization culminating in the shootout between the groups on UCLA's campus. It continued on to show how the FBI ultimately succeeded in bringing down the BPP by weaving that narrative into the primary subect matter that was the history of the BPP.

I forget which cable channel I watched it on.

---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

the key to happiness is not being rich;
it's doing something arduous and
creating something of value and then
being able to reflect on the fruits of your labor

I don't remember seeing it....

that was something I wanted to hear more info about...

I had a professor in college who talked about a panel that she hosted at the school.... Elaine Brown was there, but once she realized that Dr. Karenga was also going to be on the panel, she got up and left..angered that she wasn't told he would be there, and basically saying she refused to be in his presence. This was just maybe 10-12 years ago so she's still very much not cool with him and what he represented from the US conflict.

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

hardison an em movie and bits n pieces from oldheads

I think it was very very informative

it didn't paint them in a 'bad light' in my opinion

shit was real...

Bobby Seale seemed to be the level headed one


the international influence/meetings/collabs......I had 0 idea abt

=======================================
Coolin...

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/videos/the-black-panthers-vanguard-of-the-revolution/

________________________________________
"Take the surprise out your voice Shaq."-The REAL CP3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2H5K-BUMS0

because these narratives are usually just focused on Cleaver, Seale, Newton ,Hampton etc



focusing on the lesser knowns does some justice to whst was a very much grassroots movement

https://youtu.be/hy290oVa1

sorry folks I don't remember the timestamps of what was discussed when

I think he opens with karenga initially living/claiming to be Caribbean

)))--####---###--(((

bunda
<-.-> ^_^ \^0^/
get busy living, or get busy dying.

I had no idea he (David Lemieux )was an actual Panther. I was watching the documentary like, that light skinned dude with dreads looks and sounds so familiar. That's the dude from The Spook Who Sat By the Door!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7972c5I8DRc



kev

.

because he really was what Newton and Cleaver and Seale lacked while still having all the charisma and analysis they held and beyond.

He seamed like the natural heir to what Malcolm had imagined at the end of his life.

im seeing an option to buy or rent the doc

______

in the memory of NYC upt JUX�

I don't know if it's for a limited time only. Watched it this morning.

http://islasoul.bandcamp.com

Someone above alluded to drawing a comparison with the BLM. I would have been less likely to see the similarities before watching this flick than after. One thing I guess I didn't fully realize is how young the founders were. I went into the movie not having read extensively about the Panthers. I was familiar with some of the names and major events but not much of anything in detail. I have to admit....their philosophy is substantially LESS anti-white than I had perceived. It seems pretty clear that they made a distinction between white elites and white poor.

A really interesting distinction between the panthers and BLM seems to be that there is much less focus on capitalism with BLM. I've noticed that in reading about MLK this month too. Almost all of the black activism in the 60's had a strong foundation in communism/socialism.

Here's a really interesting Hillary Clinton quote from a couple days ago:

"Yes, does Wall Street and big financial interests, along with drug companies, insurance companies, big oil, all of it, have too much influence? You're right. But if we were to stop that tomorrow, we would still have the indifference, the negligence that we saw in Flint. We would still have racism holding people back. We would still have sexism preventing women from getting equal pay. We would still have LGBT people who get married on Saturday and get fired on Monday.”

She's been trying to appeal to BLM.....so it would appear that Clinton THINKS that BLM doesn't draw the same parallel between race inequality and capitalism that the black activism of the 60's did. Do you guys think she's right? I've watched a couple speeches and seen alot of internet discussion about BLM. I haven't perceived the same focus on capitalism either. The lack of black voter support for Bernie seems to suggest the same thing too. Is it fair to say that for BLM....racism cannot be fixed by overthrowing capitalism?

yeah, I agree

IRT the similarity, I was alluding to the movements manifesting from the need to protect ourselves from state violence

i.e. 50 years later, ain't shit changed.

it's interesting that you never hear the full name...Black Panther Party for self defense.

they parade these law enforcement officials in the media, and call them cop killers, IRT the recent Bey 'controversy'...

see reply 60

listening to Fred speak, I was mesmerized a few times

but what really stood out = socialism

they had an economic platform, and they were practicing it

they were socialists

which is hilarisad given Bern's candidacy

because I know some black folks that post here

and they seem allergic to the word

socialism

but yeah, it does feel like BLM started out with a narrow focus on just criminal justice reform

whereas, I'm assuming, the BPP wanted to separate from capitalism, or dismantle it all together

and as we saw with King, that's what gets you killed

great observation.

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you can't understand it without an explanation

you can't understand it with an explanation

there's not a chance in hell that shit would've flown with MLK or the Panthers talking about gross levels of wealth, diamonds and versacci. But the BLM movement seems to have embraced it.

Let me sport my Air Hyperbole 2010s in peace. (c) ansomble

Building repetoires (c) spm since 1983