at this point...

Write a decent song first, then "produce" it...

We have forsaken songcraft for "production"...

Everybody worried abt the gizmos on the latest gear...

Fuck that...you need great material first before you can start talking abt great production...




Quote of a lifetime:

"they was funkin' so hard...they was funkin' so fuckin' hard..."
-D'Angelo in reference to a Sly and the Family Stone rehearsal video

"There are brighter days ahead..."
-Steveland Morris

"...music is not just a hobby or what i do...it's what
i live...music is the voice of my god, my vehicle for spiritual enlightenement..."
-OKP Illogicz

*******
allwedoiswindimoto.tumblr.com
www.windimoto.com

the argument could be made that great production begets great material...from an emcees point of view, the nicer the beat, the more inspiration to kick great rhymes...but i agree with you from an r&b standpoint, that a great song should be written before the track is made...

"what happened?"

while it depends on the artist you're talking about. Songwriting and production are two different things. Not a good songwriter does a producer make...and vice versa

------------------------------------------------------------
subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You).
Ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be
worshipped except You). Astaghfiruka

how did production gain such a prominent position?

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

Nicolay

|

Jamming your radar in 2003:

NICOLAY - "City Lights" hosted by LUNCHBOX
JUSTUS LEAGUE - "Mixtape Volume I: NC State Of Mind"
SUPASTITION - "Chain Letters" EP

Knockin' on ya door in 2004:

FOREIGN EXCHANGE (Phonte & Nicolay) - "Connected"

Nicolay

http://www.theforeignexchangemusic.com

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

Was written the traditional way before it was recorded

But yeah maybe you're right, I remember reading a 100 page chapter about how George and the boys went about recording and editing that final boom at the end of A Day In The Life

That boom along took a week

Nicolay

|

Jamming your radar in 2003:

NICOLAY - "City Lights" hosted by LUNCHBOX
JUSTUS LEAGUE - "Mixtape Volume I: NC State Of Mind"
SUPASTITION - "Chain Letters" EP

Knockin' on ya door in 2004:

FOREIGN EXCHANGE (Phonte & Nicolay) - "Connected"

Nicolay

http://www.theforeignexchangemusic.com

so i can't plant it squarely on them. but the thing is that their material became increaingly designed in and for the studio, to be on records and not to be performed live

to me, that is the test of the durability of a song, btw... can it be performed live, and can it sustain numerous different cover versions. i love cover versions... i've noticed that a lot of people in our generation don't like cover versions... i think it's because we grew up on records and "production" rather than live performance.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

"It" from SOTT... there's nothing really earthshattering about the song itself but the production makes it's genius

Nicolay

|

Jamming your radar in 2003:

NICOLAY - "City Lights" hosted by LUNCHBOX
JUSTUS LEAGUE - "Mixtape Volume I: NC State Of Mind"
SUPASTITION - "Chain Letters" EP

Knockin' on ya door in 2004:

FOREIGN EXCHANGE (Phonte & Nicolay) - "Connected"

Nicolay

http://www.theforeignexchangemusic.com

>to me, that is the test of the durability of a song, btw...
>can it be performed live, and can it sustain numerous
>different cover versions. i love cover versions... i've
>noticed that a lot of people in our generation don't like
>cover versions... i think it's because we grew up on records
>and "production" rather than live performance.

Exactly! I've been saying this for ages. Songs are basically just about the melody, the words, and the chords, and how long they last. Unlike classical music, when someone does a cover of a song, they change everything except the words and melody and basic chord structure.

It's ok for pop acts to try to put care into their arrangements etc, but at the end of the day it's not that important. Why? Because if they want to make every note important like classical music, then they have stop being so formulaic about the way they do things.

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

i can't plant it squarely on them. but the thing is that
>their material became increaingly designed in and for the
>studio, to be on records and not to be performed live

the reason it couldnt be performed as it was *recorded* on stage is because technology wouldnt allow it. but if you stripped the songs down, any song on sgt. peppers through to let it be could be performed live.

>to me, that is the test of the durability of a song, btw...
>can it be performed live, and can it sustain numerous
>different cover versions. i love cover versions... i've
>noticed that a lot of people in our generation don't like
>cover versions... i think it's because we grew up on records
>and "production" rather than live performance.

as the thousands of covers have shown, you can cover the beatles songs quite easily. they did it the right way - they worked on the songs on piano/guitar etc, and then went in to produce it.

i didn't introduce the Beatles in order to accuse them of tipping the balance between songwriting and production. after all, i pointed out right away that they still had superior material

i just wanted to initiate the examination of when production moved from being an "invisible" art to a prominent feature on records.

