>to use that example, most ppl i know who went the rotc route
>ONLY did it because they knew there wasn't much else in the
>option of furthering their education otherwise. not 'cause
>they were in love with america.

*nods* I'm sure thats the case. I'm just sayin as well as those who say they are doing this to further their education (and there is *nothing* noble about that imho), there are also those who really ARE in love with america and what it stands for. *shrugs*

>if you're already forced to work/help out your fam in high
>school, you may not have time to fill out/search for
>grant/scholarship applications etc. guidance counselors are
>usually only a help in the best high schools, and if no one
>else in your fam has even seen the inside of a college
>classroom....
>
>it ain't easy getting "ahead" here...not for rural and/or poor
>urban kids.

I understand. The fact is...life is hard and painful. we must still make choices tho. either empowering ones or disempowering ones. and messed up as society is, its not SO restricted that we dont have any other option besides signing up to be a willing participant in an unjust war.

>i understand what you're saying. but that things like "western
>global domination" are indicative of a mentality that most
>americans never even recognize as being a factor.

this is true. very unfortunate. It was really shocking when it seemed that 9/11 was the first time a lotta Americans had really thought about all of this. its a complex issue. ur definitely right about that.

>most of these kids didn't go into the military thinking about
>killing. it was about a job, getting to see the world on unc
>sam's dime, and maybe making a life for themselves afterwards.
>boot camp was just a bump in the road.

Its amazing to think ppl who consider themselves fairly smart could sign up to participate in a war and never once *think* that its about killing. I'm hearing what ur saying here...the perspective of the young person who signs up for this...and while I can imagine the hopelessness/despair ppl might feel and the desire to broaden their career prospects, i think its actually making a good case for why the onus SHOULD be on the troops and not the govt.

>it's not even about "perks" so much as it is being able to eke
>out some kind of future.

a future because of eduction, money, being able to travel? at the expense of the future/life of that person they have just invaded? that sounds incredibly fucked up to me. It comes back to the very distrubing notion that a Western life is 10 times more valuable than non-western one. If an American or Englishman dies we should all cry and curse that day. If a rwandan or cambodian or peruvian dies...ho hum, pass the butter.

>we'd almost be better off doing something like sweden and/or
>israel and training EVERYONE in military service for a couple
>of years between 18-24 or so and then you can choose to
>continue or go about your life vs. making it some kind of
>economic entrapment/extortion racket.

that could be a good idea *thumbs up*. I think the real solution tho is NOT to advocate war in the first place. The govt could employ a very charming and charismatic speaker to sell the idea of joining the military. then that young person might choose based on a lie or manipulation. I'd rather they watch full metal jacket or suhm and actually attend lectures on globalization, war, imperialism and how the West came into power...and THEN decide what they wanna do.

>instead of forced
>conscription, we have a sort of socioeconomic draft. and
>always have. look at the history of the irish in the civil
>war. blks on the front line in vietnam. it's BEEN fucked up.

EXACTLY!

>but again, you'd have to understand something about the
>mentality that the military fosters in ppl. they break you
>down. literally.

I hear u. so tell me. would u allow urself to be broken down Lex? to the point where u will sign up for something KNOWING its morally wrong/unjust? Could u be manipulated or schooled in such a way that ur future will then be in the hands of the government?

my sense is that NO u wouldnt allow that to be the case. I will speak for myself and say I really don't think i can be broken down with any such mentality. And im no more different or special or strongwilled than anybody else. I'm not gonna condemn them but im not gonna make any excuses for the troops either...if they have chosen this...okay. its their choice and im not ANTI them. i am ANTI war. if they decide to participate in that tho, they should own their decision and not pussyfoot around the issue by making out that they are SO hard done by that it was literally their ONLY option. we are dying. ppl are suffering and starving all over the world. ppl are being enslaved and orphaned every day. It is *they* who could say they have no options. Whereas, living in America or England in 2005...and signing up, saying its because u wanna travel or u want a degree and the military is therefore the ONLY option...hmmm ionno if im buyin that. feel me?

>99.9% of those who cannot conform to that standard are weeded
>out long before they reach anyone's battlefield.

lucky them!

>ha. yeah i used to say the same...
>americans are gullible because they're isolated.

>we don't speak multiple languages
>we don't travel.
>"high culture" (art, good music, etc) is, generally, seen as
>academic and elitist.

no arguments from me!

>we're the best. period. no need to go anywhere else.
>these are the attitudes that, in the long run, make us so
>reluctant to open our eyes to what is before us.
>
>it's sad and it's sick. but i haven't yet figured out (or come
>across someone who has) how we can heal from this except to
>(a) lose our position as a world power or (b) time (america
>is, historically speaking, a rowdy teenager)

I think America as a global superpower, exists for a reason. Afterall there must be some evil beast in the world otherwise how do we measure our conscience? Globalization has taught me that for me to experience pleasure...a nice material life, fresh nikes, nice gadgets...someone is prolly suffering. its an imbalanced world we live in. so I guess we have to create the balance in ourselves with the choices we make. Truthfully, I am cynical about the notion of there ever been a demonstration of balance in our external environment- where all lives are valued equally and there is no need for war cos we know better. I think realistically, all that will happen is the *United* States and *Great?*Britain will continue to thrive thru bullying, theft, warmongering, lies- whatever. Build and destroy and...unfortunately...*WE* will continue to help them do so.

>i know for a fact that my cousin and my godson's godfather
>went in because they didn't have anything else to do. college
>wasn't for them, they were just stagnating here...the military
>seemed a decent alternative.

are those REAL factors tho? or are they just limiting beliefs?
'i have nothing else to do'
'im black in America so im restricted'
'college is not for me'
'im too unskilled to do ____'
'we are stagnating here'
'the military is a decent alternative'

we must consider these things. if its not real, it should be thrown out. the onus is ON-US.

peace Sis.

I enjoyed building