Frank Longo Member since Nov 18th 2003 86672 posts
Thu Nov-19-09 08:24 AM
"Twilight as pro-chastity propaganda." Fri Nov-20-09 12:06 PM by Frank Longo
Goddamn, that movie was genius.
So with the new one coming out, and all my high school students talking about this shit, I bit the bullet and saw Twilight.
So it's a movie about an angsty girl and her intense boyfriend who have a passionate love for the ages... but the boy knows that by touching her, he'll go into an uncontrollable frenzy and he'll ruin her life. So he kisses her closed-mouth a couple of times, but other than that he stays away. She loves him so much that she wants to give in and make the same decision he made in the past, but he loves her too much to ruin her life and help her become that way.
No wonder parents buy their kids all this Twilight shit. It essentially discourages giving into temptation while not discouraging passionate love.
No wonder people over 21 missed the boat on this shit. We're all fucking.
Adults can handle temptation, giving in, and the consequences as adults. Teens are all pubescent and angsty and blow shit out of proportion. There's no way after five conversations that two adults would be talking about wanting to be together forever... but angsty teens ARE like that. It's very simplified, and teens understand these simple expressions of feeling in films/books.
Stephanie Meyer is a fucking genius. She created sex-free vampires as a metaphor for teens attempting to avoid making physical mistakes while acknowledging that the desire exists. No wonder she's rich.
3. "they did a segment on this on npr yesterday" In response to Reply # 0
they were talking to teen girls and they were gushing about how there's not any sex etc, and this dude they must know straight ganked the mic and was like, "Y'all are full of shit because all I hear you talk about is dude in the trailer with his shirt of and how if you were Bella, you'd be sexing ALL THE TIME."
7. "Nah there's not really any sex" In response to Reply # 6
I had this discussion with a co-worker who's read them all and hates them. She said the whole thing is about not having sex but having romance and obsessive compulsive boyfriends. Apparently something goes horribly awry in the last book to really scare these lil girls.
~~~~ When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries. ~~~~ You cannot hate people for their own good. ~~~~ dudes with glasses are hot
14. "a woman I work with got me to read two of the books last year" In response to Reply # 0
right before the first movie came out.
That was my first thought -- and it really creeped me the fuck out. Yeah, you want kids to be thoughtful when it comes to having sex, but I'm not sure telling them that it'll kill them or turn them into zombies is the right method.
I read also that Stephanie Meyers is Mormon and the ethics in the books are driven in large part by that.
~ ~ ~ All meetings end in separation All acquisition ends in dispersion All life ends in death - The Buddha
you turn away from the narnia chronicles? it's steeped in christian metaphor ~~~~ When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries. ~~~~ You cannot hate people for their own good. ~~~~ dudes with glasses are hot
~~~~ When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries. ~~~~ You cannot hate people for their own good. ~~~~ dudes with glasses are hot
62. "There's really a huge difference between " In response to Reply # 49
fables written by one of the Anglican Church's greatest modern theological writers who was primarily a theologian and only secondarily a children's writer -- and a follower (not a teacher) of the Mormon teachings.
When the Narnia books were originally published, there was no way you would pick one up without knowing in advance the background of the person who wrote them. That changed over time, but he never hid it and never pretended that he was writing something secular. And he never tried to trick anyone into behavior that he valued. If he thought there was inherent value in celibacy, he said so. He didn't frame a story in which having sex was equated with becoming a demon and losing all hope of a life in heaven hereafter.