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

Yeah they went to great measure to make sure that they had their pianos and the studio set up to get the exact chord sound they wanted for that part. Even then, the whole song was NOT written before hitting the studio. I think I remember reading them experimenting with adding chants or something to the end of the song and then abandoning it.
===========================================
-Me

---
Love,
Nopayne

>But yeah maybe you're right, I remember reading a 100 page
>chapter about how George and the boys went about recording
>and editing that final boom at the end of A Day In The Life
>
>That boom along took a week

...if you check the Anthology tapes or video you can hear the original stripped-down demo (and those are actually demos...i.e. demonstrating the song to the people who are going to be involved in playing and producing it).

it kills.

in fact, i'd say that one of the reasons the Beatles were/are so phenomenal is that they were able to exploit such a wide range of production techniques so effectively, without letting the songs become at all reliant on the studio.

now, they may have become reliant on the studio as songWRITERS...writing looser or more flexible material to leave space for further composition and improvisation in the studio, but that's something different.

alek

____________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What? What?

____________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What? What?

Songs change chords.

Beats do not change chords. The MC raps over a repeating loop of 2 or 4 bars (usually). (this, btw, is why jazzmatazz doesn't sound that good)

Writing a few bars does not qualify as song-writing. That's why it's called production.

Production isn't very important when talking about most other genres. (and if it is in R&B, that would because R&B is a load of crap)

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

you're talking specifically of hip-hop production… but that's not the only kind of production there is. and production is still overrated, even in other genres with chord changes

listen to the new KoRn song, for instance… great production, but if there's a song in there, I totally missed it

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

Heavy Metal production

For some reason most of it doesn't even sound remotely heavy to me

Take Korn... and that stupid sorry ass plocking little kick drum they got going on... what's up with that

Nicolay

|

Jamming your radar in 2003:

NICOLAY - "City Lights" hosted by LUNCHBOX
JUSTUS LEAGUE - "Mixtape Volume I: NC State Of Mind"
SUPASTITION - "Chain Letters" EP

Knockin' on ya door in 2004:

FOREIGN EXCHANGE (Phonte & Nicolay) - "Connected"

Nicolay

http://www.theforeignexchangemusic.com

I don't think heavy metal fans are as concerned with the drums as those of us coming from a hip-hop/"black music" perspective. I mean, I know they like some wild drumming and stuff, but when they're talking about the "heavy" in Heavy Metal, it's the guitars they're talking about

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

Too bad though

Nicolay

|

Jamming your radar in 2003:

NICOLAY - "City Lights" hosted by LUNCHBOX
JUSTUS LEAGUE - "Mixtape Volume I: NC State Of Mind"
SUPASTITION - "Chain Letters" EP

Knockin' on ya door in 2004:

FOREIGN EXCHANGE (Phonte & Nicolay) - "Connected"

Nicolay

http://www.theforeignexchangemusic.com

what I gather from rock is geetars out front and just mix in the rest of that ish..

------------------------------------------------------------
subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You).
Ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be
worshipped except You). Astaghfiruka

the interesting difference between rock and "black music" is that in "black music" the bass is treated like its own independent (and very fundamental) instrument, while in rock, it's the "bass guitar"… a kind of guitar, and in many cases, an inferior one, relegated to standing behind the lead guitar and adding extra depth and volume by replicating the lead line.

then again, I think it was lonesome_d who offered a minor dissertation a while ago about the complexity of speed metal bass-playing…

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

They are a disgrace to basshood

Nicolay

|

Jamming your radar in 2003:

NICOLAY - "City Lights" hosted by LUNCHBOX
JUSTUS LEAGUE - "Mixtape Volume I: NC State Of Mind"
SUPASTITION - "Chain Letters" EP

Knockin' on ya door in 2004:

FOREIGN EXCHANGE (Phonte & Nicolay) - "Connected"

Nicolay

http://www.theforeignexchangemusic.com

that always bugs me out

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

...yeah, you definitely want to try playing some of those Pantera lines (not to mention the metal/ska lines) without one. unless you have one long, tough-ass fingernail, fingerpads aren't gonna help you.

plus plectrums are for sound as much as anything else.

which is not to say that some heavy metal bassists don't have terrible technique, or that they don't use all kinds of artificial crutches.

