*sigh* where do i begin....there is just sooo much to this....

>I believe in the power of CHOICE. We can say 'oh but if I
>don't go, i might be court martialled', but in the grand
>scheme of things, nobody can MAKE u do something u are dead
>against. Suppose u had principles that u live by no matter
>what, and one of those principles was that it is UNJUST to
>take a life, it is unjust to threaten someone's life or to
>attack a person who did nothing to *you*, u could then
>*choose* to absolutely stand against that bullshit. I would
>rather be punished for doing something I know in my heart is
>right, than have to sleep at night knowing there is blood on
>my hands.

yeah...but then if you're that kind of person, you're also probably the type who'd never sign up for the military. or think some things out before you went into the rotc in high school.

to use that example, most ppl i know who went the rotc route ONLY did it because they knew there wasn't much else in the option of furthering their education otherwise. not 'cause they were in love with america.

if you're already forced to work/help out your fam in high school, you may not have time to fill out/search for grant/scholarship applications etc. guidance counselors are usually only a help in the best high schools, and if no one else in your fam has even seen the inside of a college classroom....

it ain't easy getting "ahead" here...not for rural and/or poor urban kids.


>If we really had convictions in the matter of humanity, the
>threat of being courtmartialled wouldnt mean shit because
>honestly, there is nothing in the world I can think of that
>would make me go and fight and kill in the name of Western
>global domination. Absolutely nothing in this world. I'd be a
>conscientious objector.

i understand what you're saying. but that things like "western global domination" are indicative of a mentality that most americans never even recognize as being a factor.

they think: i need to provide for my family. i need to do something with my life other than rot away in this small town/blighted city. and that's it.

most of these kids didn't go into the military thinking about killing. it was about a job, getting to see the world on unc sam's dime, and maybe making a life for themselves afterwards. boot camp was just a bump in the road.


>I mean what good are 'benefits' (which mean *nothing* in the
>grand scheme of things) when you have had to go out and
>participate in a war...just so u can have these...perks?

when you live in a society with no universal healthcare and one medical emergency/death in the family can force you to declare bankruptcy (which, by the way, is getting harder to do)....

benefits are few and far between. even for the employed.

it's not even about "perks" so much as it is being able to eke out some kind of future.

we'd almost be better off doing something like sweden and/or israel and training EVERYONE in military service for a couple of years between 18-24 or so and then you can choose to continue or go about your life vs. making it some kind of economic entrapment/extortion racket. instead of forced conscription, we have a sort of socioeconomic draft. and always have. look at the history of the irish in the civil war. blks on the front line in vietnam. it's BEEN fucked up.


>u can't create peace and fulfillment if u had to play dirty to
>get it. u cant create love our of war. So I definitely don't
>glamorize or admire ppl who go to war either by choice or thru
>some notion of 'force'. I don't even think I could pat such a
>person on the back and be like 'good for you', when they did
>this so they could A) get to travel B) go to school, C) have a
>job D) have all 3. It actually makes me feel a bit sick to
>think someone would potentially go and kill innocent (or not
>so innocent) people for those reasons.

i can understand that.

but again, you'd have to understand something about the mentality that the military fosters in ppl. they break you down. literally.

you don't come out seeing (fill in the blank) as "innocent". whoever your c.o. says is the enemy is the enemy. questioning that could cost you and your unit your lives.

period.

99.9% of those who cannot conform to that standard are weeded out long before they reach anyone's battlefield.


>Of course, my heart lies with the innocents, not the
>warmongers...and in a global context, i tend to side with the
>people of color who are being oppressed, NOT the West and its
>need to dominate at all costs, but I feel you on this:

and i agree with you.


>*nodding* Yep. recruiters do lie, but again we have the power
>of choice. If a person chooses unwisely in such a way that
>they can be *duped* into fighting in an unjust war, I don't
>think the blame should be solely or even MOSTLY put on the
>admin. Surely ppl cant be that naive or easilyswayed.

ha. yeah i used to say the same...
americans are gullible because they're isolated.

we don't speak multiple languages
we don't travel.
"high culture" (art, good music, etc) is, generally, seen as academic and elitist.

we're the best. period. no need to go anywhere else.
these are the attitudes that, in the long run, make us so reluctant to open our eyes to what is before us.

it's sad and it's sick. but i haven't yet figured out (or come across someone who has) how we can heal from this except to (a) lose our position as a world power or (b) time (america is, historically speaking, a rowdy teenager)


>I mean I
>think a LOT of black folks fighting in this war now must have
>told themselves *something* to make it alright with
>themselves...some of them must believe what they are doing is
>a good thing...rahrah America and all that. That is their
>choice.

they're feeding their fam
they're not in prison
they're not hustling

i think that's what a lot of blk military tell themselves.

i know for a fact that my cousin and my godson's godfather went in because they didn't have anything else to do. college wasn't for them, they were just stagnating here...the military seemed a decent alternative.

fortunately, my cousin won't be going because of the highly specialized nature of his work here.

unfortunately, my godson's godfather is still over there. he's got a wife & two small children stuck in germany, alone, waiting for him to get back.


>Hmmm. I mean there are PLENTY o things a person can do with
>their lives so they can have A, B, C or D without choosing
>THIS fuckedup option. If this is the best possible thing folks
>can come up with to create a life with prospects, its a very
>messed up society we live in. My babies will not be fighting
>for white power. Believe that.

mine either.
and it is messed up.


>i feel u tho. I guess we have to at least TRY to be
>compassionate to all parties, including the warmongers. I
>suppose they are just ordinary ppl trying to get ahead. Its
>just...at whose expense will they get ahead?

yeah...it's fucked up.

my father is a vietnam vet who basically went into the military to escape a fucked up home situation. came back with more mental & physical issues than u can shake a stick at.

my maternal grandfather went in with the hopes of showing the "whitefolks" that blk men could defend their country and wound up spending the war stuck in guam.

it's really fucked up.


~~~~
~*~40 yrs. 6 days.~*~

"The world was warned about this...The CIA calls what happened in London today "blowback." It is wrong, it is heinous, it is murder plain and simple, and it was as predictable as the sun rising in the East." ~Wm Rivers Pitt