~ ~ ~ All meetings end in separation All acquisition ends in dispersion All life ends in death - The Buddha
69. "oh jeez janey talk about having an agenda" In response to Reply # 62 Fri Nov-20-09 11:52 PM by lfresh
the other huge difference would be the age of the reader
i doubt the children who have read narnia from when it was published to now gave much thought to Lewis' religious leanings they liked the story
the same is happening here
i doubt you have to worry about these books aiding a turn to mormonism if donnie and marie couldn't do it in the 70s lol these books hold even less of a threat teenagers will happily fuck no worries on that score J ~~~~ When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries. ~~~~ You cannot hate people for their own good. ~~~~ dudes with glasses are hot
85. "you're concerned teenagers will have less sex?" In response to Reply # 82
you're concerned her 'meta message' will leak into teens heads and their thoughts will turn to guilt over sex?
no thats catholicism no wait judaism no wait those are everyone's parents
you're concerned that a sci-fi/fantasy book's message is too 'extreme' in it regard to chastity
she made it to age 18 god if that i don't think she made it to 17
ok what was the concern again? because it's sounding a bit like that christian concern over potter and its magic realism influencing children
it's not that deep
maybe the lesson some men and apparently some women can take away from these books is that women are shallow and driven by images of handsome men and like romance a lot alotalot a whole fucking lot like millions if not billions of dollars worth of alot it's not much deeper than porn really consider it female porn folks if it helps you keep on a basic very shallow level of discernment ~~~~ When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries. ~~~~ You cannot hate people for their own good.
18. "People over 21 missed this shit cuz it's fucking terrible crap." In response to Reply # 0
As an avid vampire movie fan who made fun of Twilight from the jump, i also bit the bullet and caught that bullshit on cable. How excruciatingly horrible. Just awful awful storytelling.
36. "It's like their version of GI Joe or Transformers movies" In response to Reply # 23
There are these movies that appeal to some emotionally stunted part of the brain that never graduated junior high. For guys it tends to be action movies based on comic books and 80s cartoon franchises. For women, Twilight is more about revisiting a time in their life where these kinds of conflicts and feelings were at their most intense (and on some level silly, for those willing to laugh at themselves a little). There's definitely a guilty pleasure element to it all for the women I know.
54. "the main difference is that we(men) see the movie and go, damn" In response to Reply # 36
that was pretty cool. these women are off in daydreamland every waking moment of their lives wishing they had a vampire boyfriend to take them away from their mundane lives, it falls somewhere on the scale of funny, to sad, to pathetic.
60. "I wasn't even aware they finally started showing it on cable." In response to Reply # 18
>As an avid vampire movie fan who made fun of Twilight from >the jump, i also bit the bullet and caught that bullshit on >cable. How excruciatingly horrible. Just awful awful >storytelling.
Which network is showing it? I'm tempted to hate on it just out of spite but I figure I should @ least give it a shot first.
26. ""Ruin her life" is one way of saying it" In response to Reply # 0
>So it's a movie about an angsty girl and her intense boyfriend >who have a passionate love for the ages... but the boy knows >that by touching her, he'll go into an uncontrollable frenzy >and he'll ruin her life.
"Ruin her life" in this instance is written as physical violence. Somewhat ironically, the subtext is less disturbing to me than the more literal interpretation that Bella can't live without Edward, but being with him may literally kill her because he'll lose control and blood, death, etc. Their epic love apparently makes this dynamic acceptable.
Also, why is "propaganda" always a bad word? Most of us wouldn't have any idea what to think without it. I know I'm not so smart to believe that I've formed any of my own opinions, and I'm pretty damn smart.
______________________________
"Walleye, a lot of things are going to go wrong in your life that technically aren't your fault. Always remember that this doesn't make you any less of an idiot"
63. "it's even worse than that" In response to Reply # 26
he won't kill her -- he'll turn her into the undead so she will be separated from God for eternity
That may be beyond Meyer's comprehension, though. I don't know whether she is able to see why a mainstream religion would find immortality as a vampire so awful.
~ ~ ~ All meetings end in separation All acquisition ends in dispersion All life ends in death - The Buddha
recruiters all over the world are eating their hearts out ~~~~ When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries. ~~~~ You cannot hate people for their own good. ~~~~ dudes with glasses are hot
i tend to get mad when thing i like get taken over by fandom ~~~~ When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries. ~~~~ You cannot hate people for their own good. ~~~~ dudes with glasses are hot
94. "and there goes the neighborhood" In response to Reply # 92
lol ~~~~ When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries. ~~~~ You cannot hate people for their own good.
