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Lobby Okay Activist Archives topic #502

Subject: "point by point" This topic is locked.
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k_orr
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80197 posts
Sun Jul-11-04 07:53 AM

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146. "point by point"
In response to In response to 142


  

          

>Thanks for your comments.
>
>>You can put all of the money into elementary and secondary
>>schools that you want, but if people don't have the kind of
>>family values that place an emphasis on discipline and
>>education, it won't do any good.
>
>"This above, is not an easy thing to say.
>
>I'll leave it at that."
>
>Well, the idea of more funding for schools is important, but
>when there is a situation where the young people just plain
>don't know how to act,

I just don't want to address this assertion in this post.

> I just think that there are
>things we can learn from those parents and educators that
>were themselves educated *in the Caribbean*.

1. Are you Caribbean?
2. Are you an educator?

Honestly, I don't think there is much to learn, that is replicable here.

In essence
- believe in your children
- raise the expectations
- make the curriculum more rigorous

That's what you can do on the school end.

But in Afrika and the Caribbean, you've got an entire culture, where this is the norm. Respect for teachers. Everyone is trying to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer...or the children don't see this as impossible for a black person to be those things, because that is the norm in those countries. (we wont' mention private schools, corporal punishment, or the class issues in those countries)

>The significant point is that these adults are the
>benificiaries of a system of education that is not operating
>on the basic assumption (or at least the strong suspicion)
>of black inferiority.

Well yeah, but they weren't born here either.
They aren't Americans.

> Maybe it is true that the knowledge is not transferrable
>from the West Indian Immigrant context to the broader
>African American context--but at this point, it's all
>conjecture. I'm just saying that it is worth looking
>into--some studies should be done, and experts on that
>educational system should be consulted, in my opinion.

Folks have been doing that.

Here's something from the UK
http://www.bopcris.ac.uk/bop1974/ref4424.html

In the UK, w.i. children raised by W.I. parents statistically underachieve.


>Maybe there could be a study-abroad program where African
>American student teachers would go to teachers' colleges in
>the Carribean, where they would study the Carribean system.

Are you suggesting that the Caribbean schools have diff techniques for teaching reading, writing, and arithmetic that would work better for black children?

>All of the comments you make about the problems that some
>parents have with helping their kids with homework are well
>taken. However, I think that there is still a significant
>problem with some kids not really coming to school with the
>kind of attitude that will give them a chance at success.

Those are really 2 issues, that are interdependent.

> However, black people's issues with this
>are much more complex, in my view, because for some of our
>people, the notion of 'blackness' itself is placed in
>opposition to the idea of being an educated person. This
>is where the tie-in with the history of slavery in the US
>occurs.

Maybe.

>I'm saying that, all other things being equal, *our* kids
>should have the advantage over the children of foreign-born
>blacks, in terms of their ability to gain admission to
>prestigious US schools through competetive admissions.

That's what they were saying, but it's not what we're really talking about.

In essence, they're making an affirmative action claim.
Aff Action is meant to remedy abuse of Black Americans.

We're discussing why are there so many black folks who haven't been here as long, and what those parents are doing to make their children succeed in the American school system.


>The fact that 2/3 of these students have foreign-born
>parents (or are biracial) is significant, because these
>blacks form a relatively small proportion of the 30 million
>blacks in this country--the overwhelming majority of US
>blacks have parents who are native-born.

I gotta throw this in again. A lot of American Born Blacks that are achieving academically, think HBCU's are better than Ivy's. So a dearth of Af Am's at these "prestigious" institutions, is not really the cause for alarm that people make it out to be.

Now it's up to you to decide if these black folks are making a mistake by going to an HBCU vs a PWI.

>Its not even like
>we're talking 50-50 in terms of population--it is much more
>lopsided than that. I am going to speculate for a moment and
>say that if a broader study were to be done, you might
>well see similar results at many other prestigious
>institutions across the country.

It will be a detailed study because the college choices aren't as simple as go to school based on SAT score and program.

>"The fact that Lincoln is @ Princeton, might over look the
>fact that Mikey, Bunny, and Desmond are still on the block."
>
>I am not suggesting that all West Indians are at Harvard or
>in the Ivy League. I am simply saying that these results
>would not look like this if native-born AAs were taking
>better overall advantage of their educational opportunities.

possibly.

> Hell, even if you exclude the poorer AAs who are more
>likely to come from low-performing schools (not that I
>advocate ignoring them), there are more than enough
>*middle-class* blacks in this country to preclude a result
>like this.

Enter the HBCU.

>In closing, I say: 'Bravo' to the Caribbean folks and
>Africans--but in the same breath, I say to native-born AAs
>'Why in the hell can't we compete more effectively? We are
>the vast majority of the black population in this country,
>and we should be at these institutions in much greater
>numbers!'

yeah.


>Bottom line--we have to do much, much better than we have
>been doing, in terms of preparing our kids to compete in the
>educational arena.
>
>BTW, it sounds as though you might be a teacher yourself.
>If so, much respect to you for being down 'in the trenches'
>on this issue.

