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AFRICAN
Charter member
11871 posts
Sat Feb-25-06 03:34 AM

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"Africans are not ready for democracy."


  

          

Every African whose ever talked politics,has heard that at some point or another.
It's usually stated in a semi-serious manner,usually with a touch of self hate.

I think I'm a believer though.
My views are personal and I don't claim to speak for anyone.

I think a dedicated,honest and rather ruthless dictator would actually be good.
Not because we are incapable of making intelligent decsions about our leaders.
Not because the lack of education.
But beacuse of tribalism.
Because of geopolitics.
Because of the goddamn Coup's every fucking month.

A dedicated junta,with a rigid agenda.5 years.Could do wonders.

-Education.Free schooling,raise the quality of textbooks,get children and parents involved in after school activities.BY FORCE.

-Health.Close down private clinics and hospitals and focus on basic healthcare and PREVENTION.Shit is not that complicated.

-Development.Stop warring with everyone and get those soldiers rehabilitating the rural areas.Infrastructure.Infrastructure.Infrastructure.

Regulate business.REGULATE BUSINESS.

Crack down on corruption.

Raise the standard of living.

Make use of your countrymen roaming the fucking globe,giving their resources,intelligence and expertise to others-and not by choice either,they gotta eat-.

Lay down the law for NGO's if they want to work.Specific targets that have to be met with a time frame.

No political activity for 5 years.Death sentence if you do-and yes a lot of folks will buck it,gotta die-.

Jail every ex-politician for 5 years-all those over the age of 30-.

Ban all political parties-esp on Univeristy campuses-.5 years.

This is all very glib and simplified,but you get my drift.

After these 5 years are over,hold elections-which the junta will not participate in- and hand over to the elected goverment.After putting into effect a very clear constitution.

The catch of course,is that I know no one-myself included- I'd trust with that kind of power.
But if I did,I'd throw myself behind them 100 %.

Attack this position if you will.

  

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Topic Outline
Subject Author Message Date ID
RE: Africans are not ready for democracy.
Feb 25th 2006
1
I have a taker
Feb 25th 2006
4
      RE: I have a taker
Feb 25th 2006
9
           RE: I have a taker
Feb 25th 2006
13
I am not well versed in politics but...
Feb 25th 2006
2
Me neither.
Feb 25th 2006
5
I kinda agree and disagree especially when it comes to Kenya..
Feb 25th 2006
3
From my very basic undrerstanding of Kenya
Feb 25th 2006
6
      you're correct sir...and now..China is entering the game...
Feb 25th 2006
7
      Indeed.
Feb 25th 2006
8
      RE: From my very basic undrerstanding of Kenya
Feb 25th 2006
31
           heck there's some dissention now with the Kikuyu's..whats the old saying...
Feb 25th 2006
33
                *ahem* and no disrespect if you're kikuyu...
Feb 25th 2006
34
                     mimi si mkikuyu... lakini ukweli ni ukweli..
Feb 25th 2006
57
                     sawa sawa...thank goodness I didn't want to disrepect *phew!*
Feb 27th 2006
93
                     Anyone who denies it is fooling themself lol
Feb 26th 2006
77
no plan to deal with AIDS?
Feb 25th 2006
10
actually you'd be amazed at some countries AIDS prevention programs
Feb 25th 2006
12
Is it working?
Feb 25th 2006
14
in some countries yes...as far as the Cartholic church, it doesn't hold
Feb 25th 2006
28
They were saying recently that Zimbabwe's prevalence rates went down
Feb 26th 2006
78
AIDS falls under healthcare, cure and prevention n/m.
Feb 25th 2006
15
      i was just surprised at the lack of a specific mention is all
Feb 25th 2006
16
           I didn't want to go off on tangents,
Feb 25th 2006
17
           well. you should've asked I would have gave you what you wanted and
Feb 25th 2006
29
You Wanna get real real AMERICANS ARE NOT READY
Feb 25th 2006
11
For the sake of argument
Feb 25th 2006
21
      The sad thing is that the majority of the world looks here
Mar 05th 2006
197
this is interesting
Feb 25th 2006
18
RE: this is interesting
Feb 25th 2006
20
Ironic you should bring this up right about now...
Feb 25th 2006
19
Even more ironic.............
Feb 25th 2006
22
      I'm sure she's got an official website w/ her itinerary or somethin'
Feb 25th 2006
39
i feel the same about indonesia
Feb 25th 2006
23
from what i hear
Feb 25th 2006
24
      the problem in indonesia is that all the educated/smart ppl move away
Feb 25th 2006
25
           The brain drain is crazy
Feb 25th 2006
40
I've got a completely unrelated question for you
Feb 25th 2006
26
I would like to assure the Congolese people
Feb 25th 2006
41
      I can help y'all access the gold for a (relatively) small fee
Feb 27th 2006
100
           * wires bank account # *
Feb 28th 2006
113
How willing are people to take those steps, though?
Feb 25th 2006
27
Not at all
Feb 25th 2006
43
jail every politician...
Feb 25th 2006
30
Indeed
Feb 25th 2006
46
corruption
Feb 25th 2006
32
See
Feb 25th 2006
49
      note on visa program
Feb 26th 2006
64
           You just hipped me to a majjor problem
Feb 26th 2006
66
i was gonna make a post about why coups don't happen in the West
Feb 25th 2006
35
You really should
Feb 25th 2006
50
      when has a dictatorship ever worked?
Feb 26th 2006
75
           HueyS... wont you just let us be idealistic for once...
Feb 26th 2006
76
           your idealism is colonized.
Feb 27th 2006
99
                actually, no its not.
Feb 27th 2006
106
           A lot.
Feb 27th 2006
83
                i guess it depends on how "work" is defined, right?
Feb 27th 2006
98
                     I guess so
Feb 27th 2006
103
so i take it you're a Chavez fan?
Feb 25th 2006
36
A little too flamboyant for my tastes
Feb 25th 2006
51
its been tried before
Feb 25th 2006
37
So do I man....I remain Optimistic too..
Feb 25th 2006
38
it helps that Ghana is doing relatively well these days
Feb 25th 2006
42
      yea , my with Ghana is the gov't needs to privatise the businesses there
Feb 25th 2006
44
           example Ghana airlines...the govt barely pays their bills when landing i...
Feb 25th 2006
45
                The issue there is corruption
Feb 25th 2006
48
                     I had a friend who a big manager for the company..and was flying over
Feb 25th 2006
55
They needed more power/force
Feb 25th 2006
52
placing the needs of the state above the freedom of the individual
Feb 25th 2006
47
I'll come back to this in the morning
Feb 25th 2006
53
The state consists of individuals
Feb 26th 2006
59
while i can see your logic in theory
Feb 25th 2006
54
We do need a wider middle class
Feb 26th 2006
60
Niggas need to read up on the Great Leap Forward
Feb 25th 2006
56
Step up my yout'
Feb 26th 2006
61
shariah is a better idea, hanafi influenced 1 tho.
Feb 25th 2006
58
You know what though?
Feb 26th 2006
62
Absoloute power corrupts.
Feb 26th 2006
63
en congo ahk.
Mar 03rd 2006
119
When you say "Jail every ex-politician for 5 years......"
Feb 26th 2006
65
Precautionary measures
Feb 26th 2006
67
      sustained....
Feb 26th 2006
72
           Lol
Feb 27th 2006
84
You all need to stop the bullshit.
Feb 26th 2006
68
Never gonna happen
Feb 26th 2006
69
      Basically
Feb 27th 2006
80
           What's the status on the currency unification?
Feb 27th 2006
85
                the plan was sort of an overlaying currency
Mar 04th 2006
166
FIRST, GET RID OF ALL THE OUTSIDERS!
Feb 26th 2006
70
the man said...
Feb 26th 2006
74
      Indeed
Feb 27th 2006
86
hm. doesnt s. africa disprove this theory? or r they exception to the ru...
Feb 26th 2006
71
no exceptions to no rules..
Feb 26th 2006
73
S.Africa is exactly why this is needed
Feb 27th 2006
89
      complex issues...
Mar 03rd 2006
117
What if this dictator/savior was a female?
Feb 26th 2006
79
*inhale*
Feb 27th 2006
81
see: Sierra Leone
Feb 27th 2006
82
Ha
Feb 27th 2006
91
wow. how ironic that you're hoping for an increase in the very
Feb 27th 2006
87
p.s. recommended reading for you:
Feb 27th 2006
88
I'll check for that
Feb 27th 2006
92
That book looks really interesting
Feb 27th 2006
95
How would it make things more fucked up?
Feb 27th 2006
90
      nah, what you 're calling for is *exactly* that....
Feb 27th 2006
94
           Not at all
Feb 27th 2006
96
           >>a brave new world type society<<<
Feb 27th 2006
97
                ^ and there it is!
Feb 27th 2006
101
                You nailed it
Feb 27th 2006
104
                Start with South Africa's "Truth and Reconciliation Commission"
Mar 02nd 2006
114
                     Assumptions, much? Zora?
Mar 04th 2006
167
                          actually, i'd like to see you attack these points...
Mar 04th 2006
169
                               I was hoping you'd ignore this particular post
Mar 05th 2006
176
                               its kinda hard to ignore a pink elephant in the room
Mar 05th 2006
186
                               same "bullshit calling" questions apply to you:
Mar 05th 2006
200
                                    Yes to all
Mar 06th 2006
201
                                         o' save the snarky...
Mar 06th 2006
206
                                              I don't do snark.
Mar 06th 2006
208
                                              did you forget the last statment?
Mar 06th 2006
211
                                              You win n/m.
Mar 06th 2006
212
                                                   there was never a contest...
Mar 06th 2006
213
                                              wahenga walinena: ukibishana na mjinga, utakuwa mjinga mwenyewe
Mar 06th 2006
214
                                             
Mar 06th 2006
218
                               All of this *speculation* but you ARE enjoying some rights and
Mar 05th 2006
199
                                    I'm actually shocked at all the things you said here Zora
Mar 06th 2006
215
                                    she got that good crab, les fleurs
Mar 06th 2006
216
                                    i was about to rate this the best "post-bongo" post
Mar 06th 2006
217
                                    lol @ post Bongo. you thought he was going for ever?
Mar 06th 2006
219
                                    i don't need nor desire your praise or permission...
Mar 06th 2006
225
                                         LOL either you're doing this on purpose or you're just being ignorant
Mar 06th 2006
231
                                              les fleurs, elle a une grande probleme avec moi,
Mar 06th 2006
232
                                    there's still a pink elephant in the room.
Mar 06th 2006
221
                                         wow. you are so unecessarily long winded...
Mar 06th 2006
226
                                              and reasoning with you is like reasoning with a padlock.
Mar 06th 2006
227
                                                   right. cause u certainly are an expert in African foreign affairs..
Mar 06th 2006
229
                                                        ^^^^^reasoning like a padlock: exhibit A
Mar 06th 2006
230
                                                             We're posting on OKP so we're not locals. stop making sense Akon!
Mar 06th 2006
233
                                                                  but im is learning so much about myself, les fleurs
Mar 06th 2006
236
                                                                       ^^^ comfort creature.
Mar 06th 2006
237
                                                                            <;--------spitting news bites well since 2000
Mar 06th 2006
238
Closest Nigeria came to that
Feb 27th 2006
102
A lot of that was on point
Feb 27th 2006
105
AFRICAN... we have to jail the civil servants too...
Feb 27th 2006
107
where does it end? you'd have to jail EVERY ONE.
Feb 27th 2006
108
maybe only the over 30's? (tongue in cheek)
Feb 27th 2006
109
wow
Feb 28th 2006
111
     
Mar 03rd 2006
121
^^^^ truth lurks ^^^^^^
Feb 27th 2006
110
Great point
Feb 28th 2006
112
*smh*
Mar 02nd 2006
116
I FEEL THE EXACT SAME WAY ABOUT HAITI
Mar 02nd 2006
115
"benevolent despotism"
Mar 03rd 2006
118
      cab drivers r the BEST politicians
Mar 03rd 2006
120
           Seriously
Mar 04th 2006
122
oh god
Mar 04th 2006
123
Welcome san,
Mar 04th 2006
126
      then...
Mar 04th 2006
128
           For a couple of reasons
Mar 04th 2006
138
                RE: For a couple of reasons
Mar 04th 2006
154
                     The thing is
Mar 04th 2006
155
                          i thought....
Mar 04th 2006
162
Will Africa ever be A Great Nation again?
Mar 04th 2006
124
has it ever been ?
Mar 04th 2006
125
5000 years ago? it was great enough that europe had to come and rape it
Mar 04th 2006
129
      Nope
Mar 04th 2006
130
      not even then?!?!
Mar 04th 2006
134
           why is named ALEXANDRIA, young palawan ?
Mar 04th 2006
136
                RE: why is named ALEXANDRIA, young palawan ?
Mar 04th 2006
139
                     The name Alexandria was not chosen by Egyptians n/m.
Mar 04th 2006
145
                     OoOooooooOOoOoh. Educate me.
Mar 04th 2006
147
                          Alexander the Great
Mar 04th 2006
151
                          *prints articles*
Mar 04th 2006
156
                               My pleasure
Mar 04th 2006
158
                          RE: OoOooooooOOoOoh. Educate me.
Mar 05th 2006
193
                     i meant why do you think it's named ALEXANDRIA
Mar 04th 2006
146
                          OoOooOh. Again.
Mar 04th 2006
148
      define great and define what they "raped"
Mar 04th 2006
133
           great meaning
Mar 04th 2006
137
                So was Timbactoo
Mar 04th 2006
142
Like the man implied
Mar 04th 2006
127
well if africa can get to a place were things are peaceful
Mar 04th 2006
132
      i think some of us have some more urgent dreams
Mar 04th 2006
135
           The burden of the diaspora
Mar 04th 2006
140
           i know some of you do. so do i. but where do you start
Mar 04th 2006
141
                OVERTHROW THE GOVERMENT!
Mar 04th 2006
143
                     well isnt that the problem right now
Mar 04th 2006
150
                          I was half joking
Mar 04th 2006
152
                               you shouldn't be..
Mar 04th 2006
160
                                    aka. Nimeri
Mar 04th 2006
161
                                         we need to start a post reminiscing about the '80's, fam
Mar 04th 2006
165
                                         We really do.
Mar 05th 2006
178
                                              *this made me laugh
Mar 05th 2006
187
                                         Same thing that happened to Nkrumah
Mar 04th 2006
168
Africa is NOT a nation!
Mar 04th 2006
173
the issue is the level of authoritarism...
Mar 04th 2006
131
That is the price to pay for stability
Mar 04th 2006
144
      hmmmmmm
Mar 04th 2006
149
           I didn't know they were his family
Mar 04th 2006
153
           agreed.
Mar 04th 2006
157
I'd like to state for the record
Mar 04th 2006
159
haha, okp might pull a Daryl_Licke (sp?) and provide you with some
Mar 04th 2006
164
      No paypal please
Mar 05th 2006
180
"Democracy is the worst kind of government...
Mar 04th 2006
163
The bulldog had his moments.
Mar 05th 2006
183
plz archive
Mar 04th 2006
170
not yet... i'd like some different points of view
Mar 04th 2006
171
Oh yeah. What about the missoinaries?
Mar 04th 2006
172
ship them back to where they came from.
Mar 05th 2006
175
Same as all 'foriegn' organisations
Mar 05th 2006
182
All those who are like save Africa and unite Africa....
Mar 04th 2006
174
Don't save her/she don't wanna be saved?
Mar 05th 2006
181
      Hhahaahah. You got all E-40 on me with that......
Mar 05th 2006
198
RE: Africans are not ready for democracy.
Mar 05th 2006
177
There's a lot to be learned from that lesson
Mar 05th 2006
179
RE: There's a lot to be learned from that lesson
Mar 05th 2006
184
*copy, paste, print...
Mar 05th 2006
188
Tried, yes at least in the beginning
Mar 05th 2006
189
      RE: Tried, yes at least in the beginning
Mar 05th 2006
190
           hmm, that's a complex question
Mar 06th 2006
235
..and GD continues to outplay the Activist board at it's own game.
Mar 05th 2006
185
Thanks for reading
Mar 06th 2006
207
NOW: Lets discuss the recent events in Kenya: govt raiding Media offices
Mar 05th 2006
191
A government that has gone mad
Mar 05th 2006
192
"if you rattle a snake, expect to be bitten"
Mar 05th 2006
194
      State's proverbial hammer response
Mar 05th 2006
195
           What options are there for the Government?
Mar 05th 2006
196
                Interesting enough, the gov't owns Kenyan Times but not The Standard
Mar 06th 2006
210
He just embarassed himself again
Mar 06th 2006
202
Uhhhhh...Gain!!!! *shakes head*
Mar 06th 2006
209
March 6th: Ghana's independence day, no??
Mar 06th 2006
222
      yup. 49 years old
Mar 06th 2006
223
I swear they shut down a paper every day here
Mar 06th 2006
205
actually, do lets talk about this..
Mar 07th 2006
241
i sympathize, but that's only in theory
Mar 06th 2006
203
That is the crucial/pivotal/focal/ whathaveyou, point in this issue.
Mar 06th 2006
204
I couldn't find your post on Africa &amp; China, but I thought I'd post ...
Mar 06th 2006
220
wow..good post.
Mar 06th 2006
224
"anagers and translators live in barracks-style accommodation....."
Mar 06th 2006
228
Not to get sidetracked
Mar 07th 2006
240
I trust them about as far as I can throw the country
Mar 06th 2006
234
I guess it fell off.
Mar 07th 2006
239
Eliminate Military Expense
Mar 07th 2006
242
reduce Military Expense
Mar 08th 2006
243
I can clap to your wishlist
Mar 10th 2006
246
nah, stronger more proffesional militaries are needed
Apr 05th 2006
251
Koffi Anan: Courage to fulfil our responsibilities
Mar 09th 2006
244
what is the role of the UN in africa?
Mar 09th 2006
245
      I *HATE* the U.N
Mar 10th 2006
247
           i was missing this post.
Mar 25th 2006
248
i think we should archive this post
Mar 25th 2006
249
My co-author.Salut'.
Apr 05th 2006
253
*edit: what''s been happening in kenya
Apr 05th 2006
250
Government faces Sh2.7 billion suit over secret project
Apr 05th 2006
252

Freduardo
Member since Nov 12th 2002
983 posts
Sat Feb-25-06 03:53 AM

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1. "RE: Africans are not ready for democracy."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

well, your disclaimer kind of killed the whole thing, but i'll go for some of these anyway.

>I think a dedicated,honest and rather ruthless dictator would
>actually be good.

lol @ dedicated and honest.

>Not because we are incapable of making intelligent decsions
>about our leaders.
>Not because the lack of education.
>But beacuse of tribalism.
>Because of geopolitics.
>Because of the goddamn Coup's every fucking month.

true but WHY are those factors such an issue?

>A dedicated junta,with a rigid agenda.5 years.Could do
>wonders.
>
>-Education.Free schooling,raise the quality of textbooks,get
>children and parents involved in after school activities.BY
>FORCE.

lol @ mental picture of after school soccer by force.
'i don't wanna play goalie!' *butt of rifle to the ribs*

>-Health.Close down private clinics and hospitals and focus on
>basic healthcare and PREVENTION.Shit is not that complicated.

close down hospitals? ummm...

>-Development.Stop warring with everyone and get those soldiers
>rehabilitating the rural
>areas.Infrastructure.Infrastructure.Infrastructure.
>
>Regulate business.REGULATE BUSINESS.
>
>Crack down on corruption.
>
>Raise the standard of living.
>
>Make use of your countrymen roaming the fucking globe,giving
>their resources,intelligence and expertise to others-and not
>by choice either,they gotta eat-.

more specifically? repatriate wages from abroad? volunteer? how does it get enforced in foreign jurisdictions?

>Lay down the law for NGO's if they want to work.Specific
>targets that have to be met with a time frame.
>
>No political activity for 5 years.Death sentence if you do-and
>yes a lot of folks will buck it,gotta die-.

ok...

>Jail every ex-politician for 5 years-all those over the age of
>30-.
>
>Ban all political parties-esp on Univeristy campuses-.5
>years.
>
>This is all very glib and simplified,but you get my drift.

haha glib indeed

>After these 5 years are over,hold elections-which the junta
>will not participate in- and hand over to the elected
>goverment.After putting into effect a very clear
>constitution.

who/what can regulate this enlightened junta at this point?
who makes the constitution what with all the politicians presumably dead or in prison or in exile by now?

>The catch of course,is that I know no one-myself included- I'd
>trust with that kind of power.
>But if I did,I'd throw myself behind them 100 %.

ah!

  

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AFRICAN
Charter member
11871 posts
Sat Feb-25-06 04:17 AM

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4. "I have a taker"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

>well, your disclaimer kind of killed the whole thing, but
>i'll go for some of these anyway.
>I'm trying to discuss,not get crucified.
>>I think a dedicated,honest and rather ruthless dictator
>would
>>actually be good.
>
>lol @ dedicated and honest.
>
But why does it have to be an oxymoron?Semantics aside,I'm using dictator as someone who is in power by force.Realistically,n o one who is elected will ever have the guts to push for these or any,real reform.It's too painful.They need to get re-elected.A dictator would not give a fuck.Correct?And assuming that his motives were good and he/they had some basic agenda with acheivable goals,it's doable.

>true but WHY are those factors such an issue?

That's a whole other post.Breifly though,foriegn involvement-political/military and economical-.
Tribalism is democracy's Kryptonite.People vote for their kin folk,regardless.Politicians look out for their small circle,at the expense of others.It can get ugly-see Rwanda-.

>lol @ mental picture of after school soccer by force.
>'i don't wanna play goalie!' *butt of rifle to the ribs*

While you think I'm playing.I'm not.lol.Not even futbol,just parents being involved with their children's education.BY FORCE.After school activities to give these children outlets for their frustrations and talents.Make education more than something to keep them busy.Make it relevant.And while I'm on the topic,kick start technical schools.Make skilled labour worthwhile.

>
>close down hospitals? ummm...
>
Yep.Turn them all into public hospitals.Doctors are so poorly paid,it's inevitable they turn to the private sector for employment.Poor people get fucked in the process.It's the only way IMO too get the health system up and running-see Cuba,first class health care-.

>more specifically? repatriate wages from abroad? volunteer?
>how does it get enforced in foreign jurisdictions?
>
Build it and they will come.I know someone who came back to Sudan to share his expertise and was shunned and then offered a sum he could not accept.He didn't expect a huge check,but something reasonable.Offer relatively reasonable pay and a chance to actually USE their knowledge and the brain drain could be reversed.No force involved in this one,you have to baby and cajole these folks.And it all comes down to the lack of technocrats in Africa.Politicians get/give jobs based on loyalty not merit-this is true to a lesser extent,everywhere,but still not on this scale-.

>>Lay down the law for NGO's if they want to work.Specific
>>targets that have to be met with a time frame.
>>
>>No political activity for 5 years.Death sentence if you
>do-and
>>yes a lot of folks will buck it,gotta die-.
>
>ok...

I'm saying.

>>Jail every ex-politician for 5 years-all those over the age
>of
>>30-.
>>
>>Ban all political parties-esp on Univeristy campuses-.5
>>years.
>>
>>This is all very glib and simplified,but you get my drift.
>
>haha glib indeed
>
I know.But it serves the purpose of this post.I'm not trying to put together a manual,just discuss the merits of this not-so-new-idea,realistically.

>who/what can regulate this enlightened junta at this point?
>who makes the constitution what with all the politicians
>presumably dead or in prison or in exile by now?
>
This is tricky.Itself.If you let the politicians have a say at this point,you're back at square one and all hell breaks loose.Presumably the enlightened junta as you put it,would have been well prepared before they stage a coup-five years is good enough-.This junta is not neccassarily comprised of miltary only.Professors,experts of various kinds.etc.

>>The catch of course,is that I know no one-myself included-
>I'd
>>trust with that kind of power.
>>But if I did,I'd throw myself behind them 100 %.
>
This is the weakest link.I'll be honest and say I can't see a way around it either.But I can dream right?

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
instagram:@3rdworldview
Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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Freduardo
Member since Nov 12th 2002
983 posts
Sat Feb-25-06 04:56 AM

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9. "RE: I have a taker"
In response to Reply # 4


  

          

>But why does it have to be an oxymoron?Semantics aside,I'm
>using dictator as someone who is in power by
>force.Realistically,n o one who is elected will ever have the
>guts to push for these or any,real reform.It's too
>painful.They need to get re-elected.A dictator would not give
>a fuck.Correct?And assuming that his motives were good and
>he/they had some basic agenda with acheivable goals,it's
>doable.

fair enough. i guess my beef is with the righteous motives assumption.
true a set agenda would be doable with no opposition, but what happens after said items are accomplished? dicatator dude can do whatever...

>>lol @ mental picture of after school soccer by force.
>>'i don't wanna play goalie!' *butt of rifle to the ribs*
>
>While you think I'm playing.I'm not.lol.Not even futbol,just
>parents being involved with their children's education.BY
>FORCE.After school activities to give these children outlets
>for their frustrations and talents.Make education more than
>something to keep them busy.Make it relevant.And while I'm on
>the topic,kick start technical schools.Make skilled labour
>worthwhile.

w.r.t. after school involvement, why do you figure parents aren't involved now? is force a necessity in making parents look after their kids or is there an economic or cultural explanation?

i've been to relatively poor countries where education is paramount from kindergaten on up despite university grads having shit opportuninites (poland, romania, turkey). the kids perform very well in international competition and many bright people leave for overseas.

>>close down hospitals? ummm...
>>
>Yep.Turn them all into public hospitals.Doctors are so poorly
>paid,it's inevitable they turn to the private sector for
>employment.Poor people get fucked in the process.It's the only
>way IMO too get the health system up and running-see
>Cuba,first class health care-.

haha this could be a whole other post for me, but i'll leave it at this: unless pay rates for doctors in the public sector went up to the level of the private sector, you would still be faced with a shortage of skilled personnel. people can ignore incentives if they so choose, but under unrestricted movement even cuba would look very different.

>>more specifically? repatriate wages from abroad? volunteer?
>>how does it get enforced in foreign jurisdictions?
>>
>Build it and they will come.I know someone who came back to
>Sudan to share his expertise and was shunned and then offered
>a sum he could not accept.He didn't expect a huge check,but
>something reasonable.Offer relatively reasonable pay and a
>chance to actually USE their knowledge and the brain drain
>could be reversed.No force involved in this one,you have to
>baby and cajole these folks.And it all comes down to the lack
>of technocrats in Africa.Politicians get/give jobs based on
>loyalty not merit-this is true to a lesser
>extent,everywhere,but still not on this scale-.

good points.

>>who/what can regulate this enlightened junta at this point?
>>who makes the constitution what with all the politicians
>>presumably dead or in prison or in exile by now?
>>
>This is tricky.Itself.If you let the politicians have a say at
>this point,you're back at square one and all hell breaks
>loose.Presumably the enlightened junta as you put it,would
>have been well prepared before they stage a coup-five years is
>good enough-.This junta is not neccassarily comprised of
>miltary only.Professors,experts of various kinds.etc.

hmmm. so you don't see it as desirable that they hand over power to an ellected govt again? what incentive does the junta have to ever relinquish power, or do you see them ruling indefinitely? do the pre-existing problems of patronage and corruption in the political system get addressed as a result?

>>>The catch of course,is that I know no one-myself included-
>>I'd
>>>trust with that kind of power.
>>>But if I did,I'd throw myself behind them 100 %.
>>
>This is the weakest link.I'll be honest and say I can't see a
>way around it either.But I can dream right?

of course

  

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AFRICAN
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13. "RE: I have a taker"
In response to Reply # 9


  

          


>fair enough. i guess my beef is with the righteous motives
>assumption.
>true a set agenda would be doable with no opposition, but what
>happens after said items are accomplished? dicatator dude can
>do whatever...

I understand your concern,it is a legit one too.The junta would be in rule for 5 years and five years only.There should be some kind of precaution so as to see that they/he steps down after that interim period-forcibly if need be-.

>w.r.t. after school involvement, why do you figure parents
>aren't involved now? is force a necessity in making parents
>look after their kids or is there an economic or cultural
>explanation?
>
Both.While most parents want the best for their children,a lot,esp. those who need their children to help earn income,don't neccassarily view education as a viable option.Some sort of income balancer would be needed,plus strict laws that make it not worth the effort of dodging schooling for kids.Esp. girls in rural areas.

>i've been to relatively poor countries where education is
>paramount from kindergaten on up despite university grads
>having shit opportuninites (poland, romania, turkey). the kids
>perform very well in international competition and many bright
>people leave for overseas.
>
Brain drain is real.The third and second world,producest some of the brightest scholars in the world,only to have them leave elsewhere-it could be argued that they made it despite their education or lack of-.We need those people back.At any cost.


>haha this could be a whole other post for me, but i'll leave
>it at this: unless pay rates for doctors in the public sector
>went up to the level of the private sector, you would still be
>faced with a shortage of skilled personnel. people can ignore
>incentives if they so choose, but under unrestricted movement
>even cuba would look very different.
Private sector will always pay more.ALWAYS.By eleiminating that option,a huge # of Dr.'s would revert to the public care system.Their wages should also reflect their level of education and the cost of living.But not as high as the private sector.Peoples health is not a business.What happened to Hippocrates oath?

>hmmm. so you don't see it as desirable that they hand over
>power to an ellected govt again? what incentive does the junta
>have to ever relinquish power, or do you see them ruling
>indefinitely? do the pre-existing problems of patronage and
>corruption in the political system get addressed as a result?

>The five years is focal to the whole plan.Anything less,is not enough to enforce their agenda,any more leaves room-more- for power to corrupt them.They are there to push through a specific phase and then leave.Nothing more nothing less.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
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Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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imperial
Member since May 30th 2003
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Sat Feb-25-06 04:00 AM

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2. "I am not well versed in politics but..."
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Feb-25-06 04:07 AM by imperial

  

          

I agree with you on this one:

get children and parents involved in after school activities.BY FORCE.

but in some schools its impossible to get the students and parents involved in scholastic activities like home work and showing up for class etc.


<<----rock rock ya'll

It takes a man to take a stand,but understand it takes a woman to make a stronger man.(c) Chuck D

  

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AFRICAN
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5. "Me neither."
In response to Reply # 2


  

          

and that's why I said by force.There will always be people who don't give a fuck.And the children pay.Faced with a stiff fine,I'm sure the vast majority will get involved-provided you explain the basic idea,but not too detailed,it's not a discussion,just clarificaton-.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
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Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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Abdurrashid
Member since Jun 20th 2002
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3. "I kinda agree and disagree especially when it comes to Kenya.."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

I mean Kenya has to get over the Neo Colonialism hump....

and the tribalistic bickering....there's just too many parties in the firs place....




"The camel never sees its own hump but that of its brothers is always before its eyes"- N.African proverb

***The OKMuhajideen***

  

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AFRICAN
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6. "From my very basic undrerstanding of Kenya"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

-and feel free to correct my ignorance- the economy is basically run/owned by foreigners.This is where the junta would come in handy.Pull an educated Idi Amin on folks.Take back the economy.
Squash Tribalism.FORCIBLY.I can't see a peaceful solution to this problem.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
instagram:@3rdworldview
Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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Abdurrashid
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Sat Feb-25-06 04:23 AM

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7. "you're correct sir...and now..China is entering the game..."
In response to Reply # 6


  

          


"The camel never sees its own hump but that of its brothers is always before its eyes"- N.African proverb

***The OKMuhajideen***

  

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AFRICAN
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8. "Indeed."
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

so it won't get any better,unless drastic measures are taken.
How drastic is debatable.

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akon
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31. "RE: From my very basic undrerstanding of Kenya"
In response to Reply # 6


  

          

>-and feel free to correct my ignorance- the economy is
>basically run/owned by foreigners.This is where the junta
>would come in handy.Pull an educated Idi Amin on folks.Take
>back the economy.

those racist wahindi... yes!! since they already have dual citizenship with britain... yes!!! i have no love for that class of people.
and those barely qualified foreigners making millions because of their skin colour...... (shit i can name a few)

tribalism. tanzanians did it. tribalism has become a political issue. i think once we take the politics out.... yes tribes might continute disliking each other but not to the point of grabbing machetes and shit. many of the tribal clashes in kenya were instigated and the problem was that a majority just went with the flow of fear. if politician x goes to a community to instigate he should be hung. plain and simple.



>Squash Tribalism.FORCIBLY.I can't see a peaceful solution to
>this problem.

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Abdurrashid
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Sat Feb-25-06 10:46 AM

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33. "heck there's some dissention now with the Kikuyu's..whats the old saying..."
In response to Reply # 31


  

          

>tribalism. tanzanians did it. tribalism has become a
>political issue. i think once we take the politics out....
>yes tribes might continute disliking each other but not to the
>point of grabbing machetes and shit. many of the tribal
>clashes in kenya were instigated and the problem was that a
>majority just went with the flow of fear. if politician x
>goes to a community to instigate he should be hung. plain and
>simple.
>
>
>
>>Squash Tribalism.FORCIBLY.I can't see a peaceful solution to
>>this problem.
>

"If you drop one shilling on the ground....a Kikuyu would turn over in his/her grave to try and grab it...." LOL! damn..... but you're right it wouldn't reach to the point of tribal violence. I just don't see that happening....


"The camel never sees its own hump but that of its brothers is always before its eyes"- N.African proverb

***The OKMuhajideen***

  

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Abdurrashid
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Sat Feb-25-06 10:49 AM

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34. "*ahem* and no disrespect if you're kikuyu..."
In response to Reply # 33


  

          


"The camel never sees its own hump but that of its brothers is always before its eyes"- N.African proverb

***The OKMuhajideen***

  

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akon
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57. "mimi si mkikuyu... lakini ukweli ni ukweli.."
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

wanapenda mbesha/

>
>"The camel never sees its own hump but that of its brothers is
>always before its eyes"- N.African proverb
>
>***The OKMuhajideen***

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Abdurrashid
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93. "sawa sawa...thank goodness I didn't want to disrepect *phew!*"
In response to Reply # 57


  

          


"The camel never sees its own hump but that of its brothers is always before its eyes"- N.African proverb

***The OKMuhajideen***

  

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mint_088
Member since Aug 24th 2005
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Sun Feb-26-06 10:07 PM

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77. "Anyone who denies it is fooling themself lol"
In response to Reply # 34


  

          

_______________________________________________
https://twitter.com/xpensivejoke

  

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KayCee
Member since Jul 31st 2005
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Sat Feb-25-06 05:15 AM

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10. "no plan to deal with AIDS?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

without that there's no point in trying building a better africa

_ _ _ _ _ _
www.blackbeat.com.au
Tomorrow's RnB, HipHop and Soul

www.myspace.com/dj_kaycee

  

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Abdurrashid
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12. "actually you'd be amazed at some countries AIDS prevention programs"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          


they're even better than the US based programs..

"The camel never sees its own hump but that of its brothers is always before its eyes"- N.African proverb

***The OKMuhajideen***

  

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KayCee
Member since Jul 31st 2005
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Sat Feb-25-06 05:33 AM

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14. "Is it working?"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

and how much of it is being counteracted by the catholic church.
Their "condoms dont prevent aids" propoganda is what made me renounce my catholosism. try tell me that jesus would prefer to see people die than have them use condoms? eff that

_ _ _ _ _ _
www.blackbeat.com.au
Tomorrow's RnB, HipHop and Soul

www.myspace.com/dj_kaycee

  

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Abdurrashid
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Sat Feb-25-06 10:27 AM

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28. "in some countries yes...as far as the Cartholic church, it doesn't hold"
In response to Reply # 14


  

          

much weight in some countries either....(a non facto issue) so that really depends on what country we're talking about specifically....

look at the recent decline numbers in the Zimbabwe...