42. "the teen sex metaphor is pretty blatant" In response to Reply # 0 Thu Nov-19-09 07:58 PM by buckshot defunct
But as far as 'pro-chastity propaganda'? I dunno. If that was the author's intent I don't think she did a very good job at it.
I mean think about it. Juno might actually be a better example of 'pro-chastity propaganda', just because some sex actually did happen, and actual real life consequences came from it. Ain't nobody camped outside the Tinseltown in a Michael Cera t-shirt with their hormones all in a flurry.
Twilight is more like a fairy tale, and I think its only agenda is to appeal to 13 year old girls. So yeah, sex is presented as an enticing, inevitable and somewhat dangerous prospect, because that's exactly what it is to young people.
Besides, every girl who saw that movie WANTS them to knock boots, so what the fuck kinda propaganda is that? The 'will they or won't they oh but they can't oh but they must' tension is there because girls eat that shit up. The *threat* of the relationship is what makes it so exciting. Notice how, at no point in the story, does he actually eat her. It's subtle but it's there.
I mean, you're dead on about why the books became a monster smash hit, I just disagree about the 'pro-chastity propaganda' part.
Oh, and parents "buy their kids all this Twilight shit" because they are scared of them. Have you seen what these mutants look like?
Frank Longo Member since Nov 18th 2003 86672 posts
Fri Nov-20-09 08:31 AM
52. "It's because it depicts teen girls as having sexual urges." In response to Reply # 42 Fri Nov-20-09 08:31 AM by Frank Longo
>Besides, every girl who saw that movie WANTS them to knock >boots, so what the fuck kinda propaganda is that? The 'will >they or won't they oh but they can't oh but they must' tension >is there because girls eat that shit up. The *threat* of the >relationship is what makes it so exciting. Notice how, at no >point in the story, does he actually eat her. It's subtle but >it's there.
Meyer's smart enough to know that no effective story will depict a teen girl as having nothing but pure feelings for the hot lusty stud. Of course teen girls want them to fuck, because they are having the exact same feelings. The moral of the story seems to be, "It's okay to WANT to fuck... just don't give in." Which I think makes for far more relatable propaganda than "You're a sinner if you think these things!"
65. "But why not give in?" In response to Reply # 52
That's what I don't think is clearly communicated in Twilight. Dude keeps telling her how he'd hate to turn her into a vampire and shit, but the concept of vampires is so ridiculously romanticized that it's hard to understand what's so bad about it. They look cool, they drive awesome cars, they live in a mansion, they don't have to go to sleep, they're great at baseball. The only downside is you stay a cool teenager forever and you sparkle in the sunlight. To what 13 year old girl is that a deterrent?
I guess that's what I'm getting at. The parable's there I suppose, it's just too poorly constructed for me to consider it one.
And (spoiler) they eventually do get down, from what I've heard of the books. Though that might be after they're married, which would go even farther to prove your point. It's definitely a conservative take on things, but in watching the movie I couldn't figure out if it was due to some intentional political shit, or some unintentional fairy tale shit.
70. "The vampire cool image is a commentary" In response to Reply # 65
about how our society glamorizes sex. I'd guess the reason for making seem cool instead as disgusting yet popular is to demonstrate the fact that a teenage girl is going to be excited to have sex but if she sticks to her guns and doesn't give into temptation she'll win in the long run.
Frank Longo Member since Nov 18th 2003 86672 posts
Sat Nov-21-09 12:22 PM
73. "Here's how I justify that:" In response to Reply # 71
Im Meyer's eyes (I believe), being a vampire, while having its otherworldly perks, is still not being human, and it comes with this terrible curse-- not being able to get close to someone without wanting to eat them. Edward DOES want to fuck, but he's the one smart enough to hold back, because he fully understands the danger-- he's been there before. Bella wants to fuck and doesn't care about the danger... she's still wanting it at the end.
So even though being a cool vampire is sexy, and I do believe the vampire wants to fuck... he's satisfied not fucking and knowing that regardless how desirable being on the other side may seem, he fully knows the curse that is attached to it.