____________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What? What?

____________________________
LEFT side of the bedroom, fool!
What? What?

>the interesting difference between rock and "black music" is
>that in "black music" the bass is treated like its own
>independent (and very fundamental) instrument, while in
>rock, it's the "bass guitar"… a kind of guitar, and in many
>cases, an inferior one, relegated to standing behind the
>lead guitar and adding extra depth and volume by replicating
>the lead line.

True.. it's a supplement to the geetars.

>then again, I think it was lonesome_d who offered a minor
>dissertation a while ago about the complexity of speed metal
>bass-playing…

Yeah, the focus seems to be on high levels of technical ability and not necessarily musciality (for lack of a better term).

------------------------------------------------------------
subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You).
Ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be
worshipped except You). Astaghfiruka

in black music as it used to? cos half the hip hop and R&B out now seems to only have bass stabs, or no bass at all.

lol...it's been discussed before..you might check the archives. Not titles come to mind right now though. Although, I thought about starting a bass post.

------------------------------------------------------------
subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You).
Ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be
worshipped except You). Astaghfiruka

there aren't as many actual bassLINES, but the bass is still given a prominent place in the mix. probably even TOO prominent, considering the musical poverty of most bass parts

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

OK I get what you're saying, but in hiphop "producer" basically MEANS something else.

If the rest of the music industry is overly concerned with production, that's just because they're running out of good songwriting.

I think the thread topic is a bit misleading. In fact it doesn't actually apply to hip-hop. The original poster should have said this.

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

>OK I get what you're saying, but in hiphop "producer"
>basically MEANS something else.

8 times out of 10 Producer in hip-hop means Beatmaker. The production aspect happens as an after thought in alot of cases between the beat maker/engineer/probably misc business cats.

>If the rest of the music industry is overly concerned with
>production, that's just because they're running out of good
>songwriting.

What I gather from what Afkap was saying earlier is that the Beatles started the split of Studio Recording vs Live Playing. Based off of their impact in Pop music and recording. There came about the focus on the recording/producing aspect of music and not necessarily the songwriting (both lyrically and musically).

>I think the thread topic is a bit misleading. In fact it
>doesn't actually apply to hip-hop. The original poster
>should have said this.

No, I tend to agree though. Even as it applies to hip-hop we are in a production era right now. Your beats define you. Lyrics come second which are typically blah in most cases. But if you have signature series beats you may capture the attention of would-be fans.

------------------------------------------------------------
subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You).
Ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be
worshipped except You). Astaghfiruka

the "sound." I know what you mean now. Everyone wants the Neptunes "sound" or whatever. They want it to be the same cause that's what's popular, not because that's what's good.

I think one of the first examples of this is Phil Spector and his "Wall of Sound" thing. He was probably inspired by The Beatles, so yes i think it's acceptable to blame the Beatles. I mean even though the Beatles arranging and stuff is still better than most, it's still not what makes them great. It's their songwriting.

--------------------
Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

Spector influenced The Beatles, Beach Boys, etc.

so maybe Spector is actually a prime candidate

but then again, you can't blame any of these 60s cats, because they still had solid songs that they just enhanced with production. they wanted to prove that a record could be more than just the document of a particular performance... it could be a work of art in itself. and they did.

but some other people took it the wrong way...

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

>Spector influenced The Beatles, Beach Boys, etc.
>
>so maybe Spector is actually a prime candidate
>
>but then again, you can't blame any of these 60s cats,
>because they still had solid songs that they just enhanced
>with production.

I put the blame squarely on the technological advances in recording and making music. It has really dumbed down the whole creative process. I was in Sam Ash the other day checking out some of the patches on Roland's Fantom-S and I got so disgusted with how many of the sounds can easily be used to create a "hot" track. Any Joe Shmoe can come up with a pattern using on two or three keys, a drum track, and a simple bass line using these patches. I spent days, hours, and years developing my keyboard skills and now you don't even really have to "know how to play" in order to play keys these days.

All the great producers and songwriters say it over an over again...If a song can be felt when it's stripped down to just piano or guitar, etc then you know you have a solid song. The industry is track driven. How many cats are actually creating songs in that manner anymore? If I work with an artist I have to come to them with a bag full of tracks rather than coming together, talking about what we want to write about, then working out ideas at the piano or presenting my ideas at the keyboard. I love working like that!!