I'm not, my mother is.
I've just tutored.

> I can definitely say that the low pay that teachers receive
>in the US is a crime, and is one of the major contributing
>factors to underachievement among US students in general.

Actually, I don't know about that either.

Teacher pay would have to increase from avg of 20-30 to start, to 60-80 to start to change the folks becoming teachers.

one
k. orr

http://breddanansi.tumblr.com/

  

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Cosby [View all] , rogue_scholar, Thu Jul-01-04 03:43 PM
 
Subject Author Message Date ID
I'm with Cosby on some things
Jul 01st 2004
1
yeah i agree
Jul 02nd 2004
9
      and to add to that
Jul 02nd 2004
10
      This is my issue
Jul 02nd 2004
16
      RE: This is my issue
Jul 02nd 2004
54
      RE: and to add to that
Jul 30th 2004
157
      Hold on.
Jul 02nd 2004
27
           im sorry i just cant believe that
Jul 02nd 2004
35
                RE: im sorry i just cant believe that
Jul 02nd 2004
46
                     the goals have not been accomplished
Jul 07th 2004
103
As the ivyleaguenegro..........
Jul 01st 2004
2
oh this is going right in my sig...
Jul 01st 2004
3
jesse
Jul 02nd 2004
11
Cosby was 100% on point...
Jul 01st 2004
4
RE: Cosby was 100% on point...
Jul 02nd 2004
12
      RE: Cosby was 100% on point...
Jul 02nd 2004
13
      RE: Cosby was 100% on point...
ATLsSoulSista
Jul 09th 2004
138
CLOUT WITH OPPORTUNITY............
Jul 01st 2004
5
this is a lot better crafted than his last one
Jul 01st 2004
6
on my blog:
Jul 02nd 2004
7
The first one at Morehouse was the best. n/m
Jul 02nd 2004
8
I have to wonder about white folks
Jul 02nd 2004
14
RE: I have to wonder about white folks
Jul 02nd 2004
41
      yeah. pretty much.
Jul 02nd 2004
53
      the "white news" as you call it
Jul 07th 2004
105
      white girl here
Jul 21st 2004
147
Put his solution where his mouth is?
Jul 02nd 2004
15
CORRUPTION................
Jul 02nd 2004
19
I forgot to add HIV/AIDS
Jul 02nd 2004
20
      dont even get on AIDS
Jul 02nd 2004
23
           RE: dont even get on AIDS
Jul 02nd 2004
33
i disagree infinity percent
Jul 02nd 2004
22
      RE: i disagree infinity percent
Jul 02nd 2004
25
      WORD
Jul 02nd 2004
30
      Of course you do :-)
Jul 02nd 2004
29
      RE: Of course you do :-)
Jul 02nd 2004
36
           Ha!
Jul 02nd 2004
38
           RE: Of course you do :-)
Jul 28th 2004
149
      70'S
Jul 02nd 2004
45
      HOLY SHIT!!!
Jul 02nd 2004
55
      RE: HOLY SHIT!!!
Jul 02nd 2004
58
           *scratching head*
Jul 02nd 2004
63
                uhm... that was intended for suave_bro. sorry.
Jul 02nd 2004
68
      CO-SIGN WITH WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT THE MUSIC
Jul 09th 2004
140
hes comments are kinda funny
Jul 02nd 2004
17
Hip Hop
Jul 02nd 2004
18
Art is just a reflection
Jul 02nd 2004
21
Exactly
Jul 02nd 2004
24
Just look at the recording industry
Jul 02nd 2004
32
      See #31 n/m
Jul 02nd 2004
34
           please your #31 didnt answer shit
Jul 02nd 2004
37
           Please
Jul 02nd 2004
39
           You just laid out a decade of American history
Jul 02nd 2004
40
                Not American history
Jul 02nd 2004
42
                Hip Hop history is a segment in American history
Jul 02nd 2004
47
                     RE: Hip Hop history is a segment in American history
Jul 02nd 2004
80
                          Oh really
Jul 03rd 2004
89
                               I'm here for the dialogue
Jul 03rd 2004
91
                Trust me, Nettrice.
Jul 02nd 2004
43
RE: Hip Hop
Jul 02nd 2004
28
      Repeat: Hip-Hop Timeline
Jul 02nd 2004
31
      It's funny how you get pissed for no reason....
Jul 02nd 2004
44
           RE: It's funny how you get pissed for no reason....
Jul 02nd 2004
48
                I'm gonna stay calm
Jul 02nd 2004
49
                     One more thing...
Jul 02nd 2004
50
                          I think that the point Suave is making is that....
Jul 02nd 2004
52
                               RE: I think that the point Suave is making is that....
Jul 02nd 2004
56
                                    I read your posts...
Jul 02nd 2004
59
                                         This debate...
Jul 02nd 2004
60
                                              this is what pisses me off...
Jul 02nd 2004
64
                                                   I agree with this
Jul 02nd 2004
66
                                                   I completely agree
Jul 07th 2004
104
                                                        cant blame the industry