But then again, Meyer writes on a 5th grade level. So maybe she didn't think it through to this degree.
51. "i take no issue with the six pack casting" In response to Reply # 43
~~~~ When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries. ~~~~ You cannot hate people for their own good. ~~~~ dudes with glasses are hot
46. "love > lust is the theme" In response to Reply # 0
with loads of over dramatic passion lol ~~~~ When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries. ~~~~ You cannot hate people for their own good. ~~~~ dudes with glasses are hot
BREAKING NEWS! SATURDAY 8:20AM UPDATE: "The night definitely belongs to Twilight." This is what a Hollywood insider told me early this morning after NEW MOON's late Friday night numbers came in. Summit Entertainment is now saying it debuted to $72.7 million from 4,024 North American theaters. This shatters both previous All-Time Friday and Single Day records of $67 million set by 2008's The Dark Knight.
The author of the book is a Mormon. Of course this is pro-chastity propaganda. You hit the nail on the head. The sad part is that it makes women look so weak as well. Bella= worst character ever. And Native Americans are dogs, heh... "Gross" c/o Eric Cartman.
____________________________ "the real pyramids were built with such precision that you can't slide a piece of paper between two 4,000 lb stones, and have shafts perfectly aligned so that you can see a tiny aperture through dozens of these mammoth blocks
80. "So my girl loves this shit, I was forced to sit thru it on sat" In response to Reply # 0
This was at the popular hood movie spot and it was filled with latina and black girls. Every time Cedric Diggery or the werewolf nigga got on the screen it was "oooohs and ahhhs" I was like damn should I scream too?
Anyway the movie was 2 hours of nothing I'd ever watch again. I'm curious how it ends so I'll probally go see the next 2 movies
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Frank Longo Member since Nov 18th 2003 86672 posts
Mon Nov-23-09 09:16 AM
81. "Saw the new one. The theme is DRILLED into us this time." In response to Reply # 0
So there's a hot guy with great abs she could be with... but she keeps him at arm's length, preferring the passion with the guy she wants to touch but can't. Then she gets the guy to agree to "transform" her... but only if they get married first! lol it's too obvious.
The movie itself is pretty dull, worse than the first imo, but better effects by a lot. Taylor Lautner is far more charming than Robert Pattinson, so it has that going for it, and certainly the girls let out a HUGE ooooooh when he first takes his shirt off, so the ladies might like it. But it's essentially plotless, two hours of getting to know Jacob and watching Bella want to see Edward again.
I still roll with Team Mike, the average joe that clearly stands no chance but provides much-needed comedy to the dreariness. Also, Michael Sheen HAMS IT UP to an impressive degree, making the final ten minutes or so actually entertaining.
86. "Boy, did this movie SUCK. " In response to Reply # 81
If I were a teen, this movie would GUARANTEE that I'm seeking sex by any means necessary in the hopes that I can avoid being as fucking annoying as these characters.
>The movie itself is pretty dull, worse than the first imo, but >better effects by a lot.
That's sad. I never saw the first, but these effects were horrible. Kudos to Summit for keeping costs low, though, considering the SHIT TON of money this movie made. Jacob's wig was the worst effect in a long time.
>Taylor Lautner is far more charming >than Robert Pattinson, so it has that going for it, a
There's no props for that. If you can't be the more charming of a guy that smiles and a guy that doesn't, just give up.
88. "question for you (SPOILERS re: end of the saga)" In response to Reply # 81
i can definitely see your and others' point about the pro-chastity angle. however, bella and edward marry and then she becomes pregnant. the baby is killing her, draining her, so edward turns bella into a vamp in order to save her life.
where/how does all that fit in with pro-chastity?
(to be cleat, i'm not disagreeing with the idea that's been posited. i'm just wondering what meyers is trying to say with that plotline.)
(to clarify further, i am not a twilight fan. i like sex and blood and fangs with my vamps. and muthaphuckas who burn in the sun, or if they're old enough, have built a certain immunity to it).
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