14. "i'm not sure i agree." In response to Reply # 12 Thu Aug-13-15 11:10 AM by SoWhat
1. i don't believe in 'natural behavior'. 'nature' is such a construct - it's pretty meaningless.
2. i don't think 'natural behavior' can or should be described as 'good' or 'bad'. well, i guess it CAN but the description is of little use, IMO. maybe i'd change my mind w/some examples.
18. "RE: i'm not sure i agree." In response to Reply # 14
>1. i don't believe in 'natural behavior'. 'nature' is such a >construct - it's pretty meaningless.
Natural behavior is s'pose to be how folks would act without any social constructs. I can see what you mean by meaningless because we don't get many examples to see how it would play out. My instincts though tell me that people would act pretty brutish.
> >2. i don't think 'natural behavior' can or should be described >as 'good' or 'bad'. well, i guess it CAN but the description >is of little use, IMO. maybe i'd change my mind w/some >examples.
I agree. That's why I avoided the terms and use self-ish which I really mean is self-interested.
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're
20. "RE: i'm not sure i agree." In response to Reply # 18
My instincts though tell me that people would act >pretty brutish.
i'm not sure b/c i was brainwashed way too early w/the idea that ppl are inherently evil. i have tried to shake it.
>I agree. That's why I avoided the terms and use self-ish >which I really mean is self-interested.
that's that Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations brainwashing right there. we use it to defend our adoption of capitalism and shit. so i dunno about that either.
9. "morality is decided by a society of people not nature" In response to Reply # 4
therefore someone being bad or good by people and by nature are kind of seperate subjectivness of morality and good and bad prevents me from saying someone is born a certain way since those descriptors evolve sometimes in a lifetime
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Navem nu, cuando sol Tutu nu, vondo nos nu Vita em, no continous non Nos nu ekta nos sepe ta, amen
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21. "yes morality is a social construct and subjective. " In response to Reply # 9
But using the social construct we can draw subjective opinions whether certain behavior we see in nature is "good" or "bad".
There is no Objective natural morality. But I can see a cave man steal food from another cave man and decide if their behaviour is good or bad from my subjective view point.
>therefore someone being bad or good by people and by nature >are kind of seperate >subjectivness of morality and good and bad prevents me from >saying someone is born a certain way since those descriptors >evolve sometimes in a lifetime
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're
3. "I think the answer is self-ish. " In response to Reply # 0
By nature, people don't mind helping others. Probably even like to do it. Unless it comes at a true cost to themselves.
If you are stranded on and island and you have extra food, you will share it with strangers. If there wasn't enough food to go around, you might not share it. And then you will feel bad about it after they starve to death.
********** "Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're
16. "the desert island scenario could assume a lot of things tho. based on" In response to Reply # 3 Thu Aug-13-15 11:17 AM by Government Name
current societal norms. let's say you're born on this island alone. no human interaction. you grow up and a person/people who is starving approaches. they can't reach the melons/fish/etc.
is it human nature to: a. feed them b. ignore them or c. actively prevent them from taking "YOUR" food (it being your island and all)?
13. "neutral." In response to Reply # 11 Thu Aug-13-15 11:11 AM by SoWhat
back when i was a xtian i resented the idea that i'm a bad person by default and that i can only be a 'good person' and/or do good things via Jesus. i felt i was being taught to hate myself. it was odd to me and i was increasingly put-off by that notion. so now that i'm an atheist i flat-out refuse to believe that ppl are inherently bad. and i haven't shaken off all of that xtian mind control so i still wonder if ppl can be inherently good. for now i don't think we're inherently either.
17. "interesting. discussing this with someone else, they mentioned that" In response to Reply # 13
religion is the only reason many humans believe they're inherently "good." but now i wonder if he really (unknowingly) equated "special/chosen/etc." with good -- cause you're right, Christianity does basically teach you the opposite.
19. "RE: Are humans, by nature, "good" or "bad"? " In response to Reply # 0
You're born in a blank slate so no. Things you do as a baby are done instinctively whether good or bad... whatever that actually means. You learn as you grow based on others thoughts and beliefs as to what is good or bad but still have a mind of your own to challenge others beliefs. Good or bad is subjective, I think we can all admit that murder is a "bad" thing but yet under certain circumstances such as an individual being in a life threatening situation protecting themselves or others it can be a good thing.