Jul 07th 2004
107
7-8 YEAR OLDS
Jul 02nd 2004
26
RE: Cosby
Jul 02nd 2004
51
All the noise generated by his comments
Jul 02nd 2004
57
If you're not with Bill then you're part of the problem
Jul 02nd 2004
61
Bill Cosby Still Bitching
Jul 02nd 2004
62
Why don't you and your negro friend build a school
Jul 02nd 2004
65
RESPONSE
Jul 02nd 2004
69
      Back At you X. As you avoid my question..
Jul 02nd 2004
82
why are u even still alive?
Jul 02nd 2004
67
blame the liberals/democrats
Jul 02nd 2004
70
      calm your fake bobby seale ass down.
Jul 02nd 2004
71
           Bizarro world Argument!!!
Jul 02nd 2004
72
           WHAT SOLUTION
Jul 02nd 2004
73
           this nigga
Jul 02nd 2004
75
                Cosign!
Jul 02nd 2004
84
                2 funny
Jul 02nd 2004
87
           SPEAKING OF CONSPIRACY THEORIES
Jul 02nd 2004
88
completely agree
Jul 07th 2004
106
no humility no solutions
Jul 02nd 2004
74
yall have GOT to shut the fuck up
Jul 02nd 2004
76
ok and what about the humility
Jul 02nd 2004
77
sugar coat it!?
Jul 02nd 2004
86
      RE: sugar coat it!?
Jul 03rd 2004
90
           u cant be serious with this bullshit...
Jul 03rd 2004
93
                dead serious
Jul 04th 2004
95
                RE: dead serious
Jul 04th 2004
97
                RE: u cant be serious with this bullshit...
Jul 04th 2004
98
suave bro...
Jul 02nd 2004
79
      your 5 dollar insults dont mean shit
Jul 02nd 2004
85
      I feel you
Jul 04th 2004
96
are you a slave or what?
Jul 07th 2004
112
RE: Cosby
the_therapist
Jul 02nd 2004
78
I agree with Bill 100%
Femi_Omojigijigiosetuatobalehinibode
Jul 02nd 2004
81
so do i.
Jul 03rd 2004
92
but when I hear about Cosby..
Jul 02nd 2004
83
What have McWhorter & Sowell done for Blacks?
Jul 05th 2004
99
      Whoa...
Jul 05th 2004
100
      no he doesn't.
Jul 07th 2004
110
           Umm...
Jul 07th 2004
111
           The Idealogue of Latter day conservative thought......
Jul 07th 2004
117
           You've got to be joking me.
Jul 08th 2004
124
                Modern - Day - Ideologue
Jul 08th 2004
128
                     but you're assuming...
Jul 09th 2004
132
                          Weak - At Best
Jul 09th 2004
135
                               ha.
Jul 10th 2004
143
                                    RE: ha.
Jul 10th 2004
144
           RE: Umm...
Jul 08th 2004
123
                You're missing my point...
Jul 08th 2004
125
                     No I didn't.
Jul 09th 2004
131
                          Oh brother....
Jul 09th 2004
139
                               Well said...
Jul 28th 2004
152
           Actually Expertise..........
Jul 07th 2004
115
                once again...
Jul 08th 2004
122
                     Please
Jul 08th 2004
129
                          RE: Please
Jul 09th 2004
133
                               *shakes head*
Jul 09th 2004
136
      What have you done?
Jul 07th 2004
109
           Please/Read My Sig File
Jul 07th 2004
116
                I didn't duck anything.
Jul 07th 2004
121
                     *Searches in Vain for a Cogent Statement*
Jul 08th 2004
127
                          You're not talking about context.
Jul 09th 2004
134
                               Weaker than before......
Jul 09th 2004
137
FUTURE IMPACT..............
Jul 03rd 2004
94
Cosbys needs to eat a puddin pop and shut the fuck up
Jul 05th 2004
101
RE: Cosby
JahBrown
Jul 06th 2004
102
the one thing I noticed about Bill's comments is
Jul 07th 2004
108
Well....
Jul 07th 2004
113
      RE: Well....
Jul 07th 2004
114
      RE: Well....
Jul 07th 2004
118
           RE: Well....
Jul 07th 2004
119
                Hey...
Jul 07th 2004
120
                     likewise my man
Jul 08th 2004
130
      great post, some comments
Jul 09th 2004
141
           Hello...
Jul 10th 2004
142
               
                     Ummm
Jul 28th 2004
150
                          Some thoughts
Jul 29th 2004
153
                               RE: Some thoughts
Jul 29th 2004
154
                                    RE: Some thoughts
Jul 30th 2004
155
                                         RE: Some thoughts
Jul 30th 2004
156
                                              I certainly agree
Jul 30th 2004
158
                                                   RE: I certainly agree
Jul 30th 2004
159
                                                        You've dun it
Jul 31st 2004
160
RE: Cosby
Jul 08th 2004
126
RE: Cosby
Jul 10th 2004
145
Bill should
Jul 28th 2004
148
And I co-sign that..
Jul 28th 2004
151

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