----------------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/gregsoundz

"As much as your imagination
allows always put yourself
in the other person's shoes
before making any judgement--
and even then know that your
conclusion is merely an opinion"

Jesus said to them, "...
when you make male and
female into a single one, so
that the male will not be
male nor the female be
female...then you will enter
the kingdom."
Gospel of Thomas 22b

-----------------------------------
"much obliged" - Bubs

follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/soundz714

Because most of what you sayin' sounds like some shit I would say:

Except this:

>I put the blame squarely on the technological advances in
>recording and making music. It has really dumbed down the
>whole creative process.

I mean, that's like sayin' "I'm mad because I invented the toaster oven so people could make fancy toasted bread, and HERE THEY GO putting pizza in it!!" You can't be mad at the advances because no-talent hacks abuse them.

>All the great producers and songwriters say it over an over
>again...If a song can be felt when it's stripped down to
>just piano or guitar, etc then you know you have a solid
>song.

I wholeheartedly agree.

>The industry is track driven.

Especially since hip-hop has dominated the music scene. EVERY hit R&B/POP/ROCK song I hear on the radio has one part. The shit hardly moves anywhere.

>If I work with an artist I have to come to
>them with a bag full of tracks rather than
>coming together, talking about what we
>want to write about, then working out
>ideas at the piano or presenting my ideas at
>the keyboard. I love working like that!!

Even though I only do hip-hop and I don't play any instruments, I still like to work the same way. I try to have at least two different samples in my beats though - to distinguish the hook parts from the verse parts. I think I've taken it as far as I can as a NON-musician. That's why I'm working with people who CAN play. I provide the boom bap, and they work the melodies.

™
Former ?uesto-endorsed Player Of The Week --- AND BECAUSE I have this honor, I will now SHAMELESSLY bite one of his moves:

_ h _

_ _ _ _ r _

O _

_ _ e

_ _ r _ _

_ _ _ b _ _ _

*****COMING APRIL 2004*****

Fuck ALL of these shower singin' ass muthafuckas.

Balcony Music, Volume Five
AVAILABLE NOW
https://waldorfandstatler.bandcamp.com/album/balcony-music-volume-five-the-story-of-us

that's what Producers are hired for. Moreso outside of hip-hop than anything. Although, in hip-hop your are seeing cats that where a million hats. Producer, songwriter, assistant engineer, arranger, programmer, the guy who bought the donuts etc. I think the new era of hip-hop producers are stepping up their game on across the board. So we will probably see more and more hip-hop cats playing the "Producer" roll.

But there is something to be said of Nicolays point of DIY music. This will begin to have an impact more and more over the next few years. So it'll be interesting to see the melding of all these rolls. As with anything there will be good and bad.

------------------------------------------------------------
subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You).
Ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be
worshipped except You). Astaghfiruka

white music. I guess..

------------------------------------------------------------
subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You).
Ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be
worshipped except You). Astaghfiruka

And I don't mean Judgement Day type experiments or just adding a hiphop beat

I mean heavy bass and drums

Nicolay

|

Jamming your radar in 2003:

NICOLAY - "City Lights" hosted by LUNCHBOX
JUSTUS LEAGUE - "Mixtape Volume I: NC State Of Mind"
SUPASTITION - "Chain Letters" EP

Knockin' on ya door in 2004:

FOREIGN EXCHANGE (Phonte & Nicolay) - "Connected"

Nicolay

http://www.theforeignexchangemusic.com

it could be some big effin music...lol. I'm not a rock afficiando by any means but I'd be interested in hearing some rock music that has a focus on some bangin a** drums and relateable ryhthms. Ryhthm doesn't appear to be a major factor in rock music either.

------------------------------------------------------------
subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You).
Ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be
worshipped except You). Astaghfiruka

>it could be some big effin music...lol. I'm not a rock
>afficiando by any means but I'd be interested in hearing
>some rock music that has a focus on some bangin a** drums
>and relateable ryhthms. Ryhthm doesn't appear to be a major
>factor in rock music either.

the drumming is allowed to be 'wilder' in rock than black music. more fills for example.

apart from led zep, you could go to mitch mitchell from the jimi hendrix experience, maybe even black sabbath, slayer, etc etc.

what the hell happened to the Tom Drum in black music. It's virtually non-existent in the music anymore. Frankly, I miss it.