"The camel never sees its own hump but that of its brothers is always before its eyes"- N.African proverb

***The OKMuhajideen***

  

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mint_088
Member since Aug 24th 2005
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78. "They were saying recently that Zimbabwe's prevalence rates went down"
In response to Reply # 12


  

          

_______________________________________________
https://twitter.com/xpensivejoke

  

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AFRICAN
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15. " AIDS falls under healthcare, cure and prevention n/m."
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
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Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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KayCee
Member since Jul 31st 2005
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Sat Feb-25-06 05:36 AM

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16. "i was just surprised at the lack of a specific mention is all"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

_ _ _ _ _ _
www.blackbeat.com.au
Tomorrow's RnB, HipHop and Soul

www.myspace.com/dj_kaycee

  

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AFRICAN
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17. "I didn't want to go off on tangents,"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

and trust, Malaria kills more people-in Sudan- than AIDS,it just makes for less glamorous news.And the same applies to a host of other epidemics.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
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Abdurrashid
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Sat Feb-25-06 10:29 AM

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29. "well. you should've asked I would have gave you what you wanted and"
In response to Reply # 16


  

          

told you to do your homework at the same time....

no probs..


"The camel never sees its own hump but that of its brothers is always before its eyes"- N.African proverb

***The OKMuhajideen***

  

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black_slate
Member since Jan 08th 2006
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Sat Feb-25-06 05:19 AM

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11. "You Wanna get real real AMERICANS ARE NOT READY"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

That is evident in our military acctions we're ready to go for capitalism but not for DEMOCRACY we hit 2 and not all of he definitions
de·moc·ra·cy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-mkr-s)
n. pl. de·moc·ra·cies
1.Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives. A political or social unit that has such a government.
2.The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
3.Majority rule.
4.The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.


OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPS WE DON'T HIT ANY OF EM MY BAD

http://www.theflasharchive.com/f/f-50.htm < the truth watch and be inspired

Did you know? I am not my hair,I am not this skin...I am not your expectations
find out who I is below
http://www.myspace.com/iwishiwasntme
<---make black history every day

  

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AFRICAN
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21. "For the sake of argument"
In response to Reply # 11


  

          

what would you suggest as an alternative?
The two situations although sharing some simlarities,differ enormously.

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black_slate
Member since Jan 08th 2006
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197. "The sad thing is that the majority of the world looks here"
In response to Reply # 21


  

          

and either believes that we are the shining example of 'democracy' and therefore attempt to replicate what they see. We are for money, we left britain because of money and we are floundering because of money. I am for a social democracy and elected officials for 2 years not four. I am in America and I don't like it not one effin bit. The constitution is beautiful on paper you read the opening line, you get all warm and patriotic inside and you look around you and you see the bullshit a'plenty. 'this ain't what is on this paper here!!!!' and you wrap it aroujnd your hand and wipe ya ass with it. Government is a funny thing...beautiful for those in power and a nightmare for those that aren't. The systems of government on the continent are not ones grown there, unless in a tribal setting and 'big government has forgetten about them anyway, it is the birthing of a European mindset and will not die.

http://www.theflasharchive.com/f/f-50.htm < the truth watch and be inspired

Did you know? I am not my hair,I am not this skin...I am not your expectations
find out who I is below
http://www.myspace.com/iwishiwasntme
<---make black history every day

  

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IkeMoses
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18. "this is interesting"
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Feb-25-06 06:22 AM by IkeMoses

  

          

i'm not sure how i'd be able to weigh in on the subject, if at all, but your stance has merit.

as westernized as i am it's hard for me to conceive anything other than democracy as being acceptable, but i can't reject dictatorships outright.

i will say that african nations at large haven't had the opportunity to experience democracy without outside influence though. a lot of the tribalist conflicts are instigated by forces from outside the continent, as you well know.

but maybe it's an issue of culture. maybe most african cultures value the virtues of conviction more than the practicality of compromise (this may be an american projection on my behalf though).

i can't call it.

-30-

nat turners w/ burners.

  

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AFRICAN
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20. "RE: this is interesting"
In response to Reply # 18


  

          

>i'm not sure how i'd be able to weigh in on the subject, if
>at all, but your stance has merit.
>
Your opinion is valued.More than you imagine.Some time ago, members of the Black congressional caucus visited Sudan.They-and in turn,you- have a direct influence on American policy and the publics perception of us and our problems-a good part which are mutual-.Sidenote the Kilpatricks dissapointed the hell out of me.

>as westernized as i am it's hard for me to conceive anything
>other than democracy as being acceptable, but i can't reject
>dictatorships outright.

We've all been conditioned in some way or form.It's hard to imagine any other viable form of goverment.

>i will say that african nations at large haven't had the
>opportunity to experience democracy without outside influence
>though. a lot of the tribalist conflicts are instigated by
>forces from outside the continent, as you well know.
>
Indeed.

>but maybe it's an issue of culture. maybe most african
>cultures value the virtues of conviction more than the
>practicality of compromise (this may be an american projection
>on my behalf though).

We ride hard.Sometimes for the wrong causes.I really can't see a peaceful consensus on any major issue.And when politicians get together,it turns into a zoo.And you're right to a great extent,tribalism trumps almost all other cards.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
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Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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LiquidDope
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19. "Ironic you should bring this up right about now..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=9&topic_id=75935&mesg_id=75935&page=

  

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AFRICAN
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22. "Even more ironic............."
In response to Reply # 19


  

          

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
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Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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LiquidDope
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39. "I'm sure she's got an official website w/ her itinerary or somethin'"
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

Go check it out.

  

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Deluge
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Sat Feb-25-06 07:39 AM

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23. "i feel the same about indonesia"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

  

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KayCee
Member since Jul 31st 2005
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Sat Feb-25-06 07:54 AM

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24. "from what i hear"
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

indonesia is moving towards this now, well as close as this can get to in reality?

_ _ _ _ _ _
www.blackbeat.com.au
Tomorrow's RnB, HipHop and Soul

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Deluge
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Sat Feb-25-06 07:58 AM

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25. "the problem in indonesia is that all the educated/smart ppl move away"
In response to Reply # 24


  

          

i mean i understand why they do
but it will never change the situation
everybody and they moms are corrupt out there
isnt it great to know how tsunami money went straight to the pocket of those corrupt mofos

  

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AFRICAN
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Sat Feb-25-06 11:24 AM

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40. "The brain drain is crazy"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

and yet still,Indonesia is light years ahead of us.

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les_fleurs
Member since Aug 23rd 2003
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Sat Feb-25-06 09:32 AM

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26. "I've got a completely unrelated question for you"
In response to Reply # 0
Sat Feb-25-06 09:33 AM by les_fleurs

          

So apparently Congolese rebels from the 60s have stolen lots of money
and natural resources (gold - and diamonds i believe)
and apparently a group of them fleed to Sudan
and were ordered to ask your government to keep their gold in the central bank
30 years later the value has quadrutripled
the gold is worth billions of dollars
And is said to be sitting in y'alls central bank
have you heard about this?

'cause a serious journalist wrote that story
it sounds like a movie script
and folks don't really know if it's true
but yeah so this old ex rebel is the only one
who knows where the gold is, and the combination key and shit
he won't tell anyone but apparently the gold is there

damn I forgot parts of the story
but basically yeah
y'all got out money!
you heard about that?

  

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AFRICAN
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Sat Feb-25-06 11:27 AM

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41. "I would like to assure the Congolese people"
In response to Reply # 26


  

          

that if any such money/gold/diamonds existed we would have stolen that shit a long time ago,safebox be damned.
Seriously though,I think we've been thru 8 goverments since the 60's,each one took it's fair share of public money,and you mean to tell me they would leave that much lying around?
Honestly though,that's the first time I heard that story.
But if you do get any leads,i'll break in and we can split the money,50/50.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
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Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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unfukwitable
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Mon Feb-27-06 11:13 AM

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100. "I can help y'all access the gold for a (relatively) small fee"
In response to Reply # 41


  

          

Temi D.Nigerian

  

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AFRICAN
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113. " * wires bank account # *"
In response to Reply # 100


  

          

.

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truth0ne SGC
Member since Sep 25th 2003
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Sat Feb-25-06 09:38 AM

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27. "How willing are people to take those steps, though?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

And would/could it spread beyond certain groups of people?
Say Group A takes it and runs with it, but Group B is opposed to it?
What's stopping civil unrest from popping off?

  

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AFRICAN
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43. "Not at all"
In response to Reply # 27


  

          

Reforms hurt your popularity.
That's why pre-election promises never go thru.
This would have to be done by force.
And force would subdue group B,C and whoever else would stand in it's way.
The end justifies the means.

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akon
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Sat Feb-25-06 10:29 AM

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30. "jail every politician..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          



you forgot to clean their bank accounts, sell off all their belongings
and that of their relatives, (i think their relatives should be jailed too.. actually anyone who benefited from said politicians status too).


>-Education.Free schooling,raise the quality of textbooks,get
>children and parents involved in after school activities.BY
>FORCE.
parents involvement isn't too much of an issue in africa though. i think parents should only be answerable of their kids aren't doing homework and shit, otherwise.. the teachers for the most part try hard and we gotta define our own education system. this shit about just emulating what was there before, blindly is not working. education should be relevant to the culture its being implemented at. of course im not talking the basics that ensure success in this world. but that extra something that would make us appreciate what we have and not want to blindly ape what is not wholly ours...

>
>-Health.Close down private clinics and hospitals and focus on
>basic healthcare and PREVENTION.Shit is not that complicated.

i wouldn't necessarily close down hospitals. i would put greater focus on prevention, i would make healthcare a basic right... some of those herbal remedies do work... how about modern and traditional medicine side by side? and that hiv/ shit.. it cant be that hard to put together a program that works.

>
>-Development.Stop warring with everyone and get those
soldiers
>rehabilitating the rural
>areas.Infrastructure.Infrastructure.Infrastructure.

yes, get those guns out of those lazy soldiers hands andput some farming implements in their hands. shit i think they should be educated, too.


>
>Regulate business.REGULATE BUSINESS.

>
>Crack down on corruption.

amen!! any corrupt person should be publicly whipped and forced to work until theyy make up for that monney they stole. so if you stole XXX millions, sorry dunny... you got 5 years to make that amount of money. a double investment. you steal XXX you give back XXXXXX
>
>Raise the standard of living.
>
>Make use of your countrymen roaming the fucking globe,giving
>their resources,intelligence and expertise to others-and not
>by choice either,they gotta eat-.
ohmigod this would be me. i think anyone that studies abroad should in some way have to go back and work for a number of years in their home country. lets see what that good edumacation has taught you. put it into practice in your village.

>
>Lay down the law for NGO's if they want to work.Specific
>targets that have to be met with a time frame.
>
>No political activity for 5 years.Death sentence if you do-and
>yes a lot of folks will buck it,gotta die-.


wwwwooooowwww.. i think political activity is important. the right kind. dictator x should ensure that everyone is politically aware of their rights and the responsibilities of politicians. most africans vote by tribe because they dont understand the issues. villagers should be made aware that when their boy makes it in the political scene they deserve to see certain levels of development. and they should be able to go to politician x with their demands and complaints and shit. some sorta accountability.... and the checks and balances should rest with the community. shit politicians should live amongs those that voted for them. and when i talk live amongst i mean share the same standard of living as well. that way they know exactly what their constituents are going through. none of that driving benzes when mwananchi is walking or riding a bike, or thinks a mkokoteni is a fine means of transportation.
>
>Jail every ex-politician for 5 years-all those over the age of
>30-.
i so whole heartedly agree. shit i can come up with a list of kenyan politicians that should be doing hard time!

>
>Ban all political parties-esp on Univeristy campuses-.5
>years.


i dont know about this one. i feel that universities are institutions that can implement change... social and political. we just gotta get them on the right page.
>
>This is all very glib and simplified,but you get my drift.
>
>After these 5 years are over,hold elections-which the junta
>will not participate in- and hand over to the elected
>goverment.After putting into effect a very clear
>constitution.
>
>The catch of course,is that I know no one-myself included- I'd
>trust with that kind of power.
>But if I did,I'd throw myself behind them 100 %.
>
>Attack this position if you will.
>

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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AFRICAN
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Sat Feb-25-06 11:41 AM

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46. "Indeed"
In response to Reply # 30


  

          


>you forgot to clean their bank accounts, sell off all their
>belongings
>and that of their relatives, (i think their relatives should
>be jailed too.. actually anyone who benefited from said
>politicians status too).


YES.

>parents involvement isn't too much of an issue in africa
>though. i think parents should only be answerable of their
>kids aren't doing homework and shit, otherwise.. the teachers
>for the most part try hard and we gotta define our own
>education system. this shit about just emulating what was
>there before, blindly is not working. education should be
>relevant to the culture its being implemented at. of course
>im not talking the basics that ensure success in this world.
>but that extra something that would make us appreciate what we
>have and not want to blindly ape what is not wholly ours...

>Imo it is.I feel parents have a detached view of education here.I don't mean coddling these youngesters,but parents need to understand what their kids are learning and provide input.Extracurricular activies with parents build a sense of community and foster better relation between parents and teachers.A couple of months ago ,I was priviliged to hear Ali Mazrui,speak on this very subject.I wish I recorded it.The man broke it down.ESP.your point about the cultural relevance of education.

>i wouldn't necessarily close down hospitals. i would put
>greater focus on prevention, i would make healthcare a basic
>right... some of those herbal remedies do work... how about
>modern and traditional medicine side by side? and that hiv/
>shit.. it cant be that hard to put together a program that
>works.
>I don't want to go off on a tangent,but I think private hospitals have seriously speeded up the decline of public health care.
I agree 100 % on beneifitting from traditonal medicine.I haven't been to a doctor in almost 7/8 years.I jsut ask my Grandma for some herbs and handle it myself.

>yes, get those guns out of those lazy soldiers hands andput
>some farming implements in their hands. shit i think they
>should be educated, too.
>
Agreed.
.
>
>amen!! any corrupt person should be publicly whipped and
>forced to work until theyy make up for that monney they stole.
> so if you stole XXX millions, sorry dunny... you got 5 years
>to make that amount of money. a double investment. you steal
>XXX you give back XXXXXX
>>
Agreed.

>ohmigod this would be me. i think anyone that studies abroad
>should in some way have to go back and work for a number of
>years in their home country. lets see what that good
>edumacation has taught you. put it into practice in your
>village.
>No doubt.But you have to provide the right enviroment for their skills/knowledge to be utilized fully.

>wwwwooooowwww.. i think political activity is important. the
>right kind. dictator x should ensure that everyone is
>politically aware of their rights and the responsibilities of
>politicians. most africans vote by tribe because they dont
>understand the issues. villagers should be made aware that
>when their boy makes it in the political scene they deserve to
>see certain levels of development. and they should be able to
>go to politician x with their demands and complaints and shit.
> some sorta accountability.... and the checks and balances
>should rest with the community. shit politicians should live
>amongs those that voted for them. and when i talk live
>amongst i mean share the same standard of living as well.
>that way they know exactly what their constituents are going
>through. none of that driving benzes when mwananchi is
>walking or riding a bike, or thinks a mkokoteni is a fine
>means of transportation.
>>
I disagree.Realistically,this will never happen.What motivation does the benz driver have to give his ride up?You need to grab your rights.

>i so whole heartedly agree. shit i can come up with a list of
>kenyan politicians that should be doing hard time!
>lol.

>i dont know about this one. i feel that universities are
>institutions that can implement change... social and
>political. we just gotta get them on the right page.
>>
Speaking specifically on Sudan,Universities have always been a hot bed of political activity and an intellectual reflection of the streets.On the other hand,political parties from the whole spectrum have used students to their own ends,and students end up expressing either dissatisfaction or pleasure wit the ruling party,very little substance.Plus it disrupts studies.My school was closed 4 times this academic year.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
instagram:@3rdworldview
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samsara
Member since Sep 15th 2002
3464 posts
Sat Feb-25-06 10:39 AM

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32. "corruption"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

semantics... i think if you replace the term "dedicated junta" with "anti-corruption committee" you are on to something lol

i'm wondering whether or not most of the things you listed should follow cleaning up corruption automatically.

i read in a recent transparency international newsletter about this visa program that the US has started. basically they are straight cancelling folks visas to travel to the states if they have any links to corruption in foreign countries. it's mostly affecting people from latin american countries. ignoring the fact that this examples is pretty hypocritical, anti-corruption programs that don't allow the big benefactors to jet with the cash within africa or off the continent need to happen.

on the smaller level, i think every one of your points is affected once corruption is under control, especially brain drain. and if india is any example, the situation is definitely not hopeless.

what i'd add to the list:

repatriation programs for people seeking asylum - too many people wasting prime years of their lives in detention centers worldwide

simple naturalization/citizenship laws

"i fear no fate" e.e. cummings
"No girl. No fried chicken. I'm going back to get some sleep." - Haruki Murakami

  

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AFRICAN
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49. "See"
In response to Reply # 32


  

          

>semantics... i think if you replace the term "dedicated
>junta" with "anti-corruption committee" you are on to
>something lol
My problem with this,is that any commitee would not have enough power to enforce any decsions.No gov. in it's right mind would allow something of the kind.
Also,not all our problems are due to corruption.A lot of money is spent on useless projects,or just lies dormant due to lack of agreement on what it should be spent on.We need a clear agenda.
Hence, my junta.
>
>i'm wondering whether or not most of the things you listed
>should follow cleaning up corruption automatically.
>
Honestly,I doubt it.See above.

>i read in a recent transparency international newsletter about
>this visa program that the US has started. basically they are
>straight cancelling folks visas to travel to the states if
>they have any links to corruption in foreign countries. it's
>mostly affecting people from latin american countries.
>ignoring the fact that this examples is pretty hypocritical,
>anti-corruption programs that don't allow the big benefactors
>to jet with the cash within africa or off the continent need
>to happen.
Like almost all American initiatves,it's sounds nice in theory,but realistically useless,who deposits money in the US anyway?
But it could be modified.
>on the smaller level, i think every one of your points is
>affected once corruption is under control, especially brain
>drain. and if india is any example, the situation is
>definitely not hopeless.
>But look at the income gap in India.A very high price for development.
>what i'd add to the list:
>
>repatriation programs for people seeking asylum - too many
>people wasting prime years of their lives in detention centers
>worldwide
>
Agreed 100%
>simple naturalization/citizenship laws
Also agreed.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
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samsara
Member since Sep 15th 2002
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Sun Feb-26-06 02:54 AM

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64. "note on visa program"
In response to Reply # 49


  

          

>>semantics... i think if you replace the term "dedicated
>>junta" with "anti-corruption committee" you are on to
>>something lol
>My problem with this,is that any commitee would not have
>enough power to enforce any decsions.No gov. in it's right
>mind would allow something of the kind.
>Also,not all our problems are due to corruption.A lot of money
>is spent on useless projects,or just lies dormant due to lack
>of agreement on what it should be spent on.We need a clear
>agenda.
>Hence, my junta.

oh i really just meant replace the name for better international relations lol. anti-corruption transitional infrastructure development government. to me useless projects/dormant funds is still corruption. somebody is getting the contract for a useless project and someone is getting the interest on dormant funds.

what i found interesting about the visa program is that it is supposedly having an affect on latin american countries but of course not in terms of secret bank accounts. travel, real estate investments, children's education etc. in the states are all put in jeopardy. supposedly most of the people who have been affected are not interested in going to the media and give up info on other corrupt folks to get their travel rights back. this includes family members as well. the US govt. gives out no information unless the people involved have revealed themselves. the one person who did go to the media had just bought some millions of dollars estate in florida and got assed out.

anyway the point was that there are definitely intra-country agreements to be made to stamp out corruption. that visa program is really just aimed at latin america.

and for india, i wouldn't really compare the overall situation because corruption is still a main concern there. it's not just development keeping the gap between classes in tact. i'm still fascinated with the reverse brain drain situation there. one article on india i read talked about hospitals extorting money from poor people at childbirth, basically paying everyone from the attendant to the doctor to be able to get to see the child. getting rid of corruption on low levels has got be a part of raising standards of living imo.

"i fear no fate" e.e. cummings
"No girl. No fried chicken. I'm going back to get some sleep." - Haruki Murakami

  

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AFRICAN
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Sun Feb-26-06 05:18 AM

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66. "You just hipped me to a majjor problem"
In response to Reply # 64


  

          


>oh i really just meant replace the name for better
>international relations lol.
The international community will def. not let this happen and watch idly.

anti-corruption transitional
>infrastructure development government. to me useless
>projects/dormant funds is still corruption. somebody is
>getting the contract for a useless project and someone is
>getting the interest on dormant funds.
>
True.

>what i found interesting about the visa program is that it is
>supposedly having an affect on latin american countries but of
>course not in terms of secret bank accounts. travel, real
>estate investments, children's education etc. in the states
>are all put in jeopardy. supposedly most of the people who
>have been affected are not interested in going to the media
>and give up info on other corrupt folks to get their travel
>rights back. this includes family members as well. the US
>govt. gives out no information unless the people involved have
>revealed themselves. the one person who did go to the media
>had just bought some millions of dollars estate in florida and
>got assed out.
>
>anyway the point was that there are definitely intra-country
>agreements to be made to stamp out corruption. that visa
>program is really just aimed at latin america.
>
I agree.Without international cooperation any attempts to stamp out corruption are futile,it goes hand in hand with money laundering and international banks.

>and for india, i wouldn't really compare the overall situation
>because corruption is still a main concern there. it's not
>just development keeping the gap between classes in tact. i'm
>still fascinated with the reverse brain drain situation there.
>one article on india i read talked about hospitals extorting
>money from poor people at childbirth, basically paying
>everyone from the attendant to the doctor to be able to get to
>see the child. getting rid of corruption on low levels has got
>be a part of raising standards of living imo.

I respect the Indian experience,people who were expats brought back their capital and expertise and kick started a lot of cutting edge industries.Kudos for that.But their socio-economic situation is worrying,so worrying I wouldn't even use it as an example.Their has to be some kind of middle ground.Maybe we should be selective with the models for development that we choose.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
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Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Sat Feb-25-06 10:49 AM

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35. "i was gonna make a post about why coups don't happen in the West"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

but i decided against it.

a totalitarian regime is not the answer tho.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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AFRICAN
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Sat Feb-25-06 11:51 AM

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50. "You really should"
In response to Reply # 35


  

          

Bongo and bluetiget would stage a coup in your post though.
A question for you though.
Why not a dicatorship for a specified period?
Espeacially in Africa.

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Sun Feb-26-06 10:00 PM

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75. "when has a dictatorship ever worked?"
In response to Reply # 50


  

          

esp ones with as harsh a guideline as yours?

it's just not plausible.

also, it neglects the intricacies that are specific to specific nations, regions, locations on the continent.

it's so not thorough.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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akon
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Sun Feb-26-06 10:05 PM

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76. "HueyS... wont you just let us be idealistic for once..."
In response to Reply # 75


  

          

shit, mayne...
we caint have nothin??


>esp ones with as harsh a guideline as yours?
>
>it's just not plausible.
>
>also, it neglects the intricacies that are specific to
>specific nations, regions, locations on the continent.
>
>it's so not thorough.

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Mon Feb-27-06 11:10 AM

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99. "your idealism is colonized."
In response to Reply # 76


  

          

lol

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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akon
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Mon Feb-27-06 01:50 PM

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106. "actually, no its not."
In response to Reply # 99


  

          

There were totalitarian rulers in pre-colonial africa as well… for those nations that established a more centralised form of government (instead of the localised one we are used to associating with African communities). Its how old Benin, the Shongay empire, Old Ghana, the Kabaka’s in Uganda, Dahomey, the Ashanti, The Shona, the Nuba, and the best example: the Egyptians. These were powerful kingdoms with powerful rulers. A good example of a kingdom that did not succeed because of a weak ruler was the Baganda kingdom when Mutesa II took over (I choose him cause he was the one the European’s accused of sleeing with young boys. If its true… he might be the earliest ‘documented’ case of homosexuality that I’ve read about in Africa). see the trend? weak ruler-- weak kingdom/// today- weak politicans- failed nation states..

But you can’t tell me that the idea of a totalitarian ruler is colonised when pre-colonial Africa is rife with examples of leaders that were in fact totalitarian. and kingdoms that were successful despite of this. im not saying there didn't exist kings that exploited their people... but for the most part... there were kingdoms with kings that had the kind of success AFRICAN and i are dreaming about.

Unless your prime focus is on the decentralised form of govt that ‘most’ African communities had in place, where the chief was more of a symbolic leader and decision making was left in the hands of the elders? And where even the chief and elders were no different (in terms of living stds etc) from the populace? And it was known that the elders were mere representatives of the community at large? I think this is where we want to get at.

But we are not going to get there when at the moment a seat in parliament is seen as a the fastest way to gain wealth and power or to exploit people. That mentality (which is a very colonised mindset) is what needs to be gotten rid of. I doubt its gonna happen by mollycoddling. Not when corruption is so entrenched.

I doubt most of y’all understand just how much corruption is ingrained in Africa today. it's gonna take more than a slogun or an anti-corruption committee to get rid of this.

personally... im signing AFRICAN's petition.

*jail these damn politicans...
they can be the sacrifical lamb.

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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AFRICAN
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Mon Feb-27-06 12:40 AM

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83. "A lot."
In response to Reply # 75


  

          

Starting from most ancient civilizations up until the gulf emirates.
As far as cultural nuances and considerations to specific countries,I don't really see that as a major issue.
I know this is not airtight,but I'm not exactly writing a handbook on revoloution,just suggesting that might can be right in certain situations,specifically ours.

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
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Mon Feb-27-06 11:10 AM

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98. "i guess it depends on how "work" is defined, right?"
In response to Reply # 83


  

          

>Starting from most ancient civilizations up until the gulf
>emirates.

^^^ these still exist? oh.

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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AFRICAN
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103. "I guess so"
In response to Reply # 98


  

          

If it can satisfy the basic essentials on the agenda,I'd consider it a success.
Yea,those little emirates are about to run your ports.

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SubUrb
Member since Apr 22nd 2005
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Sat Feb-25-06 10:49 AM

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36. "so i take it you're a Chavez fan?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

+++++
life in the upbeat:
http://blog.myspace.com/suburbproduce

  

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AFRICAN
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51. "A little too flamboyant for my tastes"
In response to Reply # 36


  

          

ie;too much style/flair,not enough substance.
But I do agree with a lot of his decisions.
And that wasn't really a good eg.Chavez was elected 'democratically' although dubya and them don't really acknowledge that.

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Olu
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37. "its been tried before"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

either the dictator gets corrupted by power or someone takes them out before they are done.

plus closing private hospitols is just going to add to the number of African doctors and nurses working in developed countries.

and democracy is slowly taking root in some places. I remain optimistic

http://www.last.fm/user/Olu/
http://ghanageek.wordpress.com/

  

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Abdurrashid
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Sat Feb-25-06 11:16 AM

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38. "So do I man....I remain Optimistic too.."
In response to Reply # 37


  

          


"The camel never sees its own hump but that of its brothers is always before its eyes"- N.African proverb

***The OKMuhajideen***

  

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Olu
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42. "it helps that Ghana is doing relatively well these days"
In response to Reply # 38


  

          

http://www.last.fm/user/Olu/
http://ghanageek.wordpress.com/

  

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Abdurrashid
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44. "yea , my with Ghana is the gov't needs to privatise the businesses there"
In response to Reply # 42


  

          


"The camel never sees its own hump but that of its brothers is always before its eyes"- N.African proverb

***The OKMuhajideen***

  

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Abdurrashid
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45. "example Ghana airlines...the govt barely pays their bills when landing i..."
In response to Reply # 44


  

          

US....not a good look...I don't even want to talk about flight delays....


"The camel never sees its own hump but that of its brothers is always before its eyes"- N.African proverb

***The OKMuhajideen***

  

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Olu
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48. "The issue there is corruption"
In response to Reply # 45


  

          

I have an uncle who was kicked off the Ghana Airways board because he started demanding more accountability and efficiency.

The thing is, when we privatize we end up selling off pieces of the country to foreign companies which doesn't help us much

http://www.last.fm/user/Olu/
http://ghanageek.wordpress.com/

  

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Abdurrashid
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55. "I had a friend who a big manager for the company..and was flying over"
In response to Reply # 48


  

          


"owning" white folx....the Ghananians loved that brotha because he would smart of the mouth with the Europeans (in a intelligent way...tactful)...he was in with the government there too...but in the end..Ghana Air screwed him...lol!

I agree with the corruption...he was also telling me the work standards aren't the same as well...as far efficiency...and not paying the employees there too much money....cause if that happens they wouldn't come back to work....sadly..

"The camel never sees its own hump but that of its brothers is always before its eyes"- N.African proverb

***The OKMuhajideen***

  

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AFRICAN
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52. "They needed more power/force"
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

Being corrupted by power is my weak link.-I'm drinking something tonite and I'll come up with something in the morning.

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Warp and Woof
Member since Dec 05th 2002
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47. "placing the needs of the state above the freedom of the individual"
In response to Reply # 0


          

As far as I know, it's a recipe for tragedy. Even though the ideals & intentions might be good, the totalitarian system itself is destructive to all parties I think.

You're talking about a five year period, but getting a country up and running takes so much more time.
Suppose that after five years, the regime decides that not all agenda points have been met, the country isn't healthy enough to stand on it's own legs yet. What do they do? Another five year period? Who says that'll be enough? Still I doubt the regime will be willing to give up their power, since their job isn't done yet.
Nobody can tell how long it will take, and in the meanwhile, the people's rights remain suspended. What to do about people protesting it? They're basically protesting against the regime's ideals, and will therefore be detrimental to the development of the ideal state. You basically have no choice but to lock them up.
In the end it will be no better than the many dictatorships with their 'evil' ideals.

And those are just a few random complications to consider. I feel it's just the tip of the iceberg.

If you are right about Africans not being ready for democracy (which I think is an unnecessary generalization), I think only time will improve that, provided that more attention goes to education and economic independance. In which the western world should play an active role, by the way, although that's a whole new discussion in itself.


I'm #ffffff

  

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AFRICAN
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53. "I'll come back to this in the morning"
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

I have an evening of sinning ahead of me.

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AFRICAN
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59. "The state consists of individuals"
In response to Reply # 47


  

          

and it's purpose is to serve these individuals-supposedly-.

>As far as I know, it's a recipe for tragedy. Even though the
>ideals & intentions might be good, the totalitarian system
>itself is destructive to all parties I think.
>This is debatable.What makes people happy?It's almost impossible to please everyone.You need to satisfy peoples basic needs.Freedom does not feed hungry mouths.Freedom does not build school,hospitals and roads.
I am not arguing stripping people of their right to be individuals or take away all their freedoms.
My argument,is that in order to lift these society's to the materialistic level of their western counterparts,certain reforms,changes or whatever you may call them need to be made.In a democratic instituition,they are most likely to be sidetracked by other issues/politics.
To fully focus on the fundamentals, they need free reign-relatively-.

>You're talking about a five year period, but getting a country
>up and running takes so much more time.
>Suppose that after five years, the regime decides that not all
>agenda points have been met, the country isn't healthy enough
>to stand on it's own legs yet. What do they do? Another five
>year period? Who says that'll be enough? Still I doubt the
>regime will be willing to give up their power, since their job
>isn't done yet.
>Nobody can tell how long it will take, and in the meanwhile,
>the people's rights remain suspended. What to do about people
>protesting it? They're basically protesting against the
>regime's ideals, and will therefore be detrimental to the
>development of the ideal state. You basically have no choice
>but to lock them up.

You make a good point.Obviously some safety valves need to be installed-which is a very wide side issue-.
In theory,if their agenda is correct and they have enough power to support it,then it can be done.

I don't beleive in an ideal state or utopia of any sort.This regime is not in power to try and build one.It's in power to lift this society onto an equal playing field with other nations.It's in power to solve very basic,yet chronic ailments in the economy,education,health care system and other basic functions of the state.

>In the end it will be no better than the many dictatorships
>with their 'evil' ideals.
>
>And those are just a few random complications to consider. I
>feel it's just the tip of the iceberg.
>
I understand your qualms about asoloute power.I'll speak on that in a minute.

>If you are right about Africans not being ready for democracy
>(which I think is an unnecessary generalization), I think only
>time will improve that, provided that more attention goes to
>education and economic independance. In which the western
>world should play an active role, by the way, although that's
>a whole new discussion in itself.
I don't think Africans are not ready for democracy in that sense,but in the sense that we will not be allowed to enact it for a variety of reasons which I named throughout this post.
You can't feed a baby steak.
Talk about democracy is redundant if people don't have their basic neccesacities.
After these have been satisfied,we can move on to other issues and let the people decide for themselves.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
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dopestethiopian
Member since Oct 21st 2004
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54. "while i can see your logic in theory"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i still have mixed emotions on this, but i think this is very important:

>Make use of your countrymen roaming the fucking globe,giving their resources,intelligence and expertise to others-and not by choice either,they gotta eat-.

we need a middle class.

-----
ctrl+alt+del

  

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AFRICAN
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60. "We do need a wider middle class"
In response to Reply # 54


  

          

-my personal beleif is that class divisions are widely subjective-.
And a lot of third world knowledge/expertise is being used abroad.It's a waste of resources.

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Galvatron
Member since Aug 12th 2005
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56. "Niggas need to read up on the Great Leap Forward"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Cause this 5 year plan shit under a totalitarian regime doesn't work. Unless you saying niggas is better than chinks in general.

Niggas steady talking about form of government, what every country needs is a large and strong middle class. That shit stabilizes everything.

When niggas is pacified with ipods and fastfood, then democracy works.

  

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AFRICAN
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61. "Step up my yout'"
In response to Reply # 56


  

          

Ipods and cheese burgers do not a democracy make.
I'm not even stuck on democracy like that.
Food,clothing and shelter-to break it down to it's simplest form-.
This is a complex issue.

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IsaIsaIsa
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Sat Feb-25-06 01:07 PM

58. "shariah is a better idea, hanafi influenced 1 tho."
In response to Reply # 0


          


www.myspace.com/itsjay

...yeah girl

  

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AFRICAN
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62. "You know what though?"
In response to Reply # 58


  

          

Even in Sharia,if someone steals out of hunger,they cannot be punished and in fact the Khalifa is accountable for their actions.Correct?
This is not about idealogy.This is about feeding the babies.
I know you can do better than that.

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AFRICAN
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63. "Absoloute power corrupts."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

But without power,basic needs cannot be made.
So the issue is something to balance that power out.
Not the use of power itself.
No real way around it.
Either the people running it are dedicated or not.
Which is why I said I have yet to meet someone I know,who I trust with that much power.
But I still feel this model can be applied.

Where's Bongo?

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IsaIsaIsa
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Fri Mar-03-06 12:21 AM

119. "en congo ahk."
In response to Reply # 63


          


www.myspace.com/itsjay

...yeah girl

  

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normal35762
Member since Oct 20th 2004
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Sun Feb-26-06 04:23 AM

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65. "When you say "Jail every ex-politician for 5 years......""
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

When you say "Jail every ex-politician for 5 years-all those over the age of 30-." You mean EVERY one? Why every one? What if they were good?

  

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AFRICAN
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67. "Precautionary measures"
In response to Reply # 65
Sun Feb-26-06 05:22 AM by AFRICAN

  

          

and yes every single one.
EVERY SINGLE ONE.
Even the good ones-snicker-.
I'd hook them up in a nice ass jail,give them books,movies and a boxing ring.
Let loose the sonsabitches would do everything they could to block the movement,just on principle.
5 years is not too long.
And no visits.
------
After edit
------

After the five years they could come out and commence any political action/party they choose.

And if the interim Junta did a good job, they will have a hard ass time getting elected just on tribalism and slogans.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
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akon
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72. "sustained...."
In response to Reply # 67


  

          

personally i'd jail them for life.
them sonsabitches would spend that five years trying to plot a comeback.
cant teach an old dog new tricks so whip him till he forgets even the old ones, y'know?
and by the way, AFRICAN i got mad respect for you...
but you are being too lenient here, bwana.
movies, books and sports activities?

when these mofos send people to jail you think they are that considerate?
nah, man! make them work for their foodshelterclothing.
i'd like to see these former benzriders with hoes, jembes and pangas working the ground.