I'm for truth no matter who tells it. I'm for justice no matter who it's for or against. - el Hajj Malik el Shabazz
Atillah Moor Member since Sep 05th 2013 13825 posts
Thu Aug-13-15 02:20 PM
55. "All of human history is Malcom's quote " In response to Reply # 26
About pulling a knife halfway out and calling it progress. The difference in regard to humanity as a whole is that the wound is self inflicted.
Is there "good" in there world-- yes of course. But the world is more evil than good. Just look around. It's this way because it is easy for man to justify evil and it is easy to justify because it is the direction in which we are all bent.
The proof is in the fact that children don't need to be taught how to lie.
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Everything looks like Oprah kissing Harvey Weinstein these days
28. "RE: humans by nature are empathetic and tend toward self-preservation" In response to Reply # 25
aren't these two things often at odds with each other? and does self-preservation mean preserving the human race (or your tribe on a smaller scale) or preserving yourself?
50. "self preservation usually means preserving yourself..." In response to Reply # 28
by nature, most humans are selfish because they are out for their own survival.
However, once a person has kids (or falls in love) then the concern for the "tribe" as you called it comes into play. Humans enter into agreements to live together and roam together as a means of self preservation. This at times could be I'm weaker and the only way I will survive is to be with these people. It could be something else. But preservation for species only arises once a person has children. how can we preserve this for our children? how can we make sure our children are ok? even if it's not their own children per se, this pack mentality about preserving a tribe is not an issue when it's a single person making it on their own.
56. "i do think that at times they are at odds with each other" In response to Reply # 28
that conflict is what makes us human -- the fact that those two traits coexist and play out in a myriad of ways
i do think self-preservation on a larger scale can mean concern for the preservation of the human race -- but empathy is also a strong component of giving thought to the well being of the human race
>aren't these two things often at odds with each other? and >does self-preservation mean preserving the human race (or your >tribe on a smaller scale) or preserving yourself?
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40. "the ppl engaged in those activities don't see them as evil." In response to Reply # 39
in most cases the ppl who commit those acts feel they have a valid justification or even that they don't need justification b/c what they're doing is right or 'good'.
that's why i say 'good' and 'bad' are subjective as related to human behavior.
while they're (infanticide/ cannibalism) not WITNESSED en masse on a consistent basis in this here country and the event of such is seemingly an anomaly, trust it's happening elsewhere, prolly even regularly, on this planet.
>hell, why haven't YOU committed any of them? assuming you >haven't, that is.
muhfucka, I'M GOD!
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>>then why don't see more of those behaviors? > >while they're (infanticide/ cannibalism) not WITNESSED en >masse on a consistent basis in this here country and the event >of such is seemingly an anomaly, trust it's happening >elsewhere, prolly even regularly, on this planet.
i agree those incidents happen. and they're minimal and whenever they happen or wherever ppl are rightly outraged and appalled.
i don't agree that we are 'naturally inclined' to commit those acts. i see them as anomalies in the human existence.
62. "RE: on a large scale? YES." In response to Reply # 61 Thu Aug-13-15 04:48 PM by Somnus
>i agree those incidents happen. and they're minimal and >whenever they happen or wherever ppl are rightly outraged and >appalled. > >i don't agree that we are 'naturally inclined' to commit those >acts. i see them as anomalies in the human existence.
infanticide/ genocide?
see: any and all (or at least most) dictators
cannibalism?
see: papa doc
and all the while the world at large turned a blind eye to these atrocities until the heat/fire rose too high to ignore.
minimal you say? Nooooo, sir.
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The ULTIMATE negation of everything.
The space between despair and orgasm is hard to fill ~ Maron
for me it all boils down to how you handle your baggage and bullshit I can be happy for my successful friends without a streak of shade or jealousy, that's a part of me striving to be good
generally speaking how a person conducts business speaks to their character
good and bad are socially defined by the community a person is born into. You are good if you follow the rules, bad if you act outside of those defined rules.
but in nature, most people would act according to what would help them survive. You can't define an act as good or bad unless you create that standard.
Outside of nature (how we live now), I'd still say neutral. most ppl are a mix of good and bad (as defined by society) but it balances out so that most people are just "Average" (not bad or good). on a scale of good to bad (good being whatever Saint you pick and bad being the biggest mass murderer of all time), most ppl fall in the middle. they are neither good or bad. they just are.
60. "most people are just looking out for themselves" In response to Reply # 0
Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's just a thing. The interesting thing is that middle class and poor people tend to be much more giving and equitable than wealthy people(rich people almost by rule don't give to real charities).
Most people aren't going to cause you physical harm, but they also aren't going to risk their own safety to help you.
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