------------------------------------------------------------
subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You).
Ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be
worshipped except You). Astaghfiruka

in danceable and in hum hum R. Kelly latest dancehall-inspired beats ...

..

------------------------------------------------------------
subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You).
Ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be
worshipped except You). Astaghfiruka

I mean John Bonham's drum sound pretty much invented Heavy Metal. Look at the first "heavy metal" groups who followed: Black Sabbath, I ron Butterfly, Iron Maiden, early Metallica. They all had some hard ass drums. Heavy metal has just change. The city of LA ruined rock drums. Everyone started doing that "studio" sound with double bass pedals and shit, just watered it down. Hair metal didn't help either.
Think if those first two full Fishbone albums and the first Living Color album had been produced on some dirtier, deeper drums. Damn.

yep

i kind of feel where you're comin' from, but you're just wrong. ex: listen to Nas' God's Son. Then listen to 9th Wonder's God's Step-Son. Most tracks are much better of more consistant (iller) production. You can have a dope screenplay, but without an equally dope director to realize it ...

----------------------------
*far from a square, 'cuz i wreck when i tangle*
----------------------------
-J. Clyde Morris

----------------------------
*far from a square, 'cuz i wreck when i tangle*
----------------------------
*i pump bass 4 U bathing apes to get charged*
----------------------------
www.threekeys.com

>You can have a dope
>screenplay, but without an equally dope director to realize
>it ...

a dope screenplay is still worth a good read, even if it has a poor director or even if it NEVER gets produced at all.

on the other hand, a good director with no screenplay is...

actually this is a bad analogy altogether

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

perceived it poorly (the analogy). The point of a piece of music is not to be read as poetry or the score analyzed. It is to be produced as an entire work, production (a beat or otherwise) can make or break a song.

----------------------------
*far from a square, 'cuz i wreck when i tangle*
----------------------------
-J. Clyde Morris

----------------------------
*far from a square, 'cuz i wreck when i tangle*
----------------------------
*i pump bass 4 U bathing apes to get charged*
----------------------------
www.threekeys.com

a screenplay is written for the express purpose of being produced for the screen (hence, the name)

you can read an unproduced screenplay and enjoy it, but there's still the sense that an unproduced screenplay is an unfinished product

a song is NOT written for the sole purpose of being recorded. people wrote songs long before there was any kind of recording technology. and even now, people write great songs and never record them. a song that hasn't been recorded is not unfinished or inferior to one that has

(in fact, some people even think that a song that has been recorded is a little inferior because it's been stripped of its vitality and frozen for all eternity)

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

>(in fact, some people even think that a song that has been
>recorded is a little inferior because it's been stripped of
>its vitality and frozen for all eternity)

really, that's deep Yoko. (for the record i didn't use the word "record" once, but whatever)

----------------------------
*far from a square, 'cuz i wreck when i tangle*
----------------------------
-J. Clyde Morris

----------------------------
*far from a square, 'cuz i wreck when i tangle*
----------------------------
*i pump bass 4 U bathing apes to get charged*
----------------------------
www.threekeys.com

you are most likely talking about a RECORD, not so?

sure, you can "produce" a live show, but you were actually talking about beats and lyrics, which are the components of a RECORD, n'est-ce pas?

_____________________

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

actually, i did mean produce as in performing (anything that brings what is on the written page to life)

----------------------------
*far from a square, 'cuz i wreck when i tangle*
----------------------------
-J. Clyde Morris

----------------------------
*far from a square, 'cuz i wreck when i tangle*
----------------------------
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as far as 'songwriting'. im not sure why exactly though.

for the most part

it's about RECORDS.

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

I think it does. Check out that "PE is to 80's music" post and see the comments on PE. Lyrics and writing have taken a back seat to production and hooks in todays hip-hop. Which I think adds to the orginal posters point. Production is over-rated. It applies to hip-hop/rap as well.