>and yes every single one.
>EVERY SINGLE ONE.
>Even the good ones-snicker-.
>I'd hook them up in a nice ass jail,give them books,movies and
>a boxing ring.
>Let loose the sonsabitches would do everything they could to
>block the movement,just on principle.
>5 years is not too long.
>And no visits.
>------
>After edit
>------
>
>After the five years they could come out and commence any
>political action/party they choose.
>
>And if the interim Junta did a good job, they will have a hard
>ass time getting elected just on tribalism and slogans.

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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AFRICAN
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84. "Lol"
In response to Reply # 72


  

          

mayne I'm not trying to have these politician's families and supporters go ballistic on me.
And with this kind of thing,please beleive all manners of human rights organisations will step up and harrass the goverment.
We can also introduce them to Ethics 101 and introduction to civil debates while they are incarcerated.

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Black Jesus
Member since Mar 01st 2005
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Sun Feb-26-06 05:25 AM

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68. "You all need to stop the bullshit."
In response to Reply # 0


          

And start one big federation. One big African Parliament, one African Prime Minister, one African President. Make the federation as central as you like, but do it, because it's the scale at which countries succeed nowadays. You got China at 1.3 billion, India at 1.1 billion, Europe at 450 million, the USA at 300 million. Africa would drop right in at 700 million, and you could pool resources to build infrastructure, education, and health. It's what makes sense, but since the political elite on the continent is so thoroughly corrupt and outward-looking, it is something that's never going to happen, and much to the detriment of the people on the continent.

  

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AFRICAN
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69. "Never gonna happen"
In response to Reply # 68


  

          

ever,EVER.
If we can get an economic community going on-along the lines of COMESSA/EU-,I will be a surprised and happy man.
The African Summit a month ago was a joke.
I'm all for Pan African sentiment and action,but realistically at the moment,every one for dolo.
And it's not just about the corrupt elite.Even the majority of regular folks would not be down for something that drastic.And won't be for some time.
If we could stopp warring/meddling with neighbours that's a huge step forward.

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Olu
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80. "Basically"
In response to Reply # 69


  

          

the closest we ever came was ECOWAS. And they've been bickering for damn near the last decade on standardizing transportation infrastructure and creating a common currency

http://www.last.fm/user/Olu/
http://ghanageek.wordpress.com/

  

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AFRICAN
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85. "What's the status on the currency unification?"
In response to Reply # 80


  

          

That would difficult to pull off,esp. with our fluctuating economies and such.

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Olu
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166. "the plan was sort of an overlaying currency"
In response to Reply # 85


  

          

where each country would keep its own currency and there would be a common currency run out of a central bank. Mostly to simplify trade between the countries.

From what I understand the ex french colonies were the biggest problem because france still controls the CFA. I haven't heard anything new in almost 3 years

http://www.last.fm/user/Olu/
http://ghanageek.wordpress.com/

  

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savir
Member since Oct 01st 2003
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Sun Feb-26-06 07:24 AM

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70. "FIRST, GET RID OF ALL THE OUTSIDERS!"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

They are the main ones causing all the problems in most of the Afrikan nations. Once the outsiders influence is cut out then i would say that a Socialist Government would be a better choice.


@ONE

  

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akon
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74. "the man said..."
In response to Reply # 70


  

          

go idiamin (without the syphilis madness) on them.
that's exactly what he meant.

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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AFRICAN
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86. "Indeed"
In response to Reply # 74


  

          

We can some form of financial retribution and send them packing-and brace for the international outrage-.

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Riot
Member since May 25th 2005
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Sun Feb-26-06 09:40 PM

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71. "hm. doesnt s. africa disprove this theory? or r they exception to the ru..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          



)))--####---###--(((

bunda
<-.-> ^_^ \^0^/
get busy living, or get busy dying.

  

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akon
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73. "no exceptions to no rules.."
In response to Reply # 71
Sun Feb-26-06 09:52 PM by akon

  

          

we need a new breed.

we are tired of the same old bullshit.
s.a has the highest crime rate in africa for a reason.
natives still living on reserves? *smh

nah, we gon jail them too.
but we'll give mwalimu nelson mandela a nice crib. he's already did his hard time thanks to those mofunking afrikaners..

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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AFRICAN
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89. "S.Africa is exactly why this is needed"
In response to Reply # 71


  

          

The ANC gained control of the political playing field-on the surface-,without having much control on the economy.
Which is understandable,given that there would have been no elections if they would have demanded control of resources and some type of reparations.
So while S.Africans run their country in theory,it's being pushed by forces beyond their control-overwhelming poverty -.
If Thabo Mbeki were to make a list of urgent issues and push them through forcibly,please beleive he would be stopped,even from inside his party.
This isn't to say a democracy is not feasible,but we have priorities.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
instagram:@3rdworldview
Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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Riot
Member since May 25th 2005
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117. "complex issues..."
In response to Reply # 89


  

          

2 which i can only play the role of living witness



)))--####---###--(((

bunda
<-.-> ^_^ \^0^/
get busy living, or get busy dying.

  

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normal35762
Member since Oct 20th 2004
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79. "What if this dictator/savior was a female?"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Like a real strict ass mother puttin errybody on punishment.

  

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truth0ne SGC
Member since Sep 25th 2003
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Mon Feb-27-06 12:22 AM

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81. "*inhale*"
In response to Reply # 79


  

          

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


You're talking about THE MOST proud, stubborn, chest-puffing dudes on the planet bowing down to a woman?

Let's work on one miracle at a time, yo.

  

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Olu
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82. "see: Sierra Leone"
In response to Reply # 81


  

          

http://www.last.fm/user/Olu/
http://ghanageek.wordpress.com/

  

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AFRICAN
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91. "Ha"
In response to Reply # 79


  

          

I don't see why not-sans the strict momma thing-.
And it won't be a one man/woman show,a group of folks from a range of different backgrounds,fields etc.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
instagram:@3rdworldview
Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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Zorasmoon
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87. "wow. how ironic that you're hoping for an increase in the very"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

activities that make things fucked up as it is.

more amazing is that people are co-signing
this bullshit.

i don't wish anything on anyone I myself
wouldn't desire to endure.




http://www.43things.com/person/kimluv

  

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Zorasmoon
Member since Aug 30th 2002
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88. "p.s. recommended reading for you:"
In response to Reply # 87


  

          

Bad Elements: Chinese Rebels from Los Angeles to Beijing (Vintage) (Paperback)
by Ian Buruma

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679781366/sr=8-1/qid=1141019225/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-7506525-2671822?%5Fencoding=UTF8

>>>No political activity for 5 years.Death sentence if you do-and yes a lot of folks will buck it,gotta die-.

Jail every ex-politician for 5 years-all those over the age of 30-.
<<<




http://www.43things.com/person/kimluv

  

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AFRICAN
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92. "I'll check for that"
In response to Reply # 88


  

          

when I get the chance.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
instagram:@3rdworldview
Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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speaker
Member since Mar 31st 2004
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Mon Feb-27-06 01:15 AM

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95. "That book looks really interesting"
In response to Reply # 88


  

          

I'm going to have to read that.

  

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AFRICAN
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90. "How would it make things more fucked up?"
In response to Reply # 87


  

          

As a matter of fact,can you point out one democracy in Africa that is doing a a good job with a shelf life of more than a year?
I'm not calling for a brave new world type society,just a goverment which takes over forcibly and ensures that certain basic functions of the state are enforced.
It sounds more draconian than it really is.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
instagram:@3rdworldview
Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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Zorasmoon
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94. "nah, what you 're calling for is *exactly* that...."
In response to Reply # 90


  

          

>>a brave new world type society<<<

achieving true Democracy by force and dictatorship?
In this modern, well-connected globalized world?

Even "westernized" nations employing those practices
are reaching their boiling points.

I only know of one nation that has done what
you're outlining "well" and thats Singapore.
gosh, but they're what? 4 million tops?

Africa, 800 million +, 50+ countries, this massive contintent, recently (on the surface) de-colonized...has a long way to go!

I resent anyone implying that they, like other semi-stable
nations won't be able to find their way via the organic process.

Managing people is not as simple as you've outlined. Yes, there will
be more coups, wars and senseless deaths....until the people are tired and there is no place to go but up.

I'm sure of one thing, African nations WILL find
their way. WE are impatient because we're used to 5-minute instant solutions.

Like instant oatmeal. Add junta and stir.






http://www.43things.com/person/kimluv

  

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AFRICAN
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96. "Not at all"
In response to Reply # 94


  

          


There is no intent to control peoples lives or guide their behaviour/actions whatsoever.
I'm talking of enforcing education/healthcare and cracking down on corruption.Just a five year focus on the basics to give us a fighting chance in this modern world economy.

>achieving true Democracy by force and dictatorship?
>In this modern, well-connected globalized world?
>
This junta is not out to bring democracy,see above.

>Even "westernized" nations employing those practices
>are reaching their boiling points.
>
>I only know of one nation that has done what
>you're outlining "well" and thats Singapore.
>gosh, but they're what? 4 million tops?
>
This is nation specific,not continent wide.

>Africa, 800 million +, 50+ countries, this massive contintent,
>recently (on the surface) de-colonized...has a long way to
>go!
>
Agreed.
>I resent anyone implying that they, like other semi-stable
>nations won't be able to find their way via the organic
>process.
>
I'm not implying,I'm stating.I'd like to see examples.If we don't focus on the absoloute essentials,all this talk of democracy is irrelevant,correct?

>Managing people is not as simple as you've outlined. Yes,
>there will
>be more coups, wars and senseless deaths....until the people
>are tired and there is no place to go but up.
>
And how long do we wait on this?
And believe me,misery is a bottomless pit.

>I'm sure of one thing, African nations WILL find
>their way. WE are impatient because we're used to 5-minute
>instant solutions.
>
>Like instant oatmeal. Add junta and stir.
Although I disagree,that last part was quite eloquent,just felt like saying that.

Riddle me this though,where has a democracy been established NOT by force?
-The US. check
-France.Check
etc.etc.etc.

I just feel like it boils down to priorities and your surrounding enviroment.
Democracy will not come by people peacefully getting together and choosing the ballot instead of the bullet.
Democracy will come through the barrel of a gun.
Whether by choice or force.
Time is really not on our side.
Take for example Sudan.We are approx. 50 years behind the first world in terms of devlopment and industry,to an extent we do need a five minute soloution,steroids,something.
No one will help us.
How do you suggest we go around catching up?

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
instagram:@3rdworldview
Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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akon
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97. "&gt;&gt;a brave new world type society&lt;&lt;&lt;"
In response to Reply # 94
Mon Feb-27-06 11:07 AM by akon

  

          

achieving true Democracy by force and dictatorship?

All of today’s so called democracies started out from dictatorships. We can look throughout European history - It’s hard to build a strong nation state if the foundation is weak. It’s hard to govern if government itself is weak.

African nations lack a foundation. We have nation states (i'd rather call them failed states) that were crudely mapped out without a sensible formula…..How to impose a sense of solidarity amongst people who view themselves as a certain tribe before a certain nationality? The only way to prevent the kinds of in fighting we see is to have a leader strong enough to quelch all of that before it even starts becoming a problem. the problem today is that these leaders lack any sense of morality. i believe AFRICAN's ideal leader is one with the strength AND that sense of morality lacking in today's african leaders (closest person i can think if is dude in burkina faso that tried- Thomas Sankara. if he'd had more than a year..... )

And the only way to encourage a sense of national solidarity is by having national programs that will benefit people from all regions equally. Having education systems that work… and we are talking the same quality of education even in the rural areas, healthcare for all, a leadership that emphasises the nation and not the tribe… that shit will bring together even a fragmented country. shit look at kenya's past election... 'tribally aligned' parties came together for the purpose of defeating moi. the opposition won on a platform of free health care, education and anti- corruption. this was shit that made sense to kenyans so they voted accordingly (unfortunately..... kibaki deserve's that jail we are talking about) and… even though we scoff at slogans, national symbols, like flags, songs and bladdybla and all that…. They do work in, i feel, reflecting a sense of solidarity.

Shit I gave Tanzania as an example of a country with very few problems of tribalism (religion is a whole nother issue). And much as I respect mwalimu Julius nyerere… let’s face it…. The man was a dictator (in the 'democratic' sense of the word) - with a pretty ambitious dream. I believe if his country had not been isolated (by the then anti-communist west) we’d have had a blue print kinda like what AFRICAN is talking about. Blue print because even his regime made very many mistakes and with hindsight…. We can come up with better solutions.

But lets not come up here acting like democracy was born out of idealism. The basis of damn near every ‘democracy’ was a dictatorships.


>I resent anyone implying that they, like other semi-stable
nations won't be able to find their way via the organic process.

I’d like some examples of nations that were born out of this so called organic state /process. Because to me its all classic political science theory. (who coined that term anyway? Last I heard his theory was torn to threads… its not as simple. im gonna remember his name and come back.)

>Managing people is not as simple as you've outlined. Yes, there will
be more coups, wars and senseless deaths....until the people are tired and there is no place to go but up.

Again, historically… weak states/nations/ leaders = wars, coups, senseless deaths. It’s only when a country has a strong leader….. and especially a leader that ‘seemingly’ benefits his populace is when we have periods of stability, peace, economic success or whatever else you want to call it. I don’t know what country has succeeded with a weak leader.. maybe it’s a Machiavellian way of looking at it…. But it makes sense.


.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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les_fleurs
Member since Aug 23rd 2003
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Mon Feb-27-06 11:18 AM

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101. "^ and there it is!"
In response to Reply # 97


          

  

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AFRICAN
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104. "You nailed it"
In response to Reply # 97


  

          

Nuff said.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
instagram:@3rdworldview
Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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Zorasmoon
Member since Aug 30th 2002
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114. "Start with South Africa's "Truth and Reconciliation Commission""
In response to Reply # 97


  

          

considered one of the world's most successful MODERN
transitional processes into democracy the world has ever seen.

So successful, that other countries have modeled
themselves after it.

yes, African nations indeed have the capacity to contribute
to the world's collective pool of progressive thought, peace and democractic process for all its flaws.

As I CLEARLY state above, in this MODERN, connected GLOBALIZED world
dictatorship is NOT the viable answer for any nation trying to move forward. Not to mention, dictatorships in African nations could not survive very long via isolation especially if they are wholly dependent upon international trade to support their developing economies (unless of course they dealt solely with the Chinese)

Even if one's country is a puppet government (i.e. Iraq) the preferred default ideal "good standing" of today are the more democratic nations.

Like I've said, millions and countless times--the western
way towards democracy is most likely NOT the way for African nations.

The political theory you tout is simply outdated.

The "organic process" is what is taking place today. African nations
finding UNIQUE solutions to fit their UNIQUE circumstances and diverse cultures and histories. Incorporating what fits, tossing what doesn't.

How ironic that you so smugly and safely behind your screen, liberated to write about your lesbian trysts, DARE to muse over the need for dictatorship and brute force as the wider consensus agrees that continued bloodshed today is highly unecessary and wasteful in the name of order, peace and progress.

How easy to talk about what Africans *should* be doing
when little if any of it *directly* has any affect upon you?

Are you willing to die or be jailed? Hell, are you even at risk?





http://www.43things.com/person/kimluv

  

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akon
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167. "Assumptions, much? Zora?"
In response to Reply # 114
Sat Mar-04-06 06:06 PM by akon

  

          

let's talk about tutu's truth and reconciliation..
there are other opinions/people that felt that it let off (easily) folks that should have probably landed in jail for human's righs abuses. but that's not the point here.

and south africa.... i guess success is relative. because that country has a lot of problems in terms of transfer of wealth to native south africans. if you dig beneath the surface.... very little has changed for most south africans in terms of socio-economic status.
so... maybe its considered the world's most successful... but i wonder, by whose standards?

>considered one of the world's most successful MODERN
>transitional processes into democracy the world has ever
>seen.
>
>As I CLEARLY state above, in this MODERN, connected GLOBALIZED
>world
>dictatorship is NOT the viable answer for any nation trying to
>move forward.

have you read any of AFRICAN's posts? it reads like you havent.
a) democracy is NOT working for africa.
especially now that most of these african countries *are peddling democratically elected legitimate government. i'd give kenya as the best example. kibaki's government. do you know how much aid he has finangled from the world bank ever since he got elected... just on the basis that he *was democratically elected? more public debt. GREAT! museveni's,recently elected one, etc

b) we have that unique problem called tribalism.
i dont see how this problem can be squelched by hand-holding and talking about modernism and globalisation. tribes have always existed, and so has animosity.. the kikuyus have always hated the luo's, the dinkas hate everyone not dinka. But tribalism... which a lot of times is politically instigated (and in saying this im talking about people hacking others with machete’s for whatever reasons). Why is the response from govt always slow? Shit, couple years ago a group of rogues damn hear held a village hostage a whole night in Kenya… the cops were called…. Nothing happened. Every single one of them got off scot free. Now YOU tell me how to deal with something like this except by having a leadership with ZERO tolerance for it.
c) corruption. entrenched in EVERY level of goverment, private and public business, on the streets etc. you cant get shit without giving a little chai. and the cops are even worse. so many times you see money changing hands.... and no one says anything. its almost a part of life.

c) poor infrastructure. poorly managed/ mismanaged resources, crumbling/failing health care, education systems that are mere caricatures of the colonialist's educ. system,
d) public debt…

>>Not to mention, dictatorships in African nations could not survive very long via isolation especially if they are wholly dependent upon international trade to support their developing economies (unless of course they dealt solely with the Chinese)

By the way…dictatorships in Africa have survived…. For long periods I might add. And especially due to support from the very countries you are touting. Dare we mention mobutu? Moi? Unless you are trying to claim these were democracies. The only countries that get isolated are those that try to find their own (unique) solutions to their inherent problems (mwalimu julius nyerere, anyone?).


>Like I've said, millions and countless times--the western
way towards democracy is most likely NOT the way for African nations.

>The political theory you tout is simply outdated.

again.. why is this outdated? Im sure we can come up with examples in today’s contemporary society that disprove this. outdated is relative. Unless you come up with a time-period beyond which ‘outdated’ lies, then you really can’t claim this with a straight face.

>The "organic process" is what is taking place today. African nations
finding UNIQUE solutions to fit their UNIQUE circumstances and diverse cultures and histories. Incorporating what fits, tossing what doesn't.

I thought this is what this post is about? I don’t understand your beef. AFRICAN is talking about the current ‘democracy that exists in Africa, as not working. I doubt you will meet an African that disagrees with this. He’s doing more than just sitting and disagreeing with things…. He’s trying to figure out solutions. It sounds like you read the word dictator and ran with it.. like didn’t even bother reading the rest of the post. Maybe he should have sugar coated it and said a ‘strong’ leader with the people’s interests at heart?


>>How ironic that you so smugly and safely behind your screen, liberated to write about your lesbian trysts, DARE to muse over the need for dictatorship and brute force as the wider consensus agrees that continued bloodshed today is highly unecessary and wasteful in the name of order, peace and progress.


Okay…. I don’t know how my sexuality got into this debate but I guess everytime someone sees the name akon it’s the first thing that springs to mind. I could be writing about water or whatever and I will immediately get put into that box.

Let’s look at what AFRICAN is speaking against.
Education.health. development. Regulate business. Crack down corruption. Raise stds of living. Put checks on the brain drain....etc

The only things I’d say he’s talking about curtailing is political activity. And I believe I *know exactly what kind of political activity he’s talking about- the pedestrian kind that happens day today- read any African paper, ask any African….
I had to re read my post to see where I might have talked about curtailing people’s freedoms, outside of hate speech (which fuels tribalism in every country I know, and which masquerades as ‘politics’).

Im talking about an ideal country in which people share a sense of solidarity, where people benefit from the political process. AFRICAN’s ‘solution’ is to have a five year ‘dictatorship to implement *just those kinds of conditions necessary to ascertain that.
Shit are you trying to imply that I would speak so harshly against tribalism (hatred based on tribal alliances) and not have a problem with a government that supported hatred in any form., including homosexuality? Why would I be unwilling to endure *certain hardships, enforced by a government if I believed that it would guarantee a better standard of living, greater freedoms and the kind of Africa *I dream about? Shit, at least I’d be getting something in return. Instead we are used to suffering with no end in sight. What im cosigning in this post is curtailing the freedoms of tribalists and the kinds of politicans we have driving around in benzes emptying public coffers. and this would stand even if i wasn't a lesbian talking about my trysts.

Zora im really trying to grasp the straws you grasped when you brought in my sexuality, and really? I cant.

And then you come here assuming shit about me, I guess just because im in this country? Without even knowing anything about *my particular situation (outside of my lesbianism). Or even *why I am here? or what my plans for my future are? it's much easier to just assume, right? shit, i even co-signed on him talking about african's roaming the world being made to contribute to their native land...

Maybe you should have asked how instances we are talking against *have affected me. That would make for better dialogue. I could give you situations that ran 3 generations deep. Starting with my grandfather, my mother, her brothers and sisters, me, my cousins, my half sister in England.. bladdly bla. But ima let you keep making assumptions about what does and does not directly affect me. It is in step with your e-personality. and its really not the time for sob stories either.




*and by the way… I do know of organizations *in Africa that are talking about queer rights. And you know why they aren’t heard of, or why they operate in fear?
Because these democratic governments you speak of can’t guarantee their safety or their rights.


DARE to muse
>over the need for dictatorship and brute force as the wider
>consensus agrees that continued bloodshed today is highly
>unecessary and wasteful in the name of order, peace and
>progress.

and again... you really should read what *we are saying.
aint nobody talking about increased bloodshed. if anything, AFRICAN said *jail the politicans.
not kill or whatever
and he's speaking AGAINST the bloodshed you are talking about.
that shit happens because the leadership is weak and can't prevent it from happening.

How easy to talk about what Africans *should* be doing
when little if any of it *directly* has any affect upon you?

Are you willing to die or be jailed? Hell, are you even at risk?





http://www.43things.com/person/kimluv


>the Chinese)
>
>Even if one's country is a puppet government (i.e. Iraq) the
>preferred default ideal "good standing" of today are the more
>democratic nations.
>
>Like I've said, millions and countless times--the western
>way towards democracy is most likely NOT the way for African
>nations.
>
>The political theory you tout is simply outdated.
>
>The "organic process" is what is taking place today. African
>nations
>finding UNIQUE solutions to fit their UNIQUE circumstances and
>diverse cultures and histories. Incorporating what fits,
>tossing what doesn't.
>
>How ironic that you so smugly and safely behind your screen,
>liberated to write about your lesbian trysts, DARE to muse
>over the need for dictatorship and brute force as the wider
>consensus agrees that continued bloodshed today is highly
>unecessary and wasteful in the name of order, peace and
>progress.
>
>How easy to talk about what Africans *should* be doing
>when little if any of it *directly* has any affect upon you?
>
>Are you willing to die or be jailed? Hell, are you even at
>risk?
>
>
>
>
>
>>>http://www.43things.com/person/kimluv

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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akon
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Sat Mar-04-06 06:31 PM

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169. "actually, i'd like to see you attack these points..."
In response to Reply # 167


  

          

without all that poli-sci mumbo-jumbo.
im sure we are all well-versed in modernisation theories upto and including huntington's modernisation theory (which supposedly outlines the steps africa has to go through to reach the western level of 'development'.) which sounds like *what you are talking about... relating to africa from the 'modernisation' point of view. its a very narrow lens.

but anyway: *these are the points i want to see you attack. what's wrong with wanting these things for africa? what's the beef?
-------
A dedicated junta,with a rigid agenda.5 years.Could do wonders.

-Education.Free schooling,raise the quality of textbooks,get children and parents involved in after school activities.BY FORCE.

-Health.Close down private clinics and hospitals and focus on basic healthcare and PREVENTION.Shit is not that complicated.

-Development.Stop warring with everyone and get those soldiers rehabilitating the rural areas.Infrastructure.Infrastructure.Infrastructure.

Regulate business.REGULATE BUSINESS.

Crack down on corruption.

Raise the standard of living.

Make use of your countrymen roaming the fucking globe,giving their resources,intelligence and expertise to others-and not by choice either,they gotta eat-.

Lay down the law for NGO's if they want to work.Specific targets that have to be met with a time frame.

No political activity for 5 years.Death sentence if you do-and yes a lot of folks will buck it,gotta die-.

Jail every ex-politician for 5 years-all those over the age of 30-.

Ban all political parties-esp on Univeristy campuses-.5 years.

This is all very glib and simplified,but you get my drift.

After these 5 years are over,hold elections-which the junta will not participate in- and hand over to the elected goverment.After putting into effect a very clear constitution.

The catch of course,is that I know no one-myself included- I'd trust with that kind of power.
But if I did,I'd throw myself behind them 100 %.




>let's talk about tutu's truth and reconciliation..
>there are other opinions/people that felt that it let off
>(easily) folks that should have probably landed in jail for
>human's righs abuses. but that's not the point here.
>
>and south africa.... i guess success is relative. because that
>country has a lot of problems in terms of transfer of wealth
>to native south africans. if you dig beneath the surface....
>very little has changed for most south africans in terms of
>socio-economic status.
>so... maybe its considered the world's most successful... but
>i wonder, by whose standards?
>
>>considered one of the world's most successful MODERN
>>transitional processes into democracy the world has ever
>>seen.
>>
>>As I CLEARLY state above, in this MODERN, connected
>GLOBALIZED
>>world
>>dictatorship is NOT the viable answer for any nation trying
>to
>>move forward.
>
>have you read any of AFRICAN's posts? it reads like you
>havent.
>a) democracy is NOT working for africa.
>especially now that most of these african countries *are
>peddling democratically elected legitimate government. i'd
>give kenya as the best example. kibaki's government. do you
>know how much aid he has finangled from the world bank ever
>since he got elected... just on the basis that he *was
>democratically elected? more public debt. GREAT!
>museveni's,recently elected one, etc
>
>b) we have that unique problem called tribalism.
>i dont see how this problem can be squelched by hand-holding
>and talking about modernism and globalisation. tribes have
>always existed, and so has animosity.. the kikuyus have always
>hated the luo's, the dinkas hate everyone not dinka. But
>tribalism... which a lot of times is politically instigated
>(and in saying this im talking about people hacking others
>with machete’s for whatever reasons). Why is the response
>from govt always slow? Shit, couple years ago a group of
>rogues damn hear held a village hostage a whole night in
>Kenya… the cops were called…. Nothing happened. Every single
>one of them got off scot free. Now YOU tell me how to deal
>with something like this except by having a leadership with
>ZERO tolerance for it.
>c) corruption. entrenched in EVERY level of goverment, private
>and public business, on the streets etc. you cant get shit
>without giving a little chai. and the cops are even worse.
>so many times you see money changing hands.... and no one says
>anything. its almost a part of life.
>
>c) poor infrastructure. poorly managed/ mismanaged resources,
>crumbling/failing health care, education systems that are mere
>caricatures of the colonialist's educ. system,
>d) public debt…
>
>>>Not to mention, dictatorships in African nations could not
>survive very long via isolation especially if they are wholly
>dependent upon international trade to support their developing
>economies (unless of course they dealt solely with the
>Chinese)
>
>By the way…dictatorships in Africa have survived…. For long
>periods I might add. And especially due to support from the
>very countries you are touting. Dare we mention mobutu? Moi?
> Unless you are trying to claim these were democracies. The
>only countries that get isolated are those that try to find
>their own (unique) solutions to their inherent problems
>(mwalimu julius nyerere, anyone?).
>
>
>>Like I've said, millions and countless times--the western
>way towards democracy is most likely NOT the way for African
>nations.
>
>>The political theory you tout is simply outdated.
>
>again.. why is this outdated? Im sure we can come up with
>examples in today’s contemporary society that disprove this.
>outdated is relative. Unless you come up with a time-period
>beyond which ‘outdated’ lies, then you really can’t claim this
>with a straight face.
>
>>The "organic process" is what is taking place today. African
>nations
>finding UNIQUE solutions to fit their UNIQUE circumstances and
>diverse cultures and histories. Incorporating what fits,
>tossing what doesn't.
>
>I thought this is what this post is about? I don’t understand
>your beef. AFRICAN is talking about the current ‘democracy
>that exists in Africa, as not working. I doubt you will meet
>an African that disagrees with this. He’s doing more than
>just sitting and disagreeing with things…. He’s trying to
>figure out solutions. It sounds like you read the word
>dictator and ran with it.. like didn’t even bother reading the
>rest of the post. Maybe he should have sugar coated it and
>said a ‘strong’ leader with the people’s interests at heart?
>
>
>>>How ironic that you so smugly and safely behind your screen,
>liberated to write about your lesbian trysts, DARE to muse
>over the need for dictatorship and brute force as the wider
>consensus agrees that continued bloodshed today is highly
>unecessary and wasteful in the name of order, peace and
>progress.
>
>
>Okay…. I don’t know how my sexuality got into this debate but
>I guess everytime someone sees the name akon it’s the first
>thing that springs to mind. I could be writing about water or
>whatever and I will immediately get put into that box.
>
>Let’s look at what AFRICAN is speaking against.
>Education.health. development. Regulate business. Crack down
>corruption. Raise stds of living. Put checks on the brain
>drain....etc
>
>The only things I’d say he’s talking about curtailing is
>political activity. And I believe I *know exactly what kind of
>political activity he’s talking about- the pedestrian kind
>that happens day today- read any African paper, ask any
>African….
>I had to re read my post to see where I might have talked
>about curtailing people’s freedoms, outside of hate speech
>(which fuels tribalism in every country I know, and which
>masquerades as ‘politics’).
>
>Im talking about an ideal country in which people share a
>sense of solidarity, where people benefit from the political
>process. AFRICAN’s ‘solution’ is to have a five year
>‘dictatorship to implement *just those kinds of conditions
>necessary to ascertain that.
>Shit are you trying to imply that I would speak so harshly
>against tribalism (hatred based on tribal alliances) and not
>have a problem with a government that supported hatred in any
>form., including homosexuality? Why would I be unwilling to
>endure *certain hardships, enforced by a government if I
>believed that it would guarantee a better standard of living,
>greater freedoms and the kind of Africa *I dream about? Shit,
>at least I’d be getting something in return. Instead we are
>used to suffering with no end in sight. What im cosigning in
>this post is curtailing the freedoms of tribalists and the
>kinds of politicans we have driving around in benzes emptying
>public coffers. and this would stand even if i wasn't a
>lesbian talking about my trysts.
>
>Zora im really trying to grasp the straws you grasped when you
>brought in my sexuality, and really? I cant.
>
>And then you come here assuming shit about me, I guess just
>because im in this country? Without even knowing anything
>about *my particular situation (outside of my lesbianism). Or
>even *why I am here? or what my plans for my future are? it's
>much easier to just assume, right? shit, i even co-signed on
>him talking about african's roaming the world being made to
>contribute to their native land...
>
>Maybe you should have asked how instances we are talking
>against *have affected me. That would make for better
>dialogue. I could give you situations that ran 3 generations
>deep. Starting with my grandfather, my mother, her brothers
>and sisters, me, my cousins, my half sister in England..
>bladdly bla. But ima let you keep making assumptions about
>what does and does not directly affect me. It is in step with
>your e-personality. and its really not the time for sob
>stories either.
>
>
>
>
>*and by the way… I do know of organizations *in Africa that
>are talking about queer rights. And you know why they aren’t
>heard of, or why they operate in fear?
>Because these democratic governments you speak of can’t
>guarantee their safety or their rights.
>
>
>DARE to muse
>>over the need for dictatorship and brute force as the wider
>>consensus agrees that continued bloodshed today is highly
>>unecessary and wasteful in the name of order, peace and
>>progress.
>
> and again... you really should read what *we are saying.
>aint nobody talking about increased bloodshed. if anything,
>AFRICAN said *jail the politicans.
>not kill or whatever
>and he's speaking AGAINST the bloodshed you are talking
>about.
>that shit happens because the leadership is weak and can't
>prevent it from happening.
>
>How easy to talk about what Africans *should* be doing
>when little if any of it *directly* has any affect upon you?
>
>Are you willing to die or be jailed? Hell, are you even at
>risk?
>
>
>
>
>
>http://www.43things.com/person/kimluv
>
>
>>the Chinese)
>>
>>Even if one's country is a puppet government (i.e. Iraq) the
>>preferred default ideal "good standing" of today are the
>more
>>democratic nations.
>>
>>Like I've said, millions and countless times--the western
>>way towards democracy is most likely NOT the way for African
>>nations.
>>
>>The political theory you tout is simply outdated.
>>
>>The "organic process" is what is taking place today.
>African
>>nations
>>finding UNIQUE solutions to fit their UNIQUE circumstances
>and
>>diverse cultures and histories. Incorporating what fits,
>>tossing what doesn't.
>>
>>How ironic that you so smugly and safely behind your screen,
>>liberated to write about your lesbian trysts, DARE to muse
>>over the need for dictatorship and brute force as the wider
>>consensus agrees that continued bloodshed today is highly
>>unecessary and wasteful in the name of order, peace and
>>progress.
>>
>>How easy to talk about what Africans *should* be doing
>>when little if any of it *directly* has any affect upon you?
>>
>>Are you willing to die or be jailed? Hell, are you even at
>>risk?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>>http://www.43things.com/person/kimluv
>

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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AFRICAN
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Sun Mar-05-06 04:52 AM

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176. "I was hoping you'd ignore this particular post"
In response to Reply # 169


  

          

seeing as the poster dived into some bullshit,but you're a better person than I am.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
instagram:@3rdworldview
Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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akon
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Sun Mar-05-06 09:24 AM

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186. "its kinda hard to ignore a pink elephant in the room"
In response to Reply # 176
Sun Mar-05-06 09:43 AM by akon

  

          

i actually just saw this post yesterday.
and immediately got heated cause i hate it when people resort to digressing into shit that has nothing to do with the discussions at hand.

i was gonna inbox ..but she kinda called me out my name... with the whole lesbian tryst thing, y'know.. implying certain shit. i'm a read between the lines kinda girl... i had to defend my honar, your honour!



by the way, i find it kinda interesting that she says that isolationism and non democracy cannot succeed in this world when there's the example of china. this might not be the ideal because of its human rights issues.... but it should be proof in point that democracy is not the only mantra we should be following blindly.



>seeing as the poster dived into some bullshit,but you're a
>better person than I am.
>

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Zorasmoon
Member since Aug 30th 2002
37997 posts
Sun Mar-05-06 09:41 PM

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200. "same "bullshit calling" questions apply to you:"
In response to Reply # 176


  

          

How easy to talk about what Africans *should* be doing
when little if any of it *directly* has any affect upon you?

Are you willing to die or be jailed?

Hell, are you even at risk?


^^questions to ask yourself if you *truly* believe in your theory.
Anything less is further patronizing a contintent that seems
to have had its lion's share of that over the centuries.





http://www.43things.com/person/kimluv

  

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AFRICAN
Charter member
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Mon Mar-06-06 12:55 AM

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201. "Yes to all"
In response to Reply # 200


  

          

I am directly affected.I live here.What kind of question is that anyway?
If you read the post-which I seriously doubt- you would across the part where I said I don't know anyone I would trust with that much power-myself included-.
And I really don't have a problem with opposing views,that was the purpose of this post,different views.

But don't come in here talking shit about shit you don't know about.

I gotta be in a world vision commercial with flies on my face to make an observation about my country now?

If you want to have a respectful dialouge,cool,if not,cool,I just won't reply.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
instagram:@3rdworldview
Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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Zorasmoon
Member since Aug 30th 2002
37997 posts
Mon Mar-06-06 03:04 AM

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206. "o' save the snarky..."
In response to Reply # 201


  

          

u ask, what type of question? a VALID one
especially in the context of this conversation,
where space, place and privilege FRAME the facts.

not sure which African country you currently
reside. but you certainly can't speak for them
all and you certainly ain't gonna solve problems
or gain any insight on nation-building from folks
who barely have power and voice in their own countries.

message board activism sux. somewhere, REAL work
is needed to be done. and time is so precious, no?




http://www.43things.com/person/kimluv

  

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AFRICAN
Charter member
11871 posts
Mon Mar-06-06 03:16 AM

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208. "I don't do snark."
In response to Reply # 206


  

          

>u ask, what type of question? a VALID one
>especially in the context of this conversation,
>where space, place and privilege FRAME the facts.
>not sure which African country you currently
>reside. but you certainly can't speak for them
>all and you certainly ain't gonna solve problems
>or gain any insight on nation-building from folks
>who barely have power and voice in their own countries.
>

I live in Sudan.Speculation is never a good look.
I SPECIFICALLY said this was my opinion and I didn't claim to speak for anyone.
I'm now positive you didn't read beyond the title.


