>You can put all of the money into elementary and secondary
>schools that you want, but if people don't have the kind of
>family values that place an emphasis on discipline and
>education, it won't do any good.

This above, is not an easy thing to say.

I'll leave it at that.

>This debate about Cosby's remarks ties in with the post in
>GD about the children of foreign-born blacks attending
>Harvard and other elite institutions in higher numbers than
>the children of native-born blacks. The children of these
>foreign-born parents are not any less black than we are--so
>why are they so much more succcessful than we are in gaining
>access to these institutions?

Good question, but...

>I think that the reasons are
>cultural--and the difference can be seen in the strong
>emphasis on the value of education that is instilled in
>these children.

This is definitely true, however when you focus on harvard, you're focusing on the creme de la creme.

To really understand if Carribbean or Afrikan culture affects attitudes about learning, discipline, you need to look @ the elementary and secondary levels.

If you went to NY, how many Jamaicans, Trinis, and Haitians (or 1st generation children) are flunking out?

You can easily make the foreign born/children of immigrants argument for the model minority, our Asian peeps. But research (none of which I have in front of me), suggest that the model minority thing works well in 1) well to do/professional families, 2) 1st generation American born.

Once you get to the 2nd, 3rd and 4th generations (think California), the model minority falls apart.

>To be frank, I think that for starters, leaders from the
>native-born African-American community should consult with
>educators from the West Indies, as well as with educators
>and community leaders of the foreign-born blacks inside the
>U.S.

Well I can tell you from anecdotal experience that the best Jamaican education, is usually private. That the British system that carried over, is more rigorous than the American system.

How much of that culturally translates?

But most importantly, Black Teachers teaching black Students, expect the very best from all of them. Add to that, the fact that everyone in your community is black, the cops, the crooks, the doctors, the lawyers, the engineers, the businessmen - being smart, doing the right thing - is not a "white thing".

Taking it back to the US - where these things aren't present, When you look @ good performing low income/majority black and brown schools in the US, it's the same 2 things, 1) teacher effectiveness, 2) teacher expectations.

>They should start a dialogue about trying to institute
>some of the foreign blacks' emphasis on education amongst
>American blacks who are struggling with these issues. I
>understand that this would be a major, major undertaking in
>terms of implementation, but I think it would be a step in
>the right direction.

I actually think it's more than that.

Of course you gonna have that set of parents that don't believe their baby doesn't do anything wrong, and it's gotta be racism that's holding them back.....But that's the stereotype.

What's more common in our communities, is
- the parents don't know how to help their children with their homework.

I remember teaching this 5th grader how to multiply fractions.
Norman. Well Norman was relatively sharp, but they did "the new math" @ school. It took me more than a few minutes to pick up on it. (I actualy took it home that night to work on it, and i'm still not sure if I can do it) His mother on the other hand, could get the right answer, but she did it the old school way.

So imagine that scenario being played out 500 times @ his school, for 6-8 subjects.

And best believe Norman was black and Latino. And best believe that all the other folks at his school were poor, black, or latino.

Add in the fact that anyone with a degree can teach middle and high school in the State of Texas.

Now add in, George Bush and the whole High Stakes Test Taking is the way to go.

- the parents do not know what the standards should be.
What should a 9 year old be reading?
How do I know if my child is learning how to do word problems?

Unless your parents are teachers, chances are you're not gonna be able....

You really want to educate black children and latino children, and hell just poor children in general, it means more than some laws passed and more funding, it means an *entire* culture change.

It's more than just parents actively involved @ the school dance and in fundraising, but you often times need grown adults to sit in classes with their children, so when the teacher leaves, the parents can still teach the children @ home.

And the parents have to be able to chart and understand their child's educational process. It's not just send them off for a few years and they come back ready to go to college.

But first things first, parents have to be made aware of what all this means.

A lot of caring parents really just don't have a clue about education.

>Many of the issues that American black people have
>concerning the value of education stem from the particular
>history of slavery and its aftermath in this country. I
>think that blacks who espouse these borderline-hostile views
>toward education fail to realize that we are virtually the
>*only* people in this country that have these kinds of
>pitched battles over the fundamental value of education, and
>that this has to do with the uniqueness of our historical
>experience.

Well, that might be the perception, but it's also cause we dont' really pay attention to whites as a group.

There is a general distrust of academics and intellectual type stuff across the board in this country.

Even on activist, if a philosopher isn't out in the community getting people registered to vote, OKP wants them ex-communicated from the black community. "all he does is talk".."all they do is write papers"

And this is on OkayActivist, mind you.

Now look into the white community, and you'll find much the same sort of hatred.

Take their boys @ columbine.
These were the nerds and outcasts of the white world. (I think one of the kids had developmental problems or something), but white folks be hating on smart white kids on the regular.

The diff is, the smart white kids have enough support from one another, and from society in general, that they can make it past the silly world of public school. (you know this starts in the 1st grade)

>The success of foreign-born blacks in American educational
>institutions proves that these hang-ups are simply not
>shared by all blacks.

Well, yeah ummm maybe.

200 black kids @ harvard, 150 or so are Foreign Born, tells you nothing about the 30 million black folks in this country and the education that we receive.

The fact that Lincoln is @ Princeton, might over look the fact that Mikey, Bunny, and Desmond are still on the block.

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