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subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You).
Ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be
worshipped except You). Astaghfiruka

>I think it does. Check out that "PE is to 80's music" post
>and see the comments on PE. Lyrics and writing have taken a
>back seat to production and hooks in todays hip-hop. Which I
>think adds to the orginal posters point. Production is
>over-rated. It applies to hip-hop/rap as well.

there should be a separate production post for hip hop though. hip hop and production are inseperable for the most part. im not sure if saying that hip hop production is to be blamed for the lack of songs in R&B or if we should say the hip hop notion of songwriting is to blame. a song liek crazy in love for example, is about two parts, and thats IT. the horn loop and the verse/go-go beat loop. theres nothing else to it!

>there should be a separate production post for hip hop
>though. hip hop and production are inseperable for the most
>part.

It depends on how you look at it. If you look at the hip-hop lyrics at poetry then yes they can exist without production to accompany them. But if you don't look at it like that then perhaps not.

>im not sure if saying that hip hop production is to be
>blamed for the lack of songs in R&B or if we should say the
>hip hop notion of songwriting is to blame. a song liek crazy
>in love for example, is about two parts, and thats IT. the
>horn loop and the verse/go-go beat loop. theres nothing else
>to it!

True, but that only goes to add the original point of the post. The production of the songs is at the forefront with the hook. Lyrics play backfield.

------------------------------------------------------------
subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You).
Ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be
worshipped except You). Astaghfiruka

There are only a few dope producers on the scene....When I say "on the scene" I don't mean all of the dope producers that live in your hood that have a copy of Acid or Reason and have ill beats. I mean ones that carry enough of a reputation as a producer to the mainstream to sell records 'cause their name is on it. Pharrell obviously has pimped this to the highest level, putting out songs that not only have terrible lyrics, but horrible singing as well...and still blowing up because he (and his invisible counterpart) produced the song.

On the flip side of this, there have always been artists who can't write...and artists that couldn't really sing/perform and even with a dope producer, the sound might be good, but the material doesn't hold up over time (can't be performed live, sounds dated after a while, after a while people noticed the lyrics suck)

It's the true combination of both that makes the difference...

Honestly, I think that focusing more on the producer (like the reggae industry sort of does with riddims) highlights how many artists really suck. (See Mary J Blige's no more drama album....where the production was quite nice in my opinion and the songs sucked).

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I'm a Capricorn, so don't take me personal, but take me serious.

Why do we call each other nigger? - Me

If you are going through hell, keep going" - Winston Churchill

Just my $.02...you can keep
the change.

Ple

nelson george wrote that the art of songwriting started to die out in the late 70s when technology started receiving top billing in studios, especially in relation to black music. maybe he was right........ i mean, timbaland is incredibly innovative, the way he EQs ALL his productions so exactly, and the way his programming is so unmistakably his, but would 'try again' or 'cry me a river' sound good alone on a piano? (well apparently beck has been playing it but i have no idea how it comes off)

that i admired a lot of those early Britney Spears/N Sync/Backstreet Boys songs that Max Martin did... say what you will about the production, but those are solid SONGS

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what do you mean by songs?

------------------------------------------------------------
subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You).
Ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be
worshipped except You). Astaghfiruka

minus the "record" with the cheesy production and bad singing

what i'm to say is that if you picked up your acoustic guitar or sat at th piano and played "hit me baby one more time" or "i want it that way" or "i'll never break your heart," you'll find that they are actually good songs

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

I don't know those song off hand but I get your point.
It's interesting though. Cuz based off of what you're saying the production actually messed up essentially good songs.

------------------------------------------------------------
subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You).
Ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be
worshipped except You). Astaghfiruka

>what i'm to say is that if you picked up your acoustic
>guitar or sat at th piano and played "hit me baby one more
>time" or "i want it that way" or "i'll never break your
>heart," you'll find that they are actually good songs

they'd be repetitive. flashy production masks repetitive songwriting techniques, which is deliberate. ultra-pop songs need to be sufficiently repetitive to become brands and icons...instead of words and melody.

that's why many of those have condensed verses and a dance-break instead of a bridge or middle eight. need to make room for the next name-brand hook.

i'm not saying they aren't harmonically interesting. the best pop songs usually do quite remarkable things with melody and harmony. but they use them kind of like a derivative artist might paint a dripping clock or make a huge latex bathtub and deflate it. you want people to RECOGNIZE harmonic, melodic, or rhythmic interest. but you don't want to develop it, or the listener would have to keep paying attention.

since the rise of hiphop and it's total penetration of pop, that awesome potential for translation (covers, stripped-down versions, etc.) has kind of disappeared.

alek
____________________________
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What? What?