>message board activism sux. somewhere, REAL work
>is needed to be done. and time is so precious, no?

This is not activism.
It's opinion.
I have no issue with you personally,I am not trying to belittle you in any way or form,but do you have something of substance to say or are you just dazzling us with verbal gymnastics?
Because you haven't addressed any points raised in this 200+ post.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
instagram:@3rdworldview
Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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Zorasmoon
Member since Aug 30th 2002
37997 posts
Mon Mar-06-06 03:19 AM

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211. "did you forget the last statment?"
In response to Reply # 208


  

          

you are wasting TIME.

http://www.43things.com/person/kimluv

  

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AFRICAN
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11871 posts
Mon Mar-06-06 03:29 AM

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212. "You win n/m."
In response to Reply # 211


  

          

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
instagram:@3rdworldview
Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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Zorasmoon
Member since Aug 30th 2002
37997 posts
Mon Mar-06-06 03:36 AM

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213. "there was never a contest..."
In response to Reply # 212


  

          

unfortunately, you missed that.


http://www.43things.com/person/kimluv

  

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akon
Charter member
27010 posts
Mon Mar-06-06 08:27 AM

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214. "wahenga walinena: ukibishana na mjinga, utakuwa mjinga mwenyewe"
In response to Reply # 208


  

          

but you are a wiser one than i am, AFRICAN!



>>u ask, what type of question? a VALID one
>>especially in the context of this conversation,
>>where space, place and privilege FRAME the facts.
>>not sure which African country you currently
>>reside. but you certainly can't speak for them
>>all and you certainly ain't gonna solve problems
>>or gain any insight on nation-building from folks
>>who barely have power and voice in their own countries.
>>
>
>I live in Sudan.Speculation is never a good look.
>I SPECIFICALLY said this was my opinion and I didn't claim to
>speak for anyone.
>I'm now positive you didn't read beyond the title.
>
>
>>message board activism sux. somewhere, REAL work
>>is needed to be done. and time is so precious, no?
>
>This is not activism.
>It's opinion.
>I have no issue with you personally,I am not trying to
>belittle you in any way or form,but do you have something of
>substance to say or are you just dazzling us with verbal
>gymnastics?
>Because you haven't addressed any points raised in this 200+
>post.

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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akon
Charter member
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Mon Mar-06-06 09:16 AM

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218. ""
In response to Reply # 206


  

          


What the hell does space,place and priviledge have to do with this post?
We are talking about, what does Africa need to do to succeed.. We aren’t talking about who can and cannot speak about africa’s issues. And even if we did that. Don’t you think you would have the least credibility?

You tried to imply that AFRICAN has no right to speak about Africa, cause you assumed he was not in Africa and then when he corrects you the best you can come up with is: well, you cant speak for every African country?
What exactly are you questioning: his africanness or his right to have an opinion?

>reside. but you certainly can't speak for them
all and you certainly ain't gonna solve problems
or gain any insight on nation-building from folks

by the way, nation building and problem solving begins with folks sitting down, looking at problems and *gasp! trying to find solutions. Sounds eerily like this post no? sounds eerily like every political movement, no?

I was gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you might have a clue as to what you are talking about: but im sadly mistaken. Political activism, of whatever sort, starts with a manifesto, or an agenda. With folks talking… exchanging ideas back and forth. I’d give you examples from your very own contemporary history- the civil rights era, but I feel like it would go over your head.

You seem to suggest that folks should just blindly go up in arms and give up lives. (a contradiction, here you go talking about we are calling for increased bloodshed and yet you believes folks should be giving up lives?) How they hell do you do that without having some sort of idea as to what needs to be done? Time is precious, yes. So it makes better sense to a blue print instead of the blind following the blind.



>u ask, what type of question? a VALID one
>especially in the context of this conversation,
>where space, place and privilege FRAME the facts.
>
>not sure which African country you currently
>reside. but you certainly can't speak for them
>all and you certainly ain't gonna solve problems
>or gain any insight on nation-building from folks
>who barely have power and voice in their own countries.
>
>message board activism sux. somewhere, REAL work
>is needed to be done. and time is so precious, no?
>
>
>
>
>>>http://www.43things.com/person/kimluv

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Zorasmoon
Member since Aug 30th 2002
37997 posts
Sun Mar-05-06 09:28 PM

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199. "All of this *speculation* but you ARE enjoying some rights and"
In response to Reply # 169


  

          

privileges that you could NOT in the vast majority of these African nations.
CERTAINLY not under a dictatorship, here or abroad.
Which you seem to glorify--most likely due to INEXPERIENCE.

So no assumptions at all. And thats why it was brought up.
Message board activists and political theorists
who are FREE to muse over what *should* be done in
Africa even though NONE of it *directly*
affects them and their creature comfort lifestyles.

Makes me sick.

Although I choose not to speak for Africans,
I'd think, just from my experience as a black American
under paternal white rule,
that the shit would be found insulting.

>>>Zora im really trying to grasp the straws you grasped when you brought in my sexuality, and really? I cant<<<


>>Why would I be unwilling to endure *certain hardships, enforced by a government if I believed that it would guarantee a better standard of living, greater freedoms and the kind of Africa *I dream about? Shit, at least I’d be getting something in return. Instead we are used to suffering with no end in sight.<<<

Then why aren't you over there right NOW
at this moment giving up your LIFE to make this happen?
Since you're so dedicated and concerned?
What the hell is this "WE" biz?
Are you a dual citizen? Are you allowed to vote/work in any of the African nations?

>>>What im cosigning in this post is curtailing the freedoms of tribalists and the kinds of politicans we have driving around in benzes emptying public coffers. and this would stand even if i wasn't a lesbian talking about my trysts.<<<

But again, YOU aren't at risk!
How EASY it is for you to co-sign
the curtailing of freedoms from your comfy abode?

As for instant solutions for the array of
problems on the contintent,
hell no you will NOT engage me in a continued
pointless exchange about solutions. Fuck that.

First and foremost I KNOW better than to think *I* know
whats best for them. Tribalism or not. Ya'll need to listen
to yourselves sometimes.
Neo-colonialism is VERY real.

And secondly, I live in AMERICA--which
is not without its OWN problems.

I know enough Africans from all over the continent to know that AFRICA is gonna be all right.
Its the mofos over here you need to worry about *saving*.

Thats whats gonna fuck yall up for real.

now chew on that.







http://www.43things.com/person/kimluv

  

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les_fleurs
Member since Aug 23rd 2003
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Mon Mar-06-06 08:44 AM

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215. "I'm actually shocked at all the things you said here Zora"
In response to Reply # 199
Mon Mar-06-06 08:50 AM by les_fleurs

          

I usually respect the fact that you speak you mind
but honestly I don't think you understood the point of this post
and you're here assuming things about what folks are doing
that is very insulting.
You don't know what any of us is doing in the background
and that isn't even the point of this post.
accept the fact that people can discuss whatever they want
in whatever way they want, for whatever intention they have.

I think there's a lot you can learn from this post
but you choose to be on the defensive and bring up weird points
I know you're smarter than that.
this post is about learning and dialogue
if you read throughout the post
you'll see that this whole affair is extremely complex
What we're doing is making sense of all this mess

You say we need more action
what makes you think nobody is actually "doing" anything
and why would anybody try to justify anything to an aggresive person?
and most importantly it's one thing to take action
but it's another to take the RIGHT course of action
you need to appraise the situation in order to take the right course of action
you know that

I don't know maybe you're trying to save face by continuing to argue
but that's not what this post is about
let's leave our egos at the door
and learn a thing or two
Because as you can see that's what AFRICAN had in mind when he made this post.
that is why he's still going back & forth with ppl in this post
when we dialogue with others we see things clearly

  

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akon
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Mon Mar-06-06 08:54 AM

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216. "she got that good crab, les fleurs"
In response to Reply # 215


  

          

>I usually respect the fact that you speak you mind
>but honestly I don't think you understood the point of this
>post
>and you're here assuming things about what folks are doing
>that is very insulting.
>You don't know what any of us is doing in the background
>and that isn't even the point of this post.
>accept the fact that people can discuss whatever they want
>in whatever way they want, for whatever intention they have.
>
>I think there's a lot you can learn from this post
>but you choose to be on the defensive and bring up weird
>points
>I know you're smarter than that.
>this post is about learning and dialogue
>if you read throughout the post
>you'll see that this whole affair is extremely complex
>What we're doing is making sense of all this mess
>
>You say we need more action
>what makes you think nobody is actually "doing" anything
>and why would anybody try to justify anything to an aggresive
>person?
>and most importantly it's one thing to take action
>but it's another to take the RIGHT course of action
>you need to appraise the situation in order to take the right
>course of action
>you know that
>
>I don't know maybe you're trying to save face by continuing to
>argue
>but that's not what this post is about
>let's leave our egos at the door
>and learn a thing or two
>Because as you can see that's what AFRICAN had in mind when he
>made this post.
>that is why he's still going back & forth with ppl in this
>post
>when we dialogue with others we see things clearly
>

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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samsara
Member since Sep 15th 2002
3464 posts
Mon Mar-06-06 09:07 AM

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217. "i was about to rate this the best "post-bongo" post"
In response to Reply # 215


  

          

(even though i see he showed up anyway)
until i caught this exchange

just wow.

that was extra.

"i fear no fate" e.e. cummings
"No girl. No fried chicken. I'm going back to get some sleep." - Haruki Murakami

  

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les_fleurs
Member since Aug 23rd 2003
11777 posts
Mon Mar-06-06 09:42 AM

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219. "lol @ post Bongo. you thought he was going for ever?"
In response to Reply # 217


          

But yeah the whole exchange above was extra
I'm shocked Zora out of all ppl started it
But I'm glad this post is going forward
They shouldn't archive it yet
excellent points have been made
and I'm glad nobody treated this like it's a simple problem
See how this reached +200 replies
I love this post
good job AFRICAN


>(even though i see he showed up anyway)
>until i caught this exchange
>
>just wow.
>
>that was extra.

  

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Zorasmoon
Member since Aug 30th 2002
37997 posts
Mon Mar-06-06 05:12 PM

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225. "i don't need nor desire your praise or permission..."
In response to Reply # 215


  

          

I stand firmly behind every single statement I've written.

Yes, I have strong personal and political opinions about
human rights issues--and a distaste for patronizing attitudes
towards developing nations (particularly from privileged
distant outsiders)

Hell yes, I chose to focus on the aspect of the conversation
that resonated the MOST which was spelled out clearly. Feel
goody fluff did not distract me from the basis of the idea.

Nationalism and political conformity through force.

You are certainly entitled to be offended, but you are
NOT entitled to tell me how I should approach the topic,
interpret its original intent or express my passionate views.

Save your condescension, certainly you must
be "smarter" than to think that it holds any currency.

^ For future reference, never forget that.








http://www.43things.com/person/kimluv

  

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les_fleurs
Member since Aug 23rd 2003
11777 posts
Mon Mar-06-06 08:03 PM

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231. "LOL either you're doing this on purpose or you're just being ignorant"
In response to Reply # 225
Mon Mar-06-06 08:07 PM by les_fleurs

          

and what's with the attitude? Someone broke your car?

btw my post wasn't meant to be condescenting. I was redirecting this convo to the topic at hand and visibly, it was my mistake to expect an unaggresive and productive dialogue with you. It looks like you value your assumptions a lot and you don't even want to see if they're actually correct. But that's your choice - who am I to say anything about that?

It looks like we have different ideas of what discussion actually is. So perhaps you're wasting your very precious time reading the various opinions of what you "think" are disconnected Africans. You might consider the option of leaving this post. I'm just suggesting of course - you make the choice

Actually I must point out that the disconnected Africans in this post have actually either: grown up in Africa, travelled to many parts of the continent, have their family (wich they are in contact with) back home or scattered aroud the continent, some have gone abroad for uni then returned to make their contribution, Some have actually recently returned, Some are returning shortly, others are actually getting education with the only of objective of going back and contribute to something productive & on top of that they do regularly go back to Africa, and finaly they all come from different soci-economic backgrounds and perspectives.

Of course they don't necessarly openly discuss all that on these boards so I guess it's safe to assume that they don't know anything about their native countries or Africa in general. That they live on another planet, so therefore unable to form any sort of opinions on Africa. I suppose they really don't have a reason to be so passionate or eager to think about solutions to Africa's problems. They're formulating drastic measures because they really have no idea about what needs to be fixed (and how bad). They shouldn't be allowed to have personal opinions. Fuck initially trying to create the proper infrastructure for democracy to work in the future. They should just walk around with "democracy 4 life" banners and wait for democracy to fall from the sky (that's been done for decades and nothing happened...but it's okay there's time).

Your replies above show that you don't like to change your assumptions, so I'll stop wasting your time. Have fun with said assumptions

  

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akon
Charter member
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Mon Mar-06-06 08:10 PM

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232. "les fleurs, elle a une grande probleme avec moi,"
In response to Reply # 231
Mon Mar-06-06 08:11 PM by akon

  

          

et je ne sais pas, pourqui?
peut etre elle pense que je ne suis pas africaine?
ou peut etre je manque l'essence d'etre africaine?

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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akon
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Mon Mar-06-06 12:15 PM

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221. "there's still a pink elephant in the room."
In response to Reply # 199


  

          

what rights and priviledges are these you are talking about?
And how do you know that I wouldn’t be enjoying them in the ‘vast majority of these African nations’?
You are coming across as though you know Africa more than anyone else,
even those that grew up there
(ironical because it’s exactly what you are accusing us of doing).

I know exactly what life in africa entails.
On the other hand, I doubt that *you do.
Regardless of how many African friends you have.
And by the way, what qualifies *their opinion and repudiates mine?


>CERTAINLY not under a dictatorship, here or abroad.
Which you seem to glorify--most likely due to INEXPERIENCE.

Inexperience?
So you know where I grew up? What I experienced?
And *you can make that judgement call as to whether it makes the grade or not?
That’s some high level bullshit right there.
You know nothing about what anyone has gone through and yet you are dismissing
whatever they have to say because you have already formulated a baseless opinion.
Makes me sick.

Folks that have nothing to contribute beyond trying to discredit others (you sound so much like the contemporary african politican, actually- the very ones we are speaking against-… cause wordplay is what they know best, and discrediting people as a way of avoiding the issues at hand, or even discrediting ideas on some: o it wont work anyway, or who are you to speak.)
Make me sick.

And yes I *do know what living under a dictatorship entails.
It sounds like you have this idea that it’s all bloodshed everyday, all day.
Very very ignorant.
Clearly shows that what you *do know does not go beyond media hype.

>So no assumptions at all. And thats why it was brought up.
>Message board activists and political theorists
who are FREE to muse over what *should* be done in
Africa even though NONE of it

*directly*
I don’t want to waste my time here trying to justify
how I have been *directly affected by the issues we are talking about.
I already said: I can regale you with stories that go 3 generations deep.
My father was the political martyr in this family. that was enough 'giving up of a life'
I truly believe solutions can and will come about without NEEDLESS violence.
and especially because this is a more global and connected world.

So…please eh?
I *know how I have been affected.
And if I respected your dialogue enough I probably would have entertained you and
given you situations of how/where/when and why.
But why bother?
Your modus operandi is to arrogantly assume, form baseless opinions,


>Although I choose not to speak for Africans,

What the hell are you doing in this post?
You are in here talking about what Africans can or cannot do.
What we can or cannot speak about
whether or not we have enough experience to speak about Africa
You are questioning whether or not people know anything about Africa-
whether they live there or not.
So what exactly are you doing except ‘choosing to speak for Africans?’
Trust me if I were African American, I *would find your point of view insulting.

>I'd think, just from my experience as a black American
under paternal white rule, that the shit would be found insulting.


>Then why aren't you over there right NOW
at this moment giving up your LIFE to make this happen?

Calling for bloodshed zora? Would that quench your thirst?
It’s not a tad bit in opposition to what you are supposedly standing for?
And name 1 person that has given up their life that was not vocal/did not espouse political ideology?
I’d argue they lost their lives because they chose to speak/ or write about issues at hand
This is all elementary poli-sci.
I gave you too much credit by assuming you might know something about *that.

I know why im here.
Its actually none of your business.
I don’t have to justify it to you.
I know what my life’s goals and ambitions are.
Unfortunately, you don’t.
So if it makes you happy to assume it involves remaining in this country enjoying “creature comforts”, my pleasure.

>Since you're so dedicated and concerned?
What the hell is this "WE" biz?
Are you a dual citizen? Are you allowed to vote/work in any of the African nations?

Girl please…
What does this have to do with anything?
What do you mean what the hell is this *we biz?
Now you are shooting blanks, for heavens sakes.
I’ll give you a hint: yes I can vote in an African country
and in fact, I have worked in an African country.
And no… no dual citizenship (the sudanese still claim me, though.
I’m sure i could get *that as my second nationality. It’s gonna happen if some dinka’s I know have their way!)
Does that give me some sorta zoracredibility?


>But again, YOU aren't at risk!
How EASY it is for you to co-sign
the curtailing of freedoms from your comfy abode?

So you know where I abide? Huh?
And you know what risks I face, right?
wow...At this rate I should probably be asking you about what I will be doing tomorrow;
Cause you know every last thing about me or where I come from/been through/where i'll be in a few years...

Maybe its that you don’t know what assumption means
(we cant dare assume seeing that you didn’t know about snarky, either).

>As for instant solutions for the array of
problems on the contintent,
hell no you will NOT engage me in a continued
pointless exchange about solutions. Fuck that.

We weren’t even trying to engage you.
(how arrogant of you to assume that we were)
we are doing quite well by ourselves.
You are the one that choose to come in here to try and piss on our parade.
All we are doing is asking you to substantiate your claims.
And especially refocus on what the issue at hand is.
Last I heard, it’s what happens when mature folks engage in dialogue…. instead of diatribe.
But because you have no legs to stand on, you want to focus on people’s qualifications and/or reputation,
and allegations about what their beliefs and ideologies are/ even what *type of person they are.
And even when we try and keep things above bar room brawling, by pointing out your mistakes,
you still refuse to read and comprehend. Its fundamental, zora.
I thought you *could remain objective….. I was clearly mistaken.

I still don’t get your beef. Do you think its only people in *power in Africa that should talk about africa’s problems?
And what movement, political or otherwise, do you know of that was led by people *in power?
This is such an interesting claim and it only proves how little you *do know of the political process, or history....



>First and foremost I KNOW better than to think *I* know
whats best for them. Tribalism or not. Ya'll need to listen
to yourselves sometimes.
Neo-colonialism is VERY real.

AFRICAN, I think we need to define some words for zora, here.
Like first and foremost: opinion. And how that does not mean, I “know better than to think I know what’s best for them.
Neo-colonialism.
Tribalism.
Cause I think she’s just throwing these around to sound like she *knows what she’s talking about.
And maybe a post about the political process.


>And secondly, I live in AMERICA--which
is not without its OWN problems.
I know enough Africans from all over the continent to know that AFRICA is gonna be all right.

Oh, shit, son! im sorry, I didn’t know this was an: who knows more Africans contest?
Can I play?

Actually, its folks like you we need to worry about.
Whether we are African Americans or Africans.
Folks that find a group of people trying to build,
and whilst having absolutely nothing to contribute,
proceed to try and destroy.
Y’all have a great expression for this type of behaviour.

and thats whats gonna fuck us up for real.


.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Zorasmoon
Member since Aug 30th 2002
37997 posts
Mon Mar-06-06 05:19 PM

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226. "wow. you are so unecessarily long winded..."
In response to Reply # 221


  

          

if you still have questions about
where I stand and why I wrote the statement
to you, its due to your own refusal
to accept it.

It can't be put more plainly.





http://www.43things.com/person/kimluv

  

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akon
Charter member
27010 posts
Mon Mar-06-06 05:24 PM

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227. "and reasoning with you is like reasoning with a padlock."
In response to Reply # 226


  

          

as i said before: wahenga walinena kubishana na mjinga ni ujinga.

i dont have any questions about where you stand
cause you really dont have a stance.
you are just on here to do that good crabbing


as i said: *you have the least credibility when it comes to talking about africa's issues.
for some reason you refuse to accept that.
it can't be put more plainly.


>if you still have questions about
>where I stand and why I wrote the statement
>to you, its due to your own refusal
>to accept it.
>
>It can't be put more plainly.
>
>
>
>
>
>>>http://www.43things.com/person/kimluv

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Zorasmoon
Member since Aug 30th 2002
37997 posts
Mon Mar-06-06 07:46 PM

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229. "right. cause u certainly are an expert in African foreign affairs.."
In response to Reply # 227


  

          

You spit newsbites well, but that alone is horibble cover
for your wide gaps in general historical facts and sensibility.

I see right through your mumbo jumbo.

I fully acknowledge and embrace that I'm African-AMERICAN, by culture and citizenship. My cultural competence begins and ends here unless I LIVE, plant deep roots and WORK elsewere. That there be the difference between us. I don't "know nothing about Africa" ain't had me mad at ALL.

I think, and this may be a grand leap considering whom I'm addressing, we can at least agree that claiming to know more about how to BEST address the political and cultural conflicts than the locals is BAD strategy.

Period.





http://www.43things.com/person/kimluv

  

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akon
Charter member
27010 posts
Mon Mar-06-06 07:53 PM

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230. "^^^^^reasoning like a padlock: exhibit A"
In response to Reply # 229
Mon Mar-06-06 07:55 PM by akon

  

          

>You spit newsbites well, but that alone is horibble cover
>for your wide gaps in general historical facts and
>sensibility.

what gaps are these? give me 1 credible example.
cause you are yet to do that.

>I see right through your mumbo jumbo.
>
>I fully acknowledge and embrace that I'm African-AMERICAN, by
>culture and citizenship. My cultural competence begins and
>ends here unless I LIVE, plant deep roots and WORK elsewere.

i fully acknowledge that i am AFRICAN by culture and citizenship.
my cultural competency begins and ends in AFRICA and i have yet to choose to live and plant roots elsewhere.
so what in the blue fuck are you talking about?
the difference between you and i is that i am an african. born and raised. talking about african issues,
and you are an african american with a chip off your shoulder that has something to do with assumptions you are making about me.


>That there be the difference between us. I don't "know nothing
>about Africa" ain't had me mad at ALL.
>
>I think, and this may be a grand leap considering whom I'm
>addressing,

explain this. what do you mean, who i am addressing. you are being condescending and i'd like to know why.

we can at least agree that claiming to know more
>about how to BEST address the political and cultural conflicts
>than the locals is BAD strategy.

than the locals???? what the fuck do you think i am?


>
>Period.
>
>
>
>
>
>>>http://www.43things.com/person/kimluv

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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les_fleurs
Member since Aug 23rd 2003
11777 posts
Mon Mar-06-06 08:18 PM

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233. "We're posting on OKP so we're not locals. stop making sense Akon!"
In response to Reply # 230


          

You're not allowed to seek solutions for Africa!

seriously sis drop it
me I finish here
because this one is a lost cause
there's more interesting points in the posts below

  

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akon
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27010 posts
Mon Mar-06-06 09:10 PM

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236. "but im is learning so much about myself, les fleurs"
In response to Reply # 233


  

          

i didn't even know i had "wide gaps in general historical facts and sensibility".

im patiently waiting to hear what my "citizenship" and cultural allegiance are.
or where i chose to plant DEEP roots in. (whatever the hell does this mean?)



>You're not allowed to seek solutions for Africa!
>
>seriously sis drop it
>me I finish here
>because this one is a lost cause
>there's more interesting points in the posts below

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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HueyShakur
Member since Aug 22nd 2003
18030 posts
Mon Mar-06-06 10:53 PM

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237. "^^^ comfort creature."
In response to Reply # 236


  

          

LOL.

*instigates*

---------
<= "Tomorrow" Romare Bearden

  

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akon
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27010 posts
Mon Mar-06-06 11:04 PM

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238. "<;--------spitting news bites well since 2000"
In response to Reply # 237
Mon Mar-06-06 11:07 PM by akon

  

          

i i see right through your mumbo jumbo, hueyS!

i actually think i insulted padlocks. these inanimate objects have much better sense.

>LOL.
>
>*instigates*
>

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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unfukwitable
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22112 posts
Mon Feb-27-06 11:23 AM

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102. "Closest Nigeria came to that"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.dawodu.com/buhari.htm

I don't think a full dictatorship is feasible anymore.

On curruption, I think there needs to be a general amnesty, call that shit even so folks can invest their money then get really strict in demanding accountability.


http://www.zuitomedia.com/photos/Eko/

  

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AFRICAN
Charter member
11871 posts
Mon Feb-27-06 11:59 AM

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105. "A lot of that was on point"
In response to Reply # 102


  

          

What went wrong?
I disagree,a full dictatorship is very feasible.It's not like these countries are bastions of democracy at the moment anyway.
The thing about granting such a widesweeping amnesty is that people will hold grudges against those pardoned and you will wind up implicated somehow/someway in peoples mind.I'd grant amnesty after they pay back the money-instead of jail time-.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
instagram:@3rdworldview
Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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akon
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27010 posts
Mon Feb-27-06 01:52 PM

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107. "AFRICAN... we have to jail the civil servants too..."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

i just thought about it...
they are just as corrupt.

im sure we can all give examples of cases where we had to pay extra just to get a service...... or to get someone to actually pay attention to what we had to say..

yes...
civil servants deserve their special brand of jail too!


>Every African whose ever talked politics,has heard that at
>some point or another.
>It's usually stated in a semi-serious manner,usually with a
>touch of self hate.
>
>I think I'm a believer though.
>My views are personal and I don't claim to speak for anyone.
>
>I think a dedicated,honest and rather ruthless dictator would
>actually be good.
>Not because we are incapable of making intelligent decsions
>about our leaders.
>Not because the lack of education.
>But beacuse of tribalism.
>Because of geopolitics.
>Because of the goddamn Coup's every fucking month.
>
>A dedicated junta,with a rigid agenda.5 years.Could do
>wonders.
>
>-Education.Free schooling,raise the quality of textbooks,get
>children and parents involved in after school activities.BY
>FORCE.
>
>-Health.Close down private clinics and hospitals and focus on
>basic healthcare and PREVENTION.Shit is not that complicated.
>
>-Development.Stop warring with everyone and get those soldiers
>rehabilitating the rural
>areas.Infrastructure.Infrastructure.Infrastructure.
>
>Regulate business.REGULATE BUSINESS.
>
>Crack down on corruption.
>
>Raise the standard of living.
>
>Make use of your countrymen roaming the fucking globe,giving
>their resources,intelligence and expertise to others-and not
>by choice either,they gotta eat-.
>
>Lay down the law for NGO's if they want to work.Specific
>targets that have to be met with a time frame.
>
>No political activity for 5 years.Death sentence if you do-and
>yes a lot of folks will buck it,gotta die-.
>
>Jail every ex-politician for 5 years-all those over the age of
>30-.
>
>Ban all political parties-esp on Univeristy campuses-.5
>years.
>
>This is all very glib and simplified,but you get my drift.
>
>After these 5 years are over,hold elections-which the junta
>will not participate in- and hand over to the elected
>goverment.After putting into effect a very clear
>constitution.
>
>The catch of course,is that I know no one-myself included- I'd
>trust with that kind of power.
>But if I did,I'd throw myself behind them 100 %.
>
>Attack this position if you will.
>

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Science_Fiction
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Mon Feb-27-06 02:01 PM

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108. "where does it end? you'd have to jail EVERY ONE."
In response to Reply # 107


  

          

its a way of life.

*****************
With all due respect...
ask around.

  

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akon
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Mon Feb-27-06 02:20 PM

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109. "maybe only the over 30's? (tongue in cheek)"
In response to Reply # 108


  

          

but seriously...
once you jail a few sacrificial lambs the rest would be too scared to continue.

and most people *know what/ who the corrupt in civil service are (i can tell you when it comes to kenya.). It would be pretty easy to weed out the corrupt from the non-corrupt. actually i think a good start would be to fire everyone and have them put in a bid for their jobs. that way those who benefitted from nepotism will be hard pressed to prove competency. and not only that... you can look at an someone's previous work record.

but seriously.. there's a large % of the civil service force that needs to be gotten rid off.


>its a way of life.

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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AFRICAN
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111. "wow"
In response to Reply # 107


  

          

I was just thinking of this.
I had to go to the Ministry of interior today.I won't even speak on it.Suffice to say my blood pressure is sky high right now.
I don't think I'd fire them though.That's a huge sector,made up of relatively poor people.
And seeing the pay they get,you can't really blame them for taking bribes.They don't make enough to live on-ditto for cops-.
The civil service does need an overhaul though.
Put qualified technocrats/beurocrats in charge.
Retrain staff,systematically.
Increase pay.
Cut down excess employment.
Another major issue is the obsession over white collar jobs.
This is somewhat universal,but we -any somewhat educated individual- have a bizarre disdain for menial/skilled labour.
Everyone wants an office job.
Even for less pay.
This post can't even touch the tip of the sand dune -fuck an iceberg san-.It's a vast subject- word to the Sahara-.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
instagram:@3rdworldview
Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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akon
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121. ""
In response to Reply # 111


  

          

I still think higher level civil servants should be jailed though.
They are politicians basically.. without a constituency.

But I agree a retrenchment of the civil service and re-organisation for greater accountability.
And everyone's job performance should be re evaluated every year or so.
(every other company does it)
i think most public service utilities are over staffed, though.
so there would have to be a major retrenchment.
what to do with the surplus employees?
good question.
also (at least in kenya) we have too many chiefs, district officers, provincial officers... relics of the colonial era.
no one knows exactly what their duties are
only that they draw a large salary, have govt housing, and politrick.
before kibaki started fucking us over, *we almost got rid of them in the
new constitution.
but seriously, small countries dont need to be *so heavily administered to where the administraters have administraters over them, who also have administrators..

kenya used to have a national youth service where kids would go
in for two years, get some technical training bladdybla
i think for a country with a very high youthful population
this is a good idea.
only it was mandatory..... i think it should be offered as an option
the nys usedta do a lot of public service work....

a lot of the bureaucracy can be gotten rid of, too.
All that paper work one has to do just to get a hearing
makes no kind of sense.
maybe its time we computerized more things...

My biggest quarrel though, is the police force.
In Kenya their motto is ‘utumishi kwa wote (service to all)
And they do the furthest thing from that.
instead i trust a local mwananchi before i can trust a cop
Something needs to give
And I don’t think cops should be walking around with ak47’s
in times of peace.

or in the case of kenya- i dont think they should be wearing
masks and raiding the offices of the press.





>I was just thinking of this.
>I had to go to the Ministry of interior today.I won't even
>speak on it.Suffice to say my blood pressure is sky high right
>now.
>I don't think I'd fire them though.That's a huge sector,made
>up of relatively poor people.
>And seeing the pay they get,you can't really blame them for
>taking bribes.They don't make enough to live on-ditto for
>cops-.
>The civil service does need an overhaul though.
>Put qualified technocrats/beurocrats in charge.
>Retrain staff,systematically.
>Increase pay.
>Cut down excess employment.
>Another major issue is the obsession over white collar jobs.
>This is somewhat universal,but we -any somewhat educated
>individual- have a bizarre disdain for menial/skilled labour.
>Everyone wants an office job.
>Even for less pay.
>This post can't even touch the tip of the sand dune -fuck an
>iceberg san-.It's a vast subject- word to the Sahara-.

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Torez
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Mon Feb-27-06 02:20 PM

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110. "^^^^ truth lurks ^^^^^^"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

the great leap forward that
brought china to where it is
now was fucked up, tyrannical,
ruthless and killed thousands
of folks.

look at china now, doe.

the question is, was all the death
and repression that was heaped on
the chinese WORTH it. yes, china
gets to point with pride to its
burgeoning middle class, its
superwealth, its industry and
its new place on the world stage.

but i wonder if there is a cost
to all those dead bodies. and if
there is, who pays?

and how?

  

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AFRICAN
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Tue Feb-28-06 02:19 AM

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112. "Great point"
In response to Reply # 110


  

          

It's fundamental to succeed to keep in mind why you set out to take over in the first place.
Worst case scenario is Russia.
Folks didn't end up any better on the microeconomic scale.
The outline I gave was glib and incomplete.
While I do believe that any change will only come around forcibly-not neccasarily violently-,I am totally against making people suffer.Sacrifise, yes,but violent repression ,no.It's self -defeating.
I think China in particular-and Communism in general- made the mistake of getting TOO involved in/ controlling of, peoples personal space/rights/freedoms.Ditto for the French reveoloution.
A lot of people suffered needlessly.
The whole purpose of this is to ease peoples daily lives.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
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Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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Freduardo
Member since Nov 12th 2002
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Thu Mar-02-06 11:44 PM

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116. "*smh*"
In response to Reply # 110


  

          

>the great leap forward that
>brought china to where it is
>now

word? that's what did it?

was fucked up, tyrannical,
>ruthless and killed thousands
>of folks.

thousands? dude...

  

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thegodcam
Member since Oct 22nd 2004
41497 posts
Thu Mar-02-06 11:29 PM

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115. "I FEEL THE EXACT SAME WAY ABOUT HAITI"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

give us a Castro for at least a decade or 2 and then we'll talk about democracy

*******************************************************
i will not let finite disappointment undermine infinite hope
- Cory Booker

Football is a simple game; 22 men chase a ball for 90 minutes, and at the end the Germans always win
- Gary Lineker

  

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Riot
Member since May 25th 2005
14614 posts
Fri Mar-03-06 12:09 AM

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118. ""benevolent despotism""
In response to Reply # 115


  

          

was the term coined by this nigerian cat that was drivin me (& a van full of nigerians) to a hotel for a nsbe conf



dude claimed to be a politician before he left nigeria too

what a convo that was



)))--####---###--(((

bunda
<-.-> ^_^ \^0^/
get busy living, or get busy dying.

  

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thegodcam
Member since Oct 22nd 2004
41497 posts
Fri Mar-03-06 11:45 AM

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120. "cab drivers r the BEST politicians"
In response to Reply # 118


  

          

they know EVERYTHING and literally have an answer for EVERY ill of society

*******************************************************
i will not let finite disappointment undermine infinite hope
- Cory Booker

Football is a simple game; 22 men chase a ball for 90 minutes, and at the end the Germans always win
- Gary Lineker

  

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AFRICAN
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122. "Seriously"
In response to Reply # 120


  

          

I always used to have great conversations with them.
Then somebody hipped me to the fact that a lot of security/intelligence people mascuerade as cab drivers-third world-.
I now nurse my intoxication in silence.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
instagram:@3rdworldview
Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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afrobongo
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Sat Mar-04-06 02:23 PM

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123. "oh god"
In response to Reply # 0


          


oh god.

i dont know where to start.


but let's say..

hmm.. the army ?

ROTFLMBAO


  

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AFRICAN
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Sat Mar-04-06 02:31 PM

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126. "Welcome san,"
In response to Reply # 123


  

          

just don't get cryptic on my ass.
You can start anywhere,the topic is vast enough right?
Army.
Of course you'd need them to pull this off.
Actually let them run it though,hell no-I see you turkey-.
Most of these-actually all- old generals would not support such a thing ever.
But lower down in the ranks I think you could pull it off.

This post is gonna get me detained and shit.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
instagram:@3rdworldview
Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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afrobongo
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Sat Mar-04-06 02:41 PM

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128. "then..."
In response to Reply # 126


          


why not simply do what an army is supposed to do ?

protect the country and its civilian governement from coups ?????


you know like France 1958, Ukraine 2005, Bolivia 2005, and a few other countries ?


i mean if they can do that, why would be able to bring us any kind of enlightement ?



because at the end of the day, the only thing they can teach us is discipline.
and sure some may credit Franco for keeping Spain unified.. but.. sheesh.. the country got it self together AFTER HIM.