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What? What?

>that i admired a lot of those early Britney Spears/N
>Sync/Backstreet Boys songs that Max Martin did... say what
>you will about the production, but those are solid SONGS

co-sign. id probably put the neptunes in the same bag as timbaland to be honest, with a few more exceptions though.

I think Tim has surrounded himself with good writers particularly from a melodic standpoint. Static is THE MAN!! Missy is also a good writer when she ain't on some "pussy don't fail me now" type ish. I also think that as producer he helps to shape and guide the melody to make his songs standout. No doubt about it, "Cry Me A River" can definitely be stripped down, piano or guitar.

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allows always put yourself
in the other person's shoes
before making any judgement--
and even then know that your
conclusion is merely an opinion"

Jesus said to them, "...
when you make male and
female into a single one, so
that the male will not be
male nor the female be
female...then you will enter
the kingdom."
Gospel of Thomas 22b

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as do missys songwriting attempts in general IMHO. the melody is paper thin at best. static is a lyricist to my knowledge, but the problem is that even if he does make up those melodies, theres nothing for him to pin them to. its just a beat, nothing else. the beat itself is static so it cant really go anywhere.

>I think Tim has surrounded himself with good writers
>particularly from a melodic standpoint. Static is THE MAN!!
>Missy is also a good writer when she ain't on some "pussy
>don't fail me now" type ish. I also think that as producer
>he helps to shape and guide the melody to make his songs
>standout. No doubt about it, "Cry Me A River" can definitely
>be stripped down, piano or guitar.

i thought i worked backwards when in fact everyone else is working backwards...write the song first and the put the music to it. yet another thing rap has turned wrong in music becuz in hip-hop, you usually write to the beat...but somewhere along the line...r&b started following that trend...and then mainstream rock.rap started to follow...and now everyone's fucked up. i agree, write a good damn song first and then complete the shit. cuz when you write to the beat...you just try to flow over it nicely and that limits what you can say and that's why so many artists talk about nothing.

When you say "write the song first" do you mean write the lyrics? I mean yeah in rap the lyrics are all important, but in other genres the melody is the important thing. Who gives a shit about rock lyrics?

So do you mean write the lyrics and then worry about the melody? Or are you just talking about "beat" music.

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Why do you choose to mimic these wack MCs?
Why do you choose to listen to R&B?

"There are obviously many things which we do not understand, and may never be able to." Leela

*puts emceeing in a box*

writing the melody is part of writing the lyrics. i just don't think you should keep yourself restricted by a beat...get the melody...work the lyrics and then put the music to it. when you hear the beat...you're liable to just say any stupid shit to make a hit, cuz nowadays the beat is all that counts.

>writing the melody is part of writing the lyrics.

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you have to have a melody to the lyrics...todays modern r&b does not becuz they just get a looped hip-hop beat and fit something in. a melody limits what you can say, but gives you more room to work with than a damn loop. the melody should come from the lyrics...not the music. once you write the lyrics into a melody then you enhance it by adding music.

the reason so many melodies in R&B are so weak today is because they are written from the lyrics. that's why you get this very popular 2- or 3-note stutter-step "melody" (think Destiny Child's "say my name") that all these young artists employ

i think when you conceive the melody independently, you have a better chance to come up with something catchy and fresh and (most importantly) musical than trying to fit notes onto words you've already written.

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i was about to point out that he was assuming (wrongly) that the lyrics IS the song.

some people feel that a song is a certain balance between music and lyrics working together and I think there's currency to that idea, but in my experience, I've found that the song is really the melody and the changes… lyrics are often an afterthought

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i agree with that too...but i'm a writer first so i write and then work into a melody or a rhythm. i read an interview with lennon and he said he would usually come up with a good line and then just sing it in the first melody that came to his mind. of course we're no John Lennons and he and Paul by far had the best good melodies ever. i guess everyone works a little different though.

some people write the lyrics first and then come up with a melody

most people write the melody first and then come up with the lyrics (like Paul McCartney and the famous story of how the melody for "yesterday" came to him in a dream, but he couldn't come up with any lyrics for the longest time, so he would sing it as "scrambled eggs… baby, how I just love your legs")

but even when you conceive the lyrics and melody at the same time, I think it's necessary to note that they are (for the most part) two different processes

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

well, i guess the problem is people today just don't give a fuck about music...either that or artists are dumb. good lyrics are hard to find nowadays..and i guess we can't blame that on production. but i still believe when you have producer A bringing a beat to songwriter B so artist C can sing the final song...you're just not gonna get the same quality of good music as in the 60s & 70s. the problem is artists are not artists...they are entertainers. no one writes anymore.

technically music or songs are melody, harmony and ryhthm. My experience is that you can develop a good song by starting at any point. For instance, a person may hum a nice melody line to themselves. From that melody that may derive lyrics that follow the melody line. Then rythm and harmony parts etc.

Likewise I could bang out a nice rythm on a table and begin to mumble out melodies to coincide etc. From there lyrics and so on.

I don't think melody begets the song. I would agree that it plays a definitive roll in the overall song. But as a technicality it doesn't drive the songwriting process.

------------------------------------------------------------
subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You).
Ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be
worshipped except You). Astaghfiruka

without a melody (or at least an implied melody in the chords) is it really a song?

or is it just a jam?

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they all have to be there in some fashion. All 3 aspects work together. So yeah I guess a dope drum beat and funky bassline = a jam..lol

Although, I still don't think melody begets the song. As in, the song is born of the melody. I think a song can have it's orgin in any of those 3 areas that I mentioned. But I do agree Melody is definitive in the overall song. Hell, depending on who you talk to ryhthm may be the definitive factor. I'm big on rythm myself. I'd take a nice "jam" over a week melody driven song any day. But I guess that's a poor example.

------------------------------------------------------------
subhaanakallahumma (Glory be to you, Oh Allah), wabihamdika (and I praise You).
Ashhadu anla ilaha illa anta (I bear witness that none has the right to be
worshipped except You). Astaghfiruka

>i was about to point out that he was assuming (wrongly) that
>the lyrics IS the song.
>
>some people feel that a song is a certain balance between
>music and lyrics working together and I think there's
>currency to that idea, but in my experience, I've found that
>the song is really the melody and the changes… lyrics are
>often an afterthought

i dont mean you have to be dylan or someone, but the melody could be the most beautiful thing in the world but if the words dont resonate/arent believable/dont fit into the structure/arent related well phonetically, i dont think people will care. as you doubtlessly know, that was the reason for artists having writers to specifically pen the words. sometimes i wish they still did.

but at the same time, what is it that makes a song a hit and an enduring classic ALL OVER THE WORLD, even in places that don't speak the language of the song?

why were non-English-speaking Japanese youth crazy about Beatles songs?

why do I love the songs of Caetano Veloso and Gilberto Gil even though I don't speak Portuguese?

it's not the lyrics…. well, not the MEANING of the lyrics, anyway. sometimes the sound of the words has a musical quality of its own. but a lot of young artsits miss this point by concentrating on the meaning of the words.

which is why they'll praise Mary's great lyrics on My Life…. they may be honest, but they're not "lyrical"… they're prosaic

and which is why I think A Band of Bees write some beautiful songs, even though 80% of the time I have no clue what they're going on about

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The man who thinks at 50 the same way he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life - Muhammed Ali

i don't understand how you can realize this with the beatles, but not in hip-hop. Do you think the reason why 50 cent is a world wide hit because of lyrics? Ofcorse not. It's because they like his beats which are the work of his producers. feel me?

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*far from a square, 'cuz i wreck when i tangle*
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-J. Clyde Morris

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*far from a square, 'cuz i wreck when i tangle*
----------------------------
*i pump bass 4 U bathing apes to get charged*
----------------------------
www.threekeys.com

this is a question that I've asked myself for years: "when non-English speakers listen to American hip-hop, do they even care about the MC?"

I know when I listen to non-English hip-hop, I don't… but I attribute that to the fact that most non-English hip-hop is (to various degrees and for various reasons) kinda wack

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when looking at popular hip-hop, you have a very small group a producers making tracks for and relatively large group of emcees. i've found myself enjoying songs by artists i wouldn't normally listen to because i like the producer. this is why i think that the producer can't possibly be overrated. A good beat can carry a wack emcee as easily(if not with more ease) than a talanted emcee can carry a song with a wack beat.

>I know when I listen to non-English hip-hop, I don't…
i feel u on that
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*far from a square, 'cuz i wreck when i tangle*
----------------------------
-J. Clyde Morris

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*far from a square, 'cuz i wreck when i tangle*
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