______________________________


*TWINNING*

  

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AFRICAN
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Sat Mar-04-06 02:54 PM

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138. "For a couple of reasons"
In response to Reply # 128


  

          

>
>why not simply do what an army is supposed to do ?
>
>protect the country and its civilian governement from coups
>?????
>
I don't have a problem with this,but this is assuming that any civillian/democraticall elected goverment,will actually push thru difficult policies.I can't see it.They'll get caught up in the bullshit.
>
>you know like France 1958, Ukraine 2005, Bolivia 2005, and a
>few other countries ?
>
>
>i mean if they can do that, why would be able to bring us any
>kind of enlightement ?
>
I wouldn't say they would bring enlightenment-they might be 'enlightened' themselves,although I hate this term.-but they would ensure that the basic functions of the society would be enforced-with no fear of being overthrown or sidetracked by politics-.
>
>
>because at the end of the day, the only thing they can teach
>us is discipline.
>and sure some may credit Franco for keeping Spain unified..
>but.. sheesh.. the country got it self together AFTER HIM.

Who is going to enforce this discipline if not them?
And if we're not disciplined do we actually stand a chance?

Also you could argue that Franco's dictatorship is wha actually laid the foundation and future goverments built off that,no?

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
instagram:@3rdworldview
Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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afrobongo
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Sat Mar-04-06 03:21 PM

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154. "RE: For a couple of reasons"
In response to Reply # 138


          

>>
>>why not simply do what an army is supposed to do ?
>>
>>protect the country and its civilian governement from coups
>>?????
>>
>I don't have a problem with this,but this is assuming that any
>civillian/democraticall elected goverment,will actually push
>thru difficult policies.I can't see it.They'll get caught up
>in the bullshit.

you know what's the basic reason for elective democracy ?

you fuck up, yo don't get re-elected.


no matter how mch force you're trying to use.(i c u Bolivia and Ukraine).



>Also you could argue that Franco's dictatorship is wha
>actually laid the foundation and future goverments built off
>that,no?

NO


______________________________


*TWINNING*

  

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AFRICAN
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Sat Mar-04-06 03:25 PM

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155. "The thing is"
In response to Reply # 154


  

          

>
>you know what's the basic reason for elective democracy ?
>
>you fuck up, yo don't get re-elected.
>Do we have time to try out this theory?
And how many different goverments do we go thru before we decide it won't work?

>>Also you could argue that Franco's dictatorship is wha
>>actually laid the foundation and future goverments built off
>>that,no?
>
>NO.

Ha.Okay then.
>
>
>______________________________
>
>
>*TWINNING*

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
instagram:@3rdworldview
Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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akon
Charter member
27010 posts
Sat Mar-04-06 03:48 PM

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162. "i thought...."
In response to Reply # 155


  

          

the basic reason for a democracy is so that folks have a say in who governs them?
and yes, you fuck up, you dont get re elected

let's apply this to africa.
yes we elect rulers, but at the end of the day, the common mwananchi is very far removed from the political process.
the laws are made and enforced from a centralised locale.
and you read about it in the press.
the only time you actively see politicans is every 5 years come election time.
the 90's have ushered in the irony that *most african countries now have democratically elected presidents.... the reality, though?
to me that says this process is flawed.

its time to come up with an alternative.
and its not necessarily going to be a 'european' alternative.
what franco or whoever did might not apply to an african context.

but yes..
a leader strong enough to squelch the tribalism
i believe its important to have cultural identities, tribes etc...
the problem is when we have tribes that want to exterminate others,
or lord it over others. that.shit.needs.to.stop.
it wont stop by hand holding.





>>
>>you know what's the basic reason for elective democracy ?
>>
>>you fuck up, yo don't get re-elected.
>>Do we have time to try out this theory?
>And how many different goverments do we go thru before we
>decide it won't work?
>
>>>Also you could argue that Franco's dictatorship is wha
>>>actually laid the foundation and future goverments built
>off
>>>that,no?
>>
>>NO.
>
>Ha.Okay then.
>>
>>
>>______________________________
>>
>>
>>*TWINNING*
>

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Natural Mystic
Charter member
posts
Sat Mar-04-06 02:26 PM

124. "Will Africa ever be A Great Nation again?"
In response to Reply # 0


          

is my question.

  

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afrobongo
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Sat Mar-04-06 02:29 PM

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125. "has it ever been ?"
In response to Reply # 124


          


______________________________


*TWINNING*

  

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Natural Mystic
Charter member
posts
Sat Mar-04-06 02:45 PM

129. "5000 years ago? it was great enough that europe had to come and rape it"
In response to Reply # 125
Sat Mar-04-06 02:49 PM by Natural Mystic

          

during the Kush era
and ever since

  

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AFRICAN
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Sat Mar-04-06 02:46 PM

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130. "Nope"
In response to Reply # 129


  

          

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
instagram:@3rdworldview
Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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Natural Mystic
Charter member
posts
Sat Mar-04-06 02:50 PM

134. "not even then?!?!"
In response to Reply # 130


          

damn!



i know this country had power at one point
before the roman empire maybe?
when alexandria, eygpt was the place to go
for an education?



it HAD to be KICKASS at ONE point in time....

  

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afrobongo
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Sat Mar-04-06 02:51 PM

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136. "why is named ALEXANDRIA, young palawan ?"
In response to Reply # 134


          


______________________________


*TWINNING*

  

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Natural Mystic
Charter member
posts
Sat Mar-04-06 02:54 PM

139. "RE: why is named ALEXANDRIA, young palawan ?"
In response to Reply # 136


          

*flew over my head*

you mean why did i NAME alexandria?
im sorry,
its early
and i dont have coffee in me yet

  

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AFRICAN
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Sat Mar-04-06 03:03 PM

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145. "The name Alexandria was not chosen by Egyptians n/m."
In response to Reply # 139


  

          

.

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Natural Mystic
Charter member
posts
Sat Mar-04-06 03:06 PM

147. "OoOooooooOOoOoh. Educate me."
In response to Reply # 145


          

what is the original name?

  

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AFRICAN
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Sat Mar-04-06 03:13 PM

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151. "Alexander the Great"
In response to Reply # 147


  

          

A couple of articles on the city.

Alexandria in the first decades of the third century BC was the greatest city of the Mediterranean. It was a royal city, residence of the Ptolemaic dynasty, which history had grafted onto the timeless tree of the Pharaohs, and it was also a cosmopolitan city bringing together adventurers, men of letters and science, merchants and travellers. Alexandria was the heart of a complex administration whose particular ambition was to amass all the trappings of wealth, the intellectual heritage of the Greeks and other peoples, as well as the curios of the natural world. All this was to be held and displayed in a town that would reflect the entire world at the same time as the glory of the dynasty. This book explores the varied elements, ideas and personalities that transformed a new town on the western edge of the Nile Delta into a metropolis of international importance and, ultimately, one of the cornerstones of the modern world.










-------------





What lies beneath
By Jill Kamil
The ancient Egyptian city of Canopus was so important a Mediterranean city that Alexander the Great went there straight from Memphis before heading west along the coast to found the city of Alexandria. Classical writers and travellers loved to chronicle the high life and sinful pleasures of ancient Canopus, and my interest about the legendary city was further piqued when I saw the magnificent mosaics of Nile scenes that originally decorated the villa of a wealthy Roman citizen in Italy.

But Canopus, along with other cities on the stretch of coast where five branches of the Nile once met the Mediterranean sea, has long since been lost -- drowned by seismic activity coupled with a neglect of sea defences. When I first visited the area it needed a far stretch of the imagination to visualise life there in its heyday. Tidal waves had entered the shallow waters and flooded any ruins and a possible rise in sea level could also have contributed to their loss. But a visit to the area was merely a symbolic one anyhow, as there would have been nothing to see even if the waters had not risen. My mentor and guide, who had accompanied me there, told me that the ancient cities of Canopus, Herakleon and Menouthis had totally disappeared by the ninth century. They were as surely gone as the lost island of Atlantis.

At least that's what we thought. But we were wrong. These cities are not the stuff of legend. Scholars long dreamed of finding their remains and in June, with the aid of modern scanning techniques, archaeologists finally did so. Frank Goddio, president of the European Institute of Marine Archaeology, and a team of underwater archaeologists, uncovered the ruins of the three cities lying some 10 to 15 metres beneath the Abu Qir Bay, where British forces trounced the French fleet in the famous "Battle of the Nile". The archaeological team came upon incredible treasures lying amidst cities frozen in time. Here, glimmering in the rippled water was a beautiful royal head, carved in granite, that may have adorned the courtyard of a palace. There, a headless granite statue recognisable as the goddess Isis. Beyond, a white marble head of the god Serapis, not as the Apis bull, but as a robust Greek god with curly hair and beard. The team swam among columns, a headless sphinx, various vessels and what is surely the most significant, if not the most impressive of the objects littering the sea bed: a large fragment of inscribed granite that proved to be a missing section of the Naos (shrine) of the Decades.

According to Greek mythology, Canopus was named after a Greek navigator who had accompanied the Greek king Menelaus on his return from the Trojan War. The ship was wrecked in the place now known as Abu Qir and he and his men sought refuge there. Canopus, the navigator, unfortunately died after being bitten by a poisonous snake. He was buried there and the area later took his name. That, at least, is one story about the origin of the name. Another, more plausible explanation, is that the town was named after Canup, an ancient deity associated with Osiris. In Alexandria's Graeco-Roman museum, there are two statues of an anonymous deity. The God was only identified because he is also represented in pottery drawings on which the name Canup is inscribed.



Hitting the motherload: Underwater archaeologists working near Abu Qir Bay on the northern coast unearth remains of the lost cities of Canopus, Herekleon and Menouthis earlier this year
photos: Hussein Fathi
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The city of Canopus was a point of entry to Egypt even as far back as the sixth century b.c., when Greek traders established an inland port at Naucratis. It was not feasible to establish it on the coast because, unlike Alexandria, it was not protected by offshore islands. Nile silt, along with the prevailing winds, constantly and repeatedly blocked up the shoreline during low floods. It was this branch of the Nile through which the Greek traveller and historian Herodotus sailed on his visit to Egypt; the one which Ptolemy the geographer called "the great river" to distinguish it from the other branches at Rosetta and Damietta; and it was the outlet that Strabo, the first-century Roman historian, commented was the only one left open -- all the others were closed in order to set up a monopoly on trade.

After the founding of Alexandria, the number of vessels sailing to Naucratis fell, but Canopus and the cities of Herakleon and Menouthis were linked by a canal that ran from the Canopic branch of the Nile to Alexandria -- it was through this channel that Alexandria received fresh water. Canopus thus remained a recreational city, a place where the elite of Alexandria came to play. Romans in search of a holiday made their way to Egypt from across the Mediterranean, not with the aim of visiting Alexandria, but Canopus. It was a tourist resort reputed to have the most beautiful and licentious of women in the world. It was no destination for sand, sea and sport, but for sun, scandal and sex.

The mosaic in Italy's Museo Prenestino, which originally formed part of a beautiful Roman palace, shows various boats on a tributary of the Nile. Secular and religious buildings line the banks. Scholars believe it is a scene that characterised the Delta during the annual flood when, according to Strabo, "the whole country (meaning the Delta) becomes a lake." Some of the boats are filled with revellers and the banks are bordered by beautiful walled gardens. But behind the walls, within the trellised porticos, one can catch a glimpse of sensual scenes -- perhaps not the orgies decried by the churches of Saint Cyr and Saint John at Menouthis, but delightfully promiscuous romps nevertheless. In the lower section is a wide canal with boats carrying travellers between Canopus and Alexandria, passing taverns with rowdy revellers.

Strabo described Canopus as charming and sensual with a reputation for women "unrestrained" and "without modesty". It was a playground for the rich. Those who could afford to do so visited from all parts of the Hellenistic world. They came for health, to consult oracles, or go to temple for "sleep cures" and revelatory dreams. But rowdy tales by moralising historians only whet the curiosity of scholars eager to reconstruct the life of the town. Did women use the favourite Egyptian fragrances to woo their lovers? Did traders sell souvenirs, sweets and charms to the tourists? Did the whole area become a ghost town at summer's end, when partygoers withdrew and the more conservative local population took over. Did they turn to the churches of Saint Cyr and Saint John to confess their sins and ask forgiveness?

Canopus had its temples, one in honour of Serapis. There were markets and industrial areas. Perhaps this was where the huge granite Naos of the Decades was made, fragments of which were later taken to the Louvre and to Alexandria's Graeco-Roman Museum. The inscribed granite slab dates to the fifth century b.c. and has intrigued generations of scholars, as it is the oldest known chronicle of the origins of astrology that echoes today's calendar.

Discovery of the lost cities reveals what has been apparent in many other heavily-populated areas of Egypt: the contrast between a multi-cultural community living alongside a conservative local population -- the contrast between poverty and plenty. How many pagans had converted to Christianity by the fifth century? Constantine the Great declared Christianity to be the religion of the empire in 313, and yet we hear complaints from the Christian community in this Mediterranean resort of a terrible female demon who appeared in the form of a ravishing beauty. Monks reputedly raided a certain house and discovered a secret walled chamber that contained a shrine, images of gods and fresh blood dripping from sacrifices. Anxious to rid the city of pagan idols, they ordered them removed. So numerous were they that 20 camels were required to carry them away. When the last evidence of pagan worship was removed, the building was burned, and a church was built on the site of the house of ill repute. It became famous as a healing centre, a place for treatment of the sick, where people could take a "sleep cure", in which saintly personages would bless and protect them.

Watching the waters of the Mediterranean, I try to envision the cities beneath the water. I wonder whether the buildings were abandoned slowly, as the water stole up and covered the lowland. Did the people have time to carry away their treasured possessions and take up residence elsewhere? Or was the drowning of these cities some 1,300 years ago the result of a single earthquake followed by a tidal wave of such proportions that, like the legendary Atlantis, all was lost in a single dramatic moment leaving nothing more than the name of Father Cyr -- today's Abu Qir Bay? What more remains to be found, interpreted, and learned about the ancient cities of Canopus, Herakleon and Menouthis? For the historian, archaeologist or even the curious traveller, there is magic buried beyond the bay, and only time will tell if the mystery will ever be solved.
-----------------------



http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
instagram:@3rdworldview
Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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Natural Mystic
Charter member
posts
Sat Mar-04-06 03:26 PM

156. "*prints articles*"
In response to Reply # 151


          

wow.
ive been informed.



thank you for those articles.

  

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AFRICAN
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158. "My pleasure"
In response to Reply # 156


  

          

If you Google I'm sure you'll find a lot more interesting ish.

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IsaIsaIsa
Charter member
posts
Sun Mar-05-06 02:38 PM

193. "RE: OoOooooooOOoOoh. Educate me."
In response to Reply # 147


          

classic case of not being big enough to sit at the table....does ALEXANDRIA sound remotely NON-EUROPEAN?



www.myspace.com/itsjay

...yeah girl

  

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afrobongo
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Sat Mar-04-06 03:05 PM

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146. "i meant why do you think it's named ALEXANDRIA"
In response to Reply # 139


          



______________________________


*TWINNING*

  

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Natural Mystic
Charter member
posts
Sat Mar-04-06 03:07 PM

148. "OoOooOh. Again."
In response to Reply # 146


          

well now i know. African just told me. lol.




it was called kush originally, right?

  

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afrobongo
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Sat Mar-04-06 02:49 PM

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133. "define great and define what they "raped""
In response to Reply # 129


          


oil, cobalt, steel, diamonds, coffee and cocoa plantations are what defines greatness ?
______________________________


*TWINNING*

  

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Natural Mystic
Charter member
posts
Sat Mar-04-06 02:52 PM

137. "great meaning"
In response to Reply # 133


          

strong, educated, somewhat unified
wasnt egypt the place to be
if you were a scholar?



raped meaning
the stealing of every natural resourse
including humans

  

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AFRICAN
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Sat Mar-04-06 02:57 PM

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142. "So was Timbactoo"
In response to Reply # 137


  

          

but this was not all of Africa.
Most African civilizations were relatively independent of one another-with a few exceptions of course-

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AFRICAN
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Sat Mar-04-06 02:35 PM

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127. "Like the man implied"
In response to Reply # 124


  

          

this was never a big happy strong place were everyone got along.
Thousands of tribes/languages is impossible to unite.
Geographical and ethnic barriers pretty much kept folks apart-except for travellers/traders/armies etc.
Colonists made borders that suited them and ended up making strange bedfellows of former neighbours.
To answer your question,no.
But..can we all live peacefully and have some form of cooperation-on the economic level,eg.EU-,remains to be seen.

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Natural Mystic
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posts
Sat Mar-04-06 02:48 PM

132. "well if africa can get to a place were things are peaceful"
In response to Reply # 127


          

and people have some form of
cooperation-on the economic level
(like you said)


then cant you build a strong nation outta that?




i would move back to africa if they did.

  

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afrobongo
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Sat Mar-04-06 02:50 PM

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135. "i think some of us have some more urgent dreams"
In response to Reply # 132


          


______________________________


*TWINNING*

  

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AFRICAN
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Sat Mar-04-06 02:56 PM

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140. "The burden of the diaspora"
In response to Reply # 135


  

          

I smell a future post one day.

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Natural Mystic
Charter member
posts
Sat Mar-04-06 02:56 PM

141. "i know some of you do. so do i. but where do you start"
In response to Reply # 135


          

to build
or REbuild
a good nation

is the question


africa has all the potential in the world
and its just...
disapearing...

  

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AFRICAN
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Sat Mar-04-06 02:59 PM

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143. "OVERTHROW THE GOVERMENT!"
In response to Reply # 141


  

          

Seriously though,there is no way I can answer such a HUGE question in a post-or ten-.
I'm also sober.
I'll let bongo field that one.

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Natural Mystic
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posts
Sat Mar-04-06 03:08 PM

150. "well isnt that the problem right now"
In response to Reply # 143


          

everyone overthrowing and coup-ing on everyone else?


*sigh*
political stability is a bitch.
lol.

  

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AFRICAN
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Sat Mar-04-06 03:14 PM

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152. " I was half joking"
In response to Reply # 150


  

          

but yeah,overthrowing without a clearcut agenda and power behind your movement is useless.

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akon
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Sat Mar-04-06 03:36 PM

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160. "you shouldn't be.."
In response to Reply # 152
Sat Mar-04-06 03:37 PM by akon

  

          

there are very few african governments right now that i would consider legit.


most of them need to be overthrown.
the only problem is that it would be pointless to replace them with the same *kind of leaders.. which is what has historically happened everytime there's been a coup

its interesting though that it seems like the era of the *coup is kinda over. the 80's were hella interesting, though.

presidents would leave their countries unsure if they would return and not find someone else has taken their place.
travelling was considered a sure fire way to lose *that job!


>but yeah,overthrowing without a clearcut agenda and power
>behind your movement is useless.
>

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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AFRICAN
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Sat Mar-04-06 03:40 PM

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161. "aka. Nimeri"
In response to Reply # 160


  

          

Dude went to Hajj,never made it to the tarmac and got overthrown.
But yeah,the current generation of dictators have become more and more entrenched.
And th U.S has it's hands full at the moment so I don't forsee as much as the 80's.
But jsut a few days ago some people were sentenced for attempting a Coup in Sudan.

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akon
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Sat Mar-04-06 04:07 PM

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165. "we need to start a post reminiscing about the '80's, fam"
In response to Reply # 161
Sat Mar-04-06 04:09 PM by akon

  

          

im sure the stories of how coups came about would be hella funny.

the '82 coup in kenya that was gon before it even started...
and those damn west africans..
everytime you turned the t.v station!

*we should do this.

>Dude went to Hajj,never made it to the tarmac and got
>overthrown.

there's a few more stories like this, mayne. it would be a field day digging them up!

>But yeah,the current generation of dictators have become more
>and more entrenched.
>And th U.S has it's hands full at the moment so I don't forsee
>as much as the 80's.
>But jsut a few days ago some people were sentenced for
>attempting a Coup in Sudan.


wait... attempting a coup?
over a goverment that's still trying to work out details on how it will function.

i'd have loved to see someone come up on some:: i am the new president.

what, he'd expect the spla to complacently agree?
the south is a ticking time bomb.
its not a job i think anyone that values their life would want.

i think those folks are suicidal

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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AFRICAN
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Sun Mar-05-06 05:38 AM

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178. "We really do."
In response to Reply # 165


  

          

>im sure the stories of how coups came about would be hella
>funny.
>
The old folks have stories mayne!
>the '82 coup in kenya that was gon before it even started...
>and those damn west africans..
>everytime you turned the t.v station!
>
>*we should do this.
>
>>Dude went to Hajj,never made it to the tarmac and got
>>overthrown.
>
>there's a few more stories like this, mayne. it would be a
>field day digging them up!
>
>>But yeah,the current generation of dictators have become
>more
>>and more entrenched.
>>And th U.S has it's hands full at the moment so I don't
>forsee
>>as much as the 80's.
>>But jsut a few days ago some people were sentenced for
>>attempting a Coup in Sudan.
>
>
>wait... attempting a coup?
>over a goverment that's still trying to work out details on
>how it will function.

Imagine that shit.
>
>i'd have loved to see someone come up on some:: i am the new
>president.
>
He'd get arrested/shot/killed in broad daylight.

>what, he'd expect the spla to complacently agree?
>the south is a ticking time bomb.
>its not a job i think anyone that values their life would
>want.
>
>i think those folks are suicidal
>

I wholeheartedly agree.
The truth is,things are really vague right now.And there is no trust whatsoever between both sides.
And the Northern opposition feels left out and wants a peice of that cake.And smaller offshoots/rivals of the SPLM are starting skirmishes with Southern Goverment.
Darfur...
The East....

It's a big timebomb like you said.

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akon
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Sun Mar-05-06 09:40 AM

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187. "*this made me laugh"
In response to Reply # 178


  

          


>>
>He'd get arrested/shot/killed in broad daylight.

actually i think they'd samuel doe him.

it's the same way i see somalia. i mean the govt was scared out their pants to hold congress on somali soil (imagine a govt trying to *rule from a neighbouring country).
i mean i dont even think the president has as of yet stepped in mogadishu.
i remember reading about them trying to decide where they would meet and folks was admitting there's certain places they *know they would be assassinated if they showed face there. i cant remember the town they finally met at. but this is another democratically elected govt.

somalia is a country that defines all kinds of sense.
i mean folks just be walking down the streets of mogadishu with all kinds of weapons.
itmust be hard trying to have any kind of argument there. im sure folks be as polite to each as they can on some, 'well if i say shit about his mama, he probably got a few more rounds of ammunition than i do! and scuffing someone's new shoes.... even if it was an accidental step on someone's toes!! straight up tension so thick you can cut with a knife. reminds me of that chappelle skit about the chicago gangs.... where dudes started beefing cause mos def stepped on a rival gangs nikes!



>
>I wholeheartedly agree.
>The truth is,things are really vague right now.And there is no
>trust whatsoever between both sides.
>And the Northern opposition feels left out and wants a peice
>of that cake.And smaller offshoots/rivals of the SPLM are
>starting skirmishes with Southern Goverment.
>Darfur...
>The East....
>
>It's a big timebomb like you said.
>

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Olu
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Sat Mar-04-06 06:25 PM

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168. "Same thing that happened to Nkrumah"
In response to Reply # 161


  

          

dude left the country to try and negotiate the vietnam war.

Halfway there he didn't have a country anymore

http://www.last.fm/user/Olu/
http://ghanageek.wordpress.com/

  

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normal35762
Member since Oct 20th 2004
13246 posts
Sat Mar-04-06 09:07 PM

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173. "Africa is NOT a nation!"
In response to Reply # 124
Sat Mar-04-06 09:07 PM by normal35762

  

          

....

  

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afrobongo
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Sat Mar-04-06 02:46 PM

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131. "the issue is the level of authoritarism..."
In response to Reply # 0


          


democracies fuck up in africa because they turn into multi-dictatorships..

and the real issue is actually LEGITIMACY and RESPONSIBILITY.



like i said before, MY dear president can't fuck up in his village cause they'll body him (physically or spiritually)
but he has no issues terrorizing the rest of the country.

why ?
RESPONSIBILITY.


so like i have 2 proposals:

- more ethnically homogenous countries

- a squad of hitmen who kills a corrupted politician here and there... just for example. that'd keep the living ones in check.

______________________________


*TWINNING*

  

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AFRICAN
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Sat Mar-04-06 03:02 PM

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144. "That is the price to pay for stability"
In response to Reply # 131


  

          

>
>democracies fuck up in africa because they turn into
>multi-dictatorships..

>and the real issue is actually LEGITIMACY and RESPONSIBILITY.
>Responsibility I concur with.
Legitimacy?
No.
How many African leaders-democraticall elected- are running around the world claiming they are the legitamte rulers of their countries?
It doesn't fly.
>

>
>like i said before, MY dear president can't fuck up in his
>village cause they'll body him (physically or spiritually)
>but he has no issues terrorizing the rest of the country.
>
>why ?
>RESPONSIBILITY.
I disagree.
It's POWER.In whatever sense of the word.They have some power over him.I doubt his personal sense of responsibility factors into this.
>
>
>so like i have 2 proposals:
>
>- more ethnically homogenous countries
>

Whoa.This is a dangerous game.

>- a squad of hitmen who kills a corrupted politician here and
>there... just for example. that'd keep the living ones in
>check.
I can clap to this.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
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afrobongo
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Sat Mar-04-06 03:08 PM

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149. "hmmmmmm"
In response to Reply # 144


          




>>like i said before, MY dear president can't fuck up in his
>>village cause they'll body him (physically or spiritually)
>>but he has no issues terrorizing the rest of the country.
>>
>>why ?
>>RESPONSIBILITY.
>I disagree.
>It's POWER.In whatever sense of the word.They have some power
>over him.I doubt his personal sense of responsibility factors
>into this.

yes it is.
he feels responsible to HIS elders and to HIS family and to HIS people.
not to the rest.
that's also probably the REST can't affect him while THEY obviously can in so many ways.

it's way harder to oppress your own people.

>>so like i have 2 proposals:
>>
>>- more ethnically homogenous countries
>>
>
>Whoa.This is a dangerous game.

shit yeah...

>>- a squad of hitmen who kills a corrupted politician here
>and
>>there... just for example. that'd keep the living ones in
>>check.
>I can clap to this.

i'm calling Dimitri and Vassili
______________________________


*TWINNING*

  

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AFRICAN
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Sat Mar-04-06 03:19 PM

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153. "I didn't know they were his family"
In response to Reply # 149


  

          


>yes it is.
>he feels responsible to HIS elders and to HIS family and to
>HIS people.
>not to the rest.
>that's also probably the REST can't affect him while THEY
>obviously can in so many ways.
>
>it's way harder to oppress your own people.
>
So you're basically saying,every people have a president from them?
This is really problematic for a country like Sudan.There is no clearcut majority either.
That's why I propose a regime that stamps out tribalism.No other way around it.

>>
>>Whoa.This is a dangerous game.
>
>shit yeah...
Fuck yeah even.Expound on this a little.
>
>>>- a squad of hitmen who kills a corrupted politician here
>>and
>>>there... just for example. that'd keep the living ones in
>>>check.
>>I can clap to this.
>
>i'm calling Dimitri and Vassilli

Why they gotta be Rusiian though?
Actually,neutral parties,so they don't get at their families or nothing.

The funny thing is,you're willing to assasinate but not take over?
It's a very thin line.
>
>
>*TWINNING*

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
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akon
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Sat Mar-04-06 03:27 PM

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157. "agreed."
In response to Reply # 149


  

          

it's why i think politicians should amongst their constituents.
it would be hard to try and pull some shit over folks that helped raised you.
and they should have no group of thugs acting as their body guards.

right now african rulers are bullies because they can always utilise the army, police squads, intelligence units and other paid mercenaries to enforce their bullshit and to act as a security blanket.

look at kenya just this week.
how is the police going to break into a press agency *with government officials support?

im pretty sure if they weren't swinging those ak's and things were on a more even ground... shit wouldn't fly
neither would stories of politicans robbing the coffers be met with such complacency

>
>
>
>>>like i said before, MY dear president can't fuck up in his
>>>village cause they'll body him (physically or spiritually)
>>>but he has no issues terrorizing the rest of the country.
>>>
>>>why ?
>>>RESPONSIBILITY.
>>I disagree.
>>It's POWER.In whatever sense of the word.They have some
>power
>>over him.I doubt his personal sense of responsibility
>factors
>>into this.
>
>yes it is.
>he feels responsible to HIS elders and to HIS family and to
>HIS people.
>not to the rest.
>that's also probably the REST can't affect him while THEY
>obviously can in so many ways.
>
>it's way harder to oppress your own people.
>
>>>so like i have 2 proposals:
>>>
>>>- more ethnically homogenous countries
>>>
>>
>>Whoa.This is a dangerous game.
>
>shit yeah...
>
>>>- a squad of hitmen who kills a corrupted politician here
>>and
>>>there... just for example. that'd keep the living ones in
>>>check.
>>I can clap to this.
>
>i'm calling Dimitri and Vassili
>______________________________
>
>
>*TWINNING*

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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AFRICAN
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Sat Mar-04-06 03:33 PM

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159. "I'd like to state for the record"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

that if I don't post in three days-I think the same applies for Bongo- I'm either dead or in detention.
*Clears history and deletes cookies*

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
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Warp and Woof
Member since Dec 05th 2002
9999 posts
Sat Mar-04-06 04:03 PM

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164. "haha, okp might pull a Daryl_Licke (sp?) and provide you with some"
In response to Reply # 159


          

top-dollar 'conjugal visits'.

Or something.

Good post though. Not that I agree with your 'proposition', but I like a post with some food for thought, without the usual side dish of flaming hate.


I'm #ffffff

  

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AFRICAN
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180. "No paypal please"
In response to Reply # 164


  

          

pass all funds to akon who will wire them to her cousin who will pass them on to my 3rd cousin who will then buy himself a herd of goats,while we rot in jail.
They don't do conjugal visits here.
Terrible.

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Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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Ice Kareem
Member since Sep 24th 2003
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Sat Mar-04-06 03:55 PM

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163. ""Democracy is the worst kind of government..."
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except for those other types we try from time to time" - Winston

  

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AFRICAN
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183. "The bulldog had his moments."
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http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
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Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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thegodcam
Member since Oct 22nd 2004
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Sat Mar-04-06 07:16 PM

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170. "plz archive"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

*******************************************************
i will not let finite disappointment undermine infinite hope
- Cory Booker

Football is a simple game; 22 men chase a ball for 90 minutes, and at the end the Germans always win
- Gary Lineker

  

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akon
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171. "not yet... i'd like some different points of view"
In response to Reply # 170


  

          

>

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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normal35762
Member since Oct 20th 2004
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Sat Mar-04-06 08:57 PM

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172. "Oh yeah. What about the missoinaries?"
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Sat Mar-04-06 08:58 PM by normal35762

  

          

What about the christian evangelists who may come to your country? What you gonna do with them?

  

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akon
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Sun Mar-05-06 12:21 AM

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175. "ship them back to where they came from."
In response to Reply # 172


  

          

> What about the christian evangelists who may come to your
>country? What you gonna do with them?

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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AFRICAN
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182. "Same as all 'foriegn' organisations"
In response to Reply # 172


  

          

of all types.
They better have a pretty good reaso to be there and a deadline for acheiving their objectives.
Proselytizing is not a priority now-or ever-.

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normal35762
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Sat Mar-04-06 09:09 PM

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174. "All those who are like save Africa and unite Africa...."
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Sat Mar-04-06 09:11 PM by normal35762

  

          

you are in for a beating. Hhahahahaha. So much repair needs to be done. Even trying to fix one country you will still be in for a beating.

  

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AFRICAN
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181. "Don't save her/she don't wanna be saved?"
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http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
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normal35762
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198. "Hhahaahah. You got all E-40 on me with that......"
In response to Reply # 181


  

          

Nah it needs to be saved it wants to be saved just gonna take a lot of work. Like is like you gotta plan and like 10 generations ahead maybe.

  

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Heat
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177. "RE: Africans are not ready for democracy."
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Isn't this along the lines of what JJ rawlings attempted/acheived in Ghana?



  

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AFRICAN
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179. "There's a lot to be learned from that lesson"
In response to Reply # 177


  

          

I think the maynes mistake was that he was forced to comprimise to keep support.

Here's a great-but long as hell- article on that whole situation;



The Legacy of J.J. Rawlings in Ghanaian Politics, 1979-2000
John L. Adedeji


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ABSTRACT

Jerry John Rawlings, Ghana's leader since the December 31, 1981 coup until the 2000 elections, was a Flight Lieutenant in the Air Force and a militant populist when he led the first coup of June 4, 1979, that overthrew the regime of Gen. Fred Akuffo, who had, in turn, deposed his predecessor, Gen. I.K. Acheampong, in a palace coup. According to Shillington (1992), Rawlings was convinced that after one year of the Akuffo regime, nothing had been changed and the coup amounted to a "waste of time," and "it was then up to him to change not only the status quo, but also put the country back on track."1

Rawlings, unlike many other leaders in Ghana's history, subsequently led the country through the difficult years of economic recovery and succeeded in giving back to Ghanaians their national pride. Chazan (1983) observes "without Rawlings' strength of character and unwavering determination, Ghana would not have survived the Economic Recovery Programs (ERPs) of the 1980s put in place by the ruling Provisional National Defence Council (PNDC)."2 Rawlings saw his leadership role to be that of a "watchdog" for ordinary people and he addressed problems of incompetence, injustice and corruption.

Rawlings also instituted a transition from authoritarianism to multi-party democracy by attempting to decentralize the functions of government from Accra to other parts of the country.3 When the PNDC established the People's Defence Committees (PDCs), a system of cooperatives, it became a unique move never before seen in Ghana's political economy.

INTRODUCTION

In theory, the process of political change, begun in 1982 by Rawlings and the PNDC, was a "bottom up" strategy to ensure the involvement of citizens in nation building. This stance resulted in the promulgation of the 1992 Constitution, the formation of political parties, the holding of elections in 1992 and 1996, and the building of a rural (including grassroots) political base in Ghana. One of the most distinctive characteristics in Ghanaian politics was that the Rawlings regime's commitment to liberal economic reform after 1983 did change its commitment to PNDC's original mandate. Before the implementation of Ghana's ERP, the Rawlings regime pursued radical economic redistribution policies by courting the support of low-income classes.

The shift in political ideology - a free market approach - would, however, lead to tension between the government and its previous allies, such as labor unions and student organizations. Consequently, in order for Rawlings' PNDC to successfully manage and maintain neo-classical economic policies, despite the aforementioned opposition, the regime had to insulate itself from powerful social groups and deal with social opposition through: (1) coercion, (2) weak institutional structure, and (3) heavy dosage of financial assistance from internal donors, who were intent on making Ghana a "show piece" in the sub-Saharan region while implementing IMF and World Bank conditionalities, as prescribed by the Structural Adjustment Programs (SAPs).

In 1992, Ghana held both presidential and parliamentary elections. Rawlings, who had initially resisted multi-party politics, was elected a democratic president and his National Democratic Congress (NDC) won an overwhelming parliamentary majority. The next elections were held in December 1996 and this marked a milestone in the fledgling democracy in Ghana; for the first time in the country's political history, an elected government actually completed its term in office, had an election contest, and secured a renewed mandate in a democratic manner. Through it all, the constant theme in Ghana's political and economic development has a lot to do with the Rawlings factor.

This article reviews the achievements (and by extension, the legacy) of J.J. Rawlings since 1983, as he entrenched the leadership role of a "watchdog" for ordinary people by addressing the problems of incompetence, injustice and corruption; instituted a transition from authoritarianism to multi-party democracy; led Ghana through the difficult years of economic recovery; and succeeded in giving back to Ghanaians their national pride.

The approach used to assess the Rawlings legacy in this article is that of a case study. According to Harry Eckstein (1992), a "single case study can have powerful, and even conclusive theoretical results," for other African nations.4 Ghana's experience as a nation lends itself to a historically sensitive method since it reveals causal consequences and shows how they relate to existing political and economic reforms.

THE TWO COUPS

The political situation in Ghana after the first coup led by FI. Lt. J.J. Rawlings on June 4, 1979 remained fluid at best. In order to bring about normalcy, a 15-member Armed Forces Revolutionary Council (AFRC) was established, Rawlings was made the Chairman and the rest of the AFRC was a careful balance of junior- and middle-rank officers of the military. One of the decisions taken by the AFRC, according to Chazan (1983), was that the parliamentary and presidential elections would proceed as planned on June 18, 1979 but that the handing over of power would be postponed for three months to October 1, 1979, to allow the AFRC to "complete its task of house cleaning."5

The new AFRC government tried to clear up corruption in all walks of life, especially the kalabule system (the "black" or "parallel" market) which had affected the cost of living and which the state suspected to be responsible for the spiraling inflation in Ghana. In fact, the shortages and low production of the past regime were the causes. Much of Rawlings' energy and activity in those hectic months, however, was bound up with talking with people whom he constantly urged to be aware that this was their revolution and it was they who were calling their past rulers to account for their past deeds, and that the future of Ghana was in their hands. Rawlings and the AFRC carried out public executions of 3 former heads of state and other senior officers without trial. These actions evoked awareness amongst Ghanaians that this regime was not like any other, and that the new leaders meant business. But these actions were to haunt the Rawlings government later.

To the amazement of most foreign observers, the elections were held on schedule under conditions of unexpected calm and fairness. On July 8, the People's National Party (PNP), led by Dr. Hilla Limann (a Nkrumah stalwart) won the elections, and then there begun a process for the transfer of power. At the end of August, Rawlings reflected that since he was confident that the "house cleaning" began by the AFRC would be continued by the Limann administration, he would be handing over power a week early on September 24, 1979. Paul Nugent (1995) reflected on the admonitions of Rawlings to Limann at the inauguration ceremony of the Third Republic with this famous quotation: "…never lose sight of the new consciousness of the Ghanaian people."6

Those words by Rawlings would form the basis for his second coming, not only as the leader of the 31 December coup, which toppled the weak and ineffective Limann administration, but also the leader of the Provisional National Defense Council (PNDC) regime, the progenitor of the dual transition program in Ghana. To inaugurate the "second coming," Rawlings stated:

"Fellow Ghanaians, as you will notice, we are not playing the national anthem. In other words, this is not a coup. I ask for nothing less than a REVOLUTION - something that will transform the social and economic order of this country. Fellow citizens, it is now left to you to decide how this country is going to go from today. We are asking for nothing more than the power to organize this country in such a way that nothing will be done from the Castle without the consent and authority of the people. In other words, the people, the farmers, the police, the soldiers, the workers you - the guardians- rich or poor, should be part of the decision-making process of this country."7

The Rawlings address, given at the Broadcasting House in Accra December 31, 1981, launched his second coming as the head of a military government in Ghana. According to Shillington (1992), one of the directives of that speech was the setting up of People's Defense Committees (PDCs) in the workplace and in every district out and village, so that the decision-making in Ghana would not continue to be the preserve of politicians, who had previously ruled Ghana under the most corrupt regime. This move was seen as a precursor for a decentralization policy in Ghana; its implementation, however, was another matter.

The 31 December coup had been expected for some time, as there were several plots emerging during the early weeks of December 1981, and many had looked to Rawlings for leadership. This time, however, Rawlings wanted to have control of the military ranks from the beginning. Events in the country almost ground to a halt because of the coup, but by January 2, 1982, life was returning to normal. Rawlings then made a second but lengthier broadcast on radio and television, in which he set out in more detail the purpose and direction of the 31 December revolution. He said:

"Good evening, fellow countrymen. The attempt to justify the action of 31 December, 1981, would not presuppose that we Ghanaians do not know and feel what had been going on since September 24, 1979. Briefly, it has been nothing short of a clear denial of our fundamental rights as a people to enjoy the wealth of our labor. This has been the most disgraceful government in the history of our country. It is the only one in recent times that criminals and such others like them have become respectable in our society. They have turned our hospitals into graveyards and our clinics into death transit camps where men, women and children die daily because of lack of drugs and basic equipment. To many of us, democracy does not just mean paper guarantees of abstract liberties. It involves, above all, food, clothing, and shelter in the absence of which life is not worth living.

"Fellow Ghanaians, the time has come for us to restructure this society in a real and meaningful democratic manner so as to ensure the involvement and active participation of the people in the decision-making process."8

With that broadcast, Rawlings achieved three things. First, he announced the creation and assumption of power by the PNDC as the governing authority in Ghana. Second, he used it to explain the kind of "real" democracy that his group envisioned for Ghana as opposed to the former experiment with democracy that provided him and his colleagues the justification for seizing power. Third, he used the speech to establish a new political system based on a model of revolutionary socialism which would ensure an active participation of the people in the decision-making process.

THE DUAL TRANSITION PROGRAM

Dual transition is a combination of economic and political development. Okome (1999), for instance, observes that the actors involved in the politics of Nigerian economic policy-making, during its dual transition program, could be classified into two main categories. One set of forces, she says, was external but relevant to the reproduction of the economy, and the other was domestic and located within the state, economy and society. The external forces include the private international creditors organized in the London Club and the official creditors organized in the Paris Club, the IMF and the World Bank. They recommend Structural Adjustment Programs (SAPs) as the "ideal solution" to the problem of balance of payments crises and indebtedness. The domestic forces, in contrast, included the various sectors, classes and associations, as well as the state elite, who are prone to the same cleavages that divide society. Okome concluded that the domestic forces are divided between the opponents and supporters of SAP.9 In Ghana, the political wrangling between the PNDC-led government of Rawlings and other political organizations almost derailed the movement toward economic reform and democracy during the 1980s and 1990s. It didn't occur. In Nigeria it did, so there may be lessons for Nigeria (and other African states) in Ghana's experience.

There is no agreement on the nature of the relationship between economic and political reforms. In the case of Ghana, it is not clear why the dual transition program embarked upon in the 1980s and early 1990s failed or succeeded. Nonetheless, the dual transition program put in place by the PNDC-led government of Rawlings would stay the course and yield some good results. Under a committee headed by Kwesi Botchwey, a Harvard-educated lawyer, the government outlined and submitted a four-year Economic Recovery Program (ERP) in 1983.

According to Leith and Lofchie (1993), among the reasons the Rawlings government chose to proceed with an official policy of structural adjustment was the fact that so many of Ghana's domestic prices, including those paid by government agencies, had already risen to reflect scarcity in the price of foreign exchange. The excess demand pressure for foreign exchange under the previous regime, they observed, was bottled up by quantitative restrictions on imports and delayed international trade payments. Furthermore, the domestic prices of most imports reflected the scarcity of foreign exchange rather than the official exchange rate. Devaluation would mean that the official local currency price of foreign exchange would rise toward the scarcity value of foreign exchange, but the scarcity value of foreign exchange would be unaffected in the short run. The de facto price adjustments that preceded official adjustments, they argued, also paved the way for an official change of policy, and devaluation would not have changed the price structure of importable goods, whose prices had already increased in the market place to reflect the diminished real value of the cedi (the Ghanaian currency).10

EFFECTS OF ECONOMIC LIBERALIZATION AND RAWLINGS' AUTHORITARIAN RULE

When the PNDC regime instituted economic stabilization policies in 1982, it was aware of its tendency to weaken support for the government, especially since IMF stabilization is a euphemism for "political and social stabilization." Conventional wisdom dictates a linkage between economic stringency and loss of social and political support; structural adjustment often requires careful political management as it involves economic costs that would benefit certain groups and hurt others. Furthermore, identifying the social groups whose interests would be hurt or promoted by liberal economic policy is a crucial calculation of political risks.

Ghana's liberal economic reform was implemented under authoritarian rule. After Rawlings took power by a military coup in 1981, no national elections were held until 1992. The presidential election was full of malpractice, including the accuracy of voters' register and the use of state resources for assisting government candidate's campaign. This led the opposition leaders to not only reject Rawlings' victory but to boycott subsequent parliamentary elections in which the candidates of opposition parties may have won many seats. Also, the PNDC was transformed into the National Democratic Congress (NDC) after the disputed presidential election in December 1992. As Jeong (1995) shows, because of the continued monopoly of power in one party, the 1992 elections have not resulted in any significant changes in government policies and its relationship to major social groups and external economic forces.11

Under structural adjustment, business groups benefited from price liberalization that generated profit margins. The influence of external interest increased under economic liberalization, including donor agencies and multi-national corporations (MNCs), especially on key sectors, since they are often viewed as representatives of foreign interests whose main objectives are to dominate less developed countries (LDCs) and entrench their monopolistic positions in Africa. On the other side of the spectrum in implementing economic liberalization, bureaucrats, manual workers, and low-income consumers were not only directly affected by structural adjustment, but they also comprised the urban consumers who would suffer from reduced purchasing power and the eventual removal of government subsidies.

The elimination of government regulations also jeopardized the careers of civil servants while giving more autonomy to producers. The tactics employed by the Rawlings government included elite consensus, repression, and centralization of power in order to maintain the authoritarian regime. In short, this represents the extremes of governance in Ghana during the 1980s and early 1990s under the authoritarian rule of Rawlings and the PNDC.

The emphasis of the ERP by the Rawlings regime was predicated on increased production in agriculture and industry, combined with reducing the budget deficit by cutting government subsidies and establishing a more efficient revenue mobilization and collection. Rawlings, in his dealings with Ghanaians, exhibited the virtues of effective leadership by espousing the notion that sound economic planning would be the only guarantee of improving the well-being of the people after years of decline. Furthermore, since the launching of the 31 December, 1981 coup, his concern has consistently been focused on the poor and the exploited and his declarations of "power to the people," is reminiscent of a leader providing what is "missing" in the body politic in Ghana, a phenomenon much sought after in many neighboring West African regimes.

THE UNEVEN IMPACT OF STRUCTURAL ADJUSTMENT PROGRAMS

The accomplishments of Rawlings during the 1980s and early 1990s reflect a period officially referred to as the "period of rebirth" in Ghana. Rawlings espoused a multi-dimensional concept of leadership in reforming the economy that embodied power, discretion and legitimacy, and his success as a leader was predicated on a two-way relationship that he had with the Ghanaian people. As a leader, he exerted influence, but he was also influenced by and accountable to the people. He attempted to be effective and legitimate, continually looking for ways to balance the competing needs and wants of the people in order to build on shared values. The political tools of Rawlings included: the establishment of National and Local Defense Committees; emphasis on economic revival; exposure of corrupt practices; enforcement of price controls and curbing of smuggling; entrenchment of ERP in Ghana; and eventually, encouraging participatory democracy and raising level of political awareness in Ghana.

While many of the above-mentioned accomplishments by the Rawlings government helped to alleviate the economic and social conditions in Ghana during this period, there were instances where some citizens experienced negative or mixed effects. Some Ghanaians saw the structural adjustment as causing hardship, especially in urban Ghana. The new macro-economic policies in Ghana also led to a retrenchment in the mainly urban and public sector but it did shift resources and productivity toward the rural areas. For instance, many urban groups bore much of the cost of the reform program while internal trade terms between rural and urban now favored rural producers.

Devaluation hindered wage-earning urbanites, simply because the wage increases were not enough to offset the price increases for imported goods. Conversely, the increase in producer prices for cocoa, other cash crop commodities and major infrastructure improvement activities by the government in rural areas, produced higher incomes for farmers. Callaghy (1990) states that the ratio of the price of a metric ton of cocoa to the urban minimum wage rose steadily at this time, thus indicating that the relative income of Ghana's rural producers became better than that of urban workers.12

While this might be true, not all the people in rural areas benefited from the Structural Adjustment Program (SAP); economic conditions of food crop farmers did not change much with higher export crop prices. Sawyer (1988) observes that economic liberalization favored especially landowners and commercial farmers who employed sharecroppers or wageworkers to maintain and harvest cocoa and other export crop trees. They benefited from higher producer prices but pursued a low-wage policy.13

During the SAP in Ghana, cocoa policies and devaluation also benefited small farmers who were engaged in cocoa production, as there were opportunities for wage laborers who were employed to undertake various agricultural activities such as planting cocoa trees, harvesting cocoa beans, weeding, and so forth. Unfortunately the SAP's emphasis on the production of export crops for market did not help many small farmers (especially women and landless wage earners) who operated at subsistence level. As elsewhere, price liberalization measures in Ghana helped small producers, traders, and craftsmen by lifting state controls on producer prices; it provided an incentive to produce for the market, but underdeveloped marketing structures limited increased market production.14 In these countries, as in Ghana, the rising cost of imported primary products, shrinking domestic demand, and restrictions on domestic credit, all converged during SAP and remained as obstacles to increased production that was needed to benefit small producers.

Another dimension to the SAP were the cuts in food subsidies, devaluation, and massive dismissal of workers in uncompetitive firms. According to Harvey (1991), urban consumers suffered from higher prices via devaluations, an end to key subsidies, introduction of user fees for medical services and education, and the imposition of neo-liberal package on state sector wage earners, such as reduction in civil service employment.15

On the other hand, the SAP was very favorable to the "comprador class," which embraced a wide variety of occupations - from local agents of foreign businesses, partners and consultants to such businesses as hotel management and tourism. The emphasis on technocratic solutions to economic problems during the SAP increased the influence of people in the higher echelons of the public service. Trade liberalization, says Harvey (1991), generates more profit for import and export merchants and higher salaries for top executives in private businesses, especially in the areas of foreign capital investment. In Ghana, the privatization measures benefited those who were able to "buy up" or "buy into" state-owned enterprises (SOEs), often at concessional prices.16

Killick (1989) states that the major gainers of such adjustment measures as devaluation were also big local and foreign capitalists who invested in export-oriented sectors, including gold mining, timber industry, and other capital-intensive raw material producing industries.17 In the views of Jonah (1989), the PNDC regime's economic programs promoted the interests of the country's external creditors and foreign companies that previously were not able to repatriate profits and dividends. Under IMF programs, the government kept up with payments of dividends and other commitments despite facing enormous debt restructuring and cuts in domestic spending.18

Overall, structural adjustment programs in Ghana favored cash crop farmers and export-oriented industries; the policy was also beneficial to rural areas where both devaluations and producer price increases helped to stimulate higher production. Conversely, the same policies brought down living standards for majority of urban dwellers, such as workers, students, civil servants and so on, who were hit hard by IMF stabilization measures, and they responded as economic interest groups with all the vigor they could muster.

INTEREST GROUP RESPONSES TO ERP

As expected, when the ERP was introduced in 1983, there were protests against it, particularly from trade unions represented by the Trade Union Congress (TUC) and student organizations represented by the National Union of Ghanaian Students (NUGS). Ironically, these groups had formed the initial base of support for the Rawlings regime in the early days of the revolution. More benignly, the business class, despite its previous hostile stance (based on the perceived government's unwillingness to protect indigenous business interest against foreign economic hegemony), exhibited caution in responding to the ERP even as they stood to gain from the results of such policies as privatization and wage increases.

As for farmers, their lack of organization worked against them and they became politically expendable; but in terms of cocoa producing regions, the government was hard pressed not to pay them more attention, especially as they formed a new source of support and legitimacy for the authoritarian regime. In this regard, there were five distinct responses to the ERP that warrants analysis: (1) labor opposition, (2) business concerns, (3) student protests, (4) criticisms by intellectuals, and (5) interests of the middle class.19

Labor Opposition: For the urban working class in Ghana, the government's pursuit of economic adjustment marked the beginning of the transition from the period of alliance to one of confrontation with the Rawlings regime. Government's actions, such as anti-labor wage increases, price hikes, and employment policies, completely alienated labor groups. Ninsin (1989) observes that in a statement on October 24, 1984, the executive board of TUC lamented "the grave and critical economic and social situation in the country" and warned against "the continued implementation of the IMF and World Bank-inspired SAP" which was having deleterious effects on workers' incomes and living conditions.20 Labor leaders were also upset at the government for not consulting with them on policy formulation. In fact, the working class was vociferous in criticizing the regime for neglecting the existing mechanisms of policy dialogue, followed by their complaints about the government's reluctance to consult with either employers or workers about the direction of the economy.

The spillover effect of this suspicion by labor leaders related to the government's relations with the IMF and the World Bank; indeed, the biggest union in Ghana, the Industrial and Commercial Workers Union (ICWU), not only accused the PNDC of not publishing its agreements with international financial institutions and concealing the cost of maintaining foreign advisors, it also demanded restricting debt service to 10 percent of foreign exchange earnings. This was a bitter pill for the PNDC to swallow. Although privatization of state-owned enterprises (SOEs) and subsequent cuts in civil service jobs angered labor unions, they were even more opposed to government's attempts to intervene in the collective bargaining with employers. To the unions, the government was overstepping its bounds in getting involved in the bargaining on wage restraints, suspension of benefits, and widespread retrenchment of workers, which they saw as significantly weakening their power.

Krause (1987) states that the workers' strongly believed, during this time, that "under the guise of economic crisis" the government was trying to eliminate the trade union movement and its class representation. Krause also observes that although Rawlings had reformed the economy since 1983 he abandoned many of his original goals and alienated major segments of the population.21 Before he took over, the national economy had been wrecked by oil price increases, low import revenues, world recession, drought, and unwise economic policies, which served as a raison d'etre for overthrowing the civilian regime of President Hilla Limann to establish an anti-bourgeois, anti-imperialist regime drawing support from radical leftists, organized labor, students, junior military officers, and ordinary citizens.

Objections to the authoritarianism of Rawlings government, which lacked structure for grassroots participation, were widespread despite rhetoric to the contrary by the PNDC. To Graham (1989), the workers during this time showed they were frustrated with the "non-recognition of the crucial role of the masses in revolutionary social transformation and therefore the absence of any proper and consistent channels of participation in the decision-making by the mass of the people through their organizations."22 The people were bitter about human rights abuses, such as harassment and false detention, and then demanded protection of civil rights while criticizing the regime for loss of revolutionary ideals that initially brought it to power, Graham concludes.

Business Concerns: The business community, in its reaction to the ERP, expressed concern about the government's lack of management of industrial-labor relations. At the 28th annual meeting of the Ghana's Employer's Association (GEA), the major concern was that "steep price increases and other social costs had driven the trade unions to exert pressure on our members to pay much higher salaries that are bound to fuel the inflationary spiral and undermine that national wages and incomes policy … We would like an assurance (that) we shall not be left alone to face the brunt of workers' wrath," according to the Economic Intelligent Unit (1988). Major complaints, concludes the report, were about the lack of input by key social groups in economic policy-making; the GEA pointed out the absence of a forum for employers, trade unions, universities and other groups to exchange views on the economy.23

In terms of harnessing local private capital, Tangri (1992) states that there were worries in the private sector about the adverse effect of some adjustment measures, including severe liquidity problems, rising interest rates, and high import costs, all caused by continued depreciation of the cedi. During the mid-1980s, massive devaluation of the currency, from 2.75 to the U.S. dollar to over 390 in 1991, generated a severe liquidity crisis; companies that depended on imported machinery and raw materials thus suffered from higher prices of imported goods. The problem was exacerbated by a tight credit policy that resulted from high interest rates designed to curb inflation.24 In observing that trade liberalization measures was not favorably accepted by the business community, Callaghy (1990) says that the owners of existing enterprises continued to call for protection from import competition.25

The president of the Association of Ghanaian Industries (AGI) stressed that the business groups want to secure some form of protection to redress "the near collapse of local industries." The EIU reported that the GEA also called upon the government to impose import quotas on foreign goods to save local industries from extinction. During the implementation of ERP, the businesses facing more severe foreign competition seemed to be unhappy with the regime's cavalier attitude that SAP generates a favorable business environment, and that trade liberalization, in its myopic view, would facilitate competitiveness of indigenous business.

Student Protests: The basic disagreement of students with the government was in education user fees and low food allowances, in other words, the removal of tuition, boarding and food subsidies. The students' argument was primarily that education reform programs sponsored by the World Bank limits this social welfare program to the children of the rich, and secondly, that the government's withdrawal of these subsidies brought extreme hardship to most students whose parents were either retrenched or simply too poor to afford college education for their children.

NUGS, the umbrella student organization in Ghana, galvanized support during its 23rd annual congress and issued complaints to the regime that "… the various aspects of the planned changes in the education system would force students in boarding schools to pay higher fees as well as other charges; and these additional charges in some cases make the boarding fee three times the minimum civil service wages." In an alliance with the students, the EIU reported that the TUC showed public support for the students' demands in its message to the NUGS Congress, by saying "as parents, we are opposed to the proposed increase in school fees and the threat to remove feeding subsidies as contained in the universities." This general discontent was reflected in a letter written by the Student Resistance Committee (SRC) at the University of Ghana and published in the West Africa magazine of August 17, 1987, which referred to the IMF "poison," that read in part:

"A massive retrenchment of workers is being carried out in both state and private enterprises without a thought for the human beings affected. The removal of government subsidies and the dramatic devaluation of the cedi have resulted in unfavorable hospital fees and rates for utilities and transport. We would continue to struggle till all the remnants of the obnoxious anti-worker and anti-student policies imposed by the IMF and World Bank puppets have been dismantled."26

Criticisms from Intellectuals: The intellectuals in Ghana also expressed their resentment of the economic policies of the regime. The University Teachers' Association of Ghana (UTAG) called upon the PNDC to develop programs that can protect mothers and children as well as promote the indigenous manufacturing sector, and that the government should actively recognize the rights of all classes of Ghanaians. When adjustment programs are criticized in developing countries, it is usually through the linkage between the negative assessment of the role of international financial institutions and their failure to deal with the ever-changing commodity prices that makes the role of the IMF and World Bank all the more suspect.

As Tsikata (1998) observes "… that role cannot be satisfactorily fulfilled unless the operational paradigm of these institutions is specifically oriented to human crisis that Africa confronts and the urgencies of achieving real transformations, not mere improvements in monetary aggregates and global macro-economic numbers."27 Stopping short of questioning the legitimacy of the government, many intellectuals had doubts about its sincerity in carrying out the necessary efforts to implement the ERP. According to Kwasi Anyemadu, an economics professor at the University of Ghana, "the economic situation in the country was not really healthy despite some improvement brought about through structural adjustment. Overall, there was a mistrust between the government and the intellectuals, who believed that the PNDC did not represent the interests of the general population, but only of those who are well connected."28

Interests of the Middle Class: Three distinct characteristics shape the middle class in Ghana. First, they have traditionally backed liberal economic policies; second, they distrust populist governments; and lastly, they are consistently opposed to oppressive political rule. During the 1980s, the majority of the Western-educated elite were frustrated with the PNDC's closed style of governance, intolerance of criticism, and the resulting inaccessibility due in part to the lack of real public debate and a perceived arrogance on the part of the authoritarian leaders. Jeffries and Thomas (1993) said the lawyers' group, which stood out among the professionals, was able not only to highlight the flaws of the PNDC, but it exposed the regime's practice of detention and other human rights abuses, such as the case of the judges who were allegedly killed by agents of the government.29 Suffice is to say that this incident and the regime's strong-arm practices bothered the middle class immensely.

When the ERP was proposed, its supporters were convinced that the middle class should be able to take advantage of the adjustment program and then engage in investment activities. Their premise was that the middle class has the capacity to understand the positive changes of economic liberalization, in part due to its resources and ability, i.e., its wealth and education. But nothing could be farther from the truth. In the views of Callaghy (1990), the Ghanaian urban middle class, who is considered the oldest and most sophisticated in Africa, was still ambivalent about the Rawlings regime, even up to the late 1980s. Because of the PNDC's previous policies that antagonized them, the middle class was not willing to show visible support for the regime. Furthermore, the middle class remembered the frontal attack by the Rawlings government on the wealthy before the adoption of the ERP and this caused hesitation on their part, at least to the extent of investing their scarce capital for an uncertain economic future.30

Bentsi-Enchill (1988) observes that the ERP was supposed to strengthen those sections of society that would benefit mostly from the capitalist development; but the indigenous private sector, which was once relatively vibrant, became moribund.31 As a result, both external donors and the government became worried about the lack of strong private sector response to the free market economic reform; Ghanaians, most regrettably, felt that the ERP benefited only foreign resident business groups such as Lebanese, Indians, Syrians, and Taiwanese. Some Europeans, who were aware of the economic liberalization program, had good management skills, resources to invest, an understanding of the free market system, and access to technology and information, also benefited immensely from the ERP. Ordinarily, these attributes are impressive to possess in a changing economic environment, but unfortunately, this group of businessmen were despised and became targets of resentment by the indigenes. Such resentments were expressed in a government newspaper reflecting growing frustration of Ghanaians with foreign businessmen: "… who flout Ghanaian laws and vaunt their conspicuous affluence … are warned that unless they take firm steps to curb the excesses of their countrymen, the anger of Ghanaians may spill over to those who exploit their countrymen."32

AUTHORITARIANISM AND THE PNDC POWER STRUGGLE IN THE RULING COALITION

In his book entitled Staying Poor: Ghana's Political Economy, 1950-1990, Douglas Rimmer observes that the radical left, including the militant sections of students, workers, soldiers as well as organized movements, such as the June Fourth Movement (JFM), the New Democratic Movement (NDM), the Kwame Nkrumah Revolutionary Guards KNRG), and the African Youth Movement (AYM), ascribed poor economic conditions in Ghana to exploitation by foreign capitalists who have been assisted by a "comprador bourgeoisie." He asserts that they prefer direct national control of economic activities rather than Ghana's integration into an international market. During the mid-1980s, the general principle of the agreements with the IMF, as orchestrated by Kwesi Botchwey, Minister of Finance under the PNDC regime, was supported by the pro-IMF bureaucracy and some in the NDM.33

However, there was simple resistance to the adjustment program from some factions in the SOEs, revolutionary organizations, or "people's power," and some grassroots political organizations that tried to undermine the state structure. Hutchful (1989) asserts that those forces were unpredictable and not easily subject to control. The state bureaucracy, he continues, attacked this problem from two fronts: (1) It looked for allies who could re-introduce "discipline" and help arrest anarchistic developments, and (2) it hoped to use the agreement with international financial institutions (IFNs) to control labor movements. The major opposition to any form of collaboration with IFNs came surprisingly from the leftists faction supported by nationalist intellectuals and workers' organizations.34 Jeong (1995) states that the opposition proposed a self-reliance policy based on popular mobilization and looked for economic assistance from specialist countries. The position of the anti-IMF faction, however, was weakened by the failure to obtain aid from alternative sources, he concludes.35

Overall, implementation of the ERP in the 1980s and the political pressure from donor agencies resulted in the disorganization and defeat of the progressive groups who were subsequently driven to the fringes of power. Aside from the fact that the PNDC survived many coup attempts after introducing the ERP, there was a lot of opposition to the regime from other organized groups that had strong ties to students and labor that vehemently denounced Rawlings and his government's close ties to IFNs. The initial response to this opposition was PNDC's repression of public discussion of adjustment measures and criticisms of the government through the use of draconian means such as outlawing or restricting strikes, stopping mass protests and demonstrations, and the use of force by the state. This lack of representative institutions was sustained until the elections for district assemblies held in 1988. Even after the 1992 national elections the atmosphere was not congenial enough to provide a suitable milieu for wider political participation. Consequently the political legitimacy of the Rawlings government, despite a competitive multiparty election, had a cloud hanging over it because of the prior repression of labor unions and lack of public discourse of government policies.

In terms of repression of popular movements, Callaghy (1990) observes that government officials were most worried that political instability following resistance from key opposition groups could have a devastating impact on the remarkably sustained efforts of the ERP.36 Workers were seen as a major concern to the PNDC regime since they could disrupt the economy. Thus, since the inception of the ERP, Rawlings had attempted with some success, to reduce the economic and political power of workers; and while often stressing the need for discipline and productivity, the government had often railed against labor unions' demands for wage increases.

The PNDC, says Graham (1989), depended on "moral exhortation" and a subtle campaign depicting some workers as "self-interested". In some speeches, Rawlings often stressed "productivity," "discipline," and "hard work," as the tools needed by Ghanaians to reverse the economic crisis. The press, under the influence of the government, praised farmers for their contribution to the nation, while at the same time urging workers to restrain their demands; when they are not being described as unproductive, says Graham.37 Opponents of popular movements were appointed to high office, and as their influence grew, there was a marked alienation of popular forces, including the working class from the regime.

Without any doubt, labor agitations and unrests were often met by severe repression, as it happened on many occasions during this period when government used military and police forces, for example, against workers in disputes at Assene factory in Accra and the striking mine workers of the State Gold Mining Corporation at Dunkwa, according to Ninsin (1989).38 Graham (1989) states that the growing gap between the PNDC regime and labor was more dramatically represented in the four-month battle that erupted in April at the Pioneer Food Company in Tema. The labor struggle and the brutal repression by the police demonstrated the regime's growing hostility to the working class, and eventually reflected the evolving changes in the government's policy toward industrial relations, he concludes.39 It would not be far-fetched to assert that the PNDC changed to its role of repressing labor movements in order for it not only to implement donors' policies, but also to ensure that industrial relations would not stand in the way of its neo-classical economic reform. This political and ultimately ideological shift exemplified the direction chosen by the PNDC regime to pursue the ERP; that is, authoritarian rule that not only repressed but stifled participation in the political system.

Shaw (1993) observes that in order for the PNDC to build a new support base it had to resort to the politics of capacity mobilization and formal representation. The dilemma for the regime, however, was that the major beneficiaries of the ERP - expatriate businessmen and cocoa farmers - proved difficult to mobilize for support. First, the success of foreign businesses in Ghana, at the supposed expense of local ones, has been embarrassing for the government especially with ERP. Second, cocoa farmers represented a weak interest group that could not be counted for any kind of political mobilization if the need arose. Consequently, the regime was at a loss when it came time to find allies to build rural support for its policies and mobilization for formal representation.40

In order to overcome the dilemmas of broadening its political base, the regime reached out to a diverse group composed of lawyers, professionals, and the 31st December Women's Movement - the most prominent women's group in Ghana, to show its inclusiveness in Ghanaian politics and decision making. The courting of local chiefs and members of the clergy was seen by many as a last ditch effort to garner rural support by the PNDC regime. Krause (1987) asserts that Rawlings saw the traditional chiefs as "instruments of stability" and "linkage with the rural population," and the only ones able to overcome populist resistance and reduce anti-government sentiment. The clergy, on the other hand, were seen as capable of swaying the beliefs of their own followers through religious injunctions and moral suasions, and they fulfilled their role to the delight of the regime.41

Another aspect of the political hurdle for the Rawlings regime was how to balance ethnicity and political and economic outcomes in Ghana. Jeffries and Thomas (1993) observe that the political economy of distribution in Ghana has been based on regional as well as class relations, and essentially, ethnicity has affected the support base of economic policies through these patronage relationships.42 In terms of the ERP, Green (1987) states that it was positively received in the main cocoa growing regions, such as Ashanti and Brong Ahafo, which had suffered from previous government policies due to over-taxation and underpayment of cocoa producers. The PNDC's economic policies have been unpopular in the Accra region, including Sekondi and Takoradi, with its large number of organized labor and business and professional groups that resisted the authoritarian regime at every opportunity, he concludes.43 To address the question of ethnic diversity for the government, Rawlings reached out to many ethnic constituencies, including the Ewes, Adangbes, Ashantis, and Brongs. Mikell (1989) says that since effective political control in Ghana necessitates broad support and policies separated from ethnic, regional or economic favoritism, Rawlings attempted to build ethnic cooperation by emphasizing the irrelevance of ethnicity in constructing a strong Ghana; and, to some extent, he succeeded in doing just that.44 In1987, in its effort to create political reconciliation, the regime introduced the Program of Action to Mitigate the Social Costs of Adjustment (PAMSCAD).

To many in Ghana, this conciliatory stance was seen as well timed, especially as the government announced decisions to increase social spending for low-income classes before the local district elections in 1988 and the presidential elections in 1992. The PAMSCAD was designed to ease resistance of workers who believed that they have shouldered a disproportionate share of the cost of adjustment. Callaghy (1990) asserts that as the regime faced difficult challenges following several monetary and institutional reforms, the program attempted to prevent worsening economic conditions of retrenched workers and the poor. The PAMSCAD, he concludes, was a result of external donors and the government to gain political support for more reforms.45 There were two reasons for this course of action. The donors reasoned that this would sustain the Ghanaian experiment at structural adjustment, setting an example for the rest of Africa where SAPs were under attack.

The PAMSCAD was an important political test, not just for the Rawlings regime, whose adherence to World Bank/IMF- backed programs caused much political grief, but also for the external donors, who attracted much criticism in Ghana, in addition to the risk of nurturing the seeds of political resentment whenever SAPs are concerned. It was no coincidence that Ghana, one of very few African countries to follow the World Bank/IMF programs closely, would be the first subject of political resentment. The PAMSCAD offered an opportunity for the government to legitimize its economic programs.46

In the 1990s, the efforts of the international donor community gradually moved toward political reform as well as economic liberalization. Jeong (1995) observes that the pressure for a pluralistic system was based on the confidence that Ghana has overcome difficulties caused by economic stabilization, and that the slow progress in institutional reform has led to recognition of the necessity for a political system that is more susceptible to World Bank/IMF policy.47

J.J. RAWLINGS: THE LEADERSHIP FACTOR

In analyzing leadership competence, Decrane (1996) said that there are four fundamental qualities that have remained constant over time: character, vision, behavior and confidence. He observes "leaders who can spark the imagination with a compelling vision of a worthwhile end that puts us beyond what is known today, and who can translate that into clear objectives, are the ones we follow."48 The difference between the success and failure of the dual transition programs, embarked upon simultaneously by Ghana and Nigeria in the early 1980s, lies not so much in the modernization or dependency theories or the bureaucratic-authoritarian model, but rather in the vision and competence of the leaders at the helm of affairs in the respective countries. While this argument might seem naïve or superficial to some, there is ample evidence to show that the role of leaders has a lot to do with the type of public policies they initiate and those they eventually implement.

Wilheim (1996) states "effective leaders have the vision required to see things differently from others. They collect and arrange the same data we all see in ways that allow them to conceive of new and unseen phenomena... A core characteristic of all effective leaders," he concludes "is the ability to have a vision of where they are trying to go and to articulate it clearly to potential followers so that they know their personal role in achieving that vision."49

In Nigeria, Gen. I.B. Babangida, who came to power in a coup in 1985, was woefully corrupt, repressive and inept in presiding over a government that was severely criticized for the manner in which it attempted to implement the transition program that often vacillated between liberalization and repression.50 Ghana, under Rawlings, was able to weather the storm despite many severe economic and political conditions. He was able to focus his efforts and make choices based on the goals, values, and ideals that he felt ought to be advanced on behalf of Ghana. He also had uncanny foresight. Greenleaf (1977) says "… foresight is the 'lead' that the leader has and once leaders lose this lead and events start to force their hand, they are leaders in name only."51

Between 1981 and 1983, Rawlings endured a lot of hostility from many Western governments because of Ghana's close links with Cuba and Libya and his fearless anti-imperialist rhetoric, which made Rawlings one of a select group of targets of the Reagan administration's foreign policy. From the historic low of 1983, when the ERP was introduced, conditions in Ghana could only improve. Much of the credit for the country's economic recovery in the years that followed must be given to the Ghanaian people, whose courage, faith, determination, acceptance and cooperation made the economic revival possible.

Harman (1998) says, "Leadership requires a values orientation that should be accepted, adopted and then translated into a vitalizing vision." The leader, he concludes, is then responsible for articulating the kind of vision that the community validates based on the leader's perception.52 Despite many failings, Rawlings espoused a vision of what Ghana ought to be to sustain Ghana's economic growth and political stability, a rare phenomenon for leaders in developing sub-Saharan states.

Rawlings' military training in the Air Force Academy gave him the opportunity to acquire a regimented, structured and disciplined disposition about life, and he was ready to lead after being in the military for a number of years. Furthermore, his compassion and concern has been focused on the exploited and poor in Ghana, and his revolutionary "power to the people" was his way of scanning for the forces of change, a rare trait in developing economies. In order to create this vision, Rawlings was well aware that he had to communicate his passion about change so others could share in it and then get them to work as a unit, contributing their best towards the achievement of that vision.

To share the vision adequately, Bennis (1989), in his work entitled On Becoming a Leader, says "leaders are people who are able to express themselves fully, know what they want, why they want it, and how to communicate what they to others in order to gain their cooperation and support."53 Lastly, to marshal action, Kouzes and Posner (1996), observe "a leader must have a sense of direction and a vision for the future, and it is the capacity to paint an uplifting and ennobling picture of the future that assures people of the possibilities and images of great potential."54

From his training days in the Air Force academy, leading the first coup in 1979 and head of the AFRC, handing over power to an elected president, working behind the scenes to ensure the success of democracy, and coming back to lead the 31 December revolution, Rawlings was able to marshal actions to create and sustain the vision of a better society for the Ghanaian people. Many Ghanaians equally believe that Rawlings is a man of strong emotions, convictions and driven by a passion for moral justice, intellect and integrity. On the intellectual front, they maintain that he is the first leader of charisma and stature since Nkrumah (in his early days). Many in Ghana believe that Rawlings' achievements in the political and economic realm were possible only because of his tenacity, honesty, clear objectives and sense of direction.

During the 1990s, Ghana was transformed from a country saddled with economic depression and political instability into a politically aware and economically prudent nation-state, but there was still a lot to be done. According to Herbst (1993), Ghana needed to adhere to the ERP, sustain the development challenges and entrench the political system. After a decade of adhering to the economic reforms, as prescribed by the IMF and the World Bank, in which Ghana was used as a test case for structural adjustment in Africa, he observes, there was the potential for economic renewal under the guidance and vision of Rawlings and his ruling party, the National Democratic Congress (NDC).55 While others disagreed with this conclusion, events in Ghana have shown that the opposition that could have challenged Rawlings was weak at best.

On balance, during the 1990s, Rawlings focused on the political essentials underlying effective growth and de-emphasized redistributive issues and neo-imperialism stressed by the critics of structural adjustment. Governing problems, observe Vinzant and Crothers (1995), represent the most pressing dilemmas facing most societies because the governance system is beset with problems of paralysis, public mistrust, and "wicked" public policy issues.56 The Ghanaian government, at the time, had to seek reasons for the striking difference between Ghana and the Asian Tiger countries of South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan and Hong Kong.

The Asian Tigers' success story, states Chibber (1991), lies partly in the interaction between the public and private sectors; the liberalization of trade and barriers (including removal of tariffs, administered prices, etc.); and the existence of real exchange rates. The Ghanaian government saw the need to have clear roles in its dealings with the private sector, concludes Chibber, and that the relationship was expected to transcend any suspicions by the public and private sectors, especially on the part of government technocrats who harbored acrimonious feelings against their "money-grabbing" counterparts in the private sector.57 Rawlings also learnt from the fiscal prudence of the Asian Tigers, enough to prompt him to propose spending programs toward promoting and not competing with the private sector. According to Hussain (1994), the revolutionary environment for the private sector was enhanced through a low corporate tax structure, import duty exemptions on capital equipment, and liberalization of trade and foreign payment arrangements to help sustain the Ghanaian economy.58

DEMOCRACY IN GHANA FROM THE 1996 TO THE 2000 ELECTIONS

When the 1996 elections were completed, there was a clear indication that the result was taking hold. Onadipe (1997) states, " … for the first time in its political history, a civilian administration was able to complete its term in office and also secure a renewed mandate democratically. The opposition also accepted the results." With this political development, Ghana, to many observers in the international community, seemed to have left the ranks of African countries saddened by military coups and repressive dictatorships. Through this democratic process, Ghana ascended to the group of civilized, responsible and representative governments, or more aptly, a workable democratic experiment in Africa. Onadipe asserts, "the simple fact that the incumbent Rawlings administration allowed the electoral process to move on with the opposition adequately represented, speaks volumes of how far political development has come in Ghana."59

During the four years after the 1992 elections, democratic rule was not disrupted and the ruling National Democratic Congress (NDC), which Rawlings led along with its parliamentary majority, governed the country with relative peace and less political and social rancor. Unfortunately, this same political sentiment cannot be said for neighboring Nigeria, where the despotic rule of Gen. I.B. Babangida was just coming to an end, after he cancelled the 'freest and fairest' election the country has ever experienced, and the equally ruthless regime of Gen. Sani Abacha was coming to life. Furthermore, in 1996, Rawlings, with his second mandate and visionary stance, was poised to lead his country through another four years of political compromise and then serve out his two consecutive terms as president and arrange for the next round of elections in the year 2000. In spite of this sentiment, there was still a mystique about Rawlings; the charismatic leader who has had the unique opportunity to effectively lead his nation and accomplished so much over a nineteen-year period.

Onadipe (1997) observes, "though Rawlings' victory in 1996 was not a foregone conclusion despite the incumbency factor and the limitless resources at his disposal, such as uninterrupted media coverage, use of government facilities and transportation for his campaign, his popularity was probably the most crucial factor." Rawlings courted voters through populist projects, such as rebuilding Ghana's crumbling infrastructures including roads, hospitals, and electricity for rural areas. This should be an excellent case study for Africa's growing ranks of democratic leaders, he concludes.60 Rawlings' victory left no obvious aftertaste because his lengthy stay at the top was an advantage. In the first place, the younger voters, who had known him as head of state, seem impressed enough to vote for him rather than an unknown in the opposition. Additionally, Rawlings enjoyed a connection with younger Ghanaians who saw him not only as one of them in terms of his age (some call him JJ or Jerry), but also because of his imposing figure and dashing looks which was complemented by well-tailored suits and traditional garbs.

During the 1996 campaigns, the NDC focused on rural areas; the strategy paid off as the ruling party won ten out of eleven regional capitals, mostly in the rural areas where most Ghanaians live. Rawlings had strategically targeted rural areas for development; he provided roads, water, electricity, and other facilities that usually encourage urban drift and he was simply rewarded with a second term. The issue of providing rural services helped to decide the election and future of Ghana for the next four years in the second and final term of Rawlings at the helm of affairs. The NDC ran a campaign slogan: "Let there be light for rural people, for they are Ghanaians too!"

The opposition, sensing that the charisma of Rawlings was too big for them to impugn, resorted to highlighting the dismal economic status of the country. They pointed to the rate of economic growth that since September 1992 had slowed considerably with a corresponding sharp increase in the inflation rate and significant reduction in the standard of living. The opposition accused Rawlings of insensitivity especially in view of the supposed ostentatious living style of the presidential household. The outcome of the election was a testimony to the awe and respect with which Ghanaians treated Rawlings, and in the waning years of his stewardship, his concern shifted to the person who would carry on the 'revolution' and also keep the party together for the 2000 elections.

In the aftermath of the 1996 elections, in which Rawlings was elected to a second and final term as president, Ghanaians were demanding reconciliation and change. National reconciliation became essential, says Onadipe (1997), because the people believed that Rawlings had alienated himself from the general populace through the execution of many politicians and former leaders, the imprisonment of opposition figures, and confiscation of people's property.61 In a newspaper interview with the Daily Graphic, of January 21, 1997, Kabrah Blay-Amihere, the Ghanaian president of the West Africa Journalist Association, declared: "Rawlings' AFRC and the PNDC created many wounds and polarized the society. Since he became president in 1992, he never met the opposition or the private press … there is need to need build bridges. All Ghanaians should be made to feel they belong to Ghana."62

POSTSCRIPT

The result of the December 2000 elections gave John Kufour of the New Patriotic Party (NPP) victory over Rawlings' National Democratic Congress (NDC) in a run-off election. This prompted the BBC "Talking Point" program of December 9, 2000 to ask the questions: "Has Ghana reached political maturity?" and if so, "Has the election set a good example for the rest of Africa?" The program not only elicited wide-ranging comments from many respondents, but they provided many interesting opinions.

Many Ghanaian respondents expressed their joy and pride that the election was peaceful, and that the rest of the world, especially the West, never believed that an African country could hold a democratic election without a hitch. Their comments exemplified the joy of Africans and national pride of Ghanaians, as the nation made a transition toward democratic rule.

On December 18, 2000, while participating in a BBC Special Political Forum in the aftermath of the Ghanaian elections, Professor Gyimah Boadi and Audrey Gadzekpo responded to general questions regarding the future of Ghana and the possibility of Rawlings returning to rule. Gadzekpo's response was mostly esoteric in nature: "In view of Rawlings' young age as a former head of state (he is 54 years old), energetic and with lots of ideas, Ghanaians would have to deliberate on the means of taking care of him in a manner that would 'dissuade' him from coming back." He also pointed that during the campaign President Kufour responded to the question of whether Rawlings could be tempted to come back by stating, "… as a former statesman, Rawlings would be called upon from time to time to do statesmanlike services, provided he will keep within the bounds of law."

It is my argument, however, that based on the charisma and achievements of Rawlings, the populist i

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Heat
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Sun Mar-05-06 08:30 AM

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184. "RE: There's a lot to be learned from that lesson"
In response to Reply # 179


  

          

In a region cursed by political turmoil in Ghana you have a country that has had 25 years of political stability and a growing economy.

However, ask Ghanaians on their opinions of Rawlings and a sizeable portion would say he was a corrupt dictator (members of my family included) and some with valid reason.

I feel your position has some validity however African economies are usually dependant on the west; seizing power, imprisoning/executing potential political rivals none of these actions likely to win friends in the US or most of the rest of the world for that matter. In the early 80's atleast Rawlings had the USSR as a potential fall back.

Democracy or no democracy we WILL find our way eventually though. Consider in the last 5-600yrs our people have been colonised, enslaved, stripped of their religion, dignity, self belief, language, natural resources, etc.

After which, most Africans have had less than 50 years of self rule in nations that were carved up with complete disregard for the natural borders that maintained the stability we crave for now.

I do not despair, because in the grand scheme of human history I feel 500 years IS a longtime; 50 however relatively speaking is not!




  

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akon
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Sun Mar-05-06 09:54 AM

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188. "*copy, paste, print..."
In response to Reply # 179
Sun Mar-05-06 10:33 AM by akon

  

          

i read the first few paragraphs.... its hard for me to read long articles on comp... but this is mos definitely really interesting.
i wonder why i didn't know this much about rawlings. im gonna put to task my african politics and econ prof. she did a good job but i cant believe she ignored rawlings in her course structure. *this is the kind of shit as africans we need to read up on.

it would be interesting to talk about how the fall of the soviet union affected africa. i mean most people dont know about how communism in a sense *aided most of the fight for independence movements (starting with *that cuban in the congo, namibia, and the other countries that russia aided, financially.... ) and how important it was to have an alternate superpower.... nowadays everyone gotta play by the u.s's tune (this might not be for *too much longer, though) and its much easier to *isolate a country than it was before when the two superpowers courted each other's enemies.

i guess this has another side to it, though.
the political instability that resulted in rogues like the u.s implanting dicators in order to gain further control......

let me think about this a lil bit more.
i think bongo is better versed on this....
i'd like to hear his intellectual input.

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Olu
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Sun Mar-05-06 11:44 AM

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189. "Tried, yes at least in the beginning"
In response to Reply # 177


  

          

he was only that way for a short while though before he became a standard military dictator

http://www.last.fm/user/Olu/
http://ghanageek.wordpress.com/

  

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Heat
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Sun Mar-05-06 12:47 PM

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190. "RE: Tried, yes at least in the beginning"
In response to Reply # 189


  

          

Considering the state of the country in 1981 do you feel he had an overall negative or positive impact on the country over his 19yr tenure?

  

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Olu
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Mon Mar-06-06 08:48 PM

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235. "hmm, that's a complex question"
In response to Reply # 190


  

          

Overall I'd have to say no though.

Granted, compared to other african dictators he wasn't as bad as a bunch of them but I think its a massive overstatement to credit him solely for Ghana's stability in that time.

He did some good things but also held back the country by quite a bit

http://www.last.fm/user/Olu/
http://ghanageek.wordpress.com/

  

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tohunga
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Sun Mar-05-06 08:35 AM

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185. "..and GD continues to outplay the Activist board at it's own game."
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

nice post
i'll have a read but won't contribute
brains not working too well today

_________________________
http://www.paulwalsh.co.nz
art.design.comics.blog.etc

  

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AFRICAN
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Mon Mar-06-06 03:07 AM

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207. "Thanks for reading"
In response to Reply # 185


  

          

any contribution is welcome.

*Pours out Aragi for Activist*

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
instagram:@3rdworldview
Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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Abdurrashid
Member since Jun 20th 2002
15939 posts
Sun Mar-05-06 01:37 PM

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191. "NOW: Lets discuss the recent events in Kenya: govt raiding Media offices"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          


I mean how are you going to have a democracy if you don't have freedom of Press? And its even in the constitution. The people are screaming bloody murder..some MP's are crying foul....and as usual, no word from Kibaki or his even an audio clip of his stance on the matter....

Here's the story: http://allafrica.com/stories/200603030966.html

Ridiculous...


"The camel never sees its own hump but that of its brothers is always before its eyes"- N.African proverb

***The OKMuhajideen***
***I've finally conformed!!! http://www.myspace.com/itstheprofessor

  

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akon
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Sun Mar-05-06 02:38 PM

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192. "A government that has gone mad"
In response to Reply # 191


  

          

Story by MUTUMA MATHIU
Publication Date: 3/5/2006

The call came at 4 am. "Come to the office, hooded gunmen have attacked The Standard, switched off KTN and burnt the paper."

The night was cold, wet and dark, the kind of night you see in horror movies, when bad things happen. And as I drove past State House, Nairobi, I got the same feeling I had on September 11, 2001, the day terrorists attacked America.

The feeling that something in the fundamental structure of the world had shifted, that the world had changed irrevocably. I imagined President Kibaki having a peaceful night. The rest of the city seemed awake and restless, everyone I called was up and deeply troubled.

I sat in the office quietly waiting for the sun to come up, looking out of the window at this country which I love so much. The last vestiges of faith and trust I had in Mr Kibaki and his government dissipated as I sat there. But I didn't feel hopeless and empty. The knot of cold fury at the pit of my stomach radiated energy and belligerence.

Abusing power

What did we ever do to deserve this kind of government? Why on earth is it that every lot we elect comes to office with the express purpose of stealing and abusing power? Does every Kenyan aspire to be a dictator? Are there no decent men and women, confident enough to serve their country, strong enough to respect the power they have been given by the people?

When a government turns loose hooded men on the population, when a government throws out the law, it ceases being a government and becomes an enemy of the people, an imposition willing to have its criminal way irrespective of the will of the people.

In December 2002, Kenyans gave President Kibaki their country to govern and to lead. Kenyans had fought for a decade for a more open, cleaner and wholesome society. Huge gains had been achieved in every sphere: Political, constitutional and social.

One night of madness wiped all that away. As the President ponders his next course of action – perhaps landing hooded men on the roof of the National Assembly, why stop at the media? – he should know he has lost Kenyans.

They don't trust him with their money, Anglo Leasing has taught them that this regime is capable of stealing tax money in the billions.

They don't trust him to protect the rule of law and their property and rights: There are employees of The Standard Group who spent a night of absolute terror at the mercy of masked gunmen. It is perhaps only by good fortune that none was killed. If Mr Kibaki is unable or unwilling to govern and to lead, then there ought to be no hesitation in handing the country back to the people who elected him. There has been no government and no leadership – but lawlessness, subversion of civilised society and state-instigated terror – in the events of the last week.

The government has simply gone mad. This is not just because of its propensity for political and diplomatic suicide, but more so because of the deformed logic that seems to inform its criminal behaviour.

What in the world is wrong with the President meeting an honourable Member of Parliament? Had anyone reported that the President had been in secret conference with Osama bin Laden or some other undesirable character where association can be inferred to imply criminality, then it could be presumed that the report was defamatory. But even defamation does not invite a night invasion by masked goons.

I don't think the government's criminal actions against the media was a punishment or revenge for an inaccurate story; rather, the story was merely an excuse, an opportunity to send a brutal message not just to the media but to the opposition and Kenyans, in general.

The media have reported the awful drama, shame, incompetence and venality that has sometimes characterised certain individuals in this regime. Having been caught and exposed, the regime is naturally angry.

But even more important is fear by those who have a lot to hide. Frightened that they too would be exposed, shamed and prosecuted at some point, it is not beyond belief that they cobbled together this suicidal plan to cow Kenyans.

There has always been something incompetent, a certain lack of intellectual dexterity in the way this government handles issues. Its capacity to read a situation, process and render an effective response has been quite unimpressive.

Suicidal plan

Doesn't Security minister John Michuki know that we don't intimidate easily? Does he imagine that he is above the law? I get the feeling that the government wanted to be able to deny that it had anything to do with this little bit of vandalism. But even that it couldn't achieve with any level of efficiency. The subsequent justification was even more telling than the crimes themselves. Rattling a snake? An operation to gather evidence? If Mr Kibaki doesn't sack and prosecute anyone, it could only mean that he ordered these criminal activities.

Finally, if the government thought that by resorting to the antics of Manuel Antonio Noriega it would appear "strong," decisive and "serious," that objective has fallen flat on its face. One night of madness has exposed it for what it is: A desperate regime ,striking out in impotent fury.

Rattling a snake? I wonder whether it is Kenyans, or the government, that did that.








>I mean how are you going to have a democracy if you don't have
>freedom of Press? And its even in the constitution. The people
>are screaming bloody murder..some MP's are crying foul....and
>as usual, no word from Kibaki or his even an audio clip of his
>stance on the matter....
>
>Here's the story:
>http://allafrica.com/stories/200603030966.html
>
>Ridiculous...
>
>
>"The camel never sees its own hump but that of its brothers is
>always before its eyes"- N.African proverb
>
>***The OKMuhajideen***
>***I've finally conformed!!!
>http://www.myspace.com/itstheprofessor

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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akon
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Sun Mar-05-06 02:45 PM

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194. ""if you rattle a snake, expect to be bitten""
In response to Reply # 192


  

          

Publication Date: 3/5/2006

National Security minister John Michuki is trying very hard to back up his claim that that most brazen assault on the media since independence was in the interests of national security.

He is saying that the raid on the Standard newspapers and KTN premises - conducted by a shadowy police unit operating more like a private militia - had uncovered evidence of material that posed a threat to national security. Mr Michuki, however, was extremely economical with details on exactly what had been found. The most he could offer was that it was still being analysed.

This, to us, sounds like a desperate attempt to manufacture justification for a raid which has done incalculable harm to a government that was elected on a human rights and rule of law platform. The minister stated with his own mouth that anyone who provokes a snake must expect to be bitten.

We presume he meant that the Standard provoked the snake. So, anything else about alleged threats to state security can only be an afterthought. What happened was a blatant display of the coercive power of a state machinery gone mad.

That raid intended nothing more other than to teach a newspaper group deemed hostile to the Government a brutal lesson that the State, as so succinctly stated by a former Cabinet minister, has the ultimate monopoly on violence.

Such demonstrations of raw naked power started with the alternative press. They have now been extended to the mainstream. And as long as violence remains an instrument of governance, no one is safe.

The militia assembled for such primitive pursuits will not sit back and pat itself on the back for a job well done. From newspapers, it could move on to other institutions, and ultimately to individuals.

Any security organ misused to fight what could be simple political wars, often takes itself to be immune to any legal sanctions. And this ultimately leads to a state of anarchy. We do not want to go down that dangerous path.

The Government must offer a proper explanation for that dark day in our history. And if there is none, it must concede that it made a terrible mistake, punish those responsible and offer the necessary apologies and compensation.



.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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akon
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Sun Mar-05-06 02:47 PM

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195. "State's proverbial hammer response"
In response to Reply # 194


  

          

Story by GITAU WARIGI
Publication Date: 3/5/2006

Before, the rap on this government has been about its trademark bungling, and its propensity to shoot itself in the foot over silly issues. Now, a more ugly face has come on display. We thought we were dealing merely with blunderers. It's frightful to realise they are rattlesnakes.

I am not persuaded that the stupid display of venom against the Standard is purely because of a disputed report about an alleged secret meeting between the President and an Opposition politician. That doesn't quite jell. Does this government have an unstated problem with that media company, maybe its ownership? Instead of hiding behind ridiculous excuses about "national security," maybe it's time one of the rattlesnakes told us why they routinely get so worked up over that newspaper, even when its contents do not warrant the bile.

I listened to Information Minister Mutahi Kagwe on TV when he first reacted to the police raid, and I formed the opinion that he was not privy to this madness. That was before other serpents sprung up and hissed, and immediately it became clear that poor Mr Kagwe had been put in a box. I don't know for sure, but I suspect the minister was left feeling betrayed in more ways than one.

It is not only Mr Kagwe who was put in a nasty corner. I can imagine Police Commissioner Mohammed Hussein Ali was not amused in the least to hear of police units that are supposed to answer to him being engaged in night-time adventures that from all appearances were not sanctioned by him. All the more infuriating that these should be carried out when he was actually out of the country.

Another thing. One could not fail to notice the loud silence from the normally voluble Alfred Mutua, the government spokesman. The President can be excused for doing what he does best - keeping mute like the Sphinx. But the question must be asked: was he informed beforehand? The possibility that he wasn't is even more troubling. Could actions that carry such grave ramifications have been authorised from somewhere we don't know?

One thing was clear. This was not simply a bumbling operation by drunken officers. It was planned and deliberately executed. Could there be a cabal in government that has decided to throw all rationality out of the window and resort to bareknuckles in the name of combating imagined enemies of the State? Lately, dark mutterings by State functionaries about there being "too much freedom" in the country have been on the increase. Soon, somebody in those circles is going to learn that such displays as we saw on Thursday are a suicidal way to demonstrate that the leadership has a backbone.

And if the intention was to send a message, violent as it were, to the Standard's owners, or its Board of Directors ... well ... that has been received loud and clear by everybody, even those it was not intended for. You can count the Kenyan voter right in there. When somebody in this government once told one Daniel arap Moi to sit back and watch how a government is run, surely this could not have been what they had in mind.

I am cautious about reading conspiracies in everything. But I can't help wondering how Thursday's deplorable drama beautifully served to divert minds from other matters, such as the corruption stories that were popping up everywhere like mushrooms.

Otherwise, the whole operation simply didn't make sense - at all. So what if a newspaper issues a contentious report about the President meeting an opponent? We have read worse, and not always from the yellow press. In any case what's the big deal about such a meeting, even if it were true? Only in Kenya could the story of one Martin Shikuku being invited for ugali at a certain address once upon a time become big news.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nairobi is awash with extremely racy publications. If as a public figure you took everything you read in the street about yourself seriously, you would soon enough succumb to a heart attack. I recall being regaled by one piece about Prof George Saitoti which declared, completely out of the blue, that he had collapsed in his bathroom in 1998 after a phone call informed him he was no longer vice-president.

And there was that other knocker about a prominent MP who is now in Narc who presumably was having marital problems because he always peed in bed. But what really made my ribs crack was one story about an esteemed Archbishop of a mainstream Christian denomination who it was reported had allegedly contracted a venereal disease.



.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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akon
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Sun Mar-05-06 02:52 PM

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196. "What options are there for the Government?"
In response to Reply # 195


  

          

Why should the Government, which has the monopoly of power – even to license the media – react in such an unexpected way to a newspaper report? The reaction made the fight between the Government and the Press appear to be one between brain and brawn. Such wars have been fought in the past, and it is not hard to guess who will win this one.

What options does the Government have now that this has happened? Raiding the newspaper and the TV station has raised its profile. People who never bothered to read it may now start doing so; they want to know what it is that keeps government employees awake at night and why they should adopt the Rambo mentality.

With more readers, the Standard may now have a wider reach, bigger advertising revenue and, needless to say, a wider political audience.

The Government has a number of options. It may use the Powell doctrine, after former US secretary of State Colin Powell, that if you must use power, you must use it overwhelmingly, leaving no chance for failure.

Some analysts suggest that the doctrine was an attempt to exorcise the ghost of Vietnam. The first Gulf War did just that.

Every now and again, the Narc Government has proved unwilling to do that, instead making policy reverses, depending on the people's reaction. But this is not necessarily a sign of weakness. But why disable a press that gets back into operation in only a few hours? This is either lack of seriousness or a penchant for bad jokes. From the uproar over the raid, the approach is a failure, although President Moi used it with some success.

The second approach is to befriend the media – co-opt them. But this is a difficult proposition because the Government has already burnt too many bridges. Another reason is that the media houses are independent; they get their own revenue and rely on their own efforts. It is extremely hard to befriend a rich person unless you are rich yourself. The approach may not work also because the Press has almost nothing to gain from the Government, and a lot to lose if it flirted with it. Ask the Kanu newspapers.

Traditionally, support for the Government by intellectuals is often seen as a sign of lack of sophistication and of cowardice. With the drifting of many intellectuals to the Orange Democratic Movement, the Government appears to be left with only brute force.

So the Government may try the Uganda approach in which the ruling National Resistance Movement has a widely read newspaper. But even this is tricky as readers will see through the game plan.

It may also "dilute" the current readership by licensing more newspapers. But nothing works against that than customer loyalty. Reading newspapers is very much like smoking – once you get addicted to a brand, it is very difficult to change to another.

How about using the lawcourts? The snag is that cases may drag on and on, and the effect many not be as expected. It is not hard to see why the Government probably decided to use the slash-and-burn approach.

But the most sure-fire approach will cost the Government nothing, and there will be little pain, if any. Let it have nothing to hide – tell the truth. After all, don't most the government officials who go to church know that "truth will set you free?"

The problem, however, is that serikali (Government) and siri kali (top secret) will continue to rhyme for a long time to come. Were the Government open and fair in all its deals – procurement, employment or promotions – the media would have very little to grouse about. In fact, in countries where governments are clean, the highest circulation newspapers are often tabloids.

But are we likely to have such a government any time soon? Maybe – if we have less false starts. We tried it at independence and after the introduction of political pluralism in the early 1990s, and we are still trying. But we should not give up. Probably if we yelled at the past governments, they would be more open and progressive. There is still hope; we may never have a prefect government, but we can definitely have a better government.

Americans or Britons rarely yell at their governments the way we do. Most probably they yelled them into line a long time ago. A long list of cases involving press freedom testifies to this.

We must start seeing our political leaders as our servants, not our masters. In fact, it is the distance they keep from the "small man" that makes exposes on their political, marital or even business behaviour so juicy.

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Abdurrashid
Member since Jun 20th 2002
15939 posts
Mon Mar-06-06 03:18 AM

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210. "Interesting enough, the gov't owns Kenyan Times but not The Standard"
In response to Reply # 196


  

          

its an independent paper....and just strong armed them...




"The camel never sees its own hump but that of its brothers is always before its eyes"- N.African proverb

***The OKMuhajideen***
***I've finally conformed!!! http://www.myspace.com/itstheprofessor

  

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Olu
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Mon Mar-06-06 12:59 AM

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202. "He just embarassed himself again"
In response to Reply # 191


  

          

and African politics in the process.

Granted, its already rolling in the mud. Still......

http://www.last.fm/user/Olu/
http://ghanageek.wordpress.com/

  

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Abdurrashid
Member since Jun 20th 2002
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Mon Mar-06-06 03:16 AM

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209. "Uhhhhh...Gain!!!! *shakes head*"
In response to Reply # 202


  

          


"The camel never sees its own hump but that of its brothers is always before its eyes"- N.African proverb

***The OKMuhajideen***
***I've finally conformed!!! http://www.myspace.com/itstheprofessor

  

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akon
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Mon Mar-06-06 01:08 PM

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222. "March 6th: Ghana's independence day, no??"
In response to Reply # 202


  

          

>and African politics in the process.
>
>Granted, its already rolling in the mud. Still......

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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Olu
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Mon Mar-06-06 01:37 PM

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223. "yup. 49 years old"
In response to Reply # 222


  

          

we seem to be doing ok. thankfully

http://www.last.fm/user/Olu/
http://ghanageek.wordpress.com/

  

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AFRICAN
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Mon Mar-06-06 03:04 AM

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205. "I swear they shut down a paper every day here"
In response to Reply # 191


  

          

Some papers figured they would save themselves the trouble and send a copy of potentially 'controversial' editorials to the goerment for editing before they get published.
I don't blame them though,the press can facilitate a goverments downfall.If I was clinging to power I'd do the same.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
instagram:@3rdworldview
Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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akon
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Tue Mar-07-06 10:13 AM

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241. "actually, do lets talk about this.."
In response to Reply # 191


  

          

The first sign of a dictatorship usually is the curtailing of freedom of speech.
Usually this includes politicians and the common mwananchi but its more so the press.
In most African nations, in the late 80’s, early 90’s, a journalists job was always wrought with danger and tension. Cause they were always being thrown into jail for being submissive or whatever else. And godforbid if you are the editor of a news journal- especially the independent media.

For some reason kibaki seems to think this is the 80’s.
I mean he was vice president under moi for about 10 years,
and this was during moi’s height as a dictator.
The past year all we have been hearing about in the media is how corruption is embedded in every sector of his government.
We’ve seen members of parliament pass bills to double, triple their salaries, get car allowances (to buy benzes- nothing but the best for public officials),
There’s the anglo-leasing scandal..(im going to post these in a few)
There have been a few high level resignations and calls for resignations.

I think right now what we are witnessing is a govt in fear.
So its doing what it does well… strike.

Or as the minister for national security said: if you rattle a snake, expect to be bitten.

The snakes are rattling.




>
>"The camel never sees its own hump but that of its brothers is
>always before its eyes"- N.African proverb
>
>***The OKMuhajideen***
>***I've finally conformed!!!
>http://www.myspace.com/itstheprofessor

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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danthrax
Member since Mar 31st 2003
3719 posts
Mon Mar-06-06 02:19 AM

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203. "i sympathize, but that's only in theory"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

where you gonna find a junta who's going to want to do anything other than hold onto power as long as they can?

if you find one, heck, you can put them in charge over here. sounds pretty good in theory.

  

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AFRICAN
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Mon Mar-06-06 02:59 AM

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204. "That is the crucial/pivotal/focal/ whathaveyou, point in this issue."
In response to Reply # 203


  

          

Most of the previous discussion was actually throwing the idea out there and seeing opposing views.
Realistically,this 'junta' cannot be composed of primarily military people.Too much ego and not enough expertise.
Now,this is not to say that the military won't be the force behind this goverment,but they definitely won't be the brains.
You'd need academics/technocrats/ and dedicated people of all types.
The military's job is to help get hold of and retain,power.
This is just an undeveloped theory of course,it needs a looooooooot more development/change etc. to be practical.
And if this were to be successfully implemented in one country,I can see it starting a trend.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
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Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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les_fleurs
Member since Aug 23rd 2003
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Mon Mar-06-06 11:51 AM

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220. "I couldn't find your post on Africa &amp; China, but I thought I'd post ..."
In response to Reply # 0
Mon Mar-06-06 11:52 AM by les_fleurs

          

After all this might be relevant to the discussion since we've only discussed "internal" governance. This might give us elements to think about

'We Love China'
http://www.granta.com/extracts/2616


An African revolution that needs noticing: 'The Chinese are the most voracious capitalists on the continent and trade between China and Africa is doubling every year.'

I arrived in Sierra Leone in June 2005, at the height of the rainy season. Mud washed down the pot-holed streets of the capital, Freetown, and knots of beggars, some without arms or legs, huddled under trees and against battered shop-fronts. It was a fortnight before the G8 summit in Gleneagles, Scotland, where Bob Geldof and Bono were to celebrate a huge increase in aid to Africa, but in the Bintumani Hotel no-one spoke of this. Gusts of rain-filled wind blew through the hotel's porch to set the large red lanterns swinging. Cardboard cut-outs of Chinese children in traditional dress had been stuck on the windows. The management had just celebrated Chinese New Year.

It was my first visit to Sierra Leone in more than twenty years' reporting from Africa, and I was to make a film not about the normal issues covered by British television—orphans, war victims, corruption—but about something few outside Africa seemed to have noticed: the rapidly growing influence of China in the continent.

The hotel's manager, Yang Zhou, was pleased to show me round, helped by his spiky-haired young translator who introduced himself as Maxwell. While Chinese businessmen stick to their real names, Chinese translators in Sierra Leone give themselves English names to ease communication with Africans and visiting Europeans.

The Beijing Urban Construction Group, which is owned by the Chinese government, started to rebuild the Bintumani Hotel even before Sierra Leone's civil war ended in 2002. The wall opposite the manager's office had been decorated with glossy photographs of China's economic progress: one showed the Three Gorges Dam, another a group of pretty young Chinese women throwing their mortar boards in the air to celebrate graduation. The captions were in Chinese and English, as was the sign for the toilet which featured a girl with pig-tails sticking out horizontally from her head and the word ladie's. The clocks above reception gave the time in Beijing, Freetown, London, Paris and New York. London was out by an hour.

'Africa is a good environment for Chinese investment, because it's not too competitive,' Yang Zhou said as he ushered me into the Presidential Suite, the hotel's best room. Shower: made in China. TV: made in China. Kettle: made in China. The doors to the rooms were designed for the Chinese as well as by them—the six-foot-four Danish cameraman with me had to stoop to get inside.

Sierra Leone epitomizes the British Prime Minister Tony Blair's vision of Africa as a 'scar on the conscience of the world'. By most calculations it is the poorest country on earth, with seventy per cent of the population living in poverty. UN troops keep the peace, after a brutal conflict over power and resources in which child soldiers amputated people's arms and legs with machetes, and rape was widespread. Sierra Leone, a former British colony, is one of the largest recipients of British aid, but the benefit is hard to see. Few homes have electricity or running water, and sixty per cent of young men are unemployed.

Most European companies abandoned Sierra Leone long ago, but where Africa's traditional business partners see only difficulty, the Chinese see opportunity. They are the new pioneers in Africa, and—seemingly unnoticed by aid planners and foreign ministries in Europe—they are changing the face of the continent. Forty years ago, Chinese interests in Africa were ideological. They built the TanZam railway as a way of linking Tanzania to Zambia while bypassing apartheid South Africa. Black and white footage shows Chinese workers in wide-brimmed straw hats laying sleepers, and a youthful President Kenneth Kaunda of Zambia waving his white handkerchief as he mounted the first train. As an emblem of solidarity, China built stadiums for football matches and political rallies in most African countries which declared themselves socialist. In the 1980s and 1990s, the Middle Kingdom withdrew to concentrate on its own development, but in 2000 the first China–Africa Forum, held in Beijing, signalled renewed interest in Africa. Now, the Chinese are the most voracious capitalists on the continent and trade between China and Africa is doubling every year.

On the outskirts of Freetown, on the site of an abandoned centre for disabled refugees, the privately owned Chinese company, Henan Guoji, has created the Guoji Industrial Entry Zone, a small complex of workshops and factories. In the city centre, a new multi-storey government office-block, military headquarters, and refurbished stadium are all the work of the Chinese. The British say future aid will depend on Sierra Leone's progress towards democracy. China, which follows a policy of 'non-interference' in African politics, and is scarcely in a position to tell any other country to be democratic, has nonetheless built the modernistic, brown bunker tucked into a hillside which serves as the country's new parliament.

Xu Min Zheng (translator: Lucy), the Henan Guoji representative in Freetown, told me that his company was following the Chinese government's injunction to 'Go Global'. The first part of the twenty-first century is dubbed 'the period of strategic opportunity'. Chinese companies are preparing themselves to become multinationals, and Africa is their proving ground. 'The Chinese are very diligent,' said Mr Zheng, who wore a jacket and tie despite the humidity. 'We are good at learning, and our equipment and raw materials are cheap.' Many companies bring even their labour force from China. Africans watch in surprise as buildings are erected in weeks. ('The Chinese don't seem to rest,' Sierra Leone's Information Minister told me. 'We could learn from that.') Managers and translators live in barracks-style accommodation. No spouses, no children, none of the comfort and expense Western expatriates demand.

'I never thought my life would be so exciting,' Lucy the translator said. 'My mother wants me to go back to Beijing and get a boyfriend and have a child, but I want to be here for a few years. Then maybe I'll get to go somewhere else in Africa or even to Britain. With a company like Henan Guoji, if you speak English, you can go anywhere.'

When I first went to Africa in the early 1980s, it was rare to see a Chinese face, other than in embassies or Chinese restaurants. Now, the Chinese are everywhere—building the new State House in Uganda, starting joint businesses in South Africa and, most significantly, establishing themselves in countries with natural resources. Chinese companies are involved in mining, timber, fishing and precious stones. Above all, they are involved in oil.

Second only to the United States in its oil consumption, China needs Africa's resources to fuel its own phenomenal growth. In oil-rich countries like Angola, Chad, Nigeria and Sudan, the influence of former colonial powers is waning. The Chinese government imposes no political conditions on African governments before signing contracts for exploration or production. No Chinese pressure groups lobby Chinese oil companies about 'transparency' or environmental damage. Not surprisingly, African governments welcome these undemanding new investors.

I employed a young Sudanese journalist, Nima Elbagir, to find out how Chinese investment was changing Sudan, 2,500 miles from Sierra Leone on the other side of the continent. She got hold of the Sudanese energy ministry video archive of Chinese activities in the oil sector: earnest seismologists on their knees tapping the dry, brown desert for the latest oil find; the Sudanese President, Omar al-Bashir, and the head of the African division of the Chinese National Petroleum Corporation (CNPC) at a ribbon cutting ceremony for the new oil refinery at Al Jaily, north of Khartoum. She filmed billboards across the capital showing smiling Sudanese and Chinese oil workers in yellow hard hats shaking hands, with the legend—in Chinese, Arabic and English—CNPC: YOUR CLOSE FRIEND AND FAITHFUL PARTNER.

Sixty per cent of Sudan's oil goes to China; twelve per cent of China's oil comes from Sudan. No wonder the Sudanese government is untroubled by the oil sanctions which prevent American investment. 'With the Chinese, we don't feel any interference in our Sudanese traditions or politics or beliefs or behaviours,' Awad al-Jaz, Sudan's energy minister said when Nima interviewed him on camera in Khartoum. He smiled as if trying to suppress a laugh. 'Business is business. There is no other business but the business.'

In 2004, when Britain and the US pushed for a punitive UN Security Council resolution against Sudan for the mass killing of civilians in Darfur, China threatened a veto. The weaker resolution which passed with Chinese approval had little impact. Chinese companies have built three small-arms factories near Khartoum; most of the weapons used by government forces and militia in Darfur are manufactured there or in China.

Human rights workers have a new problem here. As their economic interest in Africa has declined, Europe and America have gone along with calls for 'good governance' and an end to human rights abuse in Africa. It is easy to moralize at regimes which you have no reason to cultivate. But such regimes will not cow to this new moralizing if China is offering practical support without conditions. In May 2005, President Robert Mugabe—regarded as a pariah by Europe and the United States—told the crowd celebrating twenty-five years of Zimbabwe's independence: 'We have turned east, where the sun rises, and given our back to the west, where the sun sets.'

When white farmers dominated commercial agriculture, Zimbabwe used to sell tobacco at international auction. Now the auction houses in Harare are silent—tobacco goes directly to China's 300 million smokers, as payment in kind for loans and investment from Chinese banks to Zimbabwe's bankrupt state-run companies. As Zimbabwe's agricultural sector collapses, the Chinese are taking over land the Zimbabwean government confiscated from white farmers, and cultivating the crops they need. On a recent visit to Beijing, President Mugabe—who was armed by the Chinese during the bush war against Ian Smith's Rhodesian forces—was given an honorary professorship at the Foreign Affairs University for his 'remarkable contribution in the work of diplomacy and international relations'. The same week, a UN report condemned his government for demolishing 700,000 homes and businesses 'with indifference to human suffering'.

In Freetown last June, rainstorms made the electricity cut out even more frequently than usual. The hi-tech console controlling the lights and TV in each room at the Bintumani bleeped in the night, as the power surged and faded. The new casino, a joint venture by a Chinese man called Henry and an Irishman called Derek with collar-length hair and a 1970s wide-lapel suit, was not busy. Chinese businessmen spun the roulette wheel, while a few glum Lebanese played slot machines, gambling with money they may soon lose anyway, as the Chinese break their traditional monopoly on trade in West Africa.

Sierra Leone's ambassador to Beijing, Sahr Johnny, was hosting a Chinese delegation planning investments in hydroelectric power and agriculture. 'The Chinese are doing more than the G8 to make poverty history,' he said. 'If a G8 country had wanted to rebuild the stadium, we'd still be holding meetings! The Chinese just come and do it. They don't hold meetings about environmental impact assessment, human rights, bad governance and good governance. I'm not saying it's right, just that Chinese investment is succeeding because they don't set high benchmarks.'

Like most African diplomats, Mr Johnny sent his children abroad to study. The two girls work in Britain, but his son is in Hong Kong, learning Mandarin and Cantonese.

Africa looks to China and sees success: according to the World Bank, the Chinese have lifted 400 million of their own people out of poverty in the past two decades. All the while, no one forced the Chinese government to have elections or allow its opponents to start newspapers. Many African leaders would love to do to their oppositions what the Chinese did to theirs in Tiananmen Square, but if they want Western aid money, they must abide by Western conditions.

Like most Western journalists and aid workers who have spent time in Africa, I frequently despair at the continent's problems, veering between blaming the aid donors, the African governments, and even at times the people. Western aid hasn't worked, so why was everyone demonstrating near Gleneagles so convinced that sending more would make things better? It cannot be good that African governments persist with human rights abuse, or perpetuate their rule against the desires of their peoples, but poverty remains Africa's greatest problem, and liberal concerns have not helped Africa's poor.

The Chinese come to Africa as equals, with no colonial hangover, no complex relationship of resentment. China wants to buy; Africa has something to sell. If African governments could respond in a way which spread the new wealth—a large if, of course—then China might provide an opportunity for Africa which Europe and America have failed to deliver.

  

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akon
Charter member
27010 posts
Mon Mar-06-06 03:26 PM

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224. "wow..good post."
In response to Reply # 220


  

          

i actually prefer china-africa relations during the height of pan africanism.
that was more geared toward an equal development/political forum.
today? it sounds a tad bit exploitative.

my mom works in sierra leone, btw. that's a country that needs all the help it can get so i cant even hate on what the chinese are doing
at least they are investing. the un pulled out in december without securing any kind of developmental aid to that country/
without even being sure of the country's stability. (its the same thing they did in liberia- and a few months later that country was at war.)

i wish the best for sierra leone, but for it to gain stability, she's going to need to find employment opportunities for that '60%' youthful population.
china might be the way to go.... i dont know.
but if they are importing workers from china instead of using the local population then i dont really know how they country benefits.

but i remember they built a stadium in nairobi.
and nairobians used to say that there was a notable lack of dogs in that area after a few months )




>After all this might be relevant to the discussion since
>we've only discussed "internal" governance. This might give us
>elements to think about
>
>'We Love China'
>http://www.granta.com/extracts/2616
>
>
>An African revolution that needs noticing: 'The Chinese are
>the most voracious capitalists on the continent and trade
>between China and Africa is doubling every year.'
>
>I arrived in Sierra Leone in June 2005, at the height of the
>rainy season. Mud washed down the pot-holed streets of the
>capital, Freetown, and knots of beggars, some without arms or
>legs, huddled under trees and against battered shop-fronts. It
>was a fortnight before the G8 summit in Gleneagles, Scotland,
>where Bob Geldof and Bono were to celebrate a huge increase in
>aid to Africa, but in the Bintumani Hotel no-one spoke of
>this. Gusts of rain-filled wind blew through the hotel's porch
>to set the large red lanterns swinging. Cardboard cut-outs of
>Chinese children in traditional dress had been stuck on the
>windows. The management had just celebrated Chinese New Year.
>
>It was my first visit to Sierra Leone in more than twenty
>years' reporting from Africa, and I was to make a film not
>about the normal issues covered by British television—orphans,
>war victims, corruption—but about something few outside Africa
>seemed to have noticed: the rapidly growing influence of China
>in the continent.
>
>The hotel's manager, Yang Zhou, was pleased to show me round,
>helped by his spiky-haired young translator who introduced
>himself as Maxwell. While Chinese businessmen stick to their
>real names, Chinese translators in Sierra Leone give
>themselves English names to ease communication with Africans
>and visiting Europeans.
>
>The Beijing Urban Construction Group, which is owned by the
>Chinese government, started to rebuild the Bintumani Hotel
>even before Sierra Leone's civil war ended in 2002. The wall
>opposite the manager's office had been decorated with glossy
>photographs of China's economic progress: one showed the Three
>Gorges Dam, another a group of pretty young Chinese women
>throwing their mortar boards in the air to celebrate
>graduation. The captions were in Chinese and English, as was
>the sign for the toilet which featured a girl with pig-tails
>sticking out horizontally from her head and the word ladie's.
>The clocks above reception gave the time in Beijing, Freetown,
>London, Paris and New York. London was out by an hour.
>
>'Africa is a good environment for Chinese investment, because
>it's not too competitive,' Yang Zhou said as he ushered me
>into the Presidential Suite, the hotel's best room. Shower:
>made in China. TV: made in China. Kettle: made in China. The
>doors to the rooms were designed for the Chinese as well as by
>them—the six-foot-four Danish cameraman with me had to stoop
>to get inside.
>
>Sierra Leone epitomizes the British Prime Minister Tony
>Blair's vision of Africa as a 'scar on the conscience of the
>world'. By most calculations it is the poorest country on
>earth, with seventy per cent of the population living in
>poverty. UN troops keep the peace, after a brutal conflict
>over power and resources in which child soldiers amputated
>people's arms and legs with machetes, and rape was widespread.
>Sierra Leone, a former British colony, is one of the largest
>recipients of British aid, but the benefit is hard to see. Few
>homes have electricity or running water, and sixty per cent of
>young men are unemployed.
>
>Most European companies abandoned Sierra Leone long ago, but
>where Africa's traditional business partners see only
>difficulty, the Chinese see opportunity. They are the new
>pioneers in Africa, and—seemingly unnoticed by aid planners
>and foreign ministries in Europe—they are changing the face of
>the continent. Forty years ago, Chinese interests in Africa
>were ideological. They built the TanZam railway as a way of
>linking Tanzania to Zambia while bypassing apartheid South
>Africa. Black and white footage shows Chinese workers in
>wide-brimmed straw hats laying sleepers, and a youthful
>President Kenneth Kaunda of Zambia waving his white
>handkerchief as he mounted the first train. As an emblem of
>solidarity, China built stadiums for football matches and
>political rallies in most African countries which declared
>themselves socialist. In the 1980s and 1990s, the Middle
>Kingdom withdrew to concentrate on its own development, but in
>2000 the first China–Africa Forum, held in Beijing, signalled
>renewed interest in Africa. Now, the Chinese are the most
>voracious capitalists on the continent and trade between China
>and Africa is doubling every year.
>
>On the outskirts of Freetown, on the site of an abandoned
>centre for disabled refugees, the privately owned Chinese
>company, Henan Guoji, has created the Guoji Industrial Entry
>Zone, a small complex of workshops and factories. In the city
>centre, a new multi-storey government office-block, military
>headquarters, and refurbished stadium are all the work of the
>Chinese. The British say future aid will depend on Sierra
>Leone's progress towards democracy. China, which follows a
>policy of 'non-interference' in African politics, and is
>scarcely in a position to tell any other country to be
>democratic, has nonetheless built the modernistic, brown
>bunker tucked into a hillside which serves as the country's
>new parliament.
>
>Xu Min Zheng (translator: Lucy), the Henan Guoji
>representative in Freetown, told me that his company was
>following the Chinese government's injunction to 'Go Global'.
>The first part of the twenty-first century is dubbed 'the
>period of strategic opportunity'. Chinese companies are
>preparing themselves to become multinationals, and Africa is
>their proving ground. 'The Chinese are very diligent,' said Mr
>Zheng, who wore a jacket and tie despite the humidity. 'We are
>good at learning, and our equipment and raw materials are
>cheap.' Many companies bring even their labour force from
>China. Africans watch in surprise as buildings are erected in
>weeks. ('The Chinese don't seem to rest,' Sierra Leone's
>Information Minister told me. 'We could learn from that.')
>Managers and translators live in barracks-style accommodation.
>No spouses, no children, none of the comfort and expense
>Western expatriates demand.
>
>'I never thought my life would be so exciting,' Lucy the
>translator said. 'My mother wants me to go back to Beijing and
>get a boyfriend and have a child, but I want to be here for a
>few years. Then maybe I'll get to go somewhere else in Africa
>or even to Britain. With a company like Henan Guoji, if you
>speak English, you can go anywhere.'
>
>When I first went to Africa in the early 1980s, it was rare to
>see a Chinese face, other than in embassies or Chinese
>restaurants. Now, the Chinese are everywhere—building the new
>State House in Uganda, starting joint businesses in South
>Africa and, most significantly, establishing themselves in
>countries with natural resources. Chinese companies are
>involved in mining, timber, fishing and precious stones. Above
>all, they are involved in oil.
>
>Second only to the United States in its oil consumption, China
>needs Africa's resources to fuel its own phenomenal growth. In
>oil-rich countries like Angola, Chad, Nigeria and Sudan, the
>influence of former colonial powers is waning. The Chinese
>government imposes no political conditions on African
>governments before signing contracts for exploration or
>production. No Chinese pressure groups lobby Chinese oil
>companies about 'transparency' or environmental damage. Not
>surprisingly, African governments welcome these undemanding
>new investors.
>
>I employed a young Sudanese journalist, Nima Elbagir, to find
>out how Chinese investment was changing Sudan, 2,500 miles
>from Sierra Leone on the other side of the continent. She got
>hold of the Sudanese energy ministry video archive of Chinese
>activities in the oil sector: earnest seismologists on their
>knees tapping the dry, brown desert for the latest oil find;
>the Sudanese President, Omar al-Bashir, and the head of the
>African division of the Chinese National Petroleum Corporation
>(CNPC) at a ribbon cutting ceremony for the new oil refinery
>at Al Jaily, north of Khartoum. She filmed billboards across
>the capital showing smiling Sudanese and Chinese oil workers
>in yellow hard hats shaking hands, with the legend—in Chinese,
>Arabic and English—CNPC: YOUR CLOSE FRIEND AND FAITHFUL
>PARTNER.
>
>Sixty per cent of Sudan's oil goes to China; twelve per cent
>of China's oil comes from Sudan. No wonder the Sudanese
>government is untroubled by the oil sanctions which prevent
>American investment. 'With the Chinese, we don't feel any
>interference in our Sudanese traditions or politics or beliefs
>or behaviours,' Awad al-Jaz, Sudan's energy minister said when
>Nima interviewed him on camera in Khartoum. He smiled as if
>trying to suppress a laugh. 'Business is business. There is no
>other business but the business.'
>
>In 2004, when Britain and the US pushed for a punitive UN
>Security Council resolution against Sudan for the mass killing
>of civilians in Darfur, China threatened a veto. The weaker
>resolution which passed with Chinese approval had little
>impact. Chinese companies have built three small-arms
>factories near Khartoum; most of the weapons used by
>government forces and militia in Darfur are manufactured there
>or in China.
>
>Human rights workers have a new problem here. As their
>economic interest in Africa has declined, Europe and America
>have gone along with calls for 'good governance' and an end to
>human rights abuse in Africa. It is easy to moralize at
>regimes which you have no reason to cultivate. But such
>regimes will not cow to this new moralizing if China is
>offering practical support without conditions. In May 2005,
>President Robert Mugabe—regarded as a pariah by Europe and the
>United States—told the crowd celebrating twenty-five years of
>Zimbabwe's independence: 'We have turned east, where the sun
>rises, and given our back to the west, where the sun sets.'
>
>When white farmers dominated commercial agriculture, Zimbabwe
>used to sell tobacco at international auction. Now the auction
>houses in Harare are silent—tobacco goes directly to China's
>300 million smokers, as payment in kind for loans and
>investment from Chinese banks to Zimbabwe's bankrupt state-run
>companies. As Zimbabwe's agricultural sector collapses, the
>Chinese are taking over land the Zimbabwean government
>confiscated from white farmers, and cultivating the crops they
>need. On a recent visit to Beijing, President Mugabe—who was
>armed by the Chinese during the bush war against Ian Smith's
>Rhodesian forces—was given an honorary professorship at the
>Foreign Affairs University for his 'remarkable contribution in
>the work of diplomacy and international relations'. The same
>week, a UN report condemned his government for demolishing
>700,000 homes and businesses 'with indifference to human
>suffering'.
>
>In Freetown last June, rainstorms made the electricity cut out
>even more frequently than usual. The hi-tech console
>controlling the lights and TV in each room at the Bintumani
>bleeped in the night, as the power surged and faded. The new
>casino, a joint venture by a Chinese man called Henry and an
>Irishman called Derek with collar-length hair and a 1970s
>wide-lapel suit, was not busy. Chinese businessmen spun the
>roulette wheel, while a few glum Lebanese played slot
>machines, gambling with money they may soon lose anyway, as
>the Chinese break their traditional monopoly on trade in West
>Africa.
>
>Sierra Leone's ambassador to Beijing, Sahr Johnny, was hosting
>a Chinese delegation planning investments in hydroelectric
>power and agriculture. 'The Chinese are doing more than the G8
>to make poverty history,' he said. 'If a G8 country had wanted
>to rebuild the stadium, we'd still be holding meetings! The
>Chinese just come and do it. They don't hold meetings about
>environmental impact assessment, human rights, bad governance
>and good governance. I'm not saying it's right, just that
>Chinese investment is succeeding because they don't set high
>benchmarks.'
>
>Like most African diplomats, Mr Johnny sent his children
>abroad to study. The two girls work in Britain, but his son is
>in Hong Kong, learning Mandarin and Cantonese.
>
>Africa looks to China and sees success: according to the World
>Bank, the Chinese have lifted 400 million of their own people
>out of poverty in the past two decades. All the while, no one
>forced the Chinese government to have elections or allow its
>opponents to start newspapers. Many African leaders would love
>to do to their oppositions what the Chinese did to theirs in
>Tiananmen Square, but if they want Western aid money, they
>must abide by Western conditions.
>
>Like most Western journalists and aid workers who have spent
>time in Africa, I frequently despair at the continent's
>problems, veering between blaming the aid donors, the African
>governments, and even at times the people. Western aid hasn't
>worked, so why was everyone demonstrating near Gleneagles so
>convinced that sending more would make things better? It
>cannot be good that African governments persist with human
>rights abuse, or perpetuate their rule against the desires of
>their peoples, but poverty remains Africa's greatest problem,
>and liberal concerns have not helped Africa's poor.
>
>The Chinese come to Africa as equals, with no colonial
>hangover, no complex relationship of resentment. China wants
>to buy; Africa has something to sell. If African governments
>could respond in a way which spread the new wealth—a large if,
>of course—then China might provide an opportunity for Africa
>which Europe and America have failed to deliver.
>

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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normal35762
Member since Oct 20th 2004
13246 posts
Mon Mar-06-06 05:51 PM

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228. ""anagers and translators live in barracks-style accommodation.....""
In response to Reply # 220


  

          

"anagers and translators live in barracks-style accommodation. No spouses, no children, none of the comfort and expense Western expatriates demand."

there are some sierra leonean/chinese kids out there. probably in all the countries where they set up shop and dont bring spouses.

  

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AFRICAN
Charter member
11871 posts
Tue Mar-07-06 08:25 AM

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240. "Not to get sidetracked"
In response to Reply # 228


  

          

but the Chinese employees have created their own subculture.They set up restaruants import/smuggle in their own brands of liqour-straight firewater,I don't even know how they drink that shit- etc.
And in the Oil producing areas there are mixed kids popping up-I weep for their future-,already.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
instagram:@3rdworldview
Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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Olu
Charter member
17835 posts
Mon Mar-06-06 08:30 PM

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234. "I trust them about as far as I can throw the country"
In response to Reply # 220


  

          

they want the same thing the west does. Namely exploitation

http://www.last.fm/user/Olu/
http://ghanageek.wordpress.com/

  

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AFRICAN
Charter member
11871 posts
Tue Mar-07-06 08:21 AM

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239. "I guess it fell off."
In response to Reply # 220


  

          

We really need to keep our invetstment situation under control.
With all these sanctions and whatnot the goverment will jump at any opportunity it gets.
-sidenote on the article,I drive by a billboard with that faithful partner and whatever,everyday on my way to work.And Nima the'yuoung Sudanese journalist is a good freind of mine-even though we disagree on everything under rthe sun-/-

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
instagram:@3rdworldview
Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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kaytomah
Member since Oct 22nd 2004
891 posts
Tue Mar-07-06 11:57 AM

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242. "Eliminate Military Expense"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Every African country need to eliminate or put its military budget to down. I am Liberian and I speak from example of what the Western countries have done to us. Conflicts in the world are controlled by five countries that head the United Nations, its permanent members: United States, China, France, Russia and Britain...These are the biggest arms dealers.

This is the biggest task that every African nation faces because the military is the straw that keep the mat straight.It also keep the foreigner leeches in control. African countries need to oveerstand that it is time we emulate other nations like the so-called "tigers" of Asia.

Tribalism, regionalism is global and those are traits that were left from colonial era-this is not unique to Africa(Blue versus Red in the US). Our problem is adoptive models that we use/used to continue this brutality and digression of our people. The military as Fela is quick to point out are nothing more than Zombies.

Africa Union dream agenda for member states:

1. Education
2. Health Care
3. Social Services-substracted from foreign investors
4. Living Wage
5. Environmental Issues(yes, these coporations dumped shiet in Afrique...)
These should be the areas that can create unity, but how many African leaders are willing to put their lives on the line for their people? This is part of the issue with foreign evolvement at all levels it take the issue at another level.

  

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akon
Charter member
27010 posts
Wed Mar-08-06 12:41 PM

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243. "reduce Military Expense"
In response to Reply # 242


  

          

Definitely reduce the military budgets.
Especially because we already have stockpiles of second hand obsolete weapons -relics
of the soviet era.

I think a smaller, better trained military force is more important than inflated numbers.
i think countries in which the leadership does not exist to make people’s lives miserable, or even does not feel the need to hang on to power- there really is no need for all that. It’s countries in which the political structure is crumbling (and we have so many failed states from which to cull examples (dare we mention Somalia? Sierra leone? Chad? Ivory coast?) that have the largest forces. Its countries where the leadership retains his power by catering to the armed forces in which the military budgets are ridiculous.

We also need to look into politicians salaries, mayne. And all those allowances. Don’t even get me started.






>Every African country need to eliminate or put its military
>budget to down. I am Liberian and I speak from example of what
>the Western countries have done to us. Conflicts in the world
>are controlled by five countries that head the United Nations,
>its permanent members: United States, China, France, Russia
>and Britain...These are the biggest arms dealers.
>
>This is the biggest task that every African nation faces
>because the military is the straw that keep the mat
>straight.It also keep the foreigner leeches in control.
>African countries need to oveerstand that it is time we
>emulate other nations like the so-called "tigers" of Asia.
>
>Tribalism, regionalism is global and those are traits that
>were left from colonial era-this is not unique to Africa(Blue
>versus Red in the US). Our problem is adoptive models that we
>use/used to continue this brutality and digression of our
>people. The military as Fela is quick to point out are nothing
>more than Zombies.
>
>Africa Union dream agenda for member states:
>
>1. Education
>2. Health Care
>3. Social Services-substracted from foreign investors
>4. Living Wage
>5. Environmental Issues(yes, these coporations dumped shiet in
>Afrique...)
>These should be the areas that can create unity, but how many
>African leaders are willing to put their lives on the line for
>their people? This is part of the issue with foreign
>evolvement at all levels it take the issue at another level.
>

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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AFRICAN
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Fri Mar-10-06 03:44 PM

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246. "I can clap to your wishlist"
In response to Reply # 242


  

          

but realistically,no goverment would put those issues on a fast track.
Foriegn intervention is a huge issue.
I'll save my rant for another day.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
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Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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unfukwitable
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Wed Apr-05-06 10:11 AM

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251. "nah, stronger more proffesional militaries are needed"
In response to Reply # 242


  

          

to many militaries are so week a helicopter or two of soth african mercenaries can topple them, or a ragtap rebel army of illtrained fighters give them problems.

A millitary should be strong enough to keep the politicians in check and to crush rebel bullshit early

  

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akon
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Thu Mar-09-06 12:19 PM

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244. "Koffi Anan: Courage to fulfil our responsibilities"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3445764

i culled what i feel is important.

Getting serious about prevention
Given the gravity and interconnectedness of today's threats, our world needs to be far more committed to prevention. Prevention, if properly resourced and broadly supported, can be highly effective. The panel report reminds us that in 1963, many thought that 25-50 states would possess nuclear weapons by this year; the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty has helped prevent this. The World Health Organisation, which led efforts to eradicate smallpox and roll back the threat of polio, recently helped halt the spread of SARS and save the lives of tens of thousands of people.

The best agents of prevention are capable states, exercising their sovereignty responsibly, dealing with internal dangers before they threaten others, and acting collectively with other states to meet threats on a global scale.

And our best preventive strategy is to support development. Committing resources to achieve the Millennium Development Goals agreed in 2000 (which, among other things, set targets to halve extreme poverty and hunger by 2015) is the best security investment states can make. It will save lives in poor countries, reduce violent conflict and the appeal of radicalism, and bolster the ability of states to deal with threats before they cause real harm.

The dangers of inadequate preventive action are powerfully illustrated by the HIV/AIDS epidemic. In the face of a lamentably slow and ineffective global response, the disease has killed 20m people in as many years, and it continues to spread. Tragically, the worst is yet to come. Its ultimate cost will be measured not just in lives, but in shattered societies. Despite greater international resolve in recent years, we are still not taking all the steps needed to bring the disease under control.

We also need a major initiative to build public-health capacities in the developing world. If diseases can be treated and, better still, prevented at local level, not only the poorer countries will benefit. The whole world will acquire better defences against bio-terrorism and large-scale natural epidemics. And the Security Council should work closely with the World Health Organisation to strengthen biological security through prompt, effective responses to such outbreaks.

Equally critical is greater collective action on environmental degradation—from a long-term strategy to reduce global warming, going beyond the period covered by the Kyoto protocol, to better management of natural resources in countries that are at risk.

---
Civil and interstate wars
Since the end of the cold war, the UN has become far more engaged in preventing and ending civil wars, and it has continued its long-standing role of working to stop wars between states. As the panel points out, more civil wars have been brought to an end through negotiation since 1990 than in the 200 years before that. Through successes and failures, we have developed expertise and learned hard lessons.

As the demand for UN blue helmets continues to grow, we need to boost the supply of peacekeepers to avoid repeating some of the worst failures of the 1990s. Wealthy states should hasten their efforts to transform existing forces into contingents suitable for peace operations, and put them at the disposal of the UN. We must also invest in mediation and support the implementation of peace agreements. The report stresses the importance of demobilising combatants and reintegrating them into civilian life. If this is not done, civil wars cannot be successfully brought to an end, and other critical goals—democracy, justice and development—will remain unmet.

Time and again, the international community has lost focus once the high point of a crisis has passed or peacekeepers have left a country. I welcome the panel's proposal to help deal with this problem: the creation by the Security Council of a Peacebuilding Commission, which would give the organisation a strategic focus for its work in countries under stress or emerging from conflict.

The use of force
Prevention or peaceful dispute-resolution will sometimes fail. When it does, we must be able to rely on the use of force. No matter what the cause, the report proposes five basic guidelines that all states, and the Security Council, should bear in mind in deciding whether to do so:

• Seriousness of threat: Is the threat serious enough to justify prima facie the use of force?

• Proper purpose: Is the primary purpose of the proposed use of force to halt or avert the threat in question?

• Last resort: Has every non-military option been explored and exhausted?

• Proportional means: Is the force proposed the minimum necessary to meet the threat?

• Balance of consequences: Is it clear that the consequences of action will not be worse than the consequences of inaction?






>Every African whose ever talked politics,has heard that at
>some point or another.
>It's usually stated in a semi-serious manner,usually with a
>touch of self hate.
>
>I think I'm a believer though.
>My views are personal and I don't claim to speak for anyone.
>
>I think a dedicated,honest and rather ruthless dictator would
>actually be good.
>Not because we are incapable of making intelligent decsions
>about our leaders.
>Not because the lack of education.
>But beacuse of tribalism.
>Because of geopolitics.
>Because of the goddamn Coup's every fucking month.
>
>A dedicated junta,with a rigid agenda.5 years.Could do
>wonders.
>
>-Education.Free schooling,raise the quality of textbooks,get
>children and parents involved in after school activities.BY
>FORCE.
>
>-Health.Close down private clinics and hospitals and focus on
>basic healthcare and PREVENTION.Shit is not that complicated.
>
>-Development.Stop warring with everyone and get those soldiers
>rehabilitating the rural
>areas.Infrastructure.Infrastructure.Infrastructure.
>
>Regulate business.REGULATE BUSINESS.
>
>Crack down on corruption.
>
>Raise the standard of living.
>
>Make use of your countrymen roaming the fucking globe,giving
>their resources,intelligence and expertise to others-and not
>by choice either,they gotta eat-.
>
>Lay down the law for NGO's if they want to work.Specific
>targets that have to be met with a time frame.
>
>No political activity for 5 years.Death sentence if you do-and
>yes a lot of folks will buck it,gotta die-.
>
>Jail every ex-politician for 5 years-all those over the age of
>30-.
>
>Ban all political parties-esp on Univeristy campuses-.5
>years.
>
>This is all very glib and simplified,but you get my drift.
>
>After these 5 years are over,hold elections-which the junta
>will not participate in- and hand over to the elected
>goverment.After putting into effect a very clear
>constitution.
>
>The catch of course,is that I know no one-myself included- I'd
>trust with that kind of power.
>But if I did,I'd throw myself behind them 100 %.
>
>Attack this position if you will.
>

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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akon
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Thu Mar-09-06 12:21 PM

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245. "what is the role of the UN in africa?"
In response to Reply # 244


  

          

how would you rate the job the un is doing?

(you can break down to its different agencies if you want).

would the U.N be a necessary presence if africa ever got its act together... or in an ideal country as that being 'created' by the post?






*(i have no bias against the U.N btw. that org. paid for basically 4 years of my college educ.)

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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AFRICAN
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Fri Mar-10-06 03:49 PM

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247. "I *HATE* the U.N"
In response to Reply # 245


  

          

with a passion even.
Granted they do some good things,I give them that.
But with the budgets/access/manpower/etc they have,they are doing next to nothing.
I think the U.N has an identity crisis.
It needs to decide whether it is a forum where all nations can come together and solve their problems or if they are an overseeing body which enacts the security councils agenda.

I know a lot of people working for the U.N-both Sudanese and foriegn-.I have horror stories for days.

The Darfur situation with the U.N is not looking good either.

More in a few.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
instagram:@3rdworldview
Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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akon
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Sat Mar-25-06 10:00 AM

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248. "i was missing this post."
In response to Reply # 247


  

          

i see the u.n plans to have troops in darfur by september.
im still not sure why the sudanese govt doesn't want troops on the ground. i understand why they would prefer the AU forces but they haven't done much to date (might be due to lack of resources)...
and i can't say i trust the african union with money... im sorry. too many corrupt government officials. not to say the UN is a preferred alternative, but....




>with a passion even.
>Granted they do some good things,I give them that.
>But with the budgets/access/manpower/etc they have,they are
>doing next to nothing.
>I think the U.N has an identity crisis.
>It needs to decide whether it is a forum where all nations can
>come together and solve their problems or if they are an
>overseeing body which enacts the security councils agenda.
>
>I know a lot of people working for the U.N-both Sudanese and
>foriegn-.I have horror stories for days.
>
>The Darfur situation with the U.N is not looking good either.
>
>More in a few.

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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akon
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Sat Mar-25-06 10:37 AM

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249. "i think we should archive this post"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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AFRICAN
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Wed Apr-05-06 01:22 PM

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253. " My co-author.Salut'."
In response to Reply # 249


  

          

.

http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
instagram:@3rdworldview
Blessed be the Lord /who believe any mess they read up on the message board

  

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akon
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Wed Apr-05-06 10:02 AM

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250. "*edit: what''s been happening in kenya"
In response to Reply # 0
Wed Apr-05-06 10:37 AM by akon

  

          

Last year, we were trying to write a new constitution so we can do away with some relics of colonialism. Process took two years and some of the folks on this committee were earning a cool 2million kshs a month (divide that by 70 to get dollar amount).
So come Nov 21 and there’s a constitutional referendum poll. Kenyans decide they don’t want the new constitution cause it merely gives more power to the presidency.
President gets pissed off, shuts down parliament. For 5 months.

How is a country run like this?
Like who was making decisions on the economy
(by the way, the finance minister got fired way back last year).
So who knows what's been happening with the economy since january

.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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akon
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Wed Apr-05-06 10:52 AM

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252. "Government faces Sh2.7 billion suit over secret project"
In response to Reply # 250


  

          



Story by SUNDAY NATION Team
Publication Date: 3/26/2006

A Dutch firm has filed a Sh2.7 billion claim against the Government over a contentious defence contract.
The claim, at an international tribunal at the Hague, has been rising at the rate of Sh2.1 million daily since March 1. The bill may get even higher through legal costs and other damages should the Government lose the case.
At issue is a Sh3.2 billion military command facility in Nairobi, constructed and equipped over two years by Nedermar Technology BV of Netherlands.
The facility, code-named "Project Nexus", was completed in June last year.
It was among 18 projects that were questioned by the Controller and Auditor-General. Former Ethics and Governance Permanent Secretary John Githongo ordered payments for some of them stopped.
Suit papers obtained by Sunday Nation confirm the "Project Nexus" case has been filed in the United Nations Commission on International Trade Law (Uncitral), which is part of the Permanent Court of Arbitration in the Hague.
---

blablabla
but the govt is gonna do some public relations so its all good
----

Another ploy to waste public cash

Story by MUTUMA MATHIU
Publication Date: 3/26/2006

The Government appears hell-bent on wasting public money on a hair-brained scheme to patch up its tattered image abroad. The scheme, announced by Information minister Mutahi Kagwe earlier in the week, will involve hiring foreign spin doctors to work with our missions abroad.

It is not quite clear how many of these are to be retained, but it could safely be assumed that Mr Kagwe is alive to the fact that spin doctors in the backwaters of the world would be superfluous. With all due respect to the much-maligned nation of Mongolia, the minister isn’t contemplating hiring spin doctor for every mission, is he?

We are to have PR officials in our embassies and High Commissions in the West, more likely, where the Government is desperate to present a face which is at variance with its true clueless, corruption-ravaged self.

In these countries, as Mr Kagwe no doubt is aware – the so-called information societies – services are very expensive. It would not be surprising if it were cheaper to buy a new shirt than to have an old one mended.

The analogy can be extended to the Government’s unhappy situation. In my letter to Finance minister Amos Kimunya a while ago, I remember pointing out that what the Government requires is not spin, it is action to unravel, punish and prevent corruption. Equally, the Government is on a permanent crisis mode, making it impossible to plan and satisfactorily conduct the affairs of the nation.


there's a reason im for AFRICAN's idealistic solutions to africa's issues. im very disappointed with what's happening in kenya and it seems like it happens despite our artificial sense of having achieved a democracy


.
http://perspectivesudans.blogspot.com/
i myself would never want to be god,or even like god.Because god got all these human beings on this planet and i most certainly would not want to be responsible for them, or even have the disgrace that i made them.

  

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